Conference rdvax::grateful

    I thought Blues Traveler specifically *wasn't* doing HORDE this year
    either?
    
    And looking at the lineup, HORDE seems to be slowly turning into
    Lollapalooza II
    

    the report in .0 is correct about BT...only a handfull of appearances.
    I'd like to know more specifics about the "pull-out" by WSP...on the
    surface seems a little childish and far from the original spirit of
    HORDE.
    rfb who wouldn't have gone anyway

    maybe they don't like primus?

                     <<< Note 572.2 by SSDEVO::R_BARNES >>>

I'm going - It'll be a blast.  Neil Young!  I think BT is supposed
to show for the Great Woods date.  Primus - where else can I hear
a bass like Les'?  Beck ain't really my cup of tea but his small
dose'll be a fun.  I know nothing about Soul Coughing... anyone?
Kula Shakar (don't get it :).  Big Head Todd not gonna be there?
That's too bad.  

As for Wisespread Cheese I mean - Widespread Panic - Too bad but
from their demands when they played BOS' free show I'm not surprised.
I can only imagine their demands were probably related to length
of set or billing status.  Too bad too cause I really like em!

bobo

    kula Shaker
    
    some neo hippies from the UK
    
    influenced heavily from ravi shankar if my brain cell serves me
    
    they have been classifies as another "grateful dead-esque jam band"

	Kula Shaker is pretty decent.  They are really into indian/hinduism,
	and thus incorporate a lot of tabla/sitar sounds into thier form of	
	music which is heavily mid-60's pop influenced.  On their album they
	said the Beatles had Maharishi, we had our own version. 
	One tune, "Grateful to be Dead/Jerry was Here", is kinda interesting.

	Whether they're for real remains to be seen.  

	--

	Beck - I'd love to see Beck live.  I think this guy is for real,
	and dig his Odelay album a lot.  It combines old blues and a wide	
	variety of styles, sort of a blend of 90's rap+rhythm/new stuff with	
	traditional approaches.  Dare ya to find the sample from It's All Over
	Now, Baby Blue, somewhere on that album.. His other album "Mellow Gold"
	is worth it just for Loser.

	/Ken

    
    
    i saw Widespread Panic at the Jazz Fest in New Orleans and they
    did a real nice set...  if they feel they're being hosed by the
    organizers then congrats to them for having the balls, clout, whatever
    to tell them to stuff it and pull out...  fromt eh local level to the
    national level the music business is chock full of schmucks who will
    promise you anything to get you to do you thing and then jerk you
    around mercilessly afterwards...  with some it's simple incompetance...
    with others it is a willful manipulation and disregard of others...
    
    if i were looking for my "big break" and trying to "make it" then
    something like HORDE would appeal to me and i'd do what ever i could to
    get on the bill...  but professional is as professional does, and if 
    someones jerking someone else around, it's UN-professional and deserves
    to fall apart....
    
    					da ve

    ...so far we've got tickets for U2 and Jethro Tull...the Tull show
    should be GRATE, as they band is playing small venues for their 30th
    Anniversary Tour....we'll be seeing them @ the Hampton Beach Casino
    Ballroom (remember Todd last Summer, Tom??)
    
    and U2, I've only seen once, on their 1st tour (Boston, circa 1980)...
    should be another good one....don't have my Further tickets yet,
    although a pal said "we're all set"...mehopes.......
    
    macky

	Got Grate Went Tix last week!  Not really much to MOSS over, but
still nice to get the those hologram tix.  These are purple with some sort
of buffalo head looking silouette with a cup of coffee(?) superimposed on it.
Who knows!  

	So how many others are planning to make this trip?  At this point, 
I think we've got about 10 people heading up from Mass and points further
south.	Some plans of pre-show hikes are forming, and maybe an RV rental.
Gotta love the idea of your own bathroom, a fridge, stove, shower!!!
	
				........anxious_davet...........

DaveT,

Huh?

(which show are you talking about - I didn't catch that)

tim

anyone plan on mail ordering for the "gathering of the vibes"
show on june 21-22 ?  seems like there was quite a bit of
interest in grateful, thought maybe we could gather a crew of
decheads and head down together ... camp along the hudson,
party all weekend, check out some grate music with some grate
friends ... i doubt it'll sell out, but i might do the mail
order thing just in case ... 

one month away !  

    jayjolls and i discussed this last week...
    
    
    is mail really necessary?

re: -3

	I was discussing THE GREAT WENT.  

	Phish in Limestone, ME.  August 16th-17th.

					.................davet.

    ...talkin' 'bout Phish, anyone catch them signin' the National Anthem
    B-4 the Flyers/Rangers game??  I guess one of the Flyers is from Vermont,
    and good friends with the band....cool!
    
    this was sunday's game (may 18th), by-the-by.....
    
    jest_tryin'_to_B_helpful_macky  

>    ...talkin' 'bout Phish, anyone catch them signin' the National Anthem
>   B-4 the Flyers/Rangers game??      


	I missed that, damn.  I like that song, too! ;^)

	They did that at a Lakers game earlier in the season too, didn't they?

						........davet.

							
	

I'll be heading up to the Great Went with my friend
John Watt.  we're leaving the wimmen at home this go around :-)
so we'll no doubt forget all the practical stuff (like food,
stoves, tents, etc) and have plenty of the stuff we really
want (beer, etc) :-).

he MO'ed for us so i expect he'll be calling me anyday
saying we're golden !

it is an 8 hr drive from mass.
we're going 90% of the way up on Thurs, then fri AM
we'll finish the drive off and be one of the first in line
so we can get a primo camping spot similar to last year.
monday, we'll drive all the way home... that'll be hahd!

>so we'll no doubt forget all the practical stuff (like food,
>stoves, tents, etc) and have plenty of the stuff we really
>want (beer, etc) :-).

