Conference rdvax::grateful

JC:
	I go through a discount broker. I was going through a college friend 
at Smith Barney, but with my limited portfolio and odd lot trades of stock, 
the friendship was getting too costly. 

jeff

    
    Hey JC,
      I use Quick and Reilly.  They are a discount broker with quite
    competitive rates, at least when I did my comparison about 3 years ago.
    I'd check around anyway, teleshopping can save some $$.  Q&R provides 
    me with little services as far as advising etc.., however Ive never 
    request any.  i just need a broker for an occassional trade.
    	                                   
    	Mark

I have 2 accounts.  one with fidelity and one w/ waterhouse.  fidelity is
nice 'cuz it has a touch-tone system: i can get quotes, execute trades,
set stop-loss orders, GTC orders, etc... all over the phone.  and, if you
use the phone for your trade, you get 10% off...

however...

the commissions are not that competitive.  that is why i opened an account
with waterhouse.  most trades will cost $35- for what i do, where as with
fidelity, it'll cost $70!!!  so, big savings, plus, waterhouse will send me
company S&P reports on demand, for free....  BUT, they don't have a 24-hr
system :-(  ...

BTW, what are you guys into these days?

    i've been looking into this recently...seems Brown & Co. may be one of
    the deepest discounters.  You need $10,000 to open an account and all
    trades must be settled at time of implementation (No 5 day lag, cash on
    the barrel head, ie: in your account or available on margin)....
    
    By using the 'time of trade rule' they save big $$$ in administrative
    hassle which they pass on to you.  Commissions are about $28/100 which
    is about the lowest i've seen.  i haven't set up an account with them
    yet, but i'm considering them.  i've looked a Fidelity and Schwab and
    they are a lot more expensive....
    
    This may be better in the 'bummer' note, but i've been reading Harry
    Figgie's book 'Bankruptcy 1995'....in there he points out that based on
    trends over the last 30 years and especially the last 6 years, by
    1995-1997, the interest on the nation's debt will have exceeded the
    revenues from individual and corporate income taxes and fees.  Meaning
    that the country will then be borrowing money just to pay the interest
    on the debt, in effect bankrupt.  In case you don't know what that means, 
    just imagine compounded interest in reverse...it will not be pretty.
    
    With that in mind i'm jumping out of any type of bond exposure, be they
    Government, Corporate or Municipal.  In March i'll be moving my 401K
    almost entirely out of the Equity and Guarenteed Income fund into the
    Money Market fund.  i'm also considering an extensive position in gold.
                        
    Now this may not make a lot of sense to some in here, but remember, 
    we have been forewarned, 1987 and especially 1929 can happen again.
    And with that most famous of scouting mottos always on my mind,
    
    Have fun and Be prepared,
    		  		Dugo....� 

                        
>    Now this may not make a lot of sense to some in here, but remember, 

Makes perfect sense to me. That's why I invest in Beer.  :-)

    
    In the past I liked to play options.  It is a crap shoot at its finest.
    You can track a given stock on a daily basis and watch your money grow
    or disappear.  I got burned the last few times on DEC calls.  Most
    recently I adopted a more conservative investment strategy involving
    mutual funds.  I was getting the Mutual Fund Forecaster and they rate
    funds with projected returns and risk level.  My most recent investment 
    was in a Pizza place.  Decent return, equity bonus, and free pizza to
    boot :^).
    
    	Mark
      
    
    	
    	

re: young

i notice you've been asking a lot of ?s about gold in investing!

----

I'm currently looking into Datron Systems (NASDAQ:DTSI), Forest Oil 
(NASDAQ:FOIL), Pheonix Tech (NASDAQ:PTEC), and a few others....  i'd
dump my dec stock today but i'd face the dreaded wash rule if i didn't
sell all of them (which is what i don't want to do).  dec stock is
my worst asset right now...  a guy in the investing notes file
"predicts" that dec will top around 2/14/94, so, i plan to sell around
that time and roll it over into "better" opportunities.... 

I do the mutual fund thang - have about 6 diff. funds with various
amount of $$ in them.  i have lots in tax-free bonds - some of which
i plan to sell after NYE to avoid a more gains for '93.  the TF bond
funds have done very good by me over the last 2 1/2 yrs i've had 'em.
consistenly returning >5.5% FED & STATE tax free along with a bit of 
share-price appeciation. overall, when i sell, i'll probably get anywhere
from 12% - 18% ... (i will have to pay cap.gains on share price gains).
however, i think the Fed is nearly ready to nudge int. rates up, which would
kill my bonds.... so, time to sell.  bonds are _great_ to get into if
the int. rates are going down, which they have over the last 2 1/2 yrs.

i'm also in fid. low-priced stock fund, fid. stock selector, scudder
g&i, etc....  currently about 25% in bonds, 48% stock, 27% cash,,,
i want to get into a good international fund - that is about the only
area where i have 0 investment.

    Hey JC...yep, just trying to figure out what that market is all about.
    After all of my discussions it seems that Current US Gold Eagles may be 
    the best bet.  Some say those and Canadian Maple Leaves, but if the sh*t
    does hit the fan then US Gold Coinage will be more liquid than foreign
    gold....
    
    Some have directed me towards $20 St. Guadens Gold pieces (Cica 1920's)
    but this is a very speculative market because now you have the
    intrinsic value of the coin involved.  It maybe a good short term move
    as interest rates/gold prices escalate, these will go up at a 50%
    greater rate than the gold spot.
    
    Anyway, i'm making my move to US Eagles for long term holding and a
    couple St. Guadens for short term speculation.
    
    Later,
    		Doug
                    

	Yeeeeee Haaaawwww

	There is some real serious shit going on on the stock
	scene.  Up to 37 1/8 in a matter of hours!

	I already put in to sell at 12:01, couldn't have worked
	out better!!!!! 

	Nothing left to do but sell, sell, sell! :-) :-) :-) 
	
	

Hey Now>quote
DEC 37 1/8, change +2 3/8; DJIA 3781.93, change -1.97 at 14:40.
Report entered at Wed Jan  5 14:40:49 1994.

i promised myself that when it got above the 1-dec purchase price i'd sell
i did

- rich

    
    could be reaction to the imminent layoffs in Europe.  (around 6000
    folks I think :-/)
    
    

	"Brokerage system not available."
	"Please, call back later."

	Would that effect the stock positively?

	Perhaps it has a little to do with the new "agressive marketing
	campaign" that is going to be occuring.  I guess ads ran today 
	in the W.S.J., N.Y.T., and other high volume papers, not to mention
	some television propo.

    
    
    >>not to mention some television propo.
    
    Yeah, i saw 2 commercials on A&E last nite - nearly fell outta my chair
    when I saw 'em. They were pretty lame IMO especially compared to some
    of the visually exciting stuff that goes on in commercials these days.
    These were the "new" logo on a black background with some elevator
    muzak playing in the background while some guy jibbered on about
    something. As you can tell they really made a lasting impression ;^)

    
    > Would that effect the stock positively?
    
    yes.
    
    What would make me fall outta my chair would be if Digital actually had
    a *good* marketing ad.. campaign.. commercial.. whatever.
    
    

re   <<< Note 387.11 by ROCK::FROMM "It's hard to care about a don't care." >>>
>                      -< my taxes are simple no more... >-

Actually rich, it is quite easy.  gotta get yerself familiar w/ good old sched
D...  you don't have to worry about it though for a loooooong time.


>i promised myself that when it got above the 1-dec purchase price i'd sell
>i did

good man.. good investing practice is to stick to your goals.  i'm learning
more about doing this... i bought novell at 19 1/2 and planned to sell it
when it went to 23 1/2 for a short-term gain.  i saw it go up to 25 1/4,
knew results were due out, and decided to wait.  i was too busy to read about
the company in the press, and later, the stock plunged back to 20 or so...
if i stuck to my orig goals, i would have been ahead $800, but alas, i'll
be waiting (actually, yesturday it closed at 22 1/8 or so... ).  hell, if
i sold at 25 1/4, i would have been up over 1k,  ain't 20-20 hindsight nice
to have?????

    
    fwiw - the Wall Street Journal apparently did have an article yesterday
    with positive comments about the european "reorg"
    
    right now, DEC stock is at 37 3/8.
    
    

    I've seen the stock do this too many times to get excited.

    I put in a sell order before noon yesterday also.  Come on DEC stock!
    
    	Mark
    

i'm a little confused; if i put in a sell order yesterday before the deadline
(noon thru vtx, 3 pm thru voice-mail), when does the sell occur?  i called the
voice-mail number this morning; the menu option that lists how many shares i
have has the number that i would expect had the sale gone thru, but another
menu option tells me that i haven't sold any shares within the last month; so,
has my sale happened yet?  do i just have to wait a day or so for the voice-
mail system to catch up with it?

- rich

    
    >i'm a little confused; if i put in a sell order yesterday before the
    >deadline (noon thru vtx, 3 pm thru voice-mail), when does the sell
    >occur?
    
    today
    
    

>    today
    
at the opening or closing?  or sometime in-between?

- rich

    
    I don't know.  Call 223-6000 and push the numbers to get a person.
    I think it's #2 and then #6 but I'm not positive.
    
    

    Once again,  I sold on Tuesday ah.................

	Argh!!!!! My sell got rejected cause I &%$#'ed up.....

	Now I have to wait for over a week....it'll probably be 
	back down by then....


	&%$#@*&% !$#%@^& ^&@%^%^&%#%& %&#% &$@$^

	recent sale prices:
	Tue	34.579
	Wed	35.518
	Thu	37.084	(closed at 36.750)
	Fri	??.???	(36.875 @10:00)

Well, I just acquired some shares of Designs Inc.  So, when ya'll need to
buy Levi's, buy 'em at Designs, ok?  :-)

    
    	JC?  Is this a tip mon?  ;-)
    

No tips mon.  I just looked into the company and decided it was a good
investment, that is all.  in today's 1.8% interest-at-the-bank, you gotta
find other vehicles 'cuz $1000.00 today won't be worth $1000.00 next year.

my goal this year is 15% return on investments.
risky?  you bet.  but, if ya don't play, you don't get paid.

for those still holding, Digital stocks down ~10% this morning to 32 5/8 off 3 7/8.......

I heard they stopped trading in DEC stock for a while after the quarterly 
results can out.  $32 and change is not any vote of confidence from Wall
Street.

Jim

    
    I think you gotta be crazy to play the DECstock game anymore.  You take
    your 15% (or close to it) every 6 months and run.
    
    

re       <<< Note 387.33 by TERAPN::PHYLLIS "in the shadow of the moon" >>>

    
>    I think you gotta be crazy to play the DECstock game anymore.  You take
>    your 15% (or close to it) every 6 months and run.
 

i concur with this advise and plan to do so on June 1.  if i had done it
from the start, i wouldn't be $3k or whatever in the negative!!!!!!

    
    in my mind, it's been the only way for a while.  I haven't held on to
    DECstock in years.
    
    

we're below 30:

DEC 29 7/8, change -0 3/8; DJIA 3965.13, change -13.23 at 10:35.
Report entered at Tue Feb  1 10:38:49 1994.

when's the last time that happened?  more than a decade ago?

- rich

> we're below 30:
> when's the last time that happened?  more than a decade ago?

I thought I heard the recent $30 and fraction was the lowest ever, and 
if so, the record may be broken today...

/Ken

    A decade ago we were really hot, moving in on $200 and ready to split.
    I thought I was working for a stable company then. But I was sick of 
    that group and job and hoping to find something better. It took a
    while, but I liked where I landed. 

	I think digital stock will see 25-27 before it sees 35 again.  We
still have a tremendous management problem, IMO.  until we can get that
straightened out and moral back on track, i don't think our stock is
going anywhere but d
			o
				w
					n


bear_on_DEC_JC

    Dow down 96.2 on news that the FED boosted short term rates by a
    1/4%...
    
    		The correction has begun...

I don't think this is going to be a lasting correction because everything
else is indicating a strong economy.  Yeah, i think monday and tues will
continue to be down days, but, i think it'll come back up by the end of
next week....

who really knows.
96 pts is a hefty drop.

re: DOW down 100

<random stock market analyst> on NPR said the 100pt. drop was due to a number
of things, including the 'surprise nudge' in short term F.R. interest rates...

...he said there's nothing to worry about...

