Conference rdvax::grateful

So they've managed to clone human embryos.  Here's an idea - clone an embryo,
and freeze the clone for 20+ years, then implant it in the uterus of the
original, and presto!  Mom gives birth to a copy of herself!

Dizzying, the possibilities ... 

    re:  cloning human embryos
    
    I saw that on the news the other day.  It makes me a little nervous. 
    It is going to be regulated to control the creations of superhumans and
    a master race.  This is like something from a movie....

What's the matter with creating superhumans and a master race?
We'll just build in a four year life span, and hire Harrison
Ford to shoot them dead if they ever dare come back to Earth....

:-)

tim

I was totally unsurprised at how the Catholic Church jumped on this one and
declared it a heinous sin.  It gives one a warm fuzzy feeling to belong to
such an anachronistic religion.  At least I don't practice at it.

For an interesting take on clones, might I suggest David Brin's latest
book?  "Glory Season"  A brief synopsis with no spoilers that you won't
find in the inner cover.  Stratos is a planet that has broken away from 
the "Human Phylum".  Reproduction is basically by cloning, though no 
unnatural methods are used, ie no machines are involved.  All clones are
copies of their mothers of course, and basically become dynasties filling 
certain niches.  Clones are concieved during the long winter (highly 
elliptic orbit with 1 Stratos year = 3 earth years) and require 'sparking'
by a man.  During the summer, 'vars' are concieved and born, much the 
way we are familiar with, mixing the genetic material of a father and
a mother.  Vars are sort of the underclass of society, and men (all
vars of course) are somewhat below this.  The story basically follows
the adventures of one such female var during some interesting times 
in Stratos' history.
Well, there's maybe a 'bit' more info than you might find on the inner 
liner, but nothing that will give away anything.  And you remember the
old computer game, life, where you fill in parts of a grid and then set
things in motion, and various patterns arise and fall, depending on some
simple proximity rules?  Well, suffice to say it has found an interesting
niche in this book.
I'd highly recommend this book.  I was bummed when I finished it, because
I'd have to go on to reading somewhat more normal books afterwards!

PeterT

    I'll have to talk with my sister about this cloning thing. I think I
    know where she stands on it, but it is closer to her work than mine. 
    
    	But for some reason I've become far more interested in getting my
    (chim-)chimeny swept. 
    
    Geoff_who'll_probably_change_a_water_pump_&_tune_a_pair_of_skis_first

    re .1058
    
      Peter, cloning raises many, many ethical questions that are of grave
    concern to a *lot* of people.  Off the top of my head I worry (am
    concerned about):
    	cloning used to produce 'perfect children'
    	the destruction of embryos deemed less than perfect
    	removing the 'love' from the act of procreation
    	cloning copies of people without their permission or knowledge
    
      That's just the tip of the iceberg.  
    
      I take (mild) exception to your comment about the Catholic Church. 
    What was the point?  Did it relate to the issue at all?  Regarding the
    first question, I can see no point other than to slam the Church for
    some personal reason and as to the second question, I don't think it
    relates at all.
    
      Concerns, moral, ethical, legal, about cloning are not exclusive to
    the Catholic Church or to individual Catholics, Baptist or Jews.  Some
    questions of morality cross religious lines and this is one of them.
    
      Nothing personal as it is a good thing to disagree and still respect
    another opinion.  I just felt that the reference to the Catholic Church
    was uncalled for.
    
      Marv
    

The ability to control genetic material in human embryos may mean that in
the future, genetic disorders such as physical and mental defects could be
corrected, and an end to many genetic-related diseases.

I see many potential benefits, that are likely to be misconstrued in a
frenzy of B-grade-sci-fi speculation and religious rhetoric.

re:  Cloning 

They've been doing it for years with cows, horses, sheep (for all you
lonely folks out there :) and lots of other animals/livestock.  I don't mean 
to say it's not a scientific achievment (it is) but do mean to say it is
just a "natural progression".

so why did I enter this?  just to point out they've been cloning things
for years.

bob

    re .8
    
      Cloning of tissue, particularly rats and sheep, has been going on for
    a while now.  However no one, anywhere, has ever cloned a complete
    organism.  
    
      Theory says "YES" but technology still says "NO".
    
    Marv
    

                     <<< Note 378.9 by WITNES::MACINTYRE >>>

No Marv,  They've been cloning cattle eggs for a while now.  They can 
repeatedly split the egg to make a lineage/style/features of the cow 
(or other animal) that they want.

I'm no expert at all this - I just heard about it recently.....

And the only problem they are worried about is when they have a lot of these
cattle they all act the same - then you get a disease that they are suseptible
too and BOOM your whole herd dies.