	Sounds just like most of the shows I've been to!!

>monday, we'll drive all the way home... that'll be hahd!

	That's where I'm hoping the RV will have impact.  While trying
to be sure it doesn't get too overcrowded, it will be nice to have a few
drivers at our disposal for swapping.  

	A few of us will most likely be heading up on thursday as well.
Personally, I have to work late that wednesday.  Although a few others are
going to be taking a day or two extra to head to maine to check out acadia and
maybe do some hiking.  I'm hoping to get in touch with them on thursday night,
then all cruising into the AFB together fryday.  Hope to get in touch with 
a few more friends than did last  year at Clifford Ball.

				anyway...........davet.

    
    	I gotta go out and get some tix for the great went.
    
    	How much is the whole deal?

My ticket says $70.  This year they're doing the whole deal in one bag.
One price covers both days and camping.  Unlike last year, it was explained
to me that once you're in the base, you're in.  No separate camping and 
concert grounds.  Unsure about that though.  Either way, I don't care, it's
gonna be a blast.
Listened to 8-17-96 last night, what a great show!!  I'm going to be way
over-excited by the time august rolls round.

					............davet.

Yup, $75 a ticket for the whole weekend.  sounds like a lot of money,
but look what you get for it:

2 shows consisting of 3 sets each
other acts
food
a big freakin' place to party down with all the other freaks
camping
no hassling by the man (at least at the 'Ball, there was ZERO hassle)

still a good price and i share DaveT's same enthusiasm: i'll be
pumped when August rolls around!

as i said with the clifford ball, it'll be the event of
the summer, at least for me.  

what is that hologram on the mail order ticket ?

usually they give you some kinda clue as to any "surprises" they
might have at the show (clifford ball had airplanes on the tix,
and at the show there were several types of aircraft during each
night) ... this year's holograms looks like the devil's head
with a cup of coffee inside ... when Dave descibed it the first
time, i figured it was a moose's head, since the show is in maine

anyways, it should turn out to be one of the best weekends of the
summer !  looking forward to a hassle-free grate weekend spent
with many grate friends !  

planning to take a few daze off before-hand and hike one of these:

>  mount katahdin
>  gulf haggis
>  acadia nat'l pahk

anyone up for that ?

what's "great went" stand for anyways ?  

	Damn, man, remember that show we saw in Maine back in '97?

		Gosh, what did they call that one?

			Who knows, but it sure was Grate we Went!!!!

    is it just me, or doe the begininning of .20 sound like 
    an infomercial???
    
    "but don't stop there!!!!  we'll throw in the special
    chopper attachment also!!! 
    
    	now what would you pay?!?!?"    :^) :^) :^)
    
    					da ve

mail order tickets for the grate went have a hologram that
looks like a devils head with a cup of coffee inside ...

Pollock, who designs artwork for Phish (the cover of Phish'
first album, Junta, for example) came up with a picture of
the devil sitting on a chair, drinking a cup of coffee, with
the words "Brewed Fresh Nightly" underneath ... it's called
"Pollock Hell's Coffee"

What does this have to do with the Grate Went ?  time'll tell

Hey arm,
	I got my schvice yesterday too!  Hell's Coffee?!
I thought all coffee tasted like hell.

	No offense to those of you who drink that crap, which is what,
		probably about 98% of you?
				
					....davet.

    try the andover coffee
    
    
    a nice cup of ass to start your day

    
    Dude...I can crank up a pot of tempest that'll not only floor
    ya, but it tastes lucious.

I'm in the minority (what's new):
no caffine for this guy required.

    WIDESPREAD PANIC pulled out of the H.O.R.D.E.  TOUR because of what the
    band called a disappointing and painful turn of events.  The band said
    it withdrew because tour organizers wouldn't honor agreements relating
    to lineup and appearance times.

    When BECK was added to the bill, Widespread Panic was moved down one
    slot and that was simply unacceptable to the band, according to sources
    familiar with the tour.  Widespread Panic is one of the charter
    H.O.R.D.E.  bands and its members were extremely upset that loyal fans
    will be affected by the "tour organizers apparent betrayal." The band
    said it is devoted to touring, and withdrawing from a tour would be
    unthinkable under anything but the most "drastic of conditions."

    Sources said it was necessary to build the lineup around headliner NEIL
    YOUNG and he felt Beck should be higher on the bill than Widespread
    Panic.  Young's agent Marsha Vlasic said the H.O.R.D.E.  Festival has
    always been about delivering the best live show experience possible.

    She said, "It has never been about who is opening, who is closing
    and/or the egos that would make this an issue." Vlasic said that last
    year, Young played prior to Blues Traveler and this year, he was more
    than happy to play prior to Widespread Panic in Atlanta per their
    request.

    H.O.R.D.E.  organizer David Frey told POLLSTAR, "I was deeply saddened
    that we couldn't work things out.  It's unfortunate [Widespread Panic]
    felt they had to leave the tour." Widespread Panic plans to make new
    tour plans for the summer and looks forward to performing in a
    "healthy, positive and honest tour environment."