Makes ya wonder :-)

- jeff

>re: DOW down 100

it is up 24 already today, that is, if the quote is right from the quote
program.


the market still _wants_ to hit 4k!

hey mr. strobel...


novl has been on the ups lately.  just checked it and it is
24 1/4... up 1 3/8 today (up yesturday 1 3/8 also).

i like it.

    RE: stock 
    
    saw Digital down to 28 1/4 today.  
    
    

re: -.2

see JC, I told ya ;-)  Of course, if I'd cashed my $2k investment in Novell 
last spring and bought Lotus with it, I'd have $7k today!! 

Nice to see Novell rallying. I guess the person with the "latest" inside 
track to replace Ray Noorda is someone from HP who's both popular with the 
industry and Wall St. I still think Lotus will make another play for them. 
Such a move would give Lotus 2 Operating Systems (Unix and DR-DOS) Netware 
and a user interface in Notes. Nice way to squeeze the 'Evil Empire' in 
Redmond.


jeff

Let's see if the rally continues into this week...  here's to hoping 'cuz i
gotta pay for a colorado trip!

    
    	To answer a previously asked question....
        	
    	From VTX
    	
    	The current Employee Stock Purchase Program is scheduled to 
    	be terminated on 12/31/95.  
    
    	

>    	From VTX
>    	
>    	The current Employee Stock Purchase Program is scheduled to 
>    	be terminated on 12/31/95.  
    
specifically where in vtx is this information located?

- rich

    
    	I just went through and read it again.  I believe the part
    	I read was under the "Equity Plan" section (stock options), item
    	12.  So this may not be true of the regular Employee Stock Purchase 
    	Plan.  I do find it interesting that the current stock option 
    	plan will expire though.

>    	I just went through and read it again.  I believe the part
>    	I read was under the "Equity Plan" section (stock options), item
>    	12.

again, i can not find this.  please point me to precisely where you read it.

- rich

    
    VTX IS
    
    Item # 4  (Prospectus)
    
    Item #12  (General Information)
    
    It's one of the first few screens there.

Deano, selection 12 is for the EP (stock options), not the ESPP.  Selections
1-3 are for the ESPP.  As of this morning, the information listed for the ESPP
is dated 12-OCT-1990, and does not contain any mention w/r/t termination of
the plan.

- jeff

    
    So with all these employees selling out on the purchase date, what
    do people feel the results of that will be on Wall Street???
    
    In other words, what are the chancess of the stock falling so 
    rapidly on Jun 1 that despite the 15% discount we end up breaking 
    even/losing out?

    re: .54


    Anything is possible.  :-)

well, it is hard to say deano.

right now, we're at 23.00.  15% of 23 is 3.45.  if we buy at 15% of
23 and dec drops 3.45, it is break even...

a 3.45 move down is possible, as we have seen.

if you think that possibility exists, hold.
but once you hold, you're speculating.

just a reminder that today is the deadline to put in your sell order for the
1-jun purchase, if you are so inclined

vtx deadline is noon.  i think you might be able to go until 3:00 pm by phone.

question, do i just leave the purchase price spot on the form blank?

- rich

    
    yes - leave the purchase $ blank ... they make the connection and
    ok it when they see the sell date 
    
    

    
    and you get a nifty return mail msg verifying your request to purchase.
    
    aaaaaaahhhhh - the magic of computers
    

    ok now - how do i find out how many (Digital) shares I actually have left 
    if I chose not to 'sell all' ?
    
    carol

    carol -
    	call DTN 223-6000 and follow the destructions.

carol:

223-6000
1#
badge#
secret code#
3#

    
    ok - let's go round again. I have the twice annual question about
    employee purchase of stock.  In round numbers, if I have $100 in my
    stock fund or whatever you call it and the stock sells on 12/1 for $30,
    I will get the emp discount and purchase for 15% under that (?) so that
    would be around $25 each so I would have 4 shares for $100, yes?  
    
    And then it gets sold for $30 each and I get $120, yes? 
    
    c

      <<< Note 97.5392 by WESERV::ROBERTS "climb a ladder to the stars" >>>

>    In round numbers, if I have $100 in my
>    stock fund or whatever you call it and the stock sells on 12/1 for $30,
>    I will get the emp discount and purchase for 15% under that (?)

no, you purchase for 85% of the fair market value (a term that we have
debated in the past - don't worry too much about those details) of whatever
was lower - the first day of the buy period, or the last day.  in this case,
the stock has risen significantly, so we get to purchase at 85% of what it was
6 months ago.  i think we'll be buying at around 18 1/2.  since the stock is
now trading in the mid-30's (but slowly slipping), we'll be almost doubling
our money (a 100% return) for what is essentially a 3 month investment (since
some of your money has been on hold for 6 months, but some has only been on
hold a week, so the average is 3 months).  not a bad rate of return.

>    And then it gets sold for $30 each and I get $120, yes? 

don't forget that there is some minimal commission.  but it's pretty small
when dealing with the ESPP (compared to a broker, that is)

- rich

    
    I love this place
    
    thanks Rich!
    
    c

re   <<< Note 97.5393 by ROCK::FROMM "This space intentionally left blank." >>>
                                    -< $$$ >-

>6 months ago.  i think we'll be buying at around 18 1/2.  since the stock is
>now trading in the mid-30's (but slowly slipping), we'll be almost doubling

i think it is actually 18 1/4!

>our money (a 100% return) for what is essentially a 3 month investment (since
>some of your money has been on hold for 6 months, but some has only been on
>hold a week, so the average is 3 months).  not a bad rate of return.

it is actually better than that, because the money you put in last week 
get the same rate of return as the money you put in last july.  so, on
one week's money, you're getting nearly 100% return, annualize that and
it becomes very large! 

>don't forget that there is some minimal commission.  but it's pretty small
>when dealing with the ESPP (compared to a broker, that is)

this isn't true at all.  i can sell 100 shares of DEC thru my disc. broker
for less than with investor services.  all of my dec stock is w/ my disc.
broker.  however, now, i buy/sell the same day /cuz my portfolio is too
loaded w/ DEC.



BTW... this is the period i've been waiting for since i joined dec in '87.
in the summer of '87, DEC was near $199 a share... then, it fell from there.
the bottom happened in the last purchase period.  so, we're looking at
70-90% return... you put in 1000, you get back 1700.  not bad.  if i could
do 50% of my pay, i would.

    Here's some more free advice for you stock mavens.  I strongly advise
    waiting until after the new year to sell stock because the Republicans
    will probably lower the capital gains tax next year.  Also, I think Q2
    results will get a good reaction and I plan to hang on until after
    they're announced.  If I can, money is very tight right now as we're
    OIOKs (one income, one kid).
    
    Jamie

    re Jamie's reply...
    
    i was thinking of putting in something like that myself...  they are
    supposed to drop capital gains (which doesn't really help unless you've
    held the shares for a year i believe...  hsort term cap gains are like
    ordinary income i think) and that might save some money, but if the
    second quarter numbers look good, then the stock should jump up
    again...
    
    i'd like to wait but i'm not sure i can afford to...  :^(  i could use
    that money yesterday, and the part of me that lost on the slot machines
    in Vegas is screaming "take the money and run!!"  :^)
    
    					da ve

>         <<< Note 97.5402 by ALFA2::DWEST "but i play one on tv..." >>>
>               -< is anyone holding for second quarter results? >-

i'm not so sure whether or not that's a good idea.  the stock performance
doesn't necessarily have anything to do with how well we're doing, only how
well we're doing relative to how well people think we ought to be doing.  which
is why we can lose $100 million in a quarter and have the stock soar, because
people thought we were going to lose a lot more.

so now everyone thinks that we're turning around, and that this next quarter
is going to be good.  so what happens if it's not as rosy as people expect?
i'm worried that that could send the stock down again, and the analysts who
are now saying "buy" will return to saying "sell"

i may hedge my bets by selling half immediately and holding on to half.

- rich

i think people are mistaken here.

if you buy/sell on DEC1, it is unlikely that you'll have any cap. gain
unless the stock goes up on the selling day.  the key is where the money
goes.  we buy for 18 1/4, and sell for 33 or so.  the difference is added
to your PAY, and it is not a capital gain.  it is ordinary income.  you'll
only get a cap gain if the price rises ABOVE the nov-30 closing price.
so, say you wait.

30-Nov DEC is 33
Jan 1 comes around and DEC is at 40.
you sell.
cap gain = (40-33) 7/share
then, you get 33-18 1/4 * #shares sold added to your W2.

i quite certain that this is the way it works.

NOTE: if you decide to hold, you've drastically changed the objective
of the ESPP from a 'guarenteed' investment to one of high speculation.
kinda like taking $1000 from the bank and buying XYZ stock.  as with any
speculation, it can go sour or it can grow....  just make sure you
understand this and make sure it matches your original goals when you
joined ESPP.

Also, watch the # of DEC shares you have.
if you have 200 DEC and $5000 in savings, you have more than
50% of your savings/investments in ONE vehicle!!  and, to
add more to this, you also work for DEC.  can you say 
single point of failure??  just becareful, spread the risk
around... if you have too much DEC, sell this round and
_immediately_ roll it into a mutual fund or something else....
FWIW.

In the past, long term capital gains were taxed at a lower rate than
ordinary income.  This type of tax encouraged long-term investment,
and there has been talk of reinstating such a tax - particularly by
the Republicans, who naturally have the most to gain from it.  "Long
term" usually meant you had to hold onto the asset for a year or longer
before selling it if you wanted to qualify for the tax break.  Holding
stocks until January that you purchased in December is not likely to
do you any good unless you anticipate a lower tax burden in 1995 than
you will have for 1994 - lower income, lower tax rate, more deductions
or whatever.  You definitely will not benefit from any change in the
capital gains tax rate.

In addition, keep in mind that it's just as likely that the stock will 
go from 35 to 40 as it is for it to go from 35 to 30 by January 1 - 
whether due to less-than-anticipated second quarter results (remember, 
the market is expecting us to make a profit for the first time in what, 
a year?  two?), or simply due to a post-holiday correction, which isn't 
that rare either.  If you buy 100 shares and the stock drops 5 bucks,
well you can do the math...:-(

Frankly, unless you plan to hold the stock long term, it just doesn't
seem worth the risk.  Bears win, and bulls win, but pigs get burned.

tim

> i think people are mistaken here.

yup.

> if you buy/sell on DEC1, it is unlikely that you'll have any cap. gain
> unless the stock goes up on the selling day.  the key is where the money goes.
> we buy for 18 1/4, and sell for 33 or so.  the difference is added to your
> PAY, and it is not a capital gain.  it is ordinary income.

!!!! *AND YOU PAY ***INCOME TAX*** on that big gain* !!!!!

Income tax is over 40% (28% federal, 6% state, 8% FICA, etc., etc.) for most
folks.  Capital gains tax in "only" 18% now.
                     
Conclusion:  You get the Purple Shaft With The Mustard Cluster if you sell
WITHIN 2 YEARS of the PURCHASE date.  You get to forego the Mustard Cluster if
you wait 2 years before selling.  


- jeff

    
    Or, if you don't see your investment turning around....sell at a very
    slight loss and cry/claim at tax time.
    
    I ended up getting back what I lost and then some.   Rage! :-)

re              <<< Note 97.5406 by SUBPAC::MAGGARD "Integrate!" >>>
                          -< you LOSE if you SELL!  >-

>!!!! *AND YOU PAY ***INCOME TAX*** on that big gain* !!!!!
>
>Income tax is over 40% (28% federal, 6% state, 8% FICA, etc., etc.) for most
>folks.  Capital gains tax in "only" 18% now.
 
the bottom line isn't anywhere near 40% by the time you compute deductions,
etc,etc.  my tax rate ended up being 18.8% or so last year when i compare
the tax i hadda pay vs. the income i had.

>Conclusion:  You get the Purple Shaft With The Mustard Cluster if you sell
>WITHIN 2 YEARS of the PURCHASE date.  You get to forego the Mustard Cluster if
>you wait 2 years before selling.  

this is correct, 'cuz after 2 yrs, DEC doesn't bother tacking on the
purported income from the stock buy/sell.

    re: .5408
    
    DEC keeps track of who sells theie ESPP stock within two years (through
    Investor Services only) because DEC gets a tax deduction on these
    shares (Not that the company needs any more tax deductions, but that is
    the reason Investor Services makes it easy for you as an employeee to
    sell your ESPP shares through the compnay)
    
    Jack

Stock - I'm sooo confused!  I know I gotta do something, I just dunno
what.  I got a lot of shares, a lot from way back when it was around $50-$80.

