Conference 7.286::home_work

    How about a BIG cat?

    If you would like to catch the squirrels, try the following.  The
    Havahart Trap Company sells traps in different sizes to accomodate
    animals from mice to raccoons.  I am not sure if traps are available
    in MA.  If not, the company is located in Lititz, PA  17543.
    
    
    Mark

	  One humane solution that I have is to use mothballs or flakes.
	Just sprinkle (or throw) some around the areas inside the house 
	that the squirrles frequent.  Peticulary around or inside their 
	openings.
	  After about a week or so you can close off the openings without
	fear of trapping the squirrles.  Rodents will not tolerate the 
	smell of mothballs.  You may also find the smell objectionable,
	however, it will gradually go away after a few months.

	******* CAUTION *******  - mothballs are poisonous !

				   Do not let your children or pets
				    eat or play with them.

	  The only other solution I have is to hire an exterminator.
	Squirrles are the most difficult to get rid of and the 
	most destructive house pests.  Whatever you do to get rid of them,
	repair the damage asap to keep them from comming back.
	
						Rich

    I also had squirrels as non-paying tenants in my house.  They had
    a branch reaching over to my porch roof for easy access.  My neighbor
    cut down the tree - no more squirrel problem.  Based on that
    experience, I'd check all overhead access routes to your house
    - the squirrels seem to lose interest if they have no protected
    path to the house.            

    RE: 3
    
    The mothball trick is also a handy way of keeping criters out
    ,if you have one, your camping trailer when stored over the
    winter.
    
    

    It also gets skunks out of woodpiles.
    
    Jim Pappas

    We put some in this barn adjacent to an apartment we once rented
    and it got rid of the wasps and hornets.
    
    -joet

    Be careful not to get the buggers trapped insiode the house.
    I tried to be smart, and pulled oout the soffet of my previous house;
    they ha had a nest there. The squirrell gotr out (but left her babies
    there), and I had already cut branches to prevent passage their.
    
    Well, on try number one, the mother squirrel trie to go through
    the house, in spite of the German Shwepherd who also live there.
    
    Well, after what_wshould_have _been_a_disney_like_episode, the squirrel
    left. Next thiong wew knew (after a few hours)|, she got back by
    going over the Electric wire to the house, got in, and to get her
    babies back out, gnawed a hole into the attic, and tried bringing
    her babies through the house. Anothe r dog episode.
    
    Just before selling thwe house, I covere the soffet, p[ainted, and
    played dumb ! I don't remember how it turned out, because there
    was other more significant problems in my life at that time.
    
    Bob
    
    

    for all you mothball advocates, heres an interesting story:
    
    My father has this big strawberry patch. One summer, he put mothballs
    throughout the patch to keep the squirrels out (it seems they love
    strawberries). Guess what the squirrels did (and I witnessed this)?
    The actually picked up the mothballs with their teeth and carried
    them outside the strawberry patch. 
    
    At the end of a week, we had a pile of mothballs and fewer
    strawberries.
    
    Just some food for thought 8^)
    
    Jim
    

    I tried moth balls in an attic once to get squirrels out. I think
    they used the moth balls to play some form of game- they rolled
    them all over the attic. So far as I could tell they did not find
    them at all annoying. Since I had a huge house and didnt really
    need the attic space I gave up the attic to the squirrels. Last
    I knew they were living happily in the attic.
    
    Good luck on getting them out!
    

    Yesterday, I set a hav-a-heart trap bated with peanut butter under my
open soffet (soffet removed during re-siding and not yet replaced) on
a make-shift rack.  This morning, one very dead critter on the deck below the
trap -- trap still set and baited!  

Anybody have any ideas on how to get rid of what we believe to be squirrels
    that have been visiting the insides of our walls every nights at
    3:00?
    
    It sounds like it is eating the wood, and is not at all scared by
    our banging the walls and screaming at it (although it did stop
    after I growled at it a few nights back).
    
    We cannot see where it gets in, although we keep looking. It's a
    big, old house, so there's probably lots of hidden places it gets
    in.
    
    Wil rat poison help? Could we hire someone to do the job?
    
    Help! We need our sleep!!
    
    Tim Horgan
    

sure its not field mice?  check out the anti-mice note in PARITY::CONSUMER

    I had the same problem last year. I finally found the the little
    #*@% had chewed a good size hole thur the wood, just under the roof.
    The first thing I did was to cut down the branch that they had been
    using near the house. Then I put about a dozen moth balls in the
    hole and waited a week before I repaired the hole. The moth balls
    seemed to do the trick. Just make sure they are not still in the
    walls when plug the hole. 
    
    Mark

    I have to vote for mothballs. We had a family of squirrels in the
    attic, and I wasn't inclined to spend big bucks for a Hav-a-hart
    trap (they are available in some hardware stores - I've seen them
    in all sizes at Moore's in Littleton). I had some experience with
    mothballs - we used to use them to get skunks out from under the
    porch (as a matter of fact, we used to spray liquid ammonia on the
    mothballs to enhance the "fragrance" - I'm not sure this is a good
    idea, because the fumes produced are really powerful). In any case,
    I got some regular motballs and spread them in the attic. The next
    day I watched a squirrel making a desparate 25' leap from a hole
    in our soffit. That was about 8 months ago, and they have never
    returned. We did smell the mothballs ourselves for a few days, but
    after that it was not noticeable. If they ever come back I'm definitely
    going to try this again.
    
    					-- Ram
    

    I recently was outside looking at my yard and I noticed patches
    of my lawn dug up (at least a couple hundred patches!).  I asked
    my neighbors and they said 'Oh yes, it's skunks looking for bugs
    under the sod".  I then remembered we had some animal living in
    a burrow in the stone wall around our yard where I found the patches
    of sod dug up and then realized it might well be a skunk. It must
    come out at night and forage around in my yard for bugs that's why
    I haven't seen it but it's most likely a skunk.

    I need to find a way to get rid of the skunk (humanely is preferable).
    My wife and I are afraid that someday my kids may run into the skunk
    and the skunk give them a spray.  Also, my garden is going in that
    section of the yard and I would prefer eating the vegetables that
    I grow and not give them to the skunk.
    
    Does anyone know of any animal sociey that could help me.  The
    Audubon Society is interested in birds only right? wrong?  I guess
    I could build a box trap without windows and a sliding door to
    catch him but this could be hazardous since I don't really now
    what I'm doing.  Any input greatly appreciated.
    
    Thanks in advance,
       
    Bob

    Are you sure it's *skunks*..???
    
    I noticed patches dug up on my lawn a few weeks ago..and then 
    discovered that it was squirrels. They were digging for any acorns
    that might have gotten buried. I know of quite a few people who
    have had the same thing happen this year. Must of been because of
    all the snow and then the deep freeze. I sure hope that your 
    problem isn't *skunks*...
    
    kath

    Well, as I mentioned before, I hadn't seen the little vermits but
    my neighbor's were pretty sure it was shunks because they had seen
    shunks around and then I remembered the large burrow in my stone
    wall.  I guess it's likely it could be squirrels.  There are no
    oak trees in my back yard so there shouldn't be any acorns, however
    I have seen many chestnuts laying around.  How could the acorns
    get under the sod?  I guess I'll have to try and catch them in the
    act of digging up my lawn so I'll now exactly whet kind of "vermit"
    it really is.  I really hope it isn't skunks either!
    
    Bob

    The acorns and chestnuts sink into the ground when the soil is wet
    from the melting snow. Also, the weight of the snow pushes them
    down into the soil. 
    
    I have seen the squirrels digging in places I now have little holes.
    However, skunks might well do the same things. (Skunks, too, are
    fond of nuts.)
    
    The Audobon society might be able to help you. I think they're
    interested in all wildlife, not just birds. The Humane Society is
    another good place to try; if they can't help you themselves, they
    usually know where you should go.

    I'll have to go along with your neighbor's theory, SKUNK.  I have
    seen one digging hole in my lawn about 11:00 pm or later.  The best
    way to get rid of them is to eliminate the grubs in your lawn. 
    I wish I could! Then the skunk will move to your neighbors lawn.
    
    God Luck
    

    	I have lots of holes and digs in my yard. They are from moles
    and ground mice. The holes look like tunnels. When the snow is on
    the ground, they will dig just under the sod looking for grubs.
    My cats are having a field day. You could have moles??. Skunks usually
    rip up the ground around stone walls and dead trees.
    
    

    Skunks are really pretty dumb critters. They'll go for anything
    that is a Free-bee. Check with the Humane Society, they have Catch-em
    alive traps they'll loan you or you can even rent one at a rental
    place. Load it with a strong smelling Chesse, you'll most likely
    get him the first or second night.
    
    Once you have him throw an old blanket, one you don't want any more,
    over the trap and take em away. Watch out though Skunks are one of 
    the WORST carrier of Rabies.
    Humane Society might even come get em, once caught.
    
    Sign, A Colorado Trapper
    
    PS. Leave em at the neighbors house :-)

    Well stink me out...
    
    Two suggestions:
    
    1.  Get rid of the grubs in your lawn -- chemicals available at
    the local nursery for this job.  Once you remove the attraction,
    you will most likely chase away the skunks.
    
    2.  Use moth balls -- skunks, cats, rabbits and many other small
    critters hate the aroma of the chemicals used in these things. 
    We have successfully fended off all critters from our garden with
    a single purchase for a whole growing season.
    
    Having two inquisitive canines and frequent visits from the stinky
    critters, I have learned a lot about how they work.  Skunks spray
    from hind end.  To spray, they put all their weight on their front
    paws, lift up their hind end and then let you have it.  Anything
    in the line of fire for up to 50 (fifty) feet is in danger when
    this occurs.  Tomato Juice bath or N-odor deodorant are very effective
    for getting rid of the stink (we keep six two-quart cans of tomato
    juice on the shelf ALWAYS).
    
    The live traps mentioned previously are the BEST way to get rid
    of the stinkers.  Make sure that you rent the low clearance variety
    to prevent the stinkers from stinking once they have been caught
    -- if they can't lift their hind end, they can't spray.
    
    BTW, skunks make fine house pets.  Once their stinker has been
    removed and they have been checked for rabies, they are trainable,
    affectionate and quite a conversation piece.
    
    Got skunked once -- haven't been the same since,
    
    Randy
    

    I'm sure it's not moles as .4 (I think it was) suggested, although that was
    my first thought also.  There are no tunnels that would indicate moles. 
    The sod is actually ripped up in patches.
    
    I think I'm going to rent one of those have-a-heart traps and set
    it out and see what I get.  I'll probably catch the neighbor's cat
    or something (maybe not so bad).  I really don't want to put chemicals
    on this area of the lawn to kill the grubs since I'm putting my garden
    in there, however, maybe I could get some organic stuff to do the job. The
    mothball idea sounds good.  Maybe I could throw a few into the burrow
    and maybe he'll find another home? Either that or he'll just drag'em
    out.
    
    Thanks for the input. I'll let you know what I catch!
                                  
    Bob 

    We've watched a skunk rout for grubs in our backyard. The sod was
    flying!
    
    I'm not sure how "dumb" the critters are.  A neighbor lost a bee
    hive over several evenings to a skunk which sat down in front of
    the hive, banged on the hive, waited for guard bees on night duty
    to investigate, lapped them up with no problem, then repeated the
    process.
    
    - Dave
    
                                                   

    re:-1       
    
    They are smart in their means of survival. Dumb in their fear of
    Humans. It is not hard to trap any animal, the only thing that deters
    wild animals from being caught is the smell of us humans, or something
    fishy in the enviorment which causes fear.
    
    Skunks for the most part don't care if human scent is around or
    not and will walk into most anything. They are not hunted or trapped
    much anymore and don't have the fear of humans as most other wild
    animals do. They have a very good defense which we always avoid 
    when possible adding to their confidence.
    
    Off the subjuect but:
    
    Did you know that Skunk coats use to be VERY popular and VERY high dollar
    items, much as Mink is today. Until the Goverment made Fur companys
    place a tag on their product stating the speices of the coat. Then
    they went off the market because the ladies did not wanted to wear a 
    Skunk coat.     
    
    Rambling on the history of the smelly one...
    
    Mark          

    My Uncle was trying to get rid of some racoons under his porch with
    a have-a-heart trap and got two skunks before he got the coons.
      
    My only additional info on transporting the skunks (the blanket
    is a must for covering the trap) is to take the stripped striper
    of sod at least 4 - 5 miles away and across a river or other body
    of water.  It is unbelievable how they can find their way home (?)
    
    good luck !!

    My dad used to catch and de-scent skunks for pets. He used peanut
    butter at the bait in the have-a-heart trap. They loved it.
    
    However, I thought they were pretty dumb animals as pets. And a
    little freaked out (easily scared).
    	Mez

      
    
    Other critters thast might be digging up your yard are racoons or
    musk rat. If you have water near by (anywhere within 1/2 mile) it
    could be one of them.  use the same have a heart trap on all of
    them. SPCA or humane society may ask for a small donation  to take
    the little varmints away. Depending on the town your local dog officer
    might do it for free.
    
      

    At various times in the past (typically just after the first freeze
    in fall) we had racoons dig up our lawn. We were afraid it was a
    skunk at first, but saw the rascal the second night. (The amount of
    damage a couple of racoons can do to a lawn in one night is
    phenomenal.)
    
    Our approach was to trap then in a live trap (Havahart or equivalent
    borrowed from the state) and transport them to the Lowell State
    Forest. 

    Skunks seem to be a creature of habit: when they start visiting your
    yard, they will come every night.  When they start visiting my yard,
    I sprinkle moth flakes around the perimeter of my yard.  Once or twice
    a year seems to do the trick.  I use flakes instead of moth balls
    because I have small children; the flakes sublime in a few days.

    Re: .15
    
    How effective are those flakes with dogs???  My lawn seems to be
    the neighborhood dumping ground {:-(  I like dogs.  I hate tip-toeing
    through my "lawn"!!
    
    Phil

    We had a family of shunks take up residence under our porch. We
    poured ammonia down through the slats (not on the shunks) and watched
    them leave. We boarded up the hole and put a cobble stone in front
    of it. They never came back. The cobble stone was removed after
    a couple of weeks. We used the stone to stop them from digging at
    that spot again. Any heavy object should work.
    
    Ed

    When I was growing up on the farm we had skunks under our porch
    and no one or animal was ever sprayed.  One year they were gone
    for six months and we had the biggest mice and rat problem you could
    never wish for.
    
    Occasionally the surplus population was taken out by a good sharp
    shooter out in the fields.  You got to kill it instently or you
    will regret it down wind for months.
    
    We also had a very big garden and they never disturbed it.  Guess
    we were just lucky.

    I don't have squirrels in my attic, but I do have chipmunks.  Would
    I get rid of them in the same manner?  Also, I have a tree branch
    overhanging my roof which is probably how they've gotten in.  Since
    they've (so far I've counted five) tunnelled throughout the insulation
    up there, how can I be reasonably assured that they're gone before
    cutting down the branch?

    
    RE: .13
    
    Borrow a hungry cat?
    

    most full grown squirrels can defeat the average cat
    

    RE: 15
    
    The problem is chipmunks not squirrels, thats why I suggested only
    one hungry cat.  Everybody knows it takes at least two hungry cats
    to get rid of squirrels. ;-)
    
    Phil
    
    P.S.
    Don't use dogs for this task.  They just can't tiptoe around those
    joists very well and will end up in your living room via the ceiling.
    :-)
    

    Thanks for the tip...
    
    Maybe I'll send my miniature dachshund up there.  He may do the
    trick as long as he doesn't go toe-to-toe with them.

    
    I also think that putting something like moth balls up there may
    cause the chipmunks to seek more aromatic environs.  Maybe you could
    also just wave the dog or cat around.  They'll pick up the scent
    and head for the exit.
    
    Phil

    Well, 2 boxes of mothballs and a hav-a-heart trap later, the chipmunks
    are gone (I think/hope).  Now comes the messy part:  it appears
    they were up there for many winters before we bought the place.
    There are mega-droppings and urine stains all over the place and
    I've recently uncovered some electrical wires they managed to chew
    through.  Now for my questions:
    
    	1.  With the onset of warmer and more humid weather, I'm sure
    it's going to stink to high heaven up there.  Any suggestions on
    how to curb or get rid of the smell altogether (I know the obvious
    answer is to clean it up, but with blown in insulation, and the
    tunnelling these critters did, I'm hoping for an easier solution)?
                                              
    	2.  What to do about the nibbled electrical wire?  
    
        3.  I have determined that the chipmunks got in through the
    roof vents and am getting ready to climb up on the roof and to cover
    them with wire screen.  For those of you who have tried this sort
    of thing before, will this do the trick?
                       
