Conference rdvax::grateful

Here's a kinda neat thought, from "The Astronomers" series on PBS ...

When you look further and further out into space, you're seeing further
back in time, closer to the point of the Big Bang ... at some point you
would see the "edge" of the known Universe, with nothing beyond it ... but
if you could look even further, you'd see the glow of the B.B. itself.

Beyond that, I reckon you'd see Jerry ....

- DC

    I've been there!!!
    
    rfb

>    I've been there!!!

You mean, you're not there anymore?  ;-)

tim

Well, yes, that's true, but only if your believe in the Big Bang theory...

Fog,_proponent_of_the_"little_fart"_theory_of_the_universe_:-)

    
    I definately want to go there!  Maybe next week in Vegas!!!!
    
    :-)
    
    MJ

>Well, yes, that's true, but only if your believe in the Big Bang theory...

>Fog,_proponent_of_the_"little_fart"_theory_of_the_universe_:-)

let me guess, it's all a government conspiracy, right?

/rich

I've been there too, it involved a strobe light and 
and some of those velvet black light posters from the
70's.  Had alittle help from Jerry too.

Jeff

MJ,

rfb is a tour guide to the Big Bang.  He can definitely
show you where it's at...;-)

tim

    
    sign me up!  
    
    I've guided (and been guided on) a few tours myself!  ;-)
    
    
    MJ
    

Fog,

You should definitely believe in the Big Bang.  Nine months after the bib 
bang is when you get the little farts:-)

Geoff

:-)

I took an astronomy class as an undergraduate 4-credit science course (it was
this or something gross like pysucks or chemistry).  i had a fun time in this
class and enjoyed it quite a bit, even though i was a complete lush at the
time (always packed a 1/2 pint or a pint of SoCo to class w/ me along with a
few other treats).   despite my impairments, i still got into it, and the 
teacher liked me 'cuz i was enthusiastic!  i think i got a 4.0 in the class
too!!!  


fun stuff...

but, definitely need a dark sky for best viewing.

    
    
    anyone see the article recently about the space billboard???  i think i
    was even in yesterday's VNS....
    
    apparently a spacecraft about a mile across will have refective letters
    on it and companies that have environmental connections will be
    sponsoring it and advertising on it...  apparently it will be as bright
    as the moon and appear between the size of a half moon and a full
    mooon...  companies will put thier logo on it and it will be visible
    for about 10 minutes at a stretch from most everywhere on earth...
    apparently it's not a permanent orbiter and will eventually re-enter
    the atmosphere and burn up... 
    
    astonomers are furious since light pollution on earth is already making
    it difficult to see space from observatories here on earth...  the
    designers are trying to tell them that their fears are unfounded...
    
    just what we need...  billboards in space...
    
    					da ve

    I'd be up for a party some night.  Unfortunately the summer is not as
    good as the winter for stargazing but it sure is easier staying outside
    late in the summer.  I have a reflector type scope and use it from time
    to time.  I like and know the winter sky much better than the summer
    sky.  My fav is viewing the Orion nebula.
    
    Full moon viewing is cool but it is so bright that you cannot
    distinguish the contrast between surface features.  With a good scope
    moon watching is best during the new moon faze.
    
    Oatbran and a steady scope can make hours melt away.
    
    Marv
    

    	Does anyone have a scope that can accomodate any sort of film
    plane?  Something about good optics, I want to have a film plane behind
    'em. 
    
    Geoff
    

    There are several ways of doing astro-photography.  It sounds like
    you're thinking of a Schmidt camera, which is essentially a telescope
    just for photography, ie it ONLY allows a film plane.  But you can 
    attach a camera to most serious scopes (not like the tasco you 
    find in department stores)).  There are three basic variations.
    The only one I've done is piggy-back photography, where the camera is
    attached to a scope with a clock drive, but does not look through the
    scope itself.  This allows tracking of the stars and longer exposures.
    You can guide the scope (even with a clock drive you get some errors
    in tracking) to get pinpoint images instead of trails or blobs ;-)
    Then you have the basic setup where you have the camera in place of
    the lens you would normally look through.  This more or less requires
    an off-axis guider which is a setup that extends a small prism 
    into the light path right before the camera.  This allows you to find a 
    guide star to help in tracking the scope.  This is the method I'd like 
    to use next but I've got to save my money for the off-axis guider and
    a declination motor.  
    The third method is a "through the lens" setup, which puts the camera
    body behind the lens.  This allows you to switch lenses for various 
    magnifications.  I think you may use an off axis guider here again, 
    but I'm not sure if there's enough room in the light path to accomadate
    it.
    
    PeterT
     

re                    <<< Note 348.14 by TRACTR::MACINTYRE >>>

>    Full moon viewing is cool but it is so bright that you cannot
>    distinguish the contrast between surface features.  With a good scope
>    moon watching is best during the new moon faze.
    
Marv, you can get a moon filter which will help out with that ... screws
into the other end of the tube holding the eyepiece (still don't quite
have that 'scope vocab down yet).

- dc

re:         <<< Note 348.13 by ROULET::DWEST "if wishes were horses..." >>>
>                          -< billboards in space... >-
>
>    
>    
>    apparently a spacecraft about a mile across will have refective letters
>    on it and companies that have environmental connections will be
>    sponsoring it and advertising on it...  apparently it will be as bright
>    as the moon and appear between the size of a half moon and a full
>    mooon...  companies will put thier logo on it and it will be visible

When we have the technology to build and launch a mile-long craft into space,
let me know. :-)

Sound interesting, anyway.  Capitalism at its best.

adam

    
    i believe it is a small craft that folds out and expands to that
    size...
    
    					da ve

    I didn't get a chance to comment on this space eyesore earlier...but I
    sincerely hope that someone comes to their senses and shoots this idea
    before it gets serious.  And shoots the idiot who came up with it too.
    
    This is not doubt some Republican's interpretation of "dual use"
    defense technology.  Time to start handing out the red wigs and big
    floppy shoes to these folks again.  Jeez.
    
    tim
    

More info on the space billboard in the latest topics in SHAWB2::ASTRONOMY
... pretty depressing stuff.  Depressing mostly that human beings could
even consider implementing such an idea ... but that's just me, I guess.

- dc

    No dc, thats not just you.  I find it pretty sad that people today feel
    that there isn't enough advertisement already.  Now they want to go
    to the extent of polluting our view of the stars......thats
    advancement?
    
    	Mike

Time to warm up that anti-aircraft(spacecraft) gun...

Geoff

Geoff,

This is one instance where I'll temporarily waive my anti-gun
stance, and be available upon request to pull the trigger...;-)

tim

    I knew all that work we did with rockets when we were kids would 
    come in handy again.  We can have a subversive rocket group dedicated
    to keeping the stars free.  We have the technology, all we need to
    worry about is BATF.
    
    Judy (who had an interesting and explosive childhood)
    

Billboard Guerillas...BG's..

;-)

tim

>>Billboard Guerillas...BG's..

The Monkey Wrench Gang LIVES!!!

;-)

           <<< SHAWB2::DISK$USERS0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]ASTRONOMY.NOTE;2 >>>
                 -< For discussion of all things astronomical >-
================================================================================
Note 654.1               Oracle Bones, Earth's Rotation                   1 of 1
VERGA::KLAES "Quo vadimus?"                          99 lines  17-JUN-1993 15:51
                -< Celestial origin of Chinese calendar found >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From:	US1RMC::"[email protected]" "Ron Baalke" 17-JUN-1993 
To:	[email protected]
CC:	
Subj:	Chinese Calendar Mystery Solved

PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICE
JET PROPULSION LABORATORY
CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION
PASADENA, CALIF. 91109. TELEPHONE (818) 354-5011

Contact: Jim Doyle
JUNE 10, 1993

     Astronomers from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory and the U.S. Naval
Observatory have solved the ancient mystery of the origin of the
Chinese calendar, it was reported to the 182nd meeting of the American
Astronomical Society today in Berkeley, Calif. 

     Kevin Pang of JPL and John Bangert of the Naval Observatory said
they have found a date in 1953 B.C. when the Sun, Moon, and five
planets all lined up in the sky at dawn -- providing the basis for the
beginning of the Chinese calendar. 

     The astronomers used planetary positions in ancient times --
available in JPL's ephemerides, or database of planetary motions -- to
pinpoint the date. 

     "Humans have always regarded such rare celestial encounters with
awe and foreboding," Pang said.  "Recent planetary conjunctions have
simultaneously raised hopes for the dawning of the Age of Aquarius and
portents for the world's apocalyptic end," he said. 

     Although alignments of Jupiter, Mars, and other planets have been
followed by neither, that has not discouraged new speculations about a
coming conjunction of the Sun, Moon, and five planets in the constellation 
Aries on May 5, 2000 A.D., Pang said. 

     Pang suggests that Westerners' fear of such heavenly signs may
have been ingrained by the 1345 A.D. planetary conjunction in the
constellation Aquarius, which was followed by the Black Death that
killed one-third of Europe's population. 

     In contrast, he said, Orientals have always considered a
five-planet alignment as a favorable omen, signaling the dawn of a new
age and the world's renewal. 

     While the beginning of a day is dawn, a five-planet conjunction
occurring at dawn, with a new Moon, and the start of spring would
truly be the beginning of all cycles, he said.  For calendar makers,
such a moment would also be an ideal starting point for counting days,
months, years, and planetary periods. 

     "From the 13th Century B.C. they looked for that moment," Pang
said.  "The quest motivated the ancient Chinese to build ever better
clocks, better instruments, and observatories.  They had a vast network
of observers.  They finally concluded that such a magic moment never
did occur and ended the search in 1280 A.D." 

     Later, Jesuit missionaries in China, using formulas based on
Johanne Kepler's laws of planetary motion, took up the search again but
they also failed, Pang said. 

     The date they suggested for the magic moment, February 28, 2449
B.C., is incorrect, yet is still listed in a Guinness book of
astronomical records. 

     In the latest search for the Holy Grail of Chinese astronomy,
Pang and Bangert were aided by computer-generated planetary
ephemerides and a clue from an ancient text. 

     Pang found a passage in a 1st century B.C. text of Hong Fan
Zhuan, that says:  "The Ancient Zhuanxu calendar (invented in about
2000 B.C.) began at dawn, in the beginning of spring, when the Sun,
new Moon, and five planets gathered in the constellation Yingshi
(Pegasus.)"  The book was written by Liu Xiang who lived from 77 to 9
B.C. 

     Pang said this was all the hint he and Bangert needed.  A computer
search of planetary positions in the 2000 B.C. era gave only one
possible match -- March 5, 1953 B.C. 

     Before dawn on that day, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn
lined up like a pearl necklace in the eastern sky, next to the Great
Pegasus Square, he said.  The planets all spanned but a few degrees. 
The new Moon occurred shortly thereafter when the Sun, Moon, and five
planets all lined up in Pegasus, exactly as Liu had stated. 

     The dawn of March 5, 1953 B.C. was indeed the beginning of a day,
month, year, and all known planetary cycles, the magic moment Chinese
and Jesuit astronomers searched for over 2,000 years, Pang said. 

     ___    _____     ___
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | [email protected]
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | Don't outlive your money.
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | 
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     | 

Anybody looked up at night lately?

The moon has been rising quite late, and the clear skies late at
night, like after 11pm, has made for some amazing views of the stars.
For the past week or so, I've been going out on my deck around 11 or
12 just to check it out.  It's been very impressive...

tim

Yep, I have.  Even in Nashua, I'm seeing some impressive skies.  Maybe
I'll head up North one of these evenings with a pair of binoculars, a boombox
and some Dead tapes.  :^)

I get a little bit of light on the eastern horizon, which seems to
descrease as it gets later - it's probably just lights from around
Littleton Common.  There's a rather visible swath of the Milky Way
across the sky.  Very pretty.

tim

    I notice i tlast night when I went out to roll up the windows in my car
    it was so cool I even strained my neck looking ! ouch !!
    
    Chris

    hmmm... synchronicity. I wandered outside last night and noticed how
    beautiful the stars looked. I figured it was because the atmos had
    finally stopped trying to condense around me.
    
    gary

It's been like that for a week or so - but last night was the most
comfortable for temperature and humidity.

Clear skies, no moon, and insomnia....;-)

tim

    	Yah, rear decks are great aren't they?!!! 
    I have a street light which does a great job of obscuring my star
    gazing, but I did watch a satalite fly by the other night.

Sigh... I've heard someone else mention this too.  Unfortunately I've 
been spending most nights the last few weeks hanging sheetrock in 
the basement.  Sometimes I'll step out for a few minutes before I hit
the sack and kick myself for missing a good seeing night.  I wonder if
the Pinatubo dust has finally settled?  Given the heat, it seems likely.
I'm at the point now though where I'm about to reach and impass with the
sheetrock until we order some more.  I've got a few small pieces left from
the first two sheets I ruined, but the usable portions will be gone soon.
maybe this weekend I'll take the scope out again (just in time for the
clouds to roll in ;-)
  
What I'm looking forward to are the Persieds next month.  The moon will
be about new, and with Swift-Tuttle just past, this should be a 
good year.  Some people are prediciting a meteor storm over
in Europe or Asia, but I'll settle for a few bright ones.

PeterT

Uh-oh.  We woke up someone who knows what they're talking about.

Time to hide, or change the subject...;-)

tim

>    gazing, but I did watch a satalite fly by the other night.

Any idea what time it was, Geoff?  Sky and Telescope had a recent article 
about spotting the Mir space station this summer.  If it was pretty bright
this could well have been it.  I think I have the article with me and can 
cross check.  Hmm, nope that issue must be at home right now.

I was out last night for a few minutes and caught the Milky Way, but it
didn't seem particularly bright out.  But I didn't really give myself
time to adjust, and I'm somewhat spoiled living in the woods! 

PeterT

    Do you know what dates the Perseids are supposed to be visible?
    
    gary

> Uh-oh.  We woke up someone who knows what they're talking about.
> 
> Time to hide, or change the subject...;-)

Hey, I even know who timtim is! ;-)  Looking up and being awed and 
wondering was where it all began Tim.  Never let the fact that 
others get into it more detract from any enjoyment you might get
from a simple look at the heavens.  They're free for everyone.

> tim

PeterT

>     Do you know what dates the Perseids are supposed to be visible?

The Persieds are actually a pretty big shower, and you can catch some 
a week or two before the peak (think of it as a bell shaped curve, though
sometimes the high point can be pretty well above the rest of the curve.)
The peak (hey those meteors are peaking right now!) for them is the
night of August 11 morning of the 12th.  I'm planning on taking the 
12th off if the weather is good ;-)  I could go into more detail about
how you tell if it's really a Persied, but only if you want to know ;-)

PeterT

re: satellite

was it moving east-west or north-south?

- jeff

re<<< Note 348.40 by QUARRY::petert "rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty" >>>
                    -< don't let me scare you off tim ;-) >-

>They're free for everyone.

Do the guys trying to fly the Space Billboard know this?  :^/

    re: .41
    
    this note and tim's comment about someone knowing about it all ...
    makes me think of Charlie Brownn looking at the clouds and calling
    them bunny rabbits and then his sister says something about stratus
    or cirrus or was that humus 
    
    carol

...this has been involuntary for me, really.  My new house has a 4' square
skylight in the master bedroom, directly above my bed.  It's in the woods
away from any major light source too.   I was staring up at it late one 
night a week or two ago, and decided to go downstairs and look at the whole 
picture.  Now I got out there every night.

I saw the meteor the other night just laying there, staring up at the 
'ceiling'...

tim

seeing satelites is pretty common, at least in my experiences.  i saw one 2
nights ago while mailing some letters (nightly walk).

I live near littleton common and the light situation sucks royally.  just too
many street lights, building lights, etc...  and, too much traffic too.  just
can't enjoy it like i used to in concord, or in harvard.  anywhere about
30 miles radius of littleton isn't that great for stargazing - you really need
to split waaaaaaaay up north to escape the light - what a difference compared
to even the darkest towns around here.  in harvard, during the winter, i'd
walk down to the lake and on to the ice.  since most of the houses on the lake
are zoned for zsummer use only, there was not much local light pollution.
spend many many nights munching on oats and gazing endlessly at the stars...
i love darkness; i love coldness; ....   august is always a great time to
view into the galaxies.  lots and lots of meteors to see.

    although I didn't see any (for some reason couldn't tilt my head back
    that far without falling over) many saw shootin stars at Tumbledown
    last weekend. Patty saw one that moved so slowly for a long time until
    it "burst" into flames, she thought it was a plane at first.
    The Milky way is VERY visable at 10,000 feet too. 
    
    rfb

re: shooting stars

I had one burn up about a few hundred feet over my head once... big, LOUD
fireball that looked like it was coming right at me ...it scared the $%&(*
outta me!

- jeff

Maybe it was an alien spaceship, burning up in the atmosphere.  Contact the
Weekly World News!

- DC

    Out west is the coolest....i remember backpacking in the Pecos last
    year....camping up at Pecos Baldy lake...it's above tree line and is
    wide open...there was a new moon and the sky looked like a 'billion 
    points of light'...never in my life have i seen a sky like that.  i've 
    been out on Cape Hatteras where the light pollution was minimal...you 
    can see the Milky Way.  But it just doesn't compare to checking out 
    the sky at 10,000' with a new moon.....
    
    Tooooooooo Coooooool
    
    				dugo_who_loves_the_southern_Rockies
    

    Seeing satellites is extremely common.  With good seeing conditions,
    50+/hour is easy.  The best time to see them is early night, when they
    still reflect the sun.
    
    The best time to see meteors is after midnight when North America is
    facing into the Earth's direction of travel.
    
    Jamie

    Yup, I really didn't think it was all too uncommon to see a satalite, 
    I'm sure there are piles buzzing around up there. Any way, this one 
    had a very northern trajectory maybe 000-005 degrees. 
    
    	As for needing to go north to view the stars I've had some great 
    viewings about 110 mi southeast from my house and a couple years ago 
    I found a great spot about 400 miles east-northeast, about 20-30 miles
    of the east coast of Nova Scotia. 
    
    Geoff

	We went up to everyone's favorite DEChead camping ground (Moose Brook
SP in Gorham NH) and did some stah gazing.  i saw 2 or 3 meteors, one that
really streaked across the sky.  milkly way is easy to see.  what a diff. 
between where i live in littleton vs. gorham NH.

    
        i heard there's supposed to be an awesome meteor storm (not shower,
     but storm!) tonite at nine....don't know about the cloud cover though,
     supposedly there will be partial clearing...hmmm...anyone have access
     to a hot air balloon? 8^)
                                                          ^dave
                                                           

Yea,  maybe the astronomers of the file could explain it all to me.  I heard
it will go from 9 to dawn.  Low cloud cover over NH though so who knows what
we'll be able to see.  

Also I heard conflicting reports of how many per hour (is it 100, 200, hundreds,
thousands?).  Also read a report in the sunday paper about some British team
saying that although this year will be good, next year will be better and they
went on to add that it's like "predicting the weather".

I'll be looking to see if I can see any stars through the clouds though!

bob

apparently, this comet is passing the closest to earth ever in 2000 years.
it'll be about 90000 miles away or so.   i guess these comets carry a lot
of junk behind them, some of which will fall into the earth's atmosphere
and burn up, causing the "shooting stars".

august traditionally has been the time to watch for shooting stars.  those
folks in the white mountains and other remote places will get a real show;
sure wish i was up there somewhere!

i'm going to see ronnie tonight, then, i may bag-out early and head for a
dark place to check out the shooting stars - perhaps our private beach on
bare hill pond...  if anyone wants to go, you're welcome;  of course, these
plans are subject to change!

    Predicting meteor showers is like predicting the weather.  That's why
    there's so much conflicting information out there.
    
    Meteors are the debris left behind by comets.  Meteor showers occur
    when the Earth passes through the path of a comet, in this case the
    comet Swift-Tuttle.  This year is expected to be spectacular because
    Swift-Tuttle picked up a bunch of new debris last year.
    
    This annual shower is called the Perseids because if you traced the
    meteor paths, they'd converge in the constellation Perseus.  To find
    Perseus, look slightly east of north at dark and find the big "W" shape
    lying on its side.  That's Cassiopea.  Perseus is slightly to the left
    and down (hope I'm not confusing anyone with these astronomical terms),
    below the horizon for east coast observers.  That's the radiant, but
    you can see meteors anywhere in the sky.
    
    The best time for viewing is after it gets dark. :-)  After midnight
    is the best time to observe meteors because that's when N. America is
    facing into the Earth's direction of travel.  But, since no one can
    predict when the shower will peak, the best time to observe could be
    anytime, perhaps even right now.
    
    I saw a few last night, one of which was pretty spectacular.  I also
    saw the brightest satellite I've ever seen, perhaps it was the Mir
    space station?
    
    A full blown meteor shower would be the event of a lifetime.  Even if
    it doesn't live up to its hype*, I always see something when I look up
    at the starry sky.
    
    *Hyping an event up virtually guarantees that it'll be disappointing. 
    remember comet Kahoutek?
    
    Jamie

    Hey, I even saw comet Kohutek (even if it did take a 12-14 inch scope
    and it didn't look like much more than a fuzzy blob ;-)
    
    Pretty good explanation Jamie.  About the only thing I'd change is that
    Swift-Tuttle ADDED a bunch of new debris, rather than picked up a
    bunch last year (probably just semantics).  
    
    Think of a meteor shower as a large orbit around the sun.  This orbit 
    is the path of the comet associated with the meteor shower.  As comets
    get closer to the sun, they heat up and (since the commonly accepted
    model of comet is a dirty snowball) start shedding water, ice and dirt.
    Over the millions or so years that a comet has been following its
    orbit, the whole orbit is fairly well strewn with comet bits as the 
    individual particles are pushed away from the parent body by the 
    solar wind.
    
    The preceding years of 1991 and 92 have shown an short-lived increase
    in the number of meteors associated with the Persieds.  This led
    to speculation that the parent comet, Swift-Tuttle was nearby (aside
    from predictions of it's orbit which had not been well calculated in
    previous swing-bys).  And in fact, the comet was finally seen in 
    September of last year, and swung closest to the sun in December.
    It's on its way back out to the colder reaches of the solar system
    now.  Since it just passed by (if it only comes one every 130 years,
    passing a 1/2 year ago is, just passed by) this year is predicted to 
    be "really good".  And since we are closer to the comets actual 
    orbit this year (90,000 miles, I think the moon is 240,000 miles away
    to give you an idea of distances) at 9:00 tonight, (EDT) that is 
    when the best guess for something spectacular to be seen.  Previous 
    passes (1862 for example) did show increased activity following the
    passing, though no "storms" were mentioned.  But we were not as
    close to the comet's orbit in that year (millions of miles I think).
    So there is a great deal of anticipation this year.
    
    Some British astronomers calculated that the stuff we are seeing this
    year is actually the dust cloud left by 1862 passing, having now
    orbited around close to the comet, and spread out more over the last
    130 years.  And that the main part of that might not be visible till
    next year.  Sounds plausible, but that won't keep me indoors tonight
    (though rain and clouds may).
    
    I've watched a little bit in the last 2 nights, 1/2 hour and 2 Persieds
    on Monday, and 1hr and 4 Persieds Tuesday. I'm hoping that tonight
    will up that rate a little bit.
    
    Actually, a more likely time for a meteor storm is still a few years
    off.  The Orionid shower (I think in Novemeber, but I'd have to 
    look it up) is associated with a comet that returns every 33 years.
    This has produced many meteor storms in the past, the last one
    in 1966.  So I've got a date in 1999 already planned!  ;-)
    
    PeterT
    

If pure ice were to impact the atmosphere, would it "flame"?

yep- as the pure ice fell at extremely rapid velocity into the atmosphere,
water molecules would first vaporize then ionize, giving a flaming stream
of ions in its wake.

You east coasters and the europeans are supposed to get good viewing
tonight; but I'll be out on the skyline, up above the Bay Area, as it
gets dark around 8:40 tonight, hoping...;-).

DougO

It seems unlikely that pure ice hitting the upper atmosphere would produce
any visible effects, but the other debris will. The presence of ice in the
particles may help them survive longer (ablative cooling) which ought to
make for a more spectacular show.

Moonrise is supposed to be around midnight (where's a pagan when you need one?),
so earlier in the evening is probably a better time.

gary

    
       moonrise is at 12:19am 8^)
    
                              ^dave_non_pagan

    I have to ask about "pure" ice. What consitutes pure? is this pure
    hydrogen? That might burn. Do we expect this ice to be a hydrogen/
    oxygen mixture? Would that be pure? Is it pure Neon, maybe it'll glow.
    Pure argon, argon burns very blue doesn't it? 
    	It would seem to me that all of the known elements can freeze and 
    therefore be an ice. But the chances that any are pure, having come
    from a comet tail seems unlikely. And to "burn" don't we need both
    oxygen and a fuel element. This would make the burning of a pure
    element unlikely. Could get damn hot an glow though. 
    
