Conference 7.286::home_work

A realtor friend told me an interesting trick for accurately dating a house
built within the last 30-50 years:

    Look for a date stamp on the underside of the toilet tank cover.

The theory behind this is (1) it's usually easy to determine if a bathroom
has been remodeled since the house was built, (2) most American-made
toilets are date stamped, and (3) it's usually a very short time between
manufacturing and installation.

I realize that this doesn't help much with old houses, but it's a neat trick.
I used this technique to date major renovations to our 1870's house.

-- Ward

re: .1

Hey .. neat trick. Seems it could be especially useful when looking at
a prospective house.

Sills (upon which the house rests, goes between the top of foundation and
house).

I recently had an experienced "restoration carpenter" (he is now restoring
a house built in 1768.) HE told me, that even in the early 1800's, the sills
were not more than 8" x 8". The sills on my house are about 12" x 12", and
appear to be cedar (albeit they have somewhat decayed over the years). His
advice to me was to not replace the sills unless they MUST be replaced due
to sagging and etc.

The main roof truss (top beam) has five sides, with the roof boards nailed
to 2 of the sides, the the other two "facing down sides" are notched for
the eaves, and the bottom flat is just there.
                                             
One pecuiliarity on this POST & BEAM construction.
In the barn (which I think is older than the main house), instead of just
tenon and mortise, the tenon goes through the post, with a wood block
cap over it, and a peg through the tenon and the wood block. The block
has a saddle like "U" shape to it.	

Does anyone know when this type of practice was common ?


							Bob_the_hiker

So far, I've been able to authenticate the property "with house" back to
1884.
  

You might try looking in the tax assessor's office to see when taxes were
changed due to construction.  There must be a file somewhere of old county
maps that list the location of the buildings along the roads.  Something
similar to the Coast & Geodetic Survey Maps (NOAA?).

What was the outcome of the 12 x 12 sills?  You mentioned that they were
never over 8 x 8 even in the early 1800's and that yours are 12 x 12.  Does
that mean your house is older? or newer? or ??

BB

re: .3

That's what I'm trying to find out ! What is the significance of the
size of the beams used as sills.  As point of intersest, the "Indoor
Plimbing" in the old barn is still intact, complete with wallpapered
room, double holer seats, and a vent box up throught the roof.

The "effluent" used to go into the manure pile that was also in the
barns' cellar (walk in).

I tried to check my cellars foundation thickness (field stone), and it's
about 24" thick (+/-).


There's also an old "cesspool" for the newer bathroom that predates the
town sewer system.

"Sounds" like those should be good records (town sewer, and town water).

   

Town Records: Sometimes at library (Old Books section, or historical society).

There are two (or more) types of town records:

Taxes, and the annual report, which even includes the names of students
of the smaller schools (sometimes), and the number of times absent/tardy.
Also dog licenses !

The census is also available, too, as are the street records.

Unfortunately, for unnumbered streets, only the street name appears showing
someone lived on a particular street. In the case of my house, the address
appears THREE different ways, because it is on the corner of two streets.
It is also possible there was another house on the property "way back when".

It is very interesting detective work, because the personality of the former
inhabitants "sort of" comes through.
          

Although this method won't "date" a house, it will tell if the window
glass is original, and is a pretty novel idea I heard of:

tap the window in question at various locations on the pane. If the top
sounds the same as the bottom, the pane is relatively new. If the top
has a higher pitched tone, then the pane is quite old. This is because
glass is actually a very viscous fluid, and will 'flow' over the years.
Gravity makes the top of the pane thin out, and the bottom of the pane
gets thicker, giving it the lower pitch tone.

I've heard that about glass 'flowing' also.  Fine Homebuilding had a letter 
about it about a year ago.  It seems that some people did some tests on glass
panes and found that they _do not_ 'flow' at all.  The reason that the glass
is thicker at the bottom of old windows is this:  Back then, glass was made by
hand, and it varied considerably in thickness.  When carpenters made windows,
it just made sense to them to put the thick side down, like shingles.

You still ought to be able to date your windows by this method, though.

Paul

    I question if the people you mention really did some tests of their
    own, or merely did some reading and came to the wrong conclusion.
    
    From the book "Glass and Glass Manufacture" by Percival Marson on
    page 20 it states that chemically glass is a "supercooled liquid".
    Now if you know of a liquid that does not "flow" then they may be
    correct. 
    
    However my first guess as to why they were discounting the idea of the
    glass flowing is this: The same reference talked about the early glass
    panes not having a uniform thickness. The people quoted above took that
    piece of information, not realizing that glass is a liquid, and came to
    the conclusion that the glass doesn't flow, but that the installers
    placed that way. 
    
    Also, if they did perform some experiments on whether glass flows
    or not, they may not have waited long enough, as this would have
    to take place over a number of years.
    
    			- - -  Karl Brack

As I remember the letter, it sounded more responsible than that.  Yes, glass is 
a supercooled liquid, and thus can potentially flow.  They did do experiments 
over some reasonably large period of time, and determined with some very 
accurate measuring devices that glass would not flow enough in the several 
hundred years between when those windows were put in and now to be noticable 
with the naked eye.

Paul

    	I don't know about dating a house but I do know where to find old
    things.If what your talking about here is an in the barn out house
    go down under the barn directly under the seats and start digging.I
    know this sounds disgusting and crazy but all the old waste has
    by now broken down and decayed so you'll just be digging in dirt.
    What youll probably find is a wealth of old bottles (some that might
    be worth some money),and other old things that are collectables.
    Out houses where favorite places for throwing things away,and many
    a person would go into one and polish off a bottle of brew and 
    throw the bottle down the hole.
    
    					Happy hunting
    					M.O'Brien
    
    

    I was able to date my house by perusing old plot plans at the registry
    of deeds.  My house was absent from any plot plan through 1885 and
    appeared on the 1890 plot plan.  I've also been told that often
    carpenters will scratch a number on the floor joists indicating
    when they were building the house.  I found a number of "7"s on
    my floor joists so I'm assuming 1887 as the construction date. 
    I've also found names and dates written on the walls underneath
    wallpaper I've removed.

                                                                  
    Kevin

    	I've been looking at buying a house.  The only ones that I've
    seen and can afford are small.  On saturday I stumbled across a
    100 year old colonial in my price range.  It has three large bedrooms,
    a large kitchen, a dining room and living room.  The house is need of a
    general face lift but seems to be structurally sound.  My idea is
    that with work I can have a much bigger and nicer house than I can
    now afford.  I would have it inspected before I buy.  My question is:  
    What am I getting myself into?
	The wiring has been updated 15 years ago, roof is 8 years old
    and the bathroom was replaced 2 years age.  The heat
    by FHA oil and is 15 years old.  The foundation is stone but looks
    dry.  My general plan is to redo one room every 6 months for the
    next two years.  My father and I plan to do most of the work.  
    We don't see any projects that we can't handle.  My
    budget will allow for about $100-150/mo for general house fix up.
    I am not trying to restore the house, just redo some walls, floors
    and add a few closets (didn't 19th century people have clothes?)
    	My main fear is that I will discover a major problem too late
    that will break my finances.  I plan to have the house inspected, 
    but I am still worried.  I have always lived in new houses and know
    little about quirks in old homes.  Any advice would be helpful.
    Please hurry I'll be making an offer wednesday or thrusday.
    
    						Thanks,
    						Ralph Palmer
    
    
    					A maybe soon to be DYI'er

For the price, for the sense of history, for the workmanship (often 
superior, always unique), for the space, for lots of reasons, old houses 
have it all over new ones.  Flames (gulp!) invited.

For inspiration, ideas, and help, subscribe to the Old House Journal.  
Unless your public library is very convenient, you'll soon find yourself 
sending away for their entire back issue file.

One excellent OHJ hint is to make sure at least one room is very 
attractively livable at all times, a refuge from missing floorboards
underfoot and falling plaster dust overhead.

> I would have it inspected before I buy.

Absolutely, a must.  If the inspector makes disparaging comments about the 
age of the house, get another inspector.

You mention wiring, roof, bathroom, and heat as being practically new, 
compared with the age of the house.  You'll double-check 'em all, of 
course, for shoddy modern workmanship or materials.

Some other major things that can go wrong:

1. Plumbing.  One gotcha is that if you'll keep the house at a lower
temperature than previous owners have, you're more likely to have pipes 
freeze in the winter.  The previous owners of our house never had trouble 
with the pipes in the un-insulated chase on the north outside wall, because 
they had a succession of babies in the house, and kept the heat at 75!

2. Water heater.

3. Was the FHA ductwork installed 15 years ago, or just the furnace?  I
assume not much can go wrong with FHA ducts.  But installing them in an old 
house can involve cutting through joists, and if not correctly done can 
seriously weaken the structure.  Same is true, to a lesser extent, of new 
wiring and plumbing.

4. Check chimneys for signs of failing brickwork, wherever you can get at
them, indoors and out.  See elsewhere in this file (or was it TOOLS?) for
comments on chimney fires becoming house fires because of missing mortar. 

5. If the house has a sump pump, make sure it works.  If there isn't one,
make sure you have a plan for bailing out the cellar.  It's been a dry
spring, not a good test of spring thaw flooding.  Basements are usually so
grubby that they quickly hide signs of all but the worst floods. 

6. If there's a well and/or septic system, find out about these.  Very 
expensive to fix in a panic.

7. Yard work:  are any old trees about to fall on the house?  Are there any
landscaping problems that might cause basement flooding or foundation erosion? 

8. If you have any thoughts about building an addition, find out how close
the house comes to the lot lines, and how much closer the town will let you
build.  If you're thinking of increasing the load significantly on the
electrical (air conditioning? power tools?), plumbing, or heating systems,
now's the time to think about capacity. 

9. Major kitchen appliances, especially if they're gas-powered.

10. Old properties in old neighborhoods have funny easements, liens, and so 
forth.  You'll hire a lawyer, of course.

11. Exterior paint and/or modern wonder siding.  Even weatherproof-sided 
houses have wood trim, and trim failure can allow enough weather 
infiltration to cause structural damage.

Your budget for DIY efforts is only a little on the low side of realistic, 
especially if you have most of the tools you'll need.  Make sure you have a 
cash cushion for quick replacement of that water heater, for example - some 
repairs won't wait until next month.

re tools:  don't skimp on safety-related items - new and better stuff 
coming out all the time.  If you're going to work in the evenings, you'll 
need good work-lighting, and plenty of extension cords - in the room where 
you're working, the electricity should be off!

Plan to put effort into isolating the dirt and noise of the construction
area from the rest of the house.  Time well spent.

I hope you get along well with your father - you'll be seeing a lot of him.

> (didn't 19th century people have clothes?)

Yes, and they stored them in wardrobes.  You might look into some of these 
in antique stores - prices compare favorably with constructing closets, and 
they're much classier.  Make sure to go for ones big enough to hold hangers
- before hangers were invented, clothes were hung from hooks, and wardrobes
could be any old size. 

>    	My main fear is that I will discover a major problem too late
>    that will break my finances.  I plan to have the house inspected, 
>    but I am still worried.  I have always lived in new houses and know
>    little about quirks in old homes.  

Horrible things can go wrong with new houses too, frequently for 
less-predictable reasons.  Home ownership is expensive; one of the costs is
major, unexpected maintenance.  The better you know your house and its
systems, the more likely it is that you can anticipate such problems, but
nothing is certain. 

The main structure of this house has stood for a century, through
hurricanes, wars, and even the King administration [outside Massachusetts, 
substitute your local equivalent].  Keep your eyes open, and go for it. 

    Well, .1 should alleviate any fears,concerns,etc. The company doing
    the inspection should do a thorough job and find anything that is
    likely to need attention in the near future. Good luck.
    
    	Steve
    

    If it has a well, get the water tested (guess how I know....)
    
    Investigate the septic system with a suspicious eye.
    
    Neither one should keep you from buying the house, but they may
    give you leverage to haggle on a better price if you find problems.
    
    Steve
    

    A little late for Bob's help, but if anyone wants to know: A good
    house inspection is time well spent, ESPECIALLY if you follow the
    inspector around and ask questions !
    
    I use "Commonwealth Home Inspections" out of worcester, and in 1-2
    hours I new more about how/what TO check than I had learned in the
    previous 20 years. Also, its nice to get a "second" opinion.
    
    I did buy my current house WITHOUT being inspected but only for
    some very specific special reasons. Even now, though, I still plan
    to get it inspected, but for other reasons, such as dating the
    house; getting opinions on "failure prone" items,and relative
    costs to repair.
    
    Best thing about home inspectors: Their "sole" (only) interest is
    the condition of the house from YOUR point of view, whereas contractors
    want to "sell" you something; city inspectors worry about code;
    etc.
    
    bob
    
    
    

	All you "lovers of homes with character":

  The wife and I have been looking for an "older" home without much luck.
  The "ideal" would be 100yrs+ COLONIAL with CHARACTER on 2+ acres of privacy.
  Commuting distance to Manchester, Merrimack N.H. +/- 30 minutes...

	Questions:  for those of you who may have such a treasure...

	How did you "happen" upon such a rare find?
	What are the more common major repairs on OLDER houses?
	Are you satisfied with your purchase?
	Any things to watch for?

  Any comments will be appreciated.

					-=Dennis
					      "Born 200 yrs too late"  

    How do you find one:  
    
    	Luck, mostly.  I happened to be going to the dump one Saturday
    	morning in February, and completely on the spur of the moment
    	I stopped at the real estate office "just to look around."
    	Four days later I'd bought a house that had been on the market
    	for about 9 months, but 9 months earlier I wasn't interested
        in buying a house.
    
    Common repairs:
    
    	I've got a sagging porch.  The old practice of supporting porches
    	with logs with bark still on them, sitting on flat rocks, doesn't
    	contribute longevity.  Windows may need reputtying.  More
    	insulation, almost certainly.  New roof?  If you need one, there
    	may be 4+ layers of shingles that have to come off, and rotten
    	boards under it all.  Basically, with an old house all bets
    	are open.
    
    Am I satisfied?  
    
    	Absolutely!  It's a heck of a lot of work though.  Be sure it's
        a nice location, because occasionally you may need to remind
        yourself that it's really worth all the work to be there.  It
        depends on the state of the house, of course.  Mine is actually
        in pretty good shape and I don't feel "owned by the house" very
        often.
    