    Thanks,
    Peter
    
     
    
    
    
    

>        3.  I have determined that the chipmunks got in through the
>    roof vents and am getting ready to climb up on the roof and to cover
>    them with wire screen.  For those of you who have tried this sort
>    of thing before, will this do the trick?
                       
Stop by your local garden center and pick up a couple of plastic owls.  
It sounds silly, but if you hang one  near the vent it scares off the 
squirrels and chipmunks.  Apparently rodents are pre-programmed to 
recognize the shape of an owl and prefer to be someplace else.

In later years, no doubt archeologists will comment that people of the
20th century hung plastic owls from the eaves of their houses to ward off
evil spirits.  They won't be far wrong.

					>>>==>PStJTT

    My friend Bruce had flying squirrels in the space around his chimney.
    They used to come down and eat out of the bird feeder by his window.
    Being an inventive engineer-type, he thought of a clever, humane,
    (and free!) way to take care of the problem.
    
    He took some wire screen and made the bird feeder into a trap with
    a door.  Using a mouse trap with a spring, he rigged it up so the
    door would snap shut when he opened the window a tad (there was
    a string leading from the trap to the window).  Then he sat back
    in his chair to watch TV and listen for the squirrels.
    
    Presently they came by, and he quietly opened the window, and....
    VOILA!!!!   trapped squirrel.
    
    There were a few of them in there, and he kept them in a cage in
    the basement until he had 'em all.
    
    Then he brought them over to my house and let them go....
    
    .....I've been hearing this scratching in the walls lately......
    
    
    						Sue

    re. 22
    
    Probably looking for Bullwinkle!!
    
    :-)
    
    
    Mike
    

    
    Re: .19
    
    I would first get a shop vac and vacuum up all the dropping, etc.
    that you can.  You might even want to vacuum up some of the
    insulation also, and replace it (I think you could just stuff it
    in by hand if necessary).  Then you might try sprinkling baking
    soda around the area. It takes care of the smell and is non-toxic
    to humans (toxic to some bugs, though). 
    
    Not expert advice, just my common (2) sense.
    
    -tm

If you can vent the place well, with say a 24 inch fan, the heat this summer
will dry the sh!t to nothing.  Once it's dry, you won't have any problems with
it smelling, or being any other type of hazard.  Of course if you get a serious
break in your roof, if a tree drops on it, you may have a problem, but then you
have a problem anyway.

JMB 

Anybody have suggestions for keeping cats from climbing up and underneath
my carport?  They climb up on my car, then jump up on the beams under my 
carport. They are doing a number on my car (mud, hair, scratches, etc...).

Thanks for any help.

    
    
      Get a dog that eats cats.. Or invite ALF over for dinner.

re .2  A dog that eats cats can't be awake all the time, nor can it
chase the cats up onto the beams of your carport.  Although if it
tried, you'd *really* have something to complain about the next morning.

The suggestions in .1 sound good.  Here's one more - if the cats can't
jump from your car to the beam, they probably won't go on your car.
Would a roof on the bottom of the beams above your car be an option?
It needn't be fancy, eg thin plywood nailed to the bottoms of the beams,
or just the part over the roof of your car might be enough.

    put some carpet tape on the beams after one or two trys they will
    lose interest.

Try stapling some screening materials between the beams AND cover
your car for a few days after you staple up the screening. They
learn like a 2 year old.

cal

	Instead of buying cat repellent, try ammonia or vinegar on the beam.

    
    	re .6	If you use ammonia to repel or clean up after a cat,
    		you are in for some fun. Cat spray contains ammonia
    		and it *attracts* cats.
    
    		 
    	re .0   If your cat is climbing up a post to get into the roof,
    		how about covering the post with some type of sheet
    		metal?

    
    		Glenn

    Find out who is letting their cats run around, and let them choose
    between;
    
      o    Being a responsible cat owner, and not inflicting the cats
           upon their neighbors.
           
      o    Accepting the appropriate response from you;
    
         - They pay to clean/fix your car.
    
         - You practice your batting skills upon their cat.
    
         - You practice your batting skills upon their car.
    
         - etc.,
    
    
    Why in the world are you willing to accept their disagreable action
    of letting their cats run free. This is only your problem if you
    let them continue to do it. 
         

    
    
      rep .8  
    
      There is no leash law for cats and if you were to kill one with
    a bat. You'd be responsible for it also. If you pick on your neighbors
    car , than I'm sure you'll get just rewards. Like alot of dental
    work for one. Need I say more................
    
    BAL
      

    Leash laws only enforce required courtesy and responsible action. Any
    decent neighbor would accept responsibility for his actions, fix the
    damage done by his cats, and stop inflicting them on his neighbors. 
    
    By the tone of the original note, the situation has existed for some
    time, and is expected to go on indefinitely. The main point is that it
    is not the victim's problem, it is the cat owner's problem (since it is
    due to the cat owner's actions). There is no reason that the victim
    has to accept the problem.
    
    The victim needs to speak up and assert himself!
    

    
    
    re .10
    
    Would you please enlighten us with words of wisdom as to how you
    train your cat to stay away from your neighbors garage. This I've
    got to hear!!!
    

>                      ...and stop inflicting them on his neighbors. 
    
You'll have to tell me how to explain to a cat which yards it can go 
into  and which yards it can't.  Cats go where they want.  There is a 
body of case law that shows the opinion of the courts is that cats 
outdoors are allowed full freedom of mobility (i.e. they make it very 
hard to pass/enforce a leash law.)

I agree that the owners of the cat should pay for damages caused by the 
cat.  But the rest seems pretty unrealistic.  

>                             There is no reason that the victim
>    has to accept the problem.
    
But it would be pretty silly not to try and protect himself.  There's no 
reason you can't go out for a stroll with a necklace of $100 bills 
around your neck either -- muggers own the mugging problem.  But you'd 
be rather a stooge to go out and try it.
						>>>==>PStJTT    

    Who would you complain to if it were a raccoon leaving footprints on 
    your car? Or a skunk?
    
    You own dogs. You feed cats.

    1- hava-heart trap+1 can tuna+1 morning drive to the humane society
    =No more problem.
    Worked for me.
    
    -j
    

    We have the same problem with my neighbor who thinks that cats are
    "free spirits" and should be allowed to get into everyones trash.
      I have used the Havaheart trap method.  I bait it with cat food.
    When ever I catch one of the critters we play a little game with
    the hose.  Kittie gets a free bath from the hose for a good ten
    minutes.  Up until several weeks ago none of his six cats had come
    back for an encore.  One of them lately is getting brave, however
    and may be subjected to a different game.  
      People who let there cats run free when they know that they are
    raiding garbage cans or causing damage should be prepared for the
    day when Felix doesn't return home.  
    
    Jeff
        

    
    
    re .15
    
    You do that to one of my cats you may never return home!!! 8*)
    
    There are many ways to stop a cat from doing any damage to you
    property without that kind of abuse. There is no way a catowner
    knows where his/her cat goes when not at home. Hell; I'm lucky to
    find mine at 9 o'clock at night. 
    
    Try a little mothballs or epsomsalt in the garbage or around where
    you don't want the animals. This will not only stop cats but any
    other little critters that come to town. Also pet stores sell this
    stuff called BOUNDRY. Spray that on the places you don't want any
    animals to be. Usually a cat will stay away from an area if it's
    yelled at or just chased. If they still keep comming around then
    it's usually something they're after. I had a neighbor my cat kept
    visiting. She complained to me and I kept going over to get my cat.
    Finially my cat stopped going over. But at the same time my cat
    stopped going over my neighbor started to have mice problems.

    Mike

    Another humane solution to your problem is to tape balloons to the
    top of your car and around the area where you don't want the cat.
    Cats hate loud noises and when they pop the balloons it will chase
    then off.  This worked great on training a very stubborn one I know
    not to claw the furniture.

    I don't think cat owners can be held legally responsible for damage
    done by their cats...unless there's a very unusual situation (cat is
    rabid, owner knows it and fails to deal with it...or...cat bites
    someone and hasn't had shots).  I think they are considered wild and
    allowed to roam freely.  It's up to property owners to protect
    themselves from any damage that can be done by cats. 
                                                                   
    Cheapest way out sounds like chicken wire.  Will last forever, is
    relatively invisible, can be shaped to cover the desired areas.
    
    Try FELINES conference for repellants.
    

>    I think they are considered wild and allowed to roam freely.  It's up
>    to property owners to protect themselves from any damage that can be
>    done by cats. 

    I don't know who determined cats to be "wild" (nor do I care), I
    CONSIDER THEM PETS OF WHO EVER FEEDS THEM and would hold the owner
    responsible to curb their pets, and if they didn't, I would feel free to
    try some of the Cat-Behavior-Modification aids described in this note. 

>   Cheapest way out sounds like chicken wire.  Will last forever, is
>   relatively invisible, can be shaped to cover the desired areas.

    Cheapest maybe, but it would still cost time and money for the non-cat
    owner AND WHY SHOULD THEIR CAR-PORT LOOK LIKE A CHICKEN-COOP because
    of someone else cat!

    Charly
    
    P.S. I "own" a cat so don't dismiss this reply as rantings and ravings
    of a non-cat-owner.

      Why can't cat owners except responsibility for there cats?  I know
    _responsibility_ is an endangered tradition lately, but I find
    it rather sad that some individuals who own cats have an attitude
    that what there little Puss does is not there problem.  Why should
    someone have to go to the bother and expense to put chicken wire
    up in his garage, or the other potential solutions mentioned.  I
    keep my dogs confined.  If they were to cause damage, I would take
    the steps to alleviate the problem.  There MY dogs, so there MY
    responsiblity.  In many locals cats are considured as wild animals,
    and as such the landowner has the right to solve the problem just
    as he would if he had a problem with rats.  This is why owners are
    not legally responsible for damage caused by them.  You except the
    good with the bad.
                                                      
    Jeff

    
    re .20
    
    . How do I know that my neighbor is telling me the truth, when he
      said it was my cat doing the the damage to his garage. He determines
      that the damage was done by a cat, and he knows that I own a cat
      so he tries to get to pay for it.
    
    . I own a grey tiger cat and one other white/grey tieger cat. There
      are at least 5 other cats in the neighborhood that look almost
      exactly like my grey-tiger cat (a couple of them are real hard
      to tell). So my neighbor sees a grey tiger cat in his garage;
      How is he/she going to tell who's it is???? If I have a hard time
      sorting them out eh/she sure will.
    
    . State/local laws say that a cat is considered a wild animal.
      They are untrainable. It is up to the homeowner to guard/protect
      themselves from the damage it can do, short of hurting or killing
      the animal. Found this out when my cat attacked and mamed a neighbors
      collie. They tried to sue, but the judge through it out saying
      that cat owners are not responsible for theirs cats actions because
      they are considered a wild animal. Normally I would have offered
      compinsation, but the collie had attacked and killed one of my
      cats kittens.
    
    Mike
    
    
    

    "..they are considured a wild animal."
    
    Which gives the landowner the right to shoot your cat!!!!!  I have
    the right to shoot a wild animal that is attacking my property and/or
    livestock.
    
    Jeff

    Boy, I love great emotional issues -- this sounds like one that we
    could bat around forever!
    
    Hey, that last expression gives me an idea:  next time a cat wonders
    onto my property.....
    
    (:>

    we had this problem in california.  the neighbors cats were spraying
    our doors.  digging up the bushes, garden ect... and having cat
    fights on the roof and falling into the gutters in the middle of
    the night.
    
    Used possium trap and chicken bone.  got rid of 10 before they even
    noticed they were gone.  humane society said they were all deseased.
    
    bottom line we had to file a police report due to the threat of
    valance from said neighbors.  after that they also quit trowing
    trash in the back yard.

    re.21 I suggest you not allow your cats to run wild in my neighborhood
    because I would surely hose them down severly should the step out
    of line. I also would like to state that they are the owners
    responcibilityhere in colorado springs. I know this as fact because
    I had to pay to have my neighbors lawn chairs repaired after my
    ex's cats clawed the cushions to s#!t. Wild and uncontrolable or
    not an irresponcible attitude on an owners part doesnt mean that
    the author of .0 has to put up with it.
    BTW-hoseing a cat down is not inhumane I suggest you consult websters
    for a better definition of the word. It states inhumane to be: Cruel
    and unusual punishment. Somewhat subjective but I would consider
    tieing two cats tails together and hanging them over a clothesline
    to fight it out as inhumane. Pissing one off dosent come close in
    my book.
    
    -j
    

    
    re .22
    
    Do you live in the country??? In most city/towns (even here in
    Cowhampshire) the only way you can use a gun is if you life is being
    threatened. "Yes Judge I shot the cat because it was ready to attack
    my children!!" Shoot a gun in my neighborhood, and I'll have you
    behind bars in a matter of minutes. Shoot a gun in my direction
    and that may be your last act upon earth.
    
    Spraying a cat with water is one easy way of KILLING it. A cat can
    die even if a little water gets in it ears. Spraying it with water
    can easily do that. There are many more humane ways of getting the
    cat to stay off your property. However the first thing I'd do is
    try to find out why the cat is there in the first place. They're usually
    there for a reason. Get rid of the reason, and you'll get rid of
    the cat. 
    
    Mike

re .26
    
    "Spraying a cat with water is one easy way of KILLING it. A cat can
    die even if a little water gets in it ears."
    
    
    Please explain this.  

    Re: .26, .27
    
    It sounds strange to me, too.  I know that if you're going to give
    a cat a bath (as in cleaning it, or applying flea shampoo), you're
    supposed to stop up its ears with cotton.  I thought that was simply
    to limit the possibility of infection, not that the cat would die.
    Clearly outdoor cats get caught in the rain at times, or otherwise
    have accidents around water.  I doubt the cat population suffers
    much.
    
    The use of spray bottles of water is a well-known tactic for training
    a cat, though experts question its effectiveness.  I've read at
    least one book on cat training that recommends a bucket of water,
    simply because the spray bottle isn't enough.  I don't know though
    -- spray bottles seem to work on our (indoor-only) cats.
    
    I do believe that the earlier suggestion of trapping and dousing
    the cat is extreme.  A low-pressure squirt should be enough.  It
    still requires that you be there.  I think one of the other passive
    methods would be better -- balloons, or as I suggested, cans.
    
       Gary

      Sorry, but I disagree.  It is up to the _owner_ of the cat to
    make sure that it doesn't create a nusience of itself.  If you don't
    want Kittie doing a Mike Nelson imitation then keep him out of my
    trash.  Many cat owners think that just because there is no leash
    law for cats they aren't responsible for there cats actions.  If
    thats how you happen to feel, fine.  But please don't act shocked
    or hurt when your pet fails to return home from one of his midnight
    runs.   If I happen to move to an area where it is unsafe to shoot
    a firearm, then I'll use alternative methods to solve the problem.
    If certain cat owners don't respect there animal enough to keep
    it from causing trouble, then why should I "jump through hoops"
    to protect my property when I can solve the problem in an effective
    and decisive manner.
    
    Jeff (who owns two dogs and an indoor cat)               

    re: .26, .27, .28
    
    I think that .26 is bringing up an "old wives tale". Many cats enjoy
    swimming and even diving. My cat, Bonkers, has taken a dive many
    times into my various fish tanks with no ill effects to her.
    
    Spray bottles sometimes work very well, sometimes not at all. Often,
    what the cat learns with spray bottles is to not get caught doing
    whatever it isn't supposed to do. I used a spray bottle to "teach"
    my cat not to get onto the kitchen table. I've often entered the
    kitchen only to find Bonkers landing from jumping off of the table...
    
    	Marty Sasaki

Isn't it about time to write-lock this note?  It's gotten far past the 
point of being HOME-WORK related.
						>>>==>PStJTT

re .29

>      Sorry, but I disagree.  It is up to the _owner_ of the cat to
>    make sure that it doesn't create a nusience of itself.  

Supposing that you owned an outdoor cat, I'm curious what method you
would use to teach it not to get into your neighbor's garbage cans.
I'm also curious how anybody with garbage cans a cat can get into
is avoiding getting trashed by dogs, raccoons, skunks, and everything
else, and whether you are just venting your speen (understandable)
or whether you really would kill a pet for disturbing your sacred
garbage cans (and whether you'd be taken to the cleaners if your
neighbor sued).  But I digress.  What I'd really like to know is, do 
you have something in mind besides requiring cats to be kept indoors?  

	Larry

>    I don't know who determined cats to be "wild" (nor do I care), I
>    CONSIDER THEM PETS OF WHO EVER FEEDS THEM and would hold the owner
>    responsible to curb their pets, and if they didn't, I would feel free
>    to try some of the Cat-Behavior-Modification aids described in this
>    note. 
 