Josh

re                     <<< Note 97.5410 by POWDML::CUTLER >>>
                          -< Why Investor Services  >-

>    re: .5408
>    
>    DEC keeps track of who sells theie ESPP stock within two years (through
>    Investor Services only) because DEC gets a tax deduction on these
>    shares (Not that the company needs any more tax deductions, but that is
>    the reason Investor Services makes it easy for you as an employeee to
>    sell your ESPP shares through the compnay)
    

yup, i just got a mailing from IS asking me if i sold any of the shares
that i had xfr'd to my disc. broker...

    has anyone created a stock note in here yet?  :^)
    
    now i'm confused...  i know money gets added to your w2 pay stuff
    due to the stock plan, but i didn't think that was your profits from
    sales of stock...   thought that was the "discount" that was considered
    "taxable compensation" from the company...  ie, you buy a 100 stock
    for 85 bux and the $15 is added to your w2...  if you sell for 110
    then the 10 is what you report as a gain on schedule d...  if i
    understand the earlier descriptions correctly, it sounds like in my
    example the 15 discount AND the 10 gain (all your profits) would be 
    on your w2...  this doesn't sound right to me, but i could be mistaken
    or just misunderstand...
    
    this is sure getting confusing...  JC, i may just have to take you up
    on that offer of financial advice!  :^)  :^)  :^)
    
    					da ve

    re .-1
    
    You've got it right.  I was confused earlier.
    
    Jamie

we really ought to have a stock note, shouldn't we?

anyway, just a reminder that the deadline to put in a sale for tomorrow is
fast approaching.  some FAQ from VTX:

    Q:  What is the cut-off for selling?

    A:  The cut-off is 12:00 noon Eastern Time.  VTX IS sell requests are
        time-stamped when you fill in information and use FORM ENTER.

    Q:  Will I get an electronic confirmation?

    A:  Yes, within a few hours of placing your sell request via VTX IS, you
        will receive via E-mail a confirmation from Investor Services that
        your sale order was received for processing.

    Q:  Can I obtain my account balances through VTX IS?

    A:  Presently, no.  Possibly in the future.

    Q:  How do I sell for December 1st, 1994?

    A:  Access the Sell Form, fill in ALL for # Shares to Sell, 01-Dec-1994
        for the Purchase Date, and E for the Plan Type.  (Valid pre-selling
        dates for December 1st are Nov 1 - Nov 30th, 12:00 noon Eastern US
        Time.)

- rich

p.s. i think the cutoff is 3 PM if you do it over the phone

re          <<< Note 387.79 by ALFA1::DWEST "but i play one on tv..." >>>
               -< mebbe we need a dechead investing topic? "^) >-

it was in the true Grateful spirit of digressions! :-)

>    now i'm confused...  i know money gets added to your w2 pay stuff
>    due to the stock plan, but i didn't think that was your profits from
>    sales of stock...   thought that was the "discount" that was considered
>    "taxable compensation" from the company...  ie, you buy a 100 stock
>    for 85 bux and the $15 is added to your w2...  if you sell for 110
>    then the 10 is what you report as a gain on schedule d...

yup, this is right.  $100 is considered your "cost basis".  typically, in
a buy/sell on the same day scenario, you usually have a loss!  that's because
DEC tends to drop on the buy dates... i'm predicting a $2-3 drop today, close
around 31 or so.  so, yesturday we closed at 33 7/8.  i reckon this will
be our cost basis for this purchase, but, DEC will get us the avg price
for the day, which will be maybe $32 or so.  so, you really will have a cap.
loss, very slight however (33 7/8 - 32.00)  



>  if i
>    understand the earlier descriptions correctly, it sounds like in my
>    example the 15 discount AND the 10 gain (all your profits) would be 
>    on your w2...  this doesn't sound right to me, but i could be mistaken
>    or just misunderstand...
 
just the $15 is W2 reported, the 10 goes to sched. D.

BTW, if you have other DEC stock, be sure NOT TO SELL 30 before/after
the buy date 'cuz you'll get the pipe w/ the IRS wash rule.  there are
some ways you can trade in this window, but, it is complicated and
subject to intepretation...
   
>    this is sure getting confusing...  JC, i may just have to take you up
>    on that offer of financial advice!  :^)  :^)  :^)

c'mon over!!! we'll have a coupla brews, talk money, then
check out the commidity Oats market and see how that's
doing :-)

Looks like we closed at 32, off -2.

predictable.

<><><><><><><><>  T h e   V O G O N   N e w s   S e r v i c e  <><><><><><><><>

 Edition : 3207               Monday  5-Dec-1994            Circulation :  5264 

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==================                            [Nashua, NH, USA                 ]

Fair Market Value
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<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
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<><><><><><><><>   VNS Edition : 3207      Monday  5-Dec-1994   <><><><><><><><>

Got the payment... nice 78% return or so.




BTW folks, DEC 15 is the cutoff for joining SAVE aka 401k.
if you can afford it, do it... great hedge on taxes.

    regarding the SAVE program, there's a discussion going on in DIGITAL
    notes right now about the various fund choices that are available 
    these days...  apparently there are folks out there that are
    considerably less than pleased about the recent changes to the plan...
    check it out and know where your money's going...
    
    					da ve

Schedule D is a nightmare for me this year.  We've got a small number of Kodak
shares that were given to my wife 25 years ago.  The dividends have always been
re-invested and the stock has split at least twice (2-1 & 3-2) since then.  Last
year Kodak spun off Eastman Chemical and we acquired an even smaller number of
shares of this stock.  Eastman Chem. then offered to sell the shares for a small
fee and we took advantage of it.  So, now I need to figure out the cost basis,
which is going to be 20% of the basis of the original Kodak shares.  Ugggh. 
This is all going to amount to probably about $20 of capital gain for hours of
my effort deciphering IRS rules.

Worse yet, we just got a statement from Eastman Chemical saying that we still
have a balance of $0.02.  I'm leaving that one for the executor of my estate. 
:-)

The complexity of the tax codes really discourage me from doing much investing.

Jamie 

Jamie, just remember, "Better living through chemicals", ooops, thats
_Dupont_!  :-)

 - Josh

> Worse yet, we just got a statement from Eastman Chemical saying that we
> still have a balance of $0.02.  

Just watch... you'll get audited for being a home-broker and that measly $0.02
will cost ya $3895.23 in back taxes and penalties!

:-)

- jeff

    Jamie, I know what you mean.  When I worked for Prime I was in the
    stock plan there.  But then Prime got taken over and the shares
    (all 35 of them) got turned into some money and some partial 
    debentures or whatever for the remainder.  Lots of gnarly
    paperwork and massive forms and yearly payouts of $2 or so and
    lord almighty I'm glad its finally over with.  Short term and
    long term capitol gains/losses of less than $50 dollars and 
    I think theres still some (6 ?) debentures or shares or
    whatchamalcallit floating around somewhere, and a fairly recent call
    from an investor wondering what we were going to do with them
    (HEy we used the papers to start up the woodstove during last
    years blizzard, so bug off man!)  When it got to be only a few
    bucks a year we decided it wasn't even worth declaring.  Hope they
    don't bother to tell us we've been wrong.  ;-)
    
    PeterT
    

At least we have all the paperwork, I'd hate to think about re-creating this
paper trail.  I did get an excellent tour of form production over the last 1/4
century -- from a hand typed form to a fancy customized laser printed statement.
It makes me long for the good old days when you could get screwed over with that
personal touch instead of the cold slap of technology.

Jamie

    Me, I take all this stuf to my CPA_guy.  My trusty manila envelope is
    stuffed already and I'm still waiting for the 1099 to show up.  
    

re: recreating a paper trail

easy ... a few hours with MS Word and a laser printer and you can make
ANYTHING :-)


- jeff

    Hi everybody,
    
    Sorry if I'm wronging Notes. I'm writing from Italy and I'd need to
    have information about DeadBase. 
    Just the quick story. Eight months ago i did an International Money
    Order in favour of DeadBase Orders to buy the DB VIII. They confimed me
    the receiving of my payment and the next shipping, but at the present
    time I have received nothing. Please, does anyone give me the telephon
    number (and possibly the FAX number) of DeadBase ?
    
    The address is : DeadBase Orders
                     P.O. BOX 499
                     03755 Hanover, NH.
    
    I thank you in advance for any help.
    Ciao. 
    Donato Giussani (DEC Milano,Italy)  (ESTASI::GIUSSANI)
    

    Donato my man
    Directory Assistance has no listing for anything under DeadBase
    maybe customs is holding it up?
    
    chris

    anyway - the guy you want is John Scott.  He lives in South Cornish,
    New Hampshire : (603)542-2945.  If you get to speak with him, tell
    him 'Hi from Carol, niece of Lois'.  
    
    Such a small world after all - my grandparents were from Palermo and from 
    Florence...talk about strange bedfellows!  
    
    Carol

    and i should add ... Hanover, NH is where he gets business things done.

    Carol,
    
    I thank you very much for the info you gave me.
    
    Saturday 18 Feb., I called John and we clarified everything. He said me
    that the missing DeadBase shipping was due to his probably Int'l Money
    Order lost. He will send me the DB VIII in a couple of days with no 
    additional costs. I'm looking forward to read the DB VIII !
    
    Thank you again Carol, and if you need anything from Italy feel free to
    contact me at any time, by sending an email to    GIUSSANI @MLN 
    or ESTASI::GIUSSANI
    
    Ciao.
    Donato
        
    

	In case people havn't noticed this yet, the DCU is offering
	a 9 month certificate  which has a 6.80% return on a 
	minimum investment of $1500.

	That's an extremely good rate for a non risky investment
	for under a year.

    Donno...the DCU not risky???  But you're right Dean-o...6.8% looks mighty
    fine...maybe i'll through some money their way...do you have to be a
    member???
    
    Dugo

Well, based on the rumors I hear... I might be dumpin some Digistock and going
with that 6.8% CD deal!

- jeff

Keep in mind that the certificate does not make 6.8% in 9 months.  The 6.8% is
the APY (annual percentage yield).  It's a gimmick they use to entice you into
buying the certificate.  Over 9 months, you actually make slightly less than
5.1%.  If you leave your money in for more than 9 months, they automatically
re-start the certificate at the rate that's in effect on that future date, and
then you can realize a 6.8% gain after an additional 3 months.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

adam

ps. I knew it was too good to be true

    
    Adam, you are right, but this is still a good short term investment....
    blows away the money market savings account fer ser.  The 6.80% 
    would probably also be valid in a 12 mos. investment.
    
    Definitely not risky.  In the disclosure they mentioned that the 
    money would be returned without penalty if the DCU was liquidated
    or if the certificate owner dies.

    Yeah, I really doubt that it's a gimmick, per se, to quote the APR and
    yield that way - in fact, they're required by law to do that.  All told, 
    it's a decent, safe, short-term investment...
    

first off, DCU is FDIC insured or insured by the other guys.
you have problems if you have over 100k there.  

second, all banks quote APY.  DCU does it just like the others
so one can competitively evaluate

third, 6.8 is f*g nice.  look in the papers and tell me how
close others are coming on 9 mo CDs.  even the 1 and 2-yr
CDs struggle to get close to this.

fourth, i put 4k in it!
psyched.

fifth, i'm over 200+ notes behind in here.
leading 2 version at one time plus planning _2_ more future versions
for release _this_ year is hectic.  
:-)

Did Digital announce the Q3 numbers today?

The stock is up 2 5/8 all of a sudden.


- jeff

    
    The market is at 4130+. Tech stocks up in general.  
    Q3 results not due until 3rd Wednesday after q-end.
    