    Watch out for:
    
    	Get the well tested!  (Guess how I know about that one....)
        A house inspection can be a good idea on an old house.  There
        aren't many things that are peculiar to an old house that you
        wouldn't possibly find in a newer house.  Possibly more concern
        about structural integrity.  Back in the days before building
        codes, people built them by gut feel and experience.  Depending
        on who the carpenter was doing the gut feeling, results could
        be superb or totally bogus.  There were just as many bad carpenters
        in the old days as now - it's just that most of the bad stuff has
        fallen down by now and all we see (generally) are the better
        examples of early houses.
    
    Steve
    

    Not to quibble over terminology, but a 100 year old house isn't
    likely to be colonial - it'll probably be Victorian, in this area
    usually Queen Anne.
    
    My impression is that older houses are not particularly rare on
    the market, but a real estate agent who will show them to you is.
    Agents get so used to people who won't buy old houses that they
    tend to ignore them.  Find a good one, and tell him or her what
    you're looking for.  Several times.  (A friend of mine was looking
    for a house and couldn't stand any of the ones he was being shown.
    Finally he said, "Look.  Show me the house that's been a drag on
    the market.  Show me the house you know you can't sell me."  The
    agent took him to a Frank Loyd Wright with a cistern in the basement
    that had been on the market for a year.  He bought it on sight.)
    
    Definitely get it inspected.  I bought my house despite the crack
    in the chiminey and the asbestos in the basement, but I'm glad to
    know they're there.
    
    	HRB

    A good friend of our just finished remodeling his old house.  Put
    it on the market and then bought another old house in the same town.
    
    He hasn't sold the one on the market yet.  He's had a few offers.
    Personally, I can't see why he's selling it, except to only do it
    all again with his "new" old house.
    
    It's located in Groton, MA on 5-6 acres.  It's approximately 30
    minutes to Merrimack,NH.  The house is listed with MRM Realty.
    

    Re: .0
    
    Not much more to add, except to be sure to get it inspected. See
    note #148 and following replies.
    
    As to how I got mine (ca, 1820 - guestimate -), was through a 
    friend-of-a-friend. The price was so rightt that I gave up all
    deposit and "almost" at closing on another piece of property.
    
    (But, I had "just been" over another house with a House
    Inspector that cost me about $150.00 for two hours time. I got more
    out o hat two hours time than in ten years of reading books
    and doing maintenance to another old house .. only 76 years old.)
    
    Its' about a ten room size, on an acre of land, and 45 minutes
    from Hudson NH, and the yearly taxes are quite low compared
    to Nashua, Merimack, or Concord NH.
    
    As  side note, I thought I needed to replace one of the "original"
    looking sills in the Far-Back shed, but since I had difficulty
    driving a 10-penny nail 1/2 way in, I figured it was ok. I know
    by approximation that this particular sill is "probably" more
    than 60 years old.
    
    Since I am friends with the former owner, I have been able to
    "authenticate"the house to 1884 when it was part of a 120 acre
    farm.
    
    I think some of the 8 x 8's in the barn are Tamarack (hard as iron).
    Impossible to drive a 6-penny spike more than an inch.
    
    The living room floor was "re_joisted" by the previous  occupant,
    and lots of wiring was done.
    
    Bob (see new note .. Old House Visits ...)
    
    

    An idea whose time is either passe' or a great way to spend some
    free time, and learn about fixing up older homes !
    
    Is there suffiecient interest amongst owners of "Old Houses"
    to share not only Hints/Tips on gettting things done; but also
    "on site" visits by other members of this notes file ?
    
    The purpose would be multifold:
    I believe I've been dilligent about trying to reconcile opinions
    about the date of construction, but if I were to see other
    houses which have been accuratley dated, I would get a better
    idea of just how old mine might "really" be.
    
    There are many ways to incorporate "modern" fixtures and appliances
    in older homes. Some to preserve the old house charm, and others
    to build a modern home in an old shell.
    
    There are several problems I've already solved in fixing up my home;
    but to describe these solutions in a file would require an ENORMOUS
    amount of time/typing ... then there'd still be tha question
    of how to adapt what I say to someone elses situation. With
    "on site" visits, people copuld "see" how someone did a particular
    thing, and he method of adaptation could become "obvious".

    For people (As in note previous to this one) who would like "more
    informaition" on selecting an older home, this could be an opportunity
    to see what others have acquired, and what they in turn might be
    looking for, and some pitfalls to watch out for.
    
    As many already know, sometime that magic home of greatest desire
    is not what is pictured in book, but what we walk into and see!
    
    Since this would be a "working tour" of sorts, I certainly would
    not think there would need to be much obseervance of "social graces",
    or retaliatory visitations ( ??? ).
    
    
  
    

    I like this idea!  My husband and I are mired in a renovation attempt
    right now, and seeing how others have overcome problems in their
    house renovations could be very helpful.  We've already learned
    a lot from people who have visited our house and offered advice
    based on their own experiences.
    
    I also like the idea of learning more about oldher homes in general
    from visits like these.  When we eventually move, we plan to buy
    another old house, and it would be nice if we could avoid some of
    the pitfalls associated with such a choice.  I'm afraid we didn't
    do a very good job this time around!
    
    Sandy
    
    

    	Well, it's now official.  My wife and I are the proud owners
    of a 125 year old Queen Anne Victorian.  I don't think that I would
    have had the courage to do it without this file!  Stay tuned for
    more naive questions from a DYI'er in training.  Thanks to all.

    	A party is definitely in the works...but we need some more time.
    The house is still a mess and my weekends are filled sailing.  Stay
    tuned until after labor day.  There is nothing I would like more
    than a bunch of DYI'er walking around giving advice.  
    
    						=Ralph=
    

    More hints -
    
    In Newton City Hall, I poured thru the engineering department's
    records of building permit applications construction plans which
    gave some basic drawings of planned construction for house additions,
    materials and cost estimates.  It also gave the owner for whom the
    job was being done.  Using this method, I've pieced together several
    structural changes back to 1901.  There were no records on file
    before that date.  In the Water Dept., down the hall, the clerk
    looked up my address in the log book and the first entry showed
    that the water was turned on in 1885. The builder's name was listed
    as well as when the bill was paid for original installation/turn-on
    fee.
    
    By noting the builder's name, (Henry Ross) I was able to research
    several other houses built by him in the 1880's and 90's.  We have
    so far, located two other houses which are twins to ours, one which
    is a reverse mirror image.  This is a Victorian-Queen Anne style.
    
    The City funded an audit of pre-1900 homes and published the results,
    with drawings of actual Newton homes representing different
    architectual styles in a 7-part series of soft-bound books. These
    cover the different sections of the city.  The Main Library in Newton
    has a small room with old maps, voter lists, city directories and
    other historical records useful to anyone dating a house or finding
    out about past owners and occupants.  The Historical Society in
    most towns have records, photographs, maps, genealogies of some
    prominent families, diaries etc.. also helpful in house research.
    The one in Newton often has a day when they help the public learn
    about their old houses and give hints and leads for doing research.
    
    Better stop before I get too carried away.
    
    JPM

      I own an old house (100+ years) which has sagged at certain 
    locations.  Doors don't line up with jams and ceiling lines are
    noticably not horizontal.  I am considering jacking up the low
    sections to make everything level.
    
      If anyone has had any experience with this type of thing, I would
    surely appreciate any advice or suggestions you might have.
    Specifically,  I was wondering:
    
       - At what rate should I jack up the low sections in order to
         minimize cracking the walls and ceiling at joints? One inch
         per day/week/month???
    
       - How deep and wide should the concrete footings for the support
         jacks be dug (I have a dirt floor in the cellar).
    
       - What's the best way to make sure when you've raised the low
         sections enough?
    
       - Should I leave things as they are before I cause myself more
         grief than it is worth?
    
    I figured that I would do this as soon as possible before trying
    to do any wallpapering or lining up doors with jams.  Can anyone
    help?
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    Steve
    
    
    
    
    

Wow...  Sounds like you're gonna be a busy cowboy for the next couple of 
years.

My father-in-law did this kid of thing in his house and the thought of 
it still terrifies me.  He has a 3 story house and rather than try to 
jack up any of the load bearing wall, he simply cut ALL the floor joists 
from the carrying beam, slapped a new beam under them (before he did 
the cutting) and jacked that up.  In this way he raised floors in one 
room at a time.  As for the jacks, he made them himself at work (he was 
a machinist) and they probaly weighed over 100 pounds apiece.  I think 
he was in his late 50's when he tackled this one...

Now if it were me, I'd have no idea where to start.

-mark

    It depends upon where the low areas are. I have a house about the
    same age as yours and had to jack several areas including an out
    side wall. Before you do anything check out each area that you want
    to jack, make sure that there is no rot of any kind responsible
    for the settleling. I didn't have to worry about putting footings
    under any of my jack posts, but the footings should be around
    10" x 36" x 36". As far as the amount per day that you should jack
    I wasn't sure about that my self. I talked to some one who did that
    sort of work, he recommended a couple of turns a day. It amounted
    to about 1/4 " per day. It gives you a chance to see what is happening.
    If everything seems to be going smoothly you can increase the rate.
    
    Just a word of caution you may not beable to get everything as
    level as you want. I my case I had to raise several sections. In
    one case it had to be raised 4" to make it level. I had to settle
    for 3".
                                                                
    
    dave

A box of marbles will find the low spots.
Just don't lose any, fixing the low spots. :^)

I have a friend who did his best with a 250+ year old house.  He
settled for making all of the floors planar, but not
necessarily level -- lots of shim shingles and pieces of
strapping under the flooring.  He needed to sure up some of the
joists and beams with parallel ones.  He also had to do plaster
work afterwards because some of the plaster was fairly recent
w.r.t.  the settling/sagging.

R.

    re: house jacks.
    
    BE CAREFUL.  I know a guy who has been doing it for years and one
    day last fall one of his screw-type jacks exploded as he was walking
    away from it.
    
    -joet

    I used to do this a lot with a very old summer place.  Here's my
    two bits worth.  First, do not leave the jacks in place (it takes
    too many jacks, they will rust in place, and it looks like the job
    was not finished).  Instead, put down 3ft deep foundation at least
    10" in diameter (below the frost line) where the final support will
    stand.  I am assuming that the sags will require additional supports
    than were supplied with the original construction. 
    
    Then as you raise portions of the house they can be solidly supported
    (and your jacks are lesslikely to explode when the piano is placed
    over it ...).  You will want to add increments of 1/2 to 2" each
    time you "elevate."   Use a level on window sils, door ways, and
    roof stringers - those are the important parts to keep level.
    
    Because you want to do this at your leisure you can raise the corners
    in sequence nw ne sw se ... ( i.e. NOT clockwise ).  Even raising
    it as little as 2" a shot will create a tendency to "walk" the house
    off its foundations, so you want to tune it carefully such as  nw2"
    n 2" ne 3" sw 4" s 4" se4" nw2" n2" ne1" .
    
    	Rick
    	Merrill
    
    

< Note 673.0 by EUCLID::PRINCE >
                       -< Jacking up sagging low spots? >-

>      I own an old house (100+ years) which has sagged at certain 
>    locations.  Doors don't line up with jams and ceiling lines are
>    noticably not horizontal.  I am considering jacking up the low
>    sections to make everything level.
    
>       - At what rate should I jack up the low sections in order to
>         minimize cracking the walls and ceiling at joints? One inch
>         per day/week/month???
    
	About a quarter inch per day.  See previous replies.
	There's more to this: if you have wonderful plaster you want to
	preserve, then you should let things settle a bit before cranking away.

>       - How deep and wide should the concrete footings for the support
>         jacks be dug (I have a dirt floor in the cellar).
 	
	In previous reply.   
 
>      - What's the best way to make sure when you've raised the low
>         sections enough?

	Of course the floors will never be perfect.  Using a 4 foot level
	or larger will give you a good reference.  You definitely want
	to plumb at least the doors so they and anything else are operational.
   
>       - Should I leave things as they are before I cause myself more
>         grief than it is worth?
 
	The answer to this is the answer to the following question:
	Does the current state of the house impede any other remodeling
	(structural or cosmetic) that you want to do?

	In one house, a new bathroom was installed by a DIY'er.  The floor
	sagged 6 inches, so he made a platform under the tub to level it.
	This made it difficult to install a standard shower...
	It would have been much better to have straightened things out _first_.

	If you want a number, clearly 6 inches demands some straightening
	if doors don't work or you are remodeling.

	In leveling, I have found a maxim: Don't ignore the eye.  I have
	found that in _my_ house, things often "plumb" not exactly square,
	but at a point acceptable to the eye;  they will look better 
	than if exactly leveled because the entire house has done some
	moving.

	I placed heavy duty jacks rented from Taylor along the carrying
	beam in the basement.  These were adjusted each day.  I actually
	adjusted them too fast, but was not concerned with the plaster.
	There was very little cracking, and the rate of rise was about a
	half inch a day.  Things moved a total of about 2 inches.

    	Check the doors.  Sometimes as a house settles the past
    "fix-er-uppers" have cut a wedge off the bottom of the door and
    put it on top to make an parallelogram out of it!  This is necessary
    when thing get *really* out of level.  If you straighten out that
    much you might wind up replacing those doors.  They'd be hard to
    "un-fix" in such a case.
    
    							Don Arey

    
    I've got a 100 yr old house in Oakland Maine that's victorian and
    I wouldn't think of selling it for a million!  It has round walls
    and a staircase that hugs the wall around the round wall...I've
    only owned it since 12-17-86 (2 months now) and I've got a lot to
    do (wallpapering, painting, ect) but it's been my dream to own an
    old house...I, too, was born a 100 years to late...If you've got
    the patience and the willpower, I really suggest you go for it!
    good luck...

      My 70+ year old house has jacks about every 4' under the main
    support beam.  The foundation flooring is concrete.  Is this a
    permanent arrangement?  The inspector suggested replacing these
    jacks with lalley columns.  There is still a noticeable slant to
    the kitchen floor, but the other rooms seem okay.
      Linda

>      My 70+ year old house has jacks about every 4' under the main
>    support beam.  The foundation flooring is concrete.  Is this a
>    permanent arrangement?  The inspector suggested replacing these
>    jacks with lalley columns.  There is still a noticeable slant to
>    the kitchen floor, but the other rooms seem okay.