    
    While I don't argue with your position, I still feel that the problem
    calls for Cat_Owner_Behavior_Modification_Aids. Inconsiderate S.O.B.'s
    that turn their dogs out to do what dogs do naturally, or let their
    cats out to do what cats do naturally, or don't know what their
    kids are doing ........... there is a long list of items for which
    responsibility cannot be avoided.
    
    There is a strange attitude in this discussion. It seems to accept the
    initial discourteous act, but to not like it when the victim objects. 
                                                    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

I kind of wondered when this note was entered how much it actually had to do 
with Home_work, but I figured it would just die on the vine.  Since it hasn't, 
yes, I suppose it's time to step in.

Assuming this note belongs here at all, it belongs as a place for a discussion 
about what this person should do about keeping cats out of his carport.  It is 
not a place to discuss the philosophical or political or legal questions of 
exactly whose responsibility the cat is.

Any further discussion along those lines will cause something more heavy-handed 
by me, which I hate to be dragged into.

Paul

    I agree with .31 this is starting to sound like a discussion for
    FELINES not for HOMEWORK.............
    
    

    
    Re: .36
    
    	Rat hole?  Would a cat help get rid of the rat?
    
    

First, let me just say, I think many here are missing the REAL
    problem...you are assuming the cat is using the car to get to something
    else when it may be using the car as a "safe" place to cop a nap
    away from the local predators (dogs and small children) and/or sitting
    on the hood of the car to get warmth during cold weather...if this
    is true, attempts to stop the cat from "using" the car as a means
    of getting somewhere are going to fail...the cat is most likely
    getting exactly where it wants to go.
    
    Method to stop the cat:
    
    Well, I'd talk to your neighbor first, but the fact that the cat
    is loose in the first place indicates a limited sense of responsibility
    in the first place so I don't hold much hope...my second recourse
    would be to trap the cat and take it to a local kennel, kennel the
    cat under the owner's name, and leave a note for the owner that
    the cat is being kenneled and WILL be returned there each time the
    offense occurs...the expense should encourage the cat owner
    to be responsible and you will not get into trouble for hurting
    the animal. 
    
    I am a cat owner myself, but I agree that cats should not be allowed
    to invade other people's space and damage their property.
    
    Just for the record, don't bother with the repellents, etc.  They
    probably won't work in a car port area with lots of open spaces.

    re .-1
    
    good point about the cat getting to where it wants to go.  I once
    met up with my mother in laws angora sleeping on my engine - right
    near the fan blade.  I thought I threw a rod.  She wound up with
    a nice gash in the neck, fur all over the place.  After a rush to
    the vet and a weeks rest she was good as new.  In fact better than
    new - she had a much more pleasant personality.  Glad to be alive??
    Maybe.  I don't recommend this as opposed to a shrink for problem
    personality types.  Although there are a few people around here
    I'd like to try it on.
    
    The car does provide a nice warm protected refuge.  Until some fool
    comes out and wants to use it.

re: .1-.40

Wow!  When I entered .0 I didn't realize it would generate so much discussion.

Well, I did eliminate the cat's path up onto the beams of the carport,
but I still find cat prints and mud etc... on the car every so 
often (not as much as before, tho).

Since I entered .0, I determined who the owner of the cat is and
approached them with the problem.  They didn't seem overly concerned
about it.  They said they would "yell at it" (a lot of good that's gonna
do) if they saw the cat doing it again, but didn't think there was anything 
else they could do. They apparently don't want to keep it inside, and don't
want to take responsibilty for their pet's actions...  They told me to hose 
the cat down if I caught it on my car again.  I'll start trying some of the 
ideas in .1-.40 (starting with the less extreme, of course :-) to see if 
I can't adjust it's behavior.

I did enter a note in FELINE before entering one here, but it only generated 
2 responses (I think the FELINErs side with the cat in this situation :-) ...  
I entered it here because I thought it might be a problem that another DIYer 
had found a unique solution to.  I don't think this topic is any different
from any of the other PESTS topics (eg. "How to keep squirrels out of the 
house", or "How to get bats out of the attic", or "How to get rid of mice in 
the cellar" , etc...)

Thanks for all the replies, .1-.40 have been interesting ;-)
-j

    There are also a lot of replies in the GARDEN file to to a similar inquiry.
    Most of them are of the same tone - Hanging is too good for the
    cat.

> I don't think this topic is any different
> from any of the other PESTS topics (eg. "How to keep squirrels out of the 
> house", or "How to get bats out of the attic", or "How to get rid of mice in 
> the cellar" , etc...)

You're absolutely correct.  Sorry for any disparagement I may have cast upon 
your request in my one reply.

Paul

>> I don't think this topic is any different
>> from any of the other PESTS topics...

>  You're absolutely correct.  

There is one extreme difference that you ignore at your own risk:
you're talking about people's pets.  

Methods that carry "extreme prejudice" that would be appropriate for
squirrels or woodchucks, may draw an unexpectedly harsh response (i.e,
you kill the cat, the neighbor burns your house to the ground.)  For
this reason alone, I would advocate deleting the entire note and all its
replies, or at least deleting the ones advocating violent solutions or
violent reprisals on people who try those solutions. 

There are two things to bear in mind in a situation with pets; one, you 
are dealing with your neighbors.  You have to live near these people, 
and their good will is of great value.  Two, these are crazy times.  
People in Miami and L.A. are shooting eachother on the highway because 
they don't like the way the other person drives.  Is it wise to go 
around harming pets?

					>>>==>PStJTT

All I was saying was that the question of what to do about the cat was a 
perfectly valid one for this conference.

No, I don't advocate some of the extreme deterrents suggested, but neither am I 
going to delete them.  They may not be wise, but they are options.  It's not up 
to me to determine wisdom.  I happen to agree that these are unwise, but that's 
not the issue.

This conference is for discussing home-ownership related issues.  What to do
about the cat fits this charter.  Some of the suggested solutions were unwise 
at best, and it was pointed out that depending on your local laws may in fact 
be illegal.  So far so good.  Suggesting those options was OK (they may be legal
options, depending on where you live, and wisdom is again not for me to 
determine), and pointing out the potential consequences, legal or otherwise,
was also appropriate. 

What necessitated my stepping in was that the discussion started to degenerate 
into a philosophical/legal debate over whose responsibility the cat was.  
That's not what this file is for.  I've already deleted several notes that 
continued this line of discussion after I made the request to stop, and I will 
delete any subsequent notes that tend in that direction.

Now can we please stop discussing this issue and get back to Home_working?

Paul

    	I used a mouse trap to discourage un-wanted pests
    (dogs,cats,raccoons)from dining at my trash cans.... Instant negative
    reinforcement for the critter. Maybe you could set a blanket on
    your hood and set up a few Mouse traps. Kitty jumps up....SNAP....
    kitty learns not to jump on YOUR car. If you are afraid of HURTING
    kitty, you can easily remove one spring from most mouse traps thereby
    reducing the chance of kitty  getting seriously injured. Works to
    keep 'em' of the couch and chairs too. Sure beats hanging around
    waiting with a newspaper or a garden hose.
    
     
    

	You can also modify the mouse trap by putting a small piece
    of wood next to the swing arm.  When the trap trips, the wood will
    block the wire arm from clamping down on the cat, and make a very
    LOUD noise.  This way you startle the cat without havin to take
    him/her to the vets....
    
    Good Luck.
    
    Pat

re.-1 &-2
    I used mouse traps to train my EX's cats to stay off of my turntable
    for my stereo by using mouse traps after being told by a vet that
    it worked. The vet suggested covering the trap with a single sheet of
    newspaper to keep the cat paw out of the trap. I thought it a great
    way to keep the trap clean too just incase it caught fur 8^) 8^)
              
    -j

    The only reference in here to eliminating skunk odor was in .7.
    I had a skunk in my garage this past weekend, and he (or she) sprayed
    before I got it to leave. The odor lingers (that's an understatement),
    I tried some of the One-Drop stuff, a whole bottle of it, still
    got the skunk odor. I don't think I can use the tomato juice remedy,
    because of stuff store in the garage that is not washable.
    
    Any suggestions?

    One of our cats enjoys playing with skunks. He's been sprayed five
    or six times in the last few years. We  tried all the traditional
    methods to "de-skunk" him (tomato juice, perfume, etc) but the odor
    would always remain. However, we have found a solution in Massengil
    Douche. I know it sounds funny, but it works. Don't get the regular
    kind, get the "Spring Flower" scent, or something to that effect.
    I'm not sure how it'll work on inanimate objects, but what do you
    have to lose by trying?
    Dan

    Is your cat extremely dumb, or does it like getting bathed in the
    douche so much that it keeps fooling with the skunks? 8-)
    
    Bob
    

	Vinegar is one of the active ingredents in Masengil.  Other acids 
	such as tang may also work.  

	Brian

    
    My husband and I are the proud owners of the prettiest cat in the
    world. She is witty, charming and playful. She is very well behaved.
    She does not destroy plants, carpets, or furnitures around the house
    and knows where to do her" business". We had her when she was only
    8 weeks old and strictly disciplined her "actions". She is now 4
    months old, knows her name and responds to our facial expressions
    and commands.My husband and I are responsible cat owners. We keep
    her off our neighbor's property and no one has complained yet! 
    
    a_happy_cat_owner 

    What do all you people out there do to keep pets and pest away from
    your garbage?  We have dogs and cats but out biggest problem is
    squirrels.  They chewed up my barrel covers and are always tearing
    my bags apart.  There is a spray stuff in the pet store to keep
    dogs and cats away from flowers and shrubs.  Will this work if I
    spray it on garbage bags too and will it keep squirrels away too?
    How about one moth ball in every bag?
    Any ideas are welcome.
    
    Chris D.

I have liberally sprinkled pepper (the kind one typically uses on the table -
crushed black pepper, I think) in our garbage bags and have found that it
eliminated intrusions by 'coons and dogs (and all others, as far as we can
tell).  Plus, it's cheap!

    Perhaps metal cans would keep the critters out. Other ideas can
    be as simple as a bungy cord across the lids to a electric fence
    zapper attached to the cans (make sure its OFF before sanitation
    picks them up though) though this method did give a wicked surprise
    to a friends neighbor's cat who decided to spray the can one night!
                                                   
    
    Eric
    

    I put some ammonia in my plastic bags. Works great!

    The company that collects our trash supplies a curb cart to place
    plastic bags into.  The cart hold about six bags.  We have never
    had a problem with critters getting into our garbage.

    The metal cans I always see in the store are too small.  My family
    STUFFS one large garbage bag a day.  I have enough trouble getting
    them into the 33(?) gallon plastic cans.  Besides, once the garbage
    man gets ahold of a metal can, the cover will never fit right again.
    Maybe I'll try the pepper this week.
    
    Keep 'um comming.
    Chris D.
    
    p.s. What hardware store carries the squirrel shreader?

>    p.s. What hardware store carries the squirrel shreader?

    Spag's, of course - near the fishing tackle.

    I've taken to keeping the garbage in the (detached) garage, since
    the raccoons have gotten into everything else.  The even got into
    the plastic garbage cans with tied-down lids.  Another possibility
    is to build one of those little garbage can storage shack things.
    I seem to remember tearing out plans for one from the Globe a while ago
    -- I'll see if I can find it.

    Could one of you southern noters lend me your coon dog and coon gun?
    You could send them through inter-office mail, and I'll send you back
    some coonskin caps.

8^)

    re: .07  I keep my garbage in the cellar until garbage day.  I'll
    put it out that morning and in 5 minutes the squirrels are there.
    I would like to get ahold of those plans if you've got them so I
    won't have to keep the garbage in the cellar anymore.  I priced
    the sheds and they ran about $150.00 and $175.00 depending on size.
    
    Chris D.

    Expanding on an earlier suggestion, I have successfully used ammonia
    in a spray bottle.  After you place the  bags out for pickup, spray
    each bag and can with ammonia.  It's the cheapest and easiest method
    and was suggested by the trash collector.

    I used to have a racoon who would regularly visit my cans. He would
    get on the bumper of my truck to gan leaverage to tip the can over.
    One day, after doing a lot of sheetrock work and having a can full
    of sheetrock and joint compound dust, I heard a crash. The can was
    over and the whole area was covered with white dust except for a
    set of paw prints. I always wondered what an albino racoon looked
    like?
    
    Eric

    Buy a can of Aqua Net Hair Spray (it's cheap, .88/can).  This works
    to keep dogs away, I don't know about racoons.
    
    Julie
    

    Now I'm starting to wonder what we're doing right.  We've only been
    hit once since July.  At times we've kept the trash in the basement,
    but it's a tradeoff between smell and varmints.  Right now we're
    keeping it outside, with no problems.
    
    I wonder if the used kitty litter that we put into the trash has
    any effect.
    
       Gary

I wonder if ammonia would keep another varmint away ...




garbage collectors

>    p.s. What hardware store carries the squirrel shreader?

>>>    Spag's, of course - near the fishing tackle.

    That's where I find 'em....usually 12 guage, #4-4 1/2 shot.......
    Remington is the usual brand....

    Seriously, you probably can't shoot a raccoon in your area, but that 
may be one solution to  a single coon that is tearing up your garbage.  for 
something like squirrels, there are tooo many of the darn things.

    Had not heard of the ammonia trick before, but then I always am the one 
to take stuff to the dump, none of this curbside stuff for me!

    8^)

    
    When I lived in an area with roadside trash pickup I used the ammonia
    trick very successfully.  I mixed a solution of ammonia and water
    in a spray bottle and just kept it on hand. I froze the garbage,
    the food/veggies/smellies, until trash morning and then mixed that
    with the trash and finally sprayed inside and outside the bags.
    I only had the problem with dogs, as far as I know. This was a 100% 
    solution.
    
    K

    Well, I can tell you the pepper trick didn't work with my squirrels.
    My wife brought home a box of mothballs so I'll try those this friday.
    
    Chris D.
    

    this may have been discussed before, but....
    
    I use a heavy rubber (about 1" x 1/4") rubber bungee strap from
    one side of the can cart to the other, through the can handles and
    over the top.
    
    This has kept the New Jersey racoons, tough guys, out.
    
    	-Barry-
    

    I found the plans for the trash shed in a free pamphlet from Grossman's
    called "TRASH SHED."  The shed is 4' wide and just over 3' high, and
    holds two cans.  It's got swing-out doors in front and swing-up lid on top.
    Materials are 2 sheets of waferboard, 22' of 2X4, 6' of 1X4, and some
    hardware.  It looks easy and cheap to build.

    There's a Grossmans not too far from me.  Next time I go by there
    I'll stop and look for it.
    
    Thanks,
    Chris D.

    
    re:
>>                      <<< Note 2913.18 by TYCOBB::C_DENOPOULOS >>>
>>                         -< Squirrels like seasoning. >-
>>
>>    My wife brought home a box of mothballs so I'll try those this friday.
>>
    
    
          I can just picture the conversation ...
    
    A: Honey, we're out of moth balls. Would you run out and get some?
    
    B: Moth balls? What are you gonna do with moth balls?
    
    A: Throw them in the trash.
    
    					:-)  :-)  :-)        - John
    
                                                                   

    
    Well, you buy trash bags to through out don't ya? ;^)
    
    It's funny when you think about it, you buy things that their main
    purpose is to through them away.
    
    Chris D.

    Wouldn't moth *flakes* be better? ie: cheaper per application because
    you would use less.   
    
    			Mark

    Well, I can now tell you that Mothballs don't bother the squirrels
    either.  I think it's time for the amonia test.  I'll keep you
    posted (just for the heck of it).
    
    Chris D.

    If you haven't tried ammonia, yet, your wasting your time.
    
    As stated in an earlier reply, ammonia in a cheep spray bottle work
    great.  Only 1-2 pumps on the trigger is enough.
    
    You won't find too many critters (2 legged or 4) that like that
    stuff!

    I picked up some ammonia and a spray bottle yesterday.  Now I'm
    ready for them!!!
    
    Chris D.

    We recently had the "pleasure" of having a new next-door
    neighbor move in with four extremely loud barking dogs,
    which also come into our yard and "do their business".
    
    Without getting into a rathole like note 2463 about cats,
    what kind of methods have any of you found for dealing
    with these two problems?  I have already tried the obvious
    solution of talking to their dumb-a** owners, but true to
    their name (dumb-a**) they just act dumb and say they are
    controlling the animals, yet don't do a thing.
    
    Since we are outside the city limits, there are no animal
    control laws in effect.
    
    I had heard of some guy in california that made an ultra-
    sonic "gun" to blast cats with.  Apparently it had a 
    loud enough volume to scare the cats away after two or
    three lessons.  This might be the ticket for these
    dogs, both to keep them out of my yard and to keep them
    from barking.  Has anyone ever heard of such a thing
    and where you might get plans, schematics, etc?
    
