Conference rdvax::grateful

    I believe the two questions on the table are:
    1) What kind of lip-coating compound do you use in the winter?
    
    2) What "essential items" do you carry in your pocket or bag?
    

    1. never use the lip balm
    
    2. Anacin for tension type headaches

    1 suzy chapstick of course
    
    2 MATCHES.....gotta keep the smokin lamp lite

    
    
    
    1) Vaseline Petroleum Jelly
                              
    2) See 1), and Visine, and GUM, and a sparker
    

    1. love lube, errr I mean carmex
    
    2. knife (sometimes more than one), usually NO money (po folk, don'tcha
             know), sometimes a good luck arrowhead shard
    
    rfb

    1. Blistex (chapstick style)

    2. wallet, keys, shades, and a snappy attitude :-)

    1. I kiss my wife alot, she uses some tastey stuff but I don't know the
    brand....:')
    
    2. wallet, had a small pocket knife but I mis-placed it :'(

    
    1) Always some shade of red lipstick, sometimes some vaseline
    underneath
    
    2) Phone numbers, ATT card, items in #1, DCU bank card, mints,
       and treats.
    

    1. Chapstick
    
    2. Clerz (contact lens re-wetting device), mints of some extraction,
       Dec badge (only during work hours) wallet, loose change as it occurs,
       notes to myself "pick up this or that"   and the occasional need to
       carry stress relieving materials

    OK folks heeeeeeeeeere's anotha one for you...
    James Bond..
    who was (or will be as the case is) the best one
    1) Sean Connery
    2) some other yahoo for 1 episode?
    3) Roger Moore
    4) Timothy Dalton or
    5) newcomer Pierce Brosnan

    
     I think Sean says, stirred not shaken or is it shaken not
     stirred, the best ...
    
     Cath

Sean Connery - nobody else is/was/will ever be even close.

The man just oozes cool.

tim

    sean is #1 
    

    Sean, no one comes close

    All you old farts like that vintage 60's poop
    Give me Roger Moore....Live and Let Die ROCKED!!!!

    sean's the man!!

    
     1. Blistex....gotta love that lip "buzz"
    
     2. Rolaids, cash, and plastic
    
     3. Sean IS the man...

Actually, there were 2 other James bonds - George Landsby was the one Chris 
referred to and the David Niven played 007 in "Casino Royale".

Sean, imo, is the definitive Bond.

The Hitchhiker's Guide says the essential item to carry is a towel

jeff

I vote for Timothy (SUBPAC::) Dalton!

:-)

    1)  As noted earlier, Neutrogena Lip Mousturizer
    
    2) AIRPLANE TICKET TO ALBUQUERQUE! Wallet, car keys, cash, plastic
    
    3) James Who?
    
    ...michael T. TravelerHead

    
    Me thinks itsa tossup tween Sean & Roger...
    
    Sean was a savy Bond but Roger had "cooler" lines...
    I like em both!
    
    Dalton was a letdown [Sorry Tim]
    
    all this brings up the next question:
    
    What is your alltime Fav-o-rite Bond movie?
    
    
    Toby

    Best Musical Score-
    Live and Let Die (Obviously)
    Best Femme Fatale-
    Octopussy (What ELse?!?!?!!?)
    Best Action-
    tossup between Live and Let Die and Her Majesty's Secret Service(?)
    -good skiing scenes here
    Best Bad Guy-
    Jaws.....or Blofeld(donald pleasance who just passed away last week i
    believe)                                

1.	lip therapy: plain old chapstick.
	
2.	essential stuff: a pocket knife ( a good three blade Buck)
			 matches and/or a lighter (both most of the time)
			 wallet, keys and assorted denominations of coin.
	occasional essential stuff: gum, a stone or too.

3.	"Bond, Michael T. BondHead"
	
4.	No favorite Bond movie. I can sleep thru any of them equally.

    
    
     One more vote for ROGER MOORE. 

    Sean is too cool, but Moore was equal to the task... his line at the
    end of The Spy Who Loved Me to Barbara Bach, as the Russian agent who
    is about to kill him is soooo cool...
    
    "let's get outof these wet clothes"   delivered grate, and if I was
    about to be shot by Barbara Bach, my thoughts exactly :)))
    
    Live and Let Die...izn't that the Axel Rose toon....NOT

    1) Medicated Blistex (R) Lip Ointment
       works grate, but my tube has been getting runny
       (it separates into a gel and a drippy liquid) ??? weird
    
    2) * Swiss Army Knife!  (does anybody really use the toothpick as a
         toothpick?)
       * Keys
       * Wallet
    
       In coat pocket:
       * Blistex
       * Bloody shark's tooth (ok, it's actually a hunk o' wax, but it
         _looks_ like a bloody shark tooth!)
    
    /Mike             

    Toothpick?
    nope
    But i know what everyone uses the tweezers for!!!!

    tweezers - why for removing slivers, right Chris? ;-)
    
    Her Majesty's Secret Service was the George Lansby flick I think.
    I always liked Dr No with Jack Lord s FBI agent Felix Leiter.
    
    

    	1. Blistex
    
    	2. driv. licence
    	   cash card
    	   minimal cash
    
    	3. Sean...Very cool.- no fav.
    

    re;.28
    slivers?? someone say slivers???

    oooooooooooouuuuuuuuu....slivers send shivers up my spine...*8')

re            <<< Note 449.6 by SUBPAC::MAGGARD "Mail Order Wives" >>>

>    2. wallet, keys, shades, and a snappy attitude :-)


jeff - didya ever find your wallet that you lost when we went hiking?

re   <<< Note 449.26 by ROCK::CHARNOKY "The time has come, the walrus said" >>>
                            -< Junk 'n' more Junk >-

>    2) * Swiss Army Knife!  (does anybody really use the toothpick as a
>         toothpick?)


wait wait wait.... what i wanna know is, does anyone use the
tweezers as a tweezer??
:-)

    slivers? did some one say slivers????

	yeah, slivers. just enuf for the giggles.

    Yea...i get slivers all the time between my fingers and have to use those
    pesky tweazers, locked of course by the handy dandy leather punch....
    
    Now what i want to know is does anyone use that leather punch for other
    things besides punching a cow???

Slivers?  Oh, yeah, you mean splinters.  Use them all the time for that
type of thing.  And manipulating (and usually dropping! ;-) small items.
In a pinch, you can substitute them for that wired in tweezers in the
kids game, Operations!

Leather punch?  I thought it was an awl.  Oh, never mind, my dictionary
defines awl as a pointed tool used to make holes in leather and wood.
You say tomatoes and I say tamotoes....  Like they say, making holes in
wood and such.  Also useful for reaming out things where fingers can't
reach.

PeterT

    ....yea and scraping and cleaning and punching real fine holes in
    aluminum cans....now why the heck would anyone do that!!!   *;')

    
    
     A .22 rifle punches real fine holes in aluminum cans, empty ones that
    is.
    
    Divide Dave

Yeah, and shotgunnin' beers is fun too! :-)

- jeff

    now there's somethin I haven't done in a while! Shotgunnin beers! My
    kids were asking my wife and I about that after they saw it on a stupid
    TV show. Come to find out the oldest has done it in her more
    experimental days!...but with soda pop! HA!
    rfb

    i was always alot mor partial to funnelling myself...shotgunning is
    pretty easy to screw up....

    Ok, here's a new survey question:
    
    How many people have heard back from GDTS on their Philly orders?
    
    
    			-jeff_who's_still_waiting_however_impatiently

    not me
    
    chris_who_recently_purchased_a_hunting_rifle_at_bradlees_and_is_going_to_do_
    his_best_impersonation_of_charles_whitman_at_the_nashua_post_office_this_
    afternoon

    
    not me eitha.
     
    
    don

    Shotgunnin beer....did 1 can...once...ran right outside and gave it
    back to nature....
    
    boot to win, and I did
    
    Wes_who_can't_drink_carbonated_beverages_quickly_and_keep_them_down_
    and_now_prefers_to_drink_stouts_etc_quickly

    speaking of stouts etc....Patty and I did our Valentine thang last
    nite. went to a bar on the east side and had Sammmy's on tap, Laughing
    Lab Scottish Ale's on tap (local brew) and appiteasers,
    then to the yuppie brewery at the Antlers Hotel (made sure I had my
    jacket on with the skull-n-roses patch on the back for the yups) for 
    brewed-on-the-pemisissss nut brown ales, patty
    likes the wheat beer there, and raspberry wheat ales...and a couple of
    raspberry/nutbrown combos with our jalapino bumpers (jalapino's filled
    with different cheesessss.) good time! 
    
    Next Party.....our 19th aniversary!
    
    

    
    I'd like to do funnels of stout!!!!!
    
    Deane_with_booze_and_free_time_on_his_mind

    try snorting it deane..it gets in your blood faster

re          <<< Note 449.48 by DELNI::DSMITH "We'll make great pets" >>>

>    Deane_with_booze_and_free_time_on_his_mind




dude, let's PAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTYYYYYYYYY !

>    chris_who_recently_purchased_a_hunting_rifle_at_bradlees

just out of curiosity, and not in any way attempting to venture an opinion
on the subject or start up the gun control debate once again, is there a
mandantory waiting period and background check on an item like that, or does
that only apply to handguns?

- rich

    why you young whippersnaper! tryin to tell me what kind of gun I
    can...OH! wait aminute!!!!! I just re-read yer note! ;^)
    
    as far as I know Rich, unless the laws are VERY different in MAss, ONLY
    handguns have a waiting period....
    
    rfb

Wow, Chris, we should do some funnelling some time...I'm good at it (for a
skinny guy).

And, no, I haven't heard back on my Philly tix, and I hope they're waiting for
me tonight or tomorrow or I have a dilemma!

adam

    Rich
    in NH if you got a pulse you can buy a rifle...and even if you don't
    have  a pulse they'll still sell you one..LIVE FREE OR DIE!!
    like rfb said only handguns have a waiting period of a coupla days
    in NH

>                      <<< Note 449.52 by CXDOCS::BARNES >>>
>
>    why you young whippersnaper! tryin to tell me what kind of gun I
>    can...OH! wait aminute!!!!! I just re-read yer note! ;^)
>    
>    as far as I know Rich, unless the laws are VERY different in MAss, ONLY
>    handguns have a waiting period....
>    
>    rfb


Actually in MA, if I'm not mistaken, there is no waiting period for 
handguns either because the "brady" waiting period is satisfied by the 
license to Carry.

In NH you need to wait on handguns but not on longarms.  In MA you need an 
FID to purchase a longarm but there is no waiting period.

Geoff

    geoff you mean in MAss you can't even HAVE a handgun WITHOUT a Lic to
    carry???
    
    rfb

    just like that sign riddled with buckshot says as you enter MA on rte 3
    south....
    

                        VOTE NOW AND OFTEN!!!!!
    
    so who would you rather attend a dead show with, Tsutomu Shimomura or
    Kevin Mitnick???? Mitnick sounds more my type....Shimi "looks" more like a
    deadhead...I admire both for being the geeks they are...

>                      <<< Note 449.56 by CXDOCS::BARNES >>>
>
>    geoff you mean in MAss you can't even HAVE a handgun WITHOUT a Lic to
>    carry???
>    
>    rfb


Actually, you can buy a handgun with an FID but you can't take it home with 
you.  You can't legally own any firearm w/out an FID card.  You can't 
legally carry a handgun outside your abode w/out a License to carry.

Actually I think you can get a special dispensation to take a handgun home 
without a LTC but there are gray areas.

Geoff

So they finally got Mitnick, eh?

Gotta admire the guy's enginuity...

The book "Cyberpunk" has three good 'biographicals' on Mitnick, Robert Morris,
and a European called "Pogo."  Some good stories about hacking into VMS
systems.  :-)



- jeff

    stay tuned for the CBS late movie......
    
    
    rfb

    Survey question du jour:
    
    What is the strangest music/combo/setting you have ever encountered?
    
    See next reply for an example
    ...mike

    At a Caribbean foods place in ABQ I saw a jazz duo consisting of
    guitar...
    
    ... and TUBA! They were playing fusion (Hiroshima-style) jazz. Made the
    Jamaican jerked chicken REALLY jump!
    
    ...michael t. deadhead

>    What is the strangest music/combo/setting you have ever encountered?

well, this doesn't exactly count, since it's not referring to musicians
playing together, but the Violent Femmes opening for the Dead (Buckeye Lake,
6/91) was a pretty odd combo on the same bill.

- rich

    strangest setting ... country line dancing :-)

    think the Black crows will open in vegas??...they are the opener for the
    fla show.."i hate both of them"<<--oldest daughter quote, which I
    knocked up side da head shortly afterwards

    can i ask the date for the fla show?
    

    April 7 Tampa Stadium, Tampa 6:00pm Black Crowes open
    
    a one day show!!
    
    rfb

    Ya...considering what happened last year, they probably want to get in
    and out before the skinheads find out they're in town...

    I forgot about that!!!!!! let's hope for a more peacefull show this
    year...
    
    rfb

    	Thanks. anyone know if it's sold out yet? and if it's not,
    	may be a suggestion on how to score (tickets!) for this show.
    
    	-Rookie
    	[from Ottawa, Canada]

    mailorder is over...local ticketbastard sales yet to be
    announced...call the bastards and ask them i guess
    
    rfb

    	rjb,thanks.

	survey question from yesterday:
	
	strangest combo?
	
	piano and two drums!
	

	
	well, actually it wasn't strange, it was awesome.  ;-)
	sat, sep 21, 1991 boston garden. 

    Last year's riots were in Orlando.  Tampa stadium is almost a hundred
    miles away, in a different town altogether.  It's also a hell of a lot
    bigger than Orlando Arena, and has a much more mature security
    (hopefully).  Orlando security are nazis themselves...or at least they
    were in '91 when I saw the Dead there.
    
    Actually, I'm kinda curious about the Tampa show - it's the first time
    they've played in that area since '88, and I don't know if they've ever
    done the stadium.
    
    tim
    

    heres a new question to get answers for,
    
    now the Fleet Bank just bought Shawmut bank the new Shawmut Center
    needs a new name...can't call it Shawmut can they !
    
    Hows the BOSTON GARDEN sound to everyone else ?

    Boston Garden should stick...the Fleet Forum was suggested, no way...

    only forum i know of is the one i like to wave my private parts at
    when i am rumaging around La Rue de Saint Catherine....
    Garden....
    Fleet kicked down 3.7b for this merger...makes them the 9th largest
    bank in the country

    or the Forum in LA....how could Boston have a Forum considering Bruins
    and Celtics main rivals play in a Forum...

How about calling it the ATM? :-)

There's also the Felt Forum in Madison Square Garden and Conti Forum at BC
Leave it as Boston Garden or call it Merger Pavillion

I believe it's Shawmut who charge $1.75/atm use, including their own atms!

Strangest musical combo -- Yoko Ono and a microphone :-}

jeff

The name of the new Boston Gahden was the first thing that came to mind
when I heard about Fleet acquiring Shawmut...   I see it as a chance to
redeem the crappy name of the Shawmut Center into what it should be called:
the Boston Garden! 

I heard Fleet Forum on the newsports last night - yuck!  The Forum to me
means St Catherine Street/Les Habs, or LA.   Wes stated it best: Forum means
rival in Boston.

/Ken

Star Fleet arena...

geoff

    And the next question:
    
    Where do you go to purchase computer games (PC-based)?
    
    (There is a serious (?) side to this one... I'm looking for a
    particular game... who carries Avalon-Hill computer games in this
    area?)
    
    ...mike T. "Advanced Civilization"Head

re:                      <<< Note 449.83 by TRLIAN::DUGGAN >>>
>                                 -< PC Games? >-
>
>    And the next question:
>    
>    Where do you go to purchase computer games (PC-based)?
>    
>    (There is a serious (?) side to this one... I'm looking for a
>    particular game... who carries Avalon-Hill computer games in this
>    area?)

Any of the computer super stores, ie. Computer City, Circuit City. Comp USA,
even Lechmere, sell PC software.

Can't help with the publisher-specific question, though.

adam

    Happened to be browsing through Walmart last night and noticed they had
    a sh!tload of games and stuff for PC's. Couldn't tell ya if they had
    the specific one you are looking for but I could check it out if ya
    want and let ya know.
    