I am really surprised that the building inspector only suggested replacing
jacks with permanent columns.  I would suspect that anything as temporary
as jacks (used to support the main beam in the house) would be a definite
no no.  I would say that replacing jacks with something more permanent
is not only something desireable but absolutely necessary.

-peter

I believe it was a home inspector, not a building inspector.

Paul

    Right, it was the home inspector.  So what is the answer, that I
    should have permanent columns put in?  What is a lalley column
    anyway?  Should these be metal or wood?  Can they rest right on
    the concrete flooring or do they need to be set into something?
      Thanks in advance,
      Linda

    Yes, you should have permanent columns put in.  Lally columns are
    temporary supports and I believe they are also used to level out
    the floor.  The ones my father used had a screw machanism at the
    top.  They are metal and available at most places (Grossman's etc.)
    for under $20 each.  They are hollow steel colulmns.
    
    Permanent columns are concrete filled steel pipes.  And boy are
    they heavy.  These can be had at most places too.  Not sure what
    they cost.  Before you put in a permanent column you will want to
    pour a solid footing for it to rest on, since most old cellar floors
    are very thin concrete.  How big do the footings have to be?  I'm
    not sure, maybe 18"x18"x10"deep???
    
    By the way, my father still has his lally columns up and its been
    over 20 years!!!  So no real hurry to replace them but to do the
    job right they should be concrete filled steel columns.
    
    Phil

The concrete fill columns ARE lally columns.  To install you jack up the beam, 
install the columns, lower the beam.  You should have steel plates top and 
bottom which should be fastened with spikes (big nails) to the beam and with 
anchors and bolts to the floor.  Otherwise -- you lean or bang against one -- 
it slides out -- house falls down.  Very unpleasant.

  And the adjustable posts with screw jacks in them are called teleposts
  (though that may be a trade name rather than a generic name).

  JP

    I found an intriguing little videotape in a Welsh imports catalog, and
    thought some of you might be interested. It's called "Castle on a
    Hill," and is a brief documentary of a man who bought a ruined castle
    in Wales and is renovating and living in it. If you've always wanted to
    live in a castle, or if you think you have problems restoring your old
    Victorian, this might entertain you! 

    The catalog address is:

	The Welsh Dragon
	211 Main St.
	Annapolis, MD 21401

	(301)267-8491	(for phone orders)

    (I don't have the rest of the order information available; the folks at
    the Welsh Dragon can probably figure it out from the description,
    though.) 

    The catalog also contains lots of Welsh souvenirs, clothing, books, and
    so forth. You can get cassettes of the Welsh language, hand-carved
    wooden "love spoons", and recipe books, to mention only a few. 

    -b

                        How old's this Place, Anyway?

This is my first venture into these notes files, but most undoubtedly not
my last - as the owner of 109-year old house that hasn't been worked on 
in over 30 years (it still has the old GE phone relay box in the upstairs 
hall, and the plumbing and wiring is near original, although I have 
had the fusebox replaced).

But all of that is a different story.  I have decided to relate just how 
I discovered exactly how old my house is as I believe that the process I 
took can be used by others (and, hopefully, they will have an easier time).

The search began at Nashua city hall - I do not know about other cities, but 
Nashua records all RE transactions by alphabetical order for both the 
Grantor and the Grantee in books that cover a specific period (usually 10 
years).  So if you know a grantor, or the grantee, you can trace back to 
find the other party in a transaction.

The first break I had was that the same family had owned the house since 
1907.  Four girls had grown up and over the years, died in the house (well, 
not in the house - it was their residence when they died).  The house was 
an estate sale when the last one, Kathleen Brigham, died in 1985 at 85.  So 
I already had it dated to then.  Sarah Brigham bought the house for 1.00,
which I still find odd - why it was sold to her and not to her husband (I 
could never find any connection between Sarah and the family who built and 
owned the house until it was sold to her - two possibilities came up: 1, 
hanky Panky, as George Brigham was a small time local politician, or 2, 
some illigitimate connection with the family - research on Sarah's mother 
shows that she would have been 43 when Sarah was born, which was unheard of
in the 1880's).

Again, too much aside.  But the first break quickly turned into a dead end.
I was only able to trace the transaction back 6 more months to a deed that 
recorded a trade of property between two women.  No mention was made in the 
deed as to prior deeds.

This stumped me.  I could not find how the first woman got the property to 
trade to the second woman.  Then I looked up all transactions of that 
period by both of the women - what I discovered was that my house had been 
part of a massive trade of property between the two, with several blocks of 
Amherst and Abbott and Merimack streets affected.  So I went back and 
looked at all the deeds for all the property that was traded, and one name 
kept popping up in the property descriptions, a James F. Wallace.

So, into the books I dove and started looking at every property James F. 
Wallace had ever purchased, which wound up being quite substantial.  Finally,
I discovered a property that was bought as a lot that was basically my 
property and the house next to me.  No description of any buildings was on 
the deed.  Date: 1874.

Next, in the Grantor book, I found where Wallace had broken off the piece of 
land beside me and sold it, with a house on it, to a sea captain.  But I 
could not find any place listing when he had sold off my property (the place 
next door was in 1876).  That's when I hit the library.

The Nashua Public Library has copies of the city registers going back well 
into the early 1800's.  So I started tracking James F. Wallace through the 
directory - Voila!  In the late 1870's, two females began to be listed at 
the same address as Wallace, with the same first names as the two women 
who did the property trading in 1907 (two years after James Wallace died - 
deaths are recorded, as well as births, in the back of the city registors).
Tracing back births, I discovered that both were Wallace's Daughters.

So, now I had discovered that my house lot was split from my neighbor in 
1876, but that it had been a lot only in 1874, and that the Wallace family 
owned the property until sold to Sarah.  BTW:  James F. Wallace's occupation 
was listed as carpenter, and except for his first property, which had a 
house description in the deed, all other purchases were of lots that later 
wound up with houses on them - not hard to work out who built those houses.

But I was still stuck - When after 1874 and before 1907 was the house built?

Well, the registers had been good to me with Wallace ...

what I did next was time consumming, but not as bad as it may sound.  I started
reading through all of the registers looking for listings for Abbott Street 
(where my house is - and #30 in particular).  The first thing I discovered 
was a listing in 1885 for 30 Abbott - the listing was the same name as the 
husband of wone of the women who eventually traded the house.  They lived 
there for 4 years.

But going back from there, I hit a brick wall.  I could not find any listings
for any houses in the 20's or 30's.  The street stopped at 18, and started 
again at 44.  So my first assumption was that the age of the house must be 1885,
the first listed entry.  I could live with that.

Then I started having fun.  I started reasearching the whole street - who 
lived where, what they did for a living.  I did this for all of the years 
that registers were available.  Granted, it was fun for me - it may not 
be for anyone else.  That's when I discovered that in 1884, everyone on 
Abbott street, from number 12-up, decided to move into the "new" houses in 
the 20's and 30's and 40's blocks.  The woman in 16 (the widow of the sea 
captain, by the way) suddenly moved to 28 Abbott, the family in 12 moved 
to 24, etc.  I'm sorry, but it actually took me awhile to make the 
connection - The street had been renumbered (now didn't I feel silly when I 
finally realized it - light dawning a good week after it should have!)  
Suddenly, my house at 30 Abbott was 18 Abbott.

With this ammo, I was able to trace people living at 18 Abbott back to 1880,
and my house was suddenly 5 years older.

Then, in the 1878 and 1879 directories I found a listing of simply, Abbott
Street, corner of Merrimack (Guess whose house is on the corner of Merrimack).
The person living in my house in 1878 lived on Main street in 1877, and 
at 18 Abbott Street in 1880.  I could not find any reference to any listing 
for Abbott Street in 1877 that could remotely be considered my house - In 
fact, I could trace all of the listings in 1877 forward to listings other 
than Corner of Merrimack, in the 1878 listings.

So, now I have probably bored most of you to tears, but I thought that there
was some info in the process I went through that would provide hints and 
clues to others who are interested in finding out more about there own house's
history.  I was able to discover who Built the House (James F. Wallace), who 
lived in the house, and when, and what they did for a living (A driver for 
Wells Fargo, a bookkeeper, a grocer, etc.).  I found out who "my" neighbors 
were.  I found out all about George Brigham (delivered mail by horseback in 
the Nebraska territories for a year in the 1870's, groery store owner, state
legislator, district commisioner, and construction superentendant for such 
things as the sea wall at Hampton, and the first main hiway through Laconia
Notch, and other interesting projects).  I found out when each member 
of the Brigham family died off (George in 1914, Sarah in 1940, etc.) and 
I even got to read some of Sarah's poetry, as the Nashua Library had a copy
of a self-published book of poems by her (it was fairly easy to see why they
were self published).

I just never could find why the house was sold to Sarah and not to George, 
and why for 1.00 (the brighams did live on Abbott street for a few years 
before they bought the house at 30 - maybe they were just great friends, but 
I keep going back to Sarah's mother's age.)

'Nough said.  I hope someone found this rambling useful.

Joe King

    Interesting!
    
    I knew my house was a little newer so I lifted the toilet cover.
    The date of manufacture is stamped on the inside!  A good indication
    of the age of the house (assuming the toilet is original).  Don't
    know how far back this method works???
    
    C

    Do municipalities maintain a record of building permits issued?
    
    pbm
    

    the tolet lid trick works only only houses that have not been
    retrofited with a bathroom.

    My parents sold me my house for $1.00.  Are you sure this woman
    was not related somehow.  I have a half-sister; my parents could
    have easily sold her the house for a dollar instead of me.  The
    last names would not have matched.
    
    Deb
    

I thought of that - I did a family tree back on Sarah and on the Wallace 
family.  At no point in time did any names come even close to matching.

I checked out obits - There was no listing in Wallaces obit of anyone 
associated with Sarah's family.  Same thing on Sarah and her husband.

There was no connection anywhere.

So I am still in the dark.  However, there is another, somewhat less 
titillating explanation - NH charges transaction taxes on RE sales.  It is
possible that the house changed hands for far greater than the reported 
sales price for the sole purpose of getting out of the tax.

I prefer the somewhat more romantic view (reinforced by the age of Sarah's 
mother when Sarah was born) - that Sarah was an illigitimate child of 
someone in the Wallace family (the woman who sold the house to Sarah, BTW,
was 17 years older than Sarah).

    Until about 20 years ago, it was the norm (in Mass., at least) to
    indicate on the deed that the transaction cost $1.00.  Or "one dollar
    plus other consideration", to be more honest.  The other consideration
    was left to the imagination.
    
    I traced my last house through the Boston (Suffolk) Registry to
    its construction in 1909.  The price trail went back to the '70s;
    the previous transaction was before the new rule took effect.  My
    current house, however, is a mystery:  It was acquired by the Town
    for ($32!) taxes unpaid in 1940 and returned (for $200) in 1942.
    But the town's acquisition deed, unlike every other deed, didn't
    give the "book and page" of the previous one.  So I'm stumped (though
    I haven't checked town tax records yet).  The town building dept.
    has no records on it before 1972.  (Typical of Arlington!  Building
    permit?  Who cares?)

    All I can tell is that the kitchen floor is 16" or so pine boards,
    which a forester identified as having been cut in Canada around
    1850, but the subdivision plan is 1888 and the house postdates it.
    So many changes have been made over the years it's hardly recognizable
    as a Victorian.

On a side issue, does anyone know what timeframe gas lighting fixtures came
into vogue on houses ?  My house has all the gas lighting pipes and fixtures
in it.  I tried tracing the age of the house, but the City of Worcester claims
the house didn't exist in 1920, yet the former owner lived there for 85 
years up untill 1975, when she passed away.

					*j*

    I would guess gas lighting was popular during the period just before
    Edison invented the light bulb.  (and until the area was electirfied)
    My memory fails as to what that date was exactly.  That period spans
    more that 100 years though, I think.  They used gas lighting in
    colonial times didn't they?

    Gas lighting was common up until the early years of this century.
    Old gas piping can be found in most metropolitan area homes built
    before 1900.
    
    pbm
    

    .8:
    
    No, in the 18th century you could choose between candles, rushes
    and oil lamps.  I think that gas lighting was made possible by the
    production of oil and natural gas;  and the earliest find (in
    Titusville, PA) was something like 1857.  I think that gas lighting
    would be in the period from the American Civil War up through the
    turn of the century, more or less.
    
    Dick
    

    Gas lights were first powered by gas produced from the
    gassification(sp?) of coal. It would be a difficult to use that
    to set a date as it depends on when electric service came to the
    area and on when the owner at the time decided to take electric
    service. Here in the springs we have homes built in 1918 that
    had gas lighting built in.
    
    -j
    

    
    Spalding Grey has an hour special on HBO in which he talks about
    the perils of buying a house and homeownership.  I'm not sure if
    all or any of this is true, but it's quite funny. 
    
    He buys a vacation house in upstate NY for 26K ( thinks it's a
    bargin because the guy wanted 32K for it).  The foundation is
    made from cinderblocks and is falling down.  But, the house is
    weatherproofed - the furnace is in the attic!  He then tries to
    sell it but no one will list it for over 10K.  A nightmare.
    
    Spalding is quite a funny guy.  He's made 'Swimming to Cambodia'
    which is a quite entertaining movie.
    
    
    

Also on HBO, or maybe Showtime, is a comedy special "The Rich Hall Show" 
which has a bit called "This Old Trailer."  In it, Rich Hall plays a Bob 
Villa-type host with a helper named Stanley taking the part of Norm.  

The subject of the show is "putting a grand piano in your trailer," but
while the Bob-type takes you downstairs (?!) to see how last week's
project -- a combination hockey rink/ walk-in freezer -- turned out,
Stanley installs the piano.  So at the end it's just like "This Old
House" in that it never really shows how anything is done, just the
setup and the results.  It's a cute bit. 
					>>>==>PStJTT

    We are in the process of buying our first house; an inspector that
    we hired told us that because the builder skimped on the number
    of lally columns underneath the main beam, the floors (and the roof
    line) are sagging.  He suggested that we install a couple more columns.
    