    Thanks
    
    Gary
    

    Well, I'd simply collect the "presents" the dogs leave behind
    and deposit them in your neighbor's mailbox (maybe with a photo
    of the dogs "in the act"?) . . .
    
    Or get a BIGGER dog yourself

>    Well, I'd simply collect the "presents" the dogs leave behind
>    and deposit them in your neighbor's mailbox (maybe with a photo
>    of the dogs "in the act"?) . . .
    
Sounds like fun, and my vindictive side would love it.  But regardless of what 
jerks the neighbors are, inflaming them to a feuding situation is probably not 
in your long term best interest.

A little target practice with a BB gun ought to convince them that there are 
better places to visit than your yard.

Paul

    
    Leave exlax around your yard. The dog'll think they're chocolate,
    eat em all and nuke the owners house in the middle of the night.
    After a while, the owners will tie him up because they'll start
    to be afraid of what he'll eat when running loose.

    
     I would not suggest the BB gun trick. If I found out that sombody
    was shooting my dog,I would not be too friendly about it. Remember,
    the dog is part of many people's family and reactions will get
    nasty! Granted the dog is in the wrong but the use of the gun is
    not advisable.
    
     My Bb gun could put a pellet or BB right through some dogs..Find a
    better way!
    
    
    			Wayne

  I agree, the BB gun is a stupid suggestion--what if you put out one of the
  dogs eyes?  I don't think you want the SPCA showing up at your door.
  I'd get nasty if my dog were being shot at.  
  
   Putting up a fence is one possibility, albeit expensive.

   To what degree have you spoke to the neighbor.  Have you stated all of
   your concerns?  What did they say they would do?  If anything.

    What about...
    
     - spraying them with a garden hose ?
     - spraying them with an ammonia/water mix ? (seems to irritate
       them to know end, but doesn't do any permanent damage - kind of like
       Mace on people...)
     - stringing a single-wire electric fence about 1-2 ft off the ground ?
       (cheaper than a "real" fence, and it's not permanent - take it down
       after a while...)
     - shooting them with a slingshot ? (shooting something less dangerous
       than a BB...)
    
    Good luck, and don't hurt the dog(s) too bad...
    
    Todd

    there is a chemical...i think called REPEL...which can be
    sprinkled on the ground to make a sort of 'invisible' fence.
    
    I tried it once or twice...works ok until it rains heavy...
    at least that seemed to be my problem, but once the dogs found
    somewhere new to go, they didn't return to my yard.
    
    deb
    

    There is also a spray available in most hardware and pet stores that is
    suppose to repel the dogs (and cats) from the area.  I have never tried
    it, but it is suppose to be sprayed outside and be offensive enough to
    keep the animals away.  
    
    Another option is to call the police everytime you see the dogs in the
    yard.  I have 2 dogs, and a neighbor who "does not believe in tying
    their dog" and who also does not train the dog.  I spent 8 months
    trying to convince them to keep their dog in their own yard.  Talking
    to them didn't help (they understood what I was saying and the concerns
    I had, but I guess they didn't believe me), chasing their dog out with
    a hose or rocks, and generally being obnoxious to the dog (not the
    owners).  After my dog ended up getting bitten (and having to go get
    stitches), I called the police.  Since then (3 weeks), I have not seen
    the dog loose at all.   I guess a message from "authority" was required
    to get the point across.  
    
    

    
    The thing that you have to keep in mind is that the dogs are not
    at fault, the owner is. Shooting the dogs with a BB Gun or a slingshot
    (the slingshot would probably do MORE damage) is cruel and inhumane
    and would land you in more legal trouble than you could believe.
    Also, the "Surprise in the Mailbox" routine is against the law.
    (Tampering with a mail box is a Federal offense.)
                    
    Sonic "dog repellers" are available at many pet stores. They work
    at close range ONLY and don't work on all dogs. It's nothing more
    than a high pitch scream in the dogs face.
    
    Spraying with ammonia and water will do serious permanent damage
    if it hits the dog in the face and eyes. Shooting the dog with a
    hose might work over time... but I think the bottom line is dealing
    with the neighbor. Barking dogs are subject to the same "disturbing
    the peace rules" as people are (after certain hours)... perhaps
    that might help. 
    
    I live in a town with no leash laws, and no dog control officers.
    Nonetheless, when a rather nasty Rottweiler from two doors down
    made a habit of threatening my dogs (mine are restrained by my
    own preference) as well as my wife, I was able to get the police
    to "suggest" restraint to the other dogs owner.
    
    							* MAC *

       Although your town may not have a leash law, most places do have
    laws against public nuisances. You may want to call the police and
    try using that. A barking dog is a public nuisance
                                         Denny

    I've thought of this but luckily didn't have to do it.
    
    Get about 6 feet of chain and 2 locks per dog. When the dogs come
    to 'visit,' be nice and grab them, lock a short piece of chain around
    it's neck, then lock the other end to something the owner wouldn't
    enjoy having his dog locked to. His tire comes to mind. Imagine his/her
    face when they come out and are ready to go and find they have to
    cut the dog off the car before leaving. :^)

I personally have done the fence, looks good to neighborhood and 
keep all the poop out. Also removes the problem of biting dogs.

I have before the fence just taken the poop and thrown it into the
neigbors yard, just anyware. The neignbor used to wonder how the 
dog pooped in their pool....

I usually didn't have the problem with the dogs barking. If they were too
bad I would get up and yell out the window at the dogs to shut up. Useually
woke the neighbor too show they would get up and call their dog in.

Don't shoot the dogs the neighbor will know you did it. (you complained)
You can shoot the dogs if they kill or hurt an animal in your yard. No questions
were asked in my neighborhood about the dog who started to eat the farmers
chickens.

Calling the police about the barking sounds good.

my-2-cents

	Bill

    
    	Another vote for a fence. I did it (more in foresight, since I don't
    have the problem "yet") for 2 reasons: 1. to keep my doggie from
    doing it to my neighbors. 2. to keep other stray dogs from doing it
    to my yard (even though my town, Athol, enforces the leash law, I
    still see loose dogs roaming around).
    	A fence is a permanent solution, you don't ever have to deal with
    jerks-for-neighbor's-and-their-mutts. 4 foot high garden-wire fence
    is cheap (48" high x 50' long is $22.95 at Spags). Most dogs will
    go elsewhere when faced with this kind of barrier.
    	Works for me...
    
    Fred

	For a possible cure to the dogs barking problem, if late at night,
	call the neighbor up on the phone and just "BARK" back at him... 
	several phone calls (you stay anonymous - maybe, only if you have 
	others around) during a night (or week) should have him controlling 
	his dog.

	Good Luck!

	Woof - Woof

    
    I'd just like to say that I think people who don't control their dogs
    are about the lowest form of life to crawl the earth.  I've had the
    misfortune of living next to several of these dirtbags over the years,
    and it has turned me from someone who once loved dogs to a confirmed
    dog hater.  Yea, I KNOW that it's not the dog's fault, but it's not
    the VICTIM'S fault either.  What amazes me is that these jerks seem to
    think that their dog's comfort/convenience is SO much more important
    than that of their neighbors, and more amazing, most of these
    characters  seem to have never heard of walking their pests on a leash.
    
    Over the years, I've lived next door to TWO second-shifters, who would 
    come home, tie their dogs out back, and leave them their yapping from 
    11:00 to around 1:00AM.  After talking to one of them ("well the dog's 
    confined all day - he needs his exercise..."), I started calling the 
    police.  After three appearences, they refused to come down any more & 
    said I'd have to take it up with the animal control authorities. I DON'T 
    agree with the "don't take the law into your own hands" BS, or with the 
    "the dog is a part of my family & I'd be real mad if someone . . ." stuff 
    either -  if it's so important to you, than TAKE CARE IT, or face the 
    consequences!
    
    BTW, I won't detail how I've handled this problem, but I DID handle it, 
    permanantly, with NO legal consequences.  Use your imagination & just
    don't get caught.
    

    
    If it's not the dog's fault, I hope you didn't make the dog suffer the
    consequences.
    
    If the town has a dog officer........he should be notified. If that
    doesn't help, all you need is a couple of neighbors to sign a complaint
    along with yourself, and the owner has to appear in court.
    
    Lou

    re [.-1] This is all well and good in theory, but then I, through no
    fault of my own, am put into the position of having to go around
    collecting signatures, filing complaints, going to court, etc., all
    because some moron doesn't have the common courtesy to take care of his
    animal.  Personally, I really don't care who's fault it is, except to
    the extent that it's not MY fault.  Nature can be cruel - I am but the
    instrument...

    In our town, all you have to do is have several people complain about
    the same problem to the dog officer, and they take the individual to
    court.


    It's legal, and the animal doesn't suffer.


    Lou

    	One thing that you can do if you are satisfied that you have
    exhausted the possibilities with talking to your neighbors is to
    apprehend the dog and call the dog officer or police to pick it
    up. You will of course have to catch the dog which may put you at 
    some risk of getting bitten (depending on the dog). You can usually 
    get a good idea of how the dog will react when you walk up to it. 
    
    	I really would not want to have to hurt anyones dog since it 
    really doesn't know any better. This method can be espesially effective
    if the dog is not licensed as the owner will not know (or may not
    care) what happened to the dog and it may be gone never to return.
    
    	As far as the barking, I really can't help you there. Dogs will
    be dogs. The only consolation is it probably annoys your neighbor
    (since they're closest to the dog) as much as it does you.
    
    	Ray

    Replies .15 and .17 seem to be advocating taking the law into your own
    hands, provided you don't get caught.  I don't think I'm reading too
    much into them by concluding that they explicitly recommend breaking
    the law.  As such, they really don't belong in a Digital notes
    conference.
    
       Gary

    well, I tried Repel... it worked for a while.....
    
    I have two small children, and they love to play in the back yard.
    I cleaned it up and "childproofed" it for their safety.  There is a
    fence also.
    
    Now, this dweeb across the street had this "sweet" little mutt that
    barked alot.  No problem I says, dogs bark.  Then it started to dig
    under my chain link fence and poop in my yard.  This angered me because
    my shildren play in the yard...  Anyone that has three year olds or
    less will admit that they like to put ANYTHING in their mouths.
    
    First I tried the "gee neighbor, could you please keep your dog outah
    my yard?" stuff, that didnt work.  THen it was the REpel along the
    whole
    parameter of the yard... the first rain it was gone.  Then I got a
    little nasty.  I would scoop it up and leave it on his lawn, then on
    his door step.  Nothing yet.  
    
    Finally I got fed up and called the Police.  He came by and spoke
    to the gent.  reminded him of the leash laws in Nashua and left.
    
    the following week the little creep was doing it again.
    
    Now, mind you , I was getting pretty tired of picking up poop and
    filling in holes.  so the following week when the dog came into my yard
    I called the dog catcher and requested that he remove this animal
    from my premises and take it away.  He arived and questioned me as to
    who the owners might be..."I dont know sir, the dog just keeps showing
    up and I keep kicking it out".  Problem solved.
    
    I waited for weeks for the owner to say something, he never did.  Guess
    he really didnt like the mutt afterall.  I dont want to think about
    what might have happened to the mutt, I like dogs but this was getting
    stupid. Hopefully some kid that REALLY wants a dog got him.
    
    In Nashua, at least, they WILL come and take the animal.
    
    Al

    I have a neighbor who lives three houses up from me that has a dog
    that has bitten other children in my neighborhood.  That same dog
    has nipped at my kids too!  Different neighbors have reported this
    problem to the police, but the only thing done were verbal warnings
    to the owner.
    
    One day, when I was working in my back yard, shoveling loam, that
    neighbor let the dog out of her house.  Immediately, the dog came
    running into my yard barking it's fool head off at me.  I then took
    my shovel and nailed it on the head.  I did intend to kill it. 
    I'm not an animal hater, in fact I usually like dogs.  But I'm going
    to defend myself and my family against bad ones.  This neighbor
    did see what had happened.  No, I didn't kill it, but I'm sure I
    gave it one hell of a headache.  I then told that neighbor, even
    though she was upset with what I did to her dog, that there IS a
    leash law in this city.  And if you ever let your dog do this again,
    I WILL kill it.  I continued, "You've no right letting your dog
    come into my yard to harrasss or threaten me!"
    
    About a week later, they bought one of those electronic devices
    called an "invisible fence".  When the dog tries to leave it's yard,
    it's collar gives the dog an electrical shock.  I don't know how
    expensive it is, but it seems to work.  In fact, my parents would
    like to get one too for their dog, but don't know how expensive
    it is.  Seems better than a long chain tied to the dog.
    
    

>< Note 3595.22 by ARGUS::RICHARD >
>    About a week later, they bought one of those electronic devices
>    called an "invisible fence".  When the dog tries to leave it's yard,

	For more info (and prices too, I think), check out CVG::CANINE
	(40470::CANINE).  Press kp7 to add it to your notebook.

	--Mike

    I had a similar problem with a dog that was jumping and digging under
     the fence to my garden. Then proceeding to mess on the vegtables and
     dig them up. I caught the dog in the act several evenings, but the 
     owner always said " that could not be my dog, it would never do
    something like that". Well after several request for the owner to
    resolve the problem I resolved it. I moved the fence out about 5 feet
    and just inside I dug a hole about the size of the dog a about 6 feet
    deep, in the area the dog always entered. I won't go into the rest of
    the details. But about two days later the owner asked me if I had seen 
    his dog. " I said nope hadn't seen it for two days" 

    	re .24
    
    	Well, I hope that the local kids don't ever bother your garden. :^(
    
    	Remember, folks, it's not the dog's fault!  Somehow I think I 
    	would feel less uncomfortable about .24 if he said that the owner
    	disappeared instead of the dog.
    
    	Actually I doubt that the story is true.  Sounds more like
    	one-upsmanship than anything else...  Ever try to dig a hole
    	6 feet deep?
    
    	Joe Oppelt

    It's difficult, but can be done (I've dug footings)? The problem here
    is though its not the dog's fault, the dog is the one doing the damage
    physically. In the case of a damaged garden, a deep 6 may be a bit
    extreme, but if a snarling dog came into my yard with my son out there
    and threatened him, I would have no doubts that the animal would be
    dispatched to his final reward. I was at a friend's house when a German
    Shephard who had given him trouble previously, charged us. That dog was
    about 5' from becoming dog burgers a la a Colt 45 before the owner
    realized he meant business and called the dog back. The owner called
    the police, whho when hearing the whole story, told her that he (my
    friend) would have been completely justified in blowing the dog away!
    The animal's rights end when it becomes a threat to my family or
    myself.
    
    Eric
    

    Shoot the dogs!
    
       REK
    
    Oh yeah, for people who don't know me, I HATE DOGS!!!!!
    

RE .25

	If a dog has gotten the taste of blood, I.E. bitten someone
like in .22, then the dog will revert back to its wild forefathers....
Wolves. The only choice then is to kill it for you cannot train it to stop.

	Bill

	Who has had to go on several hunts to kill the wild dogs left by
people who didn't want them. I think THOSE PEOPLE were doing there dogs a
favor by leaving them in the country side instead of bringing them to the
pound. Instead the dogs starve, kill each other, or have to be killed to
protect the neighborhood. Good for the dog?

Has anyone thought of requiring a screening for people before they can
own animals? That way we wouldn't have the problem we got there.

Sorry for the side track....

    Several replies back, someone mentioned an electric fence.  A friend
    of mine tried this to keep out cats, with great success.  Most animals
    get the idea not to challange an electric fence pretty quickly.
    Once they get "bitten", you can leave the power off most of the
    time - they'll remember what the wire means.
       
    It will NOT kill the animal, but will give them one hell of a shock.
    It will do the same for you if you touch it by mistake (I speak
    from experience).

    Of course, if you have little kids that wander around the area,
    you could still have a trip hazard just from the wire being there.

    re [.27] THANK YOU!  Although I definitely wouldn't advocate
    discharging a firearm in a populated area, I wholeheartedly agree with
    the SPIRIT of your reply!  An nice sharp samuri sword, or an axe will
    do the job quite nicely.  Re [.20] - No, I don't advocate breaking the
    law at all - as far as I'm concerned, anything left on my property is a
    gift, and I can do with it as I please.   I just don't happen to need
    any more animals, so I'm forced to dispose of these unsolicited gifts. 
    Too bad, but life is tough.  One good point that was mentioned a few
    notes back deserves further expansion - people should always bear in
    mind that things like booby traps, poisons, snares, etc., will work
    just as effectively on a child, or some unoffending wildlife, as on the
    intended dog so make sure whatever you do, the culpret is the only one
    who gets the business!  