    	Mark

re           <<< Note 387.105 by SUBPAC::MAGGARD "Mail Order Wives" >>>
                           -< whassup widda stock? >-


>Did Digital announce the Q3 numbers today?

ah, don't forget, the qtr end(ed) mar 31.
should expect an announcement 3rd weds in apr.
personally, at 40+, i'd recommend SELLING HAHD!!~

re: JC

> should expect an announcement 3rd weds in apr.
> personally, at 40+, i'd recommend SELLING HAHD!!~

Already did.  Some of it over 40 even! :-)

Palmer said he expects profits in Q3 and Q4, and Wall Street expects ~$40 mil
in profits from us on Apr 19th.  While I'd love to see $150+mil profit, I
don't thunk it'll happin...  ...but just in case it does, I won't sell ALL of
my <$20 stock just yet :-)


- jeff_just_paid_unkle_
  sammy_for_1994....:-(

i'm on the fence to sell or not sell.
one hand, i don't need the cash, so i can stand to wait.
on the other hand, if it goes to 30, i missed out on $1k
(plan to sell 100).


btw,... if anyone plans to sell more than 125 shares or so,
get the certs and xfr to a disc. broker.  cheaper commisions
plus you can set stop losses, sell while you hold on the phone, etc.
i have my at my broker

	The word around here is "Digital is doing very well".

	I don't know what that means, I was hoping all numbers
	would be published by now, so we'd see first hand.

	Publish em, dammit!!!!

It means that the stock closed at 45 1/8 yesterday...but it
probably doesn't mean much else..;-)

the rubber hits the rd next weds;  let's see what the results show.
my guess is that they will be ok, but the stock won't move much 'cuz
it's already done its moving...


glad to be in espp for the full draw.
buy price is gonna be 27 1/2 or so, yeeah?///
that's almost $20 / share gain...

            <<< Note 387.109 by BIODTL::JC "Green is the colour" >>>

>btw,... if anyone plans to sell more than 125 shares or so,
>get the certs and xfr to a disc. broker.  cheaper commisions
>plus you can set stop losses, sell while you hold on the phone, etc.
>i have my at my broker

I think this is good advice....

How much of a cheaper commision though?  There's been a few times where
the commision I did have to pay at a discount broker offset the loss I 
would have had by letting DEC sell my stock....

bob

re             <<< Note 387.113 by SMURF::HAPGOOD "Java Java HEY!" >>>

>How much of a cheaper commision though?  There's been a few times where
>the commision I did have to pay at a discount broker offset the loss I 
>would have had by letting DEC sell my stock....


it really isn't much cheaper.  maybe 10 bucks or so.  the _biggest_ win
is the ability to set stop-loss sells and to be able to sell at a precise
time (ie: when you call) vs. having the long wait w/ IS.

            <<< Note 387.114 by BIODTL::JC "Green is the colour" >>>

>it really isn't much cheaper.  maybe 10 bucks or so.  the _biggest_ win
>is the ability to set stop-loss sells and to be able to sell at a precise
>time (ie: when you call) vs. having the long wait w/ IS.


Oh I read ya loud and clear - the wife_unit is a broker and she's drilled me
repeatedly....

bob

    
    $$$So DID we or DIDN'T we
    
    
    		Make a PROFIT, PROPHET  

    did...

    
    so i see the we have a net income of $xxxx but that doesn't necessarily
    mean a profi does it? 
    
    

So we got a profit of .44 per share.

Why does the stock drop (2 points last time I looked)...
I know it *always* does when we announce our earnings but why?  Is Wall
Street disappointed with us? 

on the whole things are starting to looking up (it seems).
bob

    
    Buy on rumor, SELL on news.
    
    	
    

    i think we'll be in the black for the year...  we're 2 for 3 so far on
    the quarterly results...
    
    i'm actually looking for the stock to fall again when that guy out in
    california sells...  (anyone besides me remember that guy who bought
    millions with his own money betting on the turnaound?  his target price
    for this year was around $50 i think)
    
    it's also normal for our stock to go up a bit in the couple of days
    before our results are announced and then drop back afterwards...
    (see "buy on rumors, sell on news")...
    
    				da ve_psyched_to_be_doing_his_part

the WSJ attributed the price drop to profit taking.
Techs were off for the most part also.
like others have said, buy on rumor, sell on news.

i'd say a visit to the 38 range, then a trading range 40-43

what is the stock trading at now?

i've had no luck getting thru to either the internal DEC quotation, or the
complete list of stocks on the web for the past several days.

(and no, i can't just check a newspaper.  i don't get one.)

- rich

    re .123
    
    The HLO2 library gets all sorts of newspapers, including the WSJ and
    Globe.  You could also pick one up at a newsstand.
    
    Someone's been posting the prices pretty regularly in
    nyoss1::digital_investing.
    
    Jamie

    RE: .123
    
    >(and no, i can't just check a newspaper.  i don't get one.)
    so RICH!  Does this mean you are boycotting newspapers?  :-) :-) 
    how many hours without newspapers so far? 
    
    

>    >(and no, i can't just check a newspaper.  i don't get one.)
>    so RICH!  Does this mean you are boycotting newspapers?  :-) :-) 
 
no, i just think that they're a huge waste of paper, and i don't know if i'd
read it enough to make it worthwhile.  maybe if i could get just the front
section.  but i'd rather deal with an electronic form that was convenient to
get and to read.

and i don't boycott tv either.  i just don't think there's enough worthwhile to
pay for either tv service (we never subscribed to cable when i grew up) or to
go out and buy a tv.  i wish more computer monitors (i.e. something besides
commodore) could accept NTSC input.  if/when i ever get a computer (the only
one i currently own is a 50% share of a VIC20), if i could get a monitor that
accepted NTSC composite video as an input, i'd probably get that and then buy
a VCR.  but, if i'm around TV, and if there's something interesting on, i might
watch it.  the 2 main things i watched when i lived in a house with a TV were
the Simpsons and Seinfeld.

my main source of news is NPR.  behind that is various computer forms of media
(it's incredible how many things i hear first in GRATEFUL).  i do currently
subscribe to TIME magazine, but i'll probably drop it when my subscription is
up because: 1) it's a joke for them to be still calling it a news magazine (it
usually either seems to swing towards being a big editorial page or a People
magazine lookalike), and 2) you can read it for free on the Web.  does anyone
have any recommendations of weekly news magazines that they think are good?

- rich

<-  Gang... please go easy on our buddy Rich... they're workin' 'im hahd!!!

:-)

- jeff

Pee Ess...

Stock is +2 today :-)


- jeff

    closed at 45 on friday .. not bad.  so the low for this period was 18.?
     - a mighty pretty penny if i say so myself.  
    
    

looking at the buy of 27 1/2, i think.

64% up since then @ 45

    It ain't June 1st yet.  It ain't even close.
    
    I'll believe it when I see it...
    
    

re: 3.5 wks away.

i say 48 1-jun.

    C'mon 50 !!!!

    :-)

    - jeff

    so we can put in the "SELL" order early like other times?
    
    

re      <<< Note 387.134 by WECARE::ROBERTS "climb a ladder to the stars" >>>

>    so we can put in the "SELL" order early like other times?
 
i would think so.

i'm going to hold this lot
for bigger gains later.
   
    

     ---------> <-----------
               ^
               |

Missed 50 by THIS much!!!!

Big day for high techs!  

Microsoft   +1 7/8
Intel       +2 5/8
IBM         +2
HP          +1 5/8
Motorola    +1 1/4

Digital got to it's highest in 2 years today... how many of us can say that we
did the same today???  :-)


- jeff


---------------------------
http://www.secapl.com:81/cgi-bin/qsx  sez:

Symbol        : DEC          Exchange    : New York Stock Exchange (NYSE)
Description   : DIGITAL EQUIP CORP                           
Last Traded at: 48.7500      Date/Time   : May 22  4:00:40
$ Change      : 1.7500       % Change    : 3.72    

Volume        : 1198500      # of Trades : 379      
Day Low       : 47.0000      Day High    : 49.3750  
52 Week Low   : 18.3750      52 Week High: 49.3750  

           <<< Note 387.136 by SUBPAC::MAGGARD "Mail Order Wives" >>>
>Big day for high techs!  
>Microsoft   +1 7/8


Did you see what happened to Intuit yesterday?  Took the *big* hit....

bob

    isn't there a reply in here that has the instructions for placing an
    order to sell ahead?  i was looking for it, thinking i'd put in an
    order to seel when we buy on the first, but i can't find it...
    clues?
    
    					da ve

VTX IS  ---> Menu Item 1 Sell Stock --> Menu Item 2 Common Questions/Answers

    thank you...  :^)

    Digital stock closed yesterday at 49 1/8 !  very cool
    
    

    Please, does anybody give me the correct address of Dalton Center
    (street, Zip, Town, and possibly FAX#). I suppose Dalton Center is in
    San Francisco, CA.
    
    I thank you in advance for any help.
    Ciao. 
    Donato 

Well, i got my 401k statement.
i'm psyched that the 3 funds i'm in were the 3 top-performing funds
this past qtr , and year for that matter (all of 'em 29% return and up!)

go long.
invest in equities(stocks)

so, open enrollment time for full-time decheads.
2 programs folks in here may wish to consider are the HCRA
and DCRA programs.  these are programs that allow you to
set aside pre-tax dollars to reijmburse you for out-of-pocket
health care related costs, such as the co-payment that many
HMOs charge.  HCRA is for you and your spouse, provided that
your spouse is _not_ a dependent of yours.  DCRA is for
your dependents.  for example, deb is my spouse and i do
not claim her as a dependent, so, i can use dollars i put
in HCRA to reimburse both deb and i for out-of-pocket health
care costs.  this includes lots of things:

	- HMO co-payments
	- eye glasses
	- mileage to and from the place of service
	- prescriptions,
	- dental!

min and max for hcra is 6/wk and 40/wk respectively.

DCRA is more for dependents, and, i believe child care is
also included as a reimbursable item (check your bene book
or call 'em to find out what is fair game for reimbursement).
so, if you have childcare costs of $100 /wk, you can get
most of that reimbursed via your DCRA account.  i think the
min you can do for this one is 6/wk and the max is 96/wk.

the downside risk to this whole thing is use or lose it.
that is, if you do 10/wk, which is 520/yr, and your out-of-pocket
costs are only 400 for the yr, you forfeit $120.  depending on
your tax situation, this 120 loss may still be better than
if you paid your costs with taxed dollars.

why is this good?
'cuz it is PRE-TAX dollars!
rough figuring here:

	SS/medicare tax		 7%
	max state inc. tax	 5%
	fed tax			18%
				---
				30%

1 dollar of real money really costs you about $1.43 in taxable income.
so, if you go out and pay $200.00 for a new pair of glasses, it really
cost you 1.43 * 200 = $286.00.  if you used an HCRA for this, you
would save yourself $86.00.

this really requires you to get a handle on your out-of-pocket
health care expenses for the yr.  if you _know_ you are going to
glasses (or any big ticket item), it makes a lot of sense to sign up, 
for example.  or, if you
know you are going to have childcare expense, again, it makes sense.
the numbers do add up fast.  if you spend 100/wk for childcare, under
the taxable scenerio it cost you (100 * 52 * 1.43) $7436 for the year.  
using a DCRA reimbursement account w/ ther tax contribution, it would cost:

	4 * 52 * 1.43 =  297
	96 * 52 * 1   = 4992
			----
			5289

for a saving of more than $2000.00 in one year !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  
BUT...
if your health care costs are small each year, it probably
DOES NOT make sense to use a reim. account.  i never used one
before because by myself, i rarely had more than 50/yr in out-of-pocket
health care expenses.  so, be sure to check your case out
carefully and run your questions by a more qualified benefits
person!

check it out.
be sure you FULLY UNDERSTAND the details before you sign up.
i may not have every detail correct here, so, BE SURE TO DOUBLE
CHECK IT....

lator!

    re .144
    
    What figure is used for mileage reimbursement, the IRS's or DEC's?
    
    Another big advantage (at least of HCRA, dunno 'bout DCRA) is that you
    can submit claims for more money than is in your account at that time. 
    For example, you could submit a $150 claim for glasses in January, even
    though there would be just a week or two worth of money in the account.
    
    The only downsides are that, as JC mentioned, you have to use it or lose
    it, and there's a little extra paperwork involved.
    
    I just found out about the plans recently and we've been poring over
    this year's bills to set the contribution rate.  It's amazing how those
    $2 and $5 co-pays add up, and we've had a very healthy year.
    
    Jamie
    

                                     
    If I had medical problems I would do this..otherwise, I think it's
    totally useless.  Co-pays for Havard Comm. Health are $3 an office 
    visit/prescription/whatever.  I spent a total of $0 on copays for 1995. 
    I wouldn't benefit out of something like this at all, as a matter of
    fact, I get screwed!