    H.O.R.D.E.  has added Kula Shaker, Ben Folds Five, Soul Coughing,
    Squirrel Nut Zippers and Medeski Martin and Wood to the existing lineup
    of Young and Crazy Horse, Beck, Primus, Morphine, Big Head Todd and the
    Monsters and Leftover Salmon.

doesn't look like widespread panic will be around new england
anytime soon, according to their web page:

  http://www.netspace.org/Widespread/

< unofficial widespread panic tourdates >

 June 22    Tulsa, OK         riverparks              918.747.0001
 June 21    Kansas City,KS    memorial hall(pollstar) 800.771.3666
 June 24    Santa Fe, NM      Palo solieri            505.884.0999
 June 26/27 Morrison, CO      Red Rocks               303.989.5151
 June 28    Park city, UT     Wolf Mountain           800.888.tixx
 July 1     Omaha, NE       
 July 2     Peoria, IL      
 July 4,5   Milwaukee,WI      Summerfest              800.237.FEST
 July 7,8   Myrtle Beach, SC  House of dan akyroyd    803.272.3000
 July 9     Baltimore, MD     The Pier                410.481.SEAT
 July 11    Charlotte, NC     BLOCKBUSTER pavilion
 July 12    Raleigh, NC      
 July 13    Hampton, VA    
 July 15    Jacksonville, FL  Florida Theatre         904.353.330
 July 16    Pensacola,FL      Bayfront                800.488.5252
 July 18,19 Memphis,TN        Mud Island              901.525.1515
 July 20    Montgomery,AL      Montgomery civic center 800.277.1700
 July 22    Pompano, Fla       Pompano beach amphitheatre
 July 23    Tampa, Fla         Tampa performing arts center
 July 24    Nashville, TN 
 July 25    Atlanta, GA
 
.

    
    kudos to WP...  pretty ballsy if you ask me...
    
    tangentially, why in the world does Neil Young have to be on this bill
    anyway???  the man is a huge talent with a huge following and would
    have little to no trouble organizing a very succeful tour tour of his 
    own....  speaking only for myself, he actually TAKES AWAY from the
    appeal of something like HORDE...  i would much rather see a series
    of these "up and coming" sorts of acts that would have a much harder
    time making a big tour like this that would actually pay, than to see
    them as "also rans" when grouped in with the likes of Neil...  and if
    i were to go to something like this promarilky because Neil was on the
    bill, i would feel like i got less than my money's worth because what i
    would see of Neil would be a *much* shorter show...
    
    Neil should tour on his own...  let him get an opener if he wants to
    help someone out...
    
    and since you were probably waiting for it:  "feh" (tm. pat.pending
    :^)...
    
    
    					da ve  

    I respectfully disagree.  They sound like prima donnas to me.
    The point should be the music, no?  It's certainly going to
    do nothing to encourage me to buy their records or even take
    the trouble to see them.  I bought a ticket in part because
    they were going to be there;  as far as I am concerned, they
    let me down.

    I'm siding with Neil on this one.  He doesn't have to do the
    gig.  Also, I think "also ran" is a matter of perspective.
    If you were going to this primarily because Neil was on the
    bill, I'd think you were missing the point as fully as WP is.

    Tom

I disagree with you da ve too.  WSP sounds like they are full of themselves.  
Why not just play the music, after all that's what HORDE's all about.  
I would have liked to see WSP on the bill especially since they were on the
bill when I purchased my ticket BUT I think there's enough excellent music
(will Blues Traveler be there?) on the bill already.  I am psyched to see
Big Head Todd is back!

Also,  Allman Brothers Band were headliners for the 1st ?3? years of 
HORDE tours so it's not like having a headline grabbing name is anything
new to that tour.  I am psyched to see Neil again ... 

Egos schmegos :)

    oh goody...  life in GRATEFUL...  :^)
    
    
    i think Neil being on the bill pretty well shows that it's not about
    the music for the promoters...  it's about the cash that Neil will
    generate...
    
    as for widespread panic being full of themselves, why???  because 
    they were willing to abide by a previous agreement and the promoter was
    not???  looks to me like they got the shaft, pushed into a less
    favorable slot against a previsouly existing agreement, to accomodate 
    Neil Young...  and now that they have found the earlier agreement in
    the toilet, it's *thier* fault and they're "full of themselves" for
    having the nerve to tell a promoter to live up to thier word or they
    will walk???  
    
    i think it's ballsy becasue they probably just pissed off a lot of
    money people in a business where money people make the rules and the
    music doesn't become a question until you get 3 or 4 items down the
    list...  by deciding to go out on their own i think they are saying
    unequivocably that the music is what matters...  they take a huge risk
    by alientating a promoter and deciding to take it on the road on thier
    own without the supprot of a larger organization like HORDE... 
    organizing a tour is a costly, risky business...  add to that the fact 
    that they will most likely end up in smaller Orpheum like venues
    instead of big Great Woods type venues...  yep, big fuzzy ones if you
    ask me...
    
    as for the Allman's headlining the tour at first...  i never really
    quite understood that either... they an obviously make it on thier own
    as well...  but then for some reason we didn't have these kinds of issues 
    then either did we?  i wonder why...
    
    here's another scenario, more local...  a hard working area band gets
    a gig at a high profile nightclub as a headliner...  big opportunity
    for them to make some noise on the local scene...  they get all psyched
    and start telling thier fans about it... then a call comes from the
    club owner... "oh, you can still play, but now you're opening up for
    (insert larger regional act anme here)"...  the first band gets pissed
    and feels they got the shaft and say so...  club owner says tough, my
    club, i changed my mind...  first band walks and all parties spend the
    rest of the day flipping the bird at one another...  now my question
    is, which party was the airhole and who was "full of themselves"??
    
    					da ve
    

    King Crimson was on very early last year, not too shabby.

    rightfully so...  only old folks like us would know them as ever
    having been a draw at all...  :^)  and they probably agreed to be in
    that spot...
    
    
    i mean, if the *music* is what matters, how do you explain
    Hootie and the Blowfish????   :^)  :^)  :^)
    
    					da ve

>    i think Neil being on the bill pretty well shows that it's not about
>    the music for the promoters...  it's about the cash that Neil will
>    generate...

    I have a different view.  I think it's a nod to roots.  And
    I would have a hard time identifying a more worthy representative.
    If Neil is about anything, he's about the music.  He's proved
    that many times over to my satisfaction.