    	Now I'll turn back into a sailor
    	Geoff

    A meteor is the light
    Caused by a falling meteorite.

I think that was the answer to a test question that I read someplace.  Sticks 
in my mind though.

The light we see is caused by the friction of a high speed object (Persieds
are traveling somewhere around 40 miles a SECOND!)  impacting in the 
atmosphere.  "Burning" is not really an issue, though it may account for 
why some meteors leave glowing trails.  But I'm getting a feeling I'm
getting into areas I'm fuzzy on.  (BS meter alert!!)  So I'll just
leave it at that.  Well, almost.  Certainly the atmosphere is ionized along
the path of the meteor.  Radio signals can the be bounced off the ionized
trail.

PeterT

I took 'pure ice' to mean frozen water, a not unreasonable assumption if we are
not discussing drugs, diamonds or cyberpunk :-).

And it's only a meteorite if it survives to the ground. We must have taken the
same tests :-)

gary

    I believe it's:
    
    meteoroid	in space
    meteor	in our atmosphere
    meteorite	on the ground
    
    re .58
    
    >About the only thing I'd change is that Swift-Tuttle ADDED a bunch of
    >new debris, rather than picked up a bunch last year (probably just
    >semantics).  
    
    Do you mean that S-T actually gained debris in its wake or that the
    nucleus broke up and created new debris?  How big is a comet nucleus
    anyway?
    
    Pretty good show last night, though it failed to live up to its hype
    (no surprise).  I saw about 30 in 2.5 hours, before we got completely
    socked in at 11:15.
    
    We did have one major dilemma: it's hard to drink beer lying on your
    back.  I'll be investing in silly straws before the next shower.
    
    Jamie

I saw 2 excellent ones (larger than I'd ever seen) from by backyard
and then we took off for a dark spot (2 minutes away) and by the time 
we got out of the car there were clouds everywhere.

Oh well,  those 2 were certainly a teaser,
bob

ps. Next year maybe we'll have better luck.

pps.  thanks for all the explanations.

    Don't give up on the showers yet. The weatherpeople on a couple of
    channels this morning we saying that we'll still be able to see them
    for the next cople of days (weather permitting, of course).
    
    We saw several large ones with trails last Friday night between 9:30
    and 11ish on the Maine coast.
    

re Jamie ... try using a garden hose and a bucket.

    I looked for 'em here and there only until about 9:30.  There was a lot
    of cloud cover where I was, so Jeff Maggard and myself took off for Da'
    Bull...                            
    
    	Mike

slash and i went up to harvard on bare hill pond to check 'em out.
overcast weather, w/ some spots...  i saw a couple small ones,
certainly nothing _amazing_ ...

i couldn't really see much from out backyard (lots of trees in the way), so 
danielle and i headed to a nearby golf course (we were going to go to the state
park across the street until someone told us that a cop was in there kicking
people out)

watched from about 9:45 to 11:15, i think; saw a bunch of little ones, and
maybe 4 or 5 that were pretty spectacular and left large trails in the sky;
lots of clouds, but they were coming and going so we got a decent amount of
watching at some clear spots in the sky; none were as amazing as one that i
happened to see while sleeping under the stars somewhere in the southwest u.s.
during the summer of 1991

- rich

I was with jamie: I missed a least a couple big ones he saw cause I was
sitting up to sip homebrew, but all in all, it was great show: at least 4
significantly-sized meteors in 1.5 hours, i.e. they spanned like one
quarter of a horizon-to-horizon arc. These big pups leave trails of ionized
gas which last a couple of seconds: very hallucinogenic experience for some 
reason.

    Spotted 7 in about 20 minutes of cloud gap last night. One was big,
    leaving a trail of about 45 degrees field of view. Twice they came in 
    pairs.
    
    They were all just above the trees so I probably missed a lot. I'd
    walked around the trees earlier, but the one neighbour-who-is-a-jerk
    had to turn on his spotlights to see what was going on (mutter,
    grumble).
    
    Still, it brings my total meteor count, including last night, to 7.
    
    gary

The Persieds will certainly continue for a few more days, so if the 
weather is good this weekend, be sure to get out and take a look.

Personal experience from my backyard in MA, near the border of RI and
Connecticut.  No storm, but a real nice shower.  I caught one with my
daughter at 9:00pm, and she had said she saw another one right before that.
Her description sounded pretty good, but then she wanted to go to bed.
At 4 and 1/2 and having tramped around a zoo that day, I didn't blame her.

After getting her down I came back out.  And pretty soon had 6 more,
one a non-Persied.  Then went back in to calm down Hannah who had waken up
crying.  Then went back out with something to jot down the count, as I 
was losing it just trying to remember.  Wrapped up about 1:00 when the clouds
came in for good.  

With a large section of my horizon all ready covered with trees, the clouds
were around, but left my main window (directly overhead) largely unobscured.
they did roll in completely about 11:00 or so, but after ten minutes 
receded again.  The final count was roughly about 35 or so, with
2 non-Persieds.  The majority of the Persieds were in negative magnitudes
and left trails.  One brilliant fireball that descended below the tree lines, 
and one burst of 3 in about 2 seconds.  Given my limited seeing, and the 
hovering, but not quite descending cloud cover, I had a pretty good 
night.  Last night, the 12th, everything was clouded over.  We'll see
if anything opens up tonight or over the weekend.

PeterT

Hey, I kinda like Xnotes.  I got to post the same meteor note here and in
the astro conference because Xnotes keeps the buffer around until you clear
it.

Gary,  is that total Persieds for the night, or total in meteors ever?
The way you wrote it sounded like the later, but I hope you've seen more
than that.

I'm beginning to re-think the explanation I wrote about meteors burning up
and what happens with pure H2O ones.  Meteors can definitely be of different
colors, and one assumes that it is the different compositions of elements
in the meteor that account for it.  Pure ice may well disappate before it
got too far, but I'm guessing that the chances of finding pure ice with
no contaminants in it is pretty low.  So part of it may burn anyway.

PeterT

7 total. None of the major meteor showers are visible from the southern
hemisphere so the odds of seeing one at any given point in time are pretty
slim. The SH has other benefits for stargazing, but not meteors.

Since the plasma around the object is the result of aerodynamic heating, anything
volatile in the meteroid will tend to get vapourised fast. So a meteroid (by
George, I think he's got it) that is mostly water would disintegrate rapidly.
Small amounts of ice may actually help the meteroid survive longer as water
rquires a fair amount of energy to change state. Anyway, its the ones with a
high nickel/iron content that tend to survive to become meteorites.

I'd guess that are right about the contents vapourising into the plasma giving
it colors. I have some pix of old 'heat sink' style warheads reentering. They
are basically solid copper (or high copper alloy) and they leave a brilliant
green trail (presumably followed by terminal sunburn).

Someone mentioned the misuse of "burn". Unfortunately it gets used to describe a
lot of processes that do not involve combustion. Warhead designers talk about
the thermonuclear reactions as a 'fusion burn' for example.

[Random aside: I worked as a clinical lab tech in a local hospital tp pay my 
way through university. In the event of a fire we were not allowed to use the
word 'fire' for fear of upsetting the patients. We were to call the emerg. number
and report 'combustion'...]

gary

    
        cool lunar show last night! 
    
                                 ^dave

Yeah ... cleared up just in time!  Quite a show ... it was nice the way all the
stars appeared brighter during the eclipse, too.

The way the moon starts to get shaded, before the disc of the earth's shadow
cuts into it, looks sort of spooky.  I can see why primitive folks thought it
was foretelling nasty events (besides the fact that it was an unexpected
event).

- dc

    I missed the whole show! fell "asleep at the couch" 'bout 9. But the full
    moon disapearing behind Pikes Peak this morning at 6:30am was way
    cool! 
    
    rfb
    

Caught only two glimpses of it, early on about 10, and a little more then
1/2 way into it about 12:30.  Hmmm, maybe that earlier time was closer
to 11.  Couldn't stay awake for it since it wasn't total until
about 1AM here, and not over till 4AM.  But the sky was nice if
there were a few light scudding clouds, obscuring, but not blocking things
after a full day of monsoon.  What I'm looking forward to, and hoping
the weather is clear for, is the Geminids.  Great meteor shower with 
a pre-midnight view (or radiant, for those astro-minded) on/around 
Dec 12.  Have to get the warm coats out usually though.  The moon
will not be a factor, as it will be new.

PeterT

I had a good cloudless view from Lowell.  Watched it till about 1:15 AM with
my 8x36 binocs (while watching the STTNG replay).

It didn't seem like a total eclipse to me, even thought the paper said it
would be.  Totality was to begin at 12:40 AM so I think I saw it long enough
into the totality period.   The lower left part of the moon was dimly
light up white, the upper right part was clearly reddish colored from 
"all the worlds's sunsets" :-)

I sat a meteor through the binocs!  Way cool!  I was looking at the moon,
and in the same view saw it flash by.

Josh

>I sat a meteor through the binocs!  Way cool!  I was looking at the moon,
>and in the same view saw it flash by.

That happened to me when I was looking at the Andromeda galaxy (for the first
time!) a couple of weeks ago.  Definitely way cool

- dc

In case someone didn't know .. solar eclipse today!  In MA/NH, begins at
11:57 am, peaks at 1:42 pm, ends at 3:23 pm.

Yeah, it's about time to head a bit north to see what I can see (or 
project, really ;-)  There is supposed to be a server on the net with 
updated images but I haven't been able to get mosaic to cruise over
to that site today.  Probably too much traffic....


PeterT

    
    the eclipse looks pretty wild from here (northboro) - got some exposed
    film from the microfiche people.  looks like about 50% now.
    
    	pete

	http://astrowww.astro.indiana.edu/solar/

	Waaay too much traffic today.
	They will be making an MPEG out of the .GIFs for later viewing.

    our "peak" has come and gone...total was about 75% here in Colo Spgs. 
    neat shadows and effects in general. I had to meet a plumber at home so
    I made a little peep hole viewer during the peak, then checked whatthe
    weather channel video looked like...mine was just as good..;^)
    I don't think MAss is supposed to see more than 60%, according to the
    weather channel that is..
    
    rfb

    
    
    I just viewed the eclipse through a pinhole....  pretty neat
    stuff!  :-)
    
    MJ

    
    Saw the eclipse thru a viewer. Definitely cool. I'd say we had 80-85%
    coverage during peak. At least it looked that way to me.

 Someone here at TWO had a solar filter. pretty cool. 

 I'd like to get some large .gif's of it.


 Shawn

    
    	Socially, LJO is a crappy place to work at, but I must admit,
    	when there's an eclipse, we got it made....
    
    	Between the exposed film, the welding masks, and the Printed 
    	Circuit board hole viewers....we had about 20 various forms 
    	of viewage all going at once.

    I made a few tube viewers, and someone around me had #16 welding glass
    so I got to take a peak at its peak (somewhere abouts 85-90%) looked
    neat through the glass !
    
    last time we had one like this was in 1970 (in the New England area) 
    I was in Lincoin Sq Worcester with my Grandmother....next one is
    in 2012 and the next full one is in 2024 (in this area)
    
    
    Chris

Ran up to Manchester, and caught an all too brief ring around the sun, hmm,
no that should actually be a ring around the moon.  I was kind of racing it
and got briefly stuck in a toll booth when it wouldn't take one of
my quarters!  Maybe it was a Canadian coin....  Then pulled off into 
a parking lot and drove over to where I could see other people looking up
with welders glass and such.  Loaded some film in my camera, stopped it all
the way down and set for the highest shutter speed.  And after a few shots
I remembered to focus to infinity too!  Sigh....   It was kind of neat, 
but I really want to see a full one, one of these days.  I should get 
a solar filter for my scope too.  The sun can actually be kind of interesting
when there are sunspots on it.


PeterT

Wow, the difference in location from Nashua to Manchester made the
difference in terms of seeing a ring, huh?  Didn't see that here.  Almost,
but not quite!

Yeah, well, having a Sky and Telescope subscription and working in Nashua,
I didn't miss that bit of info.  I figured I can put this working so 
far from home to a little bit of good use ;-)  I was almost thinking of
taking my daughter in for the day, but my wife wasn't that keen on
the idea when I suggested it a few weeks ago.  I showed her how to make a 
pinhole projector this morning, and told her she could use the idea for
show and tell in her pre-school today.  She scoffed and said she'd bring
her dolls in instead.  Where's that Hacker Barbie when you need it!


PeterT

Yup Peter, Heidi has some big plans for the impact of 
comet shoemaker-levy 9 into jupiter (impact begins
july 16 and ends july 22 or so).  she's the head of the
hubble space telescope team that will be imaging jupiter
during the collisions.  She'll have the best pictures 
anywhere on the planet of the crash.

	Tim

Cool!!  After I posted that note Friday, I finally got around to reading
Monday's Boston Globe article on sl9 and jupiter and found towards the
end, something along the lines of "Heidi Hammel, astronomer from MIT
says 'This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to study this'",
to which I thought, "well gee, that kind of answers my question to Tim"
but they didn't really go into much detail at that point, so I was
left to guess that her involvement would have something to do with
studying the acoustic reverberations produced by the crashes.  To which 
my next thought was, "but how the hell do they do that??" ;-)
Your answer gives me a better idea.

Later,
PeterT

    I thought maybe Timtim and Heidi would tape the crash.....%^)
    rfb

    so, Tim ... Jupiter viewing at your place?   Just say the word and
    we'll all be there!  :-) 
    
    C

>    so, Tim ... Jupiter viewing at your place?   Just say the word and
>    we'll all be there!  :-) 

At least scan in some pix and post pointers to the .GIFs :-)

adam

Sorry Tim.  Maybe I shouldn't have brought this up... ;-)

PeterT

Some of the images will be released publicly.  There
will be a press conference on the 16th or 17th to
release what ever they see of the early impacts.

However, all of the data is sequestered for about
3 months to give the project scientists a chance to
analyze it before everyone tries to put in their
3 cents on the images.

So I guess there won't be a jupiter showing at our
place ;-)

As for taping it, I'd need a real shotgun mic for
that one!

	Tim

    Following is the schedule for NASA TV coverage of SL9. There is a good
    chance that some PBS stations will carry the live feed in the evenings.
    Some cable co's will carry NASA Select on an unused channel (its free,
    so bug your caco if they don't carry this).
    
    It sounds like it will be similar to the coverage for the Voyager
    Neptune encounter. Live, raw images most of the time with first pass
    processed data at the briefings. The briefings were the first time the
    various teams saw each other's data. There was a lot of excitement in
    the room.
    
    gary
    
NEWSROOM HOURS AND TV COVERAGE FOR COMET SHOEMAKER-LEVY 9
 
        NASA's coverage of the impact of Comet P/Shoemaker-Levy 
9 during the week of July 16-22 includes a series of live, 
televised press briefings and a 24-hour newsroom operation at 
the Goddard Space Flight Center (GSFC), Greenbelt, Md.
 
        The Goddard Comet Impact newsroom will be the central 
location providing coverage of observations and images from 
the worldwide network of ground-based observatories and 
spacecraft taking part in the NASA/National Science Foundation 
observing project.  Scientists will be on hand at the newsroom 
to answer questions, or interviews can be arranged as needed.  
Press materials, artwork and video relating to the event will 
be available to media.  
 
        The first fragment of the comet will impact Jupiter just 
before 4 p.m. EDT on the side of Jupiter facing away from 
Earth.  Shortly afterwards, the point of impact will rotate 
into view as seen from Earth.  The first image of the impact 
area is expected to be available (following minimal 
processing) at about 10 p.m. EDT.
 
        NASA will release the image in a live program broadcast 
from the Space Telescope Science Institute, Baltimore, Md., 
starting at 10 p.m. EDT.  There will be no press briefing on 
NASA TV at that time, however, a briefing will be held Sunday 
morning at the Goddard Comet Impact Newsroom.
 
Press Briefing Schedule
 
        At 8:00 a.m. EDT, Sunday, July 17, a press briefing will 
be broadcast live on NASA TV with Q & A from other NASA 
Centers, and will include updated information about the first 
impact and the image.  During the following week, NASA will 
hold a live press briefing each day at the GSFC Comet Impact 
Newsroom (see schedule below).
 
        The briefing panels will include Comet co-discoverers 
Drs. Eugene and Carolyn Shoemaker and David Levy on most days 
as well as scientists presenting images and information from 
the Hubble Space Telescope and other spacecraft.  Dr. Lucy 
McFadden will have a round-up of observations from ground-
based observatories around the world.  The program and 
briefing schedule follows:
 
JULY DATE       TIME (EDT)      EVENT
Sat.    16      10:00 p.m.      Live from HST: First  Impact Image Release
                                (no Q & A from NASA Centers)
Sun.    17      8:00 a.m.       Press Briefing at GSFC
Mon.    18      8:00 a.m.       Press Briefing at GSFC
Tue.    19      8:00 a.m.       Press Briefing at GSFC
Wed.    20      12:00 noon      Press Briefing at GSFC
Th.     21      8:00 a.m.       Press Briefing at GSFC
Fri.    22      9:30 a.m.       Press Briefing at GSFC
Sat.    23      8:00 a.m.       Press Briefing at GSFC
 
Note:  The above times are dependent on the STS-65 mission 
schedule.  If there is a change in the launch or landing time 
of the Shuttle, the program times will change.  
             
Comet Impact Newsroom Operations
 
        The newsroom will operate on a 24-hour basis beginning 
at 6 a.m., Sun., July 17 until noon EDT, July 23.  The 
newsroom will be located at the Goddard Visitor's Center on 
Soil Conservation Road in Greenbelt.  The phone number for the 
newsroom will be 301/286-2300, but will not be active until 6 
a.m., July 17.  
 
        Media wishing to use the newsroom must register at the 
Visitor Center and obtain a media badge, starting at 6 a.m. 
EDT July 17.  Valid press credentials and a photo ID must be 
presented.  Media representatives who are not U.S. citizens 
must contact the Goddard Office of Public Affairs at 301/286-
8955 before registering.
 
Video Uplink Schedule
 
        NASA will provide feeds of b-roll and animation of the 
comet impacts with Jupiter on the following schedule:  
 
June 29:        10:00 a.m. and 1:30 p.m. EDT
June 30:        10:30 a.m. and 1:30 p.m. EDT
July 5:         10:30 a.m. and 1:30 p.m. EDT
July 15:        1:00 p.m. EDT
 
        Also on July 5, NASA Television will replay the May 18 
press briefing with panelists Dr. Eugene Shoemaker, Dr. Heidi 
Hammell, Dr. Hal Weaver, Dr. Lucy McFadden, and Dr. Melissa McGrath.
 
        NASA TV is carried on Spacenet 2, transponder 5, channel 9, 69
degrees West, transponder frequency is 3880 MHz, audio subcarrier is
6.8 MHz, polarization is horizontal. 
    

Yo mods!  How's about moving these last several over to 
"Counting Stars by Candlelight" ?

I'd do it myself, but I's not a mod!

PeterT

>Yo mods!  How's about moving these last several over to 
>"Counting Stars by Candlelight" ?
>
>I'd do it myself, but I's not a mod!

Go right ahead.  You now are a moderator. :-)

	dave

Cool, Now let's see how well I can screw this up!!!

PeterT

    Wow!
    
    Some truly amazing images from space over the weekend. And the most
    unusual NASA press briefing I've ever seen :-) I swung the dish over to
    the NASA channel at about 8pm Saturday to find some very elated
    astronomers taking belts from a champagne bottle as they answered
    questions from the press. They weren't scheduled to be on until 10, but
    they'd just gotten the first image back from Hubble, with the impact
    site very clearly visible.
    
    Later, they images of the fireball as segment A entered Jupiter's upper
    atmosphere. It was just above the limb of the planet. Plumes of very
    hot particulates being thrown up from the impact sites, leaving clouds
    the diamter of Earth. Possible seismic waves in the atmosphere. Segment
    G hit this morning, the brightest yet (UV detectors on a 'scope at
    Mauna Kea (sp?) overloaded).
    
    I didn't get this on tape, so I hope they replay the best of the image
    sequences. SL9's greatest hits (sound of a rimshot in the distance).
    
    gary
    
    p.s. some amateur astronomers reported seeing a momentary flash as
    segment A hit. I haven't heard if any of these have been confirmed.

Lotsa Heidi shots! Film of her sucking on a Champagne bottle was the 
lead-in story on all three networks' 11:00 news last night. :-)

This morning too. After film of Heidi explaining the technical details of 
the latest wide field shots, Bryant Gumbal's DBL was: "Gee, should we replay
that over one more time, I'm not sure I got all that, hyuck?"

Nice pic's of jupiter and SL-9 can be found on the WWW at:
	http://newproducts.jpl.nasa.gov/sl9/sl9.html

Geoff

>	http://newproducts.jpl.nasa.gov/sl9/sl9.html

The information server either is not accessible or is refusing to serve the 
document to you.

>>	http://newproducts.jpl.nasa.gov/sl9/sl9.html

>The information server either is not accessible or is refusing to serve the 
>document to you.

i'm in there now.  although i'm a little reluctant to pull in the 1220K
animation sequence over the network...

- rich

Well, if your still in, do a save on the gifs and post a pointer please...

>Well, if your still in, do a save on the gifs and post a pointer please...

ok, so i'm at the Comet Shoemaker-Levy home Page, and there's this really
cool picture of the impact of fragment G right on the page (i didn't have
to click on a reference to bring up xv).  how do i save that to a gif?

- rich

Click on "save as..." on the bottom, select a format {gif}, then enter a 
file name in the box and click on o.k....

>Click on "save as..." on the bottom, select a format {gif}, then enter a 
>file name in the box and click on o.k....

but will that save the whole page, and not just the picture i want?  (although
i guess that's not that big of a deal, since the page does contain the picture)

fwiw, the fact that i happen to be at the home page right now seems mildly
irrelevant, since i'm having difficulty connected to anything else

- ricH

>Click on "save as..." on the bottom, select a format {gif}, then enter a 
>file name in the box and click on o.k....

the only formats available are:

Plain Text
Formatted Text
PostScript
HTML

maybe that's because i'm looking at a whole page, and not just a picture?

- ricH

>   <<< Note 348.118 by ROCK::FROMM "This space intentionally left blank." >>>
>
>>Click on "save as..." on the bottom, select a format {gif}, then enter a 
>>file name in the box and click on o.k....
>
>the only formats available are:
>
>Plain Text
>Formatted Text
>PostScript
>HTML
>
>maybe that's because i'm looking at a whole page, and not just a picture?
>
>- ricH


I think (am not sure cause I can't connect right now) that you can click on 
"Load to local disk" and then click on the image and it will load the 
picture to your disk, then you can save it as you would like...

or...

...click on the picture to have it spawned to your external viewer and then 
modify it and save to a .GIF file from there.

Geoff_who_is_still_learning_the_WWW_in_a_major_way

	i use the two options geoff mentions:
	load to local disk,
	or after the extenrnal viewer is spawned, using another window or
	terminal copy the ZA19021803.GIF (or whatever the temp file is
	called) to FILENAME.GIF

Nevermind, I finally got in...

	pointer, please?  ;-)

along these same lines...

Does anyone have an idea why my external viewer would suddenly stop working
?  It was working but now it's not.  When I click on an image the machine 
sais "spawning external viewer" and then it just disappears.

Geoff

Here's the fragment G impact gif...

SUBPAC::DISK$SUB_USER2:[MAGGARD.PUBLIC]

SL9_G.GIF;1             143/144      20-JUL-1994 10:50:54.65 (RWED,RWED,RE,RE)

If you're using Mosaic, and you have it display an image, it will spawn the XV
viewer (if you have it locally) and display only the image (not the control
panel).  Once the image is the active window, hit <Ctrl>-</> (or 'ctrl-?') to
get the XV control panel.  Once there, you can save the gif to a file, make
the gif your screen background, and lots of other nifty stuff...

- jeff

Took the C8 out last night and took a look at Jupiter.  Pretty sure I saw the
G impact site (as it is the largest one and most noticible so far.)  
It was basically in the right position, but it kept fading in and out on 
me.  Not too unusual though, given the seeing conditions that I'm dealing
with.  PBS has a special on tonight at 10:30PM, "The Great Comet Crash".
I'll be watching and taping and might have the scope out again tonight.
Have to keep moving it around though.  The damn trees get in the way ;-)

PeterT

ps:  Kind of interesting, other viewpoint type of thing going on in the
SPACE notes file about the comet crash.  One dweeb is going on about the
astronmers are a bunch of drunken prima donnas who won't share their 
data with the rest of us.  He has a serious attitude problem and I've
seen him get into this arguments on similar topics.  I'm not sure if I should
flame him or ignore him, though I'm leaning towards the latter.  Sigh....