    The existing columns have a square plate at the top which meets
    the main beam; however, at the bottom they seem to be cemented into
    the basement floor.  I've read in the replies to this note that
    the lally columns should have a plate at each end; I've also read
    that they can be cut to desired exact length.  These two statements
    seem to contradict each other.  Will it be ok to cut a column? 
    If so, how should I attach the cut end to the basement floor?
    
    A point on the subject of how fast to make changes with jack stands
    --- our inspector told us to go no faster than 1/4 turn per day;
    seems like this would vary the actual rate according to the pitch
    of the jack's threads.  A carpenter friend also mentioned that it
    can take up to 2 years for the change to settle...
    
    Thanks all!
    

    The lally columns look like they are cemented in because they are.
    
    They are actually on their own footing.  Then the floor is poured
    which cements them in.
    
    To install another you need to break through the floor, install
    a footing, install the column, and patch the floor.
    
    You cannot just put it on the floor.  It won't support the point
    force.

    I'm a bit surprised that the cause of the sagging roofline is
    a sagging main beam.  How old is this house?  A much more common
    reason for the roofline to sag is inadequate collar ties, or
    inadequate nailing of the roof rafters to the ends of the attic
    floor joists.  If you've got a noticable sag in the roofline due
    to a sagging main beam, I might be a little concerned.  In fact,
    I'm not sure how a sagging roofline could be caused by a sagging
    main beam; the roof is supported by the walls.  Unless you perhaps
    have trusses of some sort that are suppposed to be supported at
    their center, and not simply roof rafters supported by the outside
    walls and meeting at the peak?  Did the inspector look in the attic
    at the roof rafters?
    
    Anyway, on to lally columns and jacking things up:
    This is just a guess, but I assume that there are steel plates on
    the bottoms of the lally columns, and they're sitting on footings
    that were poured before the floor was poured; the floor just comes
    up over them a little bit.
    If you want to really do it right you ought to chisel out sections
    of the floor about 1' to 18" square, dig down about 9-12", and pour 
    footings for your new columns.  However, that may be overkill;
    probably is.  Personally, I'd just set the new columns on the
    existing floor.  If the loading starts cracking the floor, then
    you can think about the chisel-and-dig-for-footings business.
    As far as I know, all lally columns are custom-made to length anyway.
    You buy the column the length you want, the plates, and get them
    welded together.  (I may be wrong about that.)
    How much to jack per day...it all depends.  If it's settled a lot,
    you may be able to go up the first inch or so in a day or two, as
    you take up the slack in everything.  Maybe not.  In general, when
    the loading on the jack starts to get serious - and you'll know
    when it does - you want to proceed slowly.  There is nothing magic
    about "1/4 turn per day"; the main thing is to go slowly, guided
    by the way things feel and sound as you crank it up.  
    Hydraulic jacks are really good for lifting; they are NOT good for
    holding a load, they tend to leak over time.  At least all the
    hydraulic jacks I've ever used have leaked over time (a day, for
    example).  The best setup I've found is a hydraulic jack for lifting, 
    and a screw jack to hold the load once it's lifted.
    You might get by with a couple of the adjustable screw-top lally 
    columns that are sold; they seem to come in a range of quality, 
    so try to get good ones.  Use a hydraulic jack to lift, and the 
    screw on the column to hold what progress you've made.  They aren't
    as rugged as "real" non-adjustable lally columns, but for any home
    use as extra support I wouldn't worry much.
    Once you put a good load on the jack (and the new column) you've 
    stabilized the situation so things won't get any worse.  Assuming,
    of course, that the sagging main beam is really the problem.  How much 
    you jack it up beyond that point depends on how much you want to 
    correct the existing sag.  There's no hurry in doing that.  I've
    been muddling along for about two months jacking up one corner of my 
    house to fix a door that was binding.  No hurry.  Whenever I'm down
    in the basement and I think of it, I crank it up a little more.
   

    A friend of mine just went up a level raising the roof of a ranch
    to a cape / garrison style.
    
    One of the first things they did was to hack away the cement floor
    to insure that the lally columns were in fact on their own adequate
    footings.
    
    Just putting the lally columns on the floor itself would never get
    by an inspector.  Never mind the fact that you are saving very little
    to get a lot of grief later. 
    
    What happens if that particular portion of the floor has settled
    ever so slightly so that ordinarilly it's not a problem until you
    put a point force on it.

    re: .19
    
    Footings are undoubtedly the right way to do it.  If the main beam
    has in fact settled enough so that the roof sags (and I still don't
    understand how that's really possible unless the house structure
    is:
      1) different than anything I can imagine or
      2) in such incredibly bad shape that a little sag is the least
         of the problems)
    footing might well be very much in order.  However, concrete, even
    *BAD* concrete, will support over 1 ton per square inch.  Unless
    the concrete floor is totally undermined and suspended over air,
    I would guess that putting the columns on the floor would work fine.
    (Of course, I am also assuming the floor is of some "reasonable"
    thickness, say 4".  If it's a 1" skim coat, which I suppose might
    be possible if the contractor really skimped on material, that would
    be a different story.)  Is it "according to code"?  No.  If that's
    an issue, then do the footings.  
    

    re: lally columns
    
    Pour the footing otherwise you leave yourself open to all sorts
    of hassles from building inspectors to insurance coverage.
    
    Lally columns can be cut easily to length. All you need is a large
    pipe cutter or hack saw. Cut through the tube, which isn't very
    thick, lay the column on a couple of saw horses or something and
    give the cut end a whack with a hammer. The concrete will crack
    at the cut and the end will fall off (watch your toes). The principle
    is the same as cutting sheetrock.
    
    I agree that blaming a sagging roof on a sagging main beam sounds
    weird.
    
    Alan

    Ok, let's see if I have this straight...
    
    Gradually jack up the sagging main beam with a jack post of some type;
    chisel a 12-18" square opening through the basement floor where the
    lally column is to be; dig an hole around a foot deep into the dirt
    under the opening; attach the lally column to the main beam with its
    bottom flange hanging an inch or two below the level of the floor
    surface (?); pour a cement footing into the hole, surrounding the
    bottom flange of the lally column and filling the floor opening back up
    to the original level of the basement floor; after the concrete has
    cured remove the jack post.
    
    Does this sound correct?
    
    Thanks to all for your advice/help.

    
     I would first make sure the main beam is sagging.  Use a string
    level, from end of beam to the other, line of sight should tell
    you.  While you are at it, from that line,do the corners and check
    for settling.  If you find there is sagging or substantial settling
    then start jacking things up.  If not, check for carrying walls
    that have been altered or removed, or ceiling joists not up to size
    (Norm Abrams hasn't been around there, has he?) or shifted and then
    finally as suggested previously go up in the attic and look around.
    The same string techniques can tell alot.  good luck!

    re: .22
    
    Not quite. You don't have to hang the column. Dig the hole, pour
    the footing so it is below the level of the floor by 1-2 inches.
    after it is dry (don't forget to smooth/level the top) measure the
    distance to the main beam. Cut your lally column the right length,
    don't forget to allow for the thickness of the two plates.
    NB: The plates are not welded to the column, there are little bumps
        which surround the column to keep it from sliding sideways,
        and holes which you nail or screw through to secure the plate
        to the beam.
    Now just wiggle/slide the column into position making sure it is
    centered on the beam and plumb. Any tiny discrepencies in length
    can be taken care of by jacking up or down. Now pour some concrete
    to finish grade on the floor.
    
    Alan

    RE: Sagging Beam = Sagging roof line.
    
    Actually, this is possible. At least it seems so to me.
    
    To begin with, my house is a Bow House which is a little different
    anyway, but above my second floor, within the attic space, running
    from gable to gable is a trussed wall which is actually holding
    up the roof rafters. There are no cross-ties in the attic. This 'wall' 
    is immediately over the main second floor wall, which is immediately 
    over the first floor wall, which is immediately over the main carring beam.
    
    From this, I would assume that sag in the main carrying beam would
    translate into a corresponding sag in the roof line. This, of course
    would assume that the trussed wall in the attic would deflect the
    same amount.

    Charlie

    re .24
    
    Thanks.
    
    Isn't the purpose of the end plates to spread out the force exerted
    by the column on the concrete?  If the plates aren't welded to the
    column, then how does this work?
    
    I forgot to ask if I should fill the columns with concrete or do
    they come that way?
    
    For what it's worth, both of the building supply centers I talked
    to told me the same thing: that I should use "adjustable lally columns"
    directly on the concrete floor, no footings or permanent columns
    necessary.  I still don't believe either of them, am going with
    the fixed columns/footings.

just as a thought, are you planning on having any of this inspected?  if not,
fine.  BUT - if you plan to get a building inspector involved you'll probably 
have to let him see how deep the footing go BEFORE you pour them.

-mark

    Columns are already filled.
    
    As far as using the adjustable columns, I don't know. I guess my
    question would be: if they aren't strong/secure enough, why do they
    sell them? They certainly would be easier to install.
    
    As far as footings vs. floor, the guy I learned from swore by footings,
    he also tended to build things that would withstand most tactical
    nuclear strikes.
    
    Alan

    
    the plates don't have to be welded.  They are in compression.
    They ain't goin nowhere.  There should not be any sideways force.

>        the plates don't have to be welded.  They are in compression.
>    They ain't goin nowhere.  There should not be any sideways force.

    Also, I think those plates have 4 little bumps on them to hold the post
    in place.  The post fits right into a spot on the plate and won't
    move without the beam being jacked up.  The plates are nailed to
    the beam.
    

<    As far as using the adjustable columns, I don't know. I guess my
<    question would be: if they aren't strong/secure enough, why do they
<    sell them? They certainly would be easier to install.
    
Most hardwarestore/lumberyards sell plumbing supplies and high lead solder,
but that does not make it legal to use them.

If you do have to jack up the house, which I doubt unless the sag is real bad,
you may want to consider a steel beam replacement, instead of adding lally 
columns.  I had an engineer look over replacing the beam in my house inorder to 
accomodate a pool table and increase headroom.  The engineer estimated that 
PROPERLY installing the lally columns would cost more then the beam.  In my 
case the steel beam could span 15 feet and the current lally cloumns are 8 feet
apart. So inorder to get maximum(numbers are not necessarily accurate), I would 
have to add another column or two, and remove a few.

I do not have the exact info available anymore (remodeling is on hold).

Brian

    This is a small one story house, with a small attic which is not
    big enough to stand up in.  The roof is supported as previously
    mentioned, the roof rafters being attached to the tops of the outer
    walls of the house.  The center wall above the main beam only extends
    to the ceiling of the first, and only, floor.
    
    As far as the "compresibility" of the soil underneath the basement
    floor is concerned, I have no idea.
    
    We are definitely concerned with the code as I assume we will have
    to pass an inspection to acquire insurance on the house!
    
    I'm sure I can do the footings myself once the proper dimensions are
    determined...but how to determine them?
    
    Guess it's time to call a contractor...(sigh) 

>    I'm sure I can do the footings myself once the proper dimensions are
>    determined...but how to determine them?
    
>    Guess it's time to call a contractor...(sigh) 

Don't panic.  A footing a foot thick would be overkill.  Just break through
the floor, dig a hole and fill it with cement and some scrap rebar, available
at almost any industrial construction site for free.  Jack the house to the 
desired height, and a little more to pound the post in position.  I jacked 
one of the modules of my modular house an inch in less than a week with 
no damage.  If your house is all one piece, go slowly, but you still may
crack some ceilings (a contractor can crack your ceilings too, for a price)

My house, and most in my neighborhood are about as big as yours and all 
the lally column footings were about 6 inches thick, with no rebar!

Go for it.
Brad.

    A house is not all that heavy!  Really.  And the lally columns
    aren't holding up anywhere near the whole house, remember.
    Footings 18" square are PLENTY.  The guy who just jacked up 
    a wing of my house to replace the foundation had the whole 
    thing balanced on two rows of 4x4s, with the bottoms of them 
    standing on some 2x6 planks laid on the floor.  No problem.
    
    By the way, those adjustable lally columns aren't recommended for
    doing actual lifting, I don't believe; lift with a hydraulic jack,
    then tighten up the adjusting screw on the column until it's tight.
    

    Interesting detail about how the Bow House roof works - I'd
    assumed they were wide open inside.  In that kind of construction
    the main beam would be carrying part of the roof load I guess.

    
    	Just one note of caution. It is fine to ASSUME that all builders
    use footings when installing lally columns. This isn't necessarily
    true. I replaced a lally column in my basement by laminating the
    main beam with two pieces of 1/4" steel plate, as instructed by
    the building inspector. When I removed the existing lally column,
    I found that there was no footing. Boy was I pi**ed.
    	During this phase of work, I also jacked up the main beam to
    compensate for some sag that I noticed between the floor and the
    wall on the first floor. I feel much better now. I know the house
    is supported better than it used to be. By the way, it cost me a
    grand total of $250 to laminate the beam. This may be a better solution
    for you. It doesn't cost much to investigate an alternative before
    starting the project.
    
    
    Good luck whichever method you choose.
    
    Charlie

    RE: .36
    
    Yup. What actually happens is that the second floor ceiling
    becomes the 'ties' for the bowed rafters. This is because the
    rafters extend from the ridge board right on down to the first
    floor overhang [typical cape construction, untypical rafters]. 
    There still is quite a bit of room left in the attic space.
    
    The trussed wall in the attic acts to keep the remaining length 
    of rafters [from second floor ceiling to ridge] from 'swaying in 
    the breeze' ;).

    Charlie

	When I first installed a Lally, I didn't know much about them,
	either.  I carefully cut the steel jacket, and wondered how to
	cut the concrete.  When I grabbed the 3' waste piece, it snapped
	off in my hands!  I used a hacksaw in a makeshift miter box.  No
	doubt bouncing the column as I cut around it cracked the concrete.

	On my second Lally project, I decided to make footings.  I poised
	the star drill over the cellar floor, tapped it with a 3 lb hammer,
	and sank it 4" into the earth beneath the house!  The cellar floor
	was little more than skimcoat cement!  I figure the house was
	built with a dirt cellar, and subsequently upgraded with a nice
	pretty cement floor.  The loam under the cellar was rich, black,
	and soft.

	I tried lifting the house with jack screws.  I put a couple solid
	4x8 cement blocks on the cellar floor as a base for the jack.
	Then I cranked, using a pipe to get more force on the screw.  The
	house rose a half-inch, and then the cement block under the jack
	snapped in half!  It was sitting on a little bit of unevenness in
	the beautiful skim-coat floor.  This was before I discovered the
	nice soft humus holding up the floor.  (I finally bought a
	hydraulic jack to push the house up.)

