Conference rdvax::grateful

Yes RFB,  There's been a lot of press lately sayingthings like,
"don't take T if you drink alot" ...  

the link between it and liver damage has benen getting a lot of
press lately.

I hope your friend is ok, 
bob

  There recently were news stories discussing what might be the same thing,
  or related.

  Stemming from Advil [ibuprofin]'s ad blitz to alert T [acetomenaphine?]
  customers of the danger.  How public spirited of them...

  According an account I saw in either the Boston Globe or USA Today, it is
  well-documented that anyone consuming 3 or more alcoholic bevs. should
  give T [acet.] a miss, or risk liver damage.  T in fact is adding a
  warning to their label -- sorry I can't quote the exact words.

  For balance, the story noted the risk of stomach bleeding from excessive
  usage of aspirin and ibuprofin.  It was left as an exercise to the reader
  to gauge the more clear-and-present danger.

  I don't know if the tragic case you cite was associated with an evening of
  moderate drinking, but either way people should be alerted...  - JayC.

    RE: in the press recently
    
    having been on vacation and in la-la land for over a week, I had not
    heard of the warnings.
    
    
    re: case i know of related to an evening of drinking..
    
    she doesn't drink! She routinely took T as a pain reliever and M for
    menstral cramps, though. Her Dr told my friend that a person can only
    take 800 T's in their life...if you start at age 20 taking T, and at
    age 60 you take yer 800th...possibility of good bye liver...
    after talking to my friend for an hour, I'm convienced he knows alot
    about livers, pain relivers, etc. now!!
    
    rfb

    
    
    OK, I just got off some painkillers (actually, anti-inflammatories),
    for tendonitis, it was a prescription.  It was 800 mg Motrin, is this
    what you're talking about?  I avoided alcohol because I heard about
    liver problems if you take ibuprofin and alcohol.....
    
    Hogan

    
    I've been playing with darvocet lately.  I wonder if this counts?

	Guntis was holding his head, walking around the house we were
	staying at this weekend, looking for some aspirin ;-)...someone
	offered him Tylenol and he started talking about the liver/alcohol/
	aceteminophine connection - first I had ever heard of it.

	Debess

    re: .4
    no
    
    ibu and alcohol is not the prob, as I understand it, it's T and
    alcohol. 
    
    and even beyond that...*WITHOUT* alcohol, T can be dangerous! 
    
    rfb

    I remember having a discussion with old Grateful noter Jody Fortier
    (I think that's his last name) a few years ago when we both had infants
    running around the house.  He said the deadliest thing in the medicine
    cabinet for kids is acetominophen (example brand name Tylenol), due
    to what it can do to the liver!  

    As an aside, I've been taking Seldane daily for 10 years now for allergies,
    and I wonder if they'll "discover" problems with something like this too...

    /Ken

    scary that this has been known for so long!!!

    Hmmm, I wonder if it is only in conjunction with alcohol, though 
    rfb's friend seems to suggest otherwise?  Which is a bit 
    strange.  Pediatricians get upset these days when you mention
    you gave your kid some chewable aspirin, due to Reyes Syndrome.
    But the onlything they really mention as an alternative is
    acetemiphon (sp?), though when Hannah was really bad off over
    the winter, I think they were giving her ibuprofen too.  
    
    Sigh...  everything is bad for you...
    
    PeterT

    As a former member of the  "T" company (I was there when 9 people died
    when the product was tampered). You are in the middle of a big
    ad war between I and T, asprin should not be given to young
    children when they fevers, it can cause Rye's Syndrom, which can be
    fatal. T and booze do not mix, too much I can cause liver problems.
    The marketteers are going crazy because T has to put a warning
    label due to Booze problem, and I smells the blood.
    
    T has been around since 1959, It has never worked for me, except
    on Dental pain. I use I for those mid 40 aches and pains.
    
    
    

    
    hmmmmm.....typically I never take aspirin of any kind (I call 'em all
    aspirin).  I've always felt they were unnecessary, I'd just live
    through the aches and pains.....I feel like I'll continue that practice
    now.....
    
    Americans take too many pills anyway.....
    
    Hogan

    Acetominophen (aka paracetamol outside the US) is fairly tough on the
    liver, but the theraputic window (ratio of the toxic dose to the
    minimum effective dose) is pretty large. However, if you introduce
    anything that traumatises the liver (e.g. alcohol), the window begins
    to close.
    