    "less favorable slot" is not obvious to me at all, in a festival
    like this.  

    
    the roots of grunge i suppose...  other than that i can't see how Neil
    is the root of anything...  more of an explorer of everything (see also
    Trans, the Flashing Pinks etc.)...
    
    and i'm not blaming Neil for this either...  my beef is more with the
    promoter...  my not knowing why Neil has to be there in the first place
    is a different issue...
    
    and the less desirable slot in a festival show like this does mean a
    lot...  ask any of the bands that were on the FURTHUR tour last year
    after thay played to a mostly empty Great Woods...  i bet they would
    have liked to play to a full house too but the fact is that for the
    first half of the show, a big part of the crowd was drinking in the
    parking lot...  not much chance to make an impression on potential 
    new fans for an "up and coming" act...  it even matters at an event
    like Slip into Summer...  it matter in the crowd you play to and the
    cash you get for filling the slot...
    
    					da ve

    Probably the promoter should not agree to conditions they are
    unwilling to abide by.  But I'm still pissed at WSP.  

    Neil not a roots guy?  Need another topic! ;-)

    Tom

    an overriding principle is "stay in business."  
    If you can't pay the bills, everybody  suffers...
    
    another overriding priciple is "get it in writing."
    Not necessarily so that you can 'enforce' it, but more
    so that the agreement is understood by everybody.
    it's very easy to interpret oral agreements any number
    of ways, according to differing expectations.
    
    /bruce

    
    re /bruce...  
    
    agreed on both counts...
    
    i don't know if the first agreement was in writing or not...  doesn't
    sound like it, but we need more facts...  oral contracts are fully binding 
    under the law, and there's lots of precedent to back it up, but it is 
    much harder to prove...
    
    i would add to the list of overriding priciples "deal honorably" which
    would include "live up to your commitments", but that's just me... 
    might help explain why i'm not rich and famous too...  :^)  even more
    so than limits on talent and ability...  :^) :^)
    
    Tom, i wait in breathless anticipation of your explanation of how Neil
    Young is the root of anything other than the Seattle sound (and we
    could even argue that he has a couple of generations of teenagers
    previous garage work to build on :^)...  Neil is an old folkie turned
    rocker and both musical forms predate you an i and probably most people
    in this conference... :^)    there's very little new under the sun...
    
    i can understand you being disappointed at Widespread Panic for backing
    out...  they put on a great set at the New Orleans Jazz Fest and would
    have been an awesome addition to this tour...  but if you're looking to
    be angry at someone, you might consider the guy with all the $$$ whose
    driving the whole thing as opposed to the people who are leaving cuz
    they felt they were getting screwed without the benefit of a kiss.....
    
    					da ve
    
    

�    i would add to the list of overriding priciples "deal honorably" which
�    would include "live up to your commitments", but that's just me... 
    
    totally agree.  the problem is that, unless it's in writing,
    it's not always easy to agree on what the commitments are.
    while verbal agreements are indeed legally binding, parties to them
    very often assume lots of stuff that winds up being mutually 
    exclusive.   
    
    sure, there are lots of sleazy  folks around, but even honest 
    folk can get into trouble with oral agreements.
    
    /bruce

    
    who the hell is widespread panic????
    
    f^ck em!

the rumours that widespread were considering bowing out of the
horde tour started months ago ... they requested a "favorable"
slot, with a "reasonable" time limit (almost two hours ?) and
horde mgt said they'd do the best they could (so the rumours go)

i heard the rumours, and decided to wait on picking up tickets
to horde ... doubt i'll go, now that widespread is out, even
though there are plenty of decent bands still on the list 

then beck got added and widespread got "bumped" down a spot ...
beck is okay, but i'd much rather see widespread play a "full"
set than beck ... guess it goes by album sales, as opposed to
talent ... unfortunately !

widespread puts on a great live show, from what i hear !

one other problem with these festivals - the crowd can be dancin
away all day, and by the time the headliner hits the stage, the
crowd is runnin outta steam !  specially in the heat of the sun !

 

    Two hours ain't reasonable at a festival show.

>    Tom, i wait in breathless anticipation

    I dunno why, da ve, but I like the idea that I have you breathless ;-)

    
    re -.1
    
    			:^)  :^)  :^)
    
    	probably cuz i rant less that way....
    
    					da ve

    
    What do they sing?

Da ve,  

Is this about HORDE or Neil?  It's getting blurry :)

Neil's inspired a whole generation of electric guitar players. 
I think that's rootsy enough (and no I won't confine it to grunge/seattle).
Go listen to Weld/Arc Weld or The Bridge Benefit album for some choice
cuts.  Granted he's very experimental yet Crazy Horse has always been
the stable side.  

BAck to WSP - Ok,  I'll agree it takes balls but I'll also go one more
step say it takes a lack of brains too.  If all we are hearing is the
truth and not what WSP/promoter spin doctors put on it then it sounds as
if they had a deal and the promotor reneged.  Ok,  not nice.  

But on the other hand they had a chance to play huge (larger than 2k-3k
Orpheum) crowds - why not do it.  They've been knocking around Orpheums
for years.  

Still sounds to me like swallowed pride/busted egos.  

>    as for the Allman's headlining the tour at first...  i never really
>    quite understood that either... they an obviously make it on thier own
>    as well...  but then for some reason we didn't have these kinds of issues 
>    then either did we?  i wonder why...

I don't have any issues with Neil/Allman's or any one else headlining - 
I just added that in to keep it in perspective - they've always had a big
headliner.  

>    here's another scenario, more local...  a hard working area band gets

That sucks.  Plain and simple.  And I'm sure it happens all the time.  
What's the club owner to do if someone calls and says,  XYZ can play
Saturday night....

sorry this is all mumbo sort of random notes....
    