	One thing you might consider.  If your house hasn't fallen down yet,
	plan where you want your footings.  Start cutting through the floor.
	Learn how difficult it is.  Maybe you can remove the floor with your
	fingers!  Study the earth underneath.  If you think it will be easy
	to make a big hole, maybe you can dig a 2' x 2' x 1' or so.  Once
	you've decided to pour concrete into holes bigger than about 1 cubic
	foot, you might as well go for 4 cu. ft.

	How does one install rebar in the footings?  Just pour some concrete,
	drop a couple bars on it, and pour more concrete?

	Regards, Robert.

	I won't tell you about my third jackpost project, with a hydraulic
	jack holding up a 2-story house, while I stared at a 10" x 10"
	"footing", tilted 10 degrees in soft earth, on Christmas Eve,
	and Larry Glick on the radio in the kitchen upstairs playing
	The Italian Twelve Days of Christmas.

re: .37

     The steel plates sound like a good idea.  Can you describe the process
of how you "laminated" steel to wood.  With the steel plate what is the 
widest span for your beam, and what is it supporting?

Brian    

    
    The reason that I used steel lamination was to remove a lally column
    from my basement so that I wouldn't have a post in the middle of
    my "living room". 
    
    I measured the dimensions of the main support beam, 8" X 8" , and
    the distence from the foundation wall to the lally column that would
    be left after removing the one in question, 16' span. I went to
    the building inspector and explained the type of house, foundation
    dimensions, and the type and size of main support beam. He told
    me that I would need two pieces of steel ( I don't remember the 
    specifics about the steel) 3/8" thick, 8" high and 13' long. He
    told me that I needed to drill the steel for 3/8" bolts, he even
    told me the minimum distance between bolts. I'll try to draw a picture
    of the steel.
    
    	____________________________________________________   _
    	|o       o       o       o       o       o       o |   ^
    	|                                                  |   | 8"
     	|    o       o       o       o       o       o     |   v
    	----------------------------------------------------   -    
    
     	|<-----------------------  13'  ------------------>|
    
    
    I would strongly urge you to talk to the building inspector because
    they have the formulas in a book to calculate the how to laminate
    the beam correctly.
    
    Good Luck
    
    Charlie
    

    I'm really suprised that the building inspector would do this for
    you.  I bought a 'staging plank' at Chagnon's lumber in Nashua a
    while back.  He would NOT sell me a 'staging plank'.  He said I've
    got some 2x12x16' rough that I'll sell you.  They can't do it due
    to liability reasons.
    
    Maybe it's different with the inspector since he has to approve
    these sorts of things anyway.  I'm still suprised that he'd perform
    this as a service though and not send you to a structural engineer.
    
    I thought of doing this to my cellar as well.  The problem is that
    my main beam is built up 2x10?'s, 3 of them nailed together, and
    a load bearing wall is above it that supports the second story.
    
    Is yours a 2 story application or do you have a split or ranch??

re: .42

<    while back.  He would NOT sell me a 'staging plank'.  He said I've
<    got some 2x12x16' rough that I'll sell you.  They can't do it due
<    to liability reasons.
    
Major difference between a lumberyard and a building inspector!  A lumberyard
sells lumber, their business is not to determine if the use that the purchaser 
has in mind is acceptable. Most lumberyards try to be helpful, but usually 
draw the line at safety/structural issues.

The job of the building inspector is to determine acceptable building 
practices.  When he makes a recommendation, he is just doing the same 
analysis that he would eventually have to do to approve the design.  In 
the long run this saves the building inspector and the builder time because 
they are working from a common idea from the beginning.  

Most building inspectors are indemnified by the town, states, etc.  One way 
that building inspectors can get into trouble is when they make a 
recommendation, then not approve the final design after the developer has 
spent big bucks for plans.  

re .41

I assume that the building inspector also specified the strength of bolts used.
You seem to have a very reasonable building inspector.  I have dealt with a 
less knowledgable and more conservative building inspector which have require 
the steel plating to extend the entire distance from support to support and 
a spreader plate at the seam point where the old column was.
This is definitely alot cheaper then jacking up the house and replacing the 
beam(In my case we have a friend who is 6'6", and the need the headroom in the 
basement.  We tell him that when it is time to replace the beam he can lift the 
house for us).

Brian

    If your town has a historical society, they often have records.
    They also have experience at this game. 
    
    Another approach, especially in small towns, is to find the oldest
    living residents and ask them what they know about who used to live
    there.
    
    Old birth and baptismal records at the town churches might turn
    up something. 
    
    Many old timers would hide a penny somewhere in the house when they
    built it, so that the house would never be without money. Finding
    it can be a problem of course.
    
    My father bounded the date of an addition by an interesting method.
    When he was resideing, he noticed that several of the old sheathing
    boards had pieces of a circus poster still attached. Probably boards
    taken from a barn. The poster had a month and day of week and date.
    ( eg Friday July 16th ) An examination of a perpetual calender showed
    what years it could possibly have been. Examination of old newspapers
    for the correct dates turned up the year the circus had been in
    town at the right time. 
    

    	 It's great  to  find  these  old notes, as well as old houses.  
    Here's an  interesting  story  about dating an old farm house that 
    I'm just "DIEING" to see how it ends.
    
    	 My cousin and her husband bought  an  old  farm  house in the 
    center of a  small  town in New Hampshire, right behind the town's 
    main church.  Now  the house by all accounts is over 150 years old 
    and is your typical New  England  farm house including old barn 25 
    feet away from main house.   Well, the  house had been owned by an 
    older couple who had owned it for many years and let the thing run 
    down  and  the  yard over grow.  My  cousin  found  this  a  great 
    opportunity  to buy a home and farm (8 acres)  for  a  price  they 
    could afford and cash in on with some good old sweat-equity. 
    	 
    	 After moving in my cousin,her husband and her parents started 
    in on the  job of fixing this place up to make it more livable for 
    the short term.   I  say  short  term  because  my  cousin and her 
    husband were not yet married  and were planing to hold the wedding 
    reception at the house 3 months after they moved in.  Boy did they 
    have their work cut out for them.    One of the last projects they 
    were doing a week before the wedding was  to  start  a garden (2nd 
    garden really) in a shaded area close to the house.  This area had 
    original  been  overgrown  with  vines  which  had  grown  in  all 
    directions  for  a  100  feet and which had literally attacked the 
    house and were all the way up to the roof.  They  had  pulled  the 
    vines out the first week they were in the house.  So they  get out 
    the  roto  tiller and start to turn the earth when all of a sudden 
    they run into  a  big  rock,  or  so  they  thought.  Upon further 
    excavation they found 2  head stones buried less than 2 feet under 
    the ground.
    
    	 Keep in  mind  that this house is located directly behind the 
    church cemetery.  The place  the  stones  were  unearthed was less 
    than  50  feet from the back  of  the  house  which  under  normal 
    circumstances  would be too close for a  family  plot.    This  is 
    further confirmed by the names and dates on  the stones which were 
    different and nearly 100 years apart.  One was a woman 29 who died 
    in the early 1700's (1740's or 50's I think) and  the  other woman 
    died  around  the  1820's.    Well  every  one at the wedding  was 
    speculating  as  to  how  &  why the stones were there.  The  only 
    additional info my cousin was able to get was that the first woman 
    who died in  the  1700's  had committed suicide.  I don't remember 
    how she found this out, local folklore I think.  So being it was a 
    week before their wedding they  didn't  have  a  lot of time to do 
    research, but as I said it  should  be a very interesting story to 
    find out who the previous land owners were.  My best guess is that 
    the area was used for a grave yard for people who were not allowed 
    to be buried in the church cemetery.  Keep  in  mind  suicide  was 
    (is) a sin and back in those days you were not allowed to be buried  
    in  the church yard. I think it was privately owned farmland (part
    of a larger farm) that someone donated for this purpose because it 
    was close to the main church cemetery.
    
    	 One other interesting note.    The day they dug up the stones, 
    at the  same  time  they  were  digging them up, a line of thunder 
    storms came through  the  area  and they lost power for the night.  
    Kind  of  scared  them  a  little.    Reminded  me  of  the  first 
    'Poltergeist' movie.
    
    
    	 Any  one have some helpful suggestion for find out about the 
    lands  history?   And what  about  the  grave  stoves  themselves?  
    People pay big bucks for that  kind  of  American  history  but my 
    cousin  doesn't want to sell them, maybe  donate.    What  is  the 
    likelihood  that  there  is bodies to go along  with  the  stones?  
    Should  she  do  any more excavating or find a  historical  group, 
    university, etc to do it instead?
    
    ...Dave  Who's_glad_he_doesn't_live_on_top_of_a_waste_dump_of_any_kind

    

RE: < Note 22.14 by LDP::BURKHART >

Have your friends get in touch with the town police.  Even though there's
no homicide, etc involved here (at least that anyone would be concerned
about!), there are some recent NH laws regarding gravesites in both
established and long-forgotten sites.

Seems that with the boom in construction, a lot of people are running
into similar situations when building, etc.

At the very least, these sites need to be mapped by the local planning
board for future reference.  In fact, our planning board (Pembroke) just
received copies of a pamphlet dealing with this type of occurance.


-Mark LePage

	Re:  .14

	New Hampshire Crossroads did a piece about lost gravesites a few 
	weeks ago.  NHC is produced by Channel 11, the public television 
	station in Durham, NH.  Call them they may have some helpful 
	information.

    RE: .14  "rolling stones..."
    
    Well, sometimes headstones are replaced when more family members
    are added to a plot at a later date.  I myself have salvaged a nice
    piece of granite for a step.  It's only got writing on one side
    and was in the dumping ground of a town cemetery.
                                            
    I wonder what some future resident of our old house will think if
    they dig up the front yard.             
                                            
    

    Re .17:
    
    What if the former owner decides to pay nocturnal visits to demand
    his property back?
    
    pbm
    

    I had a fortuitous bit of luck which I will share if anybody is
    interested. I bought an old cape near the center of town, small town in
    central mass, which was built up in the 1800's. The next door neighbor
    was the grandson of the owners dating back to the 1920's, and all he
    could tell me was;
    A. My house, his house, and the next one over were built, one per year,
    between 1878 and 1880.
    B. The town water main was installed sometime around the turn of the
    century in that part of town.
    C. My house had undergone several major renovations.
    
    Well, one of the first projects I undertook was to strip off the old
    clapboards and cedar shingles, and reside the house, with peripheral
    side excursions to blown in insulation and re-sheathing as needed.
    Underneath the clapboards, in a sheltered spot under an overhang, I
    came upon a spot where the carpenter had run out of paper and used that
    day's issue of the Worcester Sentinel. Bingo! The house was sided in
    October of 1878.
    Next, I tore some interior walls apart, and inside the plaster and
    lath, was a copy of the Worcester Telegram from July, 1920. Bingo !!
    Major rebuild # 1, consisting of windows, furnace, and walls.
    Then, the town increased the water pressure in town, and the main to
    the house burst. When I arrived home the day the contractor dug the
    pipe, I spotted, sitting atop the pipe, a 1901 Indian Head Penny, that
    saw maybe a year of use before being placed carefully in the spot where
    it sat when I found it. Bingo! Indoor plumbing in 1901.
    Lastly, when the pipe burst, it washed away the foundation under the
    bathroom, and I had to replace the whole thing. Inside the plasterboard
    walls, I found newspapers (and beer bottles) from 1975. Last project
    dated.
    
    As an aside, I replaced the penny with a new one, and left some
    newspapers inside the walls in a few places for the next guy.
    Dates can be found in strange places.
    

	I once yanked floorboards in my kitchen and found newspapers
	used as cushioning between board layers.

	They were from 1924 (I think) and reported the "agreement"
	among the U.S., Britain, and Japan setting the ratio of
	naval vessels for each country.  Remember your highschool
	history class?  Well, it's true!  They really _did_ decide
	how many ships the countries would get.  I'm not sure, but
	I think the ratio was something like 5 for the U.S, 2 for
	Japan.  To see it in a newspaper gives it authenticity that
	a mere school cannot possibly convey.

	Neat idea, planting mementos in your work.

	Regards, Robert.

    We recently redid a friend's bathroom, and had great difficulty with
    plumbing and  fitting the shower/tub unit in.  We all signed an inside
    wall and dated it and added "If you are reading this, we feel sorry for
    you"!
    
    Elaine
    

    RE .21
    
    When my wife and I redid one of our bathrooms, we did the same thing,
    dated and signed inside one of the walls.  But we left a little
    present for whomever.  I took a 1989 penny, put it in a plastic
    bag, and tacked it to the stud next to our signatures.  It's rally
    nothing, but in 50 or so years, it might brighten someone's day.
    Let's face it, if they find it then they're in the middle of a big
    job, so leave 'em a little something to make it less painfull.
    
    Ken

    My wife has traced our house back to it's first owner, by tracing
    each deed back to the original sale, then going through wills back
    to the first owner.  She is doing the last bit of research now,
    to determine the construction date, if possible.  This is significant
    because the house dates to the early 1700's or possibly as early
    as the 1690's.  Determining the true age is an important part of
    establishing historic significance.  We hope to use this information
    to get the house placed on the National Register so that it's value
    and future are protected.
    
    Since Marlboro's records were lost or burned, this research has
    been conducted in Cambridge - lots of dusty books and hard-to-read
    microfilm, plus many quarters for copies, but worth it!
    
    If anyone is interested, contact her at AITG::DOUGLASS.

  Unless there is a specific erection date mentioned in the deed, one must
be careful when dating a house solely through deeds. Even if a date is given,
that alone is insufficient to properly date a house.

  Many houses burned to the ground, with a new one erected upon the old
foundation. The site work and the foundation were the most labor intensive,
back breaking task of building a house; hence, their re-use.

  Additionally, many houses started out as a simple structure, only to be
enlarged as time and money would permit. When dating a house of this nature,
it is proper to list the dates of the major additions.

  One final obstacle when dating - the house may have been moved to its 
present location. In this case, the house will be older than the deeds would
indicate.