    The owner of a local service station lost his 2 dogs to antifreeze.
    The kid who closed up didn't pick it up before he left for the night.
    They say dogs and CATS love Prestone. I have a German Shepard who's
    on a run plus I have my backyard fenced in to keep out her buddies
    who like to leave their presents in my front yard. 

                         This happened to me...
    
    I have a home in maine, out in the sticks, everyone has a dog,
    including myself. My dog only barks if someone (including other
    dogs) enter our yard. I took the time to "condition" my dog to
    go out in the woods and take care of business, it worked. 
    The key was reward good behavior, punish bad. I have also taken
    my dog to obedience training it worked wonders, my dog is only 2,
    and if my neighbors were as considerate there would never be hassles.
    
    Other dogs who venture into my yard are basically at his mercy, I have
    a white melanois shepherd, who considers ramming his head full
    bore into the side of any other visitors to his yard, fun. I think
    1 dog challenged once, and ended up hurt. I do not advocate this,
    however, dogs do protect the area they live in.
    
    I did have a problem with a dog who left land mines everywhere,
    I took the time to show this dog to go in the woods too, and he
    does. I am an animal lover and do not mind spending a little time
    to resolve the problem. In my case the animal usually listens better
    and is more intelligent than the owners...
    
    Again there is the time factor, if the owners (or you) just can't
    spare the time, than there is legal recourse, specifically for
    LOUD animals, they usually give the owner 2 options, quiet the dog,
    or keep him indoors. In your case, the owners would be pretty pissed
    with 4 of them inside. The last option is to get rid of them, and
    they can do this.
                                                              
    Mig.

    I'm actually ashamed to admit that I work for the same company as
    a few of the previous noters.  
    
    Animals, specifically dogs, are the victims of their circumstances.
    They have to live by the rules that "man" sets down for them.  If
    "man" teaches them that it's OK to roam - then "man" needs to
    be re-educated so that the dog can be re-educated.
                                                      
    BTW - I can't stand snakes, but I don't advocate shooting them.
    
    For future reference to those who would rather do more harm than
    good, just remember - what goes around, comes around.
    
    
                                                          

    
    re: .33
    
    Hear, hear!  It's nice to hear a Humanitarian for a change!
    

    I, too, have had problems with stray dogs coming into my yard.
    My vet recommended the following and it worked!!!
    
    Go to the supermarket and by a couple of cans of red pepper.
    Sprinkle it on your lawn.  Dogs ALWAYS smell before they go.  When
    they get a noseful of red pepper it makes them sneeze and is not
    a pleasant experience.  YET, the vet said it will not HARM the
    dog in any way, just discourage the animal.  I have a large yard
    and would have had to buy a case of the stuff.  I just bought a
    couple of cans and did about 2 feet around the perimeter.  The
    pepper will last until it rains and you may have to do it again
    then.
    
    I only applied it once and have had NO problems.
    
    Sandie

    Will it work for cats? There forever on top of my cars and around
    my bushes.

    YES... the pepper trick works on cats as well.
    
    Though thought to be inhuman, it is actually harmless except for
    the unpleasent heat on the tongue. After a few doses, they find
    somewhere else to sleep/rest/
    
    The one problem with the pepper is that it is lost when/if there
    is a wind.
    
    Bob G.
    

    Anyone ever try red pepper to discourage rabbits from chewing up
    plants? I am currently using moth balls.

    The Garden Center sold me "Dried Beef's Blood" (in a bag) to spread
    in my garden.  It seems rabbits just can't handle the stuff.  After
    spreading it around, I never saw another rabbit.
    
    Sandie

    Yeah... but dogs love it.

	My house, in Southern N.H., is set back about 150 ft. from the road
with a wooded area in front. The driveway is flat at the base and inclines
towards the street. The inclined part of the driveway is rather steep and
narrow. Both edges slope down very steeply (you don't want to slide off my
driveway).
	On one side of my driveway in particular, I've noticed several
large, freshly-dug holes burrowed into the side. These holes are fairly
close together, on a steep incline, better than a foot across (one is
close to two feet in diameter), and pretty deep (no I didn't stick my hand
in there). Again, the holes are dug into a very steep incline (perhaps
75 degrees).
	I'm wondering what sort of humungous beast(s) made these holes. I
haven't noticed any unusual animal activity yet, but I am in the woods, so
anything's possible I suppose. Any ideas out there?

Short of additional information (where/how the excavated earth is disposed of,
how recent the digging is, etc.) I'll vote for immature male homo sapiens,
probably aged 10 or 11.

Jon

    Woodchucks?
    

    Look in the dirt at the mouth of the holes for foot prints, my
    guess would be Fox or Coyote.

    I've been trying to figure out *how* to provide additional information.
    Thanks for the suggestion in (.3). The holes are freshly dug. So I
    should be able to find some footprints nearby.
    
    I think coyote is unlikely in this area. However, a fox is a
    possibility I hadn't considered. The consensus of opinion thus far
    seems to be either woodchucks (the most likely) and badgers. I didn't
    think badgers were very common in this area either. If I had to pick
    from this selection, I'd hope it was a fox.

    Were these holes that had a cover of dirt over them? In other words,
    were they entrances to tunnels?
    I have problems with moles in that they don't just have one tunnel
    entrance but lots of them in certain areas. (the entrances looks like
    little mounds of dirt 8 - 10 in diameter, which actually cover the
    entrances.) I don't mind since my lawn isn't great, but it's a pain 
    when the lawnmower wheel gets caught in one of these holes.
    
    			Cindy
     

    If the holes are up to 2' in diameter, I seriously doubt that
    it's a woodchuck; their holes tend to be around 6" to 8" in 
    diameter, at most.

    Depending on the size, it could be a skunk den. Just don't get too
    close.....
    

    I'll bet they're made by porcupine.  You usually don't see them
    during the day and being in the rodent family they probably dig
    their own dens.  When I worked nights I'd see them occasionally
    along the sides of roads.  We live out in the Colorado mountains
    where they are common.  The larger hole (2 footer) could have
    started out as a 1 footer but enlarged by a dog or wild animal.
    Our dog loves to find animal dens and can really dig it out in
    no time.
    
    PS.  If you have dogs or cats it's a good idea to check them
    for porcupine quills from time to time.  Since they have one-way
    barbs they can work into the animal and eventually kill it. Once
    while working under a car I found one in the back of my arm.
    Although it was stuck 1/2" into the hide I didn't notice it for
    awhile.  It took plyers to get a strong enough grip to remove it.
    
    Enjoy the wild life!! ;^)
    
    Charlie

    grizzly bear?
    

    Dinsdale??

I've heard that there are coy-dogs in the area a coyote/dog mix I assume.  They
are wild.  

On the lighter side, could it be a baby egopantis?

I suggested a human (.1?) only half tongue-in-cheek.  Check for any signs of
current activity/habitation.  Spread loose soft soil around the entrance and/or
in the hole itself.  Look for paw/foot prints.

As someone said, a foot diameter hole is pretty big, too big for woodchucks,
skunks, etc.  These critters need room to move around, but I think they'd keep
the *entrances* to any dens small to keep out bad guys.  Porcupines spend alot
of their time in trees - I don't know if they nest? there.  Coyotes (while I
doubt they're the culprit, but I'm no wildlife biologist) are spreading through
most of New England, so don't be too sure they're not in your area.

Check out the hole with the brightest flashlight you have.  It has to be bright
to look inside if you're doing it in daylight.  I'd wager it's not too deep
and is not a den.

    I looked more closely when I got home from work yesterday. There are
    several holes, all freshly dug. They are all much wider at the opening
    than they are inside. In fact, that 2-footer actually has 2 smaller
    holes inside. I think it's very possible that a dog (or two) has
    widened the openings, trying to get at whatever's inside. Just to be
    sure my estimates were reasonable, I brought my carpenter's rule with
    me to measure the openings. Sure enough, the outer openings are about
    the sizes I mentioned before...All are 1-2' wide. The inner holes look
    to be about 6-8 inches across. It was difficult to measure. I didn't
    have a flashlight and couldn't assess the depth of the holes. I also
    found footprints at the openings...for whatever good it did me. I
    didn't recognize them. Plus they were in sandy soil and difficult to
    make out. One print measured 2-3 inches across. I'll see what else I
    can find. Suggestions welcome for narrowing down this bug.

    Regarding coyotes:
    
    I observed one accross the street in my neighbors yard about 3 weeks
    ago on a Sunday morning.  It was about 8:15 AM.  Used binoculars to
    confirm.  
    
    Location is South Londonderry, NH.
    
    We also have seen foxes, racoons, owls, hawks, and the usual assortment
    as well (various birds, squirrels, etc.)
    
    	Ted

    Could be groundhogs(woodchucks). I have seen their holes go from the
    aforementioned 6"-8" to looking like the beginnings of a new inter-
    contiental route to China. They usually have additional exits. These
    critters are out and about during the day, they like to graze, and 
    bask in the sun. Eradicating them could keep you busy for the next 30
    yrs.
              Coydogs/coyotes are showing up around here but I would not
    expect them to set up housekeeping anywhere so obvious. Groundhogs are
    not so shy, but they don't like dogs.
                        Good luck.
                              Mary
                    

    
    
    
    BAdgers
    
       E
    

    
    Gee, it's been a long time.  I ended up building the garbage shed
    mentioned earlier with the plans from Grossmans.  This keeps the
    squirrels out.  On garbage day, I put the bags into the barrels, put
    them out on the side of the road, and spray them with amonia from a
    bottle I keep in the shed.  Everythings been working great.......until
    today.  I heard a noise while eating breakfast that sounded like the
    shed cover.  I looked out and didn't see anything.  15 minutes later, I
    heard it again.  A racoon got himself in under the lid, tore apart the
    bags, then crawled back out under the lid.  This particular racoon is a
    real pain in the *ss.  He lives in the culvert off the street.  He
    drags garbage in there and everything.  When we get realy heavy rains
    now, the street floods 'cause the water flows much slower thru there
    now.  I have to find a way to get him out of the area for good.  Is
    ther a racoon topic in here??
    
    Chris D.

    I will resist the urge to say "We don't need no steenking Badgers"
    and instead make a guess at (a) woodchuck holes, because they do
    like embankments, modified by (b) dogs (or coyotes) trying to dig
    them out.  Badgers don't hang around populated areas much, and 
    they're rare in this area.
    
    pbm
    

    They're porcupine, Dadgumit!  Check out the tree trunks near the
    ground.  You'll probably find that some trees are missing bark.
    If you do find that there is missing bark then its proof-positive
    that the quilled creatures have been chewing on them.  On the
    other hand if you cain't find no trees with missing bark then 
    you've probably wandered too far from their den.  Turn around and
    take another stab at it.
    
    Charlie
    

    To go back to 'securing the trash', we use plastic barrels with
    'locking' lids, each with 2 bunji cords across the top (in an x
    pattern), with moth balls in the trash.  ... and last month came home
    only to find a FAT raccoon with the barrel tipped over, and had managed
    to SQUEEEEEZE himself inside (bunji cords intact!).  He didn't give a
    hoot about the mothballs or the bunji cords!  I guess we'll try the
    ammonia ....
    
    On the topic of .28 .... I'd really rather just discourage the coons
    from coming around (and the skunks!).  We had a coon up on the back
    steps the other night, and with 2 little boys, it's TOOOOO close for
    comfort.  Besides - the cat was chicken to come in (maybe a scent
    trail?)  Anyone have any ideas to keep a coon away?  They're neat to
    watch, but what a nuisance!  And ... do groundhogs eat trash??  There's
    loads of them around too (some of them 'live' under our shed).
    
    Thanks.
    Patty

    Gee this is fun!  The case of the Subteranean Excavator!
    I was just wondering..... once you/we find our what/who is
    tunneling.... what are you gonna' do?  Let'em continue tunneling or
    give 'em eviction papers?

    
   > Gee this is fun!  The case of the Subteranean Excavator!
   > I was just wondering..... once you/we find our what/who is
   > tunneling.... what are you gonna' do?  Let'em continue tunneling or
   > give 'em eviction papers?
    
    If so, forget the eviction papers.  You'll just get buried in
    lawyer fees for months.  Maybe you can sell the property ;-)
    

    Well, it depends first on finding out *what* it is. I might try to trap
    and move it...or harsher methods may be in order. I don't know yet.
    Usually, I go by the motto that if they don't bother me, I won't bother
    them. However, I'm now starting to become concerned about what it's
    doing to my driveway.
    
    A friend of mine who also works at DEC stopped over yesterday. His
    reaction was interesting..."Geez! They're huge! I've never seen
    anything like these before." So at least it's not just me.

    I'm not sure of the exact layout here, but if there's some way that you
    could cover over the holes (use an old blanket with rocks on the
    corners) or something like that, then see what happens.  Depending on
    how (if) the holes are uncovered, it may give some clues to what is
    doing it.  Or sprinkle a ton of 'white powdery substance'
    (flour?,powder/baking soda?) around the area so you can get some 
    distinctive footprints and maybe even 'follow' wherever the critter is 
    coming from.
    
    Personally, I vote for small boys.
    
    Are the holes still growing?  Can you sit in your car and somehow toss
    something in the hole (a rock) to see if 'whatever' is still in there?
    Tie a rope to the rock in case you miss - and be ready to leave quick.
    OR flood it out - a little less drastic.  If the hole's empty, fill it
    in!
    
    Kepp us posted!
    
    Patty
    

    On the same note...I find little holes in the yard too.  The are about
    1" in wide and about 2-3" in depth.  They are all over.  The
    neighborhood is full of cats and mine usually stalks the neighborhood
    at night and hasn't come home beat up or anything.  I don't think a cat
    made them...that was my first guess.  Any other ideas?
    
    Linda

                <<< Note 3848.24 by SPIDER::BASSETT "Design" >>>

    On the same note...I find little holes in the yard too.  The are about
    1" in wide and about 2-3" in depth.  They are all over.  The

    >>>Linda,

Do you smell skunks at night around the neighborhood? They will dig for 
grubs in your lawn and can really destroy a lawn with little holes if they 
decide that is where dinner is at.....If you ahve grubs and think it might 
be skunks, use a grub killing dust and the skunks will get the hint and 
leave.

    Vic H

    RE: .24
    
    I've got a fair number of similar holes (1" x 2"). I've seen the
    squirrels digging - for either grubs or acorns.

    If those little holes goe down at about a 45 degree angle, and if
    there is a flap of sod left attached at the top, you've got skunks.
    The solution is as mentioned in the earlier response: kill the
    grubs that the skunks are after.
    
    pbm
    

    
      The wife thought she heard on trying to "eat" through the pulldown
    staird to the attic the other night.  I checked the house and saw
    no entry point.  Got up on the roof and saw aome marks around the
    roof vents.  We have a hip roof so the vents are easy for the little
    darlings to get at.  I sprinkled a half a pound of the moth flakes
    over the attic floor and haven't heard a thing for over two weeks.
    I know they're around. (they play pine cone soccer on our rear deck)
    the dech is 16x20, and they even try to set off the motion detecter
    on the lights!.  Game time is around 2AM.  Haven't got the rules
    figured out yet....
     

    	
    	Last summer when I was on second shift I would regularly see a skunk in
    my neighborhood "making the rounds". One night I was walking from my
    car to my front door and he (she?) was walking right up my sidewalk
    toward my front door. I almost thought he'd ring the doorbell! Needless
    to say, I kept my distance and waited for him to move on. He didn't
    seem to mind my presence and I was DETERMINED not to make any
    threatening moves to scare him into spraying! I don't know what he was
    looking for but I saw him a couple of times after that, must've been
    his territory...
    
    Steve
    

    We've got a family of skunks that has taken up residence in
    the stone wall in our back yard.  Normally, I'm not too upset
    about skunks, because they do help with bugs, etc.  However,
    they are raising havoc with our dog, whose fenced-in-run area
    parallels the stone wall.  He's gotten sprayed twice during the
    late fall last year, and last night I smelled the "aroma" again,
    but fortunately he was unscathed (this time).
    
    What I'd like to do is make the stone wall an unacceptable place
    for them to live, and hopefully force them back into the woods
    away from the dog/house area.  I've seen earlier replies about
    moth balls and also amonia to scare them away.  Would scattering
    moth balls around the stone-wall area, or spraying ammonia in that
    area, be the best method of forcing them to relocate??
    
    thanks for any hints.
    
    andy
    

I was told to get some old socks fill them with moth balls and soak them with pine sol.
I've done this once a year for the last couple of years and had no problems.

    Andy, the Humane Society in Nashua now has 24 hour emergency service.
    You're welcome to call them for advice/assistance on this. (883-8512).
    