So to sum it up - I agree that it was ballsy, I'll add that their thinking 
was ego/pride driven, and Neil's a guitar god :)

hah!  
bob

ps.  when I said 'brainless' earlier that might've been a tad harsh :)
pps.  I've been a big fan of WSP seeing them on previous Horde tours and
in clubs in Boston. 
ppps.  I know nothing really about the music business side of things.

    
    songs dude...  :^)
    
    seriously, i'd be hard pressed to give you an actual song name of
    something you might have heard on the radio...  they've been around for 
    some time now but have yet to come out with that big smash hit that
    makes them a household word...  kinda like where Phish was a few years
    ago... (no, i'm not comparing the two acts)...
    
    a better place to learn about 'em would be thier web page...
    www.widespreadpanic.com
    
    
    					da ve

		Widespread......yea!!


			
		
			Beck..............feh!
					

	A WSP tune you might have heard on radio during the last year:

			Ain't Life Grand

    re Bobo...
    
    both... pay attention dammit...  :^)
    
    issue one...  who is the schmuck?  widespread panic for backing out
    when they thought they were being screwed-or the promoter who may
    or may not have been screwing them (insufficient data)...  my reaction 
    is to defend the artists when people start slaggin' them for backing
    out...
    
    issue two...  why do Neil Young, and other artists of his magnitude,
    need to be on a tour like this at all????  apparently the promoters
    feel they can't make enough money without them...  adding (for me)
    credence to the "it's about money, not music" side...  imho, a HORDE
    type of tour would serve the fans, the artists, and the business
    by focusing more on the rising stars than the established mega
    stars...   the fans get exposed to more new music (which in turn
    feeds the industry)...  the artists get more exposure to potential new
    fans (which in turn feeds the industry)...  a Neil fan would be better
    served by spending his money on a full night of Neil (which would
    normally be the case...  him, maybe an opener)...  
    
    sure, Neil has inspired a whole generation of guitarists...  actually,
    probably 2 and almost 3 now...  that does NOT make him a "roots" person
    though, imho...  when you're talking roots, you're talking people who
    started something...  is Eric Clapton a "roots" player?  or Muddy
    Waters??  or Missisippi John Hurt?  of the three, i think most folks
    would put Eric at the end of the line, virtuosity aside...
    
    sure Neil and Eric are guitar gods...
    
    and just to add gasoline to the fire, after over 20 years, they BOTH
    
    			BORE ME TO TEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    				:^) :^) :^)
    
    				there, have fun with that one...  :^)
    
    
    						da ve

    oh, and as a PS...
    
    i am not trying to say that any of this stuff with Widespread Panic is
    "Neil's fault"...  nor am i trying to imply less talent, or impugn his
    reputation as a fine human being...
    
                             da ve_the_opinionated_discussion_monger

    feh ;-)

	since I know nothing about HORDE and can't add a comment, but
	want to talk anyways:

	some people are saying that having the Black Crowes on the Furthur
	bill is being done "for the money, not the music"

    
    can you be more specific???  :^)  

 
	you talkin' to me, da ve?

    oops!  snuck in there on me... :^)  
    
    no, i was talking to the guy who "feh"'d me...  :^)
    
    but, since you mention it, i can see why people could say that about
    the Crowes...  however, while they've never really been associated with
    the Dead, other than covering a song that the Dead covered too and
    having a bit of a hit with it, they HAVE supported some of the causes
    near and dear to deadheads...  i guess i can see that one going either
    way...
    
    					da ve

	me too.

Participating bands (confirmed on the HORDE hotline):

Neil Young & Crazy Horse     (Headlining entire tour)
Beck                         (August 1st-14th)
Big Head Todd                (July 14th-24th)
Blues Traveler               (Dates not confirmed)
Morphine                     (July 12th-August 6th)
Soul Coughing                (August 6th-August 31st)
Medeski, Martin and Wood
Ben Folds Five
Primus
Leftover Salmon               (Entire tour)
Toad the Wet Sprocket
Kula Shaker
Cake Like
Squirrel Nut Zippers
New Brown Hat


1997  HORDE  Hotline (212-582-0228)
Tentatively confirmed:

7/11   Shoreline Amphitheater, Mountain View, CA
7/12   The Gorge, George, WA (beginning of tour)
7/13   Portland Meadows, Portland, OR
7/15   Wolf Mountain Amphitheater, Park City, UT
7/17   Irvine Meadows, Los Angeles, CA
7/18   Desert Sky Pavilion, Phoenix, AZ
7/20   Fiddler's Green, Englewood, CO
7/22   TBA, Oklahoma City, OK
7/23   Sandstone Amphitheater, Kansas City, MO
7/24   Riverport Amphitheater, Maryland Heights, MO
7/25   Deer Creek Amphitheater, Nobleville, IN
7/27   Pine Knob Amphitheater, Clarkston, MI
7/28   Pine Knob Amphitheater, Clarkston, MI
7/29   Riverbend Music Center, Cincinnati, OH
7/30   Polaris Amphitheater, Columbus, OH
8/02   World Music Theater, Tinley Park, IL
8/03   Alpine Valley, East Troy, WI
8/08   Great Woods Amphitheater, Mansfield, MA
8/09   Great Woods Amphitheater, Mansfield, MA
8/10   Saratoga Performing Arts Center, Saratoga Springs, NY
8/11   Franklin County Airport, Highgate, VT
8/12   Sony Music Center, Camden, NJ
8/13   Meadows Music Center, Hartford, CT
8/30   Coral Sky Amphitheater, Palm Beach, FL
8/31   Coral Sky Amphitheater, Palm Beach, FL
 
.

    the black crowes smoke rope
    
    
    that is the only reason they are on the furthur bill

    ...I'm GRATEful the Squirrel Nut Zippers are on the list...
    
    smokin' band!
    
    macky

    i wouldn't mind seeing Toad myself...
    
    					da ve

    One advantage of having Neil or the Allmans or  the Crowes on
    this kind of  tour  is that these headliners may attract more
    folks who  wouldn't otherwise dream of checking out any of  the
    no-names.  It greatly increases the newbies exposure, and gives
    them  an opprotunity to learn from guys who have been around and
    have been successful for awhile.  And the old guys get exposure
    to a new generation...   Seems to me like a win-win-win
    (audience-band-promoter).  Doesn't get any better than that.
    