Also,  Thouroughbred horses can't be cloned (reduces a stud owners fee).

bob

Marv, sorry if I offended you about the reference to the Catholic Church.
After 8 years of Catholic elementary school, and being an altar boy, I 
eventually grew to disagree with many of their positions, particularly
relating to sex, birth control, and the status of women in the church.
I still believe they provided me with a fine moral upbringing, along with
my parents, and while I don't actively practice anymore, I wouldn't
want to suggest that practicing Catholicism isn't a good thing to do.
As one of my elementary school teachers (a nun I believe, though it
may have been a lay teacher) said once, "I'd rather be considered a Christian
than a Catholic" and that's something I can live with.  So that's my
stand and personal pet peeve with the Catholic Church.  

As for it being relevant to the issue, ummmm, I don't know.  I was remarking
on the fact that along with the news that these scientists had cloned
'unviable' human embryos, most newscast also threw in the fact that the
announcement had been condemned by the Catholic Church.  In light of the
recent encyclical from Pope John Paul II, I was just commenting that 
I was not surprised by their stand.  Perhaps I phrased it a bit sarcastically,
or obnoxiously.  Again, sorry if I offended.

Yes there are certainly a number of moral issues that need to be considered.
In many ways the idea is unappealing to me.  Genetic engineering, which is 
to me an entirely separate issue, also has moral complications, but I can 
see a lot of good that can come from this, basically the correcting, or 
eliminating of genetic defects, without resorting to abortion if an
embryo is discovered to carry one of these defects.  

Cloning, as described by these scientists, has certainly been around in 
farm animals for quite some time, and as you note, of certain tissues
in the laboratory.  The typical science fiction idea, as illuminated in
"Jurassic Park" of cloning a whole organism from a single cell or random 
tissue sample, does not yet exist that I know of.

PeterT

    PeterT
    
    No problem.  I just wanted to go on record.
    
    I see a yin/yang type thing here.  For every potential benefit there is
    a potential drawback.  A balanced discussion has to acknowledge the
    downside potential along with everything else.
    
    Perhaps cloning techniques can be used to eliminate spinal bifida or
    forever rid families the pain of dealing with a severely retarded
    child.  That might be good if it were not for the negative potential
    that cloning techniques could bring.
    
    For example, say in some future time, someone decides there are too
    many women.  Clone men only until a desired level is reached.  Not
    enough miners?  Clone a human hybrid that is immune to black lung, has
    great strength and is mentally sharp enough to operate the gear but not
    so smart to be tormented by the unsafe and boring work/lifestyle.
    
    My only point is that we cannot let science and technology outstrip our
    human ablilty to deal with so a complex question.  
    
    Most people do want the world to be blown to bit by the thousands of
    nuclear weapons we now have.  The scientist *gave* us the bomb and
    *forced* us to deal with its consequence.  I don't think the biological
    scientists should thrust something with such dangerous potential into
    our laps just for the sake of science.
    
    Marv
    

    ya but, we could clone GOOD deadheads and REALLY have  a family!!!!
     %^)
    rfb

I understand your points Marv, and I think the benefits and dangers are
pretty easy to see.  At least, with all the science fiction that I read,
these ideas have been going around for a long time, and reality is starting
to catch up to some of them.
I think the bomb analogy needs a bit of expanding though.  While science
developed the bomb, the military and the world at war sort of forced the
situation.  From what I've seen, read, and heard about the scientists involved
in the project, many were very aware of the implications that it represented
and did have some moral doubts about it.  We were racing against the
German's development which was suspected to be close to producing a bomb.
Interestingly, recent notes indicate that Neils Bohr who headed the 
German bomb development (at least I think it was Neils, but regardless,
the head of development) may have deliberately slowed down the German's
progress in atomic bombs by doing miscalculations and searching down
blind alleys.  You have to love someone like that!

The type of cloning that we can do today basically involves taking eggs
fertilized outside of uteruses and separating them at the two, four, and
eight cell stage, each of which is capable of growing into a full identical
organism.  I think after separating them, you can also further separate
them after they start developing again.  No genetic engineering involved,
just a lot of copies, some of which may be delayed in development by 
freezing and storing.  In human's this is basically a straight development
step in the work that's been done in invitrio fertilization.  The scientists
involved seemed to understand the moral ethics of this by choosing embryo's
that could not develop to full term, but it's still approaching a fuzzy 
grey area.  Have we opened up Pandora's box?  I'm not really sure, but
I'd like to think that we will use this technique, it at all, in responsible
sensible ways.  Time will tell.

PeterT

    
    
    ST STEPHENNNNNNNNNNNNNNN   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!