    Ignore him. I usually do, but for some reason it got to me yesterday. I
    was probably grumpy from reading too many "where did it all go wrong.."
    retrospectives on Apollo.
    
    gary

Yeah, I think I should ignore him.  No matter what reasoned response
one gives him, he blows it off and builds his own ridiculous theories.
It can be kind of fun though to watch him twist and squirm when even
he realizes he's wrong, but doesn't yet want to let go of his own particular
hobbyhorse.

PeterT

Hey TimTim, if you're catching this, send our kudos to Heidi, and tell
her she looks like shes having way too much fun ;-)

     
    KKFM here in Colorado was just talking about the live coverage of the
    comet.  They were talking about how nerdy one of the guys is.  They
    started talking about Heidi and how her students say she isn't a nerd,
    but a deadhead.  
    
    We are everywhere
    
    	Mark

I was watching the PBS coverage last night and there was an hour long show
followed by a general discussion by some of the astronomers in a 
panel setting.  Heidi was one of these and I recognized one guy but couldn't
remember from where until they captioned him as Cliff Stoll, which my
brain took another few seconds to realize was the guy who wrote Cuckoo's Egg
and had a show on Nova last year about how they tracked down this hacker from
Germany.  Cliff is also a deadhead and I've seen him pop up on rec.music.gdead
every once in a while.  He's definitely a bit spacey ;-)  But, on to my point.
At one point they were showing an image of Jupe with 3 impact sites visible
and the moderator was asking, can you identify which site corresponds to 
which fragment.  Heidi pops in, well, it took me a while but I think this
last one is E, and the first one is A and the middle one is C, (writing this
down on a monitor so it shows up for us).  I just think of it as ACE to 
help me remember.  (paraphrased here, not exact quotes)
So, Weir is represented up on Jupiter now ;-)

PeterT  

More Jupiter viewing last night.  Talk about hectic timing!  Finished dinner,
kids had finished their baths and I was supposed to help put them down,
but I stepped outside and saw the clearest sky I'd seen this week.  Set up
the scope, took a quick look, walked into our bedroom (the only AC in the
house) and asked "Who wants to see Jupiter?"  Everybody came outside ;-)
Hannah was able to see Jupiter, and made out some of the bands, but
didn't quite make out the comet spots.  What with her being only 5, and
the rest of us out on the porch (any movement shakes the scope) I thought
that was actually pretty good.  Danny wanted to try too, but it's hard to 
say if he actually saw anything.  At 2, his communication skills are still
being worked on, so who knows if he saw anything at all, maybe he had the
best view! ;-)  Amy did see the splotches of the crash sites, so that was
neat.  Then we all went inside, and I tried to put Dan to sleep while 
Hannah and mom watched the end of NeverEnding Story inside the air conditioning.
Read the Cat in the Hat Comes Back and The Cat in the Hat and then put him
in bed. "Night, night.  Sleep good.  Stay in bed!"  Then I snuck outside
for a few more glimpses before getting Hannah.  Thought I heard some furtive
movements, came back inside and sure enough, Dan had climbed out and was
watching the NeverEnding Story (which of course, wasn't over yet ;-) with
the others.  Took Hannah and Dan back to H.'s room and read the nightly
allotment of 3 books for Hannah, and put her down and then marched Dan 
back into bed.  Finally, with everyone asleep, or at least in bed, I went 
back outside, and saw that Jupiter was now behind the trees, sigh...
OK, move the scope to the site on the lawn where I can just see Jupiter 
through the trees.  And do that again every few minutes because I have 
a small window of visibility that shifts with the earths rotation.

But anyway, two nice easily visible dark splotches that showed up
on the lower half of Jupiter.  Even Amy was impressed, which is pretty
unusual, since she's not that interested in it, and naked eye through
a scope is always much less impressive than the nice photos you see in
the paper or magazines.  It's unclear how long these things will persist
but I suspect it will be for a few weeks at least.  If anyones interested
we could set up a star party.  My house is (I think ;-) available, but
it's not really convienently located for most, I would think, and as related
above, my view of the southern sky where Juptier is located is somewhat
restricted.  Anybody have a site with reasonably dark skies (not that 
essential with Jupiter viewing) and a good view to the south (and maybe
a bit more centrally located)??  DC and I have talked about this in the past,
but never got far with it.  Now seems like a good opportunity to try again.

PeterT

Nice review, peterT!

    did some gazing meself last eve....I only have a 60 power scope, so I
    wouldn't make out any comet spots, but 4 moons can be seen...my place
    is also subject to too much light pollution...Carmi would have been a
    grate place for the 'scopes...
    
    and it was cool checking out a full moon the day after the 25th
    anniversary gig...
    
    peterT, you live in Douglas, right ??  I'll check out Jupiter witcha...
    hmm, my buddies place on Whitins could have a decent view of Jupiter,
    although it was sinking to the horizon quick last night, but again that
    is in the city, not the best place to be gazing

> .Carmi would have been a grate place for the 'scopes...

I seriously debated (with myself ;-) whether or not to bring the scope up
with me to Carmi, and in the end decided against it, as I figured there'd
be enough to do anyway, and after the show I'd be to wiped to do much.
As it turned out, it was a good decision, since I got caught in traffic 
and never got out to Carmi.  But another time, I wouldn't mind at all.

>    peterT, you live in Douglas, right ??  I'll check out Jupiter witcha...
>    hmm, my buddies place on Whitins could have a decent view of Jupiter,
>    although it was sinking to the horizon quick last night, but again that
>    is in the city, not the best place to be gazing


Yep.  Actually, the trees are just a problem if we stick to my yard,
which is not required.  There is a cornfield down the road from me
that has one area that I've been to a few times where the trees are not a 
real problem.  One of these days I should find out who owns that field
and see if they mind if I occassionaly bring the scope down there.
So far I've only surprised a few locals who were looking to drink
beers ;-)  
The other possiblity is to build a real observatory (the backwoods kind ;-)
I've seen plans for one in Sky and Telescope that is about 16-20 ft high, 
putting you and the scope in the treetops.  But, with just an 8", it 
doesn't seem worth it at the moment.  Maybe the next house ;-)

Wes, if you're in Douglas, and you want to check it out, drop me a line
at 476-3930.  As far as I know, the only plans we have are next weekend,
and the weekend of Aug 13th.  Otherwise, we don't get out much ;-)

PeterT

When are the annual summer meteor showers due to start? 

(The Pleides?  Is that the right name?)

Just wonderin'....and thinking about a camping trip...;-)

tim

    remember that big meteor shower last August?  Is that the
    annual summer meteor shower or was it something special?
    I was in Luxumborg last Aug. and spent an evening drinking
    beer, watching the stars and getting a pain in my neck.

You knew I had to answer this one, dint'ja? ;-)

The Persieds 'peak' on the night of Aug. 11th which is a Thursday.
For some reason, I'm taking Aug 12th off.  Hmmmmm, wonder if there's
any connection? ;-)  (and no, I'm not planning on going to Woodstock!)
Meteor showers are annual events and have been tied to the orbits of
comets.  In the Persied's case, the comet Swift-Tuttle was rediscovered 
in the fall/winter of '92, causing speculation to rise that the shower
of '93 was going to be a 'meteor storm'.  While this did not live up
to the media hype, I, and numerous others who follow these things, 
thought it was a real good shower.  Last year, some astronomers in 
England, I believe, had calculated that the orbit and timing of the 
comet was such that the real storm would be this year.  Don't know
which one is true, but I'll be out again this year and hoping that
the weather is relatively clear.  And for those of you that followed
this far, meteor showers are rated or measured by rates per hour, and
the Persieds is usually one of the higher rates.  Showers also follow
a bell shaped curve, with rates increasing up to the peak and then 
falling a bit more sharply afterward, so a week or so on either side 
should still allow you to see something.  In fact, they've probably 
already started, though at fairly low rates at the moment.

>    remember that big meteor shower last August?  Is that the
>    annual summer meteor shower or was it something special?
>    I was in Luxumborg last Aug. and spent an evening drinking
>    beer, watching the stars and getting a pain in my neck.

It was the annual shower, and it was also supposed to be something special.
But the media hyped it a bit too much (surprise!).  To really do it 
effectively, you should be lying on the ground or some other such surface.
This avoids the neck pains.  Last year I was lying on my picnic table
and I might have even brought the pillow out.  

I just checked the older notes here and found my account of the shower in
.75 with my first note about the upcoming shower in .41.  Most of those
in between also relate. The last related note is .77 then we skip to
November.

PeterT

    wow!, thanks PeterT.  As for lying on the back with a pillow,
    what about my beer?  I guess I'll bring a straw this year.;^)
    
    Steve

    re: last year's shower...August 11 was the "show", and we were in a
    Grate place to see it...Carson City, Nevada...elevation approx 4,200 ft.
    above sea level, DARK at night...unfortunately I was driving to Reno
    airport to pick up my bro-in-law et al coming in for our wedding, but
    Karen and her mom got to watch, and they said it was an amazing show
    out there....several "streaks" every 20-30 seconds
    
    no light pollution there, except "downtown" (which isn't big) from the
    casinos

Well, I'll be taking Friday off, as I plan another annual Persied watch to
all hours of the morning.  With the weather having finally broken, I've 
been out a wee bit to try and check out how the early part of the
shower is going.  General impression... not bad at all.  I think the most
I've been out has been 1/2 hour at a time, and so far I've caught (shit, that's
hot! ;-) about 8 Persieds, 2 Sat, 3 each or so on Sunday and Monday.
And caught about 5 or 6 strays.  How do you tell the difference?  Well,
meteor showers have a radiant point, meaning that they all appear to come
from one point in the sky.  If you extend the meteor trail backwards, they
should intersect in roughly the same area if they belong to the shower.
And, they tend to have similar velocities, in that they streak across the
sky at roughly the same rate.  Persieds are pretty zippy ones.  The 'strays'
were obviously moving in the wrong direction (perpendicular to Persied
tracks, or in somewhat opposite directions to the Persieds.)  The strays
may well belong to another shower, as I think there are more than one shower
active at the time.  One stray I saw was pretty neat.  VERY bright and very
slow moving. It had a short tail, but it was moving so slow, the end of the 
tail was disappearing as this thing slowly tracked across the break in the
trees behind my house.  Most meteors disappear in less than a second.  This one
I watched for a good 3 to 5 seconds before I lost sight of it in the trees.
The weather is looking good for Thursday, so I'm psyched.  Then Friday, I get
to sleep late and then travel down to New York for relative visiting.
My brother is throwing a cousins party on Sunday, and wants me and 2 other 
brothers (only one missing is down in Florida.  Don't think he's planning on
making it) to bring a case of beer, 2 gallons of white wine, and a case of 
soda.  Beers are supposed to be in cans, as he's afraid of glass around lots
of kids.  Bob's throwing the party, but John mentioned the glass part.
I told John that I never heard anything of the sort from him, and not to 
mention to Bob that I did!  Have to bring some Sam Adams down.  If they force
me to bring cans, well, I'll just have to go with Guiness draught!
My bros are for the most part, very un-adventuress in the beer category.
Oh, maybe I'll finally bring down the two Budweisers that have been sitting
in the back of the fridge since Bob and family last visited (about 4-5 years 
ago! ;-)

Happy hunting....

PeterT

PeterT, don't forget the option of the mini-keg cans if it comes to that.
Warsteiner or Reichelbrau are pretty good stuff!

And thanks for the reminder on the meteor showers...

/Ken

I think the weather gods are conspiring against me.  We've had a number of weeks
of cloudy muggy hot sticky weather, where you couldn't see much in the sky 
at night at all, let alone meteors.  Last Saturday the weather changed,
it was dry, cooler, and the nights were beautiful.  Today, the clouds are
back and are supposedly 'variable tonight with a chance of showers' and
are supposed to clear up again tomorrow morning.  Arggghhgghhhh!!!
Yeah, cloud up for the peak night of the Persieds only, and then clear
out again!!  Well, I'll keep checking.  Was out again last night (after
having my mind reamed by the latest episode of Babylon 5!) but only caught
a few meteors before it clouded up again.  Sigh.  Maybe I'll get lucky.
Last year was pretty fortunate in that the cloud cover failed to totally
engulf my house until about 2AM.  
Hey rfb, hows the weather out in Colorado??  Is the sky dark up at
Tumbledown?  Could I come out for the night?  ;-)

Seriously, if you western heads have clear skies, you should definitely 
check out tonight.  It's supposed to be better in the Western US,
though all, ahem, clear spots in the US should be pretty good.

Frustratedly,
PeterT

    Yeah, it had gotten hazy around our place early last night and that
    really increases the sky glow from 495. I didn't bother going out
    later.
    
    re B5... Wham!
    
    gary

    is the peek time to view rilly from 3AM to dawn ? hope a few pass by
    before 11PM tonite

    weather in Colo is supposed to be cloudy and rainy from now until
    Sunday. HOWEVER! the evening skys at Tumbledown are usually clear as
    that's where the storms start and by the time they've built to large
    thunderboomers, they've moved off towards South Park and the cities. 
    
    two weekends ago, I believe it was, there was no moon and no stars
    (slight cloud cover) at around 11pm when I went outside to relieve
    myself for the last time before passing out. as is the norm, I walked
    into the middle of Skeeter Gulch Rd, looking both ways to ensure no
    cars were comin from afar, (indications would be headlites visible from
    along ways-a-way) and proceded to umm, err, well..  pee. as soon as I
    started, I heard some large critter on the other side of the road. I
    cleared my throat to let said critter know I was there while saying to
    myself and lil buddy "hurry up, hurry up!" Said critter starts to
    approach! "HURRY UP!, HURRY UP!" the critter is now 10 feet away,
    still not visable due to pupils not focusing properly and darkness. 
    "Hope it's not a bear!" Critter walks within  4-5 feet before it turns
    and *runs* up the road in front of me, visible only as a large, dark
    shape. It took awhile for my heart to come back outa my throat and into
    my chest, but as the critter ran away, I noticed the sound he made was
    like a horse galloping...not a bear, whew! next day i found cow elk
    tracks in the road, and later in the day saw a small herd crossing thhe
    paved road bout 1/2 mile from Tumbledown heading towards Tumbledown.
    Guess she thought I was another elk when I cleared my throat. 
    
    Last nite on the news the Div of Wildlife finally came out and said the
    bear problem we are having now is due to the stupidity of the voters.
    (well, didn't exactly put it that way, but...) without baiting and
    using dogs to hunt them, bears are losing all fear of man and finding
    their "bait" in garbage cans...10 bears were sighted outside of Boulder
    last Sunday alone. Warning people not to hike thru underbrush.
    
    
    Moral of story...look out for bears whilst star gazin!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    rfb

In our area, we don't have to worry about bears.  Rabid racoons are the current
main concern, though by now, they might have been mostly wiped out in our
area.  I don't think I have anything to worry about them, but a few weeks
ago my wife and I heard an unusual howling noise.  Realizing I was awake,
she asked, "Is that an owl?"  "That's no damned owl!, and I don't think
it's a dog either.  I think it may be a coyote!"  A little latter, we heard
another, more familiar hooting sound and I said, "Now THAT'S an owl!  But 
that other one, no, I don't think I've heard that one before."  Coyotes have
made it into the area, though I don't know how close, or what they sound like
really, but that was one wierd howl, and it was my best guess at the
time.

PeterT

    you were most likely righ petert....read a nice artical in the sunday
    paper about them in central Mass area....I hope I see a few shooters
    tonite :') its very cool ain't it

  Speaking of bats mosquitos, and owls...

  a few weeks ago while on vaction in the whites, my wife asked what purpose
 mosquitos serve, are they really necessary, are they in the food chain etc...
 
  I said bats eat them, she said what eats bats. I said i'm not sure
 maybe owls, then she said what else do owls eat. My four year old
 says in a matter of fact way as if he could careless about the conversation.

 "rabbits".  He amazes me everyday with all the things he learns. I guess i'm
 glad he enjoys watching educational show on the tube instead of all the
  crap.


 Shawn 

fish eat mosquito larvae, birds eat fish, birds spread seeds, 
seeds plant grasses, cows eat grass, I eat cows

birds eat mosquitos, birds eat seeds, birds spread seeds,
seeds plant trees, trees produce oxygen, I breath oxygen.

;^)

I saw a coyote in downtown Fitchburg earlier this summer.  i was coming 
back from a show and there he was just trotting accross the road.

Geoff

I've seen some sunlight!!!  Maybe not all hope is lost!

I'll be out tomorrow.  Maybe I'll login from home and give
a late night review.  Otherwise, monday!

Happy hunting.

PeterT

    Space shuttle Discovery is scheduled to liftoff 12:49am EST this
    evening. It is being launched into a 51.6 degree inclination and based
    on an approximate orbit plot I ran last night, it might be visible from
    Boston during ascent.
    
    The launch window is only 5 minutes, so there won't be the usual
    waiting around for perfect weather. If it doesn't go tonight, the
    launch window is approx 24 minutes earlier (same duration) for each day
    of delay.
    
    gary

    Any idea what its mission is?
    (That's pretty close to its maximum inclination I believe)
    
    ...M.T. DH (who worked his way thru college tracking polar-orbit
    satellites so sho knows all about this "inclination" stuff)

    It will rendezvous with the Russian Mir space station, fly around and
    manouver in to 10 meters. Practice for the Mir docking mission later
    this year, and a giant photo op (they just happen to have an IMAX
    camera in the payload bay). They will also deploy and retrive
    Spartan-204 and it will be the third SpaceHab flight.
    
    Eileen Collins will become the first woman to pilot the shuttle.
    
    Rendezvous is scheduled for Sunday, btw. Should make for interesting
    viewing.
    
    gary

      I saw the launch when I was just down in Florida...nice orange glow
    to the north and then it looked like a nice comet until the booster
    rocket jetisoned and the white pin-spec of the shuttle disappeared into
    space...the whole thing was over in a few minutes..pretty cool, tho...
    
    

> I saw the launch when I was just down in Florida...nice orange glow to the
> north and then it looked like a nice comet until the booster rocket
> jetisoned and the white pin-spec of the shuttle disappeared into space...the
> whole thing was over in a few minutes..pretty cool, tho...

I eyewitnessed two shuttle launches from Sarasota, FL (opposite coast!) back
in high school.  They usually shot 'em off in the morning so we could see them
when driving to school or shortly after getting there.  We'd listen on the
radio for the launch and then stand on top of our cars to see over the trees.
On a clear day, one could easily see the contrail from the booster rockets up
until separation.

The first one was neat, with the bright glow of the engines but it
dissappeared into the clouds pretty quickly.  The second was more visible --
better day, no clouds at all.  I was outside for that one and away from a
radio or TV.  I saw the contrail go up, split in half, and then draw a pretzel
in the sky.  I knew something was screwey right away but wasn't sure what the
hell had happened.  Then I walked into class where they had it on the TV and
my friends were crying. :-(

Freaked me out.

- jeff_Challenger_witness

    I also witnessed a launch from Bradenton, FLA where my folks live...
    which is right next to Sarasota...and we watched the launch on tv, then
    went outside, all we could see was the trial, couldn't really see the
    craft itself...
    
    Wes_who_wants_to_witness_one_from_onboard_the_shuttle :)))

                     
    I think NASA has some new tricks up it's sleeve....
              
    Some talk has been flurrying about a craft that will be able to 
    take off from landing strips using engines that require Oxygen,
    then quicking switch to a non-Oxygen fuel driven motor to blast 
    it out of orbit.  This will almost guarentee commercial outer-
    space travel within 100 years.  Space shuttle concept is get'n old. 
                                                            

Deano, 
   You may be thinking about the Delta Clipper, or then again you might be
thinking about the hypersonic intercontinental jet, which may use a 
mix of engines.  The Clipper, current version, DC-X, is a Single Stage To Orbit
(SSTO) vehicle which takes off vertically, zips up to orbit, and lands vertically
under full power.  The DC-X is the experimental version which has flown test
flights a few times, only to a thousand or so feet, scooted sideways a bit,
and then landed.  It depends on new materials (composite carbon fiber stuff)
to bring the weight down enough so it can take a respectable payload into 
orbit.  One test flight last year had an explosion rip off a section of
the skin on the vehicle, but the pilot (an ex-astronaut controlling it 
remotely) didn't realize anything was wrong until it either went into
auto-landing mode, or others told him to put it in auto-landing mode)
and it landed safely after that.  A non-powered (during landing) vehicle 
like the shuttle would have just slammed into the ground.  The great advantage
to the Clipper is the easy maintenance and turn-around time.  A handful of
guys and a few hours to days, compared with literally thousands of support
personal and a least a few weeks if not months for the shuttle.

The hypersonic plane sounds more like what you are thinking of.  Uses a relatively
normal jet to get up to cruising level (burning oxygen from the air) and 
then switches to a liquid (or ice slurry) mix of hydrogen and oxygen to 
boost it into a suborbital path which can take you from California to Japan
in a few hours.  Lots of planning on things like this, but no real hard
dates that I've heard of.

The Clipper sounds like the more likely choice, but a lot of funding has
been tied up and NASA was originally against the idea, though I think
they've warmed up to it somewhat.

Gary, any comments?  ;-)

PeterT

    
    The hypersonic would be what I was thinking of because the vehicle
    I heard about would not be able to land on a planet, whereas the 
    clipper probably could.  Hypersonic seems to be an excellent way for 
    NASA to get into the private sector with commercial flights to various
    space stations.  I would certainly be willing to pay 10K to spend a 
    couple days being weightless.

> I would certainly be willing to pay 10K to spend a couple days being
> weightless.

Well, if you need instant gratification, there are a couple services available
that you can spend $12k to go to Russia and fly a Mig-29 Fulcrum... ...and
when you do you can choose your gravity level between -3 to +9 G's ... or go
from 0 to 40,000 feet in two minutes!  :-)


-=jeff=-

Barf bag optional.

	I can think of other ways I'd choose to spend 10 spare k dollars I had 
laying around. My idea does use space aged material and lightweight building 
techniques, but  it can be used again and a gain for  many years to come. Also 
it can be shared with friends, used more than once, taken on a honeymoon and 
the tax deduction can help offset the tax burden of making a vacation a 
honeymoon. Space flight is a really cool concept, but I have my mind on more 
realistic-to_me_today kind of things. 

	Geoff looking forward to counting stars by candle light somewhere 
off the Maine coast in August.

> it can be shared with friends, used more than once, taken on a honeymoon and 
                                                                 ^^^^^^^^^
> the tax deduction can help offset the tax burden of making a vacation a 
> honeymoon. Space flight is a really cool concept, but I have my mind on more 
  ^^^^^^^^^
> realistic-to_me_today kind of things. 
>
>	Geoff looking forward to counting stars by candle light somewhere 
> off the Maine coast in August.

Sometimes I read too much into these things, and jump to conclusions with 
only minor evidence.  Does this mean you're buying another boat? 

;-)

PeterT

	Well you see we kind of have to. The S2 is a bit so small for a family 
which could get larger. Also Megann is never comfortable when it heels more 
than 15 degrees. And the idea of a honeymoon in a boat that doesn't have an 
enclosed head would be enough to make Robyn say no. 
	So despite the fact that Nuthin Shakin has served me well for many 
a sea mile, these last two years her short comings as a family cruiser have 
been made very clear to me. So in another move to make 1995 a year of major 
change I'm placing Nuthin Shakin up for sale. 

	We have agreed on our next boat to be named Scarlet Fire. If you're 
in the ZKO area, stop by and ask Robyn about it.

	;^)!
	Geoff

    
    So what does it all MEAN, Geoff. are you guys getting married?? HUH?
    
    

>the tax deduction can help offset the tax burden of making a vacation a 
>honeymoon.

ok, i give up.  how can a boat possibly be tax deductable?

- rich

    must be that republican tax proposal...

How did you guess Carol??
	Yes, we're getting married, we're buying a boat together and generally 
we're just being happy about things. Life has been really great for some time 
now and I'm looking forward to it staying that way well into the future. 

	Certainly a year of major chage, but it just all feels right.

	Geoff

    congrats and the best to both of you...

    Wellll jeeeeez - talk about dragging it out of ya.  Congrats big
    time!!!  couldn't happen to nicer people.  Like it's not every couple
    that would be ready and willing to buy a BOAT together !!! 
    
    C

Geez Carol, and I was trying to be subtle about it.  Geoff neatly saw through
that though and side-stepped it by answering the question I asked rather
then the question I implied ;-) 

Congrats to both!

I believe you can take out a mortgage on a boat and that may well be 
tax-deductible (2nd residence, right? ;-)

>I believe you can take out a mortgage on a boat and that may well be 
>tax-deductible

are any interest payments on a loan tax deductable?  like for a car loan, or
a student loan?