    As for the money/music issue, musicians and promoters gotta pay
    bills too.  If they don't make money this year, they ain't gonna
    be back next year. 
    
    I really don't understand the gripe, da ve. 
    
    /bruce

    
    probably because it wasn't really a "gripe" per se...  :^)
    
    if we go all the way back to what started this, i was applauding
    Widespread Panic for having the balls to make thier call 
    and then as a tangential discussion, brought up the issue of why
    a "superstar" would have to be on the bill in the first place...
    i acknowledge that the "sar" is there as a draw...  people in the door,
    plain and simple...  my personal feeling is that it's kind of a bummer
    for fans of the big star,cuz they'll pay full concert ticket price
    to see a very short feature...  better for the fan to see a whole
    night of their fav for the same price...  i see the win-win-win
    and all, i guess i'm jsut kind of lamenting the state of the business
    for new bands and how the establishment/infrastructure makes it hard
    for a group to make it on thier own merits...
    
    					da ve

re:               <<< Note 572.44 by SUBSYS::TURCOTTE "fun stuff" >>>

> beck is okay, but i'd much rather see widespread play a "full"
> set than beck ... guess it goes by album sales, as opposed to
> talent ... unfortunately !

Wow, IMO Beck is one talented dude!  I know nothing of Widespread Panic,
but I do know Beck. 


/Ken

    
    Dept of what goes around comes around department:
    
    I remember seeing a show in which John Stewart (of the Kingston Trio)
    and Lindsey Buckingham appeared...   John mentioned how he had been
    copping a few licks from Lindsey, to which Lindsey replied that he
    had picked up a lot of licks from listening to KT (with JS).
    
    /bruce

hey da ve,

We agree that Clapton is boring :)  I happen to be a Neil fan though so
no agreement there.  He's one of those like em or hate em (a la Dylan
or even the Dead).  
    
>    issue one...  who is the schmuck?  widespread panic for backing out
>    when they thought they were being screwed-or the promoter who may

I succumbed yesterday to your indisputable logic. :)  If (with the data
we have) they got porked by the promoter then they have big ones as
you so eloquently put it (and maybe thinking with bruised egos ain't
the best solution for them as I added).

>    issue two...  why do Neil Young, and other artists of his magnitude,
>    need to be on a tour like this at all????  apparently the promoters
>    feel they can't make enough money without them...  adding (for me)
>    credence to the "it's about money, not music" side...  imho, a HORDE

On this you'll won't/didn't find me arguing.  This tour has always had either
a big headline (allman's, now neil both can/do sell out the sheds for multi
nights w/ no problems) or a pair of decent acts that swapped each night as 
headlines (crowes and blues traveler).

I do believe it's all about $$ but I (unlike you) have no problem of
going to see all the up and coming bands and then having the ole
kicker to end it all (the one with the bullet! :)  We might also ask
why Neil would take less money when he could be touring and guaranteed
to sell out and make more as a solo act (I am ignorant of the business 
side of music so forgive me if I made a leap there).  

>    sure, Neil has inspired a whole generation of guitarists...  actually,
>    probably 2 and almost 3 now...  that does NOT make him a "roots" person

Nah, not roots in the Robert Johnson definition.  But he's roots to alot of
new people who haven't had a chance to look beyond...They were weened on
Neil and not Waters/Johnson/on and on and on...

But anyway, Debess mentioned why the Crowes on Further?  A kicker plain and 
simple.  I saw last year's Further - it lacked something.  Los Lobos should 
have closed the show :)  Crowes are a good band and getting better.  They 
like to jam and improvise ....  But as far as bucks go and that being the 
reason for the Crowes on Further, I don't buy that.  The Crowes typically 
play Orpheum sized places maybe for a couple nights ... (at least the last 
few trips through Boston have been at places that held 3K or so people).  

seeya!
fun and interesting topic.
bob

    Ken
    
    looks like you and i are the only ones who will give beck a listen

i wasn't knocking beck, i have one of his cd's - fine cd !

just that widespread panic's music gets my feet movin !  

i hear widespread puts on a grate live show, i would've been
waiting in line for horde tix if they were headlining ...
their new cd sounds a bit more "radio friendly" than their
others, so you might see them getting more airplay (good?)
check out "space wrangler", "ain't life grand" or the new
one "bombs & butterflies" ... cool cd's !

i hear "powers that be" were trying to convince widespread
to make a video ... then they'd be right in there with the
dmb / blues traveler "clique" (as leblanc puts it) ... next
thing you know you have 15,000 13-year-olds being driven to
the concert by mom & dad ... good for the band's exposure,
not so good for us fans who've been listening for years
and get tired of thousands of teeny-boppers stopping by to
pester us for an "extra beer, dood" ... gets old quick !

anyways, as rumours go, widespread considered the video thing,
and supposedly even started work on it, before they scrapped
the idea ... fine with me, i can't watch tv ... much rather
slip in a cd and dance around   :~)


one more thing - it's nice to see some life here in grateful !

we been too busy working, or just lacking a decent topic ?
.