    The ads, which are sponsored by one or manufacturers of ibuprofen and
    friends, say something to the effect "if you regularly drink 3
    alcoholic drinks per day..."  
    
    If you care, go to a library and read the relevant entries in the U.S.
    Pharmacopiea, both the regular section and the 'advice for patients'
    section. Granted I'm a pharmacology wonk, but I won't take anything
    without reading up on it first (with fairly frequent migraine attacks,
    I take a lot). Do not rely on the PDR for this kind of info. It is
    little more than a catalog.
    
    Some of the safest pain killers are the opiates, particularly codeine.
    I speculate that this is because they mimic neurochemicals that are
    already present and which the liver can deal with easily. However
    there is the risk that someone may actually feel a little better, so
    the US Gummint is there to protect us. The constitution only provides
    for the pursuit of happiness, not attainment :-)
    
    gary

re .8
>   As an aside, I've been taking Seldane daily for 10 years now for allergies,
>   and I wonder if they'll "discover" problems with something like this too...

I have a prescription for this too (do I need to call it S in this note?),
though it is only for spot usage (visiting friends with a dog or cat,
or a rough hay fever day).  I recently had to take an antibiotic to
get over a nasty chest infection, and in the little flyer the pharmacy
provided it mentioned that it should NOT be taken with Seldane.  It's
always good to check the fine print...

Dan

    since i started this,, never, I SAY NEVER!! mix A with A or M,
    espicially if you are already taking L! Unless of course you've read the
    fine print on the S label!
    
    rLfSbD

  I'm waiting for the day it's discovered that, while acet. and ibup.
  individually can cripple your liver, taken together are wonderfully safe.

  Yes, nothing beats a headache like a little T & A...

    
    re .15
    
    Look man, I need to know the values of all but *1* variable, otherwise
    I can't figure out this algebra problem ;^)
    
    Hogan

    if ya get confused.....

>  Yes, nothing beats a headache like a little T & A...

Words to live by. ;-)

From:	EVMS::APACHE::ROY          "Glenn Roy DTN:264-5815" 22-APR-1997 14:58:52.91
To:	EVMS::OCTOBR::DEBESS
CC:	ROY
Subj:	Don't know if you remember me from '94 and before, could you please 
post this in grateful for all my dechead friends please?  thanks, Glen(n) Roy....




	I would like to share an experience I just had with you all.

	I live in a house which is 60 to 70 years old.  In 1981, the furnace
	was changed from an oil burner to a natural gas unit.  Not sure of
	what the maintainence was over the years.

	This past weekend I had my son for the weekend.  I picked him up on
	Saturday.  At the end of our day, we went to the house to watch a 
	movie, and then go to bed.  I had a headache (unusual for me), but
	didn't think too much of it.  When we got up Sunday, John told me
	that he wasn't feeling well.  Dizzy, headache, nauseous, etc.  typical
	flu symptoms.  A while later, he vomited.  I called his mother to 
	come pick him up.  Once outside, he vomited again, and was feeling
	pretty bad.  For some reason, I asked her to let me know if he all
	of a sudden got better.  At around 5:30 that afternoon, he called, 
	and he was feeling great.

	Other background.  When she came to the house, she detected a faint
	odor of gas.  (We have had a problem with the pilot going out on the
	oven.)  That night, I checked the pilot, and it was lit.

	On Monday, I called the gas company, and explained the situation,
	and also asked about having the place tested for carbon monoxide
	levels.  Their policy is that in the event of ANY gas smell, that if
	they can't get into the house (I didn't want to leave work right then)
	they will shut off the gas immediately until the problem is found,
	which is quite understandable.  So, I left work and went home to 
	meet the gas co. service tech.

	The first thing that we found was that the oven has TWO pilots
	(duh!) so that solved the gas smell.

	Next, he cleared his gas detection meter and set it to detect
	carbon monoxide, and we went downstairs to check the furnace.  As 
	soon as he started the furnace and put the probe near the sheetmetal
	of the furnace, the meter pegged!!!! indicating very high levels of
	carbon monoxide!!!!  The furnace exhaust was not exiting via the flu,
	but was 'spilling' out of the furnace into the basement.

	After a couple of hours of checking things, having a supervisor come
	in and resetting things, all was OK.

	What they found was that the inlet pressure for the gas was too high,
	therefore the furnace was running too 'rich' and producing excessive
	amounts of unburnt hydrocarbons, a perfect source of carbon monoxide.
	The other thing was that there was 'scaling' (corrosion) on the 
	surface of the combustion chamber, and that somehow prevented the 
	exhaust gasses from going where they should have.