    							-jeff

    
    Interesting thing happened at CompUSA a couple weeks ago. I was picking
    up TurboTax.  I asked the sales rep for the Digital discount.  Their
    cost was actually higher than the current sale price.  This turned out
    to be a loss leader for them.  I would have paid $9.00 more for the
    discounted price.
    
    

re: places to get game software

Chips-n-Bits has lots of stuff.  800-555-1212 has their 800 number.

CompUSA's Digital employee discount is 13% over _their_ cost, and can
sometimes be a real steal, and other times not (as Mark sez) depending on
their markup.  In general, their hardware seems to be marked up higher than
their software, FWIW.

You can call CompUSA and check price/availability (with Digital discount) over
the phone.

Then of course there's the "for sale" notes in the 501CLB::GAMES and
NOTED::IBMPC-95 notesfiles.  And if you like to live dangerously, there's a
bunch of comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.* newsgroups where people sell games all the
time.


- jeff_PC-gamehead

jeff - when are ya gonna run NT instead of lame-o windows?????
:-)

jc

When they start writin games for NT.  :-)


- lame-o-DOS-game_playin_jeff

    
    So how is it bands from UK somehow lose their accents when they
    sing but not when they speak.
    
    Cath

Ya know, I was just wondering that last week when watching the rerun on 
A&E of Clapton's "From the Cradle" show.

Josh

    
    Ya know, I always wondered that myself.
    
    Just goes to prove that *they* have the accents, not us ;^)
    
    Hogan

    C'mon guys, the musical voice is an accent unto itself.
    And you obviously don't listen to enough Celtic music!
    
    PeterT
    

	Than you have US bands that sound British.  Like Green Day.
	They're from LA but I would've bet the mortgage they were from
	the UK...  

	/Ken

    But they have the accent when they speak!  Go figure...when they
    sing - no accent.  When they speak ACCENT ....
    
    

    
    Yabut,
    
    What about singers like Mel Tillis...
    
    He has a speech impediment (stutters) but has no problem singing!
    
    
    TaTaTa..Toby

    re .-1
    
    One of the methods of teaching people to overcome accents and/or speech
    impediments is to have them sing the words rather than speak them.
    
    gary

    and then of course there is the thought that one person's accent is
    another person's true voice
    
    'draw a circle and take them in'
    

    
    I think accents are Grate! ... I love listening to diffrn't ones..
    when I worked in WFO I used to listen to a couple of African guys
    speak their native tounge.. what a wild language  ... way cool
    
    
    Toby 

    I've always been a sucker for women with that smooth southern bell talk 
    or that sweet texas drawl...ya'll!
    
    rfb

    
    Come on Barnes, your just sucker for women, course nothing worng
    with that!!!!
    
    
    
    

re    <<< Note 449.101 by BSS::DSMITH "A Harley, & the Dead the good life" >>>

    
>    Come on Barnes, your just sucker for women, course nothing worng
>    with that!!!!
 


certainly not!
:-)   
    
    
    

    in the wake of yesterday's tragedy i pose a hard line question..
    if/when the perps are caught that are responsible for this, and the
    incident is traced to some type of state sponsored terrorism with 
    HARD cold evidence...should there be some military retaliation by the
    United States...?????? (hard cold evidence does not necessarily mean
    confessions either tho)
    it will be interesting to see how Assad, Mubarak (?) et al. will
    cooperate/respond to this incident..The Israelis already are offering 
    assistance.... 

> if/when ... the incident is traced to some type of state sponsored
> terrorism... should there be some military retaliation by the United
> States...??????

Would there be?  Most certainly.

Should there be?  ...well, I guess it depends on one's definition of "military
retaliation".  If it means the killing of innocent civs in another country --
via shelling/nuking some city somewhere -- then of course not.  We then just
give them more incentive (and justification) to fight back again ... this is
the cycle that the Arabs and Israel have been in for so long... as soon as you
'officially' kill someone, then you're at war.  Psychologically, being a
victim of war is very different from being a victim of terrorism.

If it means killing soldiers or govt officials who work for the offending
nation in an attempt to get the perps, then I have no problem with "military
retaliation."  Fortunately, there are very few countries in the world today
where this would be necessary.  

The probability that this is state sponsored is rather low.  There just really
isn't anyone pissed off enough at the USA who could gain anything by doing
this.  Not too many nations will sympathise with terrorists these days.  So,
IMO, the bomb was Made In USA.  Explosives are just too easy to get in this
country.  Just go buy a pile of shotgun shells and make yerself a pipe bomb --
get 100x or 1000x as much powder and you can blow a building out of the
ground.  Hell, I once blew a tree out of the ground when I was a kid just this
way.  

Anyone with enough money (few thousand $), enough guts, and a severe
deficiency of morals could have done that.  The fact that a Fed. building got
hit in the middle of the country (vs. say NYC or DC) makes a rather strong
case that someone near the middle of the USA is pissed off at the gubmit,
which adds to the concidental evidence that this is related to Waco.  If Iraq
was going to hit the USA, they'd have blown something up in some
'international' city like NYC or in DC.  But this is all inductive reasoning.

The only other thing I could think of is that someone important at that
particular Fed building pissed off a drug cartel somewhere, and the FBI/CIA
gave the Waco idea to the media as a cover for the investigation.

Terrorist hits occur in this country all the time ... neighbors of my parents
in FL had a very professional arson-ing of nearly finished $1M home, which
could have been due to either intra-family problems or run-ins with drug
cartels.  Fortunately nobody was hurt.  But this kind of 'personal' terrorism
never makes the national news.

- jeff

>    HARD cold evidence...should there be some military retaliation by the
>    United States...?????? (hard cold evidence does not necessarily mean

    I vote no, because it just continues the cycle.

    I'd rather do something to eliminate the political conditions
    which contribute to extremism.

                             
    I say no military retaliation to any state or group.
    
    However, Rage to the people who were directly involved with the 
    planning and organization of such a cowardly act.   
    
    This is the best country in the world, the killing of innocent and 
    unwarned lives, specifically children, will not be tolerated within 
    our own confines.  If this continues, the American people will unite 
    against such cowardly all forms of terrorism.  

    Jeff you think this is the work of some American based org?
    to me this has Beirut, Berlin/Italy, NYC bombing written all over it
    Not many people that are that pissed  at the US????
    hell half of the Muslim world around the globe thinks the US is
    Satan incarnated
    Khaddafy was just rattling his sabre the other day again FWIW
    To be held hostage in within the borders of one's own country
    is bullsh*t..i can see if and when you travel outside the US..
    that is your own choice...but to be scared to go to work...
    the death penalty for this would be too kind and gentle for these
    crazies
                 

    we'll never understand the minds of people that plan and carryout
    things as cowardly as this...I seriously doubt if the Waco tradgedy has
    anything to do with this, esp. after the news reports about middle
    eastern men, brown chevy P/U, minivan, etc. Centuries of hatred for yer
    fellowman that differs slightly from you have fueled this..we can't
    understand, unless we have been taught and haven't yet used our own 
    minds to throw off, racial prejudiced and religious hatred as severe as
    this...it just don't happen in much of AmeriKa.
    
    nationalism is a terrible thing....WE must be careful to not get caught
    up in the fevor it creates. 
    
    rfb

    Hezbollah.

>    we'll never understand the minds of people that plan and carryout
>    things as cowardly as this...

    I suggest we study the brains of Robert McNamara and Henry Kissinger
    for clues to this mystery.

    very good, tom....I agree, but notice I said "we".....not "them"
    
    rfb

Can someone refresh my memory as to why we bombed Libya in the 80's.  Was it
for an airplane hijacking/crashing?

That's one example of military retaliation to state-sponsored terrorism.

adam

    wasn't that for the combination Berlin Disco bombing and Rome Airport
    Massacre?
    

    or was it the Achille Lauro?
    Pan AM hijacking?
    christ how many terrorist acts have we seen in our lifetimes..
    scary 
    scary concept

	I'm feeling too violent about the killing of innocent
	people, especially children, to comment rationally...

It was the just the disco bombing in Germany.  Trust me on this one.

PeterT

    They said that the oldest of the children killed was 7.
    

>                     <<< Note 449.111 by CXDOCS::BARNES >>>
>    ...I agree, but notice I said "we".....not "them"

    Agreed, rfb, but I'd probably have to grow up in quite different
    circumstances before I personally can identify with acts of
    terrorism... I just haven't got that much to be pissed off
    about.  I read in the paper about a muslim cleric who would
    put 12 year old kids in a grave and throw dirt on them to see
    if they had "what it takes" to be a suicide bomber... have
    you noticed how they're usually in their early 20's.. like
    any soldier.  I think these "kids" get used by their elders
    to take out their anger on the infidels.. of course I don't
    know what happened on Ok City but if the past is any guide...
    too bad huh.  A kid is a kid is a kid.  Never did anything to
    anybody.  And so the worm turns.

    Tom

    Barbarians.

    
    Here's a good one conecerning crime and punishment..no not the death
    penalty...
    In today's paper there is a front page article concerning the use of
    chain gangs in the Alabama Correctional facilities..the state has 
    reinstituted them amid some protest..
    Is this cruel and unusual punishment?  Should criminals be forced to
    perform menial labor while incarcerated?

    >In today's paper there is a front page article concerning the use of
    >chain gangs in the Alabama Correctional facilities..the state has 
    >reinstituted them amid some protest..
    
    >Is this cruel and unusual punishment?  
    NO
    
    >Should criminals be forced to perform menial labor while incarcerated?
    YES

    Death penalty is cruel and unusual.  Chain gang?  Nah.  Might as well
    have them do something constructive...
    
    

    me too...  work off that debt to society...  
    
    					da ve
    
    ps.  with the stipulation that there are some jobs that might qualify
    for cruel and inhuman...  like, i wouldn't make them hand carry toxic
    waste you know?

    or write AXP drivers...
    
    ...mike
    

:-)

Funny thing - I was watching the news as well and saw the clip on the chain
gang and saying Alabama was 1st to REinstitute the chain gang.  The very next 
news piece was about a Massachusetts correctional officer (I think) who got
hit by a car while supervising a Prison work detail...

pretty damn much the same thing - 

As for what I think about it?  I think we should spend all of our money not 
on our children's schools but on prisons and inmates so they can all upgrade 
to 486 PCs and have air conditioned cells and big screen tvs (the oj trial 
you know!).  I think we should make sure they have more rights than you and 
I....

NOT!  

I think we should make em work to pay back for their upkeep;  a good friend was
in jail and actually had to pay rent (brentwood).

bob

    being in jail in the south is punishment enough! when I was a kid livin
    in GA. us little hippies would take cokes to the chain-gang members,
    usulally 90% black and being "overseed" by a huge redneck sherrif with
    those typical smoky sunglasses and shotgun. Crime was different in
    those days, MANY of the blacks incarcerated in the south in those days
    were done so unjustly and mostly because they were black. (not so sure
    it's not that way still)
    You almost never saw a white inmate on the chain-gang...shoulda seen the 
    looks from the cops when we'd pull up in my friends old rambler. You may ask
    how it was we never ened up with our hands tied behind our backs, 
    and a cinder block tied around our necks in the swamp...the kid that I 
    did these things with, his father was the
    town Sherrif of Hephzabah Ga. cops knew not to f*ck with him only
    because they knew who his daddy was....
    
    to close this ramble...I do believe our prisoners have it too easy in
    our prisons (half of them shouldn't be there in the first place) and I
    see nothing wrong with makin 'em work on road gangs...BUT! with ample
    water and food and protection from the sun. But even more so, I WANT A
    COMPLETE CHANGE IN OUR CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    rfb_criminal at heart

I think the difference in the "chain gang" vs work detail is basically
the chain.  

PeterT

    chain gang vs work detail
    the article also says before there was a 20 to 1 inmate to shotgun
    ratio
    with the chain in place there can be up to 40 inmates per guard
    
    less staff=less money=less tax on the law abiding folk

    
    My only concern is what is the risk of chain gang escapees?
    
    48 hrs is one of my favorite movies 8-) 8-) 8-)
    
    I see nothing wrong with criminals doing labor as long as it's
    not at the county sherrif's house/property.
    
    
    Toby

    well
    if you are shackled to 4 other guys you gotta convince em to
    join you
    plus they have dogs on hand
    i have seen work details in orange jump suits on rte 4 outside concord
    before so it has been done in NH
    i think it is a good idea
    unanimous vote in grateful
    for once!!!
    now about the NRA... I'M KIDDING!!! I'M KIDDING!!!!!  :^)

    
    >if you are shackled to 4 other guys you gotta convince em to 
    >join you
    
    so Chris - are you saying it's a learning experience?  Teambuilding 101
    

The movie to watch for chain gangs is one of my favorites - 

COOL HAND LUKE!


excellent!!!! movie...

bob

ps.  I've seen them in orange jump suits in Bedford, NH last year - they 
just don't have chains....

    that working on the roadside gig didn't work out well for a civilian
    yesterday on rte 495 near rte 4 exit. he was in charge of a roadside 
    workgang and he got hit by a car. both he and the driver of the car died
    

    re .133
    "What we have here, is a FAILURE to communicate!"
    :^)

       <-----------or was it Caan?
    that musta been Great Escape......
    all them jails clog my memory

>    that musta been Great Escape......

Bzzzt!  Steve McQueen!   also starring Richard Attenbourough as "Big X",
Donald Pleasance as the forger_who_goes_blind_forging_documents,
Charles Bronson as the_tunnel_digger_who's_claustrophobic...
Didn't Great Escape also have David McCallum (a.k.a Ilya Kuriakin),
and Rock Hudson as the American guy who scrounged up stuff (lookin' good in his
Brit turtleneck and cap).
Or am I confusing these last 2 guys with Stalag 17 (William Holden, Donald
Southerland...) ?

Josh_who_as_a_kit_was_real_impressed_by_the_cool_stuff_they_built_to_ventilate_
and_light_the_tunnel

    AHA!!
    and the McQueen was the one on the motorcycle buzzing around the
    rolling fields at the end.....
    good call

but the quote's from "Cool Hand Luke", or did I miss something here? Of 
course now I'll be Harry Dean Stanton singing all afternoon, "....get 
yourself a cheap madonna...."

    r.1
    Yup
    what i had was a failure to communicate

    Jim Garner played the Scrounger in _the great escape_
    
    ...michael t. "Maverick(The REAL one)"Head

    
    What month do you think the OJ trial will end?  What will be the
    verdict? Quilty, Innocent, or will he will a plea bargin? 
    
    
    I say he cops a plea in July. Something like 7 years in cushy jail.

    there won't be a verdict, there may not be enough jurors left... it will
    be a hung jury, he will WALK...Lance Ito has blown this from day 1...
    imho, he has done a terrible job...this "trial" has not been a trial,
    it has been a mini-series

>    What month do you think the OJ trial will end? 
    September
> What will be the
>    verdict? Quilty, Innocent, or will he will a plea bargin? 
    not guilty

    No way will he take the stand.

>    What month do you think the OJ trial will end?
don't care.

> What will be the verdict?
don't care.

i can't understand everyone's obsession with oj.

/rich

    
        Re: 449.145 "i can't understand everyone's obsession with oj"
    
        Nor can I Rich. But it's survey mat'l and today's a slow day.
        Maybe since he's a football player we should have an oj pool
        instead.
         
        Sloan   

>i can't understand everyone's obsession with oj.

    It's not him.. it's the justice system, it's celebrity, sex, violence,
    Hollywood, race, racism, sexism, infidelity, hangers on, newspapers,
    tv, lawyers, friends, and Broncos.  It's the whole ball of wax which is so
    peculiarly American. (or is that just peculiar).  It's Geraldo!

    As far as I can tell, they've got him dead to rights (or however
    that saying goes).  The interest is in seeing how it happens and
    what comes down.  I could care less about him as a football player,
    in fact I don't understand the hero concept.  Something about
    male dominated culture I think.  ;-)

    Plus, everybody's looking to get a piece of the action.  I find
    that fascinating.