    Good luck!
    Mike

    ...anybody familiar with the breeding habits of squirrels? Usual
    number in litter? Does the male stick around?
    
    I spent 4 hours yesterday trying to roust what I thought was one
    squirrel from an open soffit. (Truly a comedy in hindsight.) I ended
    up dislodging 3 of the wee beasties. That appeared to be all. One of
    them met an untimely demise when it ran into the cellar and hid under
    an old water heater, 2 escaped unharmed but drenched as a result of
    my chasing them with a hose. Though I removed the nest, are they
    persistant about their abode?
    
    The first one to escape sat in a nearby tree SCREAMING at me as I
    finished the deed. Talk about a guilt trip...
    
    Edd

Guilt trip?  You're not thinking of them as "tree rats" as you should.

    One way to solve your problem is discussed in quite detail in the 
    Air gun notes file.   Use your imagination.
    
    

    > are they persistant about their abode.
    
    They answered my question themselves, in the affirmative. Saturday
    morning they were back. This time I loaded up a spray bottle with
    ammonia and let 'em have it. Unfortunately for me, I must have hit one
    right in the face, as it couldn't leave. When I finally dislodged it
    with a stick and knocked it to the ground it didn't even run. I carried
    it over to the edge of the lawn. Some time later it was gone.
    
    Edd

    
    Well deceided to let a "professional" handle this since I was
    contemplating screening in the entire perimiter of the roof just above
    the gutters, so I figured "I'm missing somthing here." And since the
    cost of materials was more then the exterminater, what the heck. they
    at least give a guarantee. So along they come and find the point the
    little "tree rats" are comming in.  "hint: The window screen I stapled 
    around the vent is riped to sherds". 1/4 inch screen is secured to the
    vents and that is that. Right? Wrong.  I asked " how do you know that
    they're out.  Iwas informed that because of the fine weather ther're
    out.  Well come 4AM all h*ll breakes lose in the attic.  Seems the
    tennents are a little muffed that the door to go out is locked!  So
    back come the pros and install a one way door.  We heard them this
    AM and where suprriesd to see one outside on the roof trying to get
    back in and was mad as the dickins.  So the lesson is to put up a
    one way door. Assume there in and don't lock them in.  I was told that
    ifthey _where_ stuck up there, I would know in a couple of days, since
    "they ripen up in a few days"  
    
    well for now we're waiting to see what the next move is.
    
    Later
    
    George C.
    

    Well, I've tuned into this note some 11 months later...the discussion
    apparently hit a dead end--along with the tunnels--but I'm intrigued. 
    Especially since I'm also a resident of rural Southern New Hamster.  So
    whatever happened??
    
    The previous replies regarding woodchucks, skunks, and
    holes-enlarged-by-canines make the most sense to me.  Did the
    perpetrator(s) simply disappear?  Maybe your investigation put 'em off
    a bit.
    
    Just a note or two on the coyote/coy-dog discussion:  Coyotes do indeed
    exist in substantial numbers in New England now -- and I've heard their
    distinctive call in the woods behind my own home (used to hear them in
    Arizona all the time -- they haven't changed a bit!).
    
    The so-called "coy-dog" is an interesting subject -- particularly its
    origin, which is subject to question.  In Massachusetts, I once caught
    a glimpse of what appeared to be a coyote type of critter -- it was
    certainly larger than your standard coyote.  The farmer whose property
    it was on, and who also saw it, told me it was a coy-dog.  Made sense
    to me, as I know that coyotes in the southwest sometimes breed with
    domestic dogs.
    
    But when I mentioned it to a state wildlife manager, he told me that
    there's no such thing -- as far as the wildlife department is
    concerned.  (A matter of semantics, perhaps, in that there's no
    "official" critter called a coy-dog.) 
    
    But -- and this is going back a couple of years now, and I don't know
    if their opinion has since changed -- he said they *suspect* that when
    some of the coyotes migrated north, they crossed with the red wolf, and
    the resulting offspring then migrated to New England.
    
    Just to tie this back into the orginal topic (!!), here's yet another
    possible perpetrator to consider. 
    

    	Well, this is a good time to ask I guess. I had a large vegetable
    garden all last summer right near these holes. So if it had been a
    woodchuck, I surely would have found out by damage to the veggies. My
    best guess is that small tunnels and holes (many, many of them) were
    made by red squirrels. I have an enormous population of red squirrels,
    grey squirrels, and chipmunks on my property. The red squirrels are
    everywhere. I see them running into the holes by the driveway...They're
    up in the trees screaming at me while I work in the garden...They're
    burying acorns in my raised beds, killing my veggies this year and have
    been eating my strawberries too. I suspect that the neighborhood dogs
    chase the squirrels (I've seen my dog do it) and probably dig at the
    holes to try to get to the squirrels, making the entrance much larger.
    	The funny thing is that they weren't a problem for my garden last
    year but have caused considerable damage this year...I don't mind
    having them around, but I may have to find some way to keep them out of
    my garden. The 4' metal fence (none of it buried) doesn't stop them at
    all.

    Does anyone know what an exterminator charges to get rid of squirrels?
    I live in an apartment and atleast one squirrel is knawing it's way
    into the attic if it's not already in there.  I haven't heard it but
    there is insulation all over the place just outside the house and I can
    see the little bugger out there once in awhile on the roof.  My
    landlord doesn't seem overly concerned but I like living there and
    don't want any roommates.  I'm also very concerned about water damage
    and possibly fire if it starts chewing on wires.  grrrr  I'm not going 
    up there though! so thought about hiring an exterminator on my own and 
    having someone block the hole after.  Anyone know about how much it
    might cost??
    
    Marie

    My soffit must be on the squirrel's Hot 10 Vacation Spots list.
    
    They're back.
    
    At 6:30 this morning I heard one rustling around in the soffit. I was
    quite surprised as the house was sided last summer and (I thought)
    all access sealed. Nope! They found a crack behind the chimney no
    wider than this ->      <- and use that to get in! I immediately
    loaded a squirt bottle with ammonia and let them have it. I repeated
    the treatment tonight even though there was no sign of any inhabitants.
    
    ...soon as the weather breaks the crack gets sealed.
    
    Edd

    We live in an area which has a large dog population. Several dogs have
    taken to relieving themselves on our lawn (;^) which has led to several
    spots where the lawn no longer grows. As we're not around enough to
    police the property, is there anything we could buy and apply to the
    lawn that might (safely) discourage dogs from using the lawn in such a
    way?
    
    

    The most effective deterent is another (larger) dog.   ;-)
    
    (Dog's won't soil their own yard, and will defend their yard from
    others.)

    
    
      Dogs won't soil their own yard??? On what planet? Every dog
     my family has owned used the yard. My own dog does and so
     doesn't my neighbors. If you don't want them in your yard
     put up a fence.

	    I don't know if this helps, but it's worth a shot.  Dilluted
	ammonia can be used to fertilize your lawn (it's high in nitrogen).
	Cheapo dishwashing detergent is also good for your lawn; it helps
	loosen the soil and drives many bad bugs away.  Put the 2 of these
	into a sprayer and water your lawn with it.
	    The dogs may be attracted by the scent of their last rounds.	
	This should rinse away these odors and the dogs might look else-
	where for a good spot to relieve themselves.  Even if this doesn't
	work for getting rid of your 'problem', it will help you maintain
	a nice lawn.  It's cheap, it's easy and it's environmentally cor-
	rect.
					Tim

    
    
    I like the BB gun myself.  Very light sting.  They think its a bee
    sting.  Once or twice and they never want to come back in the yard.
    A Crossman works the best.  You can very the size of the Bee sting!
    
    Rambo
    

    
    	re. -2,
    
    	dish washing detergent? mix with a sprayer? hmmmm......
    	won't this mixture fill your lawn soap suds? what is the soap/water
    	mixture? i wouldn't mind giving it a try. i'll start in the back
    	yard first. i don't want anyone slipping on lawn.
    
    	vic
    
    	

re .2
    
    >>                      -< Watch your step >-
    
    >>   ...If you don't want them in your yard put up a fence.
    
       Better yet, find out if your town has a leash law and report the dogs.
        If there is a leash law you shouldn't have to go through the expense
        of putting up a fence to control other people's pets.
    
        If there isn't a leash law, well, then, watch your step. :-)
    
        George
    [EOB]

    We have had arrogant neighbors who believe leash laws are for other
    peoples' dogs.  The problem is that the dog is just doing what is
    natural; the neighbor is the bad guy. You could call the local police,
    assuming a leash law, but they get tired of that after a while and your
    neighborhood quickly degenerates into hate city.
    
    If you are around when the dogs visit, very cheap perfume in a
    high-powered water gun gets the message home to the neighbor; day-glow
    dye from one of those week-end warrior's guns also works.  Delivering a
    gift-wrapped package of week-old feces also sends a message.
    
    If you are not at home, you need to discourage the dog. Dogs generally
    sniff their previous drop zone.  I have been very successful at
    discouraging neighbors' mutts from repeat offending by sprinkling a
    liberal amount of freshly ground red pepper (moderately fine ground)
    around the first insult.  Since guilt-ridden neighbors usually sneak
    the dog out for toilet runs before dawn, you should sprinkle the areas
    before retiring the night before.
    
    One morning I actually watched one  offending pooch.  One big sniff and
    he took off howling.  Now, when he runs loose, he avoids our lawn.
    
    Or, you could keep a cheetah as a house pet. :-)
    
    
    Luck
    

re: 4622.4               Dog discouargement materials?                   4 of 4
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                      -< Your dog dun stop heya no mowa >-
>    I like the BB gun myself.  Very light sting.  They think its a bee
>    sting.  Once or twice and they never want to come back in the yard.

Discouragement is right. Its definately one way. However, in some states
like Massachusetts, common sense is not part of the gun control law, and
I have *heard* (not verified) that the old trustte "BB Gun" is regarded
as a Rifle, and comes under he laws regarding ".. willful discharge of 
guns within city limits .."

Bob

    There is a powder on the market which claims to repel dogs.  I tried it
    for awhile while trying to train my dog to stay out of our garden.  It
    was moderately successfull, but I did end up putting up a small picket
    fence in the end.

    re .7
    >>  Delivering a
    >>  gift-wrapped package of week-old feces also sends a message.
    
    Actually, the fresher the feces the stronger the message. ;*}
    
    

    Chapter 140 and 269 of the Massachusetts General Laws defines a BB gun
    the same way as a rifle. Same thing for a pellet rifle.
    
    You need a firearms permit and can not discharge your weapon within so
    many feet of a dwelling.
    
    I didn't say it made any sense.
    
    Marc H.

>>    	dish washing detergent? mix with a sprayer? hmmmm......
>>    	won't this mixture fill your lawn soap suds? what is the soap/water
>>    	mixture? i wouldn't mind giving it a try. i'll start in the back

I have a book called "The Impatient Gardner" by some famous gardner type
person whose name I can't remember.  In the chapter on lawn care, he
recommends mixing together 1 cup of each: epsom salts, dishwashing liquid,
listerene, ammonia and beer.   I forget the mixture (20 to 1?) but it covers
2500 square feet.  I've done it a couple of times and I've got to admit my
lawn has never looked better.

    
    re.Marc
    
    What they cant hear, they cant see. 
    What cant be seen, cant be reported...;)    
    
    Acutally, while we are here.....A paint gun also requires a permit!
    
    "Rambo"

re .12:

With a combination of ingredients like that, it must be Jerry Baker.

>>With a combination of ingredients like that, it must be Jerry Baker.

You're exactly right.

    We don't have a major problem at our house, but for the few times
    we do, we sprinkle some "Dried Blood" near the area.  Dried Blood
    is a powder available at most garden shops.  I have not read the
    ingredients, but my wife is not queasy about using it!
    
    

re .5	    I don't think the detergent mixture makes the lawn all that
	slippery.  I've used it and haven't noticed anything other than
	a decent lawn.  Wet grass is always slippery, which is one reason
	mowing a wet lawn is not recommended.  
	    As for calling the dog officer, I don't think that should 
	be considered as a first resort.  Dog officers are underpaid and
	overworked as it is.  The idea of some red hot chilli pepper to
	motivate a dog has a certain appeal, though.

					Tim    	

    re .16 "dried blood"
    
    	I think the ingrediants are in the title. No preservativs added.
    
    George

I've read in here that dried blood *attracts* carnivores (dogs, cats).
I use it in my garden, but I don't have a lot of critter problems, at
least once I've got the plants in and the raised bed doesn't look like
a giant litter box.

    There is a soil supplement, called "blood and bone", may also travel
    under the name dried blood. My local Agway wiz, assures me that its the
    best thing for stopping the Beavers in our pond from eating the small
    trees in our garden. I am getting sick of that scotch terrier next
    door, leaving landmines on my lawn, so I might give it a try soon...
    
    q
    

    I find it interesting that no one has suggested talking to the dog
    owner. I am a dog owner, and I *far* prefer that someone come and 
    talk to me before they talk to the dog officer, or shoot my dog
    with a BB gun, or deliver packages of feces to me. I realize
    that many dog owners let their dogs run free, but I think talking
    to the owner and letting them know there is a problem is the best first
    step. I had the dog officer come and talk to me about my dog running
    wild while I was at work, which was pretty surprising to me, because 
    he's on a run. It turned out there were neighborhood kids letting him
    free to play but neglecting to chain him back up.
    
    
    If the owner ignores you, then call the dog officer. All the dog
    officers I've met really do a reasonable job of controlling dogs.
    
    
    

    � -< How about talking to the pet owner first? >-
    
    I didn't go back and check, but I believe part of the problem the base
    noter described is that he/she isn't around to identify the problem
    dogs/owners...
    

    
    Well if talking with the dog owner won't work. Her is a trick I have
    used, 
    
    Make a sandwich with what ever filler you want and put a some EX-LAX
    (Alot) in the sandwich. When the dog is let inside for the night...
    what a mess the owner will have in the morning, do this a few times.
    
    It's interesting to hear the comments from the owner about how sick
    the dog has been and that they can't let the dog out because it
    gets sick every time.
    

�                      <<< Note 4622.23 by HORUS::DAVIS >>>
�                                -< EX-LAX it.. >-

	Cruelty to animals is not a solution to obnoxious owners.

	--Mike

    
    As a frustrated home/dog owner who keeps his dog on the leash, I
    sympathize with the homeowners who have to pick up feces from
    other peoples dog. I also sympathize with those who have had shrubs
    destroyed by someone elses male dogs that urinate on them.
    
    As far as powders(REPEL) or sprays(Keep off the Lawn) work, they don't
    work after a couple of days(It did keep the kids out of the yard
    though).
    
    Concerning (.21) about talking to your neigbbor before you call the dog
    officer, forget it. I did talk peacefully to my neighbor and I almost
    got into a fight over it.
    
    Call the dog officer but even that will not work unless the dog officer
    is willing to issue a fine, and in small towns like mine, the dog
    officer is willing to give these disobediant owners a lot of chances
    before any fines are issued.
    
    The dogs are the culprit but it is the LAZY OWNERS who are the problem.
    A dog is a dog and is going to do its doggie thing. It cannot think and
    rationalize and know what is right or wrong, but the OWNER can.
    
    As far as the red pepper and BB-GUN(which is what I am going to resort
    to)working, I would like to test it out on the OWNER.
    

          Re:-1 I agree 100%. As a dog/homeowner I've also had problems
    with a neighbors dog. It all came to a head when the dog killed one
    of my chickens. It's tied at all times now. I'd have cicumvented the
    dog officer and gone straight to the board of selectmen had I not
    received any satisfaction. Only problem now is if my house were on
    fire this neighbor would likely come over with an accelerant.
                The dog was basically a good animal but terribly neglected
    so he always ended up at my house.
    
             Bob

    
    I was pretty tolderant of the neighbours dogs until they chased one of
    my cats upa tree, and my wife got stuck in the tree tryig to rescue the
    cat. 
    
    I followed the two dogs next door but nobody was home. So I wrote a
    note asking them to keep the dogs off my property, and for the owner to
    come see me/call me if they had questions.
    
    Since then I haven't seem them!
    
