Conference rdvax::grateful

    Issues I have with women:
    
    1. why do they insist on maniacally cleaning the house when
       somebody comes over, especially the bathrooms, even when
       it's just your brother-in-law who's been over a million
       times before and lives in a much dirtier house?
    
    2. why do they call up somebody to tell that person that they'll
       be over in 10 minutes but end up yakking for 20 minutes?
    
    3. why do they think your dead tapes are 'boring' and 'out-of-tune'
       but they like to listen to Natalie Cole and George winston CD's 
       thousands of times?
    
    4. why do they make women's clothes to be so, uh , non-robust?
       everytime I dry one of her new delicate shirts in with the
       underwear on 'mega-hot' I get in trouble.
    
    - Mr. confused

Re: .1

Well, at least yer startin' things out on the right foot.

Good luck when it comes time to having it removed from the orifice
I fear you'll soon be finding it....;-)

tim

    
>    1. why do they insist on maniacally cleaning the house when
>       somebody comes over, especially the bathrooms, even when
>       it's just your brother-in-law who's been over a million
>       times before and lives in a much dirtier house?
    
    Hmm.  I'm not sure, but I think it's related to the make sure you wear
    good underwear in case you get hit by a car (like *that* would matter
    at that point!)
    
    2. why do they call up somebody to tell that person that they'll
       be over in 10 minutes but end up yakking for 20 minutes?
    
    Usually because it takes the men who are accompanying them the extra 10
    minutes to actually get off the couch to come with them. ;-)
    
    3. why do they think your dead tapes are 'boring' and 'out-of-tune'
       but they like to listen to Natalie Cole and George winston CD's 
       thousands of times?
    
    Sounds like some medieval form of torture to me.  Check the library.
    
    4. why do they make women's clothes to be so, uh , non-robust?
       everytime I dry one of her new delicate shirts in with the
       underwear on 'mega-hot' I get in trouble.
    
    So you can get back at her for turning all your underwear pink.
    
    

    
    re .1
    
    >>    1. why do they insist on maniacally cleaning the house when
    >>       somebody comes over, especially the bathrooms, even when
    >>       it's just your brother-in-law who's been over a million
    >>       times before and lives in a much dirtier house?
    
    Hey!!!!  I resemble that!!!! :^)
    
    Hogan who could only be the "brother-inlaw"

>    3. why do they think your dead tapes are 'boring' and 'out-of-tune'
>       but they like to listen to Natalie Cole and George winston CD's 
>       thousands of times?

Who's George Winston??  Who's "they" and which Dead tapes are "boring"
and "out-of-tune"??  Inquiring minds wanna know!  8-)

peace,
t!ng

>    3. why do they think your dead tapes are 'boring' and 'out-of-tune'
>       but they like to listen to Natalie Cole and George winston CD's 
>       thousands of times?


Try some early stuff from '68 or '69.  That might be a little bit less
boring. 

:-)

Why is it that the men who design venues, sports stadiums, theaters,
etc., think that women don't use the lavatories for the same basic
reason men do?  I mean, there's more mirrors and less plumbing, which
makes for those lines you always see coming out of the ladies' room
at shows...  Where did that idea come from?

And I'm not even going to talk about the vile sh!t I've seen in the
mens rooms at those shows....  Normally I don't dance at a show unless
I think I might have to go in there!  ;-)

tim

    
    Cleaning the house and laundry are not the issues I had
    in mind when I suggested this note..... 
    
    :-(
    
    MJ (who really is smiling even though I typed a frown)
    
    

    re .-1
    
    yeah, yeah, I know that those aren't the real women's issues.
    But when you're married to such a supportive and sensitive
    person as my wife is, laundry and housecleaning are all that's
    left to bitch about.
    
    - Dave
    
    p.s. Hogan, to your credit, I have to say that your house is
    much cleaner these days than the one in Berlin where we had
    the experience with the "tangible forces" :-)

    I meant to tell y'all about this.  I told Chris.  
    
    This was pretty nerve wracking as I was alone on a wooded Littleton
    street -- but it happens to women everywhere . . . at the store, 
    getting gas, picking up the mail, working out, etc., etc.
    
    	Last week at lunchtime I went for my usual approximate
    	2 � mile walk.  As I'm obviously walking for my health,
    	badge showing, enjoying the scenery, this car pulls out
    	from a road on my right.  There's two older guys (around
    	45 or so I'm guessing) and they are pretty disgustingly
    	looking at me.  The driver says "Can I give you a Ride?"
    	URGH.  I wanted to puke.  Of course, I said "What?!  Of
    	course not!"  Now, it was OBVIOUS I was speed walking,
    	I know the difference between someone walking becuase
    	they're trying to get somewhere and someone who's walking
    	purely for the sake of walking.
    
    Does it ever occur to these _pardon_me_for_saying_this_ SLIMEBALLS
    how intimidating that kind of action is?  Sure, this guy didn't
    realize that I had a good friend of mine disappear while riding
    her bike when she was 15 years old, or that when I see females I
    know hitchiking that I pick them up and yell at them . . .  but still,
    what did this man think I would say?  "Sure!  Let me sit on your lap"?
    Give me a break!
    
    It's one thing to tell a woman she's pretty/beautiful or you find
    her attractive.  It's another thing to make her feel like a piece of
    meat on a hook.  
    