	Once everything was done and said, they put the meter probe right
	into the exhaust stream, and the amount of carbon monoxide was almost
	zero.  All is now well.

	In retrospect, I can now look back and can see that I was waking up
	groggy, and had a hard time getting going in the morning.

	I am sending out this message to inform you of this.  I had thought
	that all the noise in the news etc. about CO poisoning was hype, I
	mean really, how many people do you know that have had this happen
	to them.  My message is that it is not hype.  This is real.

	We have a CO detector on the way, and it will be installed very
	shortly.  In talking to the service man, the detectors are VERY
	sensitive, so you have to be very careful about how you set them
	up.  There have been so many false alarms that our local fire dept.
	will no longer go out on a call for a CO alarm.  They will refer
	you to the gas company.  The gas company charges you to do the 
	testing.  I have done a bit of research on detectors, and will be
	looking into different types, but will no longer treat this casually.

	I apologize for the length of this message, but I feel strongly about
	this.  Please feel free to forward, post, tell anyone about my
	experience.  This nonsense is NOT worth dying over.  As a friend said,
	if you do have a CO problem and don't detect it in time, you'll never
	know it.  It's known as the 'SILENT KILLER'.

	Thank you,,,,,  Grateful to be alive,,,,,

				Glenn M. Roy

    That has happened more than once almost every year out here in
    Colo...unfortunately in most cases someone died.
    
    rfb

I suspected what this was from the general tone, but was convinced when I 
saw the "headache" "feeling dizzy, nauseous, etc".  Too many people don't
wake up from this one.
  We finally got a CO detector last year.  Try and go for the one that 
continuously monitors the CO level, rather than the type that accumulates
it till it reaches a certain level.  The first one samples the air every few
minutes and reports the parts per million of CO it finds on a LED display.  
When an unacceptable level has been reported over a long enough period of
time, the alarm sounds.  The second type has a sensor that gradually 
absorbs (and does not release) CO in a chemical reaction.  Usually when it
changes to a certain color (measured by a light shining through the 
sensor) the alarm goes off.  It's this second type that tends to give 
false alarms.  We've got the first type and it's down in the basement
with the woodstove and the furnace, cheerfully reporting 0.  I have managed
to get it into the 20's when fooling around too long with the woodstove
(smoke pouring out of a boxcar joint), but it always falls back to 0
in a few minutes.  At least I know it's working!  I've also managed to
set off the smoke detector.  Only really a problem when the kids are
already asleep...  Actually setting off the smoke detector has shown
us one thing.  We will need to rescue Dan if it ever goes off for real.
He has slept through every false alarm.  Actually we'll probably need
to do something with Hannah too, as she tends to panic.

PeterT

    
    	thanks Debess...... I've been reading from the web, and didn't know
    how to put in a reply.  As my brain is finally starting to clear, I
    figured out how to add grateful to my VMS account.....   (yes, my mind
    was foggy from extended low level exposure)   I did call my doctor, and
    all should be ok within days.
    
    	I have too much to do, but I WILL be stopping to buy a detector
    tonite, damn the cost, I almost start crying just thinking that I
    almost lost my son (to hell with me..... not really).  As to the type,
    I do keep hearing that the one with the readout is the one to get.  A
    co-worker just mentioned the Nighthawk 1 brand/model.  As far as I'm
    concerned, this one scared me enough that if I have to buy a half dozen
    of them, I will.  And I don't scare easily!!!!!!!!
    
    	love you all,,,, peace......   Glen(n)
    

I'm pretty sure the Nighthawk is the one we have.  They make a few
different types, so check to make sure.

PeterT

    
     This reminds of the a handgun safty course I took a few years back!
    
     They taught practice,practice,practice. Which I don't do enough.
    
     Home safty should be practiced, you should know escape routes out of
    your house and if you have children they should practice also, know how
    to get out and were to meet after getting out. Alarms do go good if
    someone panic's and runs and hides instead of getting out a the house.
    
    Divide

    
    	Quick update, bought a Nighthawk last nite.  $46 and change.  After
    this, I'd pay double.  Installed, 0 ppm.  My sister still smokes, so
    when she came home this morning, we tested it, and got it to read.
    Starting to calm down......
    
    	thanks for the input....  
    
    			Glen(n)