    Tom

>we should have an oj pool
>        instead.

imnsho, nothing beats tropicana pure premium.  just the regular kind - i don't
go for that "homestyle" stuff with chunks of pulp.  anyone else?

:^)

/rich

    re: oj pool 
    I have friends that used to skinny-dip in huge vats of ice cream
    before it was frozen....

    >we should have an oj pool
    >        instead.
    
    yeah... but it'll be awful expensive filling a pool with oj... and
    think of the fruit flies!
    
    ...michael t. "tropicana"head 

	this oj pool, will it contain vodka?

    September, Guilty. I hate this thing along with the cottage industry
    of books, almost celebrities, and the drone of the news show.
    
    Oh what one can do with money.

    i hope it never ends
    What would Hard Copy *DO* if this trial ever ceased to exist??!?!?????
    

I like pulp, but good OJ is good with or without pulp. It doesn't need to be
any of that high priced Tropicanna stuff either, just good juice.

	Geoff A_not_so_scurvy_dog

    
    Yabut,
    
    If someone pens a non_fact-based book on OJ would that make it...
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    	Pulp Fiction?  8-) 8-) 8-)
    
    
    
    Toby

Toby, your humor is really gRINDing on my nerves!!!



:-)

- jeff

    Yeah this pun sh*t has lost its apPEAL

    Ouch. Shoulda SEED that one coming.
    
    gary

    You guys sure can squeeze a lot of bad puns outa one joke!

	orange cha glad phyllis isn't here ???

    
    re:I have friends that used to skinny-dip in huge vats of ice cream
        before it was frozen...
    
    So rfb, were you a spectator to this type activity?
    
    CMS

    these puns are the pits

I thought these puns were blossoming into juicy little bits

    Sounds like .163 is getting a little pithed off
    
    gary

    CMS - 
    no, I met the ice cream vat swimmers after the fact...they worked 3rd
    shift for a large ice cream company (that will remain nameless ) used
    to drop and go skinny dipping in the vats before they were
    frozen....lost my appitite for ice cream for awhile after I heard that
    story...

    SO THAT IS WHY MY SORBET HAD A HAIR IN IT!
    gross
    

So Clarence Thomas said:  "Hey!  Who put that pubic hair on my peace pop?"
Anita Hill was downright offended....
:)
bob

	random survey time.

	i'd like to know what song, dead or otherwise, will you associate
	with jerry's passing?
	
	for me it's _Comes A Time_. i had listened to 9/3/85 Starlight
	Theatre, set II: cryptical, other 1, eyes, a grate don't need
	love by brent, nobody's fault, smokestack, truckin' and the last
	song i listened to arriving at work was comes a time. i sat in my
	truck in the parkling lot to finish listening to it. i had it in
	my head all morning. i can still hear jerry's voice, which was
	clear and strong. it was the song that was in my mind during the
	quiet times all afternoon and evening. and every time i hear it,
	either on tape or in my mind' ear, i think of that day. 
	
	do you have a song that will bring you back to that day and time?
	

    Black Muddy River...  the last song he played with the boys...
    
    of course, there are others that will always make me smile and think
    warm thoughts about the fat man, like Terrapin fer instance...
    BMR though, will be the one i associate with his passing...
    
    				da ve_glad_it's_not_Black_Peter :^)

    Ripple..... 
    
    		 There is a road
    	  	 No simple highway
                 Between the dark and the light of day
    		 And if you go
    		 No one will follow
    		 If I knew the way, I would take you there
    
    Always been my favorite.  Wish I had the (correct) words to it.
    Brings tears to my eyes just playing it in my mind.
    
    GSI

Ripple

If my words did glow with the gold of sunshine
And my tunes were played on the harp unstrung,
Would you hear my voice come thru the music,
Would you hold it near as it were your own?

It's a hand-me-down, the thoughts are broken,
Perhaps they're better left unsung.
I don't know, don't really care
Let there be songs to fill the air.

Ripple in still water,
When there is no pebble tossed,
Nor wind to blow.

Reach out your hand if your cup be empty,
If your cup is full may it be again,
Let it be known there is a fountain,
That was not made by the hands of men.

There is a road, no simple highway,
Between the dawn and the dark of night,
And if you go no one may follow,
That path is for your steps alone.

Ripple in still water,
When there is no pebble tossed,
Nor wind to blow.

You who choose to lead must follow,
But if you fall you fall alone,
If you should stand then who's to guide you?
If I knew the way I would take you home.

La dee da da da, La da da da da, Da da da, Da da, Da da da da da
La da da da, La da da, Da da, La da da da, La da, Da da.

    
    I have two, for two very different reasons...
    
    First, I Fought The Law, since that was my last song I saw him play.
    That was the encore at Albany, 6/22/95.
    
    But, really Attics does it to me...Still can;t hear that without a
    tear.
    
    

    I don't know...i listened to the JGB CD last nite...almost every song,
    and esp the gospel tunes, had a lyric that made me sigh....I seem to
    remember Dear Prudence having some relevant lyrics too....
    
    Black Muddy River too, Stella Blue too......lots of songs...
    
    
    I listened to the soundtrack CD last nite from the movie Smoke.
    Therer's two new JGB songs on there, Smoke Gets In Your Eyes by JEROME
    KEND  (?) who Jerry was named after (weird) is really funny. I can see
    Jerry having a hard time with this one in the studio, laughing and all.
    The second song is Ciggarettes and COffee...a way cool song in typical
    JGB gospel mode...listened to this one several times in a row...if
    anyone would like these two songs, lemme know. 
    rfb

    Jerome Kern

Stella Blue is one....a lot of images in that song...
In the end it's just the music....



All the years combine, they melt into a dream,
A broken angel sings from a guitar.
In the end there's just a song comes cryin' up the night
Thru all the broken dreams and vanished years.
Stella blue. Stella blue.

When all the cards are down, there's nothing left to see,
There's just the pavement left and broken dreams.

In the end there's still that song comes cryin' like the wind.
Down every lonely street that's ever been
Stella blue. Stella blue.

I've stayed in every blue-light cheap hotel, can't win for trying.
Dust off those rusty strings just one more time,
Gonna make them shine, shine

It all rolls into one and nothing comes for free,
There's nothing you can hold, for very long.
And when you hear that song come crying like the wind,
It seems like all this life was just a dream.
Stella blue. Stella blue.

    Box Of Rain ... every radio station I turned to was playing Box of
    Rain for about 2 days after Jerry died. Even at the health club.
    It was mucho strange.

Stella Blue.

I will, of course, miss all his songs, especially Terrapin Station, Scarlet
Begonias, and Eyes of the World.  I seem to associate him mainly with his
mellow tunes, eg. China Doll, Days Between, So Many Roads, Ripple, UJB etc.

:-(

    
    I was in Florida visiting my folks, who don't put the radio on much, so
    I didn't hear any Dead tunes until I returned home last weekend.  It
    came down to which tune I would put on the stereo first, and the choice
    was obvious for me: Ripple.  And the first time I picked up my guitar
    this week, the choice was the same.....
    
    Hogan

    It is Ripple for me, too.  It has always been one of my favorites, both
    the music and lyrics move me.  I still can not hear it without tears
    brimming up. (BTW, we played the JGB CD this weekend and "I Shall
    be Released" reduced both Mike and I to tears as well.)
    
    -jer

    re:BTW, we played the JGB CD this weekend and "I Shall
        be Released" reduced both Mike and I to tears as well.
    
    I here ya...I had to wait until last nite...
    
    rfb

    
    So Many Roads (Definitely)
    Stella Blue (There's nothing you can hold for very long)
    Eyes of the World (my fav.)
                              

    was talking at lunch with my buddy Ed about this topic...  he said he's
    not sure what song he'd associate with the death, but as far as he's
    concerned, Uncle John's Band is "about one of the most important songs
    ever written"...  just cuz it's such a nice tune with a cool message...
    
    

    Althea, Terrapin, New Speedway and Black Peter
    
    smoking
    killer 
    kind

    
    
    To Lay Me Down
    
    
    
    
    

    He's Gone....nothings is ever gonna bring him back. 
    Eyes Of The World
    Black Muddy River
    Ship Of Fools
    Stella Blue
    Morning Dew
    I Know You Rider
    
    too much to list....have so many songs playing in my head all the time.
    
    still numb from the situation at hand...
    

	All *New* survey question:
	
	GDTS is making arrangements for the money people will forfeit to
	keep tickets to go to charity.
	
	Will you keep any tickets? Which one(s)?
	I'd like to keep two: the first, cuz it was the next show, and
	the last cuz it says "We're gonna tear this old building down".
	But, I'm not sure yet.
	Think some people will keep all six? Maybe a whole set will be
	worth something 20 years from now. That's $200 bucks, tho.
	
	What are you keeping?
	

    I'm keepin' that last one!  I'll probably frame it with a picture
    of Jerry.

    Tom

    
    Last ones goin in the Deane Smith Grateful Dead Scrapbook...along with
    some other really interesting stuff I've collected o'er the years.
    
    Counted my ticket stubs last night....I had 50.  Exactly.  There were
    a couple shows I was too frazzled to deal with hanging on to the stub.

    same here
    that puppy is getting framed along with the Rolling Stone issue
    if and when it comes out
    
    
    along survey lines
    what, in your opinions, was the *Coolest* mail order ticket you ever
    got??
    design..size..color..etc etc etc 

    coolest tix=telluride, one tix for two days with the skull and roses on
    it...
    
    rfb

    
    
     I have to agreed with rfb!
    
    

coolest ticket was always the one that would get me into the next show.

i cannot put my finger on one song that relates me to jerry's passing.




Well, I have 4 tix for each of the 6 shows in boston, so, i guess i'm
gonna wanna get some of that $$ back.  now, what is the number of that
appriaser?  i'll probably keep the last one... just one.

    Many of the New Year's tickets were very cool. NYE tickets tended to be
    two to three times the size, and were quite elaborate. I have one with
    saucers and all on it...Might have to scan that one in....

I have a pair of the last 4 of the 6 Boston shows.  I'll probably do what
Tom said - blow up one of my Giants Stadium (91/92) pictures, matte it with
a color photocopy (not the original, for security reasons) of one of my
tickets, frame it, and hang it.  I might keep a Friday ticket just because
it was Friday.

NYE 91-92 had really cool tickets.  About 2.5"x4" in size, with red and
blue "chrome" highlights on a white ticket.  I took a couple of pieces of
corrugated cardboard from the concession stand in Oakland, put the ticket
in, wrapped it around in rubber bands, and made a protective carrier for
the ticket.  It's in mint condition at home.

I think I want to get a firebox/strongbox to put my stubs in.  They are in
a box right now, somewhat vulnerable to fire/water/beer/etc.

adam

    was drinkin and palyin tapes (Telluride) last nite with Hoot Gibson, he
    pulled out his box of stubs and showed me a classic.
    
    9-30-76 orig in some hall, not enough tixs sold so moved to Mersham Aud
    Ohio State campus...orange tix, rather plain, the tix read :
    
                     GREATFUL DEAD
                       ^^      
     we can find *NO* tapes of this show....
    
    rfb

    
    Rex benefit tix from 93 run at the Gahdin aren't too shabby.

    
    yeah that one is pretty cool deane
    
    thank you all for responding
    
    
    

      Since Mr. Leblanc has requested it....here's a new survey:
    
        who do you think, if anybody, could or should step in to take over the 
    guitar duties of the band, should they choose to go on?
    
    Also...part 2...should they change their name (from Grateful Dead to ?
    
    

    
    
    I refuse to respond DaveB's survey for reasons of BLASPHEMY!
    
    
    
    :-(
    
    It's over

	i say we fatten up bruce mandaro, and get him a real beard.

    I think they should get Slash.  And call themselves The Electric Squid.
    
    Yes... yes... I can see it now in my nightmares... yes...
    
    ;)

    martin you are one pessimistic SOB
    
    don't go throwing yourself in front of a bus or anything

    
    I don't think I'm "being negative" but I am definately not
    ready to start thinking about replacements...
    
    still_grieving_mj

    
    Right on, MJ...
    
    Down with these unwashed heathen blasphemers!
    
    
    
    Dammit.
    
    
    Steve-O_Grieve-O
    
    

    might as well change that personal name
    GRIMMACE!

>    GRIMMACE!

	Hah!!  or FROWN.
	
	and i'm a WASHED heathen blasphemer!
	

    > and i'm a WASHED heathen blasphemer!
    
    
    Yeah, but did you get behind your ears?  You know that's where all that
    heathen stuff comes from...  Or didn't your mom ever tell you? ;)
    
    

    i thought that was where they gre potatoes?
    
    :^)

Well, I'll respond.

Steve Kimmock (sp?) from the band Zero.
Awesome guit-box player.

I'm with MJ on this one.  Too soon.

In over 20 years of listening, I've never heard anyone
even come close to him.  But, perhaps it's still too
soon to tell.  I know I still can't spend too much time
even reading here, even though it's nearly two weeks
later...

tim

    Beethoven is dead, and so is Mozart.  Glenn Miller is dead.  However,
    their collective music has been played well for years following their
    departure from this Earth.  Why can't the Grateful Dead go on without
    Jerry?

    Well, they can, I guess.  And we all agree that it obviously will be
    'something different' if they do.

    Pigpen died, and for the most part, his music went with him.  Bobby does
    'lovelight' now, but that is far different than what Pigpen did with it.
    And that was a cover song anyway, wasn't it?  Brent came and went, and
    Vince has taken his place.  With Brent's departure, his songs no longer
    became part of the repertoir.  Jerry is gone now.  As far as Jerry's
    songs go, they are gone.  I feel personally that to have someone play
    guitar and sing Jerry's songs (try to "be" Jerry) is absurd.

    Classical composers create what I call "objective" music, where the
    music is written down, the music is not associated with a particular
    voice or personal style.  Any orchestra (good enough) can recreate this
    music the way it was meant to be played.  Same with Glenn Miller, a good
    big band orchestra can play his stuff like his band did.

    However, rock music (and I'll call the Dead "rock" for lack of a better
    term here) is subjective.....the very core of the music is linked 
    directly to the performer's singing and playing style, and that singing
    and playing style becomes the very essence of the music.

    They have Bobby's music left, and Phil's music left, and Vince's music.
    If they decide to go on with anbother guitarist, they will have his/her
    music.  But if they play Jerry's music, then they are a cover band.  His
    songs really do not belong to them anymore, only in the past.

    Just my opinion.

    Hogan

    Eric Clapton would make a good choice (seriously!) The Dead
    would make a great back-up band for a lot of EC's funky stuff
    (imagine Hand Jive, Crossroads, Let It Rain, I Shot the Sheriff,
    etc. with Bill and Mickey). An EC's been known to play a blues
    link or 2. Did you ever see the Stones show from Atlantic City
    in 89 when EC came onstage and did Little Red Rooster? He wiped
    up the stage with Keith and Ron Woods. EC live can get the
    whole band behind him like an extension of his energy (Great
    Woods 92 show!). Time for Eric to get a new band!

    no offense to EC fans in here but, let me just say,
    
    
    		EEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    	i can't see it...  not at all...  Eric is too much himself...
    he's a blues man...  let him do his own thing...  i can't imagine him
    linking up wit the boyz.....
    
    	however, if you'd said Jorma, my reaction may have been a little
    different...  :^)  
    
    					da ve

	re: hogan and the orchestra analogy
	
	yep, i hear ya. rock *is* different.
	my real point was that it stayed the glen miller band and
	continued. i think the GD should stay the GD and continue.
	With someone who will compliment the band, but not try to take
	jerry's place.
	
	i like the jorma idea. but, be's got a band. (i just listened to
	the hot tuna at northboro tape ;-) they're at club casino tonite.

EC is not a good fit.

The dead was more of a team.
no one really had "star" status (well, maybe bobby occasionally when he
does his rock star act).  they were all stars.  EC is more of a
guy who has a backup band, and he's the front man.  wouldn't work
with the dead, imo

    here's my .02 on "should they go on? etc...I say No..leave it...maybe
    they will play together again, but I don't think they should call it
    the Grateful Dead...Jerry was too much "the sound of the band" and that
    is in no way meant to detract from Bobby, Phil, Mickey or Bill, but
    Jerry's guitar and voice are too distinctive...
    