    I wanna hire JC as my financial advisor.....
    
    
    rfb

    Juat put in for the HCRA.  I definitely need some new glasses
    and I'm just waiting till after the first.  We usually use the DCRA
    but my wife is planning on quitting her job, so that will cut
    down on child care expenses, and most of that can be 
    written off (to an extent).  Since we're in flux on that, we
    decided not to put out for it this year.
    
    You know, the weird thing about my glasses is that after a while, 
    I always get this blurry spot near the upper outside corner of my
    left lens.  Frankly I think my eyebrows end up eventually wearing
    down and scratching the coating.  The people in the eyeglass stores
    that I've mentioned this to thinks its a bit too farfetched.
    
    PeterT
    

Can someone put in some details regarding the Sam Adams offering.  I'm in
the money for some investing - would you recommend it?

adam

re:  <<< Note 387.149 by PAUPER::SIEGEL "The revolution wil not be televised" >>>

> Can someone put in some details regarding the Sam Adams offering.  I'm in
> the money for some investing - would you recommend it?

I think you have to get a card explaining the offering from a 6-pack.  
I noticed some at a liquor store recently...

/Ken

    
    I called them yesterday and the offering is now closed!
     
    The deadline for the mail-in is 16 Nov. at 12:00 noon..
    
    I mailed mine yesterday by overnight mail I kind of doubt getting in on
    this but what the hell it's worth a try.
    
    Divide Dave
     

    <<< Note 387.151 by BSS::DSMITH "A Harley, & the Dead the good life" >>>

Hey Divide Dave,

>    I called them yesterday and the offering is now closed!
 
Did this mean when you called them that it would be useless to mail at all
today on the 15th?   I mean was it CLOSED on the 15th?  Or was it going to
close out as it said it would on the 16th at noon.

:)

As for this thing - 
you could make some dough - you could lose some dough.

it wouldbe nice to have the certificates in your hot little hands but those
getting in on the consumer offering will have to wait until "mid december" 
for them and who knows what'll happen after the other 1/2 of this offering 
(the investor half) is done making a buck off of the inital frenzy.

I also thought it was interesting that-
	-kuch?koch? is the only one who has any beer experience that is an	
	 executive in that company.
	- that koch needs money.
	- that 2 of the distribs that make his beer are filing chapt. 11.

so what did I do?  I sent em so dough :)
bobo

    
    When I called there was a recorded message that stated they would not
    be mailing out any of the forms you have to fill out in order to buy
    stock.
    
    I got lucky (I think) and got a form from RFB and mailed it overnight
    yesterday to be there by noon today.
    
    Thats all I know, if I get any stock it will luck, but as rfb say its
    like sending in for mail order you don't if you'll get'em but the worst
    that can happen is you get your monery back.
    
    
    Divide Dave
    
    

    wow, I missed it...and I tell folks that I'm a majority stock holder in
    Sam Adams products...evidenced by the keg-like dimensions of my Sam
    Adams like belly :)))

See note 923.* of NYOSS1::MARKET_INVESTING for details on the Boston Beer
Company IPO...

re: .152

Yeah, the whole "can't sell 'til Xmas" thing about it could leave lots of
folks with a nasty aftertaste...  buying a stock at a fixed price and no price
history then being forced to wait three to four weeks before you can sell it
is a pretty big risk, IMO.



But then it might go the way of NSCP and be a nice green bundle of joy for the
holidays. (Netscape opened at about double the IPO price, currently about
triple the IPO price).



Place yer bets  ... ;-)

    oh shit...I'm gettin nervous already......beerthirty....
    
    rfb

re     <<< Note 387.145 by ASDG::IDE "My mind's lost in a household fog." >>>

>    What figure is used for mileage reimbursement, the IRS's or DEC's?
 
cannot remember.
it is in the range of .22-.25 /mi
   

re                     <<< Note 387.147 by CXDOCS::BARNES >>>

>    I wanna hire JC as my financial advisor.....
 
i have an easy payment program: beer, or, ah... ah, nevermind.
:-)

re  <<< Note 387.149 by PAUPER::SIEGEL "The revolution wil not be televised" >>>

>Can someone put in some details regarding the Sam Adams offering.  I'm in
>the money for some investing - would you recommend it?

no.
stick your $$ in a good mutual fund and let the big boys
manage your $$.  let me tell you, it is nerve wracking
doing the buy-your-own-stocks thing.  in fact, i want to
move more to just mutual fund stuff with maybe a little
playing around in the options mkt for fun.

    re .152
    
    As far as I know, Koch has no brewing experience.  There's no
    great-great-grandfather's secret recipe, it was developed by brewing
    consultants.  To top it off, Sam Adams was not even a brewer (he was a
    malster).  Jim Koch is the Betty Crocker of beer, except that he's not
    a complete fiction.
    
    For those who don't know, Sam Adams owns a small showcase brewery in
    Jamaica Plans, but the vast majority of SA products are brewed under
    contract at breweries in New York, Oregon, and Germany.  I haven't
    heard if they plan to use the capital raised from this IPO to construct
    a brewery.  Pete's Wicked Ale recently went public (and did very well
    with its IPO) for that purpose.  Currently, Pete's empire consists of
    a rented office in Santa Clara, Ca.
    
    I don't think Koch needs money, rather that some of the original
    investors want to cash in.  None of the above means that Jim Koch is a
    bad guy or that BBC is a bad investment.  I have a tremendous respect
    for anyone who can start a successful business without much capital. 
    He's achieved tremendous market penetration -- I was in San Francisco
    last week and Sam Adams products were much more readily available than
    Anchor or Sierra Nevada.  I'm also impressed by Sam Adams' quality and
    cosistency; most of the microbrews I've bought in bottles have been
    stale or worse.  Just last week I drank a six pack of Bridgeport ale (a
    respected Oregon brewery) that was stale and highly overcarbonated.
    
    BTW, The Oregon beers are Boston Beer Company products.  Retailers were
    reluctant to devote more shelf space to Sam Adams products, so Koch
    simply started another brand name.  With his distribution network
    already in place, this was an extremely smart move.
    
    Jamie

re:     <<< Note 387.161 by ASDG::IDE "My mind's lost in a household fog." >>>

>    BTW, The Oregon beers are Boston Beer Company products.  Retailers were

Interesting, but I find it surprising because I think the Oregon -brand
beer is pretty lousy stuff...  whereas SA is typically good brew.

xref <<<grate beer>>>

/Ken

    those west cost brewers LOVE to dump in their locally grown hops, too
    much so for my tastes
    
    I'm looking at the Sam's stock thang as a short term investment, unlike
    the mutual funds thang being a long term one. (which I'll prob never
    see anyway, but hopefully Patyy and my kids will)
    
    rfb_non_hophead_non_finace_head_but_boy_can_I_spend_money!!!

	I thought that SA was originally brewed in Pittsburg?
	(thought I heard this last year)

	I didn't know Oregon beers were BBC products.
	I love the IPA!


	Toby

IMHO, the BBC stock offering to the general public (via six-packs, no less) is a "fun" thing for 
the company and should be considered so by anyone participating.  I venture they did it that way 
for publicity and to get SA lovers even more entrenched with the product.  I mean, who wouldn't 
want to be able to say, "isn't this a great beer ... and I'm a stockholder too!"  

In any case, while it is always a wise investing move to buy into co's where you know something 
about the product (as "the product" often is essential to the company's strength), it is still a 
flyer.  I would not be depending on "investments" like this to fund my retirement, for example, 
or for a short-term, get-rich-quick thing.  (Usually the way to make money in stocks is to HOLD 
'em for the long term -- you only make the big short term killings when you are a pro watching 
the ticker and overhearing the right news in the restroom <g>)  

It's a fun thing -- Xmas present to yourself and significant other.  I bet the certs will be 
framable, the annual report fun and --- imagine what the stockholders meeting will be like! 
Mmmmmm, tasty!  

But, *SIGH* , I missed the deadline too.  Maybe Sierra Nevada will go public ...

                <<< Note 387.165 by XANADU::KENMAN::matthews >>>
                        -< My view of BBC offering ... >-

IMHO, the BBC stock offering to the general public (via six-packs, no less) is
a "fun" thing  for  the company and should be considered so by anyone partici-
pating.  I venture  they  did  it  that way for publicity and to get SA lovers
even more entrenched with the  product.   I mean, who wouldn't want to be able
to say, "isn't this a great beer ...  and I'm a stockholder too!"  

In any case, while it is  always  a wise investing move to buy into co's where
you know something about the product (as  "the  product" often is essential to
the company's strength), it is still a flyer.    I  would  not be depending on
"investments" like this to fund my retirement, for example,  or  for  a short-
term, get-rich-quick thing.  (Usually the way to make money  in  stocks  is to
HOLD 'em for the long term -- you only make the  big  short term killings when
you  are  a  pro  watching  the ticker and overhearing the right news  in  the
restroom <g>)  

It's a fun thing -- Xmas present to yourself and significant other.  I bet the
certs  will be framable, the annual report fun and --- imagine what the stock-
holders meeting will be like!  Mmmmmm, tasty!  

But, *SIGH* , I missed the deadline too.  Maybe Sierra Nevada will go public
...

    i hear on it's first trading day it went up over 8 points?
    
    					da ve

Da ve,

close to doubling.....

BUT the consumer offering folks won't get their stock certificates until
"early to mid december" and who knows what it will be like then.  


Symbol        : SAM          Exchange    : New York Stock Exchange (NYSE)
Description   : 
Last Traded at: 28.0000      Date/Time   : Nov 21 

Volume        : 3474200      # of Trades : 1250     
Day Low       : 26.8750      Day High    : 32.1250  
52 Week Low   : 26.8750      52 Week High: 32.1250  

The article here in USA Today says it "soared nearly 40% to $28 on its first day of trading 
Tuesday."  That's what Pete's did, too.   


For the record, the article continues on to say that "Customers got the best deal.  The stock was 
offered initially at $20.  but boston Beer let customers buy up to 33 shares at $15 apiece when 
the IPO was expected to be priced between $10 and $15."

Someone told me that they got nearly 3 times the interest in the consumer
offering than they were prepared to handle.....so if you mailed in the last
day you probably lost out....

This was on an NPR story....
bob

Not too bad a return on $15 :-)

Symbol        : SAM          Exchange    : New York Stock Exchange (NYSE)
Description   : 
Last Traded at: 28.3750      Date/Time   : Nov 29  4:24:13
Volume        : 163900       # of Trades : 285      
Day Low       : 28.0000      Day High    : 29.2500  
52 Week Low   : 26.8750      52 Week High: 33.0000  

- jeff


PS -- NSCP went over $140 today ... all them short sellers must be gettin
pretty damn nervous :-)

    Does anyone know why the ESPP buy price will be, I am hearing 39.00,
    not a bad return.

    Seems I saw somewhere that the ESPP price from June is $37.67. 

    
    
    From VTX stock
     
                              ESPP Price Information
                               FMV   01-Dec-94   32.375  
                               FMV   31-May-95   44.312  
                               ESPP  01-Jun-95   27.750  
                             
    
    
     Divide

    
    The whole stock market raged yesterday.  Good thing too!  I may wait a few
    days and see what happens with the DEC stock.  I think we'll hit 60+.
    
    Q:  How long does it take from when you apply to sell your stock on
        VTX, to when it is actually sold?                                      

    
    > ESPP  01-Jun-95   27.750
    
    Is this true???????  If so, lot's o' people be gittin rich right now.

    How do you sell from VTX, I forget.

    try VTX IS and then follow the destructions

    
    RE:387.177
    
     If your on a VMS system just type in VTX Stock and you'll get the
    info.
    
    >Is this true??????? Your not questioning the honesty of a DSMITH are
    you??
    
      . .
       ,
     \___/
    
    Divide Dave
    
    
    
    

$VTX IS item #2 sez:


 VTX IS                      Common Questions/Answers         Update:
26-Oct-95

    Q:  What is the cut-off for selling?

    A:  The cut-off is 12:00 noon Eastern Time.  VTX IS sell requests are
        time-stamped when you fill in information and use FORM ENTER.

    Q:  Will I get an electronic confirmation?

    A:  Yes, within a few hours of placing your sell request via VTX IS, you
        will receive via E-mail a confirmation from Investor Services that
        your sale order was received for processing.

    Q:  Can I obtain my account balances through VTX IS?