    Simon

    My neighbor across the street seems to think his dog is exempt from the
    town's leash law.  Both he and his wife have been outside as they
    watched me chasing their dog out of my yard and didn't say a word. 
    One day, they were out in their yard, my husband and I in ours, and
    their dog wandered into our yard, sniffing away.  They didn't do a
    thing to stop it.  I yelled across the street, asking them politely to
    call their dog back, which they did.  The next morning, quite early, I
    heard a whistling coming from my neighbor's house.  As I looked out the
    window, I noticed their dog running towards their house from MY
    backyard.  This was the first time I heard them call their dog.  That
    evening, when I ran into my neighbor, I thanked him for doing that,
    saying that I know it's difficult teaching old dogs new tricks (we live
    in a new house on a lot where the dog used to do his regular dumping). 
    He said the rule in his house was that whenever the dog was let out,
    someone should go out with the dog, and said his kids never do that. 
    Well, neither does he.  This was the last time he called his dog.  My
    husband and I, and the neighbors around this particular house, are
    completing fuming about this dog and neighbor.  Here we're all trying
    to start new lawns, establish landscaping, and everything is getting
    dumped on.
    
    Black or red pepper do work, but everytime it rains you need to reapply
    it.  The dog & cat repellent are mostly comprised of pepper.  It's a
    lot cheaper to go to BJ's and buy the restaurant size container of
    pepper.  Another method is moth balls.
    
    By the way, there is dried blood meal and then there's bone meal.  I
    believe it is just the bone meal that attracts dogs and cats.
    
    I have to admit that I have thought of dumping the feces on my
    neighbors lawn or front step...forget even putting it in the box! 
    Disposing of their dog's feces should not be my responsibility.  I've
    tried asking politely and reinforcing their attempts (albeit weak
    ones), and I'm tired of running out of my house every time I see the
    dog walk into my yard.
    
    Thanks for listening to my gripes!  I completely empathize with the
    base noter and all those in similar situations.  
    
    Lynn                                             

    Chain the dog, and call the officer to pick it up as a stray. Next time 
    you catch the dog in the yard, call the officer to pick it up. Repeat 
    application as needed untill your neighbors are broke or tired of retriving
    their dog. The officer would be pretty sick of it too after a few times gone
    by and hopefully notify the owners loud and clear of there negligence.
    They will get the hint soon enough. I would also bring the dogs remains over
    each and every time you find it... and leave it where it counts.
    What are they going to do, call the police. Let them...
    
    Dave' 

    Could this be insects (ants, termites?) or animals (mice, chipmunks,
    squirrels) making a constant noise that sounds like munching on
    cheerios or popcorn? I don't hear any of the walking-around noises
    that mice make when they scurry through the walls. It's just a
    continous munching sound. When I pound on the wall it doesn't really
    stop - not that I've noticed. The location is on an outside wall
    behind a sheet of solid insulation made of styrofoam or something
    like that. It's not easy to remove the insulation because there's
    wood framing it at the top which actually is where a roof juts out
    from the side of the house to cover the entrance to the basement.
    
    Any ideas what to do about this or what type of contractor to call?
    
    Thanks,
    Diane

    I had this problem too! My guess is that you have a colony of
     CARPENTER ANTS!!! Here's what to do...
    
    Get a spray can of insecticide (for ants) and make sure that it is
    supplied with a long thin tube that affixes to the spray nozzle. Drill
    an appropriate-sized hole in the area where you are hearing activity
    and... LET THEM HAVE IT!!! I drilled 2 or three holes so that I could
    be fairly certain that they could not migrate.
    
    The next day you will have only silence. 

    I'd suspect ants if it doesn't stop when you pound the wall...
    
    But I wonder if the styrofoam itself could be responsible somehow??
    
    Edd

>Could this be insects ... or animals ... making a constant noise that
>sounds like munching on cheerios or popcorn?  ...  It's just a continous
>munching sound. When I pound on the wall it doesn't really stop ...

     That sounds more like insects than animals.

>The location is on an outside wall ... It's not easy to [get to] ...
    
     On the inside, is there an electrical outlet or wall switch that could
be removed, or a double hung window whose sashes could be removed so you
could peek through the chamber where the weights are?  If the electrical 
box is against a stud or the weight chamber is enclosed, you could drill
exploratory holes to get to the next vertical segment of the wall.

    Come to think of it, there is an outlet just about where the noise
    is. I could pull that out and look in. I'll try the drilling and
    spraying with insecticide also. Is there any insect that dines on
    styrofoam?
    
    Diane

    You may want to consider calling an exterminator.
    
    Spraying household insecticides ("Raid", "Black Flag") *may* cause them
    to just quickly pack up and move to some other spot.
    
    You want them DEAD.
    
    Edd

    Just a precaution, but go outside and see if you see any signs of
    yellowjackets entering and leaving the house.  I had a nest in my first
    floor ceiling (they got in via an improperly sealed bow window).
    
    I called an exterminator and the first thing he said was NOT to touch
    the ceiling.  It seems that these creatures have been known to use the
    gypsum in wall board for *their* construction projects and will munch
    right down to the plaster skimcoat.  People have put their hands
    through the thin plaster and...I won't describe the rest.
    
    It's probably just carpenter ants, but take a minute just to make sure
    before you start putting holes in the wall.
    
    Bob

    My carpenter tells me that either carpenter ants or termites will make
    such noises. The noise is constant 24 hours a day.                        
    	Ants and termites *love* styrofoam... not to eat, but to burrow
    through. It makes for *real* easy going.
    
    	Termites cannot stand to be exposed to sunlight etc... They must
    have cover and will thus tunnel or build mud tubes to protect
    themselves.
    
    	Carpenter ants do not eat wood but burrow through it if necessary
    in order to get to where they are going, and to build their nests. They
    will usuall choose the path of least resistance. It is not uncommon to
    find them nesting under roofing material.
    
    	Damp wood will attracts both types of insects. Be careful of
    leaving anything other than cement in contact with the ground.
    
    	Having said that, does anyone know where I can buy a stethescope? I
    want to go termite hunting in my crawlspace.

    I have a stethescope you can borrow. Live in Litchfield, NH, work
    in Littleton, MA.
    
    Diane

�                     <<< Note 4724.7 by KEYBDS::HASTINGS >>>

  brings up a good point--

�    	Damp wood will attracts both types of insects. 

  If you find that it is carpenter ants, you should also look for the cause of
the dampness.  They will establish a colony only where the wood is consistently
wet, so you should be on the lookout for what is causing your wall to be damp.

--Mike

    Powder post beetles also make a very large munching sound.  They are
    very difficult to eliminate since you really can't spray them.  They
    enter pieces of wood and usually stay on the inside.
    
    -al

	We have just had a treatment done for powder post beetles.  Are you
	saying the treatment is not effective?  I read somewhere in this file
	that they are treated by inserting rods of the poison into the wood.
		Linda

    My dad had the same noise.... truned out to be ants!!!  Have a pro
    come in or DIY!!!!  But in any case, get ride of um'!

re: .11

No, he's just saying that spraying raid in the area of the munching doesn't
deter powder post beetles, because they are buried in the wood.

Elaine

Last time I checked, Brookstone sold stethoscopes. As do most drugstores
which carry hospital supplies. Other drugstores can get them in short order.

-Jack

    	I'd be afraid to listen to my walls with a stethoscope! Related to
    this discussion, I have an attached garage with insulation in the
    garage wall attached to the house. There is some exposed insulation for
    reasons I won't go into. However, some critter or critters have been
    pulling out chunks of insulation which I find in the same location on
    the garage floor. The critter seems to be able to get in and out of the
    garage even when the door is "closed" (there's a small space at the
    bottom even when closed). Otherwise, that's the only evidence I have. I
    haven't heard or seen anything, and I can't figure out exactly where
    the insulation is being pulled from. I've looked all around up above
    where I've found it on the garage floor (and I find more small pieces
    every day). I suspect mice, chipmunks, or squirrels, but I don't know
    yet. Anything else it might be? Suggestions to get rid of whatever it
    is? I already put a box of rat poison in the vicinity.

    Yup probably mice, maybe they are trying to build a nest in your car,
    have you checked your air filter lately!! 
    You can also get mechanic stethoscopes at sears and auto parts stores
    They use metal wand at the end to transmit noise to the ear pieces...
    

    Unfortunately, I find myself an unhappy participant in this note.
    Last night my husband and I heard something in the walls of our house.
    At first we thought "mice".  But after a while (read: all night long)
    chewing sounds kept us awake.  I don't think it's mice, unless it's
    mice with very LARGE teeth!
    
    The house is a 4 year old colonial, and the sounds are coming from
    between the 2 baths on the second floor.  There isn't a tree over
    3 feet tall within 150 feet of the house, so I can't figure out WHY
    a squirrel would want to run across the fields, climb the outside of
    the house, and then find some way to get in.  But my husband thought
    that if it were mice, we'd have heard them first on the lower floor.
    
    How can we get rid of this creature?  I read the notes about using
    mothballs, but do I have to get the mothballs into the wall where they
    are chewing?  I'm afraid to give them even a little hole into the rooms
    of the house, because I don't want them coming inside the house.  I
    have 2 very small kids, and all night was afraid the squirrels would
    get into the kids' rooms.  I really have no idea how they got in the
    house.  Since it's a fairly new house, I'm assuming we don't have alot
    of holes around (but then, I know very little about how construction
    techniques).
    
    Also, this might be a dumb question, but if this creature chews on
    wires, can it start a fire?
    
    Thanks for your help,
    Lynne

Do you KNOW that its a squirell?

I had a BAT in my house.  I heard a strange scratching sound and the next thing
I knew "Grandpa Munster" was dive bombing my head!

In this case the bat could be stuck in your wall - just a thought.

-Al

    A few years ago, I had a baby squirrel in the house. Got a rat trap and
    put it in a closet near where the squirrel was. The next morning, I had
    a dead squirrel and no more problems. Fortunately, it didn't bring any
    siblings along with it.
    
    Ray

    The house is a 4 year old colonial, and the sounds are coming from
    between the 2 baths on the second floor. 

	    The pipes for these bathrooms should run from the basement
	up to the attic and will be in sort of an open box.  The vent 
	(or stink) pipe should be amongst these pipes and will extend 
	through the roof, making the box easier to locate.  Your furry
	little friend, whatever he may be, must have taken up residency 
	inside this box.  
	    If you can access these pipes easily, planting mothballs 
	shouldn't be too difficult.  The problem is figuring out where
	and how your guest entered the house so you can block any 
	future access.  It would be a good idea to make sure you evict
	whatever it is so that it doesn't die inside the house.
	    You may be able to find a hole of some sort by going into
	the attic on a bright day and turning off all the lights.  Make
	sure all vents have screens covering them and that there are no 
	gaps where gaps don't belong.  It's also possible that Rocky
	came in through the basement, although unlikely.

					Tim

My friendly squirrels entered by chewing a hole in the ridge vents, through
the screen and into the attic.  Don't have them now...but they liked playing
with the mothballs in our attic.  A rat trap got a few of them, if you use this
remember to wire it to a nail so they can't travel far.  Once I was sure they
were not in the house a wire mesh now keeps them out.

-Jay

    
    Sometime ago I had some squirrels decide to nest in my soffit. A friend 
    inquired how my weekend had gone and I replied with the following true
    story. (My apologies if I posted this earlier...)
    
    Mind you, I *like* the squirrels, woodchucks, raccoons, skunks, etc.
    that inhabit the woods behind my house. (I only hate ANTS!!!) Watching
    them gives me a lot of pleasure.
    
    Edd
    
    
...waiting for my coffee to heat Sunday morning, I hear *something* near
the window over the sink. Not in the house, not outside, but somewhere in
between. I slam a cupboard door and hear something scurry. A quick look
out the window shows the shadow of a squirrel standing on the roof.

Later that day, I once again hear noises. That's it, as much as I like 
watching the little creatures frolicing in the trees, I'd really prefer
not to share my house with them. So, out I go...

Sure enough, there's a hole in the roof overhang big enough to let a 
squirrel in. I grab a rake and bang the house. A raucous screech eminates
from the hole. Another bang. Another screech. Bang. Screech. Bang. Screech.
But no squirrel. Little sucker refused to leave.

So how do I get him out? Ha, I get a long piece of pipe from the cellar, stick
one end in the hole, and light up a smoke. Exhaling into the pipe, I figure this
will roust the beast. Three cigarettes later I've accomplished nothing more
than developing a nasty cough, and the squirrel remains.

Plan B. Get a long plumber's snake from the cellar and stick it in the hole.
Nice idea! Unfortunately it's too flexible to allow me to get it in, so I have
to get a ladder. From my lofty vantage I can get the snake into the squirrel's
lair. As soon as the device is thru the door the panic starts. My house guest
starts screaming and (apparently, for I can't see in the hole) running around.
After a good 1/2 hour of this aggravation, I remove the snake. Senor squirrel,
obviously no fool, uses this opportunity to escape. He bolts out the hole, and
runs headlong into manthing. Neither one of us had quite taken this contingency
into account, so the surprise was mutual. Manthing dives from the ladder while
the squirrel tumbles to the ground.

The furry rodent, obviously displeased, first chases me across the yard, then
heads back towards the house with me in pursuit. Finally cornering the beast, I
now wonder just what the heck to do. My question is answered promptly as the
squirrel activates little rockets in it's feet and climbs straight up the 
outside of the chimney and goes BACK IN THE HOLE!!!

Great...

...so back up the ladder goes manthing with the snake. Back in the hole,
and the scene repeats. Finally the rodent emerges for a second time, but
rather than going down, it runs to the top of the chimney. Realizing this
is no ordinary squirrel, I pull out all the stops and grab the garden hose.
Taking carefull aim, I blast the beast with a powerfull jet of water, knocking
him off the chimney to the roof, where a second blast convinces him to leap
to the ground. Running on pure adrenalin, I continue to blast the sucker during
the freefall which spins him around. When he finally reaches earth he's lost
all sense of direction and runs straight at me. I defend myself with the hose
while the squirrel starts making giant leaps into the air in a vain attempt
to escape the watery onslaught. Finally realizing the error of his ways, he
runs up a tree and proceeds to scold me for my deeds. Sorry Mr. Squirrel.

Tired and wet, I grab a small board and a hammer and nails and proceed back up
the ladder to close the hole. One bang of the hammer and SCREEECH!!! Why, it
seems Mr. Squirrel was trysting in my soffit! Argh, there's a second one!

...another 20 minutes with the plumber's snake convinces the second one to
evacuate, only when this one hits the ground it doesn't head for the woods.
Au contraire! This one heads up the ladder I'm standing on! Visions of
a rabid, frothing_at_the_mouth, insane Cujo cum Rocky racing thru my head,
I fly up the ladder to the roof. My attacker stops 2 rungs from the top
and screams at me. The little creep has *me* cornered! I cautiously approach
the ladder and try to shake the rodent off. Ha. Fat chance. So I flip the ladder
over. Nice. My furry assasin falls to the ground and runs around the side of the
house.

Once down from the roof, I grab the house and run to the side. I take aim and
let go with a volley. Direct hit!! The beast spins and tumbles in the stream
of water. Wait! He recovers and takes off like a bat outta hell, RIGHT INTO 
THE CELLAR.

I enter just in time to see him take cover under a water tank. Not wanting
to get too close to this gray devil, I push the tank with my foot. Screams
ensue. Another push. More screams. At this point I'm wondering just what I'm
going to do when he finally realizes this is not a good place to be. How am
I gonna get him out. Alas, my concern was moot as it seems the weight of the
moving tank was more than the little guy could bear. Moving the tank, I see
my enemy mortally wounded, gasping for air. Now I feel like a murderer.
Removing his broken body from the house, I feel pretty sad. No way this
little squirrel is going to live, so I take him to the edge of the forest,
stroke him like a pet cat for a minute, and end his misery. To add to my guilt,
the first squirrel, apparently a her, not a him, is screaming at me from the
tree as I do the deed...

My joy at ridding the house of the animals somewhat diminished, I head back 
up the ladder to finally close in what once was a happy squirrel home. One
bang of the hammer and, you guessed it, ANOTHER one! This one also resists 
exiting so I poke around in the hole and start ripping the nest out piece 
by piece. Finally realizing the I'm serious about the eviction proceedings
the third beast makes a mighty jump to the ground. Experienced by now, I leap
from the ladder and grab the hose. Within a couple minutes I've convinced
this one to head for the woods, and a soggy, decidedly un-bushy tailed 
squirrel runs for his life.

Further poking reveals no more so I seal up the hole while two very angry
squirrels sit in a tree and prosecute me for my crimes. At 9:00 last night
they were still presenting their case. I fully expect to be convicted...

    All summer long I've been watching these chipmunks run up and down my
    stairs and going under my porch deck.  I thought that they were making
    a nest under the house or in the ground.  I've been hearing some
    scratching in the wall of my bathroom and in the ceiling.  I've also
    found some insulation material on the floor in my living room, right on
    top of where they run under the porch.  I have set up some mouse traps
    and put peanut butter on them but they have not been touched.  Now I
    have had mice before and the traps usually work fine.  My question is,
    how do I get these chipmonks to move out?  If I have to use some kind
    of poison, thats O.K., but I have heard that these little guys are real
    smart and won't go for it.
    