    I would compare this situation to The Beatles...and as George Harrison
    once said when asked if the Beatles will re-unite... "as long as John
    Lennon remains dead, The Beatles will not re-unite"
    
    Wes_catching_up_on_2+_weeks of notes

    Santana said at a show last week that he "talks" with Jerry and Jerry
    is telling him that he Grateful Dead *MUST* go on....there are those
    that think otherwise "but that's their problem" is what Carlos said..
    

    damn straight they should
    

    
    
    Carlos is a tripper.
    
    

    
    Did Jim Morrison tell him to get the "doors" back together with Val
    Kilmer as the front man?
    
    
    I didn't think so...
    
    ;-}  
    
    

    grim
    grim
    grim
    grim
    grim
    grim
    grim
    grimmace....
    

I've been pondering this disband/continue question for a while without 
piping in, but since I seem to be reaching the same conclusion each time, I 
guess I've made up my mind. Just as the band evolved and changed when 
Pigpen died, I'd like to see them continue so long as they don't just hire 
a "jerry sound alike". I love the Dead with Jerry and it will be difficult 
to see them initially with him not there. If they can continue by exploring 
new musical directions and maybe even through in an instrumental Jerry tune 
every once in a while. Some might think this is blasphemy, but the thought 
hearing Branford come on stage to play "Eyes" would sure bring a smile to 
my face and alot of great memories.

My hope is that they get guests like Branford, Hornesby, Ornette & others 
to take the focus of any new member(s), particularly a guitarist.

jeff

Most of my favorites were Jerry tunes.  I'm not sure I'd want to see
them without hearing the music that I loved so much.  China->Rider,
Scarlet->Fire, GDTRFB, the Wheel, Deal, not to mention his acoustic
stuff...it's all too much of a loss to expect anything will ever be the
same...sadly.

Of course, there is Women Are Smarter, Johnny B. Goode and the whole
Cowboy era... Hmmm....  Maybe...;-)

tim

    
    When Billy came out and played drums with Buffett last week,
    well, it wasn't the Dead by any means, but *IT* can come 
    around in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
    
	:-)

    ok
    repsonse has dropped off somewhat
    i am looking for answers to this question
    as i sit here, peanut butter all over my keyboard, and having
    rediscovered my love for it on bagels, ipose this to you the grateful
    noters
    
    are youa 
    1) cream chesse
    2) peanut butter
    3) butter
    4) plain
    5) other
    
    
    type with bagels?

    
    None of the above! I would rather starve tahn try and eat A BAG-el!
    
     Divide Dave

Hey Now, Dave!

I bet that you haven't had a good Brooklyn Bagel fresh out of the oven on
a Sunday morning.  Slathered with lox, cream cheese, and a nice tart onion
slice.  Ummmmmmmmmm.

	dave

    Cream cheese

Cream cheese.  Anything else is like having pastrami on white bread, to 
paraphrase Woody Allen ("Annie Hall" ?)

Ya want real bagels, get 'em at Kupel's in Brookline, MA.

 Josh

    bagel with lox spread .. to die for
    

	this time o' year, I like my bagels with a slice
	of a garden fresh tomato

	Debess

    Cream Cheese...get 'em on Water St. in Wormtown...

    
    I've tried to quit bagels on numerous occasions and never had much
    luck.  Personally, the best bagels I ever had were in Dunes City
    Oregon at a roadside choke&puke (diner).

    
    dave, your right and I don't plan on trying one!!!
    
     Give me a bag Bag-el's a skeet thrower and a good 12 gauge pump and
    I'll show what goes good with one, or what one puts through a Bag-el!
    
       . .
        ,
      \___/
    
    Divide Dave.
    
     It snowed here last night and the flat landers are out in force seeing
    how roads they can block with stupid driving habits....
    
     I am not ready for snow I still want'a fish and play in the sun!!!
    
    
    
    

    I wanted to try  agood bagel when I was back east....never did, I'm
    with Divide Dave...rather have toast.....
    
    rfb

    
    Best thing in the world for breakfast is
    
    bacon, eggs and grits'......
    
    
    Divide Dave

    RE: bacon, eggs and grits
    
    with breakfast brookies!!!!
    
    rfb
    you've started something with the grits comment...wait and see...%^)

>    RE: bacon, eggs and grits
			  ^^^

but only when my mother or sister cook em:) and NEVER in a restaurant,
bob

Butter most of the time, cream cheese some of the time, Dave Levy's suggestion
of cream cheese, lox, and a nice onion slice sounds decent too.

I'm sure there are somewhat decent bagels in New England, and I've found
a few that are really close, but none that really compare with NYC area
bagels.  Doesn't really have to be Brooklyn, as my home town was a bit
farther east and had really excellent ones.  We always pick up a 
couple of dozen when we're down visiting.  And I have one good friend
who always brings up a few dozen when he visits.  Going to have to stock
up when we go down for my neices christening in a few weeks.

But you know what I really miss about living in the NY area (and it 
ain't the hordes of people!)?  After partying late on a Saturday night,
(or Monday, Tuesday, etc ;-)
walking into a bagel store about 2AM and buying a dozen or so that
just came out of the oven.  Mmmmmmmmm.  Don't need to put anything on
those babies....

PeterT 

    there's also some Grate bagels from Montreal...but then, everything
    from Montreal is Grate...
    
    Wes_unashamedly_always_extolling_the_virtues_of_Montreal

    i one time killed a deer with a stale bagel that had been 
    left on the dash of my truck for a few days...hit him right betwen the
    eyes and he dropped like a stale bagel, err i mean stone. 
    rfb

    
    
    Yeah that was a large one!!!!
    
    Divide Dave

    can you tell that Divide Dave and I have very little to do today???
    
    rfb

    re. -1
    obviously
    re. montreal 
    all things from montreal are cool..........................
    except the freakin Canadiens

    
    Cream Cheese, no other choice for a bagel.....
    
    Hogan

    	Cream Cheese, garden-fresh tomato slice, thick Red Onion slices, 
    liberally cover the whole thing with Veggie Pepper and some garlic salt....
    Chow that puppy down for breakfast, then go to work & watch the crowd
    clear a path for you as you approach! 
    
    	-chuck
    
    BTW, I second the Lox reccomendations for non-vegetarians.... Alas,
    that's one of the vey few carniverous pastimes I miss....
    
    

       I'd love a nice garlic bagel(not toasted) with some chive cream
    cheese, a nice slice of onion and maybe some Kosher pickle slices and
    if I get real wild and crazy some Nova lox...
    
    Or maybe a nice toasted wheat bagel with peanut butter melting all
    over it...
    
    Or maybe a nice onion bagel toasted with butter and garlic salt...
    
    Just keep those darn RAISINS offa my bagel, thank you...
    
                :-)

    
    Pumpernickel bagels rule!!!!!
    
    Hogan

    pumpkin bagels are a nice festive way to celebrate the arrival of
    autumn
    
    as is pumpkin pie.....aple pie...cider.....baked and glazed apples
    candied apples...
    
    this is a good season for eatin'

    
    I had a spinach bagel last year, from Key West Coffee in Acton, with 
    butter and cream cheeze.   
                                                                  
    I can clearly recall it was so savory I wished the moment lasted forever.

Neccessary ingredient to go with the Bagel with Cream Cheese and Lox:

		The Sunday New York Times.

    That does it, it's bagel and cream cheeze and the Glob this
    weekend (close!)

    Tom

    Just finished my second bagel of the day, egg & onion it looked like.
    With butter (or, rather, margarine, butter these days is reserved
    for making cookies)  The supply is getting low.  Might get 
    wiped out before we're able to stock up next week.  
    
    PeterT
    

    There's a place in Auburn that has awesome bagels, all kinds of em:
    pumpernickel w/ seeds, Indian Harvest (9 grains + seeds), garlic,
    "everything", and on an on.  Made daily.

    Bucky's Bagels on Rt 12 if you're in the area...

    /Ken

    Down by the intersection with 20?  Been there once or twice, They are
    some of the best in the area. Not quite New York like, but that's
    just a hometown preference.  I guess I'm just looking
    for that reeeealll New York bagel, the classic New York pizza
    here in the heart of New England.  I've heard, or thought, that 
    maybe it's just the water, and the dough's a bit different,
    but I've found one or two pizza places that get it right, 
    so it can't be impossible...
    
    Of course, if I'm really serious about it, maybe I should try
    making some and find out how hard it is ;-)
    
    PeterT
    

re: <<< Note 449.258 by SMURF::PETERT "rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty" >>>

>    Down by the intersection with 20?  Been there once or twice, They are

    That's the one...  I've never had a real NY bagel, but I sure would
    like to try one.  They sound awesome!

    /Ken

re  <<< Note 449.228 by CSLALL::LEBLANC_C "All good things in all good time" >>>
                        -< Specially the crunchy style >-

>    1) cream chesse


and lots of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

re  <<< Note 449.228 by CSLALL::LEBLANC_C "All good things in all good time" >>>
>                        -< Specially the crunchy style >-

>    1) cream chesse


crunchy cream cheese??!!??

    One time I was checking out through 10 items or less line with 11
    items.I was prepared, if questioned, to explain that bagels and 
    cream cheese are a single item.
    
    Geoff

    Lox, cream cheese, onion, thin slice of tomato

    what is up with all the tomato heads?
    have i missed a bagel fad n' never even realized it?

    Yes, I never knew anything but Lox, and or cream cheese, ever went
    on a bagel.

Long Island "everything" bagel with whitefish salad and a thick, juicy slice
of ripe-red tomato.

MMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm................ :-)

    
    prolly shoulda been entered under the Ask the Universe Note:
    
    
    What is Lox????
    
    Toby_neva_had_a_NY_style_bagel_but_is_willing_to_try
    
    

    
    Lox is a Swedish thing.  Fish!

>     Lox is a Swedish thing.  Fish!

Geez, and I always thought it was Jewish Sushi...

;-)

PeterT

	Lox is smoked salmon, though I don't think it's Swedish.  Yummy. 
Pickled herring is also good with bagels, as are tomotoes, and cream cheese. 
I'll have to try the fresh onion idea.

    
    re- last couple
    
    Thanks fer the explanation!
    
    sounds yummy
    
    
    Toby

    	A Swedish thing! Oy Gevalt! 
    
    Lox is very thinly sliced smoked salmon. I didn't know about the
    Swedish part, but it's a very popular Jewish food, you can get it in
    any deli worth its (kosher) salt...... :^) Oy! Vy else vould it be
    such a smash vith the Bagels, already, I ask you?
    
    BTW, a *great* Jewish Deli in Seacoast New Hampshire is Goldi's, in
    downtown Portsmouth...
    

    Lox= smoked, filet salmon, cut very thin, ,high priced 1/4 lb $8.00
     
    

>    BTW, a *great* Jewish Deli in Seacoast New Hampshire is Goldi's, in
>    downtown Portsmouth...
    
	there's also a new "new york style" deli in (of all places)
	Milford NH on the oval - Hermi's

I saw a lot of salmon, both smoked and pickled, in Stockholm.  I
think the Swedish word they used was lax, not lox....but I was pretty
sleepy the whole time I was there (especially at dinner time), so I
may be mistaken...

BTW, it was terrific!

tim

    
    lax is 100% correct for the Swedish term so perhaps lox is the Jewish 
    term.  Not that I'm Swedish or Jewish, but I have involuntarily become 
    very familiar with the swedish culture. I link most cured, smoked, pickled
    and dilled salmon products to the liking of the viking as thats what
    the deal is over there.

    
    
    I got my Dick's Pick number 3 last night and enclosed with it was a
    survey card asking what my favorite top 10 Grateful Dead shows are:
    
     What I decide I would like to do is run a survey here for the
    everyones top 10 shows, I will then enclose that list with a letter to
    GD records letting them know this a survey from XX amount of people and
    this is the top 10 from DecHeads....
    
    So let me know your top 10 shows by date and I'll tabulate the results
    and send them in....
    
    Divide Dave

    uh-oh...  voting on two different things at the same time?!?!?!?!?
    how muhc can one poor vax stand?  :^) :^) :^)
    
    favorite 10 shows?  how much can my poor brain stand?  
    the first albany show definitely...
    friday night worcester, 1988...  not the gratest show musically, but it
    	got me back onthe bus after a long hiatus...
    Madison Sq Garden...  hmm was that 1990?  can't remember...the weekend
    	run i attended was awesome...
    and the boston garden shows from the year/run that there were a couple
    	of darks stars...  92 maybe?
    
    times like this i wish i had deadbase at work...
    
    					da ve

    
    yea da ve it's going be hard to figure out, I have all my old tickets
    so I have a way to look for the dates.
    
    BTW all thats needed is day/month/year
    
    Divide

>    I got my Dick's Pick number 3 last night and enclosed with it was a
>    survey card asking what my favorite top 10 Grateful Dead shows are:

  Probably best to answer from the standpoint, What are the top 10 shows you
  want Dick to Pick for release.
  
  Time for a look at Deadbase...   - JayC.

>    and the boston garden shows from the year/run that there were a couple
>    	of darks stars...  92 maybe?

	no bawstin shows in '92. 
	this particular whole in my space_time continuum is prominent
	
	;-)
	

>	no bawstin shows in '92. 
>	this particular whole in my space_time continuum is prominent
	
	;-) pay attention da ve, Dammit!, Jay just told me this last week! ;-)

	Debess

	

	my top 10:
	
09/03/85  Starlight Theatre    Kansas City MO   2
10/09/76  Oakland Coliseum     Oakland CA       2
11/17/73  Pauley Pavilion      UCLA             2
07/19/74  Selland Arena        Fresno CA        2
06/14/69  Performing Arts Ctr  Monterey CA      ? 
10/09/89  Hampton Coliseum     Hampton, VA    1,2
07/02/89  Sullivan Stadium     Foxboro, MA    1,2
06/25/92  Soldier Field        Chicago, IL    1,2
09/21/91  Boston Garden        Boston         1,2
09/28/94  Boston Garden        Boston         1,2

	btw, Divide Dave, there's another top 10 note: 386 if ya wanna
	add them to the survey.

    
    
    Thanks, I'll check it out!
    
    Divide Dave

Ken's Top Ten:

12/28/69  Maimi, Florida       45  7 SB  B   Maimi Expo
04/28/71  Fillmore East, NY    180  2 SB  A   w/ T.C. Hard2Handle,DarkStar
08/27/72  Veneta, Oregon       180  1 SB  A-  some B+ Keseys Farm GREAT show!
03/24/73  Spectrum, Philly PA  100  1 SB  A-  II Has '73 buzz, nds more bass
10/22/78  Winterland, San Fran 180  7 SB  A-  Great NFA->Caution->Mojo Jam!
09/15/85  Chula Vista, Ca      90    AUD B   Set II Twilite Zone opener
09/16/90  MSG, New York City   190  1 ADM A-/A Phil+Kbd jam. Set II is FOB
09/19/90  MSG, New York City   190  1 SB  A   great, PITB,LetItGro setII
                                             SBD>D6>DAT>mycopy(1st a~ gen)
09/20/90  MSG, New York City   190  2 AUD B+/A complete, "A" set II side B (FOB
10/31/91  Oakland Colliseum    190  1 DSB A   sounds great! clear Kesey
					      

Special notes:

    8/27/72  probably my favorite show ?
    10/31/91 as the best show in the last 10 years!



BTW, I noticed a "great Eyes" on my list for '73...

02/15/73  Madison, Wisconsin   180  3 SB  A   Dark Star, great Eyes

da ve was right about MSG '90 :-)

/Ken

>03/24/73  Spectrum, Philly PA  100  1 SB  A-  II Has '73 buzz, nds more bass

This is my first show...and I don't have it yet...so I second it for inclusion
somewhere...;-)

tim

>>03/24/73  Spectrum, Philly PA  100  1 SB  A-  II Has '73 buzz, nds more bass

>This is my first show...

	hey tim!  you and me got on the bus within 4 days of eachother...cool!

	Debess

And my first show was at Nassau Coliseum during the same run, I believe.
It was sometime in late winter/early spring of '73 fer sure.  
Hmmm, wasn't GerryG just getting on the bus too?  or was that '72?