- rich

Geoff,

Talk about backing into a wedding announcement...;-)

I think that's wonderful news - congratulations to both of you!

tim

	interest on loans are no longer deductable.
	
	the second residence scheme *may* work, however with certain
	kinds of boats, you may be subject to a luxury tax!!
	
	Jay (NOT a tax consultant)  ;-)

	and YEAH!  congrats geoff!!  grate nooz.

Congratulations Geoff and Robyn!!!


Grate Newz!!!

- jeff

	Congratulations Robyn and Geoff!  So, do you have a particular F-27 in
mind, or are you still looking?

Mark

    yes, congrats! I saw that Robyn has MA plates on her Jeep (probably
    have been like that for a while!). You can deduct interest (at least in
    some part) from home equity loans, but loans such as car, student &
    credit cards are no longer on the list of those for which you can
    deduct interest.

    ain't love grate, geoff???  congrats...i just don't recommend children ;^)
    rfb

    I found out about this note when Mark called me yesterday to find out
    what was up after Geoff's rather cryptic entry!  Unfortunately, I was
    in the middle of something and didn't have time to fill him in on
    all the details. 
    
    Yes Mark,  we did find a boat.  We hope to close on it in a few weeks.
    Scarlet Fire is about to become a reality!!!  I'll tell you all about
    it when I see you for lunch next week!
    
    Thanks for all the congrats!
    
    Robyn

    re DC-X et al (about 20 replies or so back....)
    
    There are two SSTO (single stage to orbit) research efforts funded. One
    is to be a growth version of the DC-X, the other is to build on the
    work for the cancelled X-30 (I think that was the number, RR's "Orient
    Express"). Both are technology programs, not intended to produce
    operational vehicles.
    
    NASA tried to kill the DC-X program. It started in the SDI world.
    They've been quite successful at a number of lean and mean projects,
    which NASA appear to dislike as there is no place for their traditional
    layers of middle management. On top of that is the congressional
    oversight problem, i.e. if you really are running on a tight budget you
    can't afford the cycles to go fight the battles when Sen. Pork want's
    to redirect your funding to the Linoleum Research Inst. or whatever.
    However, DC-X has found a few champions and it continues. FYI, I picked
    up an issue of 'Medio' (a magazine on CDROM) that has some nice AVIs of
    DC-X test flights.
    
    The other program is focussing mainly on propulsion problems, notably
    SCRAMjets. Conventional ramjets slow the incoming air to subsonic speed
    before mixing it with fuel and burning the result. This limits you to
    around Mach 3 (maybe 4). SCRAMjets keep the fuel-air mix at supersonic
    speeds, or at least that is the theory. There probably be some flight
    tests of small test engines launched on surplus Minuteman ICBMs. The
    Russians have already started something similar (in conjunction with
    the French?) and have conducted a couple of flight tests.
    
    gary

congrats robyn and geoff.
when's the _huge_ day?
:-)


anyways, about tax deductions.  if you have a place to cook, sleep, and go to
the bathroom, i _think_ you can deduct.  leverage it to the max initially
and if you cannot deduct, pay it down (if ya can)...  i'm not a tax atty
either!

Congratulations, Geoff and Robyn!

I knew it had to happen some time!

adam :-)

    Congratulations Robyn and Geoff !!!   
    
    luv Scarlet Fire for a boat :)))
    
    Wes

    wow... come back to GRATEFUL after a few weeks away and find this
    news!!  yahooo!!!  congrats to both of you!!!!!!!  :^) :^) :^)
    
    					da ve

to those with an interest in astronomy, check out

http://astro-2.msfc.nasa.gov/

The new shuttle URL is 

http://shuttle.nasa.gov/

The shuttle and MIR are docked!  Break out the champagne!  Well, me and 
Gary and DC (who can't read this, but I'm sure he knows about it)
can celebrate ;-)

If you get a chance, take a gander outside at about 9:22 tonight to 
watch the combined MIR/Atlantis extravaganza pass overhead.  It will rise
in the northwest and climb almost directly overhead and then settle in 
the southeast.  I've got Mir for the past 2 nights and Atlantis
shortly after Mir last night.  Pretty neat stuff.  Last night Mir rose over 
my house, got VERY bright and then slowly faded and disappeared as it
headed towards Jupiter.  A few minutes later, Atlantis did the same thing
on a very similar path.  

Oh yeah, this info is for the Boston area.  Local papers (like the Globe did
here) may well carry info for you Coloradans (and others ;-)

Maybe I'll try to keep Hannah up a little late tonight.  Not too often 
you get to see this type of thing (though if I had my way, it would be
happening all the time ;-)

Later,
PeterT

    Yup. I watched the approach and docking this morning. Everything went
    very smooth, taking less time than expected. As I left they had
    completed the pressure checks and Houston/Kaliningrad were reminding
    the crews that they had to wait until the appointed time to open the
    hatches (gotta get those photo ops).
    
    Towards the end of the approach they had live images from both
    spacecraft on a split screen. Very impressive.
    
    For the next 5 days, 10 people (is that a record?) will live and work
    in the largest manmade structure ever put in space.
    
    gary

    I'm with petert...more exciting than fireworx...I missed it last night,
    but I plan to get the 'scope out tonight, or at least nekkid eye it...
    
    WO

Yep, 10 people is definitely a record.  Well, at least 10 humans ;-)
(not counting all those Minbari and Vulcans and others who might
be out there)

Got the following mail a few days ago.  Thought it might be relavant.

Subject: Aliens from space allowed to land in US


For the first time, the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service after
some prodding by the U.S. State Department, will officially allow two 
aliens from space to land in the United States. It seems that U.S. entry visas 
for cosmonauts Vladimir Dezurov and Grennady Strekalov were forgotten before 
the launch of Mir-18.  They were launched from Kazakstan on March 14 and are
scheduled to land either in Florida or California in early July aboard the
Space Shuttle Atlantis (STS-71). The U.S. State Department has, for the 
first time, asked for a waiver for "aliens from outer space."  The INS has 
agreed not to arrest the cosmonauts for illegal entry into the United States.



- -- Bob

>    but I plan to get the 'scope out tonight, or at least nekkid eye it...

Don't worry about the scope.  It will be going too fast to really track well.
I ran in to get my binocs last night as Mir was passing over.  Wasn't
really able to pick out much other than it was a bright dot.  And a 
shaky one at that. (After all, this is about 245 miles overhead!)

PeterT

    won't be seeing anything with the weather we are havein in COlo

>Subject: Aliens from space allowed to land in US
>For the first time, the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service after
>some prodding by the U.S. State Department, will officially allow two 
>aliens from space to land in the United States. 
     
>Vladimir Dezurov and Grennady Strekalov 
    I always wondered what space aliens names were like...pretty funny
    names, aren't they ? :)
    
    >The INS has agreed not to arrest the cosmonauts for illegal entry into 
    >the United States.
    
    well, at least they're doing something smart for a change :)
    
    yeah, I kinda figured after thinking about it, that the 'scope would be
    useless for tracking a moving target...
    



- -- Bob
    

    I dragged a couple of neighbor families out and we had a little party
    watching the pass last night.  Very clear.  Diana says it was "cool".
    
    Inspiring stuff!
    
    	dave_astronaut_in_my_dreams
    

Yes!  I went out Wed. night and saw it and went again last night.  I guess
it will go by again on Saturday night but we will more than likely have
clouds.

bob

    
    Sue and I also watched it Wednesday night, was really cool to see Mir go
    across the sky, then 2-3 minutes later see the shuttle following in the
    exact same path.....
    
    Hogan

    Last night was real bright and noticeable.  Even Amy was impressed.  
    Decided to let the kids sleep though.  It's showing up sometime after
    10 tonight, but only getting about 20 degrees high, maybe 
    below treeline for me and others.  Tomorrow it should be 
    noticable sometime around 8:30 or so.  Check the 
    paper for details.
    
    Amy thought we might be the only people in town watching this
    last night.  I'm willing to hope that there are more out
    there with a sense of wonder.
    
    PeterT
    
    

    
    Last night was one of the most impressive cosmic displays I've seen 
    in years.
    
    From the speed at which the crafts made their way across the sky,
    I'd say they were traveling at least 10,000MPH????
    
    F'in awesome!!!  I want to go next!!!!

    
    Oh yeah, I meant to ask why the heck they were so bright and 
    noticable, particularly after they got into the Eastern sky,
    I assume they were reflecting the sun.

	bright headlights.

    well, I missed it again last night, aagghhh, grrrrrrrr...I think the
    crafts travel at 17K mph as they orbit...around the world in 90
    minutes!!!
    
    I wanted to be an astronaut before I wanted to be a Beatle...but I'd
    hop on a shuttle if they invited me :)

    I stepped out into the back yard last night to catch the Shuttle/Mir
    pass and walked into a swarm of fireflies. I've never been that close
    to them before; very impressive (I wasn't the only one seeing lights..
    I checked)
    
    At first I thought the Shuttle/Mir was a plane flying over; I did not
    expect it to be that bright or fast.
    
    It was close enough to sunset that I expect it was reflecting sunlight,
    making it so bright. I don't know if it actually got brigther as it
    passed over, or it just moved into a darker area of sky.
    
    And yes, 17kmph is orbital speed for a nominal low earth orbit (100
    miles or so). Mir is slightly higher than that, but I'd guess the speed
    difference is small.
    
    gary

    re .198: (Some quick orbital machanics on my Pocket Decoder Ring tells
    me...)
    
    17,000 MPH, plus or minus about 3.
    
    8*)
    
    ...mike
    

Folks interested in knowing where the shuttle will be at whatever time in
orbit should check out the tracking software at:

    http://shuttle.nasa.gov/demos/tracksw

and the parent web page is at:

    http://shuttle.nasa.gov/demos/


The orbit vector data for the shuttle and Mir are located at:

    http://shuttle.nasa.gov/sighting/Orbiter.txt

and

    http://shuttle.nasa.gov/sighting/Mir.txt



- jeff

Hey now, to toot Digital's (and my) horn for just a minute, also
checkout the NEW Mission Control Hardware at:

	http:://shuttle.nasa.gov/orbit/mcontrol/

They're using a whole pile of DEC 3000 workstations now to run 
the mission control center (instead of the 30-year old *hardwired*
system they used to use).

This was the first mission that used the new control center, and it
was supposedly required in order to make that delicate docking manuever.

	-td

    Nice piece in the Sunday Boston Globe about female astronomers in the 
    northeast.  Front and center was a piece on Heidi something who is
    connected to someone in this notesfile .. ???? 
    
    

    she's usually connected to timtim...or so he says...%^)
    
    rfb   howdy timtim!!

Heidi Hammel.  Hey TimTim, has Heidi had much luck catching dead shows lately?
Sounds like she's been way busy.  Of course she can always rely on you
for the tapes ;-)

PeterT

    one last note before i head down under to decus australia.
    
    A buddy of mine came up this weekend, not a deadhead, but
    the first to call about Jerry.  We'd benn planning on catching the
    Perseid's, which I usually mention, but, under the circumstances...
    
    Any way, after we got the kids to sleep, and then the wives, we 
    hung out and watched some B5, and then headed outside.  Not much
    happening.  Saw one in about a half hour. Went back inside and
    saw the next B5.  Which particular episode was one of the more
    mindboggling things I've seen on TV (airs here in october, got a 
    sneak peek from the UK), and then head out under the stars again.
    My head is often among the stars.  And things had picked up a 
    bit.  Saw about 3 or 4 nice ones, one of which just both had
    us screaming "Whoa! Did you see that?!"  Coming from the NorthEast,
    directly overhead, a real short bright streak that ended in this
    huge flash of light.  This had just exploded and vanished. 
    Leaving a trail that lingered and enventually faded to bright 
    sparks after 3 or 4 seconds.
    
    Oops, the alarm has just gone off!  One hour to limo pickup and I still
    have a bit ot do!  I'm bringing some tapes of favorite shows 
    with me, and leaving them behind to share if I find any Aussie
    heads.
    
    
    Later!
    PeterT
    

    dark star......

    
    I came across a mention of great sky watching in a local paper
    and now i can't find the article.  PeterT or whoever else might 
    know ... the next two weeks supposed to have some interesting 
    sky_sights?
    
    

Hmmm, well there is a comet visible in the earlier morning hours
I believe.  Might be visible naked eye, and certainly with binoculars.
The Orionid meteor shower should be peaking next week or so.  Comet
De Vico is travelling through the eastern half of Leo.  Comet Bradfield
looks like it is almost in the same position, but a bit further to
the north.

That's about all that I can think of.  It could be that they are getting
a bit prematurely excited about Comet Hale-Bopp.  This is a comet that was
first spotted earlier this year, and has the potential to be a "Comet
of the Century!"  Of course, it could fizzle out like Kohoutek, which 
was all the rage when I was in college.  What has gotten astronomers
excited about Hale-Bopp is that it appears to be a HUGE comet, and is 
fairly visible, even in relatively modest scopes, even though it is 
still way past Jupiter.  It will reach it's closest point to the sun
in spring of 1997 (yes, 97!) and will be well positioned for viewing 
in the Northern Hemisphere.

Hale-Bopp's home page is:
http://newproducts.jpl.nasa.gov/comet/index.html

There is also some excitement going on about the Leonid meteor shower, which
every 33 years or so puts on some amazing shows.  But the 33 years dance
isn't really coming up till 1999, though people should be looking a few years 
ahead of and past that, since it doesn't always hit right on the mark.

Is that more than you wanted to know??   ;-)

PeterT

Now here's something interesting to look at while your our quaffing
beers or heading home or whatever.  You know that Venus/Moon conjuntion
we had last week or so?  I had mentioned that Saturn was out there too,
just not as noticible.  Well, I hadn't noticed it at the time, but
looked explicitly for it the next night and sure enough, it was pretty
dim compared to the other two, but it was right there just to the 
left and up from Venus.  Last night I noted Venus again, but the 
distance between Venus and Saturn had changed dramatically.  They were
much closer together and closer to being in the same horizontal plane.
So, the exercise, kids, is to just check out Venus over the next few
days as the sun goes down, and take a note of the dimmer light to the left
of it, that being Saturn.  And try to remember where they are relative
to each other, as they'll be swinging close and then dancing away 
again.  It's time like these when you can see why they were named 
planets (Greek for 'wanderer').  This is part of what I consider cool ;-)

PeterT


(Oh yeah, and there's a new Babylon 5 this weekend!)

    
    What direction will I see this?

	I've been seeing Venus in the western sky...

	btw PeterT, after you pointed out that we should be able to
	see Saturn too, I did!

	Debess

    re .214
    
    unless i am mistaken, that would be "up"...
    
    					da ve

And to the southwest...

PeterT

    definitely up 
    
    

About a week from now keep an eye out for Venus and the crescent
moon very close together in the western sky (i.e. right out the
LKG employee entrance, Deane :-)

I've been out looking for Messier objects lately, and it's *damn*
cold out there this time of year...that's the price you pay for
clear skies.

Dan

Hmmm, if M81 is the one I think it is, it should be almost visible in the 
same field as M82.  In my scope they are just about a telescope field apart.
Sort of like this

                   --





               /



M81 being the one on the bottom here.  This is reversed as I am thinking
of my telescope field which reverses right and left, but is consistent in
up/down direction here.  What are you looking through Dan?  And yes it is
damn cold outside, one of the reasons I haven't been out looking lately,
except for the occassional hunt for meteors and just star gazing with the 
nekkid eye.

PeterT

    
    Thanks for the tip.  I have troubles with this starry sky stuff, it all
    looks the same! :-)

    
    nekkid star gazing?
    
    cool!
    
    
    

    what's the morning star now that's just below the cliver of a moon we
    are having?? Venus or mars?
    
    rfb

>    what's the morning star now that's just below the cliver of a moon we
>    are having?? Venus or mars?

Jupiter.

PeterT

    REALLY!!  I didn't think Jupiter was ever a morning star
    
    rfb_star challenged

>    REALLY!!  I didn't think Jupiter was ever a morning star

Hmm, challenged indeed!  I'd be interested in the thought process 
that would make you think that!

PeterT

    yeah 
    i thought it was vice versa with venus
    and i thought we were looking at jupiter on wed nights in that college
    astronomy class
    
    chris_just_challenged

	I'm heading off for a long weekend to northern Maine and into
	the deep, dark woods...there will be no moon this weekend...
	I love going out onto a lake at night, with total darkness
	all around...and the sky!  just FULL of stars!

	Debess

    that's probably the problem, petert...no thought process involved on my
    part. %^)
    
    seriously, I thought morning stars were Venus and Mars...and Jupiter
    was an evening star...I guess they are both depending on the time of
    year???
    
    rfb

Any of the visible planets can be morning or evening 'stars' depending on 
where the earth is in relationship to where they are.   They will even travel 
in apparent loops (I think this is mostly with the outer planets, outer from
us that is) or 'retrograde' as the earth catches up to where they are in 
an sun-earth-planet line and then passes them.  Orbital exercises in your
head is a good way to stimulate some of those brain cells.

If any of you have been keeping track, Saturn, which last month was above
Venus, and as of last mention was about on the same plane with it, is now
very far below Venus, mostly because Venus moves so fast in its orbit.

I read something recently about a newly discovered comet which has the
possibility of putting on a real towards the end of March.  I'll 
let you know if anything pans out...

PeterT

	My wifes cousin is an avid stargazer. He has two scopes 
	a 13" and 6" (no comments please 8-))  
	his 13er is used for deep sky objects. and the 6 is for
	'other' stuff.... it's way cool except in the winter when
	the sky's so clear it's sooooo cold. he never wants to go inside
	(except for beer)  My favorite object is the Orion Nebula. 
	Stared at jupiter trying to see the SPOT last summer for the
	longest damn time....


	Toby 
	

    > I read something recently about a newly discovered comet which has the
    >  possibility of putting on a real towards the end of March.  I'll 
    
    Is this Hale-Bopp??  I hear its gonna be incredible about a year from
    now.  S'posed to be visible during the day, at one point, when there is
    a solar eclipse!  Cataclysm!  Disaster!  ;^)
    
    'noky

    re .232
    
    Hale-Bopp isn't expected to be visible until 1997.  Comet Hyakutake may
    be visible in late March this year.  We're overdue for a good comet.
    
    Jamie

    why am i suddenly reminded of the book "Lucifer's Hammer"???

    re: 348.234
    
    > why am i suddenly reminded of the book "Lucifer's Hammer"???
    
    Do explain, da MrStoryteller ve !  Not familiar with this one...
    
    'noky

    ooops... sorry...
    
    a few years ago there was a popular novel (well, the stuff on the cover
    said it was really popular anyway :^) about a comet that was discovered
    by an amateur astronomer and another team of professional star
    gazers...  the amateurs name was Hamer or Hammer or something (can't
    remember exactly) but the comet name was hyphenated to include all the
    names of the discoverers... this particular comet was supposed to
    put on quite a show for earth as it passed through our solar system...
    in fact, as it approached, it appeared earth would pass through it's
    tail creating quite a show...  
    
    well there were comet parties and fun stuff like that and the show 
    was indeed spectacular...
    
    until the comet swung around the sun and slammed into earth as it tried
    to continue its orbit...
    
    the rest of the story is about how the first few grops of survivors
    tried to get civilization going again...
    
    pretty cool story if you like that sort of thing...  i enjoyed the book
    immensely...
    
    					da ve

Hi PeterT (et al),

> Hmmm, if M81 is the one I think it is, it should be almost visible in the 
> same field as M82.

That's swell, but I can't find M82 either!!!  :-)

> What are you looking through Dan?

I've got a 6" dobsonian...I use the 25mm eyepiece for this stuff, to
get the largest possible field of view.  I've got a book with all the
Messier objects in it, but the clues re. location are proving a bit tricky...

Clear skies!

Dan

Dan,
   I've got Sky Atlas 2000, which I use to help me starhop.  The basic method
is to latch onto something that you can be sure of, and then in small hops, 
move over to what you are less familiar with.  The images are inverted
right->left, so you have to transpose them mentally yourself.  I have
a C-8, fairly standard Celestron, which I can (roughly) polar align
and then use the setting circles to help me get to the general area, and
then consult the star charts for a guide map to narrow things down.  
Dobs are a bit harder to do with this, since they move differently.
It might be worth investing in a Telrad finder to help you poke 
around, but that depends on your wallet and inclination.  A good star chart
is probably the best investment you can make on helping find these 
guys.

PeterT

re:      <<< Note 348.228 by STAR::OCTOBR::DEBESS "Wake Now, Discover..." >>>

one particular time when we were on lake sunapee in nh driftly
along and my friend Big Joe said all those dots of light are
pinholes to heaven....

without permission 
     
    
    
    
           <<< ATLANA::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]ATLANTA.NOTE;1 >>>
             -< Atlanta -- Host of the 1996 Summer Olympic Games! >-
================================================================================
Note 632.0                   Quick! Up In The Sky...                     1 reply
SUFRNG::SUFRNG::VORE_S "Raise The Standard"          95 lines   6-MAR-1996 07:44
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: WX-TALK Digest - 4 Mar 1996 to 5 Mar 1996 (fwd)
> Subject: Tethered Satellite Will Be Visible
> 
> FYI
>                    The Hampton Roads Central Library
>                (You don't drive to it; you point to it.)
>                   Your *REASON* to have the Internet
> Digital Library of Hampton Roads           E A S Y  L I N K S
> Front Entrance                              Your WWW Hotlist
> http://wwwp.exis.net/~cwt/    http://www.infi.net/~cwt/easylink.html
> 
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Date: 96-03-05 12:26:38 EST
> 
> CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (AP) -- The satellite that broke free from space shuttle
> Columbia will be visible next week to people looking skyward in cities across
> the country.  The satellite and its dangling 12-mile cord will be visible to
> the naked eye just before sunrise as it travels through the sky, from the West
> Coast to the East.  "It should be an absolutely awesome sight because the 20
> kilometers of tether, assuming that it's all strung out, will be definitely
> visible," astronaut Jeffrey Hoffman said Tuesday from space shuttle Columbia.
> 
> "It will be the only time for most people that they'll ever be able to see
> something in Earth orbit that's other than a point of light.  They'll
> actually see a line moving through the sky," he said.  Here is a list,
> provided by NASA, of some major cities over which the satellite will fly.
> The satellite is traveling in an elliptical orbit, between 200 and 250 miles
> above Earth.
> 
> Times shown are local. The duration of each sighting will be from one to
> three minutes.
> ------
> ABILENE, Texas - March 5, 6:28 a.m.; March 7, 5:31 a.m.; March 8, 5:47 a.m.;
> March 9, 6:01a.m.
> ALBUQUERQUE, N.M.-March 6, 5:47 a.m.; March 8, 4:47 a.m.; March 9, 5:01 a.m.
 ***********
> ATLANTA-March 6, 6:15 a.m.; March 8, 5:16 a.m.; March 9, 5:30 a.m.
> a.m.; March 8, 5:47 a.m.; March 9, 6:01 a.m.
 ***********
> BATON ROUGE, La.-March 6, 5:14 a.m.; March 7, 5:31 a.m.; March 8, 5:47
> a.m.
> BIRMINGHAM, Ala.-March 6, 5:15 a.m.; March 7, 5:32 a.m.; March 9, 4:30
> a.m.
> BROWNSVILLE, Texas-March 4, 6:06 a.m.; March 7, 5:31 a.m.; March 8,
> 5:47 a.m.; March 9, 6:01 a.m.
> CHARLESTON, S.C.-March 5, 5:57 a.m.; March 7, 5 a.m.; March 8, 5:16
> a.m.; March 9, 5:30 a.m.
> CHARLOTTE, N.C.-March 6, 6:17 a.m.; March 8, 5:16 a.m.; March 9, 5:30
> a.m.
> DALLAS-March 7, 5:31 a.m.; March 8, 5:47 a.m.; March 9, 6:01 a.m.
> EL PASO, Texas-March 5, 5:28 a.m.; March 6, 5:46 a.m.; March 8, 4:47
> a.m.; March 9, 5:01 a.m.
> FRESNO, Calif.-March 8, 5:19 a.m.; March 9, 5:33 a.m.
> HONOLULU-March 2, 5:56 a.m.; March 3, 6:19 a.m.
> HOUSTON-March 4, 6:08 a.m.; March 6, 5:14 a.m.; March 7, 5:31 a.m.,
> March 8, 5:47 a.m., March 9, 6:01 a.m.
> HUNTSVILLE, Ala.-March 6, 5:16 a.m.; March 7, 5:33 a.m.; March 9, 4:30
> a.m.
> JACKSONVILLE, Fla.-March 5, 5:56 a.m.; March 6, 6:15 a.m.; March 8,
> 5:16 a.m.; March 9, 5:30 a.m.
> LAS VEGAS-March 7, 5:04 a.m.; March 8, 5:19 a.m.
> LOS ANGELES-March 7, 5:02 a.m.; March 8, 5:18 a.m.; March 9, 5:32 a.m.
> LUBBOCK, Texas-March 5, 6:29 a.m.; March 7, 5:31 a.m.; March 8, 5:47
> a.m.; March 9, 6:01 a.m.
> MEMPHIS, Tenn.-March 7, 5:32 a.m.; March 8, 5:48 a.m.
> MIAMI-March 4, 5:34 a.m.; March 5, 5:55 a.m.; March 8, 5:16 a.m.; March
> 9, 5:30 a.m.
> NATCHEZ, Miss-March 6, 5:14 a.m.; March 7, 5:31 a.m.; March 8, 5:47
> a.m.
> NASHVILLE, Tenn.-March 7, 5:33 a.m.; March 9, 4:30 a.m.
> NEW ORLEANS-March 6, 5:14 a.m.; March 7, 5:31 a.m.; March 8, 5:48 a.m.
> NORFOLK, Va.-March 8, 5:17 a.m.; March 9, 5:31 a.m.
> OKLAHOMA CITY-March 8, 5:47 a.m.; March 9, 6:01 a.m.
> ORLANDO, Fla.-March 5, 5:55 a.m.; March 6, 6:15 a.m.; March 8, 5:16 a.m.;
> March
> 9, 5:30 a.m.
> PHOENIX, Ariz.-March 6, 5:46 a.m.; March 7, 6:03 a.m.; March 8, 6:19 a.m.
> PORT ARANSAS, Texas-March 4, 6:07 a.m.; March 7, 5:31 a.m.; March 8,
> 5:47 a.m.; March 9, 6:01 a.m.
> SAN ANTONIO, Texas-March 4, 6:07 a.m.; March 5, 6:27 a.m.; March 6,
> 5:14 a.m.; March 7, 5:31 a.m.; March 8, 5:47 a.m.; March 9, 6:01 a.m.
> SAN BERNARDINO, Calif-March 7, 5:02 a.m.; March 8, 5:18 a.m.; March 9,
> 5:32 a.m.
> SAN DIEGO-March 6, 4:46 a.m.; March 7, 5:02 a.m.; March 8, 5:18 a.m.;
> March 9, 5:32 a.m.
> SAN FRANCISCO-March 9, 5:33 a.m.
> TAMPA, Fla.-March 5, 5:55 a.m.; March 6, 6:14 a.m.; March 9, 5:30 a.m.
> TUCSON, Ariz.-March 6, 5:45 a.m.; March 7, 6:03 a.m.
> WEST PALM BEACH, Fla.-March 4, 5:35 a.m.; March 5, 5:55 a.m.; March 8,
> 5:16 a.m.; March 9, 5:30 a.m.
> WINSTON-SALEM, N.C.-March 8, 5:16 a.m.; March 9, 5:30 a.m.
> YUMA, Ariz.March 6, 5:45 a.m.; March 7, 6:02 a.m.; March 8, 6:18 a.m.
> 
> ------------------------------

Unfortunately the shuttle was flying a low inclination orbit (stayed relatively
close to the equator) so that it won't be visible for us up here in the
northern climes.  The only time we usually get to see the shuttle go by 
is when they are catching up with Mir.  Mir, being launched from Russia, at a 
much higher lattitude than Florida, swings over a greater part of the globe,
so we get a better chance at catching it.  Some of the secret shuttle missions
(classified by the armed services) also used to swing pretty far north, as they
were usually deploying spy sattellites that needed to cover Russia too.
The military has pretty much gone back to using unmanned rockets to 
launch these now.