  The frame's construction, the architectural details (mouldings, mantles,
doors, cornices, etc.), the floorplan, the masonry, tool marks, and its
location together are the surest way to date a house to +/- 25 years. Granted
a house may have underwent remodeling, but a trained eye can easily spot this.

  Patrick

    Hello All,
    
    A couple of years ago on "Evening Magazine" they had an "article" on 
    about a place in Conneticut that had old household items that it sold.
    This included old doors, cabinets, windows, screen doors, etc...
    It was set up like a big old warehouse.
    
    Does anyone know of this place?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Sandy
     

See 120.2.

    We took a trip down there once based on an article we'd seen in a
    magazine. It's not much of a "house-wrecking company" any more so much
    as a small tourist attraction. The thing that most caught my eye was a
    carved marble bench that could be "picked up" for around $8 grand (we
    passed on that one) and a bucket full of amethyst-colored glass "gems"
    - I took a hand-full of those at a few cents apiece - still haven't
    found a use for them.
    
    They had some REALLY BIG pieces of victorian-looking furniture like
    full bar set-ups you'd expect to see in old western movies with "Miss
    Kitty" coming down the stairs to the tune of a honkey-tonk piano.
    
    It was fun to imagine what you COULD do with some of the stuff:
    
    		a) if you could afford it
    		b) if you had an aircraft hanger big enough to put it in

     thanks... I wasn't sure if it was expensive or not & from what I've
    read it is probably beyond my bounds.  
    
    One of the things I'm looking for is an "old type" screen door, wood,
    not the real simple type but with some fancier dowels,etc.
    
    Any suggestions where to look?
    
    Sandy

There are several places that advertize in the back of "Old House Journal" that
manufacture the classic "Victorian" screen doors.  (These are the all wood type
with lots of scroll work.)

- Mark

Most (many?) wrecking companies keep the "good" stuff for resale to DYIers.
When I owned rental real estate I used to use Duane's Wrecking in Quincy but
I think I read that they are gone now.  They are always good for doors, steam
and hot water cast iron radiators (careful they may be cracked but they can be 
repaired), mahogany balustrades, bathtubs, sinks, toilets, wood/marble mantles 
and other neat stuff.

I know an apartment in Newport RI that has heavy duty doors from a building
at MGH that was demolished.

Stan

    How can we reduce the amount of dust in our house? We live in New
    England, in an old house, on a fairly main road, and we get incredible
    amounts of dust throughout the house. The house is well insulated, and
    we have oil heat (FHW). We also have 2 cats and a dog.
    
    Most of us have developed breathing problems over the past few years,
    mostly asthma. I suspect it is because the air is so dusty and too dry.
    Am thinking about getting an ultrasonic humidifier (after reading
    previous notes on it), but was wondering if folks had other ideas on
    how to deal with this problem.
    
    /Tim

    Have you checked your vacuum cleaner to be sure that its filter bag is
    actually trapping the dust?  If it's letting fine dust through, then
    vacuuming just stirs the irritants around.

    I have chronic mild allergies (constant stuffed up nose), and I have
    found that a combination of an ultrasonic humidifier and a reasonable
    vacuum provide the relief that I need.  When I start to get really
    stuffed up, or my throat gets sore, I vacuum the bedroom from the
    ceiling to the floor, behind and under the furniture, etc.  Generally
    this solves the problem for 3-6 months (need to do it more often in
    pollen season).

    However, I'm in a wet and relatively dust-free area.

    Have you also been watching for mold?  If you're keeping the house
    shut up tightly to avoid the dust, you may be providing a breeding
    ground for mold.  Since you say the house is dry, that probably isn't
    a problem, but you might want to check the basement and attic to be
    sure that they are ventilated adequately.

    I too am alergic to dust mold and about everything but distilled water.
    .. and live in an old 100+ house.  the most important place to keep
    clean is the bedroom.. (I got drastic and turned it into a "clean room"
    No rugs, no curtains, no clutter with an ustrasonic cleaner on a timer
    going when I'm away (this is probably just psychological... I dont
    think they do much)  Most important  GET A ****GOOD*** MATRASS AND BOX
    SPRING COVER.  Not K mart but from medical supply house.  Dust isn't
    the problem... dust mites are.  They have difficulty living below 50%
    humidity.
    
    Good luck.

    Another source of quite hazardous dust is obtained by venting your
    clothes dryer to the inside.  Even with a filter, it will put a lot
    of very fine fabric dust into the air.
    
    On FHA furnaces, electronic air cleaners are very good at reducing
    dust and other air pollutants.  There are room size units which work to
    a point ... but are not as overall effective.
    
    Stuart

    
    think about buying a RAINBOW vacumn. It passes the air across water,
    and the water picks up most of the dust. Regular vacumns chuck a lot of
    dust out thru the bag and seem more like a recirculator. Plus a Rainbow
    vacumn can sit in a corner of the room and suck air in, filtering it.
    
    The salesman will ask $1200 for one. Don't pay it! Read the local
    classifieds and you'll get one for $300, a much better price.
    
    Simon

Even better than a RAINBOW vacuum is a central vacuum unit.  In my case the
unit is in the garage, where noise and dust is not an issue (little dust
gets through the unit anyway).  Plus, you don't have to drag a caniser vac
around, and you can get a far more powerful motor than you would be willing
to pull around.

I had one installed in my house in Colorado Springs 4 years ago for about
$600.  Worth every penny.

    When I installed a central vac system, I vented the exhause OUTSIDE of
    the house. Makes a world of difference.
    
    Eric

    I remember seeing on TV an ad for a portable air filter, maybe a
    little bigger than a 1 gallon ultrasonic humdifier.  It had something
    like 2 or 3 removable filters for varying size particles with a fan to suck
    air across them.  I'm not sure it was electrostatic or not (like the
    FHA ones).  It was not an ionizer (aka ozone producer).  I haven't
    seen them in stores like Lechmere.  Anyone know any more details
    or have one of these?
    
    -al

Rainbows demonstrate well, but they are really no more effective at removing
dust than a normal canister vacuum in good condition.

If dust is a big problem, air filtering systems are a help.  There are larger
units with HEPA filters which work well - I saw one in the Brookstone catalog
for $99.  Electrostatic precipitators also work very well, but are expensive
and can be messy to clean out.

The best thing is to reduce the dust generation in the first place.

				Steve

    
    re .8
    
    I have to disagree about the rainbows. They do a MUUUUUUCH better job
    in filtering the dust then ANY vacuum with a paper filter. I've used
    brand new Eureka's and Hoovers, and Kirby's, and none would filter the
    air like the Rainbow. 
    
    Mike

    Re Rainbow vacuums ...
    
    I think what is being said here is that while the Rainbow doesn't
    recirculate as much fine dust, having picked it up, it doesn't pick
    up any better than a cheaper vacuum.  It also has a disadvantage that
    it must be filled with water and emptied (washed out) regularly.
    
    It's a matter of value for money.  $1200 to pick up the same as a
    $300 vacuum is an awful expensive price for good filtering.
    
    Stuart

    
    
    but don't buy the vacuum from the salesman. look in the clasifieds and
    you'll find brand new ones for much less.
    
    Thats what we're doing...............
    
    simon

    But Simon, I hate to ask this, IF they are SO great, why are people
    selling NEARLY NEW ones at about a $900 LOSS ?????
    
    Stuart

According to Consumer Reports, not only do Rainbow vacuums not work well
as vacuums, but they also do a poor job of keeping dust out of the air.
As I said, they demo impressively, but that's only because the buyer doesn't
know what to compare it to.  Of course, the people who have shelled out
$1200 for one of these wonder-devices often need to feel that they've done
the right thing, so they sing the praises.  But a lot of people become
quickly disillusioned and try to sell their Rainbow and buy a "real"
vacuum instead.

				Steve

    I like the idea about venting outside.  If you don't want to spring for
    the central vac, some brands (Electrolux or most shop-style vacs) have
    the ability to hook the hose up to the exhaust (for unclogging).  May be
    cheaper to adapt 30' of cheap plastic hose to the exhaust (don't need the
    expensive hose since there's positive plastic), then get a board with a
    hole in it.  Plug the vacuum in by the window, close the board into the
    window, and fire away!

I used to date a Rainbow sales rep.  She worked out of an office in PA.  The 
sales force used to laugh when then sold one at full price.  The demo she gave
was very impressive "Look at all the dust we just pulled out of your pillow"
and the such.  You could see the dirty water and it did make for a good show.
During a sales presentation, they had a number they could call to 'try to talk
the sales manager down a few hundred'.  In this case, it was an answering
machine.  I forget how much they were allowed to drop the price on the spot
before having to really get in touch with someone (a different number).  This
was about 9 years ago.

Brian

    
    re .13
    
    If you believe that Consumer Reports knows anything about what they
    report on, then I have this bridge in Brooklin that's for sale. I lost
    interest in CR years ago when they rated the Bose 901 speakers as the
    very best speakers in the world no matter what the price. Their data
    has been proven to be flawed, and very bias. 
    
    As for the price...I bought my new for $600. List at the time was
    $1100.
    
    How does is suck: When compared to my mother-in-laws kirby, it beat it
    hands down. My mothers Eurka which was only 2 weeks old when be bought
    ours were very comperable. However the Rainbow put a lot less dust into
    the air then the Rainbow. My Mom would like a Rainbow, but it's too
    heavy for her.
    
    Mike

    It does as well as a Kirby, Eureka, etc, but those are all big name-
    brand expensive vacs.

    How does it do against those nasty cheap Japanese imports, like Sharp
    or Panasonic? (the crowd sucks in its breath -- ooooh :-)
    My Panasonic picks up a lot (when the floor attachment belt is not
    smouldering :-), and it's pretty reasonable about dust when you change
    the bag early.  The clever engineers also noted the prevalance of deep
    carpet in America, and directed the exhaust straight down from the bottom
    of its round little belly.  So I get "secondary filtering" through my
    carpeting!  Hee hee, couldn't resist...

      I  too have some strong disagreements with Consumer Reports.  As a
      result, I never use them as more than one  of  several  points  of
      comparison when I'm making a buying decision.  However, making the
      blanket statement that "Their data has been proven to  be  flawed,
      and very bias[ed]" is, I think, a bit too strong.

      The  only  "evidence"  you present is a subjective comparison of a
      Eureka vacuum and your Rainbow.   I  say  "subjective"  because  I
      assume  that  you  didn't  do any formal experiments that produced
      quantified, repeatable results.  Right? And, no, your not expected
      to do such experiments.  But CR does, and lacking equally rigorous
      contradictory results you should not call them "flawed".

      I  also  find it very hard indeed to believe that Consumer Reports
      "rated the Bose 901 speakers as the  very  best  speakers  in  the
      world no matter what the price."  Such a broad statement seems out
      of character.  I've always found their recommendations  to  be  so
      heavily  qualified  with details of the specific situation they're
      considering that they frequently aren't of much use to me.  (Since
      my situation often differs significantly.)

      
      Now,  about  the Rainbow vacuum -- If you'd come to my house you'd
      probably find lots of things which you think are way  over  priced
      for what they do and the way I use them.  You'd be right and you'd
      be free to laugh at me. You'd also find a 14 year old Hover vacuum
      cleaner  which  I  bough  new  for  around  $125,  if  I  remember
      correctly.  So you can see why I think that even  at  "only"  $600
      your  Rainbow  is ridiculously overpriced for a machine that, even
      if it were measurably better in some way(s), is a lot more  bother
      to use and does the same job in the end.

      Which  is why, even though I'll laugh at you and the other Rainbow
      owners, you should continue to enjoy your  machines  if  you  like
      them. After all, Rainbow salesmen and women have a right to earn a
      living -- Its the American Way!

    
      rep .16
     
       "but it's to heavy for her"
      Not ot mention the pain in the a__ it is to empty and clean the tank.
    We hated the one we had and dumped it after a few years. Now back to
    the topic before this rathole becomes to large.
      I saw several topics refering to the use of ultrasonic humidifiers
    as a solution to the dust problem and I would just like to mention that
    most of them will add to the problem by adding white dust to the air.
    They are a no no. Better that you get a good carpet and furniture
    cleaning or get rid of the carpets altogether. Then follow up with the
    addition of a very good air filter for the bedroom. Take the bedding
    out weekly and give it a good beating on the old clothes line . Buy foam
    pillows also and cover the matress w/a plastic cover. Put the animals
    outside and dust everything w/a damp rag. Then clean clean clean.
     Remember if it's not dusty outside then it must be something you
    are doing.

    
    re .18
    
    Saying CR's data has been proven to be flawed and biased isn't too
    strong. It's a fact. Especially in their Automotive section. They've
    used outdated data on vehicles that they didn't like. They'd have
    conflicting data...example...One car made by Pontiac having bad marks,
    but the exact same vehicle which is made in the exact same plant only
    with a Chevy on it having no bad marks.
    
    And yes my test was a subjective comparison, but so's CR. 90% of their
    tests are subjective comparisons. They rarely do controled studies.
    
    Now as compared to the $125 vacuums....well you get what you pay for.
    My mom owned Hoovers for years. She finially got a Eureka because her
    $125 Hoover couldn't pick up the dog hairs. The Eureka and the Rainbow
    had no problem. There definetly is a difference between the cleaning
    ability of the Rainbow, Eureka and the Hoover. 
    
    Mike

More on the Consumer Reports rathole:

We seem to have two types of participants in this discussion.  Mike Diamond
implies that because CR sometimes makes ludicrous claims or does irrelevant
testing, everything they do is bogus.  Steve Lionel seems to think that
everything they do is on the up-and-up.  I think the truth is somewhere
in between, but it's hard to tell where.  If you have an emotional attachment
to your (car, vacuum cleaner, stereo), don't read CR's review of it.  If
you have a better source of information (one that has neither a financial
nor an emotional interest), use it.  I don't have strong opinions on vacuum
cleaners or washing machines, so I'm willing to read CR and use its advice
as one datum in making a decision.

BTW, my favorite CR off-the-wall test was the way they tested the nutritional
value of breads.  They fed rats nothing but bread, and rated brands based
on how long the rats lived.

    
    re Sacks
    
    I never said that everything they do is bogus, so please don't say that
    I did. What I did imply is that they have many instances with flawed
    data. The problem with taking their stuff as bible is...How do you know
    if what you're taking as the bible is factual. With their current track
    record it's difficult to know. The data may be correct, but it's
    difficult to know.
    