    A:  Presently, no.  Possibly in the future.

    Q:  How do I sell for December 1st, 1995?

    A:  Access the Sell Form, fill in ALL for # Shares to Sell, 01-Dec-1995
        for the Purchase Date, and E for the Plan Type.  (Valid pre-selling
        dates for December 1st are Nov 1 - Nov 30th, 12:00 noon, Eastern US
        Time.)
    Press HELP for options.

>     Q:  How long does it take from when you apply to sell your stock on VTX,
>         to when it is actually sold?

Usually next trading day.  

This is one disadvantage to Digital's ESPP --- you can't get "real time"
service.

- jeff_holding_for_now

>                              ESPP Price Information
>                               FMV   01-Dec-94   32.375  
>                               FMV   31-May-95   44.312  
>                               ESPP  01-Jun-95   27.750  
    
    Yes, it's true, but not what you think.  The 27.750 applies to the last
    period.  For this period, we will be buying at 85% of the lower of the
    FMV on 01-Jun-95 and 30-Nov-95, rounded up to the nearest quarter
    point.  Unless the market crashes today, that means we'll be buying at
    39, as you've heard.
    
    Sid

    Oh, yeah.  If you're wondering where the 39 comes from, the FMV of DEC
    stock on 01-Jun-95 waas 46.625.  85% of that is 38.78125.  Rounded up
    to the nearest quarter point yields 39.
    
    Sid

I'll be xferring my shares to my disc. brok. acnt so
i can set limits, sell immediately, etc...

could go in the feel good news notes as well

12:45pm 12/4/95

DEC 62 3/8  +4 1/2

    What's the deal on the stock $$  ?  Didn't some fed agency shorten the 
    length of time that the company has to release the $$?  like it used to 
    take 10 + working days before you'd get your money.
    
    
    

    re .-1
    
    that's because I sold my stock on friday

Carol:
	I believe you're supposed to receive your check (faster with 
autodeposit) 3-5 days after the sale

    cool!  let's hope it stays up there...  $60 has been a "barrier" of
    sorts...
    
    also, i placed my order to seel on friday, which means they should sell
    today...  i'll take those couple extra bux!  :^)
    
    					da ve

    
    After watching todays rise, combined with the fact Digital is more
    retail oriented this year than ever, I may wait til the week before
    Christmas and sell 1/2 of it to pay bills.  

    
    I rec'd an E-mail sale confirmation for my DEC01 EPP stock sales.
    
    Souled for 58.183  bought at 39
    
    I'll take 49% any day, thank you.
    

    
    63 3/8  and counting.....
    
    C'mon 70!!!!   Let's hear it!!!!!

yes, 60 was a major resistance point (to put in W.S. parlance).
we made a lot of runs at 60, but, never busted thru.  now we have.
i'd say we'll stay in the low 60s, with a few breaks in the sub-60
territory, which i see as a buying oppty.

i'm holding now, but, will sell.
i have a ton of dec stock at this point.
too much.
time to take some profits.

    Very cool development .. I *THOUGHT* I had placed the sell order 
    last month - no check came and after waiting the required amount of
    time one must wait in Wilton for mail (above and beyond normal
    delivery) - I called IS to investigate on monday.  Turns out I had 
    never actually filled in the online form or used the touchtone 
    whatsis.  SOOOOO, I sold this past monday ... not too shabby :-) and
    then with a gieant leap into the 20th century, I set it up to go into
    my DCU directly.  ahhh ... maybe i'll never have to go to the mailbox
    again!!! 
    

an error pays for itself!  not bad carol!


yeah, direct deposit is the only way to fly.
if you get a live check, it takes time to clear.
ACH deposits are avail when they arrive.

jc

    I had the same experience as Carol, I had sold two days before
    we went down almost 70 points, talk about dumb luck. I had
    made an error with the dial up system, and waited weeks for the check,
    remembered to follow up, and just made it before the great crash.

    	
    Normally, I don't watch the money but....
    
    My prediction says Digital stock is probably gonna rage real hard over 
    the next week or so. 

Quarterly numbers are out and look good.  Analysts predicted 87 cents per 
share and we posted 91 (versus 9 cents per share from Q2 a year ago).  
This may very well push the stock up.  Some good Q3 numbers and we will 
be looking at another big stock purchase check.

Jim

so, we're approaching buy time again and it's not looking too great...

what are folks doing this time???  selling right away?  holding for the 
numbers for the year?  

for my part it's both...  i have to retire a credit card so i'll be selling
off some right away, and then holding the rest til the numbers come 
out in hopes that the price goes up...

				da ve

    
    I decided to hold.  This one's gonna be tough...things seem iffy.
    
    I was planning to dump some existing shares I bought at $37, but I'm
    even thinking of sitting on that.

	my daugher got her license.
	my wife needs a new car.
	
	bye-bye dec shares.
	

    last closing price : 51 3/8
    
    

Well, it lowers the starting price for the next stock purchase.

Jim

From the "official" stock quote page...

                          ---ESPP Price Information---
                         |  FMV   01-Dec-95   58.187  |
                         |  FMV   31-May-96   52.187  |
                         |  ESPP  01-Jun-96   44.50   |
                          ---------------------------- 

I chose to hold on for the time being...

Dan

I'm holding for now;
it always dips on the day of the ESPP sale;
I do not need the $$, but i'm over-loaded in DEC at this point.

looking for 57-60 /sh

ideally, 60+

    
    OH NO!!!!  
    
    What the heck are we doing wrong here.
  
    47 3/4

    no news about pending "shove offs". wait till Q1, when the next 5,000
    are let go and if yer lucky enough to be one of the ones left yer stock
    will increase. And if yer not so lucky, you'll still have the stock at
    a higher cash value....and a looooong summer vacation.
    
    
    rfb

	i heard our earnings estimates were lowered by some analysts...
	goldman sacks or something like that...

				da ve	

oh, and don't worry...  it will climb back to a record high soon...

i know, becasue i placed my sell order this morning before i heard the news
about the tumbling prices... :^(

    I think we're in for another setback with our Q4 and FY96 results.
    
    I don't see the company doing much to grow the business despite all the
    lip service from management.  We're still trying to become more
    profitable through cutting, which is a losing strategy.  I'm
    discouraged about our future -- we're constantly setting ourselves up
    to fail despite good products and technical advantages.
    
    I fully expect management to offer us "double or nothing" on DS's Group
    Incentive Plan.  :-)
    
    Jamie

>    to fail despite good products and technical advantages.

	this is what really kills me.   :-(
	
	

    
    I hope our FY96 results will still be positive despite a probable
    Q4 loss.  Hopefully the past 3 quaters will pay for this one. 
    
    Tis painful to watch the stock rise and fall like this.  

probably Q4 loss???  that's the first i've heard of that...

at first i asn't too surprised about the stock coming down since
i'd heard fromothers that it was priced a little higher than it should be...
but i'm bumming now that i didn't place my order to seel it all as soon
as it was bought...  it'l be back to the espp purchase price soon at this
rate...

			da ve

   Once again I'm real glad I sold on the 1st, same day bought...
   Had no choice - needed the $ bad, and it worked out!   

   /Ken

i don't think Q4 will be a loss.  no way.
if it is, DEC will be back to 18 bucks/sh very
fast.  so, if you expect a loss, sell today.!

>    to fail despite good products and technical advantages.

Well, we have some really good products, but we also have a lot of
stinkers that we continue to fund, develop, market and support at a
substantial loss.  Considering the market and our position in it, there
are still quite a few cuts that could be made by simply getting rid of
tangential, non-mainstream products that not only don't make money, but
never have...

IMHO, we're still over-extended.  We'll probably show a profit, but we
could still afford to sell or retire some products - especially software
products.  We could probably unload half of our software products and
profits would jump.

We're also in the midst of a major product transition - OpenVMS is
obviously in the very early stages of end-of-life while Unix is still
gearing up.  I think, in the long run, NT/Alpha is a fantasy that can't be
sustained vs. the Intel juggernaut.  As a result, we have to decide how to
evolve our systems business.  Our numbers are looking better, but the game
is far from over.

I'm in favor of the current product strategy - I just wish more could be
done for employee morale in the process...but given the strategy, that's
nearly impossible.

We could also do with a lot less No Output Deparment management.

tim

I don't think we'll have a loss. To Tim's point, I agree that there's still 
plenty of opportunity to thin the product line. I think we've sold all that 
we can, software-wise in the sense that I don't think there's a market for 
much of what's left and that we want to part with. We need to cut back to 
maintenance then retire and have a good, consistent message and solution 
for customers who use the products.

We've got some great products, but we continue to passively market them and 
onyl on their technological merits. You listen to Sun and you'd think they 
invented the internet. They didn't, but they're so aggressive in their 
message that they can draw customers in spite of their limited 
technological position. Sun & Microsoft do a great job at getting free 
press that gets their names as those associated with hot markets regardless 
of how strong they actually are in those spaces.

We still need to do better on cost side as well. The new Compaq servers are 
alot cheaper than the rawhides with a much smaller difference in 
performance. We need to 1) see what we can do cheaper and 2) actively 
address where we have the advantage and why those advantages are important 
to a customer.

jeff

Sun takes advantage of some pervasive networking myths:

The Internet runs on TCP/IP, which was invented on Unix (Not true)

Sun was the first commercial Unix system (Not True)

...so therefore, Sun invented the Internet (VERY Not True).

In actuality, Sun had nothing to do with the invention of TCP/IP, which
was only an afterthough on Unix, nor the creation of the Internet, nor the
commercialization of Unix.  Hell, we had more to do with the
commercialization of Unix than Sun did - we sponsored the development of
System V.  

What Sun did do brilliantly, as do most enormously successful
entrepreneurs from Thomas Edison to Netscape, was take advantage of other
people's inventions to create a commercial product for which there was not
only a need, there was a screaming DEMAND....

They're the anti-Xerox. ;-)

tim

for the s/w persective, we're not market driven.
requirements are still being dictated by an engineer who
is pretty good at it, but not perfect.   we bust our
butts to produce s/w that sits, because digital cannot
get the freakin' message out, cannot get marketing and engineering
in one room, etc.  my new biz unit, the ISBU, is too busy
appointing VPs and worrying about office moves than shipping
product.  case and point: last week i was nearly ready to ship
to the SSB, but, was held up /cuz we had to pack up 100+ systems
and move from TAY to LJO.  i pushed a request to delay the move to
VP level and the answer was, bite the bullet and move now.  so, we
take a 2-3 day hit on the sched.  it was critical to submit on 12-jun
'cuz that was the last day to guarentee FCS end-of-month, but now, we
submitted 14-jun and we'll FCS 2nd or 3rd wk in july....
i just do not see a collective team effort around my area, and
as i grow older and more knowledgeable, the more frustrating it
gets.

� product.  case and point: last week i was nearly ready to ship
� to the SSB, but, was held up /cuz we had to pack up 100+ systems
� and move from TAY to LJO.  i pushed a request to delay the move to
� VP level and the answer was, bite the bullet and move now.  so, we
� take a 2-3 day hit on the sched.  it was critical to submit on 12-jun
� 'cuz that was the last day to guarentee FCS end-of-month, but now, we
� submitted 14-jun and we'll FCS 2nd or 3rd wk in july....
    
    Sounds like a case for Dilbert!

    Sounds like something to post in the Digital notesfile too.
    That kind of crap should have vanished long ago.

    
    Looks like I may be buyng meself one of those T.I.P.S
    deals.
    
    Very nice!

    
    i must not have been paying attention... what is "one of those
    T.I.P.S. deals"???  can you elaborate some?
    
    					da ve

    >>i must not have been paying attention... 
    
    must be in the air lately

	yeah da ve, PAY ATTENTION dammit!

    thanks Debess...  i was waiting for that...  :^)
    
    i'm still clueless about the T.I.P.S. thingy though...
    
    					da ve

    YES, I am also interested in the TIPS.... I must be losing it...

Deano has been enjoying his macroeconmic too much lately!