PeterT

    speaking of an awesome sight in the skys...Sat. nite in the
    Highcountry, right after suset and in the western sky, there was *THE*
    brightest object I've ever seen in the sky. For ahwile this thing looked
    like it was traveling towards me. andd because it was low in the
    Horizon, had like a "cross" effect...
                         |
                      ---*----
                         |
    it was only "up" for about 20 mins max, then dissapeared behind the
    Mosquito Range
    
    any of you stargazers know what she was? I'm assuming a planet, of
    course, but which one? I'm also assuming it was so bright cause of
    where we were, highcountry. 

    
    Boeing, 767.

>   Boeing, 767.

;-)

Venus.


Now don't go telling me you didn't think that could be an
evening star!

PeterT

    petert....%^)
    
    that was definitely the brightest planet I've ever seen in the sky..I
    ran back inside the house and made everyone come out and look. The next
    nite , in the city, Venus was no where near as bright as at 10,000 ft.
    
    rfb

	While down in New Zealand, I got to do a bit of star-gazing, when it
wasn't overcast.  Mostly nekkid eye, but once with a pair of borrowed binoculars
(my Unitron (just say no to mirror images :)) wouldn't fit in my suitcase).

	It was definately neat to see stars and constellations that I hadn't
seen before.  I hadn't realized how much of the sky I recognised and took for
granted until it all changed.  Even familiar constellations were different -
being upside-down.  There's a group of stars that NZers call The Sauce-pot, with
the bottom being what we consider to be Orions belt, and the handle being the
sword that hangs from it here (there, it's above it).  I had one very clear
night in a remote place, that was very impressive.  The Magellenic clouds were
bright, as was much of the sky, except for a spot called the Coalsack, which is
a black spot adjacent to the Southern Cross.

Mark

    I was playing around on the Web during the snowstorm last week,
    as my daughter was home from school, and I wanted to show her
    something.  I'd already cached away the bookmark for Astronomy
    in Japan (don't have the URL here, check Alta Vista ;-)
    so I pulled that up and it came up with some Japanese history
    on the constellations.  Orion was "The Hand Drum", a Japanese
    instrument with two heads on either end, and a narrow middle
    in a more or less hourglass shape.  Orion looks something 
    like this
    
    
    
                            *                     *
    
    
    
    
    
                       
    
    
                                 *   *   *
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
                            *                    *
    
    
    (missing a few stars here ;-)  
    
    The belt was the middle, and lines across the shoulder and leg stars
    make the drum heads.  As I went out the next night, I kept seeing
    this big drum in the sky ;-)
    
    
    They also have a name for it when it is on the horizon, when it is
    more horizontal,  Mitshu Boshi, I believe, The Sleeve, being sort
    of a trapezoid seen as the sleeve of a women's kimono.  
    
    And then of course, there is the Pleiades, known as "The Brush Daub"
    (or was that 'brush dab'?)  and actually a Japanese word known 
    fairly well here in the US:  Subaru!   Just check out their logo ;-)
    We just bought our 2nd Subaru recently.  It seemed appropriate
    (and the all wheel drive has come in very handy recently...)
    
    PeterT
    

Well, I finally found M81 & M82 last night, after an hour or so...I
knew I was in the right part of the sky, but all I have is a basic
star wheel...I'll have to see about getting a star map.

If I can get real motivated this week I'll try getting up early (4AM)
to try to spot Comet Hyakutake...or maybe I'll sleep in instead!

Dan

    Congratulations Dan!  Star charts do help a lot.  You should also,
    if you haven't already, check out Sky and Telescope.  Lots of 
    pointers on locating stuff, and good sources for astro texts.
    I'm anxious to see what Hyakutake will look like too, but 
    4 AM is a daunting prospect.  But within a week it should be up
    earlier.  In two weeks, it will cross the whole northern sky in 
    about a week.  Should be somewhat impressive.  If it's clear,
    and the comet is looking good, I'll press Amy to let the kids
    stay up a little late to see it.
    
    PeterT

    Found Comet Hyakutake last night, about 1-1:30 in the morning.  Might
    have been a naked eye object in darker skies, but it was pretty 
    easy to see with a typical pair of binoculars.  Pete's quick
    comet hunting guide follows :-)
    
       It's not all that hard to find, It's a little bit above and to 
    the left of bottom left corner of a triangle of stars that look
    a bit like this
    
    
    				#
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    		*					* 2
    
    			* 3
    
    
    Okay, there are 4 stars there, But 3 and 2 are the bottom, and
    the comet is closer and above star 3.  The top star is Arcturus,
    in the constellation Bootes.  Arcturus is easy to find.  Start at the 
    Big Dipper, and follow the handle of it outward in a curve.  The
    bright star it points to is Arcturus. You might notice a slightly
    reddish color.  Star #2 is Spica, down and to the right of Arcturs
    about the same distance away as the tip of the handle.  It's
    the next brighter star in the same vicinity.  Star number 3
    is some greek letter Librae (beta Librae?) in the constellation
    Libra (Spica is in Virgo).  #3 is not as bright as the other two, and 
    about the same brightness as the unmarked star.  The unmarked
    star makes a roughly equilateral triangle iwth Arcturus and Spica, 
    and Hyaktuke is skimming #3 to go straight up to the left of Arcturus.
    And then past the tip of the handle, and byt the North Star...
    
    In binoculars it looks like a round fuzzy patch about the size of
    the full moon (as seen without binouclars).  It'll pick up speed
    and be racing across the sky next week, but it's still pretty closse to
    where I saw it last night.  If you've got the binoculars, and the 
    skys are clear, it should be up on the horizon a bit before midnight.
    
    PeterT
    

Anybody else had a chance to check this out yet?  It was an easy 
naked eye object over the weekend, and it should be getting brighter.
The Boston Globe today has a fairly decent finder chart for it.

It'll be gone in a few weeks, so get that once in a lifetime 
view!!

PeterT

	I had a look Saturday night, but there was some cumulo-granite in the
way.  I have a hill close to my house on the east side, and when I was looking,
I could just see Arcturas and Spica over the top.  I meant to go out later for a
look, but sleep intervened.  I'll try again this week.

Mark

    For us amateurs out there, Bruce Schw... from Channel 4 Boston says
    the comet is between the big dipper and little dipper.

    I also just found out that there will be a total lunar eclipse on
    April 3rd which should make for some nice dark sky. Hopefully it
    will be a clear day!  

    /Ken

>    For us amateurs out there, Bruce Schw... from Channel 4 Boston says
>    the comet is between the big dipper and little dipper.

Schwaegler?    Bruce knows his stuff pretty well, so I'm guessing that
you might have mis-heard him.  NEXT WEEK it will be between the two,
but right now it is well below the Big Dipper.  This thing is coming 
very close to the earth (in astronomical terms, something like 9 million
miles at closest)  and is moving a good deal from night to night.  
But it really picks up speed in the next few days, and if I remember
correctly, at its closest (next Monday, 3/25) it will travel the length
of a full moon in an hour.

Last night was not particularly good viewing.  I did manage to pick
it out with the binoculars, but there was a lot of haze on
the horizon that was obscuring it.  I woke up around 3AM and took
a look outside, but the clouds had covered everything up.  Looks 
like clouds and rain for the next few days.  Hopefully it will
clear up over the weekend.

PeterT

	I found it!  I was out just before 1:00 this morning looking for it, and
at first I missed it.  Then I noticed a smudge with my naked eyes, and confirmed
it with the binoculars.  It seemed to be forming a triangle with what I think
were alpha- and beta- libra (though the stars I wanted to confirm that ident
were behind the previously mentioned hill).

	It was very impressive.  It seemed that it was pulsating, as if the
comet cloud was shifting around and was getting brighter and dimmer depending on
the position of the most reflective stuff.  Or, it could have been thin high
level atmospheric clouds passing in front of it.

Mark

  Or, it could have been thin high
level atmospheric clouds passing in front of it.

;-)

I think this is the more likely explanation, but hey, who am I 
to interpret what you see!

I�just found a web page that shows that we will have a full eclipse of
the moon on April 3rd, at which time Hyakutake will be heading 
towards Venus.  Should be a fun night.  And it will probably be
raining cats and dogs ;-)

PeterT

>   Found Comet Hyakutake last night, about 1-1:30 in the morning.  Might
>   have been a naked eye object in darker skies, but it was pretty 
>   easy to see with a typical pair of binoculars.

Hey, good job, Pete!  We have fairly dark skies in Townsend (MA), and
we caught it this past Sunday at 3:30AM...it was easily visible to
the naked eye (so much so that Linda thought she must have got it
wrong...but she was right!).  At that point it was pretty much due
South, a bright fuzzball with no tail, but a hint of being squeezed
out to the west a bit.

If the weather cooperates this weekend I'm expecting a steady stream
of visitors, as we've been telling everybody about it...Linda made
up a quickie spotting guide for the Brownies, based on the S&T article.

Dan

>    For us amateurs out there, Bruce Schw... from Channel 4 Boston says
>    the comet is between the big dipper and little dipper.

Just as an aside, we've started switching to Channel 7 in Boston
(WHDH?), as their morning weatherman Todd Gross is an active amateur
astronomer (always posting in sci.astro.amateur).  They've had
pretty good graphics, and they even put up a drawing sent in by
a local skygazer...

Dan

	checked out the comet on Saturday night...and I thought it
	was a mighty cool thing to see (although someone who was with
	me said it was "underwhelming"! - no way!)

	it's very easy to spot.  with binoculars the tail is quite
	impressive - not so easily seen with just my eyes...

	tonight is supposed to be the best night to see it.

	Debess

I saw the comet on Saturday night too...at 2am or so as we were loading out the
equipment, post-gig...no binoculars around, but ez to see nekkid eye...I may
give it a go 2nite with my 'scope

Wes

    Friday and Saturday nights were a bit better than last nights
    viewing, too many damn clouds last night.  But it was still visible
    part of the time.  Saturday was probably the best viewing.  Clear
    dark skies, no lights around, and after adapting to the dark
    (you need a good 15-20 minutes of no light to get really
    dark-adapted, got to build up that rhodopsin, you know!)
    a nice faint tail could be seen stretching out far beyond the
    comet.  I was out for a good 20 minutes or so each night.
    When I came inside, I thought, 'you know, Pete, the way you were
    looking and bending your head, I bet you could see the comet
    through the skylight...'.  Sure enough, at the right angle, sitting on
    the end of the smaller couch, the comet came through nice and 
    clearly.  I was thinking of waking the kids up again so they
    could see it without going outside, but I thought I might catch
    hell from Amy if I tried that, so I let them sleep.  Saturday
    night, Sunday morning, I tried photgraphing the comet through
    the skylight (ASA 200 film, F4, held open by hand for a few minutes
    on a tripod.) It might not come out, but what the hey.  If the 
    skies improve over the next few days, I'll pull out the telescope,
    and attach the camera on there for a piggy-back mount.  That way
    I can track the stars, and get a hopefully nicer image without
    the star trails.  
    
    Tim, you should be able to see this through your skylights, but the
    opportunity may have already passed.  It should be pretty close to 
    the top of the Big Dipper tonight.  I think...
    
    PeterT

    
    What time will this be passing by tonight?

	I was outside around 10 on Saturday...so that's probably a 
	good time for tonight?

    See yesterday's Globe for an article and viewing guide.

After several sky-checks throughout the night, the clouds and haze
finally disappeared at around 1 am saturday night.  I stepped onto
the patio, looked up and there it was clear as a bell!  The comet
looked so cool!  It had a very long tail or streak behind it. It sure
was wierd seeing something like that in the sky since it's not
normally there... I can see how people from centuries ago would freak
at seeing a comet like this.

As far as where to look, I just looked up ;-)  I got the Boston Globe
yesterday which basically shows a little map with the Big Dipper to the NE.
The comet is just to the left or west of the Big Dipper.  I didn't have a 
map on saturday, but didn't need one either.

I read that this comet was only discovered on Jan 21... is this true ??
 
/Ken

How Comet Hyakutake B2 Was Discovered 

Gekkan Tenmon (Monthly Astronomy) 
Yuji Hyakutake 
April 1996 
(Translated to English by Masaki Okamoto) 

I searched for a comet for only 4 hours in two nights in January, because
we had a long spell of disagreeable weather here since my discovery of
1995Y1 a month ago. 

On January 30, as it was likely to clear up at dawn, I left home for my
obse rvation place. I wanted to reach there at 3:30 AM, when the Moon would
set in the west. The sky was in a nice condition when I left home, but I
found low clouds flowing from the west at the observation place. 

The zenith of the sky began to clear around 4:00 AM. I tried to turn my
binoculars to see Comet 1995Y1. When the binoculars were pointing almost
straight up, I managed to catch three objects together , M101 , NGC5474
and then 1995Y1 a little smaller than M101. My comet was about 9th
magnitude, 8' in diameter. As I made a sketch sitting in a awkward posture,
I got a pain in the neck. After sketching I began comet searching freely as
usual. 

It was about 20 minutes later when I unexpectedly came across an object
like a comet. At first I didn't know where it was because of the clouds.
Judging from the constellations sometimes glimpsed between floating clouds,
the object seemed to be in the southeast of Crow Constellation. I had
moved my binoculars to the southern part of the sky without being aware of
it. 

I was surprised when I mentally connected the stars. Unbelievable! I had
thought I already knew the pattern of these stars well! 

I was very familiar with the star map of this area because I had often
confirmed 1995Y1 there! I had completely memorized the arrangement of
stars around there. The memory was still fresh to me. Too new to forget! 

I said to myself, "I must be dreaming ." 

I left my binoculars for a while to calm myself down , and then I started
drawing the comet-like object. It was much more condensed than 1995Y1. It
was still dark but easy to see. 11th magnitude, 2.5' in diameter.

It was at 4:50 AM when I looked at my watch after marking its position.
What I had to confirm first was whether it was moving or not. At 5:40 AM
the morning twilight began. I again went back to the binoculars. I couldn't
confirm the motion of the object by comparing it with the stars around it.
At last I gave up trying to confirm. I concluded to myself that the
"possible comet" should be coming directly toward the Earth. I quit
searching when I heard the siren for 6:00 AM at the foot of the hill. 

I came back home and checked comets which had already been discovered but I
couldn't find reports referring to the comet-like object in question. So I
began to draw up a report. I copied the position of this morning's
comet-like object on page 332 on Ura nometria 2000 from the previous
sketch. I had already marked the position of 1995Y1 on the star atlas. 

I was stunned by the curious coincidence. The new object was in a very
similiar location to where1995Y1 was found . A few minutes different in R.A
and 3 degrees to the east in Dec. 

I sent the report to the New Astronomical Findings Infomation Department at
the National Observatory. I also sent a fax to Syuichi Nakano (the
Calculation Center of O.A.A) and moreover left a message in his answering
machine. 

At midnight the condition of the sky was poorer than the previous night,
and what was worse, a drizzle began to fall at 0:00 AM. Just as I had
decided to give up trying to confirm the object that morning, a fax came to
me saying that my find was confirmed. 

The fax was sent from Ikari in Otu to Nakano at 2:58 AM. And it was sent to
me from Nakano again at 3:03AM. I was so glad to be given such a quick
response because all I could do at the time was wait. I felt relaxed when I
read the fax. 

This is the second comet for me, but I can't feel pride in it. I feel
terriblly relieved that it was not a mistake. I may feel the same way even
if I find more comets. 

MARCH 25. The comet is visible all night in the north. After
dark, examine the sky about two fist-widths left of the Big
Dipper's handle. (This point is near the bowl of the much fainter
Little Dipper.) 

The view will improve late in the evening as the Moon, nearly
first quarter, gets low near setting. By midnight the Big Dipper is
nearly overhead in the north, and the comet appears about two
fist-widths directly below its center. 

MARCH 26. Tonight the comet is near the rather dim North Star,
Polaris, which is about halfway up the sky due north. To find
Polaris in the evening, locate the Big Dipper very high in the
northeast to north, almost overhead. Follow the line formed by the
two front stars of the Big Dipper's bowl -- called the "Pointers"
-- about three fist-widths toward the lower left. (If you're looking
later at night, they point straight down instead.) Moonlight will
interfere with the view to some extent until the first-quarter
Moon sets around 1 or 2 a.m. local time. 


MARCH 27. Early evening is when Comet Hyakutake is highest
from this date on -- but moonlight is an increasing problem from
now until April 5th. 

Tonight, if you go out soon after the end of twilight, look about
one fist-width (or maybe slightly more) to the left of Polaris in
the north. (Find Polaris from the Big Dipper as described above.)
The Moon sets around 2 a.m. tonight, leaving a darker sky. If you
look at that time or later, the comet is about 1-1/2 fist-widths
below Polaris. 

MARCH 28-29. After twilight ends, look west for dazzlingly bright
Venus, the "Evening Star." To Venus's upper right by about three
fist-widths at arm's length, spot the bright star Capella. It's not
nearly as bright as Venus but brighter than any other star in the
area. Venus and Capella will be your landmarks for finding Comet
Hyakutake for the next month. 

On the evenings of March 28th and 29th, find the point halfway
between Capella and Polaris. Look for the comet a little below
that point. It is fading now as it flies Sunward away from Earth. 

MARCH 30-31. Locate Capella and Polaris soon after nightfall as
described above. Find the point a third of the way from Capella
to Polaris, and look about one fist-width at arm's length below
that point. 

APRIL 1-4. Although the comet is shrinking and fading, its head
and general outline may start becoming more sharply defined, a
process that should continue through late April. A comet's tail
always points in the direction away from the Sun; currently the
Sun is below the west-northwestern horizon at nightfall. This
means the tail will extend upward, leaning a little to the right,
for the rest of the month. 

In early April, look about two fist-widths to the lower right of
Capella and almost three fist-widths to the right or upper right of
Venus (which, incidentally, is next to the Pleiades star cluster; take
a look with your binoculars). The modestly bright star near the
comet these nights is Alpha Persei, also known as Mirfak. 

In early evening on April 3rd, skywatchers in the northeasternmost
United States and Canada get a brief respite from moonlight --
because the full Moon goes into an eclipse! The Moon will be
totally eclipsed from 6:26 to 7:53 p.m. Eastern Standard Time
(which will be during twilight for points farther south and west).
For more about this eclipse and what to watch for, see the
companion article April's Total Eclipse of the Moon. 

APRIL 5-12. The sky is now completely free of moonlight shortly
after darkness falls. You'll find the comet two fist-widths to the
right of Venus, possibly just a little lower depending on the date
and your location. The moderately bright (2nd-magnitude) star
near the comet's head from April 7th to 11th is Algol, or Beta
Persei. During this period the comet should be at its minimum
brightness for April. 

APRIL 13-28. Scan low in the northwest every clear evening right
around the end of twilight. In mid-April the comet is to the
lower right of brilliant Venus by about two fist-widths, and in late
April by three fist-widths. 

During this time the comet should brighten again, and the tail
may lengthen even as the head becomes more compact. The
comet's head will get a little lower to the horizon each day. By
late April it will be so low that you'll need a good, open view of
the northwestern horizon. You'll also have to look a little before
twilight fades away completely. Bring the binoculars! 

APRIL 29 and later. The comet swings closest to the Sun (21
million miles) on May 1st, but by then it has become hidden in
the Sun's glare. After its solar flyby ("perihelion"), the comet
swings rapidly south; it never comes back into view for observers
at mid-northern latitudes. Rapidly fading, it becomes an object for
Southern Hemisphere astronomers in mid- and late May. By
summer it will have faded to telescope-only visibility. 

	Saw the Comet sunday nite in Southwick mass...

	was at my wife's cousins the astronomer. He never put the
	mirror in his scope so had to see it nekkid  8-)
	quite impressive. Actually I was impressed to be able to see
	anything after all the Oats we went through  8-)


	P.S.  I remember Comet Ka-hoe-tek being much brighter


	Toby

	i looked at the comet monday nite, around 9pm or so.
	it was slightly overcast, but i could make out the comet through
	my binoculars.
	
	as i was looking at it, a bright object caught my eye crossing my
	field of vision. so i started following it. it was moving very
	fast. it wasn't a jet, and it wasn't a shooting star, cuz i
	followed it to the horizon and out of sight. it looked like a
	star, but it was moving across the sky. it was moving from SW to
	NE. i suspect it was a satelite? are there any which orbit in
	this direction? how can i find out? did anyone else see it? how
	many questions does it take to end this paragraph?
	
	i mentioned it to dave clark last nite, and he said he saw the
	same thing. although, i don't know what time he was viewing, or
	what he was doing just prior to viewing  ;-)

    re .269
    
    It could have been a satellite.  Away from light pollution, you can see
    literally dozens per hour zooming overhead.  Sometimes they're in
    clusters, so you see a triangle (e.g.) of three lights swooshing by. 
    SW to NE is the track I see them follow.
    
    Another possibility is the linked up shuttle-Mir space station, which
    is a bright object, but I don't know if it's visible from our latitude.
    
    Keep looking up!
    