    Any suggestions?
    

    Thanks for the info, I will pick one up and try it.  Was that popcorn
    plain or did you butter it up?
    
    Dom

    Well, I was just wondering if I should buy a couple cases of beer,
    some cheese and crackers with some summer sausage of course and
    rent a couple of movies... 8^)  Now if I could only teach my dog to 
    fetch me a beer................
    
    
    Thanks again for your response...
    
    Dom 

    Don't be fooled into thinking that those chipmunks are cute or
    anything like that... 

    Just remember that they're rats in sport coats!

    Charly

>                     <<< Note 5528.1 by NOTAPC::RIOPELLE >>>
>                       -< Try popcorn ( gourmet works ) >-
>
>     Both mom and her kids were all relocated to a veeeeery large wooded
>    area far away. Trap works great.
    
Note that relocation is not always the humane solution its adherants claim.
You are dislocating social groups, some teritorial, who may not be able
to integrate into the new area.  (Euphemisms for "they'll die anyway.")

Moving certain large varmints (raccoons, for example) is ILLEGAL in some areas.

- tom]

    
    actually, moving any live, wild animals in Ma is illegal and subject to
    a fine.
    
     Bob

When we were having raccoon problems, my wife called the animal control people.
They said they couldn't relocate an animal "unless it was in trouble" but that
if we were to trap an animal it would be in trouble and they could relocate it.

     A Havahart (sp?) trap baited with peanut butter on crackers works well
    for catching squirrels in the attic, but be sure to put it on top of
    a good sized platform, like a piece of plywood a couple of feet square.
    The squirrels go wild trying to get out, and shake it all over, and
    chew into anything that is nearby; also they piss if trapped too long,
    or die and spread fluids if left really long.. 'Course you will hear
    them in the trap, they will be going nuts, normally..
    
    Easiest thing to do once you catch one is fill up a large trash can
    with water, and drop the whole trap in and drown them.  Otherwise you
    have to watch out when you release them, so they don't bite you. My
    aunt in another state does it as often as needed... They just look
    dead + wet, and you can throw them in the trash.. Shooting them is a lot
    more grisly...
    
    

    I heard of a person who tossed the trap, animal and all off a bridge.:
    :-)
    
    Have also heard it referred to as a Give-a-Crap trap.
    
    Oh well, just one of those days.
    
    ed

    Well, I baught the Haveahart trap and it has not worked...  The little
    bugger has now eaten a whole in my wall about 3 inches long and has
    been seen inside my living room.  I think I pissed him off when I
    blocked off the other side of the house (Another escape root) by putting 
    crushed stone along the whole side of my house (I did this for drainage).
    I know he can still get in and out from under the porch.  I just have no 
    access to that area unless I want to do alot of digging ect. which I may 
    have to do anyways.
    
    Dom

Alright,  I didn't want to suggest it before, in fear of being labled cruel to
animals, but...  Go down to your friendly Sears sporting goods department and
pick up a Crossman air rifle.  

The chipmunks will presents themselves a easy targets because the like to sun
themselves outside.  If you have any stone walls around, this is a likely place
to look for them.  They also like to make loud chirping sounds that can lead you
right to them.

And try not to feel to bad, chipmunks are just furry tailed rats with racing
stripes.

    I have a pellet air rifle from Kmart already...  I just don't have much 
    time to wait around for the little guy to pop up around.  If I had cats
    insted of a Dog, I know I would not have a problem.  My neighbor tried
    to bring some of his cats over but they won't stick around because of
    my dog.;(   My neighbor finds dead chip monks on his property all the
    time because his cats love to catch and kill them...
    
    Dom
    
    

    swap animals for a week...

    Thanks to the advice in this note and a few others, we decided to try
    mothballs to get rid of the squirrels in our roof/walls. It's been two
    days, and I haven't heard anything. But this doesn't necessarily mean
    they're gone.
    
    My question is this: if the squirrel was going to return to its
    (their?) nest, when would it do so? Are they nocturnal, so they'd
    normally be in their nest at night? When's the best time to listen for
    them. (I've heard them around 6pm in the past, but that could just be
    when I'm around.)
    
    I understand that I not only have to get the squirrel out of our roof,
    but I have to get it not to consider our roof its home. Is that right?
    Is it true that if I patch up the hole (was going to use tin) and the
    squirrel thinks of it as home, it'll just gnaw through somewhere else?
    
    Thanks.
    
    Cathy

    	We had flying squirrels in our attic a while ago. I tried trapping
    them with a Have-a-hart trap without much success. There was just to
    many of them and they wised up to the trap eventually.
    
    	They followed a vent pipe down and chewed their way into the house a
    couple of times. They would do their chewing and movement at night and
    the noise coupled with the fact that they managed to get in the house a
    couple of times terrified my oldest daughter (even though the cat
    caught them in fairly short order).
    	
    	Eventually, it left me with no other choice but to poison them. If
    you have a grey squirrel, you may have more luck with the trap/relocate
    method. The grey's don't seem to be as nocturnal as their flying
    cousins, meaning that they tend to be more active during the day. As time 
    goes on, they'll start to settle into your attic as we get closer to fall 
    and winter. Get them out now before that happens and you may get lucky.
    
    	Good luck....Ray

    I am going to call the number is the previous reply but I thought I'd
    give this note a shot too.
    
    For the third time in the last two weeks I have been awakened from the
    worse skunk smell ever.  The last time I didn't even have the windows
    open in my room but the porch in our back yard which is three rooms
    away from my bedroom.
    
    I don't see how they can be living under the porch as it covered with
    lattice.  I live next to a lake and we have a wooded lot (with a stone
    wall) separating our back yard from the lot.  This past few weeks is
    the first time we have had a problem.  I have lived here for a year in
    December and have yet to see any skunks.
    
    1.	Do you think that my cats are in the windows at night in the porch 
    	and are scaring the skunk making it spray? 
    
    2.	What are the possibilities that the skunk is living in our backyard
        or the lot behind us if we haven't had problems in the last 10 months?

    3.  We have loads of birds, squirrels, cats and children in our 
        neighborhood.  Can I use the hanging soak with mothballs on
        the trees without worrying about the other animals?    
    
    Help please!  I can't stand being awakened from this rechid smell!
    
    cj

    	I know of one way to get rid of them, but you're not likely to like
    it very much. You can trap them with a Have-a-hart trap, cover the trap
    with a blanket, and either relocate them or dispose of them.
    
    	Supposedly, skunks have to lift their tail in order to spray, and
    they can't do this in the trap. Cat food is the bait of choice.
    
    	It may be illegal to relocate the animals. You'd have to check with
    your local F+G. Suprisingly, it may not be illegal to kill them. Weird.
    
    	Ray

>>    	Supposedly, skunks have to lift their tail in order to spray, and
>>    they can't do this in the trap. Cat food is the bait of choice.
    
Don't believe this one minute.  We were trapping them for a couple years
and disposing of them in a deep water tank.  The skunks hunker down as 
flat as they can get inside the trap so they can lift their tail and squirt.  
My husband got blasted right in the face (luckily he had glasses on).  

> Don't believe this one minute.  We were trapping them for a couple years
> and disposing of them in a deep water tank.

	What do you mean by "disposing"?  Does "deep water tank" imply
	you drowned them??

>>	What do you mean by "disposing"?  Does "deep water tank" imply
>>	you drowned them??

What follows may bother or gross some people out so beware....

We were told by the DoW that if we trap a nuisance wild animal we had to 
dispose of them because we could not transport the critter into another 
neighborhood or out into the country.  If we trapped them, we had to find 
a way to dispose of them and they suggested spraying them with ether then 
drowning them.  We trapped so many (6 in about a month during our 1st year
of trapping) and we didn't care for the reaction the ether gave them so we 
did direct drowning.  DoW said it was OK to skip the ether.  I know it is 
not nice but in Colorado, skunks and bats are the #1 carriers of rabies.  

Once the skunks are established, the moth balls soaked in Pinesol(tm) [cheaper
substitute brands haven't worked for us] does NOT do anything to keep them
away.  After the 1st time of smelling them, we put out socks of moth balls
and they don't seem to care enough to return.  

DoW said the primary reason the skunks are moving into the neighborhood is
because people are leaving their outdoor cat's food outside at night and
are attracting the skunks.  Another reason is alot of people are not clearing
their utility easements of weeds and grasses from behind their homes and
it gives the critters perfect housing.  :-(  

So if you or a neighbor are leaving cat food out at night, you might think
about bringing it in.  And clear out those nasty weeds and grasses.  Besides
looking ugly and being a fire hazard when they dry, they look like home to
smelly critters.  

I once asked a minister friend of ours why God created skunks.  He said God 
must of had a bad day and also created the avocado on the same day since the 
pit is so large and very little `meat' is on an avocado.  ;-)

Judy

    .31:
    
�        but in Colorado, skunks and bats are the #1 carriers of rabies.  

    Please encourage your DoW to check recent research.
    
    The statements that up to a third of bat populations carry rabies was
    based on some research done back in the '30's.  Some researchers
    have offered evidence that such figures were based on tests which
    registered positive for both rabies and at least one other disease or
    pathogen (i.e., the test couldn't distinguish between the two).
    
    It would be analogous to a TB test which registered positive for
    tuberculosis and the common cold -- and explain how so many bats could
    appear to be healthy while infected with a disease which usually kills
    in fairly short order.
    
    If memory serves, this recent research (perhaps 5 or 6 years old by
    now) suggested that the rabies rate among bats was something like 3%
    or 5%, and not the 20% and 30% which people have bandied about for
    decades.
    
    
    As for skunks, I have no information -- sorry!
    
    Dick

    	Re:spraying from traps
    
    	Maybe it depends on the trap size. I have a friend that trapped
    them also, and either he was very lucky (trapped 13 of them), or his
    trap was smaller. In any case, none of them sprayed him. Obviously,
    YMMV.
    
    	Ray

RE:                         -< Smaller trap ? >-

The last skunk we trapped was the granddaddy of them all and would not have
fit into a smaller trap.  He barely squeezed into the trap and filled the
whole thing up, all around and the total length.  And he still hunkered his 
rearend down and sprayed away.  :-(

Try keeping a light on at night under the porch and any other areas where they 
might find comfortable sleeping quarters.  It worked for us.

Dave

    Gee, I wouldn't mind getting a baby desented skunk but here in MA
    one can't.  ;*(

    
    In note .7, something called N-odor deodorant was mentioned -
    does anyone know what that is (if it's a name brand) and where
    I can get it?  My golden retriever had a run-in with a skunk
    on Monday night.  Most of the smell is gone but there is
    still some and I'd like to try something to kill theodor
    in those parts of the house. When I took her to the groomers
    in the morning, they said to using a neutralizing spray, but
    couldn't give me the name of one - none of the ones in the
    store said anything about "neutralizing"  
    
    Also, my nylon Lands-End brief case seems to be holding on to 
    the smell,is ther any hope of getting it out or should I throw
    the brief case away.
    
    
    Thank you for any help,
    Sue
    

    Poor Theodor....why do you want to kill him? :-)

    Our neighbor's dog used to get involved with skunks
    (until he died of old age).  They would give him
    tomato-juice baths to get rid of the odor.
    
    I've heard it's the vitamin C in tomato juice that
    kills the smell.  If so, you could probably achieve
    the same results by mixing up some of the vitamin C
    power that some pharmacies sell.
    

    There is a stuff you can by at any grain store called Odor Mute that is
    excellent.  It is a powder that is about $3.00 a box and it's one table
    spoon to a gallon of water.  It's great.  If you are local, Erikssons
    grain mill in Acton has it.
    
    Mark
    

EG The place I work at sells a product called "Skunk-Off!"

						Trace

  I would prefer to start a new topic for the following, but I can't, so...
  I live in an apartment-type condo. For years there has been a gap between
the roof and the side thru which squirrels could get partly out of the cold.
And lots of them did. Last month we had a new roof put in, which plugged up
the gaps.
  I have a built-in A/C unit that is flush with the exterior wall. So do the
other 35 units. About one day in five, around 7 am, a squirrel grabs onto the
exterior of the A/C and pokes around. I assume they are drawn to the warmth
that is escaping from the room. I am usually sleeping at this time, and the
noise is a major disturbance.
  If I am up at the time, I bang on the A/C unit. The squirrel jumps away
quickly, then comes back 5 minutes later. Usually after I scare it away for
the third time, it gets discouraged and stays away for the rest of the day.
  Is there anything I can do to prevent this? Such as a repellent substance?
I can just barely reach the exterior of the A/C from the window, so maybe I
can hang something on it. I don't want to put a cover over the A/C because
it's too much trouble to put it on in the fall and take it off in the spring.
(I have trouble persuading the maintenance company to do essential maintenance,
and I know they would not cooperate with something "trivial" like this.)

    	If it is in fact the escaping heat that attracts them, you could 
    put some sort of insulated cover on the inside of the unit to further 
    minimize the heat loss. That should be relatively easy to do.
    
    	Another thing you could try is a plastic owl or cat perched on top 
    of the unit. You can probably rig something up so that you can use a
    pole with a hook on the end to place it there. Eventually, they may get 
    wise to it, but it might be worth a try.
    
    	There has been mention of moth balls or ammonia with some level of
    success. If the unit is not well sealed on the inside, it may carry some 
    of those fumes into the house though.
    	
    	Lastly, they do sell those ultrasonic gizmos. I don't know how
    well, or even if, they work. Too bad there wasn't some way to electrify
    the outside of the unit and zap them. Wouldn't take too many times
    before they got the idea ;-)
    
    	Ray

>    	Another thing you could try is a plastic owl or cat perched on top 
>    of the unit. You can probably rig something up so that you can use a
>    pole with a hook on the end to place it there. Eventually, they may get 
>    wise to it, but it might be worth a try.
    
    In the case of squirrels, "eventually" is translated to "in about
    two minutes".

The ultrasonic things don't work. 

It could be the squirrels are hungry, maybe if you put some
food out away from your unit they will stay away. There
is a shortage of acorns this year.


-Mike

    shortage of acorns? nah....
    
    I could hardly walk across my lawn for fear of slipping on them during
    the fall. And I filled a large (33 gal?) trash barrel with them just 
    from ONE tree (and then I couldn't move the barrel and had to empty it
    out somewhat before I could get rid of them!)
    
    Not that this does the squirrels much good today with all the snow, but
    that's another matter. :-)
    
    - Richard.

    If you live in a condo unit, don't use mothballs.  My son when he was 4
    or 5 ate some that were in a neighbors yard. We had to rush him to the
    hospital and have his stomach pumped.  I never would have believed a
    child could get one near his mouth let alone eat one, but he did.  A
    condo complex probably has kids about so from a safety point of view
    don't throw mothballs out there.
    
    Brian
    
    PS we at first did not beleive my other two kids that the youngest ate
    mothballs until we smelled his breath, it was the scariest ride to a
    hospital ever made.

    i used a .22 with flats.  worked every time.

     .22 w/rat shot -- max effective range is 20-30'

A "quality" air pistol using pointed pellets is deadly to rodents and 
repeatedly accurate at least to 30ft.  And very quiet.

Dave

    
    Well I hit one of the four squirrels (who are slowly destroying my
    house) with a pellet pistol rated at 610fps from about 20' -- several
    times.  It got his attention but didn't kill 'im.  The .22 rat shot 
    on the other hand....
    
    I'm still doing battle with two of them.
    

    re: last
    
    
    Sounds like you're shooting at the wrong end of the squirrel ;^). 
    

    i too tried the air gun approach.  gimme flats.
    
    actually would have preferred a full choke 12gauge, but didn't want to
    indulge in roof repair ...

    	A friend borrowed my Crossman 2100 (790 fps w/10 pumps) and killed
    a grey squirrel with a single shot from ~20 yards using a BB. Sounds 
    cruel, but you need a head shot if you're going to go this route.
    
    	Ray

re air pistols....

I'm not so sure that the muzzle velocity is key; probably more the accuracy of
the shot and, to a certain extent, the weight of the pellet.  I have no problem
dropping squirrels at 30'-35' using my RWS-5 air pistol.  It has a muzzle
velocity of only 450fps, but is incredibly accurate (using match grade
pellets) so I can get head hits.

A "body hit" with flat head target pellets MIGHT break a rib, the hollow-point
pellets WILL break bones, and the pointed pellets will penetrate.  I don't have 
much use for the hollow point nor the pointed pellets so I go for a head shot
from around 30'-35'.  Assuming the varmint stays still while the present is
being delivered [ NOT a valid assumption ], a 2nd hit is not necessary. 

FWIW

Dave