PeterT

I think I recall (da ve, maybe you know) that GerG saw Pigpen.  He died
just before spring tour, '73, so those of us who's first shows were then
missed him.

    GerG's first showG was 10/2/72 Springfield.   (How do I remember this
    stuff ? I don't know, but Ger mentioned it a few times in old notes,
    and I remembered it was Oct '72, and I happen to have deadbase here
    in the office, and... ;-)

    /Ken

    All this talk recently of spirits has me wondering..
    As an agnostic/doubter/pessimist I never ever thought of supernatural
    phenomena as believable..i.e. UFO's, ghosts etc. a case of "I'll
    beleive it when i see it" type of thing
    well this past autumn my thoughts changed on it after an experience in
    a relative's vacation home in vermont...
    How many grateful readers have experienced such eye opening/thought
    provoking/mind changing things?and please share your snack with the
    group
    
    

    I've shared mine..cris, what exactly was the experiance that changed
    yer mind?
    
    rfb

	this didn't happen to me, but to my ex-sister-in-law.
	It was probably the first person that I was close to that
	had had and shared such an experience with me, and her 
	"witnessed" experience made me truly believe in spirits.

	Sandi's mom's family was from England - some had migrated to
	the US and some had migrated to Australia and some were still
	in England.  It was not very often that she saw most of her
	relatives.

	One night, when she was married to my brother, she woke up
	in the middle of the night and sat up to see her grandfather
	(from Australia) standing there at the foot of the bed.
	I can't remember if he talked to her or not, but she was so
	shook up from the visage that she woke my brother for some
	comfort.  The next day her mother found out that her father
	(the grandfather) had died the night before.
 
	Debess_who_has_probably_shared_TOO_much_of_her_experiences_
	with_y'all_already ;-)

	and yeah, Chris, I'm -real- interested to hear your experience...

	

	i believe in these things and have since i was a kid...
	in large part due to my grandmother, who i am convinced,
	was psychic...

	one of the eerier stories she used to tell was during ww2...
	my unlce was in the navy in the mediterranean and served
	in the african campaign against Rommel...

	one day a sailor who was a friend of my uncle's came to the door
	and introducred himself...   he had been asked to stop in by my 
	uncle...  he wanted her to know he was ok...  she already knew,
	and proceeded to tell he sailor about how my unlces ship had 
	been torpedoed and she was scared at first but soon knew everything
	was ok...  she told him where the ship got hit, the markings on the 
	ship.. described rescue operations and damage to the vessel, everything...
	
	the sailor was appalled...  he wanted to know how my grandmother knew
	so much since the mission was classified and no details had reached home 
	yet...  in fact, when he was rotated home for recovery time from his
	wounds he'd been told to keep quiet cuz the mission was ongoing....
	how did she know, in such detail, what actually went on??????

	she dreamed it...  she dreamed my uncle was in her room telling her the 
	story...  the only thing she got wrong was that it wasn't my uncle's ship
	that got hit...  it was the ship in front of my uncle's and he was on the ship
	rescuing survivors...  she dreamed he was telling her the story of what
	happened to him...  she was actually seeing what he saw it seems...

				da ve

As I've said before, though it's all mystyfying, I truly believe in spiritual
visitations...I feel that my bro-in-law Mark (whom we lost at age 22) is
around quite often...his daughter Taylor was 6 months old when he died...well,
among others, at her 1st b-day party, Taylor was sitting in the living room of
her grandparents house, on the floor, opening presents, and she was very
occupied with a LOT of gifts...

well, in the middle of all this hubub, she just Stops...looks up at the ceiling,
and starts to smile...she keeps looking, we all start to look at each other
like "what is she looking at" then she starts to laugh...then she smiled and
went back to opening her gifts...many people saw this, and I'm absolutely
convinced that Mark was watching his little Tay on her 1st birthday...

Karen says that Mark came to her  in a dream soon after he died, and told her
that he was in a safe place, and that "I'm fine" which was a standard Mark
answer to a lot of things...

Mark's good friend Andrea has had several occurences of which she also feels
that Mark is watching...

non-believers may call them coincidences, but I don't think they are...

2 nights after my grandfather died, I was awake in bed, thinking about him,
this was right after his wake...and this was a quiet night...clear skies, no 
wind, nothing going on...and I heard Him coughing out on my porch...I sat up,
a bit nervous, but I believe it was ol' Joe, saying goodbye to me...

I think there's more to life than meets the eye

Wes

    When I was around 20 I was in a 'band' with a couple of guys
    from my neighborhood. We practiced in the bass player's cellar
    and his parents were pretty cool so we would have parties there
    and play while a bunch of kids drank beer, etc. Eventually I
    moved to New York to go to school and then to New Jersey to
    work. Dave (the bass player) came down with cancer and died.
    I was about 24 when that happened. He had been a good friend of
    mine. My mom says that the night he died she felt a wind blowing
    through the house and could feel Dave's presence; like he was
    lookign for me. She didn't know at the time that he had died.
    A few weeks later I had a dream and Dave was talking to me, 
    telling me how there were too many rules to follow in heaven :-)
    The next day I was at a flea market going through some albums.
    I came across a Mike Bloomfield record. The picture of Bloomfield
    on the cover looked exactly like my friend Dave (eerily so). So
    I bought the album. The first song was called Big C Blues. It
    was about dying of cancer. 

Last year, both of my mother's brothers passed away, one an older brother,
the other a younger brother.  The older brother passed away about a year ago,
and the younger brother passed last fall.  That fall evening, shortly after
my uncle died, my mother called my sister, brother, and I to tell the news.

Shortly afterwards, my sister put her 3 year old daughter to bed (she did
not discuss my uncle's death with her at all, there was no need to).  A little
while afterwards, she heard her daughter talking in her room, as though she
was talking WITH someone.  She was saying "hello! how are you!"  A little
alarmed because this was VERY unusual, my sister went to the bedroom to check
on her.  Her daughter asked her to get her Teddy bear out of the little toy
chair on her shelf (also very unusual for her to ask this).  When asked why,
she answered "because there is a man sitting in it.....he says that everything
is going to be allright."  The toy chair that she was referring to had been
built by my uncle (the one who had died earlier in the year) for my mother
when she was a little girl.

It is not clear which of my uncles was sitting in that chair.....doesn't
really matter, I'm sure it was one of them.

Later that week, my sister went to the library with her daughter, who picked
out a book from the children's book section, and handed it to my sister,
saying, "Here Mommy, you need to read this."  It was titled "Children and
Ghosts."

I thought this was wicked freakin' cool when my mom told me about it!!!

When my grandfather died years ago, my mother was at the hospital, and the
doctor informed her about it just minutes after he passed.  As the doctor
was telling her, she said that she clearly felt my grandfather's spirit flow
through her, in an energizing sort of way.  His presence was very strong.

Oh, there is so much more than meets the eye out there......isn't that great?

Unfortunately, I am not as susceptable to psychic experiences as my mother,
sister, and niece seem to be.  I've had funky dreams that definitely gave me
signals and/or direction in my life, but no spirits that I recall personnally.

Hogan

    this has got to be one of the coolest notes started in Grateful in a
    LONG time!!
    rfb

Yeah, and I don't think we've heard Chris's experience yet???  Ah, Mr. LeBlanc,
would you care to share your snack with us?  

:)

On April 4, 1992, my Dad died suddenly and unexpectedly of a massive
heart attack.  I almost lost him with some personal business
unfinished, but the weekend before he died, we spoke at length over
the phone, resolving a rift that had endured since Christmas.  In
fact, he happened to speak to all five of his kids within the week
before his death, which in itself is quite unusual.

Now, in my dreams, I speak with him regularly.  At first, they were
more like recollections of the past, flashbacks in which I was not
conscious of the fact that he is actually dead.  These were
frightening and depressing events, but over time that changed.  In
the past year or so, though, they're actually new conversations. 
There have been some hard times over the past year or two, and having
his support has been a real benefit.  We've had a lot to talk about.

Of course, I can also see the influence of his sense of humor on my
life too - so when things fall apart on me that I probably should
have known wouldn't work in the first place, and he would have been
the first to say, "I told you so", my immediate reaction is, "That's
not funny, Dad."  I'm still learning from him.

I still miss him, but in some ways, he's still here, in me.

tim

	some of these stories!  I just get -chills- reading them...

	I especially am interested in the ones that Hogan and Wes put in 
	about their very young nieces talking to and obviously being able 
	to see these spirits.  It seems to add some credence to my personal
	theory about the incarnation of the soul into the body (I -did-
	say personal!) - from observing my own children, I have come to
	believe that it takes some time before a child is truly human
	or truly of this world - it just seems to me that I am in the
	presence of an "angel" so-to-speak whenever I am with a newborn.
	It is almost analogous to the slow way in which a baby starts
	being able to control their own body - when they first can hold
	up their head, not flail their arms in reaction to anything that
	scares them, can hold something in their fingers, how they first
	roll, then pull themselves up, then crawl, then walk.  It's like
	the ability to control moves outward from the trunk down the 
	appendages.  This visible coming-into-the-body seems, to me, to 
	symbolize the soul also coming into the human body and leaving the 
	spirit world.  Even up to the first years of school - there are 
	still times when I sense that they are not "all here" - that they 
	are still in another dimension sometimes.  Eventually, they do come 
	"down to earth" and are then truly human, and the spirit world 
	becomes completely invisible to them unless they now make a conscious 
	effort to be aware of it.

	keep these stories coming - I am loving this!

	Debess

    sorry i could not post my experience yesterday, I was actually working!
    :^)
    My aunt Ellen and Uncle Bruce went in with another couple, Mariyln and
    John, to buy a large Victorian brick house in Hartland Vermont..If
    anyone gets to the the f4 corners of Hartland center, look up onthe
    hill and you will see this ENORMOUS mansion on a couple
    acres..Anyways, Bruce and Ellen and the other couple invested in it,
    fixed it up and began renting it as a summer/winter vacation home, and
    it brought grate success and word spread about the "Hatch Mansion"
    People in town never bothered the place  much as they thought it
    was Mafia owned.,....Marilyn is a little eccentric and owns a limo to
    cart her numerous dogs around in, and the vermonters thought that some
    big Capo owned the joint...Bruce overheard a couple of townies talking
    about the place one day in the market..
    The house was owned for generations by the Hatch family..the last Hatch
    people to live there were a father, mother and son, Marvin, who was an
    accomplished concert pianist.  Word has it that the father died in one 
    bedroom from a long illness and the mother shortly thereafter...
    Marvin, according to the caretaker who lived in a shack at the end of
    the driveway, moved into the downstairs foyer where the large fireplace
    was...years later, the people in town lost sight of the recluse and it
    turns out he died in this one room that had become his self induced
    prison...trash to the ceilings and a decayed corpse were all that was
    left...
    So the state emptied the house out and auctioned it all off..
    The caretaker said sometimes he heard piano music coming from the house
    when it was vacant :^o
    
    Enter Uncle Bruce and Aunt Ellen...
    the stories were always told about the strange goings on..The phone
    call to cousin Liam telling him to leave..when the number was
    unpublished...Marilyn's claim of a "visit" by Marvin in the dead of
    night.Sounds and bumps in the middle of the night...One family who
    stayed there packed up in the middle of the night when the daughter,
    who was sleeping in one of the master bedrooms heard footsteps on the
    staircase to her room and felt a tug on her sheets only to turn the
    lights on and see an open door.... and empty room
    
    Well my ex girlfriend and I went up leaf peeping in October and Uncle
    Bruce and Aunt Ellen offered us the place...We got there saturday
    morning about noon and decided to take a nap so we crashed in the other
    masterbedroom, Bruce and Ellen's
    I awoke to the sounds of the chairs being dragged across the floor in
    the kitchen/foyer where Marvin died....Footsteps clear as day were
    coming up the stairs so i jostled my ex and she woke up as they
    approached..
    I can't explain the look on her face at that time..I jumped out of
    bed, opened the door to the stairway foyer and they stopped...
    
    I went downstairs looking for a viable explanation..i.e. coons, window
    open, door latch unhooked etc only to find every thing locked up and
    shut tight as a drum.....
    
    and the chairs were back in their original places.....
    
    it was then i realized that maybe Marvin was peeping at the leaaf
    peepers that weekend...
    :^)
    
    

    re .303
    
    Ayuh, looks like we bagged a couple a'flatlandahs with the dead
    pee-anist story.  :-)
    
    There's a great book called "Mischief in the Mountains" which is full
    of New England ghost stories and other strange goings-on.  I don't
    believe in anything except death, taxes, and the pursuit of fun.
    
    Jamie

    ide?
    jamie ide of the Hartland Vermont ides?
    :^)
    
    what cracked me up was that the townies thought Bruce was Bruce"You
    sleep with the fishes" Slaney
     :^)

    hey i  know that area - Hartland Four Corners.  big ol' house too.
    
    most of you know me as an accomplished atheist.  having said that I
    will add that I also believe there are many things we just can't
    explain.  I like it that way.
    
    

    you don't have to believe in god to believe in spirits...
    
    

Amen Debess..so to speak...it's easy to blur the line between religion and
spirituality...in my book, completely different things...

this is a cool thread

    
    that's right about believing in spirits and gods.  too often people
    tie them together 

    the study of the supernatural can be classified as a science.....
    
    religion?
    
    doesn't seem to be much science in the adam/eve/apple gig to me...so
    yes they are separate entities

>   the study of the supernatural can be classified as a science.....

Only if that study is performed scientifically...otherwise it can
be dismissed as conjecture, hearsay, and opinion.
    
>   religion?
>   
>   doesn't seem to be much science in the adam/eve/apple gig to me...so
>   yes they are separate entities

Well, religion seems to be a common (though not universal) human response
to dealing with life and the real world, so some would argue that we (as
a species) have a biological disposition to it...however, studying the
different approaches people take is more of a humanist field, I'd say.

Dan

    
    Grandpa Jewell used to own half of Hartland.....now half of 
    Hartland owns us!  Beautiful town of hardwoods with fantastic 
    views of Ascutney...just recently became exploited by the 
    ruthless and money hungry.  Didn't have power on the north 40 til 
    1982...and there's nothing like a drink (or two or three or four) 
    at Skunk Hollow Tavern.
    
    Funny, just yesterday I found a picture of ol Gramps using the old 
    1940 John Deer tractor with a belt attachment to split firewood up 
    on the North 40.  That thing could sickle the fields, split wood, 
    pull a cow out of the mud, and backfire louder than a cannon all at 
    once.
    
    As for the supernatural...until the day I shake hands with Casper I 
    prefer to avoid any of these high-clarivoiance situations.  

	hey deano - welcome back - how was your vacation?  we missed
	ya camping!

	Debess

�        As for the supernatural...
    
    IMO, "supernatural" is just science's way of saying "we don't
    know how to measure that."
    
    "extra-scientific" might be a good term, without all the
    negative connotations of "supernatural."
    
    
    fwiw, I heard about a book written by a woman who had a heart
    transplant, and who experienced, after surgery, cravings for  
    things she had craved before surgery, such as hotdogs and beer.
    She also had dreams about cars.
    She did some research, and found that the heart in her body had 
    previously resided in the body of a young man.
    She did further research, and learned that her experiences were not
    unique, but that other transplant patients had similarly strange
    experiences.
    
    /b 

    
    Thanks Debess.  It's good to be back...well, er um...it's good to be 
    back in here at least.  :-}
    
    Vacation was great.  Luckly, I cancelled my ValueJet tix 2 weeks
    beforehand and booked on another carrier...saved me the hassle of a 
    flight anxiety disorder.  
    
    Air temps in Myrtle Beach averaged around 90 and water temps weren't
    much below that.  Life is very rough when you can't decide whether to 
    go to the beach, the water park, or the adult entertainment joint! ;-)
    
    Mom's ok...she was hospitalized again due to a bad chemo reaction but
    was sent back home on the day that I arrived...she improved steadily with
    each day I was there.  

    glad to hear yer mom is doin better, deano..
    
    rfb

>    ...she improved steadily with each day I was there.  

	the healing power of Love :-)

	deanne-o,
	
	for some reason, reply .312 really cracked me up.  :-)
	
	ol Gramps .. on the North 40 ...
	pullin a cow out of the mud ...
	on a John Deer backfirin' like a cannon
	
	you old hick, you.
	