	One thing I like about Beck is that he combines a lot of "classic" 
	sounds into his [for lack of a better phrase] contemporary style. 
	You can get Dylan samples, sitar, Mississippi blues, cheesy 60's organ
	sound, and killer thumping bass, all in the same tune ;-)  

	One thing I hate about the Black Crowes is they lack something
	called Originality.

	/Ken

I didn't realize there were so many bands on the list.
I'd love to see Toad the Wet Sprocket, and I've been
getting a big chuckle out of Squirrel Nut Zippers' 
video, "Hell"....they'd probably be fun too...

    ...Tim, me boy....pick up the CD...it's fairly incredible, considering
    that these kids are ~ 26 years old, and are writing music that is
    remininscent of the late 1930's/early 1940's.....
    
    "Ma, where's my Zoot-Suit???"
    
    macky

	yesterday I heard Squirrel Nut Zipper for the very first time.
	I was riding home and my tape player ate a tape (don't worry JC
	it wasn't one you made for me - and oh yeah - thank you very much!)
	My car was jammed up in a holding pattern, so I jumped outta my car
	and pulled up the antenna so I could listen to -something- on the
	ride home (no more tapes until I got home and cleaned the player).

	heard some great stuff - Squirrel Nut Zipper's _Hell_ being one.
	Also heard DMB's _Crash_ for the first time.  and also Fiona
	somethingorother doing this voice jam at the end of a song called 
	something like _Sleep to Dream_.  Ended up station-surfing after
	that...

RE:  Toad the Wet Sprocket

They are or just did play a showe where I think all you had to do was
buy their disk to get in free.  To me they are ok;  I don't avoid them
or go out of my way to hear them....I have no idea how they sound other
than their radio 'hits'. 

re:  MAC

I've heard 2 Sq. Nut Zipper songs on the radio ... cuban latin jazzy
dancy tunes.  Are they all like that? 

bob
ps.  I have an album by a Brit blues/metal band called "Toad the Wet
Sprocket" from around  1977 ir 78.  Izzat from Monty Python??

    DMB's Crash is one of my fav's these days...  
    
    haven't heard the squirells yet...
    
    Fiona Apple...  not impressed so far...
    
    					da ve

    ...Yep. most of the CD is similar to that...GRATE stuff (IMHO)....
    
    macky

    part of why there ar so many bands on the list is that they are not all 
    doing the whole tour...
    
    i like Toad a lot...  apparenlty they have frequyently done shows like
    you mention Bob...  you can sign up for their mailing list too and they
    have sent out disks and stuff to thier mailing list folks for free on
    occasion...  outakes and other unreleased stuff...  not a jammin' kind
    of band really, but good solid tunes...
    
    					da ve

I have one live Toad the Wet Sprocket show on tape, if you're into them:

Toad the Wet Sprocket   9-16-92   Boulder, CO  110-minutes  AUD  A
Is It For Me, Jam, All I Want, Before You Were Born, Butterflies,
Nightengale Song, Way Away, Brother, Fall Down, Torn, Corporal Brown,
In My Ear, Hold Her Down, Come Back Down, Spirit / Know Me, Walk on Ocean
Nothing is Alone, Cinnamon Girl, I Will Not Take These Things for Granted

Nice sound quality, song selection decent too ... I also picked up a CD
single, with some live tracks on it, though I lent it to a friend a year
ago (might see that again) ... worth picking up for the live "feel" of Toad
 
.

    willing to make dubs?  hmmm???  :^)
    
    i'd ask you to borrow it and dub it myself but i don't have
    a machine for dupes anymore...
    
    					da ve

i'll spin a copy, let me check whether it'll fit on a 100-minute tape,
otherwise i'll have to go shopping for 110-minute tapes

then i'll need a place to send a copy ... i have two tape decks, so
spinning a copy is not a problem ... i can send a copy dec internal
mail and save post office charges ... send me personal email to
subsys::turcotte   or    [email protected]   if you want a copy

arm
 
.

    unless i miss my guess (it could happen) subsys is in hlo, yes?
    in which case, you won't have to "send" it anywhere...  i could walk
    over and get it...  :^)
    
    					da ve

  Actually, my vote for likely Concert of the Summer is the Telluride
  bluegrass festival...  I saw the lineup listed in Billboard and was
  knocked out.  About 6 what-you-would-call "core" bluegrass acts, plus
  about a dozen more folk-pop eccentrics on various other electro/acoustic
  trips.  Almost everyone listed, I would pay to see individually, including
  Lyle Lovett, John Prine, Guy Clark, ...  Heck, maybe Neil Young (I forget).

  Wish I hadn't blown most of my travel $$ taking various kids to NYC, fun
  as that was.  Oh well.   - JayC.

    
    with a little luck i'll be heading out to Crested Butte for the
    festival there...  plans are still very much up in the air, but
    some friends are booked to play and i might travel out with them...
    sort of a combination roadie/babysitter...  :^)
    
    					da ve

         <<< Note 572.85 by ALFA1::DWEST "i believe in chemo girl!" >>>

>    with a little luck i'll be heading out to Crested Butte for the
>    festival there...  plans are still very much up in the air, but
>    some friends are booked to play and i might travel out with them...
> roadie babysitter

Now that sounds like fun!

    when is the Crusted Butt Fest, da ve?? price??  TO-HEll_U-ride is way
    too expensive for me..
    
    rfb

    i'm not 100% sure on dates/prices etc...  well, let me rephrase that...
    i have NO IDEA about price, but i THINK the fest is the first weekend
    in August...  is that far from you dude??  if i make it out there it
    would be way cool to see you and yours...  :^)  i can let you know more
    as the date approaches and plans firm up...  as i said before, my
    attendance is dependent on a bit of luck...  
    