    Mike

    I do not take as gospel everything CU says, but when they do their
    tests and report on the results, some things speak for themselves.
    
    As for the Bose 901, I think Mike is sadly mistaken.  Indeed, Bose
    sued CU for making disparaging comments about the 901 in their review;
    Bose lost the case.  And CU never makes claims of "best in the world".
    
    				Steve

Someone in the AUDIO notes file came up with a good rule of thumb on 
Consumer's Union:  They are not to be trusted on any product that also has 
a hobbyist press.  That is, their audio, auto, etc. ratings are dubious, but 
breakfast cereals and washing machines, they're a safe bet.

I laugh every month at the claim that the magazine "contains no advertisements"
while the blow-ins are falling out in blizzard proportions.

But Tom, surely Zippy subscribes to Popular Washing Machine.

    Just because vacuum brand x will pick up dog hairs doesn't mean that
    it is a good all-round vacuum.  There are a number of cheap vacuums
    that will pick up hairs no problem, and there are a lot that don't.
    There are some models by brand x that will pick up hairs no problem
    while other models fail miserably.
    
    Some vacuums work well on textured carpets, others are useless.  Some
    are easy to use, others are a pain.
    
    You basically have to find the right vacuum for the kind of environment
    YOU have and the needs you have.  In most circumstances it is NOT
    necessary spend a lot more than $300 (new) to get adequate cleaning
    from a portable or central vac (small sys) providing you chose the
    best cleaner for the job.
    
    Whether the dust control output of a vacuum like the Rainbow is worth
    another $900 is up to you ... You could buy 2 electronic air cleaners
    for an FHA furnace for that price (and they usually work VERY well)
    or you could buy 9 Bionaire portable air cleaners and purifiers for
    the same price ... one for every room in the house ... including the
    bathroom!
    
    Personally speaking, I've got other uses for $900 than the extra on
    an awkward to use vacuum.
    
    Stuart

    as the author of .0 I'd like to clarify some things:
    
    1. yes, if we clean, clean, clean we'd have no problems. However we
       live on a fairly busy main street, and dust comes with the
       territory. One day after dusting/vacuuming we gets dust balls
       roaming the house!
    
       Would an air cleaner help with this level of problem? 
    
    2. Given it's an old house how easy would it be to install a central
       vacuuming system?
    
    3. For good or bad we all have waterbeds (got them years ago when one
       of the kids was very sick and needed it for warmth). Wonder if
       those critters add to the problem?
    
    4. We got a humidifer a few days ago. Couldn't find an ultrasonic one
       in 4 stored (including Spags, HQ, BJs). 
    
    /Tim

    
    re .23 Steve,
    
    Nope, I'm right. During the 70's CU rated the Bose 901's as the best
    speakers on the market no matter what the price. Later, during the 80's
    the Bose 901's fell out of favor with CU (probably because they got
    someone who knew something about audio). It was during the 80's that CU
    got sued by Bose. As for best in the world, well they use to make that
    claim. They probably had to stop because it is very misleading. With
    the Bose 901's, they really couldn't make that claim until they had
    tested every single speaker out there. So they were forced to change
    their wording.
    
    As for their testing, well I'm not sure that even that is done very
    well. Several years ago they did extensive testing on motor oils. Now
    everyone who reads it believes that this must be the truth. You'd think
    that they were the first to do any comparative testing of motor oils. I
    found their test to be interesting, and it seemed liked a pretty good
    test, yet for some reason their tests had very different results of a
    similiar test done by UTEP (University of Texas El Paso) on motor oils
    about 5 years earlier. Now who are you suppose to believe, the test
    done by CU or the one done by UTEP. Personally I'll chose the one done
    by UTEP. BTW Pittsburg labs also did a similar test about the same time
    UTEP did theirs, and the results were pretty much the same as UTEP.
    
    Mike

    
    Irrespective of their efficiancy, vacs are simply alleviating the
    symptoms rather than curing the problem.  Tim - what do you think is
    the cause of the dust?  (apart from the usual cause - house dust
    is supposed to be 60% dead skin cells....)
    
    I used to live in an old house on a busy road.  Our dust problem was
    caused both by infiltration from the road and by vibration in the
    structure causing the crumbly old plaster to throw dust (this was
    really close to the road).  It was greatly reduced after renovations
    which included new windows & a front entrance hall. We suspect that the
    dead airspace in the hall was allowing the dust to settle out before it
    reached the rooms.  The renovations included flexible caulking around
    all timber/plaster interfaces, plus painting and wallpapering which
    sealed the surfaces.
    
    It might be worth seeing if you can find a public lab to look analyse
    the samples.  Take a static sample from on top of the moulding around
    a door frame or window and air samples by sticking a coffee filter
    on the inlet hose of your vac & run for a few mins.  You could get
    some clues as to how/where the dust is originating.
    
    
    Regarding the consumer retorts question, in moving to the US on
    relocation, I pretty much had to replace every electrical item that I
    owned, plus buy a car and a few items like airconditioners that I knew
    *nothing* about.  Not being from the US, I knew squat about the makes &
    models on offer, so I referred to two sources, CR and the various
    interest notesfiles.  So far, the only thing to break was the one item
    that I brought with me - a portable Kenwood CD player (I believe that
    CR panned it).  Now, I don't mean to imply that without CR I'd be
    installing a new 8-track in my Pinto this weekend, but I think
    that without their efforts (blow ins or not) overall product quality
    would be further down the toilet.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    
    

Re: .27

Re: Central Vac:

It was very easy in my current house, because it's a single-level ranch on
crawl space.  All pipes went throught the crawl space and then up into the
wall.

Basically, you need to be able to run 2" pvc pipe from wherever you put the
central unit to each place that you need an outlet.  I have a 30' hose (I
would not recommend anything longer), and get by with 3 outlets for a 2700
ft� single-level house.  When I wanted central vac in a previous house,
they were going to run the pipes between floors through closets.  We moved
before we were ready to install it, but it didn't sound bad.

Re: Waterbeds:

We have all waterbeds in our house (great for young kids who keep wetting -
no rubber sheets or ruined mattresses, cleans up easily).  I would say that
you are better off with a waterbed.  They're easier to clean, and dust mites
don't live too well in the water ;-),

    
    re .26
    
    If I had paid a extra $900 for my rainbow I'd agree with you. But I
    bought a brand new Rainbow from a dealer for only $400 more. Now you
    add in the money you have to shell out for filters for the next 20
    years, the gap starts to close. Now add in the price you'd have to pay
    for a air filtering system, and I'm now way ahead of you.
    
    If you think your Hoover is as good as my Rainbow, then more power to
    you. Be happy, and I honestly hope it does work as well for you.
    Personnaly I'll stick with my Rainbow, and I'll be just as happy.
    
    Mike

    I installed a central vac in an old house.  Assuming you can get into
    the cellar, doing the first floor shouldn't be a problem.  It really
    isn't a big deal.  I still haven't gotten to the second floor yet
    (waiting for when we renovate) but the idea of going through closets
    sounds pretty good if you don't/won't have access to the inside of
    walls.  Our house is very spread out (additions all over the place) 
    but 3 outlets downstairs is sufficient; one upstairs, when we get to 
    it, will do that.  I also put one in the garage and one in the cellar.

    Since the subject of central vacs came up...
    
    Can anyone tell me if it is possible to use a "carpet beater" head on a
    central vac? Are you restricted to a suction only head.
    
    

    RE .33
    Yes, there are many available for central vacs. They come with a long
    electrical cord, giving you something else to trip on in case the
    hose doesn't do the trick!
    
    John

    We have one and it came with a special hose which includes a cord in
    it. You just need a plug near where the hose plugs into the wall. I'm
    real pleased with ours.

    There are two types. One uses the air flow to work the brush (i.e.
    turbine) and the better one has its own electric motor and an on/off
    switch at the head. As the prev. reply said, the cord is clipped to the
    hose and mine had about 6' of cord at the wall outlet end of the hose.
    
    Eric

    A friend of mine had one that the hose has the cord in it -and- the
    connection of the hose at the wall also coupled the cord.  He would
    just pop it in and you essentially had no cord to worry about.
    
    Steve

We have one of the turbine models.  Nothing like vacuuming at Warp VII.

	"Captain, I dunna think she can take much moor of this."

Stan

    I would expect the turbine models to be less effective and less
    reliable.
    
    	You will have to "steal" some of the vacuum to power the turbine.
    In addition I can't figure out how to power the turbine without drawing
    the dust, etc... over the turbine. This should cause it to wear out.
    
    	Am I right?
    
    				Mark
    				(who is seriously considering this for the
    				next house)

I can't speak too much about the reliability of the turbine models.  We have
had ours about five years with no problems.  But then we don't have allergies
and use it daily (maybe quarterly ;-).  It has three moving parts: turbine,
belt and beater bar (oh yeah, and a few bearings) so it is pretty simple.  It
may be more reliable than an electric motor in a dusty situation plus you have
a cord that, by definition, is in constant motion which could be another 
failure point.  I wind up disassembling the thing whenever we do the bedroom
to remove vast quantities of my wife's shoulder length hair that is wound 
around the beater bar brushes.  What a pain.

My wife has found a use for the central vac.  It has about a 4 foot extension
pipe.  Now, by coincidence, that is about as close as she is willing to get
to a spider or insect. THOOOoooooomp!  But then I guess you can do that with
a canister model also.

The turbine probably does reduce the suction but it still seems to do the job.
The dust does pass through the turbine.  This means you can't suck up the cat
but the turbine plays hell with its tail.  ;-) (Actually, we don't have any
cats.  So you catfanatics need not blast me.)  I can't complain.  But then they 
don't call me Mr. Clean. :-)

Stan

    I've got an electric model.  Works fine.  When I got it, I asked about
    the turbine model and the salesman dissuaded me, saying that the more
    you need the beater (i.e. the thicker/shaggier the rug) the less
    effective the turbine becomes.  Maybe he just didn't have one to sell,
    I don't know.... ;-)
    
    With the cord-in-the-hose arrangement, there's really no hassle with
    the electric one.  You do need an electric outlet reasonably near each
    vacuum outlet, but that's not too hard to arrange.  There are some
    designs now (more money, of course) that take the electric power for 
    the beater head directly from contacts in the vacuum outlet, so all 
    you have to plug in is the hose.

I have both turbine and electric beater bars.  The turbine I got with my
central vac in a condo (I kept the turbine when I moved), and the beater bar
from my Kenmore canister vac fits my current central vac.

The turbine you have to let "rev up" before tackling thick shag, throw rugs,
etc.  When it's spinning at speed, it seems to work ok, but it takes longer
to use because it can bog down too easily.  With a 12 amp motor on the
central vac, you don't really notice the suction loss.  The only problem
that we've had with ours (aside from the standard problems of long hair or
strings wrapped around the beater bar, which is independent of the drive
technology) is occasionally getting something large lodged in the turbine,
jamming it or throwing the belt.  Repair is literally a 30 second operation.

We bought a hose with the power cord built in for our current central vac.
I've installed an electric outlet next to one vac outlet, and really need to
install another electric outlet near another vac outlet.  If you're DIYing
the central vac installation (I didn't), it should be easy to put in the
electrical outlet at the same time as the vac outlet.

re .40:

You should make your wife a board to smoosh spiders.
For complete instructions, see note 1 in HYDRA::DAVE_BARRY.

RE: .43

I have already built a (well, several) boards to DB's specs for my personal use
and have succeeded in some of his more advanced projects like a length of rope
and a pile of sawdust.  My wife is slight of build and a board that is a 
minimum of four feet long, her CPA (closest point of approach) would probably
be too heavy for her to manage without damaging delicate light fixtures etc.
I think the vac is a very good solution for her.  Of course, she still has
her preferred method to fall back on.....

	Her: "Stan! There's a spider in here."

	Me:  "Wait a minute!  I am watching the movie.  I'll be there at the 
	      first commercial."

	Her: "But he has me trapped on the toilet and you're watching Cinemax!"

	Me:  "Shhhh.  I am watching the movie."

	Her: "Heellllppp!"

	Me:  (grumble) "All right!  I'm coming!" (grumble)
			   \ /
	Spider: "Splut!"  --O--
			   / \

Another triumph of the couch potatoes of the world over the ever increasing
population of deadly, evil, poisonous arachnids.

Stan

    one more question on central vacs.
    
    What hapens if some lovable little child jams his GI Joe doll or
    whatever into one of the inlets? Have any of you central vac owners out
    there ever had this problem.
    	It can be bad enough with a conventional vacuum when yu manage to
    jam something in the hose but this is usually prevented by using the
    power head/beater bar. Having exposed inlets all around the house that
    little fingers can pry open... I'd be worried about having to rip our
    walls to get at the pipes to dislodge the obstruction.
    

re .44:

Have you considered making a board out of balsa wood?

>			   \ /
>	Spider: "Splut!"  --O--
>			   / \

Your spider has only six legs.  Are you sure it was a spider?  Maybe it was
a physically challenged one -- I mean even before it said "Splut!"

    re: .45
    It can be a problem, of course.  Although the directions say to
    glue all the pipe joints, I opted to merely push them together
    when I installed my system, because of the fear that something
    might get stuck.  After 3 (?) years, the push-together joints
    have proven entirely satisfactory.  
    I also had to take advantage of the fact once too, when something
    got lodged at a tee fitting and the whole thing wedged solidly.
    I pulled the pipes apart and cleaned out the obstruction.  All
    this was done in the basement, where all the pipes are accessible.
    It might be trickier with a pipe going to the second floor, but
    if you leave all the joints unglued you ought to be able, if necessary,
    to pull the pipe down out of the wall and clear it out.  Odds are 
    the need will never arise though.  The odds are extremely high that
    any object will get stuck just inside the outlet opening, which is 
    smaller in diameter than the pipe itself.  Once something gets into
    the pipe, it stands an excellent chance of making it all the way.
    I had a problem because I picked up a long sliver of wood from
    remodeling, which couldn't make the turn at the tee.  In general,
    I think the system is designed so that things that are able to get
    into the pipe can go all the way through.
    
    If need be, one can also use a plumber's snake to dislodge
    obstructions.  I think it's easier to leave the joints (at
    least some strategic joints) unglued.  I had planned to put
    in cleanout plugs at strategic points, but they don't seem
    to make them in sizes to fit the pipe used for house vac systems.