	;-)  
	
	

    re .305
    
    We went south to Hartland for the winters.  :-)
    
    I've heard a couple of strange stories about the Bradford area.  The
    most memorable was about a man who was tarred, feathered, and murdered
    one night.  Everyone in town knew who did it but it's still unsolved
    'cause nobody liked the guy.
    
    Then there was the Bedell covered bridge which was lovingly
    reconstructed using traditional tools and carpentry.  Just a few weeks
    after it was finished it was swept downstream by a storm.
    
    Jamie

    
    >the healing power of Love :-)
    
    	Yes, I do believe in that. :-)

welp, i had an innerstin' evening last night, though not for the reasons
i'd hoped...  but that's another story...

had a visitor (well, actually 3 but only one is in this particular story)
stop in...  Chriso, Christina's step dad...  had a few things to talk to
him about..

i told him that a lot of people were sending vibes to Christina lately
from here...  he smiled and told me that the last couple of days have 
actually been very good ones for her!  we both wondered just how
much some caring vibes from hippies might have had to do with it... :^)
fwiw, we both believe in that sort of thing though Christina and her Mom
don't especially hold much by it...

then i told him about how we were also discussing spirits of loved ones
communicating with us, ghost stories etc...  after a brief shocked pause,
Chris burst out laughing!!!  you see, their house has been discussing this
a lot lately too...  due to one rather interesting development...

it seems that Christina is being visited by an "angel"... (her words)

interestingly enough, Christina's Mom had been having a particularly hard 
day and was having her own little conversation with god...  Mom was pretty
pissed at the great one and telling it so...  shortly after saying that it's hard
to believe a benevolent god would let a little kid suffer like this and claiming
that without some sort of sign it would be hard for her to continue to subscribe
to the theory (uh, she used much stronger, explicit language :^), Mom heard 
Christina talking with someone in her bedroom...  when she went to see what 
was up, Christina said she was just "talking with the angel" who was apparently
still in the room!  it freaked Mom right out!  :^)

"the angel" has appeared now three or four times...  each time it is consistant
in appearance, voice, tone, etc...  it seems to be genderless, or at least Christina
doesn't report it being male or female and can't say which it is...  it's beautiful to
look at though, and is bright and shining...  when it appears, it's attitude is that
of a concerned friend...  it has asked her "how are you?" and "are you scared?"
(amazingly she doesn't seem to be any more) and "do you believe everything
is going to be alright?"   Christina is the only one that sees or hears the angel,
and when it leaves, she always feels better...  more relaxed and peaceful...

pretty amazing to me, given what we've been discussing lately...


now, mind you, Chris and i also discussed the fact that this poor kid is getting
hefty  doses of morphine every day to ease her pain...  this isn't the first time
that i've known of someone on opiates to converse with an angel either... (the
Black Crow's Song "She Talks With Angels" also comes to mind")  still, when
the angel comes, Christina feels better, more at peace with herself and what's 
coming...

who am i to say it's not real???  it's most certainly happening for her...
and if i believe in Chemo Girl, why not her angel??

				da ve

    Joseph Campbell (of Power of Myth fame) reported that end-of-life
    out-of-body-experiences (OOBEs) were common throughout many cultures,
    and that the "vision" seen generally correlated with the religious
    myths believed by the one having the experience.
    
    Other studies have tried to debunk the "supernatural" explanation of
    [some of these] these experiences by claiming that these 
    visions/experience are physiological in nature, brought on by a 
    [predictable] state of body chemistry.
    
    whatever that means...
    
    /b

	da ve,

	Wow.... this story/thread gets more incredible every day.
	Christina is an Angel if you ask me. 


	Toby

    it is kinda weird how most of the notes here on the subject involve
    younger folks.....
    
    

rambles...let Science implode on itself :)))  who needs an explanation?  I've
heard this line that as we approach death, our minds are hallucinating, and
the "spirits/angels" etc that we see are a result of the brain playing trix
(for lack of a better word) on us...why does Everything have to have a 
scientific explanation for it?  I say go with the BELIEF, don't doubt it...we
will all find  out in our own way...someday...

WO

    re;
    as we approach death, our minds are hallucinating,
    
    and what's rong wit dat??
    
    re; Debess and her note about babies not becoming "real Humans" until
    they "learn" to assemilate all the crap in this world (Sorry for the
    para-phrasing) but contained in T. Wolfs "Electric Acid Koolaid Test"
    as well as in medical studies (or so I've heard) is the theory that a
    newborns "filter" system for the brain, the medulla-oblogotta ????
    isn't fully developed at birth...so *ALL KINDS* of sensary information
    is flooding into this little brain. The theory is (was?) that this is
    what happens when one ingests certain materials that we won't condone
    here...the brains sensary filter system is interupted so that
    information we would normally filter out as "unimportant" is now "paid
    attention to"..like that soft glow around the streetlight...or the
    colors on the wings of that drab DAMNED MILLER MOTH!!! or how the
    yellow lichens seem to grow around the orange and red lichens instead
    of intermingleing........
    
    %^)
    
    
    
    
    
    

nuthin particularly wrong with NDH's  near-death-hallucinations :)  but when
"Science" uses it to dispel any possible spiritual visitations etc. I just
kinda frown...They want proof all the time, well prove that spirits DOn't
exist...

Can they disprove it?

WO

    IMO, one problem with relying on beliefs, especially beliefs
    having to do with god, is that there are a lot of concommitant
    beliefs about devils and self-worth "I am not worthy in the eyes
    of the lord," etc...
    
    So, depending on [some external force, such as "god"] to perform healing
    has many potential conflicts...  It's starting to become accepted
    that there is a very powerful mind-body connection...   I personally
    think it's very exciting and empowering to now that the powers are
    "really" within us, and not "out there."
    
    I'm not suggesting "hallucinations," are good or bad per se, they
    are just different perceptions of the reflections on the wall
    of Plato's cave.   I've stated elsewhere in here that there are
    studies that confirm the power of "remote prayer;"  if we can
    better understand the correlations between our intentions and
    "external" events, then we have a much better chance of helping
    people such as Christina...
    
    fwiw/b 

    RE:
    then we have a much better chance of helping people like Cristina...
    
    very good note and ending line, Bruce.
    
    rfb

	i'm whicha, /b
	
	*nothing* exists outside my mind/body.
	there is no "they" which can provide labels
	

	rfb...  your note a ways back got me thinking and smiling...
	i've had a few intresting experiences with multi-colored
	lichens myself...  :^)

	as for the angels, if they're real for her, they're real for me...

	i believe...  in almost everything... :^)

				da ve

  Sorta kinda related to mixing together spirits and gods...
  
  (and I can't resist the argument about whether the locus of reality is
  inside or outside an individual's mind/body...)
  
  My 13-year-old son was required (by his mom) to go to church until he was
  11, and misses no opportunity to proclaim that the Biblical conception of
  "God" is ridiculous...
  
  So I'm perenially pointing out to him that... 

  (a) Many church members would privately tend to agree, but attend for
      non-religious reasons -- usually social [family, friends] and/or
      emotional [loneliness would absolutely head this list].

      (not to mention his ex-church throws a, er, helluva party -- not many
      churches I know of stage all-night poker, tapes, & beer blowouts on
      their "retreats".  Too bad they stop inviting you if you never
      actually worship...)

      Anyway, I can never get too down on churches, since they bring people
      together, and generally do seem to put their money & time where their
      mouths are as far as helping the down & out.  It's the family of
      humanity thing again...  Churches can't be reduced to their dogmas
      about god(s).

  (b) People are forever confusing churches, or scriptures, or priesthoods,
      with the spiritual conceptions (spirits and gods) they ritualize...
      
      My favorite notion of "God" is a mathematical one.  Why not define
      "God" as a symbol equal to the sum of all points in space across all
      points in time...  The largest integral.  All there is (was, will be).
      Whatever.

      This has several promising uses as a purely mathematical conception,
      and also happens to tie into current notions of Big Bang etc.  Though
      if you're into pure math (like my son), you probably could care less
      about incidental details like physical reality...

      [To the extent you buy it, a persistent notion in citadels of reason
      is that everything-there-is originated in a single point of infinite
      density and compactness that exploded into space (rapidly expanding,
      for now) and time (no longer unified in a single point but stretched
      into many of what Monsieur Bob says "we seem to capture [in] a
      movement of a hand").

      God, the mathematical symbol I just invented and plan to trademark, is
      (was) that point.  And maybe will be again, or perhaps is forever
      undulating between unity and fracture.  Finally, a god that can
      undulate...  The supreme Elvis.]
    
      Anyway, to think about the sum of everything ("God(tm)"=) is to realize
      how tiny humans are, compared to everything there is (even just on
      earth).  Except to each other, we are indistinct from grains of sand.
      If a safe falls on our collective heads tomorrow, the overall history
      of everything (even of earth, considered over the long haul) won't be
      affected in the slightest.

      I thought the math-ness and non-humancentricity of this supreme-integral
      business would appeal to my son, but basically all he bought was that
      it didn't require attending church.
      
      Next, I take him stargazing...    8)
      
  (c) Perception is not reality.     (Seriously. No shit. IMO.)
  
      I have no reason to perenially inflict this truth on my son, except I
      once saw the phrase "Perception is reality" as a marketing manager's
      personal name, and quipped to her that I pictured such a phrase on a
      banner over the gates of hell.  The next time she kidded me about it,
      I did a crude rendering on a cocktail napkin (what Randy Newman would
      call a pinhead's conception of the Gates of Hell -- castle, banner,
      billboards, corporate emblems, spokesmodels, Mickey 'n the gang, ...)

      And incidentally, if you haven't yet *had* a chance to visit the
      FleetCenter...
      
      Anyway, here's what get's my mouth a-frothin'.  (All IMO of course.)

      Well sure, perception might be all we ever know of reality.  If ya
      want to limit yourself that way.  But ya gotta believe (and I think
      humans intrinsically do, whether we think we do or not) that the locus
      of reality is outside one's own city limits.  If we never existed, or
      if we manage someday to take a collective long walk off a short dock,
      the universe & reality will skip merrily along, probably hand in hand,
      without us.

      It's really neither here nor there, except for the amount of evil &
      stupidity (& wing-ding marketing) that has thrived on the sure sense
      that individual human perception is all that's real...

      Modern physics unfortunately is reviving this b.s. ("b" in this case
      standing for centuries-dead philosopher Bishop Berkeley).

      If only I coulda believed his theory, I coulda blown off the class
      that assigned me to read about it.  I really tried.  Ah well.  It's
      one of those theories where, well yeah, you can't disprove it, because
      you can't, strictly speaking, disprove anything, but...
      
      All someone has to do is walk up to you, hold up their finger, and say
      "Deny this!"  And they've got you.  At that moment, you know you are
      part of a larger world, and that the locus is outside yourself.  You
      might glimpse "it" only through perception, but whatever "it" is, is
      out there, not in you.  You have to do some real fancy theorizing, as
      indeed Berkeley did, to talk yourself out of what you really know....

  Well, on rereading, item (c) is pretty contentious...  Sorry about that.
  If nothing else, you might be moved to pity my son...   - JayC.

    i like that mathematical symbol thing
    can we call him/her/whatever one wishes to call it
    
    !@#$*&-
    "The God formerly known as God"

�      Modern physics unfortunately is reviving this b.s. ("b" in this case
�      standing for centuries-dead philosopher Bishop Berkeley).
    
    I'm not sure what your reference is; your antecedent is way unclear.
    
    But what I think you're quibbling about is that current research
    indicates that you cannot measure the universe without altering it...
    which is not the same thing as "perception is reality."
    
    
    And the math thing is nice, but it's only a *model,* and as you
    point out, the map (model) is not the territory.
    
    Physicist/mathemeticians are the first to point out that regardless
    of how cool the math (of quantum physics is), [science] has 
    absolutely no idea how to translate the math into "reality."
    
    "Big bang" is a cool model, and there seems to be some physical
    evidence (as we interpret it) to support the theory, but it does
    pose some rather obvious question...  Our common-sense understanding of
    "reality" cannot support the idea of something existing without
    a creator, of infinity, or even of bounds (what's on the other
    side?)...
    
    Which is why people or go to church.  or meditate.   or take drugs.
    
    your mileage may vary.
    
    
    /bruce

>    But what I think you're quibbling about is that current research
>    indicates that you cannot measure the universe without altering it...

  Yep - you see this cited as the uncertainty principle [Heisenberg's,
  right?], although these days it seems like common sense...
  You can't measure (or even observe [bounce light off of]) the universe
  without altering it.
  
>    which is not the same thing as "perception is reality."

  No argument...  Maybe what I shoulda said is, "Perception is all we know
  of reality."  I just think the "all we know of" part is important to
  include, that's all.  That Berkeley guy really tried to argue that reality
  was gated by perception (which is really convenient if you want to create
  the universe in your own image and not be responsible to anything outside
  yourself...)
  
  Sorry if I sprung a potential rathole -- no way do I expect anyone else's
  perspectives or semantics to line up with mine (basically the whole thing
  was a joke opp to me).

  Yeah, it's only a model, and the "wheel keeps turning" regardless...
    - JayC.

�  Sorry if I sprung a potential rathole 
    
    But that's where all the *interesting* stuff happens...
    
    We *do* create the universe in our own image...  we have no other 
    models...   It's science's task to evaluate what's valid in our model
    at any given time, and to refine (or replace [the dreaded "paradigm
    shift"]) the model based on the evidence.  Something that makes
    science's task more difficult is that all our tools and models
    *are* based on our self-image...  so lots of evidence is
    "invisible" or ignored...
    
    And, in many cases, perception is as good as reality...
    
    /b

    just say NO to reality

    why dwell on it when we try to escape it all the time?

�    why dwell on it when we try to escape it all the time?
    
    you can run, but....

    Yes, Heisenberg (which leads to a rare opportunity for physics
    graffiti, as in "Heisenberg was here, probably").
    
    The idea of a marketing type using the motto "Perception is reality"
    seems entirely consistant to me. After all, a marketroid's job is to
    alter your perception to match whatever chunk of reality they have
    dreamed up. It would be easier if they'd just share...
    
    gary

	why is it when I read JayC's reply, why is it that I think
	of Coz and her futon? ;-)

	good stuff JayC!

	did you ever read "The Tao of Physics" - talks about how
	religion and science are coming from opposite ends of the
	spectrum, but as more and more is discovered with science,
	the two are actually diverging...

	Debess

	

	i meant CONverging...or, maybe, undulating ;-)

    
    
    Reality is for people who can't handle drugs.
    
    

    
     Hey pretty good drumming there SteveO .. I liked EWB.
    
     where ya playing next?
    
    Cathy

	Debess, i had a thought or three of Coz and her futon too... :^)


				da ve

	this perception vs. reality - inside-you vs outside-you stuff
	from yesterday has been sitting in my mind.

	in one way I agree with JayC that the locus of reality is
	outside you...but on the other hand ;-), we have been so
	indoctrinated by our culture that our perception of reality
	is skewed.  And, in that way, the locus of reality -is- inside you. 
	(and he was actually probaby saying that anyways...but to 
	clarify for myself and just to blab away ;-)...

	Like, for an example, there was a time when everyone -knew-
	that the earth was the center of the universe.  And there
	was a time when everyone -knew- that the earth was flat.
	The way people from those civilizations perceived reality was 
	different than how we perceive it, just because of where they were 
	at in the evolution of thinking.

	Without going back in time, even, there are different perceptions
	of reality based on the culture you are brought up in.

	Trying to think of an example - this comes to mind - firewalkers.
	The reality is that fire burns.  That's our reality.  But, someone
	brought up in a culture that knows the power of mind over matter,
	and believes that fire doesn't -necessarily- burn - they have a 
	different reality.	

	and then there's us, or some of us, who sometimes have reality 
	turned upside down by various "experiences"...there is an Eastern
	way of thinking that there is no past, there is no future, there
	is only this moment, and this moment, and this moment, now, the 
	present.  Soooooo, maybe the reality we experience in different,
	shall we say, expanded states, maybe that -is- reality.  Maybe
	perception -is- reality.  Or, maybe, as I chose to think, we
	have experienced a gateway into a reality we don't normally 
	perceive, but that -is- there nonetheless.