    					da ve

    any place in Colo is close by....some a little closer, some a little
    furthur.........keep me informed..usually we avoid the
    Mt/Ski-resort-type fests, some of the people there are not what I'd
    call "like-minded", and they're EXPENSIVE! You guys could always make a
    pit stop on yer way in or out of the state at either Tumbledown or Colo
    Spgs.
    
    rfb

    it's likely that if i go i'll be flying...  what's the closest airport?
    well, the closest that's serviced by "real" planes... :^)  Denver?
    and then drive time to Crested Butte?  i am woefully uninformed as to
    where these places are in relation to each other...
    
    				da ve

    mornin da ve -- I guess DIA (Denver) is the closest to Crested Butte,
    but the Spgs isn't much furthur out of the way...ya'll could feasibaly
    fly into the Spgs. Course ifn ya flu into DIA and rented a car, we
    could meet up virtually anywhere between "here and there". Crested
    Butte isa good 8 hours from here. 
    
    rfb

    My map shows airports in Vail and Gunnison, which appear close to
    Crested Butte.  Jetting into Vail for the festival would be just your
    style, da ve.  :-)
    
    Jamie

    I think you'd need a small plane at both...but never having flown
    there, except by car, I wouldn't really know.
    rfb

    
    Flying into Gunison costs a fortune.  I tried to do that a couple years
    ago.  It's a very pleasant drive from Denver....long, but pleasant.
    

First Weekend in August?

Hey, I've got some Frequent Flyer miles...could make it
to DIA, at least...

Hmmm...

RFB, when i went out to CB 2 years ago, it was only about 4 or 5
hrs drive, and a very nice drive at that.  ok, so i might have 
been a little over the speed limit...

the town of CB is very cool.
not nearly as pretentious as Vail, Breck, etc.
but, times changes, and hopefully CB has not changed that
much.  when we were there, it felt much more familyish than
any other resort i'd been to. lots of young folks being ski bums
and partying like crazy...

loved the place.
after 1 week there and skiing in 4 FEET of fresh powdah,  
all i had on my mind was 3 mos leave of absence in CB !!!

BTW, we landed in DIA, rented a cah, drove to the springs
(about 50 mins from DIA).  from the springs to CB, it was about
4 hrs as i recall.

highly recommend getting something with a 6 cyl engine or greater.
you go over a number of passes and a 4 cyl would be sllloooooow !

    The Loon Mountain homepage lists some real decent shows!
    Here's what they're offering:
    
    
    7/12: Pirates Ball: JGB, Missing Man Formation, Jefferson Starship, the
          Band Tix on sale 6/6.
    
    7/13: Crosby, Stills, and Nash. Tix on sale 6/6.
    
    7/26: Giant Gig '97, an alternative festival with Silverchair and
          others TBD. Tix on sale 6/6.
    
    8/23: Ziggy Marley and Big Head Todd. Tix on sale 6/6.
    
    8/24: Inside Out Festival, with Jars of Clay and others TBD. Tix on
          sale 6/6.
    
    The homepage didn't list any ticket info or prices. The phone number
    is 603-745-8111. 
    
    The homepage is at www.loonmtn.com/summer/1997/events.html
    
    
    Mike

    ..heard on the local news at lunch that Neil Young cut the tip of 
    his index finger off,while cutting a ham sandwich.. they said he has
    to cancel his Europe tour..they didn't mention the horde though..
                                                      Ross

    in spite of my earlier ramblings, i would like to take this
    opportunity to claim unequivocably that 
    
    	I HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH NEIL'S INJURY!  
    
    yes, while in New Orleans i did visit some voodoo stores and picked 
    up a doll or three, some incense, and various and sundry other charmed
    items, but i have not cast any spells and my office is a hex-free zone!
    :^)  :^)  :^)
    
    get well Neil......
    
    					da ve 

Garcia envy?

re: 572.99:

> whos gonna headline horde?

  i hear widespread panic might be available this summer   ;~)

    Weird, my friend Briuce just cut off his middle finger yesterday.  i
    got a call from his wife awhile ago.  Bruce is a guitar maker  and
    works for Fender/Guild.  What a bummer!I talked with Bruce and he seems
    Ok but still in shock,  He could use some vibes.  Bruce is a Rasta from
    jamaica and does not know much about the dead other than what I play
    for him.  I let him know of one guy who lost his middle finger and
    still could perform magic.  
    
    Hope all goes well.
    
    	

    re .102 by Armand...
    
    all i can say is:
    
    
    	BWAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    			i'm DYING over here...  :^) :^) :^)
    
    					da ve

   re.102 ...i think i heard WSPX collective dohhhh!!!!...from Athens Ga,
    all the way up here... Ross

         <<< Note 572.100 by ALFA1::DWEST "i believe in chemo girl!" >>>

   
>    	I HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH NEIL'S INJURY!  


That's the first thing I thought of.  What would da ve think?
:) :) :)

I heard it was his left hand and it was reattached.

bob

GARCIA ENVY


hahhha!!!  hahaha!!!  Excellent!

Widespread Panic to Headline...

haha!!!1

excellent humor in this file!
:)

  Well, I don't know T'hell-u-ride from a hole in the ground, but here's the
  lineup I mentioned...
  
  Telluride Bluegrass Festival, June 19-22
  Bela Fleck & the Flecktones, Del McCoury Band, Tim O'Brien & Jerry Douglas
  Band, Psychograss, Tony Furtado, Leftover Salmon, Peter Rowan, and...
  Johnny Cash, John Prine, Lyle Lovett, Guy Clark, Gillian Welch, Taj Mahal,
  Davis Crosby.
  
  Also, Rocky Mountain Bluegrass Festival, Lyons CO, Aug.1-3
  Ralph Stanley & the Clinch Mountain Boys, Richard Greene & the Grass is
  Greener, Hot Rize, David Grisman Quintet, Bluegrass Patriots, Black Rose,
  & others.    - JayC.