TIPS, forget wtf is stands for, are the new inflation-protextion
bonds the feds just came out with.  these are indexed to inflation
thus guarenteeing you a return that will _beat_ inflation over the
course of 10 yrs (they are 10-yr notes).  i think the spread is
inflation + 3 pts.   now, the big question is how to measure inflation,
which is often bouted about by diff economists largely driven
by political affiliation.  

personally, at my age, i would not buy them and instead invest
a litle bit more aggresively in small company stocks (just sent 5g
to the investment doods for more SC stocks and 2x that for a
corp bond fund).  but, for older folks relying on a pretty much guarenteed
hedge against the big "I" (inflation), TIPS are good.

    re: TIPS
    
    No investment instrument is a "sure thing" by itself.  As I understand
    it, the new bonds are designed to counteract some negative feature
    of the old bonds... In certain economic conditions, one type provides
    a better return, under different conditions the other type provides
    a better return.  Over any time period, the two will average out
    to the "standard" bond return (which is probably close to inflation,
    minus broker/handling fees).  Neither type of bond by itself provides 
    a guarantee of beating market cycles, any investment requires
    close attention and luck.   
    
    Standard investment advise is to diversify: Have a mix of investments
    so that, no  matter what the market conditions, at least one part
    of your portfolio making money.  Just as it's impossible (in a free,
    non-manipulated  market) to buy at the lowest, sell at the highest,
    it's impossible to plan a protfolio that will always provide maximum
    return.
    
    IMO, your milage may vary.
    
    /b

    well, obviously the answer is to die young and leave a good looking
    corpse...(unlike the ones on the gross URL about corpse's...UGH!)
    rfb

    
    Yes.  TIPS.  With the threat of inflation on it's way soon, I
    would say TIPS would be a great idea. 

So, i got to figuring my taxes and here are the %ages i pay out to 
the various governments:

% of gross income
going to the tax	tax
----------------	----
16.35% 			FED income tax
5.21%			state (mass)
5.50%			social security
1.45%			medicare
2.63%			real estate (to Groton)

31.15% of our incomes goes to taxes.

some other interesting facts:  my total tax amount
in dollar terms is $11k more than my starting salary
at digital in 1987.  we contributed 9.47% of our
income to 401k programs.
good news is we are getting a return from the feds
which will be much-needed!  bad news is we owe mass
a few hundred, but at least it aint a few grand!!

    we get alittle back,,,very little..but Patty and I were talking about
    that the other nite..Remember when a tax return was spent as "party
    money", now a days it seems to go to some damn bill. 
    
    rfb

    
    Re:31.15% of our incomes goes to taxes.
    
     Wrong JC... You still have to figure sales tax,property tax,fuel tax
    and all the other taxes added in to get a true figure...
    
    Divide

    I just got my taxes done too.  It was the most difficult tax year yet:
    we filed 1040, schedules A, B, C, and D; forms 2441 and 8606; and two
    signed statements due to the AT&T breakup.  I may need to put two
    stamps on this one!
    
    The bottom line was $220 back from the Feds and we owed the state $90. 
    Not bad.  It's hard to believe now, but I had large capital gains from
    sales of DEC stock.  :-/
    
    Jamie

    I went to a tax guy for the first time. Saved me all the hassle.
    Plus he knew a lot of tricks that I wouldn't have ever thought
    of. Result: $720 back from the feds, $140 back from the state.
    Like RFB said, though, this is going right out the door to pay
    bills.
    
    - Dave

    Could we not talk about this?  I'm depressed.  I usually get some back,
    but this year I sold the Spaceship Grady and moved into a smaller
    house, out of necessity, i.e. I needed to pay my lawyer for helping me
    keep my kids, so I'm paying a big one this year....been saving up all
    year...
    
    31% isn't that bad, really.  I'm usually in that ballpark.  Of course,
    if I had lost the custody battle, I'd be paying that plus 38% in child
    support...
    
    And living in a cardboard box.
    
    tim
    

    Is it true that if you are owed a refund, you don't have to file on time?

    State & Fed?

    Thanks 

    Tom

    errr, i don't think so. But you can ask for an extension, can't ya?
    
    rfb

    That requires filling out a form!  Blech!

ya,  have to file on time whether owe or not...or at least have to ask
for an extension by 4/15.  if you owe when you ask for an extension you
have to ay what you owe when asking for the extension (hey, how would
you know thaT??).

bob

      Not true...I just filed my 1993 tax return and I'm getting about
    $500 back...if they owe you, they don't care if you file or not..
    Uncle Sam will be happy to keep your money...

>      Not true...I just filed my 1993 tax return and I'm getting about
>    $500 back...if they owe you, they don't care if you file or not..
>    Uncle Sam will be happy to keep your money...


So what do I know anyway :)

    
    I filed my last years taxes (refund) in June.  No penalties.
    

    also not  quite true... you are *supposed to file* (at least an
    extension) , whether you owe or not.  
    If you file  the extension, they'll stay off your back
    for awhile...  If not, they can get pretty nasty, should they choose...
    
    It's true, if you don't file, and then file for your refund in the
    future, there is usually no hassle.   I happened to catch a bit
    of  Charles this am (button left set from last night ;-(
    the infomercial of the day was some guy pushing a set of books/tapes
    of how to live tax-free...  Name of FitzGerald, I think.  There
    is probably info on the website. 

    as I recall, the extension form requires only your name, address, SSN,
    and the estimated amount owed/overpaid. If you owe, you are supposed
    to pay the full amount estimated.  If, when the final forms are filed,
    you still owe more than 10% of the total tax bill, they *can* start
    charging hefty penalties...
    
    /b

    yeah this guy fought the IRS in federal court and hasn't paid taxes in
    like 10 years                                                     

	give a check to tax deductible charity organiZAtions!

 <-----  I must say I'm enjoying Debess's DylanWeekism's very much!

	something is happenin' here and you do know what it is,
	don't you Mr. Belkin!

you are right divide, there are other taxes too which, by my
estimates, would add perhaps another 1-3% ...


btw, according to the WSJ, the avg american works 2 hrs 29 mins
each day for taxes.  

� btw, according to the WSJ, the avg american works 2 hrs 29 mins
� each day for taxes.  
    
    which is low compared to other "western" countries...
    
    /b

    re;
    the avg american works 2 hrs 29 minseach day for taxes.
    
    which is why i screw off at least 3 hours a day.
    
    %^)
    
    rfb

	Good one rfb!!! :=):-)

    
    What in the world is going on with the stock today?????????????
    
    something positive, thats fer ser.

    >>What in the world is going on with the stock today?????????????
    
    Q2 profit of $51 mill announced today - seems like a pretty favorable
    response to just that however.

    the old 'overstimate how bad things are in your press leaks' tactic,
    I think. We announce .27/share when the media thought we'd be
    announcing around .22/share. We're still way down from $35 just a few
    weeks ago.
    
    - Dave

    
    >the old 'overstimate how bad things are in your press leaks'tactic,
    
    I hear ya.  I'm totally tired of the negative spew.  Over and over
    again I hear the negative comments about "how bad we're doing" and then
    over and over again we end up above water. 
    
    Maybe this whole company needs a good dose!  ;-)

re: sick of negative stuff

well, it is hard to be positive in a dying company, i think.
take a look around... everyone else is doing ok, and digital
is suckin' wind.  what happens when the recession comes?  economic
times are good now, and diigtal is staying slightly afloat, what
happens when companies don't want to spend money???  
palmer has got to go.
i think that is the biggest and best thing that can
happen to digital right now.
our stock sucks.
look at microsoft... up 9 bucks today, 33% of our stock price
in a single day.
so, get out now!

btw, being part of altavista, you would not believe
the difference... everyone is so psyched to LEAVE digital
and become our own place, without the management 
problems and baggage digital has...  it is nice to
be able to hang out w/ the vps and feel comfortable, tell
them what's on your minds, etc... what a diff. vs. digital.

> well, it is hard to be positive in a dying company, i think.
> take a look around... everyone else is doing ok, and digital
> is suckin' wind.

  This is the way I felt until very recently.
  
  3 or 4 recent developments have made me feel more optimistic (Claflin,
  "continuous computing" reconsidered as core competency [theoretically] to
  be applied to 6 of 9 areas (including VMS as high end for NT), high-p
  computing becomes 1 of the 9, consolidation of sales/marketing).

  These changes are way overdue, it may be too late...
  And/or DEC may not have the "vision & courage" to follow through.
  Maybe I'm feeling only a temporary lift because it feels like the
  corporate IQ went up a few notches.
  
  A few more notches and we may learn to market...  - JayC.

maybe it has come up a few notches, but man digital has a lot
to learn about management and running a business. ..there is
this thing around altavista, "think and act like a startup" yet
it is so hypocritcal because nothing is *that* different here.
lots and lots of inexperience: no real focus, politics, business
as usual.  let someone who has a growth agenda and experience to back
it up  take the wheel for a while.....
sorry to be down folks, but that's da facts, like'em or not.
IMO.

    I agree.  No one is willing to take a risk anymore.  Everyone wants to
    play it safe, and that is pure politics...
    

    Growth is now our top priority, we still maintain a strong balance
    sheet, and have mucho cash $2.3B. Without this we would have been
    gone years ago. It will be easy to see if Bruce is successful
    or not, 2-3 quarters will show. At the very least we are squeaking
    out a profit. I do get ill when I see what other companys make
    in profits, and look at our stock price... I am in it for the
    long haul.

Unfortunately I agree with JC (I don't have any problem agreeing with JC, 
just wish it wasn't on such a negative issue). We have never learned that 
good marketing beats good technology. We know we have great products -- 
Alpha, 64 bit UNIX and OpenVMS, NT on Alpha, interoperability between the 
3, clustering, the Alta Vista technologies, etc.  Unfortunately we spend 
alot of time telling ourselves this without EVER effectively communicating 
these to the market. 

Take Digital v. HP. Sometime around the year 2000 they're going to have to 
ship UNIX versions in 32 bit (HP-UX) and 64 bit (Merced, for the FIRST 
time) and have all if not more of the application 
migration/recompile/rewrite/etc. problems we had years ago coupled with the 
Year 2000 issues and trying to put in interoperability with NT that they 
just announced, which will also be 64 bit for the first time in that same 
period. Meanwhile, we have 64 bit UNIX with 64 bit apps, we have 
interoperability between UNIX/NT/VMS. One would think we'd be aggressively 
YELLING this at every opportunity. The only reference I've seen of it is on 
Sun's homepage.

To me the 1-3-9 is not marketing, it's trying to define those areas where 
we feel we can be a leader based on our product and service offerings. What 
is needed is to create a perception. People feel they should use Microsoft 
products (even though there may be better ones out there).  Sun and Compaq 
do phenominal jobs articulating simple messages.  Heck, Dell's a $7b 
company and they've just entered the server market.

If our NT business and our UNIX business are not growing as fast at their 
respective markets, then it seems clear to me we need to do a better job 
determining into what sales situations we should lead with what solution 
and our marketing needs to effectively and consistently back this up.

As far as profitability, I'd contend much of it was due to the 5600 fewer 
people. We've done a fine job reigning in costs but if we're not going to 
aggressively try to grow the business we'll continue to have problems.


jeff

    Jeff, do you think it is hopeless?  Will we ever come out of this?
          Will "good" marketing do it?

I wouldn't say it's hopeless quite yet but the longer we passively sit 
around with the "field of dreams" mentality (if we build it, they will 
come) the faster we'll seal our own fate. We need to combine clear, 
aggressive and consistent (i.e., stop changing our story every 3-6 
months) marketing with focused selling.  What I mean by the latter (it's 
be a while since I was a salesperson) is picking our battles, giving the 
sales and sales support people the knowledge and help to make the sale 
and following up with any and all leads. It seems to me, perhaps I'm 
naive, that for the next 12 to 24 months at least before 64 bit NT, that 
we could define preferred offerings of hardware & operating system for 
general categories, at least to lead with. For example, Telco & large 
ISP's -- Digital UNIX & Alpha, VMS installed base , some 24x7 
situations -- VMS on Alpha, high end desktop UNIX, low to mid desktop NT 
on Intel & Alpha, low to mid servers NT on Intel or Alpha or UNIX 
(depending on the supported underlying applications). Do customers still 
do rfq's where they specify what they want?

I also think we need to be brash, which I know has never been Digital's 
nature. We should boldly state plans such as "we are going to be THE 
systems provider for ISP's, or Telco's or banks..." It'll probably tick 
off the Sun's & HP's but it might send a message to customers that we 
don't plan on dying off but will fight for their business.