	Reality is.  What we perceive of reality is personal, cultural,
	everchanging as we grow and experience new things and learn new
	things.  Is reality ever really experienced by -anyone-?

	Debess

    there is some evidence that the holographic model applies
    to the universe...   
    
    /b

>    there is some evidence that the holographic model applies
>    to the universe...   

yabbut there's even more evidence that the Dilbert model applies to
the universe....

;-)

�  >    there is some evidence that the holographic model applies
�  >    to the universe...   

�  yabbut there's even more evidence that the Dilbert model applies to
�  the universe....
    
    the two are not mutually exclusive...

    we'd *ALL* be better off if the barnes model of the universe
    applied...but that only applies to me...but i'll share!  %^)
    
    rfb_quantum fizz-ass

    hey buddy...
    
    got any spare 100s?
    
    ;-)

	the Barnes model???  

	"life is a beer... drink it up!"  :^)

	is that it?

heavy stuff kidz    :)

I am, I think I am, therefore I am...I think

		Cogito Ergo Zoom

	Oh, wait a second, that's the Little Americas Cup winner

	Multihulls are real!, But so is the hole I put in the starboard bow :-(

	
	This means I really need to believe in yesterday, And tomorrow.

	Geoff

>	But so is the hole I put in the starboard bow :-(

I once saw a BlueJay jibe right in front of a 110 that was lining up
for its start...nice neat triangular hole punched in the BlueJay's bow.

Dan

    does a 90 or a 100 put a smaller hole that a 110 min tape???

Ok, i have a survey question.


you find a wallet.
it has ID in it, say, driver's license w/ an address.
it is also stacked w/ cash, say $200.00
and credit cards.

what do you do?

0) send it to the owner, complete

1) send it to the owner, less the amount for postage and insurance, complete

2) send it to the owner, w/o the money

3) send it to the owner, less some amount (say $20) for a "reward".

4) send it, but take the cred cahds and buy a new stereo (all NAK stuff!)

5) send it back, but, fill your gas tank up w/ his credit cahd

6) max out the cred cahds, spend the cash, and burn the rest of the
wallet.

7) give it to the cops to deal with.

8) other?

now, be honest with your response and say why you'd do what you'd
do.

everyone's found at least one wallet in their lifetime (ok, maybe not
everyone), so perhaps you can relate this survey question to your
vbery own experience.

Well a 110 is shaped kinda like a big hardness tester tip. And it's built like a
house frame. I'm probaably more surprised it didn't go right through to the
other side. 

	Re: rfb, I bet a 110 would hole a 470, but not the other way. So maybe a
90 will hole a 100, but a 100 won't hurt the 90. 



	Now what if a 110 met a 210? The more fun question is which would be
faster. Back to multihulls.

	Geoff

    re: wallet:
    
    try to call the person.
    
    then, mail it back, insured, intact.

	I'd send it to the owner complete...
	I might try to call this person 1st if they were "locals"
	I'd be tempted to spend the $$$ though but I wouldn't.
	I'd hope someone would do the same for me.

	on a side note

	I found a $20 in a driveway in my neighborhood while walking
	my son to the store. I knocked on the owners door and told
	him I found it in his driveway.

	20-20 or prime time had a show on lost wallets	and were
	taping people with planted wallets. it was pretty sad as
	most people took the money. One lady didn't even break stride
	picked up the wallet and kept on truckin...

	Toby

    i'd want to call the guy right away, local or not (how many wallets
    you gonna find from singapore? ;-), so s/he doesn't needlessly
    cancel credit cards and worry.

    do what bruce said......karma and all that stuff, ya know...
    
    
    rfb

    Re: Wallet                                                        
    
    I'd look their phone number up and call the person.  If he/she
    has an unlisted number, I'd send it to the owner, without touching
    anything in the wallet (no matter how much $$ was in it).  I'd 
    then send it to owner in a padded envelope.  I don't think I would 
    insure it though, unless there was more than $500 in the wallet.
    
    I am a firm believer of karma, and being honest can only bring
    good karmic vibes back to yourself.  I also have an extremely
    guilty conscience and I don't think I could take any money from 
    it without feeling like I was cursing myself.
    
    I have been on the other side of this (dropped my wallet).  The
    guy who found it looked my number up and called me.  He said
    that the credit cards and my license were scattered across
    a parking lot, but there was no wallet and no money (there was only
    $20 in it anyway).  I picked it up from him and sent him some good
    vibes.  I don't think he was lying about the wallet and money.
    But it felt really good knowing there were still honest people out
    there who would go through the hassle of contacting you and returning
    it to you.  It really saved me from a ton of hassle (going to the DMV
    for a duplicate license and halting my credit card accounts, etc.) 

    fwiw, I insure almost every package I send, regardless of actual
    dollar value.  It makes the PO less likely to lose it.

    over the past 5 years John has found 3 wallets .. all with cash and
    cards in them.  he's taken each to the local police station without
    taking a reward...but has left his name and number in case anyone felt
    generous.  no one has ever responded.  the last  one he found was a 
    few days before xmas last year and it had hundreds of dollars in it.
    
    waiting for the karma to kick in 
    
    now if we were to find a paper bag of money on the side of the road
    ....  :-) 
    
    

    
    
    Found a wallet once(no $200.00in it) There was some money but never did
    count it or check to see if there where credit cards. This was about
    1/2 block from my house and I was on my way to work on the motorcycle.
    I just stuck it in a saddle bag and looked at it when I got home. It
    belonged to a 17-18 year old lady, all we did was call the person and
    told them we found the wallet and they came by and picked it up,
    offered us $20.00 as a reward which we declined, we just asked if the
    lady was ok!
    
    I would do the same thing again no matter how much money was in it, I
    am able to feed,house and take care of myself without taking advantage
    of somelse's bad luck!
    
    Divide Dave

    
    re:365
    
     If you have had no misfortune since you returned the wallets the karma
    has already kicked in...
    
    Divide

	WHAT wallet?!?
	WHAT cash?!?
	
	
	
	;-)
	

    0) return the wallet intact, phone call if possible, drop off at house
    if possible, mail or police station otherwise (well, a police station 
    might be pushing it ;-)  I came across a wallet once, when I was living
    in Marblehead, and followed that practice.  Can't remember what
    was in the wallet, or if I even bothered looking for much more than
    a name and phone number.  Regardless of karma, guilt is something I
    tend to avoid.  And making a person's day is reward enough in itself.
    AMy has lost her wallet about 2 or 3 times, and I think maybe once
    part of it came back (or more likely was found under the sofa ;-)
    Major hassle cancelling and renewing everything.
    
    I've even returned loose bills to people when it was relatively
    easy to identify who it came from.  But on a slightly different 
    variation, once I had an ATM machine (Baybanks) give me an extra
    20 bucks, and I kept that one without reporting it.  Legally 
    probably more problematical, but it didn't feel like I was 
    doing dirt to another person directly.  Maybe someday I'll
    pay it back, and then again...
    
    PeterT

    NOW THAT;S FUNNY....ATM giving an extra 20....that's what they get for
    pasting the 20's together like they do anyway!
    
    rfb
    

	sometimes, the person before you grabbed their withdrawl and
	didn't count it, leaving a 20 in the tray. happened to me once.
	now i count my money just to be sure. those machines rarely make
	a mistake. 

Rae and I found a purse once and just brought it home and called her up.  
She lived over Debess' way in Lyndeborough...very grateful.   

Also on a number of occasions I've walked up to an ATM where it was
asking "would you like another transaction....".  

What about "one man gathers what another man spills"?  That sounds like
the opposite or all of our replies....

bob

re: Wallet...call 'em, or send it back...keep the $$$ and treat the Decheads
to some brewz...

Only kidding...I would hope that someone would do the same for me, I'd send
ALL Of it back...I happened to see that Dateline bit on planting "lost" wallets,
I think only 1 couple kept it, most everyone turned it back in, usually with
$$$ intact...they were surprised by a few folks, including a group of younger
doods who looked like they'ds keep it, but did call...

Honesty is Still the best policy

WO

    re; one man gathers what another man spills
    
    
    
    that's *SPILLS*, not *LOST*
    
    
    rfb

                     <<< Note 449.374 by SPECXN::BARNES >>>

    re; one man gathers what another man spills
    that's *SPILLS*, not *LOST*
    
ahhh,  right you are....

thank you rfb,
signed,
grasshopper

    Call and try to contact the owner; otherwise, send it back to the
    owner, complete (or minus the 3 bucks to send it whatever).

    I've found a couple of wallets and purses, each time except one
    succeeding in calling the person who promptly came and picked it up.    
    One time without even a thank you, but the karma is worth it ;-)

    The one time I couldn't contact the person, I think I was in a hurry
    or something, I just dropped it into a mailbox.

    /Ken

    take the money....
    throw a huge blow out..
    
    go on a shopping spree and max out all credit cards including the phone
    card by calling a 1 900 number on the island of Fiji..
    
    just a thought...
    
    
    
    

    
     I'd call the person if I could and have them pick up the
     wallet. If that did'nt work I'd drop it off at the nearest
     police station for them to deal with.
    
     Once when I was in college I packed the car at home to go
     off to school and left my purse on the car.  A few hours later
     police went to my Mom's house and asked one of my siblings if
     they might guess why they were there (my license had that address
     on it).  One brother guessed, 'I don't know something my
     brother did??.  I got my purse back but I thought it was funny
     my brothers were scurring around trying to hide from the cops
     at the door, who were just trying to return my purse.
                  

I've never found a wallet but if I did I'd call the owner and return it. 
If it was a woman maybe I'd try to get a dinner date :-)

Luckily I've never lost my wallet.

A friend of mine left his wallet on a table in the chinese restaurant
outside the Great Woods entrance.  He cancelled all his cards, then about a
week later the Norton police called him up and said they had his wallet. 
There was no cash in it.

adam

    take the $$$ and buy some beer for the fool moon party...
    
    call the owner and invite him/her...

    
    I've found a couple wallets, returned them in full integrity wasting
    gas money and time.  Never been offered a reward.  I know if I lost my
    wallet I would give the person who found it all the cash inside
    considering all the huge credit card hassles, license renewal hassles
    and phone card hassles...it's well worth whatever cash is there. 
    
    From now on I'll pocket 10-20 bucks, buy beers, and return it in the
    mail without return address.  I'd never give a wallet to someone else
    to return.  

	I think personally that the pictures in my wallet
	are more valuble than any cash in it. Of course that's
	easy to say 'cause I never have any $$ in it  8-)
	

	Toby

  RE: wallet.  I think I'd enter a note in GRATEFUL asking for advice, and
  seize on the reply that best fit my personal situational ethics...
  
  Might also comb the replies looking for other wallets I could claim...
    8)       - JayC.

Spend the money on a big going away party for myself.
Use the credit cards to buy a new wardrobe.
Use the id and credit cards to apply for a loan to buy an Acura NSX-T.
Leave the country.  Probably for Vancouver.

;-)

Actually, call the poor soul, tell her not to worry, the wallet's in the
mail (and I'll still respect her in the morning)...

tim

    funny, this thread...a friend of ours lost a bank pouch over the
    weekend...$400.00, wallet, credit cards...not to be seen yet (and
    probably won't be) I told them it was bad karma for having crossed the
    picket lines at the local grocery store that is on strike...%^)
    man, did her husband give her a rash of sh*t!!
    
    
    rb

	while getting lost in Manchester looking for LeBlanc's party...
	looking for LIBERTY st., was wondering how many of the rest of
	us live on a street with a Dead song title in it?

	I do: (Fire on the) MOUNTAIN Rd.

    
    So JC - did you get all the virtuous answers you were hoping for and
    why did you ask?
    
    

my story:

i found a wallet while skiing earlier this season.  i was cranking
on an excellent line of bumps, and found myself getting tired so i
jammed a turn to stop.  look down, wallet in the snow, ID, cred cards,etc
all over the mogul and in the trough.  i gathered everything up i could
find and tossed it in my pocket.  it was a high traffic area so i didn't
wanna hang around checking it out right there 'cuz i feared getting hit
by another skier.  so, up the lift i go. ..  i check it out, loaded w/
cash.  didn't count it, but i'd guess 200, maybe 300. this was at
killington on outer limits (near the top), the wallet was from some dude
in NJ.  no doubt a vacationer.  deb was off skiiing by herself so i
waited and wanted to get her advice on what to do.  i was torn between
turning it in at the ski lodge or sending it to the owner.  i was
uncomfortable w/ trusting the information kiosk guy w/ that amount of
cash... before turning it in, deb went up and asked if anyone was looking
for a wallet, and sure enough, someone was, they were ont he slope looking
for it.  so, i decided (it was a friday) to give it to the info kiosk
guy... he was an older gent and he didn't even open the wallet up, instead,
put it in a plastic bag and sealed it.  i walked away and that was
it. i did not take any money, cards or anything.  to this day, i still
don't know if the owner got it, most likely, yes he did.

why i asked this?

i debated with someone over the exact question i asked in here: what would
you do?  so, i thought it would be a fun questoin for the poll note.


for me, the Golden Rule applies.
Do unto others as you expect *others* to do unto you.

if i lost my wallet, i'd like it back, intact.
i do not think iwould offer a reward because i'm just not confortable
with that.  i think if someone did offer me a reward, i'd tell them
to save it or give it to a local charity.  would i be that much
better off with a $10, or $20 reward?  not really.  20 bucks doesn't
buy much these days.  it is the message i would send that would be worth
**far** more to me than the $20 reward: Do unto others...  i would tell them,
in fact, that you can "pay" me back by practising the same when you
find something of value.  give it back, don't expect a reward.
plus, you never know just how hard that person had to work, how long
they had to save, how much they had to do without in order to come up
with the $$ for a vacation.  

    I agree with returning it... several years while traveling to HotLanta
    I got a rent a car with a suit coat still in it, with Airline tickects,
    mucho cash, and credit cards. I thought about taking the cash for about
    5 seconds, and returned it all to Avis. No more than two passed, and 
    I was getting out of my car at work, and inadvertanly lest my wallet
    on top of my car, Around 3:00, I look for my wallet and start
    freaking.. run to the car, and it is still on top of the car where
    I left it, this is in Washington DC area. I know I was paid back
    for returning the wallet.

    What goes around comes around.

    I totally agree in returning it as-unopened-as-possible
    as-quickly-as-possible.  With few/no intermediaries.
    If you think about the energy tied up in your wallet
    you'd want the same.  Time is of the essence due to changing
    credit cards etc.  It's a real hassle.

    As for reward, I feel it's senseless to be rewarded
    for simply doing the right thing.  I wouldn't want that
    reward and I'd be uncomfortable with the implication.
    [Unless the reward were sufficiently large! Then I
    think I could overcome my objections. ]

    Do as you'd like to be done to and let it ride.  I wish
    I'd remember that more than I do.  My life would probably
    be easier.

    TW

    
     >As for reward, I feel it's senseless to be rewarded
     >for simply doing the right thing.  I wouldn't want that
    
    There's a lot of people out there living on the edge that would
    absolutely appreciate a reward...especially since they could have
    easily taken the money for survival.  To be honest, when I was between 
    the ages of 18 and 21, I would have kept a found wallet in a second.  
    All karma aside, life's can be extremely rough, especially when your 
    unvolutarily not eating.  There are those that will and have to gather
    what is spilled. 

    In that case it could be viewed as karmically appropriate 
    that the wallet fell where it was needed!  anyway I was
    hypothesizing my own reaction not somebody else's.. 

    Just goes to show.. you see what you want to see
    you hear what you want to hear

    dig

    
    >In that case it could be viewed as karmically appropriate 
    >that the wallet fell where it was needed!  anyway I was
    >hypothesizing my own reaction not somebody else's.. 
    
	Exactly!  You have an extremely open mind to be able to 
    	justify something of that nature in such a format. :-)  
    
    	Crack cat alley sucks.