    Jamie

>    It could have been a satellite.  ...
>    SW to NE is the track I see them follow.

	thanks, jamie
	
>    Another possibility is the linked up shuttle-Mir space station, which
>    is a bright object, but I don't know if it's visible from our latitude.

	yeah, that thought crossed my mind too.
	i saw the shuttle, oh 10 years ago? one august when we were at
	the beach. it streaked across the sky W->E and was visible to the
	naked eye. the object i saw monday nite was traveling about the
	same speed, it seemed. fast!  :-)
	

    Shuttle-Mir is most definitely visible in New England. It is in a high
    inclination orbit and is very bright and very fast. The International
    Space Station will be in the same orbit, driven by the latitude of the
    Russian launch complex.
    
    Supposedly it is possible to see the shuttle during last couple of
    minutes of its ascent to orbit from NE when it launches to this
    inclination (night launches, obviously).
    
    gary

There will be a lunar eclipse tomorrow (4/3/96), just after the moon
rises at sunset, here on the East Coast.  So look to the eastern
skies about 6:30PM EST...it's also rumoured to be a good time to
check out comet Hyakutake, which has been somewhat washed out by
the waxing moon lately (unless you stay up late).

Dan

>                         -< A portent!  But of what? >-

  Well, since you ask...
  
  The moon represents the world's music critics.
  
  It sheds not light of its own but reflects only the brilliant, blinding
  light of the world's musicians.  (The sun.)

  The comet is Jerry Garcia.

  Only in the temporary blotting of the critics' (reflected) radiance can we
  fully recognize and appreciate the passing of Garcia.   - JayC.

>  Only in the temporary blotting of the critics' (reflected) radiance can we
>  fully recognize and appreciate the passing of Garcia.   - JayC.

	what 'we' are you talking about JayC?!?

>	what 'we' are you talking about JayC?!?

  Uh, people of earth?  (Earth representing, uh, the place where the people
  of earth live?)

> So look to the eastern
> skies about 6:30PM EST...it's also rumoured to be a good time to
> check out comet Hyakutake, which has been somewhat washed out by
> the waxing moon lately (unless you stay up late).

  BTW, I hear peak viewing of the comet (tonight, the evening of the
  eclipse) should be around 8 PM.  A few eclipse/comet parties are in the
  making for 6:15 on...
  
  I plan to take my girlfriend's and my 5 kids to the darkest, highest part
  of Arlington I can find...  - JayC.

    awesome sight last nite to watch the moon eclipse.  

>   awesome sight last nite to watch the moon eclipse.  

It was cool...we had a mini star party with another family in town...the
sky got nice and dark, so we were zipping around the sky checking out
the Orion nebula, and a couple of clusters...I went searching for the
Whirlpool galazy, but couldn't find it (Yes, PeterT, I need star charts,
I'm convinced now! :-)

It was amazing to see the sharpness of the earth's shadow as it moved
across the face of the moon...nice and curved.

Dan

I checked it out, but, not in Groton.
I had some relative duty in Salem MA last
night, where light pollution is at a high.
but, i did see it... not bad!!

Just picked up some comet photos.  I'm modifying this note slighlty from 
the one I left over in the astro file, so if it looks like it's following
a previous convesation, well, it is!  I'll probably be carrying these
around for a few days, so if anyone wants to catch me over in
ZK3-3x37 (follow the hall between the Hertz and Defermat conference
rooms) to check them out....
 
I'm pretty impressed actually.  The fact that the comet was very close
to polar north helped immensely I presume, since there are hardly any
star trails.  Some of the stars themselves look mighty big in some 
of the photos though.  I'll probably blow one or two of them
up for a keepsake.  I went out and bought a cable release after taking
these shots, but even during the eclipse, Hyakutake was a bit fainter,
and shortly falling into the trees in my neighborhood.

PeterT

oh yeah,  Using 400 ASA, I'd guess my exposures from 30 seconds, to 
a bit over 5 minutes.  And there is definite movement in the 
position of the comet from the start of the session to the end,
some half hour, 45 minutes later.

	what is the planet (I assume) directly to the right of the full
	moon now?

Full moon?  Makes it over in the Eastern sky.  Most likely Jupiter.  I've
been catching vague glimpses of it through my trees as I head to bed
lately, but haven't seen it clear the top of them just yet.

PeterT

    speaking of full moon...that blue moon last weekend was killer! esp at
    10,400 feet! Clear as a bell and bright as a headlite on a northbound
    train!!
    
    rfb

In preparation for Family Stargazing Night this Thursday (7/25/96)
at 9:15 behind the Hawthorne Brook Middle School in Townsend, Mass.
(and you're all invited, should you be in the area), I've been out
three nights in a row, trying out the 8" Schmidt-Cassegrain telescope
my boss lent me for the occasion.  Jupiter has been spectacular...last
night I saw Io's shadow crossing the face, just above the equator.
Sunday night I waited up for the moon to set, and got to do a little
nebula hunting...found M13(?) in Hercules.  There are a bunch down
low in the south I want to find, but we've got trees to the south.

The funny thing is, I was going to ask my neighbor across the way to
turn off her 6 zillion gigawatt porch light, which normally competes
with the full moon for brightest object...but she turned it off all
by herself!  It's been on for 4 months straight...oh well, maybe all
those nasty vibes I've been shooting it burnt out the filament. :-)

Dan

Is this just your family, or is it more of an organized thing for
all families?   M13 is right, but it's a globular cluster.  An
interesting planetary nebula to check out in summer is the Ring Nebula
in Libra (M57).  Libra is to the west of Cygnus, with Vega in Libra, Deneb
in Cygnus, and Altair in Aquila forming the Summer Triangle, some of the
brighter stars in the summer sky.  Vega is the bright star in the sketchy 
diagram below, with X being bright, and * being not so bright...


                            X





                             *
                          o
                       *


The 'o' is the approximate location of the Ring Nebula, which is not
visible to the naked eye, but the other two definitely are.

Another sight to check out is the double star Albireo, at the head, or 
tail, depending on your view, in Cygnus.  If your familiar with 'The 
Swan' (ie Cygnus) then you'll find Deneb on one end of the cross,
and Albireo at the other end.  It's an easy double star (ie easy to
see both stars in the telescope) with an amazing color contrast.
One star is reddish, and the other blueish, and it really goes to 
show folks the difference in star colors.

Sounds like fun...

PeterT

> Is this just your family, or is it more of an organized thing for
> all families?

Hi Peter...this is open to all families...my family just happens to
be organizing it.

> M13 is right, but it's a globular cluster.

Oh...wow.  It was a pretty fuzzy cotton-ball of light, I guess
I assumed it was a nebula.

Thanks for the other viewing tips!

Dan

I think this stuff is so cool.  I just wish I knew what the hell you were
talking about.

;-)

    Me, too.  It's all just dots-in-the-sky, to me.  Look in the 'scope,
    see bigger tiny dots.  What's the buzz?

>   Look in the 'scope, see bigger tiny dots.  What's the buzz?

If stars were the only thing visible in the night sky, it might not
be so interesting, as you've got a point...magnify a tiny dot of
light, and you've got a larger tiny dot of light.  But there are so
many other things to see.  The other planets of our own solar system
have been observed for millenia, and helped us (as a species) figure
out our calendars, and various laws of physics, and that we're *not*
the center of the universe (a concept some individuals still haven't
figured out).  The Milky Way is pretty cool via the naked eye...that's
the rest of our own galaxy...we're out on the edge, and looking through
the middle.  Then there are other galaxies, and dust clouds, stellar
clusters (clumps of stars), and various other oddball collections of
light.  Comets show up every so often, hunks of ice and rock from the
edge of our solar system, swinging around the sun and reflecting
light...most of them are discovered by amateurs, using big hairy
binoculars.  Or you can just connect the dots and draw pictures in
the sky...that spawned the whole astrology business.  :-)

It's fun...and humbling.

Dan

    Actually, if you see larger dots in a telescope, your scope isn't
    focusing too well!  They shouldn't be 'bigger', just brighter.
    And you'll see a lot more of them.  A lot depends on the optics
    (lenses and mirrors) you use.  Witness the Hubble telescope, 
    with it's wrongly ground mirror.  the problems stemmed from
    a piece of test equipment, with a lens that was either a 
    millimeter or two out of place, or in backwards, I forget 
    which.  Corrected now with optics that cancel out the mirror's
    problems.  The same error on an amateur's mirror would still
    be more than acceptable.
    
    As for the buzz, for me it started long ago just staring up at
    the sky, wondering what those bright dots were (and they got 
    pretty fuzzy after a while, also eventually corrected with
    optics ;-)  Seeing meteors while lying in the back of
    the station wagon, coming home from relatives.  Learning
    the constellations during summer camp, which I realize now
    I always went to in August, just the right time for the
    Perseid meteor shower (coming up soon!)  And the wonder of 
    realizing that the earth is really just another one of 
    those bright dots up there, not even visible from the 
    nearest star. Which makes you wonder what we can't see...
    And realizing just what stars really are, huge fusion reactors
    started by gravity, slamming hydrogen into helium in the biggest
    goddamn fireworks you're ever going to see.  It's all fireworks.
    I've got images of hundreds of meteors in my mind, comets 
    stretching out and just hanging there like they should be
    making some sound, nebulas like frozen clouds, or after
    images of shockwaves (which some are).  It's all more strange
    and wonderful the more you find out about it. 
    
    It's also understandable how people can find observational 
    astronomy kind of boring.  All these great images you see in
    the paper, or magazines or text books are usually time
    exposures taken over minutes or hours onto film or ccd's 
    (charged coupled devices - essentially pixel size sensors
    that can register separate photon hits, laid out in a grid,
    and you can store the output to build up an image over time).
    The picutures have great detail and color and when you look
    into a telescope, the best you can usually see is this 
    fuzzy little patch, sometimes with a hint of the structure
    you can see in a photo.  So they take a look and go, eh, 
    big deal.  But show them the moon, or Saturn, or Jupiter
    with its moons. and then you can usually get some ooo's and 
    aaahh's.  With the less attactive stuff it takes some
    patience and persistance but it eventually becomes easier to pick out
    detail and see objects that you hadn't noticed before.  
    
    But in the final analysis, its whatever turns you on, 
    and for me, all this stuff is a big trip.
    
    Oh, Dan, I forgot to mention before.  Do you know whereabouts
    to find Andromeda?  If you got a clear sky to the east, you might be
    able to pick it out before it gets too late.
    
    PeterT

Star gazing is Cool, and something I don't do enuff of with my little Tasco
60X 'scope, but it's fun to look at the Moon and planets...

Wes_who_wanted_to_be_an_astronaut_before__I_wanted_to_be_a_rock_star_who_now_
counts_beans_and_plays_weekend_gigs  :)))

    huh?
    
    Patty saw a long, slow shooting star right after we exited Fiddlers
    Furthur....that's about the extent of our stargazing, other than
     the Milkyway is pretty cool at 10,000 feet. 
    
    rfb

    I'd like to see it all from space.

    Tw

>   Oh, Dan, I forgot to mention before.  Do you know whereabouts
>   to find Andromeda?  If you got a clear sky to the east, you might be
>   able to pick it out before it gets too late.

The house itself is to the east, but I can get a reasonable view that
way if I move down the lawn (towards the mosquitoes).

If the viewing isn't good tonight, Monday is the Cloud Date.

Dan

> If the viewing isn't good tonight, Monday is the Cloud Date.

If you ever want to influence the weather, just schedule an event
which depends upon it...as many picnicers have discovered over the
years.  We're trying to figure out how to get this done now...first
cloudless Thursday night, or something like that.

Dan

> If you ever want to influence the weather, just schedule an event
> which depends upon it..

Been there, been rained upon... ;-)

PeterT

Went out last night, which was clear but a wee bit hazy...and I thought
I might have seen some Northern Lights action, light bars sort of
shooting up from the Big Dipper towards the Little Dipper.  It was
mostly visible in my peripheral vision, and wasn't steady.  I'm not
convinced that it wasn't unrelated to the cheap red wine I'd been
drinking... :-)

Saw a couple of good fireballs too, though they both came from the
southeast towards the northwest, which would not be the right angle
for Perseid meteors, would it?  Perseus rises late, in the northeast,
as I recall.

Dan

I hung outside for about an hour last night, a little after 11 till 
about 12:15.  Interrupted with some bouts of Hannah barfing.  Sigh...
Conditions mostly as you reports, somewhat hazy, a few clouds, and
intermittent barfing... (she's ok, just another bug picked up at
daycare, belikes.)  Saw only one meteor, which I think was a Perseid.
If the ones you saw were really coming from southeast to northwest,
then likely not a Perseid, but you have to remember the radiant
shifts as the sky revolves, and so the path the meteors follow
tracks with it, so that a meteor seen in the same general direction
and spot at different times of the night might not necesarrily be
from the same shower.  If you follow that.

I also saw some, ah, changes in light, that might be similar
to what you think you saw of the Northern Lights.  But I often
see similar things when I'm out viewing, and without any longer
lasting, verifiable events, I'm just sticking with the conclusion
that I'm hallucinating again.  One of these days....


PeterT

    
    Saw a couple good meteors last night as well.  In the northwest and
    they almost appeared to be falling downward.   Is there some sort of
    meteor shower ocurring now?

    perseoid showers....

    
    Oh!
    
    I tell ya, hangin out in the Pemi G. wilderness last Friday
    night, I almost felt as if I were in outer space.  Outside
    of Boston we live under a cover of silt.

Sighhh...with August comes KAren's and my anniversary, and if it's August, I 
feel like we should be at LAke Tahoe...talk about stars...I've never seen stars
like I did in Carson City, NEV....desert skies at 4,400 feet, those suckers
jump out atcha...

Wes_missing_the_west

Yep, the Perseids.  Every year in August, peaking on the 11th.  (And you 
could be too! ;-)

The city is great for visiting, but if you want to see the stars,
live in the country.

PeterT

    This is IT, the most significant discovery in the history of humankind. 
    Nothing will ever be the same.
    
    Jamie
    
    
    Mars meteorite may hold evidence of microscopic life

    By David L. Chandler, Globe Staff, 08/07/96

    A meteorite has yielded evidence that living organisms may once have
    existed on Mars, NASA scientists reported yesterday. The stunning
    discovery, while not conclusive, provides the first direct sign that
    life on Earth may not be unique in the universe.

    The finding comes from a meteorite found in Antarctica and proved to
    have come to Earth from Mars. Inside tiny cracks in this Martian rock,
    the scientists said, they found what appear to be fossils of ancient
    microbial life.

    The fossils resemble those found in ancient rocks on Earth, believed to
    have formed soon after life began here. The microbe-like shapes
    apparently formed on Mars at about the same time - about 3.5 billion
    years ago.

    Organic chemicals found in the Mars meteorite support the claim that
    the tiny pancake-shaped formations are indeed the remains of ancient
    living cells, the scientists said. The research is described in a paper
    to be published next week in the journal Science and reported yesterday
    by NASA

    ``NASA has made a startling discovery that points to the possibility
    that a primitive form of microscopic life may have existed on Mars more
    than three billion years ago,'' said Daniel Goldin, head of the
    National Aeronautics and Space Administration in a statement yesterday.
    ``The evidence is exciting, even compelling, but not conclusive. It is
    a discovery that demands further scientific investigation.''

    NASA will hold a press conference this afternoon to present the
    evidence.

    In the Science paper, an advance copy of which was provided to the
    Globe, the authors conclude that five separate lines of chemical and
    microscopic evidence they present make a compelling case for life.
    While each of the individual lines of evidence, taken in isolation,
    could conceivably be the result of some non-biological process, they
    said, ``when considered collectively ... we conclude that they are
    evidence for primitive life on early Mars.''

    Richard Zare, a scientist at Stanford University and one of the
    co-authors of the Science paper, said in an interview yesterday that
    ``if it's true, it answers the question that I've wondered all along:
    Are we alone? Is life unique to Earth?''

    Zare said the team of scientists has been working on the analysis of
    the Antarctic meteorite - one of 12 now confirmed by scientists as
    having been blasted to Earth from Mars by a huge meteorite impact - for
    about two years, going through every test they could think of to try to
    rule out any possible alternative explanation. The lead authors were
    David McKay and Everett Gilson of NASA's Johnson Space Center in
    Houston.

    ``I don't want to look like a fool'' by announcing such an epochal
    finding without sufficient evidence, Zare said. But the evidence was so
    strong that ``it makes you bold enough'' to make the claim that the
    evidence points to life on Mars.

    The turning point for him, Zare said, was when the team obtained images
    of the apparent microfossils with a scanning electron microscope, which
    showed structures inside the microbe-like formations that are similar
    to those seen in living microbes and in microfossils of ancient life on
    Earth.

    ``It's not subtle,'' he said of the resemblance to known forms of
    microscopic life.

    Philip Morrison, a physicist at the Massachusetts Institute of
    Technology who was one of the first scientists to propose ways of
    searching for extraterrestrial life, said yesterday that if the
    findings really do show that life existed on Mars, we cannot
    necessarily be sure that it originated independently. Just as
    meteorites have now been shown to have traveled from Mars to Earth, he
    said, others may have traveled the opposite way, perhaps ``seeding''
    Mars with terrestrial life.

    At the least, he said, the findings lend strong support to the theory
    that Mars, although cold and dry today, was once warm and had abundant
    water, thus providing the kind of environment in which life is thought
    to have originated on Earth. The claim that the evidence points to the
    existence of primitive life in the past on Mars is ``plausible,'' he
    said, but he had not yet seen the actual data.

    NASA had planned to release the information next week, but a brief item
    published this week in Space News, a trade publication, revealed the
    basic information and caused the agency to issue a press release
    yesterday.

    Galdin, in his prepared statement, added that ``I want everyone to
    understand that we are not talking about `little green men.' These are
    extremely small, single-cell structures that somewhat resemble bacteria
    on Earth. There is no evidence or suggestion that any higher life form
    ever existed on Mars.''

    This story ran on page a1 of the Boston Globe on 08/07/96.

>   This is IT, the most significant discovery in the history of humankind. 
>   Nothing will ever be the same.
    
Well, Jamie, you're in good company with this statement, as the BBC
World Service said just about the same thing this morning.  But I have
to disagree...between having figured out that we are not (literally)
the center of the universe, and the biological discoveries of this
past century about the basic building blocks of life, I think this
sort of discovery was just a matter of time.  That it happened to
come off a meteorite was a nice budget-saving measure for NASA, but
we would have found something somewhere eventually.

Dan

    re -.1   i would have to agree with that one...  "things" are always the
    same...   it is us, and the way we percieve them that's different...
    :^)  :^)  :^)
    
    					da ve

    
    That is so excellent! Incredible!  Mind blowing!
    
    

    I think this discovery was inevitable also.  Most people have assumed
    that life existed elsewhere in the universe, but until now we've had no
    proof.  Other scientific discoveries have dramatically changed the way
    we live, but I can't think of any other, save the equally inevitable
    first contact, that so philisophically changes the way we perceive
    ourselves.
    
    I think that this discovery, along with the discovery of other planets,
    coupled with the coming turn of the millenial clock will spur a new era
    of introspection into who we are and why we're here (Stockdale wuz
    right :-).  This will be expressed through the arts and greater
    interest in space exploration.
    
    In short I predict a new Golden Age, where we'll all wear robes and
    drink beer from public fountains while philosophizing.  Hmm, maybe that
    wasn't a multi-vitamin I took this morning.  :-)
    
    Jamie

>    In short I predict a new Golden Age, where we'll all wear robes and
>    drink beer from public fountains while philosophizing.  
    
hmm, sounds like a Show!

> (Stockdale wuz right :-).  

Perot's VP candidate???

Dan (who must be confused)

    re .311
    
    His statement from the debate: "Who am I?  Why am I here?"  He never
    offered an answer.
    
    Jamie

    
    Cool!  I always liked Stockdale.  Cool old fart.

I (obviously :-) see this new discovery as the long-awaited answer to the 
question that Bob Dylan posed in "Ballad of a Thin Man" :

	"Oh my God, am I here all alone?"


 - Josh

>   His statement from the debate: "Who am I?  Why am I here?"  He never
>   offered an answer.

Ah, yes.  While the role of philosopher-king has a long and storied
history, the position of philosopher-veep never quite caught on...

Dan

Saw some cool showers this weekend at Riverfest...(folks, yer missing out on a
grate band if ya don't check out Acoustic Junction, Imho of course)...after
AJ did their set, and the post-concert campfire, jam along sing along faded as
well, we did some star-gazing...a crisp night in Clarksburg, MA. and the stars
were just beamin...as we were too...Milky Way was just great...we didn't see
a large quantity of showers, but the ones we saw were bright, and had long
tails to 'em...cool stuff at 2-3am

Rage in the stars

    hmmmm....i was outside both Sunday AM and this morning am at around 3..
    only saw a couple of shooters, and they were short-lived and not all
    that bright at 10,000 feet.
    
    rfb

    I saw probably about 10 or so for the entire weekend. 2 or 3 
    Thursday night, downpour on Friday night (of the rain, rather
    than meteor variety) and then about 6 or 7 Saturday night.
    Some real nice ones that left some trails, and one that came from
    behind the trees overhead, and looked like it was going to 
    cross the whole sky before disappearing behind some clouds.
    
    Last night was fairly overcast, but you could see the brightest
    stars peeking through the cover, so I thought I'd hang out and
    see if I could catch some bright ones through the haze.  Had a 
    couple of hints through trees and out of the corner of my eyes,
    but nothing I could really say was a meteor.  But then I caught
    something that must have been a meteor of some sort.  But I 
    couldn't tell what direction it was going in, as it was the 
    shortest trail I've seen on one.  Just enough to tell it wasn't 
    just a point, and kind of nice and golden colored.  Maybe I caught
    the tail end or just a glimpse through a break in the clouds.
    But that was it for the night.
    
    
    So, a dozen or so meteors, some bright enough to go into permanent 
    storage, a general lack of sleep, and a pulled muscle or something
    from lying out at an odd angle on my picnic table.  Also a resolution
    that my next house is going to have a good hill with better views of 
    the horizon.  Very frustrating to think that maybe that glimpse
    of something might have been a bright meteor going down through the
    trees.  Sunday morning I told Amy, "I think I'm going to cut down
    some trees today!"  She almost freaked before I mentioned I
    was joking.  (But I know exactly which trees I would trim, mind you!)
    
    PeterT
    

    
    Peter, you should head to the Whites for your viewing.  I wasn't in the
    Whites this weekend but I was in Burlington VT and the skies were on
    fire!

So make up your mind, Deano!  Should I have been in the Whites or in
Burlington, VT?  Geez, you can never get consistent info from some
of these people!

;-)


Oh, and good news on you Mom.  Hope it stays that way!

PeterT

    
    re - peter
    
    Anyplace above 43 degrees latitude should be suffice.

	Sunday morning around 01:00 the wind shifted and built. By 02:30 I
turned on our deck light, collected the makings of a bridle and went out to
make sure our anchor was secure. Turns out it stopped being that way at
about the time I stepped outside. How fortunate I was to have been outside
and ready when this occurred. We met one of the neighboring crew who
offered us a raft-up so we could otherwise collect our anchor and get ready
to go set it again. Since we were there and fending off it seemed a
convenient place to do such a thing. I noticed a couple of meteors moving
roughly southwest. 
 	After we were back on our hook and secure we wached another half
cozen or so boats do what we had but more of them finding out with a bang
rather than a yell. As the anchors were reset and the action calmed down I
stayed up to keep watch until the wind calmed down some. 
	I saw uncounted, but abundant meteors shooting from roughly over
head toward the horizon behind us. The wind held us at about 20 degrees
magnetic which means the meteors trajectories were roughly 200 to 210
degrees magnetic. After all the anchors that draggged I was up until after
sunrise and that was another fun event to watch. 
	The sky over Cuttyhunk was clear and the only lights to cause any
light polution were anchor lights (the moving ones being the danger).
Beautiful sky, but it made me realise how many constellations I can't
identify. 

	Incidentally, The GPS gives the sunrise time when the sun shows
it's first glimmer over the horizon. The full sun was in view about 8
minutes later. 

	There's no need to be north of 43
	Geoff

  Everyone hear about planet Garcia...?
  
  Minor planet number 4442, discovered 9/14/85 by Spacewatch at Kitt Peak,
  has been named in memory of Jerry Garcia.
  
  As someone quipped in the gdead newsgroup...