    Re .47
    
    I would decond the idea of not gluing the pipes or atleast leaving
    one joint in each straight run unglued.
    
    We have central vac in a colonial so it runs mostly through the attic
    for the bedrroms and through the basement for main level.  I found
    that the kitchen vacume port had weakened suction.  I ended up
    having to cut into the line in the attic and running a plumbers
    snake through the pipe.  Evidently one of the kids found it fun to
    roll up aluminum foil into "ping-pong" size balls and popping them 
    into the wall port for the c-vac. It was actually funny once I found
    them.  But I decided based on that lesson that I'd splice the cut
    pipe back together with a splice coupling but instead of gluing it
    I just wrapped it once with duct tape. 

    My 6 yead old 2000+ sq ft colonial hasn't had any problems. Several
    things have had "rides" to the basement without problem. My hose has
    clogged (smaller diameter than the pipes) and that was fun. The coiled
    hose had wood chips wedge diagonal in the hose and then the rest of the
    debris lodged against it. Bending the hose actually cleared it out. All
    my wall pipes are straight drops to the basement where they all route
    to the vac. Even the 2nd floor ones. I would think that stuff would
    stick at either the bend at the inlet or at the elbow in the basement
    which would make the "unglued" option attractive for the basement
    joints. Our unit was about $300 and took me an afternoon to install
    while the walls were open before the drywallers arrived. Well worth it.

Re: .45

The kids' toys get stuck just inside the wall outlet, where there's a 90�
elbow of reduced size.  I've been able to extract all the toys without
disassembling anything.

The installer warned me of one major hazard of central vac - don't vacuum up
Christmas tree needles, they get stuck in the bends and eventually clog the
pipe.

    re: .50
    
>The installer warned me of one major hazard of central vac - don't vacuum up
>Christmas tree needles, they get stuck in the bends and eventually clog the
>pipe.
    
    
    so how do you pick up the needles every year?

    RE:49
    
    We have central vac throughout the house.  My wife has always used
    the vac hose to suck up the Xmas tree needles and even a tinsel
    here and there.  No problems with the pipes at all!
    
    

Re: .51

�    so how do you pick up the needles every year?

Easy - I pull the branches off the pole and put them back in the box. ;-)

I can't comment directly on this, because we have had an artificial tree
since before we got the central vac due to allergy problems.

I have noticed that some types of evergreens used for Christmas trees in
Colorado have very long needles - perhaps 5 or 6 inches long.  Perhaps it
was this type of needles that the installer had seen causing clogs.

    I've never had any problem with spruce or balsam needles.  Scotch pine
    and other similar long-needled types might conceivably be a problem, 
    I suppose.

    I can't resist the "clog" thread.  When in college, our dorm had a _real_
    central vac.  We called it the super-suck.  The pipes were something like
    2 1/2" diameter, and the engine and tank were in the basement.  I'm not
    sure exactly how it worked, but I think it would wash things into the
    sewer to dispose of them (it had a tank the size of a large well water
    tank).

    Anyway, it did clog once.  I knew because I lived accross the hall from
    the engine.  The janitor came down and pulled a couple of magazines out.
    They had made it all the way to the basement...

    Remember on of those in my college dorm also. We had just painted the
    inside walls and had the sliding door of the central room open to vent
    it (no screens). Well it seems that we attracted every fly in southern
    RI onto the wet paint. Since the paint wasn't dry yet, we sucked them
    up with the vacuum. Must have been interesting when they emptied it
    out.
    
    Eric

    RE-.2
    FWIW- The pipes in my system are 2.25"id it seems to be a fairly
    standard size used for central vac's.
    
    I'm managed to plug mine up a couple of times once required the use of
    the reccomended snake a garden hose sans water of course worked like a
    charm.
    
    -j
    

    Hello,
    
    I just looked at a house that requires much updating and lots of
    repairs.  I'd appreciate opinions on some of the repairs that I
    currently know are would be necessary.
    
    Its an inexpensive house in a nice town so I thought it would be worth 
    checking out.  But i've been wrong before.
    
    It is 120 years old.  The style is victorian farmhouse.  Unfortunately,
    the exterior is siding. It needs total updating and cosmetics.   
    
    The beams are complete gone.  Is replacing beams a disasterous effort?
    It has private water and sewer both service are very old.  I'm getting
    exact dates tomorrow on those and roof and plumming.  
    
    I am most concerened about the beam situation and would like to know
    more about the repair process.
    
     
    thanks,
    
    Linda
          
    

    What beams?  Where?  (Roof, sills, ?)
    

    Hi,
    
    Sorry, I'm new at this.  The beams in the basement.
    
    linda
    

    That hold up the floor?  Or around the edges, that sit on the
    foundation (the sills)?
    
    Assuming it's the floor beams (joists), or even if it's the sills, for
    that matter...it all depends.  There are so many ways of framing
    a house.  It can be done, one way or another, with any system, but
    some would be easier than others.
    
    If it's the floor joists, what you'd probably end up doing is tearing
    out the floor (completely), taking out the old joists, and replacing
    joists + flooring.  This sounds pretty dramatic, but it wouldn't be
    all that hard, probably.  A lot depends on just how the joists are tied
    into the sills.  If you're talking post and beam, are you going to
    want to replace the joists with properly tenoned beams of the same
    form as the old, sitting in notches in the sills?  If so, you're
    talking about (probably) some considerable expense because of the
    amount of labor involved in all the tenoning and fitting.  One could
    cheat, no doubt, and use 2x10s or something with joist hangers; that
    would be the fastest, but be about as non-authentic as you could get.
    Not that it's going to be cheap in any case.
    
    If you've already got a more-or-less "modern" frame (i.e. not post
    and beam), then joist hangers and 2x10s (or whatever size you need)
    would be fine, I expect.
    
    Once everything gets torn apart, you may discover the sills need
    replacing (wot sits on the foundation).  This gets a little more
    difficult.  It can be done, but now one has to somehow hold the
    house up in the air while taking out the sill and replacing it,
    and here is where the framing of the house can make a big difference.
    Some houses are easier to jack up than others.
    It's also been my experience that it's hard to find somebody who is
    willing to jack up a house, although I may have just looked in the
    wrong places.

Depending on how many of the floor joists are being replaced, you may not
have to remove the whole floor.  Youl could replace the joise and toenail
the joise to the existing flooring.  This would probably result is some
squeeking, but would probably be livable.  Especially if you anticipated
that you would be remodelling that room in the future (and the remodelling
would involve floor changes).

The sills can be done.  This Old House has done it a number of times.  I
doubt it is a job for the DIY, though.

For the work that may be involved, it sounds like you would have to get a
good price.

Ed..

It sounds like what you really want to do is get a serious expert to look 
at this house if you are in love with it......floor joist problems can be 
serious as pointed out previously. you may want to look into a house 
inpection service, there are a number of recommendation in note 2016.n

A house inspector will cost you some bucks, but you will get a report that 
tells you how much pain, aggrevation, and $$$ you can expect to put into 
that house. If you get a report back that says it is good but needs $25 
worth of work done, then you can show the report to the owner (or 
paraphrase it for them) and make a bid appropriately. If it cost $25K for 
the work, start at $40k lower and negotiate, your time and pain are worth 
something to get the work done! You can add the cost of work into your 
mortgage if you work with the bank at the time of financing....

    Vic H

The base note referred to "beams" so I don't think it's talking about joists.
What are the dimensions of the bad beams?  How many are there?

    The 'beams' may be just a symptom of other problems, too. Are
    the beams shot because of termites? Carpenter ants? Dry rot?
    Whatever the cause, that's got to get fixed, too.....
    
    Wonder what the siding is covering up?
    
    If the damage is limited and can be corrected relatively easily,
    it may be worth it. But earlier notes are correct to suggest that
    you find a good inspector and get a written report of what needs
    fixing and how much it may cost. You might also ask him to itemize
    'other things' you're likely to find.
    
    For example, if you know the water ans sewer situation is old
    and need of repair, what about wiring? Furnace?
    
    You really need to enter into a purchase like that with your eyes
    wide open or you're likely to pay and pay and pay. Why do you think
    it's so cheap ... and still on the market?

    This is a rather interesting discussion...  I spoke with the author or
    this note.  She has withdrawn her intention to purchase this house and
    has opted for another.
    
    f

   What if the main beam appears to be the high point in the floor and the
floors slope down and then up again to the walls (like a "w").  Is it reasonable
to add support beams under the joists as suggested in a reply here?  If the
joists need reinforcing, can this be done from the basement rather than through
the floors?  Has anyone had an estimate for having this type of work done by
a contractor?  Are we talking in the thousands?
	Linda

    If you're talking about the first floor, it should indeed be possible
    to add additional mid-point support for the joists down in the
    basement.  One could also jack up the joists, attach new floor joists
    to the sides of the old ones ("sistering") and reinforce the floor
    that way.  However, if the joists have been sagging in pleasant
    lassitude for years and years, they are not going to unbend very well.
    It would probably be a long-term project to get them to straighten out,
    jacking a little at a time over a period of months as they gradually
    straighten out.
    
    If you're talking about second-floor floors, then you have a much more
    complicated problem.  One would (probably) have to:
    1. strongly support the first floor by adding additional support in
       basement so it would be strong enough to jack against;
    2. take down the first-floor ceilings to expose the second-floor
       joists;
    3. jack up the 2nd-floor joists and add "sister" joists;
    4. replace the 1st-floor ceilings.
    
    An easier solution is to think that wavy floors are part of the charm
    of an old house and live with them.
    

   The problem is much more noticeable on the first floor than the second
floor.  I think I could live with the second floor as is, but the first is
pretty bad.
	Linda

    Linda.....how bad is bad? My floors are as you describe.....maybe 8
    inches max difference over the surface. The kitchen has a nice
    rool in it that I think has a nice effect....my wife likes to stand on
    the high part to add to her height when she is talking to my son!
    ( he is still taller.....).
    
    The floor is 150 years old....I couldn't see any reason to change it.
    
    By the way....the main beams are 10 by 10 oak...the floors joists are
    maybe 4 by 4 and spaced 2 feet apart! Definitly didn't follow any
    building codes.
    
    Marc H.

    Three years ago we bought an old two family...my guess is that
    it is atleast 75 years old...if not older.   I have yet to find
    another house like this one...so I thought I would ask if anyone
    has heard of this before.
    
    The house was built on a rock ledge.....part of my cellar is pure
    ledge.  The cellar contains a mechanism to let the water flow through 
    the cellar to a drain at the other end.  When it rains heavy...we have 
    a steady small flow of water which comes in one hole...flows down the
    sidewall and goes out the drain.  In three years we have had only one 
    small problem with water overflowing into our cellar.  We have debated 
    whether we should patch up the hole...but our fear is the water has to 
    go somewhere and will find a new place to come in. 
    
    The house also has a flat roof that is pitched inwards to a center
    drain.  The drain goes right through the middle of the house and
    the water is drained "somewhere"!! Could it be connected to the
    sewer line???    Has anyone heard of a center drain going
    through the center of their house??  We have yet to have any
    problems...(knock on wood!!)
    
    Is this the only house in the world that was built like this?????
    
    Sandy 
    
     

re: 4657.0                 Old House - Center drain                  No replies
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    The house was built on a rock ledge.....part of my cellar is pure
>    ledge.  The cellar contains a mechanism to let the water flow through 
>    the cellar to a drain at the other end.  When it rains heavy...we have 
>    a steady small flow of water which comes in one hole...flows down the
>    sidewall and goes out the drain.  In three years we have had only one 

	My house has a similar arrangement. have you a field stone foundation,
	granite block, or concrete or other ?

	If its a field stone foundation, the real solution may be to 
	put some impervious material around the house (2 - 4 feet wide); 
	like clay soil, plastic, heavy impervious maaterial, and cover with
	dirt, and landscape AWAY from the foundation walls.

	If the leak is due to a spring near the house ... which is possible.
	I had a relative whose house was built on top of a spring, and every
	spring it flowed copiously. They needed two sump pumps to keep up
	with it. The yhad bough the hosue in late August during the dry season.


>    drain.  The drain goes right through the middle of the house and
>    the water is drained "somewhere"!! Could it be connected to the

	Common arrangement in city apartments houses. 'Course I haven't
	lived there in along time.

	I believe its done that way so the water doesn't freeze in winter.
	ie run through the house walls. With a center roof drain, how else 
	could the drain go ?

	You could 'pipe' (pardon the pun) some music or noise near the top
	of the drain, and have family members check the walls to see if
	they can hear the noise (music) as it resonates through the pipes.

	If you use something with a lot of base (drums, etc), it might help
	the resonance better.

    The house has a concrete foundation....and the side where the 
    water comes in is the side that has the driveway and the tar
    abuts the concrete.  
    
    I don't believe we have a spring...but I do know that...that side
    of my yard is all hill and the water drains right into my
    driveway.   Since we had that heavy rain....there is a steady
    stream of water running down the hill.  My basement has stayed
    dry...I don't know how!!!   
    
    Funny you say that Center Drains are common...because anyone I
    have discussed this with...says they never heard of it before.  The
    only one that heard about it was the home inspector we had when
    we initially bought the house.  I will admit...rain/snow does not
    stay on the roof for long...and we have not had any problems!
    
    Thanks for sharing your knowledge/experiences!!
    
    Sandy
    
                                               

    Well, I was out exploring and happened on a forlorn looking old saltbox 
    surrounded by industry. The house is empty and there weren't any signs 
    saying "Stay Out" so I climbed in thru an open door (ok, I pushed a piece 
    of plywood aside first) and took a look around. LOTS of original detail.
    5 fireplaces, beehive oven, beaded & boxed beams, etc. Things you don't
    see in a house anymore. An elegant lady that has definitely seen better 
    days. Naturally, I was hooked. The lot was nice a LONG time ago but now is
    an urban blight. If I was to truly cast my sanity aside, contact the owners
    and obtain the house it would have to be moved, something I've never done.
    
    Anybody out there ever done this?  What's REALLY involved in the 
    dismantling, moving, storing (for a time) and resurrection of a house 
    like this?  I'm sure it would be like most of my projects: multiply
    both the estimated time and money by a factor of three and then double
    that! 
    
    Any references, tips, and/or caveats you might have would be appreciated.

   ~Dick Daigle