>    In that case it could be viewed as karmically appropriate 
>    that the wallet fell where it was needed!  

No, I don't agree with that sentiment - it's much too close to an
outright rationalization.  It would still be wrong -- but it would
be understandable that someone in dire straits would not act with
perfect ethics.  "Karmically appropriate" just doesn't ring true.

If I was starving, literally, or my kids were - I'd break the rules
of ethics and law, no doubt about it.  But it would still be stealing.

tim

    
    If this survey were conducted in a less fortunate environment, I bet
    the results would be much different.  Fortunately, we're a biased 
    crowd cause we're all employed and skilled.
    

    and even tho we get a bum rap
    deadheads ARE generally good humans

    [my knee is jerking... ;-) ] 
    
    
�    If this survey were conducted in a less fortunate environment, I bet
�    the results would be much different.  Fortunately, we're a biased 
�    crowd cause we're all employed and skilled.
    
    gotta be real careful with our assumptions & stereotypes...  
    I'm not sure the data indicates any correlation between 
    morality/integrity/honesty and employment/skill status...
    
    besides, correlations are meaningless when it comes to *individual*
    behavior.
    
    /b   
    

�    and even tho we get a bum rap
�    deadheads ARE generally good humans
    
    right-o, Chris...
    
    but I'm sometimes surprised how often I see negative remarks
    about others' tastes in music, or venues, or someone else's life
    vis-a-vis "full potential..."
    
    /b

For some reason this thread kept coming back to me at random times,
and it evolved into the thought that you could simplify the 
world into these two similarly phrased thoughts:

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you

and

Do unto others as you fear they would do unto you


Too bad we can't entirely eliminate the second phrase though...

PeterT

�        -< Yeah, I know it's a bit too simplistic, but what the hey... >-

�  Do unto others as you would have them do unto you
    
    An interesting thing is that people are supposedly looking
    for simple answers...
    But when it's presented to them, it ain't the one they want!
    
    /b

    
    >    gotta be real careful with our assumptions & stereotypes...  
    >    I'm not sure the data indicates any correlation between 
    >    morality/integrity/honesty and employment/skill status...
    >    
    >    besides, correlations are meaningless when it comes to *individual*
    >    behavior.
    
    No, maybe not on an individual to individual basis.  Yet, how can you 
    doubt that, societally speaking of course, the less fortunate are more 
    apt to deviance simply as a means of survival?     

    re: last
    
    some are , some aren't...i've seen some real down and out people come
    up to others and say "Is zis yours, I think you dropped it".
    
    
    rfb

�    No, maybe not on an individual to individual basis.  Yet, how can you 
�    doubt that, societally speaking of course, the less fortunate are more 
�    apt to deviance simply as a means of survival?     
    
    I can doubt it as easily as you can believe it...
    
    The data may or may not support your judgement, but in the absence
    of data, I think one needs to recognize assumptions for what they are...
    
    fwiw, I believe that there is some data to suggest that people
    act in accordance with societal expectation of them... in which
    case the above statement (about 'deviance') is a rather dismal
    self-fullfilling prophecy...
    
    /bruce
    
    

    
    >some are , some aren't...i've seen some real down and out people come
    >up to others and say "Is zis yours, I think you dropped it".
    
    I bet a wallet ;-) that this survey has already taken place a couple
    hundred times in history among many social rankings.  I'd be very 
    interested finding something of the such for shits and grins...lately
    a big media hoot has been going into varous cities and "testing the 
    people" with experiments like wallet dropping.  Nashville Tennessee 
    rated numero uno on 100% returns.

    yer right Deano....I heard some caveman came up to another and said 
    "Ug now comba gunga" which meant, "hey man, zis yers? I thunk ya
    dropped it"
    
    %^)
    
    rfb

    Barnes
    tech writer 
    multilingual translator

    
    >    fwiw, I believe that there is some data to suggest that people
    >    act in accordance with societal expectation of them... in which
    >    case the above statement (about 'deviance') is a rather dismal
    >    self-fullfilling prophecy...
    
    I give up.   
    
    You see, don't speak solely on data alone.  I speak moreso on "been there 
    done that" perspective, as in like "ain't no bread in the breadbox" and 
    not to proud to not admit it.  Never stolen anything, but saw others who 
    did.  Why? to survive I gather.  So many roads.  Glad I took this one. 

�    You see, don't speak solely on data alone.  I speak moreso on "been there 
�    done that" perspective, as in like "ain't no bread in the breadbox" and 
�    not to proud to not admit it.  Never stolen anything, but saw others who 
�    did.  Why? to survive I gather.  So many roads.  Glad I took this one. 
    
    actually, I think the "been there, done that" type of data is the most
    relevant. 
    
    and, if you were there and did the "right thing,"  it's just as
    easy to believe that others can/will do the right thing also.
    
    imo.
    
    /bruce

	/bruce, don't know if you were talking about me when you
	were indicating your surprise at the negativity expressed
	at someone not living up to their potential...but I'm sure
	that what I wrote yesterday about Timothy Leary would probably
	fall into that category...so, I'll respond ;-)

	the main reason I guess that I had entered my note yesterday
	was to spark some conversation...I intentionally wanted to be
	controversial to get a reaction...and while this is not exactly
	the conversation I was trying to start ;-), this -is- an
	interesting turn, and probably what I really should be thinking
	about anyways.

	this is not the 1st time someone has turned me around as
	to how I react (or even -that- I react) to something outside of 
	myself, with judgement toward the other person's values or
	motives.  It seems it is a lesson I will continue to be taught,
	because I guess it is my natural tendency to put my feelings
	out there, try as I might to focus inwardly.

	so, yeah, valuable lesson there - live your own life dammit!

	Debess

  Independent of wallets or other temptations to steal...

  I agree with the spirit of an earlier comment, that if you've ever had to
  involuntarily go hungry, you never forget it.  It colors future encounters
  with people, makes it personal, tends to halt any rush to judgement...
  (You also take fewer things for granted.)

  What's that saying, never judge someone until you've walked a mile in
  their shoes...

  We all know there's lots of sides to moral decisions:  Many immigrants to
  the US nearly starved in their first weeks, yet many made it through
  (& others perished) without bending their codes of conduct...  It's not
  automatically OK to commit a crime, mitigating circumstances or no.
  
  [Thousands are starving to death in other parts of the world as we sit &
  type -- while their rulers divert relief intended for them...  We can't
  get close enough to *throw* them a wallet.]
  
  On the other hand, many noble institutions (nearly always backed by an
  accumulation of wealth, which is what finances golden ages [right up
  through America's today] and creates the climate for the various freedoms
  we like to call "rights") have been built on deeds that wouldn't stand the
  light of day.  And "rights" evaporate pretty quickly if someone somewhere
  isn't willing to do some pretty nasty sh*t to back 'em up.

  The way the world seems to work, there's just no way to separate the noble
  from its ignoble underpinnings...  But it's no good to dwell on it either.
  (Am I ready to adopt a life of, say, solitude & poverty, in order to
  cleanse my existence of brutish deeds done, out of sight, out of mind, to
  prop it up?  The short answer is, no.)

  I agree with "Do unto others..." as an operative way to get through.
  Supposedly the concept exists within all known cultures & belief systems.
  I choose to think there's a reason for that...   - JayC.

    re: .409
    
    Debess,  Thanks for your most thoughtful comments...
    I've been trying to figure out how to respond ever since
    you posted them, but you pretty much said it all...
    
    The contrasts between what I like and dislike and what others
    like and dislike can be so interesting...  And, as you imply, 
    there are so many things that we can learn from our own reactions
    to these contrasts...
    
    /bruce

    In light of Mickey's new CD being out and the comments in the Hunter
    note:
    
    Anyone heard Mystery Box yet? Comments?
    
    I got it in the mail yesterday and have VERY mixed feelings about it.
    Lyrically I think it's great!! Hunter's done an excellent job putting
    alot of people's thoughts and feelings about the end of "it" to music
    and I see this group of his work as a goodbye of sorts and also an
    eagerness to see what's next.
    
    Musically - I don't like it very much.

    Haven't heard it myself yet, but a good friend called yesterday just
    to rave about it.  And he's extremely picky and critical.  According
    to him the music takes time to grow but is worth the effort.  Third
    tune (can't recall the name) get's his vote for song of the year.
    
    I'm impressed enough to pick this up just on the strength of his
    comments.
    
    /rick
    

    
>    Anyone heard Mystery Box yet? Comments?
	see note 531, jeff, for my comments...guess noone else bought it?
    
>    Lyrically I think it's great!! Hunter's done an excellent job putting
>    alot of people's thoughts and feelings about the end of "it" to music
>    and I see this group of his work as a goodbye of sorts and also an
>    eagerness to see what's next.

	I haven't heard the whole thing yet, and would very much like
	to hear the songs I haven't - the titles of a few that I haven't
	heard definately intrigue me: "The Next Step", "The Last Song".

	Debess

    a question-
    
    
    please post your reasons as to why Farrakhan should be allowed to
    accept a one billion dollar pledge from Libya.....
    and if it came from a source other than Libya, would you support it

    or why not...
    :^)

	Farrakan should be allowed to keep his $1 billion if;

	he agrees to renounce his citizenship, leave the country,
	stop stirring up animosity between races  not neccisarily
	in that order.

	this really burns me up... Gadafi is trying to clean up his
	image of a terriost enabler(well deserved) and Farrakan is
	upset that the govt won't let him keep this money. What about
	all the families on the Lockerbie flight?  I can't believe
	so many people follow these clowns.


	Toby

let him keep the money...  it's his..  he "earned" it...

Farrakhan (sp?) is an american citizen who has exercised
his constitutional rights to say whatever he damn well wants
and piss off anyone who disagrees with him...

it takes money out of Libya and brings it here...  

the rev Louis may not be popular with a lot of folks, but
as far as i know he has broken no laws and there are no
grounds to deny it to him...    otherwise it's just a case of
"we don't like you, we don't like your friends, and we have
the biggest stick so we say NO!"...

			da ve

    I say no way on the acceptance of money. While there are some good
    things Farrakan has done, to me he is a racist, and quite frankly
    i would be concerned about what the money is going to, and where.

�  Farrakhan (sp?) is an american citizen who has exercised
�  his constitutional rights to say whatever he damn well wants
�  and piss off anyone who disagrees with him...
    
    I pretty much have to agree with da ve on this....
    and a lot of what Minister Farrakhan says about American
    injustice & racism is accurate.
    
    I'm not sure about the legality of taking money from
    foreign governments or heads of state, though.  I think
    I saw a suggestion that MF might have to register as a foreign
    agent/lobbyist before  he could accept the cash.
    
    If somebody such as Jerry Falwell or Donald Wildmon would be
    permitted to accept a similar donation, then so should anyone else.  
    
    /bruce

I may not like Louie, but it's still legal to be an *sshole.

When it's not, well, a bunch of us'll have to move to Canada or sumthin'...;-)

I've got a problem with any government telling someone they can't accept
donations from elsewhere...how can that be illegal?


tim

re last few,


	Harboring terrorists from justice and then trying to buy a
	respectable image is wrong IMHO. I also worry about where
	the "good" Reverand will spend this money as stated earlier.
	I've on occasion listened to mr Farrakan and find him offensive
	Racisim is alive and well in this world but he seems to incite
	it too much for my liking.


	Toby

    i had the fortune to be approached by a black muslim in jamaica plain a
    few weeks ago....He asked me if i wanted an Islamic Nation
    newspaper....
    
    I said to him, "well that is kind of ironic..you trying to get me to
    read a publication that says i am the devil....why should i do that?"
    
    he explained the muslim approach to community and how the muslims were
    a group of black lovers.....not white haters....
    well..i gave him a buck and read the paper......
    it did not utter one racist word, or say to hate whites and Jews, but
    it did open my eyes to how the country was viewed from a black
    perspective........you may not like how the reverend goes about it, but
    it appears to me that he is trying to do something to better his
    race....the paper gave times and places for medical and dietary
    workshops....housing and employment  referrals and seminars....
    it did not say "go kill a Jew" or  "make it known you hate some white
    people"
    in fact i have a new found respect for the Muslims as builders and
    investors in their OWN community when most local governments could give
    a shake of a rat's ass what goes on in the lower income housing
    developments of greater Boston....
    
    
    I think he would use that money to build mosques, teach people to read
    and write, and bascially reinvest in their own community
    

"Wrong" and "Illegal" are two completely separate, and often unrelated subjects. 
It's perfectly legal to do something wrong, particularly saying something stupid,
racist, myopic, and selfish.  Hey, that's the American way.

I think Louie's a Major Assh*le, but he's entitled (literally) to be one just as
much as Rush Limbaugh or Howard Stern.  Interesting commonality there,
actually...

The money didn't come from killing and injustice - it came from oil.  If it
depletes the resources of yet another world-class assh*le, all the better...imho.

Look at the bright side: it will probably allow Louie to become a more visible
assh*le, for all the world to see, recognize, and despise.  That, too, is the
American way...

tim

Chris, have you ever watched one of his speeches on tv?

and no, i'm not trying to start an argument or anything...  :^)
in fact, i tend to agree with you in terms of what the Nation
of Islam is trying to accomplish...  i've met a few, under similar
cirumstances as you, since they tend not to "hang out" with me
or mine... :^)  i've also read a number of things about them
in papers, magazines etc...  in most cases, having the Nation of Islam
move into a neighborhood brings many positive changes!  

the men are well dressed, polite, and a pleasure to encounter
as a general rule...  they have chased out drug dealers, established
respectable businesses and been a positive force for change in
their neighborhoods...

now the good rev himself, well, he can certainly give the impression
of a crackpot/ass**le...  :^)  frequently they put his speeches on local
cable access channel...  he can be very longwinded (not unusual to see
a 3 hour sermon/lesson)...  he tends to harp on the same point over and
over...  driving it home with a sledgehammer...  he "plays a lot of old tapes"
in that he'll dig up a lot of history and condemn people in the present time
for the sins of ancestors...

so Farrakhan himself, rubs me the wrong way fairly often, but i have a 
lot of respect for his organization and what he's trying to accomplish
in his community...

				da ve

    I guess this is the same reaction white america had when malcolm x was
    on the scene.....
    
    it is obvious that the only reason the us government would deny this
    gift is because it  is coming from libya....
    
    Now if Saudi Arabia or Egypt were to offer it there would be no
    problem....
    As much as you want want to call him an ass, to get the logistics down
    on his million man march and mobilize a whole race like that is 
    incredible.....
    
    No argument here da ve...I can see the venom sometimes in his manner of
    public speaking...but what better way to wake up the masses than by
    "throwing it in their faces"
    

    fwiw (sorry, not spell-checked): 
       
    from the NYTimes, Aug  28, 1996
       
       After meeting with Mr Farrakhan in January and making the $1 billion 
       pledge, Col Qaddafi was quoted by the state press agency as saying:
       "Our confrontation with America use to be like  confronting a
       fortress from outside.  Today we have found a an opening to enter
       the fortress and to confront it from within.
       
       Since 1986, the US has effectiveky barred the transfer of any money
       between Libya and the US, citing evidence that Libya has been
       involved in terrorist incidents.  Although the sanctions held out
       the possibility of exceptions being made for "humanitarian" reasons,
       new regulations that took effect earlier this month placed an
       additional burden in MR Farrakhan's way by barring, without a
       special exception, the approval of donations from any state
       previously designated as supporting terrorism.
       
       The new regulations were the product of an amendment to
       antiterrorism legislation signed earlier this year...
       
       ....
       
       Benjamin F Chavis Jr, the ehad of the National African American
       Leadership Summit, and a supporter of Mr Farrakhan, said that if the
       Treasure Department rejected the Nation of Islam's application it
       would be unconstitutional and a threat not just to the Nation of
       Islam but to all religious and charitable organizations.
       
       "If the government begins infringeing on the Constitutioanl rights
       of the Nation of Islam, it infringes on the Constitutional rights of
       everyone," Mr Chavis said.  "The Nation of Islam is a legitimate
       religious body that has done an outstandingly good job in the
       African-American community in terms of fostering self-help adn
       empowerment."