    Finally got a chance to see comet Hale-Bopp this morning (2/25).  
    This sucker is BRIGHT!  The moon was just past full, and I think 
    it was washing out the small tail the comet has, but there's no
    way it's going to wash out the head of this one.  If you know
    your constellations, it's just below the trailing wingtip of
    Cygnus, on a path that takes it south of Deneb.  If you don't 
    know your stars, wellll, its that bright fuzzy spot about a 
    1/4 - 1/3 way up the sky in the northeast about an hour and 
    a half before sunrise.  Yeah, that's the one catch, this one
    is strictly a morning phenomenon for the next few weeks, though it 
    will cross into the evening sky sometime mid to late March.  
    Oh yeah, you'll have to find the northeast all by yourself ;-)
    
    As comets go, this one is probably the biggest ever seen, but it
    may not be the most spectacular looking.  It's all a question of
    how close the earth is to it, and the angle of the earth, sun
    and comet.  If it passes close by on it's way towards or away from the
    sun, then we see this great comet with a long streaming tail.
    Hyakutake was like that last year about this time, passing 
    over the earth's orbit on it's way toward the sun, and only
    about 22 million miles away.  Hale-Bopp, while a bigger and
    already brighter comet, seems to have a shorter, more diffuse
    tail.  It will never get much closer than about 100 million miles
    from earth, and the tail is probably pointing more away
    from us than towards or past us.  I've got a picture of
    the planes of the comet and earths orbits on my internal web
    page,   www.zk3.dec.com/~petert, if you want to get a feel for
    how that works.  
    
    Even so, it looks like a winner, and I'll probably be dragging
    out the scope and trying to take pictures some god-forsakenly
    cold morning.  So if you should happen to be up real early
    (or real late, for that matter) see if you can find the northeast
    and check it out.  Binoculars give a real pretty view.
    
    This is actually about the 4th or 5th time I've seen this one.
    The first was in August of '95, during my trip down under, 
    not to long after it was first discovered.  Got to spot this
    faint fuzzy spot through a 20 inch scope in Darby Falls, NSW.
    And I saw it a few months ago, on a pair of nights through
    the binoculars.  Now that it's near it's closest 
    approach to both earth, and the sun, I'll be checking it
    out a bit more closely.
    
    Clear skies,
    PeterT
    

Got another nice view of Hale-Bopp this morning.  It's rare for me to 
sleep straight through the night, though it's easy to just turn over and
resume the slumber.  But lately I've been eying the clock when I wake
up (a chore in itself without my glasses and it over on Amy's side
of the bed) and if it's around 5 or so, I'll stumble out of the
bed and eye the sky through the window.  Ever since my last report I've
just grumbled, "cloudy" and headed back to bed.  This morn it was, "stars!"

So, I pulled on my sweats, conveniently at hand, pulled on some socks,
located my long sleeve, "Fare Thee Well..." Jerry shirt from rfb and Patty
in the closet, and snuck outside.  20 degrees, not too bad.  I could see
H-B shining through the trees, so I went down to the lawn for an 
unobstructed view.  The best spot in my yard is over by the raspberry 
patch, from which I could just see the comet topping the trees in the
northeast.  I'll have to set my tripod up there soon, so it's ready for
the scope some morning.  Nice sight through the binoculars, but I have
just a little trouble focusing them.  Better binocs would be nice, but
you make do with what you have.  The wild winds of last night were
gone, Bootes and Hercules were overhead, and off in the distance you 
could hear the owls calling to each other.  I tried a few hoots myself,
to see if I could call one over, but I guess I don't sound too owl-like
just yet.  Need to work on that.  Saw one meteor over by the little dipper,
and got a good impression of the split tail in the comet itself (the gas
and the dust tails get pushed in slightly different directions.)
Next time, telescope and try to get some pictures!  Went back in after 
a half-hour or so.  Managed to fall back asleep after a while, quite
satisfied.

PeterT

	cool petert - thanks for letting us know about this regularly -
	don't know if I'm ever going to see it pre-dawn - but be sure
	to let us know when it's seeable at night!!!

    I've seen a number of people mention it's already visible in the
    evening sky just after sunset, over in the north west.  But I 
    haven't been able to see through the clouds yet to confirm this ;-)
    And there are a lot of trees over that way from my house.  Next
    house, a big field, and an observatory with a good horizon.
    (The way I work, should only take about 10 years to get it together)
    
    PeterT

so where would one look, in the evening - the same direction?

    hey PeterT,
    
    do you ever set your 'scope up to acclimate it to the weather
    but keep your mirror out until viewing?  My cousin-in-law does
    this with his 13" (no comments please 8))  says it helps with
    the viewing but I forget why. I live too close to Nortons in Worc
    plenty-o-light-pollution to get a real good look at the stars 8-(
    I can always tell when spring is close when I see Arcturus in the sky
    
    
    Toby

Look low on the horizon in the northwest.  If you face the direction
the sun goes down, look to your right.  Depending on the conditions
of the sky, if you face in the right general direction, it should be
fairly easy to spot.  It's the funny looking star, and as bright or
brighter than most of the stars up now.  I could tell you it's traveling
a little above Cygnus, heading towards Andromeda, but that might not help
you much.  The URL for Hale-Bopp is

http://galileo.ivv.nasa.gov/comet/

There are some viewing tips there, but the one I thought most likely 
to give you an idea of where to look was offline.  Sigh...

PeterT

oh, and you'd sort of rotate eastward about 90 degrees to find it in the
morning sky.  It was overhead about noon time, but that's not much help...

Toby,
   re: setting up the scope to acclimate it. 

Yeah, that's the general recommended way of doing it.  I don't worry about
it too much myself unless I'm going to spend a lot of time viewing, 
and I haven't really done that much since Dan was born.  The reason you 
do it is because you want the mirror, made of glass, to adjust to the 
temperature of the outside air.  As the glass cools, it shrinks, and it
affects the viewing since the surface of the glass is changing until
it stabalizes in temperature.  A 13" is a lot of glass, about 132 square inches
compared to the 50 square inches of my 8" so, it would take longer to 
cool down than mine would.  Since you seem to know some of the stars, I
can tell you to look for Deneb (which is the name of my workstation ;-) and
look down and to the northwest for Hale-Bopp.  Even in Worcester, if you can
see any stars you should be able to see H-B.

PeterT

Got up about 5AM Sunday and dragged the scope over by the raspberry patch.
I'd already snaked an extension cord out the garage window, and had the 
scope out and nicely acclimated before I crawled into bed about 1AM.
I wanted to set up my camera piggyback on top of the scope and try
a few photos.  Did manage that, but I'm not convinced it will look
like all that much through that lens (70 - 210 zoom).  Hyakutake came
out pretty nice, but it looked a lot bigger overall.  I managed to 
take 3 or 4 long shots, but the eastern horizon was starting to glow
a nice soft blue before I finished up.  Damn, needed to get out a half-hour
or more earlier.  Real nice images through the finder scope and
the telescope itself.  It almost appeared that only one side was 
out-gassing/boiling off, so that one side had a nice graceful arch,
and the other seemed to run straight back from the head of the comet.
It's possible that was exactly what was happening, but I'd venture
to guess that the sunward facing side was so vast, that it was 
throwing the other half into a sharp shadow.  Looked pretty cool,
regardless.

Oh, and on the way home Friday, I checked out H-B in the evening sky,
pulling off the road at one place I knew had a fairly decent horizon
in the right direction.  I did place it, but it was very close
to the horizon, much lower than I had been led to believe, so
unless you have a long field, or lake front, it might be hard to 
pick up.

PeterT

Looks like my morning excursions might be ending soon.  Got up a little after
4AM this morning.  Had a few wierd dreams that I was getting up, and that
it was too late, or I was visiting somebody elses house, but eventually woke
up in my own bed, and my own mind, and headed out.  Forgot to check the temp.
Probably in the teens though.  No significant wind, though, and I had a few
layers on.  Odd getting dressed in the dark at that time of day.  Turning on
lights just destroys your night vision, so you want to avoid that.  The scope
was already outside awaiting me, so I just dumped lenses and other equipment
in my pockets and headed out with the camera.  Hale-Bopp, giving a nice glow,
was still behind trees from my porch.  Headed over to where the scope was
set up and cursed.  The comet has moved further towards the North Star, but is 
heading south of it.  So if you take Polaris to be at the upper left of this note,
and H-B started in the upper right hand corner of the note, H-B has now gone over
to                        HERE.
Which, unfortunately, is behind the house from where the scope was.  Sigh...
Walking around, a found a little better spot and walked the scope from the
raspberry batch over towards the compost bin.  Much better than that will 
require going into the woods.  

It was cold, but I was comfortable, and somehow, it doesn't matter that much
when you're checking out a once in a lifetime sight.  Other comets will
come and go, but Hale-Bopp's not going to show up again for another 4000 years
or so.  The light snow covering was nice and crunchy, and I feel like I'm 
making a big racket walking over it.  But no one is up to hear me.  Well,
almost.  Seems someone is delivering papers to the neighbors about 4:15AM.
Odd that.  The thing with looking through a scope is you want to try to
keep it trained on the object you are looking at as long as possible.  
A clock drive turns the scope with the earths motion, so it would make a 
complete circle once a day.  But to have it perfect, you want to have it aimed
at the right spot in the sky, just a degree or 2 off the north star.  It's not
too hard to do, but to get it perfect takes a bit of time, and hey, I'm freezing
out here and I've only got an hour or so before the sky lights up, so I just
point it in the general direction of the north star and hope for the best.

And I didn't do too bad.  I set up the camera piggy back at first, after taking
some nice looks through the scope.  Then took a number of pictures,  some just 
letting the scope go, and then a few trying to correct if I could see the 
stars around the comet start drifting off.  Then I tried something I've been
meaning to for years, but always wanted the right equipment to do it correctly.
I've got a connector so I can attach the camera right to the back of the scope,
in essence using the scope as a big lens.  To do this right you need an 
off-axis guider, which sticks a little prism into the light path of the 
scope, so you can focus on a star with that a little off to the side of the
thing you want, and then correct the tracking if that starts to drift while
you're taking the photo through the scope.  Someday.  But this morning I just
took about 3 or 4 shots from about 5-10 seconds, up to about a minute.
Something will come out, be it drifting or not.

Only a few owls off in the distance.  With the sky lightening, I 'broke camp'
and headed inside for another hour or so of more wierd dreams before 
having to get up for the rest of the day.

Later,
PeterT

    4000 years! yikes!! i better check this out, as I don't think I'll make it
    for the next time around....
    
    how can you go back to sleep after doing all this!?!?
    
    

>     how can you go back to sleep after doing all this!?!?


Years of sleep deprivation means I never usually have a problem falling
asleep.  Staying awake when I need to, now THAT can be a prob. jlkgllllll

oops, sorry, what was I saying?

This monings view just consisted of sticking my head out the bedroom
porch door "Looks real nice!" and then pulling my head back in.
And then I had to go turn off Dan's light and find out where Amy
had went to.  Turned out Dan had a nightmare around 2, and she hadn't
been able to get back to sleep.  And still wasn't ready at 5AM.
She envies me my ability to fall back to bed after getting up in 
the night.

And poor Dan was probably up for a while too.  He dreamt that a 
"Daddy sized candy bar, with arms and legs!" was chasing the whole
family around.  I think it might have been a Reese's peanut butter
cup, but that hasn't been confirmed ;-)  

PeterT

Oh yeah, on the way home last night, with a crescent moon in the
not fully dark sky, I was able to spot Hale-Bopp from a supermarket
parking lot.  If you can see any stars after sunset, you should be 
able to see H-B.  It was dimmer than I see in the morning of
course, but it was definitely not hard to find.  The tail seemed
sort of parallel to the horizon, a couple of hand-widths off
the horizon, about a 1/4 or a 1/3 turn to the right of sunset.

Put the binoculars in the car to carry around if I get a chance tonight.
Tomorrow more rain/snow/sleet/ice.  Winter finally remembered it 
was supposed to be here.

PeterT

    re: daddy sized candy bar...
    
    man, some wierd effects from that comet, eh?   %^)
    
    rfb-runnin on about 4 hours of sleep today, but not for
    long....zzzzzzzz

Here's what's really weird about the comet.  When I finally got the 
scope out to look at it this past weekend, I saw it first through
the spotting scope.  Better focus than my binoculars, and looked
pretty cool.  Then I looked at it through the main scope.  And it
looks like there are bright concentric arcs off on one side of the
comets head.  I'm thinking, this has to be some sort of artifact
of my telescope, maybe I need to align the mirrors a little better.
Noticed the same thing yesterday morning, so I wrote up in the Astronomy
notes "anybody have any idea what's wrong with my scope?"  
Somebody came back and reported that those rings are real!
He's seen them, and seen other reports about this.  I've seen other
comets through the scope, and most of them are just kind of diffuse 
clouds.  This one is very bright and condensed.  And it's got rings!

Weird....


PeterT

	being reminded of the BestofJerry party last year this time - 
	I seem to recall that a few of us went outside and were laying
	on the ground (in the shadow of a car to get away from the 
	houselights!) and I think we were doing that to view a comet
	(Hyakutake?) - could that have been?

	Debess

Yeah, Hyakutake was high in the sky at just about this time last year.
March has been pretty good for comets these last two years...

PeterT

    Awesome photo of Hale-Bopp at
    
    http://galileo.ivv.nasa.gov/comet/
    
    You can click on the featured photo to get more info and 
    a larger size.
    
    PeterT
    

	I Saw It!!!!

	Last night I was driving with a friend and he pointed it out
	to me - at first I thought no, that can't be it, it's too high
	in the sky (from what PeterT was saying, I expected it to be
	right above the horizon) - but it was definately a comet - just
	what you would expect it to look like.

	I'd say it was around 7ish, before other stars were visible yet,
	it seemed like it was between a quarter and  halfway up the sky - 
	streaking across with a huge tail.  It did look a little fuzzy to 
	the naked eye.

	I guess in a couple of weeks, when the moon rises later?, that
	it should be the peak time to observe it.

	But, I'm really thrilled that I got to see it already!  I'm
	going to be looking for it every night now...

	Debess

    ME TOO!!! sorta cool, although fuzzy.....just the fact that I;ll never
    see it again is awesome. 
    
    rfb

Debess, it's been getting higher in the evening sky every night, so when 
I wrote about it being fairly low, that was over a week ago.  It is getting
better for the evening sky but it's still dicking with my trees.  
I took the kids over to a field near our house on Saturday, and pointed
it out to them.  Hannah's having her first sleep over party Friday night,
and I thought it might be cool to show everyone the comet, and maybe 
get a group photo with the comet over everyone's head, but I'm not
sure I'll find a place in my yard good enough for that.  I figure it would
take about 30 seconds to get a decent image of the comet, and the moon
should be out, so that should make the kids stand out, and if they
move, well, that should be a cool effect too ;-)  But the party's not
starting till 7:30, so it might be too low by then.  Maybe it will be 
cloudy, and I won't have to worry about it.  Of course, I could wake 
everyone up at 4:30 in the morning and see if they want to take a 
look then, but I'm sure my wife would throw me out of the house afterwards ;-)

Got a bit of a view of it last night through hazy skies.  Hoping for 
better tonight.  Went out for about a 1/2 hour or so Monday morning,
but hadn't set up the scope or brought out the camera.  I tried looking
at it with the camcorder, but couldn't see anything through the finder.
I might not have put it at the best setting though.  Might be interesting
to try the camcorder looking down the eyepiece of the scope.  CCD's are 
pretty big in astronomy these days, but I tend to prefer the image on
a piece of film.

And tonight's book, Comets!  Hannah picked it up from the school library,
and it was written in 1957.  She want's to know why Hale-Bopp isn't in
it ;-)

PeterT

    
          Dark Star crashes,
          pouring it's light into ashes.
          Reason tatters,
          the forces tear loose from their axis. 
          Searchlight casting
          for faults in the clouds of delusion.
          Shall we go,
          you and I while we can
          through the transitive nightfall of diamonds?
    
    
    Went out last nite at 7 to see Hale-Bopp (does anyone else head VInce
    singing "Not Fade Away Bop, bop, bop bop bop"???) an a big cloud was
    obscuring the comet. The rest of the sky was clear, but right where
    Hale-Bopp was supposed to be, where i saw it the previous nite, was
    this cloud. "Hmmm, a "dark star" comet tonite" I thought...so I
    naturally got dark star stuck in my head for several hours (happens
    alot, actually) Then started thinking about this sci-fi movie I have
    seen several times (but can't remember the name of, DOH!) where a comet
    is approaching earth and in the tail of this comet is a spacecship that
    has LONG since lost any means of control, it's just being pulled along
    with the comet. Anyway, aboard this ship is a race from which our
    vampire stories have sprung....this race, represented by a beautiful
    naked girl of course, suck the "life force"..wait!!! That's the name of
    the movie LIFE FORCE, right outa human beings turning them into corpes
    that reawaken after a day and start feeding off of humans just like the
    chick did....anyway...any one else see the coralation between this
    movie, Hale Bopp (bop bop, bop bop bop) and the fact that prime viewing
    of this Hale-Bopp IS APRIL FOOLS DAY!!!! I'm tellin ya, somethin is
    fishy here....I don't know about ya'll but I'm gonna be real careful
    who I kiss on April Fools day...no beautiful, naked, stranger women
    for me, no sir...not for this boy!!!!!
    
    
    bop, bop, bop bop bop.....

Barnes, you've been watching too many bad movies, drinking too much beer
and smoking too much dope!  But then, that's why we like you ;-)

What you have experienced, the cloud in front of the comet, is a 
common astronomer's problem.  In fact the typical happened to me
too last night.  Picked up Hannah from Hebrew school, and got 
home around 6:30.  The first thing I tried to do was find Hale-Bopp.
Finally found it, above that freaking pine tree!  Ya hooo...
Went inside to get my scope, and take a nice view and maybe a 
photo or two.  By the time I get out there... everything is hazed
over and I can't find the sucker.  Even got Amy to come outside to
finally take a look.  (It's been too cold before hand for her.)
But she'll just have to wait.  Left the scope out for a chance
at catching H-B in the morning, but the weather report was predicting
heavier clouds and a possibility of rain/snow showers, so I
pulled in the scope before I headed to bed.  

Actually it's hard to say if 3/22 or 4/1 will be the best night of
the comet.  It's closer to earth on 3/22, but at it's closest approach
to the sun on 4/1.  Hard to say if the extra distance will make much
of a difference.  And we're really not in a favorable position to
see this sucker in it's glory.  If it had been a few months earlier, 
we might have seen a tail stretching across the sky.  But it's pretty
brilliant as is.

I've seen some reports about the last time the comet was around our
way (in Newsweek for one!)  The pyramids were almost brand new.
Rome and Athens hadn't been built.  The Mayans, Incas and Aztecs were
still in the future.  And the plow was a novelty.

(I've also heard that when next it comes around, the plow may again be
a novelty...)

PeterT

    re;
    Barnes, you've been watching too many bad movies,
    (I dig schlock Sci-fi...my kids groan everytime some 50's sci-fi movie
    comes on and I start jumpin up-n-down yellin, "Lindsey, come watch this
    movie with me it's a good'n!...she did complain about the naked vampire
    though....she's a wimmims-libber and very vocal about it too.)
    
     drinking too much beer
    (you been listenin to my wife and kids lately????)
    
    and smoking too much dope!
    (NOT ME! Never touch the stuff)
    
    
    re;
    What you have experienced, the cloud in front of the comet, is a
    common astronomer's problem.
    
    I'm tellin ya ! it was that ship concealing itself even more! DOn't
    believe me! See what happens on April Fools day, all you fools! Me,...
    I'll probably go fishin...(damn, that's a tuesday!, but at least my
    life-force will remain intact!)   %^)
    
    rfb

re:                     <<< Note 348.357 by SPECXN::BARNES >>>

>    fishy here....I don't know about ya'll but I'm gonna be real careful
>    who I kiss on April Fools day...no beautiful, naked, stranger women
>    for me, no sir...not for this boy!!!!!

Speak for yourself :-)

    don't say I didn't warn ya!...me, I'll stick to kissin a naked woman I
    *KNOW*....
    
    %^)
    
    rfb

    LAst nite was a the second most spectacular nite for me as far as
    seeing Hale-Bopp...not a cloud in the sky at 7:15pm..Hoot had a good
    pair of Bi-nocs and with the help of a few Homebrewed Nut-Brown Ales,
    the conditions were juuuust riiiight. I don't know if it was the beers,
    but watching thru the bi-nocs I had this feeling of movement...now i
    know that sucker is probably traveling at a million miles an hour
    (PeterT??) but I REALLY had this felling of motion watching...and I
    saw that damn space ship in the tail, too!!!!
    
    rfb

A million miles an hour is a tad fast.  I know I've seen an estimate someplace...
Ok, one web page I found list it at about 43 km/sec.  Soooo 
43 x60 x60 = 154,800 km/hr, multiply by .6 for the km->miles (for us English
centric measurment hounds) = 92,800 mph.  Roughly.  Of course, I needn't
tell you that this thing speeds up as it gets closer to the sun, and
then slows down as it draws away.  Simple orbital mechanics...  ;-)

But with this huge jet streaming out it's butt, it should look like
it's moving.  And if you watch it over an hour or so, it should change ever
so slightly against the background stars.

Randy, you're in a good location for this.  On the night of the 23-24th
there going to be a 92% eclipse of the moon.  And Mars will be just 
above and to the right of it, and it should dim things enough for 
a good view of the comet.  With my luck it will be snowing here...

Got out this morning about 4AM.  I'd taken the scope out before bed and now it
was covered in frost!  Ahhhhh!  Luckily I had covered the eyepiece,
and though I'd forgotten about the front of the scope, it had been
pointing downwards and was spared.  But then I had to lug it
into the road, as that was the only place with a good enough view, down
through an aisle of pines and leafless oaks and maples...  Had to 
wait for the guy delivering the paper, as I didn't want him to
run me over.  He showed up around 4:30.  Which left me only about 
a half hour to set things up and try a few photo's before the sky 
started to brighten up.  

Now I've had about 4 hours of sleep (didn't quite fall back asleep immediately,
but definitely nodded off somewhere before I REALLY had to get up.)
And we've got the sleepover party tonight.  I'm going to hide in the 
basement.

Hopefully I'll survive...

PeterT

    re; eclipse of the moon...
    
    COOL!!!!

Todd Gross, a local weatherman, said that the earth is pretty far from this 
comet.  However, if the earth was near to where the comet came closest 
to the sun, then the comet would be brighter than a full moon and would likely 
be, far and away, the brightest comet ever recorded by man.

Jim

    
    Saw the comet last night.....between that and the lunar eclipse, 'twas
    a pretty cosmic night last evening.  What a sight that comet was!!
    
    Hogan

    what time is the best for viewing with a naked eye?
    
    is that doable?

    
    You can view it totally naked and see it clearly.  I was out at 7:30
    last night (well clothed), and though I had binoculars, I didn't need
    them to see it.  In fact, I preferred viewing without them.  The comet
    was in the northwest sky.
    
    Hogan

	absolutely - around 7 in the evening just look to the northwest.
	not too many stars out yet - constellations are - but this
	comet just stands right out - you can't miss it - unless there
	are clouds in the sky or trees in the way.

	I saw it again last night too - was driving along and had to
	pull over to the side and get out and really get a chance to
	gaze at it for a good long time.  It is so kewl!

	saw the eclipse too - it was pretty near almost full - just a
	bit of a crescent left before I fell to sleep.

	Debess

    The comet was outstanding, the moon was full, but got covered
    over by clouds, never got to see the eclipise.

    	Also, in this month's National Geographic, there's an article on
    the Hubble Telescope, with some beautiful photographs. My favourite is
    one of "A picture of one of the emptiest sections of the sky, as large 
    as a grain of sand held out at arm's length". With the Hubble's
    resolution, *hundreds* of *GALAXIES* are visible, each containing
    "billions of stars". In this grain-of-sand sized section of "the
    emptiest" area of space. Absolutely mind-blowing.
    
    -Chuck
    

Just dropped off my first roll of comet photo's.  I'll be dropping by soon
to see if they managed to print them early, otherwise I'll be picking
them up Thursday, as I'm working from home till then.  Nice views of
the comet and the eclipse last night.  Took the kids out to see it and
perhaps made the mistake of trying to photograph it at the same time.
They thought the camera was something to look through to get a better
view and I got a bit pissed at Hannah when she started lifting up 
the tripod with the camera on it.  So she stomped off with hurt feelings
(which she makes sure I know about! ;-)  sigh...  Then I found out with
Dan that you could just make out the comet over the roof when you were at
the top of the slide.  And then Dan slid down the slide, which was cool...

Later on, about 10:30 or so, I started heading out to check out
the eclipse.  The moon was mostly covered at that point, so, since
I had a number of shots left on my camera, I set up the tripod 
again and finished off the roll, and started in on the next one.
I've been using ASA 400 film to shoot the comet, but I've seen some
very nice results using ASA 800 (Fujifilm), so I wanted to try some 
of that.  I think the sky is going to be clear tonight, so maybe
I'll set up the telescope before it gets dark, and then everyone
can look through it to get a glimpse an maybe noone will be too grouchy.

And we survived the sleepover.  My, it's amazing how loud 6 eight year
old girls can get.  Up to 1AM, then woke up around 6:30 - 7.  And then
Hannah went to play over at one of her friends for most of the rest
of the day.  She was fried when she got back, and Dan wasn't much 
better.  Neither would admit it though.  Both slept good Saturday night...