Conversely, if we reorg the field a few more times, don't do anything 
about the flood levels of engineering attrition and fail to be 
aggressive in standing up for ourselves, we'll slowly die off selling to 
and increasingly smaller installed base.


jeff

    rantly yes...  but i liked it too....  :^)

    
    good rant... I think there is a Business Week article that 
    agree with you also.

    
    I think Digital can rage up a storm if everyone puts on a positive
    mindset.  That combined with the right tools, the right mgmt, and the 
    right structure, we can rip the marketplace apart.  
    
    It would be nice if we had an operating system that utilized 64 bit 
    (besides PU-nix...) to it's limits.  But hey, we're only supplying the
    fastest processor in the world....No big deal.  NOT!!!!!!
    
    I think there's some real shitty mgmt out there that doesn't know a 
    good resource if it were to fall on top of them.  Big problem with this
    company...IMO. 
    
    But hey, we can still rage.  Take a look at the stock.  It's going up.
    
    If you don't believe in Digital, then for Gods sake, get a job
    somewhere you do believe in.

    re: last
    
    ya right....
    
    re:get a job...
    
    I did, 
    
    you must have taken some DEC touchy feely classes lately Dean-o...%^)
    
    rfb_used to like DEC, no love lost over Digital

    a kinder and gentler deane

              <<< Note 387.275 by ICS::SMITHDE "So many roads" >>>

    
>    I think Digital can rage up a storm if everyone puts on a positive
.
.
.    
>    It would be nice if we had an operating system that utilized 64 bit 
>    (besides PU-nix...) to it's limits.  But hey, we're only supplying the

Are you in line for a management job?  Perhaps politics?

Talk about saying 2 different things in 2 sentences.

:)

I think digital has a very very tough road ahead of itself.
attrition is NOT abating.
ever try to hire a software engineer ?
ever get one in the door to interview??
let me tell you, it is tough.
contractors, typically not much of a problem.
full-timers? forget it.
who wants to work for a loser?

and i agree with jeff totally: our marketing program sucks.
look at microsoft.  the difference is microsoft **creates** markets
while digital tries to figure out how to spell "marketing".  that is
the big reason why MS is so freaking successful... they are excellent
at creating mkts (remember NT 4 years ago?  i doubt you would because
it wasn't a product at that time, but now, it is a HUGE revenue
base for MS, and climbing steadily, past UNIX, past the rest... an
excellent example of a market created... remember, NT was NOTHING 4
years ago... go ask your buddies what VMS is then ask them what NT
is... most people will say "Huh?" to VMS and "oh, yeah, that's microsoft's
OS" to NT.).  marketing, perception, success.

my own take is Palmer has got to hit the road.
all of those B.O.D. members that have been there since the first
days have to retire and hit the road.... business times have changes
and the B.O.D. has stayed in the old 60s, 70s mindset...

    
    re - Bob
    
    I don't see the difference or the likeness between the 2 statements?
    
    re - onward
    
    As for a good attitide.  Now I work in a department where I am
    respected, treated well, *and* *listened* *to*.  What a difference!!!!!
    
    furthermore...
    
    All day I'm resolving issues with people who are selling our products.
    If I had a poor attitude, it would probably rub off to people we need 
    to be very positive about Digital.  The people that call and give me
    the garbage probably aren't selling garbage.   

re: psoitve thinking
deano mentions positive thinking... this is yet another big
problem which i would characterize more as morale.  morale is
in the dumper!  ever see palmer roaming the halls, eating w/ the
troops?  ever see any VPs mingling with us low-lifes (ok, i'll speak
for my self here :-) ?  nope.
i was jus telling my mgr... i can work 60 hrs a week and get something
in on time or i can work 40 hrs and get something in late.  the
same result occurs: I make my same salary.  zero incentive for me
to jam many hours other than the prospect of getting 7% insterad of
3% raise.  really folks, the 4% diff ain't much these days when taxes
are worked into the picture.
lets get some incentives in place.
stock options, bonuses, etc.
and some ACCOUNTABILITY !!
those mgrs running losing businesses need to be held accountable and
those mgrs running projecxts that are successfull need to be rewarded
along with their teams for their success....
we're just releasing the next version of tunnels today
(*ahhh!)
next cycle, i'm goign to ask for incentives, and i'll be
dissappointed if they decline.  incentives offered to a team
will do a lot for the productivity of everyone, i think.,.. at
least that is what i've learned in b-school, and by talking
with people here, it seems to be something that would motivate
my team to pull together even more.

>    re - Bob
>    
>    I don't see the difference or the likeness between the 2 statements?

Well, Deano, just what is your attitude towards Unix?  Mentioning it
as PU-nix seems to give the impression that you don't think too highly 
of it.  Of course this may be your attitude towards Unix in general
and not Digital Unix in particular, which is still the only 64bit
Unix in the market.  

PeterT

    
    Right, I despise Unix.  I wasted more time learning a system that
    continues to be more and more cryptical as I attempt to understand it
    more and more.
    
    I hope that MS produces an NT product that harnesses the 64 bit
    capability to it's fullest extent.  
    
    Digital did not produce Unix.  

Well, we may not have invented unix, but the first unix was developed
on a Digital machine, so the association goes way back.  Sure, it's not 
the OS for the common man, but it gets the job done, does it better than
some others, and it exists on more platforms than any other OS.
It generates money for Digital, so please don't denigrate it to our
customers.  Not that I think you would, of course.  It pays my salary,
certainly.  I haven't really had the opportunity to play around with
NT, so I can't comment on it, but for my personal tastes, I'd rather
have a unix box than anything else.  Now if they only did a Real Audio
port...  (available for Linux on Alpha's but not for DU, sigh....)

PeterT

> ever try to hire a software engineer ?

  Actually there's a positive experience to report...  OEM/realtime was
  placing an ad for h/w and s/w positions, and actually debated whether to
  prominently say DIGITAL.  (Negative image, etc.)
  
  They went ahead and labelled it DIGITAL and there was a flood of
  responses.
  
  That being said, I have no idea what it's like elsewhere in the company.
  Might not have been a typical ad in various respects.       - JayC.

re:              <<< Note 387.283 by ICS::SMITHDE "So many roads" >>>
    
>    Right, I despise Unix.  I wasted more time learning a system that
>    continues to be more and more cryptical as I attempt to understand it
>    more and more.
    
	Alright Deano!   I wholeheartedly agree with you about unix.
	Been saying the same thing for years.  I dislike it because 
	it's so damned crypticm, *intentionally* cryptic even.
	
	/Ken

Ok,  I see where you all are coming from.  But I'll attempt to tie this
back to Deano's comments re:  if all were positive about DEC then good
things can happen (I usually don't talk work in this file).

Anyhow,  I took exception because you all may not like UNIX but who cares
whether *you* like UNIX or not?  We should sell it for what it's worth until 
NT can carry the high end.  We should have done the same for VMS as well.
Until we do that we'll continue to let SUN and HP sell UNIX and beat us
in the market for time to come.  

just a comment from
bob

    JC, dude...  things aren't quite the same all over...  i routinely 
    run into "VP types" in the halls...  it's not the least bit unusual
    for them (uh, 4 different VPs) to tell me "good morning" *and* refer 
    to me by my first name... and trust me when i tell you, there aren't
    too many "lower lifes" than i...  
    
    and in general...
    
    as for all the comments abou marketing and sales stuff, i agree with
    Jeffs note too...  consistant marketing and focussed selling efforts
    are important and this is a lesson being learned all over the
    company...  it would be stooopid to argue that DIGITAL was ever a
    marketing power... :^)  but it's equally as silly to say that we can't
    market at all...  there are a lot of folks working hard to make things 
    happen as far as programs for the field and such...  i know, it's in
    front of me every day...  "DIGITAL can't market it's way out of a wet
    paper bag" is a mantra of sorts in some corners...  problem is, a lot
    of these people don't even know what marketing is, other than pink
    battery operated bunnies, sexy women drooling over beer swilling men,
    or, to stick with our industry, break dancin' clean room employees...
    
    the answer is more complicated than firing Bob Palmer and making tv
    ads...   some of us would do well to remember that  Bob may well have 
    saved the company, difficult as it has been... we were losing what, 
    $4 MILLION *per day* when he took over???  change is traumatic, and 
    institutional change is going to affect a lot of people...  the man 
    made some tough calls and pissed off a lot of folks but we're still here...
    
    now, most of you know me pretty well and i'm not the biggest fan of 
    DIGITAL and what we've become...  so this is not just rah-rah crap...
    sure, things were a lot better years ago...   but this aint then...
    everythings different now...  Deane's got a popint abou postive
    attitudes...  we're our own wort critics but we're not the only ones
    listening...  how many times has a pissed off employee gotten published
    in the globe with stuff that turns out to be mostly sour grapes?  the
    whining time is over...  it's become an incredibly tedious pattern...
    i wish as a company we could just "get over it and get a life"...
    
    					da ve 
    

    I agree, we need to get on with it, as a "field " type person
    I have seen our brightest, and best reps leave this company
    due to compensation issues (not getting commission paid on time),
    too many account changes, and having to apply for their jobs
    all of this within the past fiscal year. 
    
    I am also hearing that the newest reorg (happening right now in
    Cambridge) is the last chance to get it right, or.....
    
    Should be a fun FY98.

re: the UNIX comments


there is a guy in my office here who is a big Win 95 fan.
i always say "95 sucks, NT rules".  technically, this is a true
statement 'cuz 95 just does not handle heavy load as much as NT
does;  you start trying to get 95 to do 10 apps at once, and it
has a very hard time, whereas NT tends to perform a whole lot
better.  but, this guy always calls my attention to the installed base.
40M 95 installs, 1.5M NT installs or so.  it may suck, but it has
a huge mkt share.

UNIX may suck, but it too has a big mkt share.
You ain't gonna make any money doing VMS these days.

         <<< Note 387.288 by ALFA1::DWEST "i believe in chemo girl!" >>>

>    JC, dude...  things aren't quite the same all over...  i routinely 
>    run into "VP types" in the halls...  it's not the least bit unusual
>    for them (uh, 4 different VPs) to tell me "good morning" *and* refer 
>    to me by my first name... and trust me when i tell you, there aren't
>    too many "lower lifes" than i...  
 
well, that is good to hear.
I wonder how many other people in here are referred to by name
by their VP...
   
>    the answer is more complicated than firing Bob Palmer and making tv
>    ads...   some of us would do well to remember that  Bob may well have 
>    saved the company, difficult as it has been... we were losing what, 
>    $4 MILLION *per day* when he took over???  change is traumatic, and 
>    institutional change is going to affect a lot of people...  the man 
>    made some tough calls and pissed off a lot of folks but we're still here...
 
when BP took over, HP was having trouble too.
We were neck-and-neck w/ HP for the #2 computer company in the world
in temrs of revenue....
Today, HP has revenues over $20 B.
We have actually LOST revenue year-over-year to what, $12.5B /yr?
HPs stock is up, has split (i believe), where as our stock is still below 30.
No shareholder value at digital.
The difference is HP had a growth plan, BP did not.
yeah, cutting had to be done, but the answer to all of
digital's woes is not to cut,cut,cut until you have nothing left.
BP *still* doesn't have a growth plan.
wall st. doesn't invest in companies who's strategy is to cut to
attain profitability.  
wall st. invests in companies like HP, Intel, MFST, etc that continues
to deomontrate GROWTH.

that is my biggest beef with Palmer.
NO GROWTH PLAN !
NO growth plan = no shareholder value = low share price.

    
    I make a point of hyping out our products to friends, relatives,
    neighbors etc.  We really do have some good products (be it their
    running Unix or not ;-).  I have to admit..most the young folk over 
    at school are strictly NT so it's rubbed off on me.
    
    Like I said before, I'm on the front lines now.  I can't be complaining
    about much to these folks besides this gray weather.  :-)
    
    fwiw: Word is out that our stock has been rising.  Got several calls 
    	  last night from friends.
      

Stock's up mostly due to the pull of IBM's announced earnings (heck, 
they're up 10 pts today.

Instead of getting into the Operating System wars, which seem to haunt 
this company like a bad rash, we should decide what situations we want 
to push each of the 3 (there's still some good coin to be made with VMS 
and the $100k server market for UNIX grew over 100% last year) and 
consistently apply our decisions.  64 bit NT won't be out for at least 2 
years. I like NT but if we forego UNIX sales of big systems to basically 
wait we won't have a company to worry about selling 64 bit NT.

jeff