PeterT

checked out the comment from a few of the high hills with sweeping
northerly views around where i live.  not bad, better than the last
comet.  on my way back from utah, we got a nice view of it while over
the midwest at 35,000' up... now, that was nice.

    Got my photo's back the other day.  Most of them are crap.  Too
    much jostling or lack of tracking to show a nice picture.  I've
    got one where it looks like the comet has split in two, something
    that can happen to comets that get too close to the sun or
    something big like Jupiter (remember Shoemaker-Levy 9?).
    But Hale-Bopp hasn't done this (yet).  But I've got
    5 or 6 that are kind of interesting looking.  Actually from what
    I've seen on the web, some of them are fairly comparable.
    Took a bunch of shots of the eclipse too.  Those came out reasonably
    well.  Got one or two with Mars and the moon in the same frame, but 
    they were far enough apart that it makes the moon look pretty 
    small.
    Now I've switched to Fujifilm 800 and just have to wait for a clear
    night.  The comet has finally risen over the top of my roof from my
    backyard, so I won't have to crawl out of bed in the wee morning 
    hours.  But it would still be nicer from a field someplace.
    The next two weeks should be pretty nice, as the moon fades from
    view to the later part of the night.
    
    PeterT
    

    
    
    Got to see the comet last for the 2nd time, the first was sunday and
    only then for a coyple of minutes, I have this hill northwest of the
    house thats about 600 feet higher than us so we had to wait till the
    comet had gone higher. Last night was a little hazey but it cloud free
    also only 8 degrees out but the good part was I could sit in the hot
    tub and watch it from there. I also thought the tail looked split it
    also appeared to pulse.
    
    Divide Dave  

    As for pulsing, I don't know, might have been waves of heat rising
    from the hot tub ;-)  However, the tail IS split!  There's a
    dust tail pointing off in one direction, and a gas (ion) tail
    pointing off about 15, 20 degrees in a different direction.
    The ion tail glows a faint blue, and is harder to make out
    in all but the darkest skies.  The dust tail is whiteish, or
    yellowish.  In some pictures I've seen, the damn thing reminds
    me of the V in a Valvoline label!
    
    PeterT
    

re:<<< Note 348.376 by SMURF::PETERT "rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty" >>>
>                  -< part of your impressions are correct... >-
>
>    As for pulsing, I don't know, might have been waves of heat rising
>    from the hot tub ;-)

Hot tub?

I'll be over tomorrow morning at 4 am.

adam :-)

    Not MY hot tub!  Divide Dave's hot tub.  The thought of one appeals
    to my wife, but I'm kind of so-so on it.  Now an observatory, that
    I could get into. (Though it will have to wait for the screened
    porch and hot tub first, probably...)
    
    PeterT
    

	It's been my experience that a hot tub on a cold winter night is a very 
        good place to observe:)

Chris

    
    I just happened to be out-n-about Sunday @4AM and 
    noticed the comet  yowza!!!  b-u-tea-ful
    
    Toby_nekkid_eye_viewer
    
    

       <<< Note 348.380 by SUBPAC::BEAULIEU "Like A steam Locomotive" >>>
                                -< veddy nice >-

    
>    I just happened to be out-n-about Sunday @4AM and 
>    noticed the comet  yowza!!!  b-u-tea-ful
    
yabbut Toby,  did you see the ufo behind the comet?

   
    

�  yabbut Toby,  did you see the ufo behind the comet?
    
    it's *behind* the comet, dammit!
    
    /b

    
    I saw the comet on Monday night.  Clear as could be that and beautiful. 
    One of the best astronomical (is this right) sights I've seen.
    \
    	Mark

> astronomical (is this right)

Yeah, that qualifies...

I tell you, if I was in a spaceship, I think the last place I would want
to be would be hiding behind a comet.  I suppose if you had matched
speeds, the dust and gases wouldn't be hitting you TOO fast, but 
I think it would get just a bit too busy in there for my liking.
Of course, these advanced aliens no doubt have star trek like
shields, so that's no problem...

Darwinian evolution at it's best, as someone put it...

PeterT

    nononono!!!  the UFO is not trailing the comet, it's on the 
    other side of the comet (from us)...   really, petert!�  ;-)
    
    

>    nononono!!!  the UFO is not trailing the comet, it's on the 
>    other side of the comet (from us)...   really, petert!�  ;-)


Well, I say they're still going to be eaten up by the giant
space goat that's hiding behind the moon.  Serves them right...

Anybody in Zko who's interested, I've brought in my comet pictures
if you want to take a look.  ZK3-2 2X43.  Directly under the
guy with the LadyHawk display on ZK3-3...

PeterT

  Well, I suppose I better fly up for a look...

    
    Bob,
    
    dang missed the UFO behind the comet. maybe if'n I put on my 
    X-ray glasses I coulda seen it  8-)
    
    BTW  if "they" say it's a spaceship doesn't that make it an
    IFO (identified Flying object)???
    
    
    Toby

    I was looking at the comet last night through some nice binoculars and
    I could see the trail shifting positions.  Was it an optical illusion,
    the optics of the binoculars, or interference from the atmosphere?  Or
    was it real?
    
    Besides the fact that it's spectacular, the nice thing about Hale-Bopp
    is that I have a clear view from my living room picture window.
    
    Jamie

    Took Patty out for b-day chinese last nite and afterwards went up on
    the Mesa, a mesa (imagine that!) that separates the west side of COlo
    SPgs from the rest, and looking northwest from that point there were no
    interfering lights...nice view,,could see the "double tail" (or so I
    thought) without binocs...the night before was better though..clearer I
    guess.
    
    rfb

    Great view of the Comet last night.  It was weird to be just driving
    along and look up and see it there.  As kid I was fascinated by these
    but never saw one; now all of a sudden two great ones in two years.
    
    Took my son and daughter (ages 6 and 4) up to HLO to look at it with
    binoculars.  Then we played comet in the parking lot; I was the sun,
    they came running by and I whipped them around and back out to deep
    space.
    
    /rick
    

>    I was looking at the comet last night through some nice binoculars and
>    I could see the trail shifting positions.  Was it an optical illusion,
>    the optics of the binoculars, or interference from the atmosphere?  Or
>    was it real?
 
That depends on what type of 'shifting' you're talking about.  If you are
watching it for a while, it should gradually shift against the background
sky.  You might even see individual features gradually evolve and 
fade away, but that is more unlikely with binoculars.

If it seems to rapidly shift around, but return to a, for want of
better terms, common base state, then it is more likely some problem
with optics, either the atmosphere or the binocs themselves.  You
said you could see it through your living room window.  Are you looking
at it with the binocs through that window?  Irregularities in that
glass might make things shift a bit if you move slightly.  Binoculars
are nice to look through, but the fact that you're holding them,
rather than having them on a fixed support like a tripod, means they
probably move a bit while you're using them.  One trick is to 
find a nice hard surface and prop your elbows on them before
looking through the binoculars.

The other possibility is that there is a momentary change in the solar wind   
(which is what is pushing the tail back away from the comet.)  But you 
have to remember that the comet is farther away from us than the sun is,
and therefore anything that you can see, even with binoculars, is rather
large.  The comet's tail is probably a millon miles long or more.
Something that large doesn't change on a very quick time scale.

Got nice views of the comet driving home last night (had to make a Beanie
Baby stop at Solomon Pond Mall).  Saw the comet from the mall parking lot,
and then swinging back onto 290 heading towards 495, and at various 
points along the drive home.  Really wanted to get out and take pictures
after I got home, but had to help feed and read to the kids, and then 
Amy objected when I suggested I could wait on her cooking. (Not something
I really needed to argue about ;-)  Sigh...  Looks like the weather
is clouding up this weekend.  Maybe it'll clear by April Fool's.  
In some ways, this comet is best visible at some of the most inconvenient
times (for me).  Oh well, at least it is still rising in the sky for another
month or so.

PeterT

    
    
    Speaking of Solar wind I heard that on Apr.2nd that the solars winds
    are going to cut the tail off and that the tail should start reforming
    right away. Hope we can catch sight of that....
    
    Divide

>    Speaking of Solar wind I heard that on Apr.2nd that the solars winds
>    are going to cut the tail off and that the tail should start reforming
>    right away. Hope we can catch sight of that....


Hmmm??  You do get tails disconnecting, usually due to the same type of
solar activity that leads to aurora's.  And then the tail reforms since
the original mechanism (boiling off gas and dust) is still in place.
Hadn't heard anything about it happening at a specific date though.
A disconnected tail may only be visible in binocs or a telescope as
a dark band in the tail, but then I haven't seen one myself, so
maybe it will be a bit more interesting...

PeterT 

    all this comet talk makes me want to down a bottle of sleeping pills

�    all this comet talk makes me want to down a bottle of sleeping pills
    
    well, who's to say that their beliefs are any stranger than
    most other religions?
    
    /bruce

    
    Don't forget the vodka.....
    
    Hogan

    
    I was drunk in the back seat of the rental car coming back from 
    Park City to Salt Lake City....looked up and saw the comet but knew 
    nothing of it.
    
    After about 10 minutes of staring at this thing out the window...I
    finally mentioned to JC, Deb and JC's Dad...
    
    "geee, that airplane sure is havin troubles getting anywhere"...
    
    Deb was kind enough to alert me that it was the comet.

re: deano
Pahk City!
shaft!



i've been checking out the comet a bit lately. i am
lucky to have several HIGH hills around me of pasture land,
affording me views in all sorts of directions.  
due to wrist problems from a skiing accy, i've been climbing
this one hill with excellent n-nw views... great for the
comet ...  2 nights ago, when i last saw it, it looked
like it was gonna crash into the ocean... this was around
10:pm, right near comet setting time....  
clearest night yet was the night following the snow storm
comet was sharp in the sky.

    I'll agree about the night after the storm being a good one for the
    comet.  I took a bunch of shots that night, got them processed the
    next day, and some of them are the best pictures I've gotten
    yet. (Well, of Hale-Bopp...)  Now, for any of you 35mm SLR camera
    owners out there, you too can take decent shots of the comet...
    I wasnt' having much luck with the clock drive on the telescope,
    since the comet is not positioned well for veiws near my house, and
    things were drifting too much.  So I just got my trusty little
    tripod, some 800 ASA film, and a 135mm lens.  Then I just found a 
    dark spot down the street (JC's hill might be good.  I know there's
    one DECcie who has a 16" scope someplace in Groton, and I think
    the ATM (Amerature Telescope Maker's) have a site up there too.)
    Opened up the f stop to full, and using a cable release ($5 or so
    if you don't have one) and using the B setting (you need this one)
    took a number of shots from about 10 to 30 or 40 seconds.  It's
    a good idea to use the hat method.  You cover up the lens with a 
    glove or a hat (don't touch the lens!) when you first release the
    shutter, wait a few seconds, move the hat from view of the lens (set
    to infinity, of course) and start counting.  Then cover it up again
    before closing the shutter with the cable release.  The hat trick
    (shades of hockey!) is to minimize the vibrations from opening
    and closing the shutter.  I think I'll see if I can find my 
    50mm lens for the next shot.  That will allow some longer exposures
    before the star trails get too big.  Tonight might be
    clear enough.  I think Amy has finally resigned herself to the 
    fact that I'll go out any night it's clear for this one.
    
    PeterT
    

    
    I got a great look at the comet Friday night, and the tail appeared
    twice as long as the first night I saw it (full moon).  Awesome.
    
    Hogan
    

Took a bunch of comet pictures Friday night, though I got out a little bit
later than I wanted to, and had a limited time before it sank into
the horizon.  Then on the way back home (I just walked down the
road to where there are a few corn fields.  Better horizon's than what
I have...) Mars was looking so pretty hanging out by Leo that I decided
to try a few simple star shots.  And was rewarded with a very nice meteor
streaking a slow orange across the sky.  The camera was not pointed in
that direction however, and I was a bit slow to snap the shutter
(not that it would have mattered.)  I'll be picking up the roll this
afternoon, so I'll let you know if anything good came out.  Good
possibility I'll be out there again tonight....

PeterT

    
    if any one gets some nice shots of the comet, i will gladly pay
    to have a couple reproductions made...
    
    comets have traditionally been harbingers of great changes and 
    very powerful omens...  for me and my life, the appearance of this
    comet has coincided with some really powerful and wonderful stuff...
    bordering on a religious experience...  :^)  so far it's been really
    remarkable and i'd like a couple of comet shots to kind of save a
    moment in time...  
    
    who knows how the changes all turn out?  doesnt really matter in the 
    long run... but it's been nuthin' but happy and cool so far...  :^) 
    
    and dammit, i deserve it...  :^)  :^)  :^)  
    
    						da ve

	Are we still talkin' Northwest sky early evening to view
	Hale-Bopp  ?

	/Ken

    yup
    i think i saw it saturday night

Yup, northwest sky it is.  Though with daylight saving time kicking in, the
comet gets to stay out a little later.  It will probably roll into the 
horizon sometime after 11PM.  Sooner if you've got hills or trees.

PeterT

    grate view of Hale-Bop Sunday nite from up Ute Pass, bout half-way to
    Woodland Park. We were on friends deck at about 9pm, above any light
    pollution..
    
    rfb

re: da ve's request about comet photo somewhere in another note...

Yeah, I'd be willing to make copies.  I've taken enough photo's recently
to come up with at least 1 or 2 good ones.  Some things always seem to
get messed up though.  And they're starting to look all alike.  What
I need to do is get my scope nice and polar aligned and piggyback the
camera onto and through that.  I've already done that in the early
morning hours a few weeks ago, but there's too much drifting and the
stars trail in wierd ways (like you haven't seen THAT before!).  So I've
been relying mostly on a little tripod and short shots of 5 to 30 seconds
or so.  The roll I got back yesterday had a few good shots, but a lot
of them were almost totally washed out by the background light.
I was out at 9:30 - 10PM, and in some the comet can be seen, but 
against a white/grey background, and the snow in the field I took
the shots in is plainly visible.  That was using 1000 ASA film with 
my fastest lens, 50mm f1.8, with exposures of varying lengths.  I've
tried 400 and 800 ASA films too, with varying results.  The 400 had
a lot of tracking problems.  The 800 seems to get washed out after a 
while, with the background starting to take on an orangish tint.
Sigh...  What I'm trying to photograph is the bluish ion tail that you
can see in a lot of the pictures on the web site.  You can see a hint
of it in some of my pictures, but I need longer exposures to really
bring it out, which means I have to go back to the clock drive.  Oh well,
I've got about 20 shots left on another 1000 roll, and 36 of another 800, 
so maybe I'll have some luck with the clock drive.

PeterT

Oh, and it turns out I was somewhat wrong about Hale-Bopp.  It won't take 
4200 years to return, but instead will show up much sooner.  Only 2400 years!
(that should get you excited, eh rfb?)  It last showed up 4200 years
ago, but the comet hits the plane of the elliptic (most of the planets
travel in a very narrow plane) right about the orbit of Jupiter.  Jupiter 
stole some of Hale-Bopp's orbital momentum, and hence the comet will show
up the next time in just 2400 years.  I'd seen that before, but thought 
someone had just reversed the digits by mistake.  But listening to NPR's
talk of the nation last Friday (Science Friday) I caught the bit about
the loss of orbital momentum at Jupiter, which made sense.  So disregard
previous notes about it showing up again in about 4000 years.  Seems I 
was off by a few millenium...

PeterT

    
    that's ok Peter...  what's a couple of millenia between friends? :^)
    
    				da ve_getting_psyched_for_spring_
    				of_4396_and_staking_out_photo_spots :^)

    damn...and i thought i was excited earlyer this morning!!!!
    
    rfb_excitable boy

    Yabbut the bad news is, due to the change in orbit that brings the
    comet back around in 2400 years instead of 4200...it will collide with
    the Earth, killing every living thing.
    
    :-)
    

    zowie... what a photo op!!!!!!   :^) :^) :^)
    
    				da ve

    Praise the Lord and Pass the Applesauce!

Here's some cool comet pictures, some of them almost look like 
paintings...


http://galileo.ivv.nasa.gov/comet/van19.html

And go to the head page (just drop off the van19.html) for a 
selection of things.  These ones above aren't the most detailed
of the comet itself, but display the artistic use of setting 
when photographing the comet in a wide angle lens.

PeterT

    
    One thing I must say...Hale-Bopp totally blows away Halley's.
    
    Will the real comet please step forward!!!!

    Giant solar flare to hit earth sometime Wednesday afternoon!!! 
    

�    Giant solar flare to hit earth sometime Wednesday afternoon!!! 
    
    Duck!  It *is* Wednesday afternoon!    

	what the hell does that mean!!!

	isn't it wednesday afternoon NOW?!

    it means possible communication and satillite interferance, according
    to CNN...and the arrival of that spaceship with the beautiful
    vampiress on board....
    
    rfb

What it does mean, is the possibility of an Aurora Borealis display tonight.
Remember, ONLY a possibility.  At least for this region of New England.
So, go out tonight, check out Hale-Bopp, and see if the sky is changing
colors.  I've heard a number of reports of people seeing HB shining
through an aurora, but those people live north in Canada and Alaska.
There was a big aurora that swept down towards Alabama or so and was
easily visible here in New England back in '89.  I was inside and 
found out about it the next day...   An aurora and Mercury are about
the only things I've still yet to see before I can be astronomically
satisfied!

And Mercury is supposedly at one of it's highest points right now. 
Should be somewhere near the crescent moon tomorrow.

PeterT

    rats...the solar flare was  flop.....I was hoping for massive disruption
    of communications and world chaos!

Turns out it was a rather average solar flare.  The big thing really was
that they had a new scope and great pictures of it.  Still a possibility
of aurora's, but I can definitely say that they were not out between
9 and 11 last night!  But it was pretty freaking cold and windy.
I'll have to see if my pictures indicate a lot of shaking going on...

PeterT

    but it did affect the good nature of some folks 
    
    

Actually, given all the possibilities of things going wrong with my photo's
I think this is the best roll to come out yet.  The blue ion tail is 
pretty clear in a bunch of them (which is neat since I couldn't see
it naked eye or through binoculars) and you can see a bit of detail
in the tail itself.  This has been starting to get a bit expensive,
as I think I've gone through about 4 or 5 rolls.  I've got one roll
left, and then I think I'll hang it up.  Tonight might do it, and then 
again, I might just watch Seinfeld...

PeterT

ps:  of course, if an aurora shows up, I'm already set up to tape
Seinfeld...

i'm back from a walk... went up to what i call the "orchard hill"
which has goo views south, west, and north.   i was at the summit around
maybe 10:30 or so... moon is setting maybe aruond 7 deg. off the horizon
.. comet about 10 deg. off the
horizon in the more-or-less western sky.  
nice night to be out...

    Ah, but did you notice the northern lights?  10:30 or so is just
    about when I first noticed it.  There's a sky glow on the 
    horizon there which I think is probably Worcester and it just
    seemed a little brighter, and then there seemed to be skylights
    shooting up into the air in a number of places between Hale-Bopp
    and sky glow, but they were drifting a bit and fading out
    and then coming back a little later and I realized I'm finally getting
    my first confirmed glimpse of the Aurora Borealis!!!  It was sooo
    cooolll.  ;-)  And a little cold too.  I've seen pictures and 
    movies which put this display to shame, but hey, beggars can't be
    choosers.  There was zip wind tonight, compared to last night, 
    and I got a number of long shots of the comet in.  I think this will
    be my last roll of film for the comet, but the moon and weather will
    probably put me off for a few weeks or so.  Though if the weather 
    holds out, maybe I'll check things again tomorrow.  Now that I've
    finally got the aurora under my belt, now I've only got Mercury 
    as the last naked-eye object left to see.  But now my thirst has
    been whetted for a more spectacular auroral display...  
    
    PeterT
    

    Northern Lights story follows...
    
    One May, maybe in the early ninties??
     whilst fishing out in eastern Colo almost on the Kansas
    border, we stayed up till midnite one nite nite fishing, drinking,
    carryin on, and doin the thangs we do so well. I just happened to look
    up into the sky and see this weird green light show goin on and
    pointed it out to everyone else...we watched for awile before our
    brains finally realized what this display was. We watched for maybe a
    half hour, this moving greenish pattern that kept repeating its
    self...way cool..the only time I've seen it.
    
    rfb

    Tim Grady may remember the documentary I saw with him and his companion
    of the time while at DECUS in D.C.  back in '95.  "Picture of Light"
    about a filmmaker's attempt to record the aurora.  Peter Mettler went
    up to Churchill, Manitoba, to film it.  Some pretty funny moments,
    espcially the attempt to build a snow drift inside a motel room
    by putting a rifle shot through the motel room wall when the blizzard
    outside was blowing in the right direction.  Could have used a drill
    I suppose, unless it needed that concave surface on the outside.
    But, anyway, the films they got were amazing.  I still have the ad
    for the showing, and it shows this guy standing on the tundra with 
    this spiral aurora in back of him.  Last night I just saw
    some pillars of light on the far northern horizon growing, drifting,
    and then fading away.  Just a pale white glow, no colors like I 
    know you can get.  But it made my night.  Hale-Bopp, Northern Lights,
    and even a small meteor thrown in for a chaser ;-)
    
    PeterT

    Yeah, Pete, I remember that show.  Fascinating stuff.  As I recall,
    they produced quite a drift too...;-)  I think I've seen clips of it on
    PBS once since then too.
    

    Hallelujah! The weather has finally cleared a bit.  Still kind of
    hazy, so I think I'll wait till tomorrow to try to take pictures,
    but it's good to see Hale-Bopp again.  Interesting seeing it again
    after about 2 weeks.  The tail has swung about quite a bit.  It
    used to pretty much lie even with the horizon. Now that it's headed
    back out on the other side of the sun, the tail is pointing just about
    straight up.  I've heard some reports of it dimming, but it's
    still pretty bright looking to me.  It's finally been spotted in the
    southern hemisphere, so our Aussie friends can get a taste of 
    what we've been seeing.  So it's not much longer for us here.  It will
    be around for much of May, but after that it fades into the sun
    and back again in 2400 years (though the southern hemisphere will watch
    it fade away for another few months before becoming a telescopic 
    object for another few years.).
    
    Clear skies!
    
    PeterT
    

    i must have misread the newspaper
    
    i thought it said it was first spotted in the southern hemisphere
    
    if not there then where petert?

Well, Alan Hale, and Thomas Bopp, who were the very first ones to see it,
spotted it in I believe New Mexico and Arizona, or somewhere in that 
vacinity, back in June or so of 1995.  At that point it was certainly visible
(through a good telescope) down in the southern hemisphere.  I got my first 
glimpse of it through a telescope down under when I went to the Aussie Decus
a month or two after the discovery.  I believe that it was first seen
naked eye by folks down in Australia, or else where in the southern hemisphere
probably in the fall of last year.  But even seeing it naked eye means that it
is locatable by those that know where to look, and may not be all that easy
to see or notice by the casual observer. What I meant by the folks down under
finally getting a view of it was that they would get a chance to see it
at it's best, when it is an easy naked eye object, rather than something
you have to consult charts and drag out the binoculars for.  Sorry for 
the confusion.

PeterT

    
    The Skipper spotted the comet first?
    
    Hogan

    that's right little buddy...  :^)
    
    				da ve

    you would think that the professor would have been the one

Hmmm, should have caught that reference a while back.  But then the skipper
was probably more orientated to the sky than the land lubbing professor....

PeterT

I saw the comet this past Sat. night ...
still looked nice in that low western sky

Way back when, Divide Dave wrote, and I responded...

>>    Speaking of Solar wind I heard that on Apr.2nd that the solars winds
>>    are going to cut the tail off and that the tail should start reforming
>>    right away. Hope we can catch sight of that....
>
>
> Hmmm??  You do get tails disconnecting, usually due to the same type of
> solar activity that leads to aurora's.  And then the tail reforms since
> the original mechanism (boiling off gas and dust) is still in place.
> Hadn't heard anything about it happening at a specific date though.
> A disconnected tail may only be visible in binocs or a telescope as
> a dark band in the tail, but then I haven't seen one myself, so
> maybe it will be a bit more interesting...


Actually, they are expecting a tail disconnect event in the next week or
two.  It seems I wasn't as up on this aspect of comets as I was on other 
things.  Hale-Bopp is approaching a 'gusty' area of space, and a place
where the main direction of the interplanetary magnetic field changes.  
It's expected in the ion tail, rather than the dust tail, which may make
it a lot harder to see, but you guys out in Colorado may have some luck.
I'll be trying to take pictures.

http://galileo.ivv.nasa.gov/comet/news77.html

give the complete de-tails....

PeterT

    
    >Divide, seems you were right, if premature...
    
    I'm right? Damn, thats once this week!