    I remember one night at Scupper Jack's (formerly the Rusty Scupper)
    this male approached me . . . acted all macho, feeding me all sorts
    of lines, as if I was going to be stupid enough to believe one of
    them!  I stopped him dead in his tracks . . . told him I thought he
    was lying.  I was right.  We're friends now -- and he was amazed at
    the fact that I read him like an open book.  He's stopped lying to
    women too -- realizing that he wasn't getting very far.
    
    
    What makes men do these sort of things?
    
    sparky_who_almost_joined_the_Man_Hater's_Club!
     

re:          <<< Note 98.10 by LJOHUB::GILMORE "It's time for Change" >>>

    
>    What makes men do these sort of things?
    
Rectal cranium inversion?

		Dave

    	
    	Sparky, I'm glad you didn't "join the man-hater's club";
    	there are so many good guys out there, like the
    	ones in this notesfile.  (I haven't been noting here for
    	very long, but I get a good feeling from the tone of the 
    	notes I've read here.)
    
    	Too bad a coupla goons ruined your walk.  That sh*t 
    	happens far too often.  Good for you for telling 'em 
    	what for!
    
    	-helen
    
    
    	 
    	

>    What makes men do these sort of things?

Testosterone poisoning. :-)

BTW - 45 ain't so much "older".  No AGEism here!

	~dave_not_far_from_45

    >	BTW - 45 ain't so much "older". No AGEism here!
    
    Sorry, it's older than me -- by 22 years!  :)
    
    Hope I didn't offend you dave!

>  What makes men do these sort of things?

I would say the answer is 2-fold...

1) Insecurities.  That's what (IMHO) make men (and people) act like
controlling a!!holes...

2) They've seen it work.  So many times I've seen guys (sometimes the
people I'm out with) go up to women, lie like rugs, act "really macho" (read:
like an a!!hole), and these women end up going along with it like they love
it!  I don't know which part bothers me more, the a!!hole guy or the woman!

No wonder I'm no good at meeting women in bars!

--------

Okay, since this is the Women's Issue's note...I've got a question for
the women.  And this is a serious question...

How come some women talk about wanting to be with "a nice guy", but
only go out with complete "knuckle draggers"?  And to make it worse, 
when someone "nice" wants to go out with them, they either blow him off,
or take advantage of his niceness (read: treat him like sh!t)?

(disclaimer: I've never had this happen to me (hmmm, does that make me a 
"knuckle dragger"??? :-) ), but I have seen this happen to friends of mine
who really are nice, almost to a fault!)

Dave (who wishes he had a nickel for everytime he was telling the
truth but a woman thought he was lying just because he happens to
be male).

    
    >What makes men do these sort of things?
    

     Women.

    
    >What makes men do these sort of things?
    
    Sexism.
    
    (the word of the week I guess!)  ;-)
    
    Dave Weiss....
    
    Watch Oprah !  ;-)
    
    But seriously.....  If the women your "nice-friends" are running
    across are treating them badly then they are probably looking in
    the wrong places to meet people (nice women?) - like bars.
    Not to say that it never happens just that the majority of people
    in bars/clubs (meatmarkets) are only there for the "pickup" -and
    this goes for both men and women.  
    
    Just MHO - of course!  :-)
    
    MJ
    
      

> If the women your "nice-friends" are running
>   across are treating them badly then they are probably looking in
>    the wrong places to meet people (nice women?) - like bars.

Actually (it probably sounded like the opposite), I wasn't referring to the
"nice guys are useless in the meatmarket (tm)" situation.  That's a different
beastie all together.

I was more referring to situations where the man and woman know each other
(therefore she knows how nice he really is).  Thinking about it know, maybe
I have a guess to why...Maybe since the woman is so used to "being nice" and
being taken advantage of and treated like a doormat, when she finally gets
in the situation where she is in control, she takes advantage of it?  Kinda
like a payback situation?  I dunno, just guessing...

Dave (life is purrty funny sometimes, eh?)

>     But seriously.....  If the women your "nice-friends" are running
>     across are treating them badly then they are probably looking in
>     the wrong places to meet people (nice women?) - like bars.

Tell them to go to a hockey game to meet people.  

That's how I met my sweetie!

- jeff_who_refuses_to_add_an_obnoxious_"he_shoots,_he_scores!"_comment_to_
  this_message
  
8-)

    Sparky,
      The question should probably be, "What makes SOME men do these
    things?"  though on occassion we all act like jerks. Oddly enough
    I think part of the answer might be buried in your note.  You talk of
    having a friend disappear at 15 while riding her bike (sigh....) but
    there is no way that these guys could know that.  In the same way,
    there is little we can know about what has shaped these bozo's that 
    they think little of this intimidating tactic.  An abused childhood?
    A father who treated his mother like dirt?  An overinterest in 
    pornography?  Attending Red Sox games?  
      In general a large group of men seem to have been brought up with 
    a prevailing lack of respect for women.  When they treat women 
    without respect, some women are going to reject them as a matter of 
    course, which probably builds the men's anger.  And then there are
    the percentage of women with low self-esteem who will respond to 
    these men, end up as girl-friends and wives and re-inforce these
    attitudes.  Some will just get walked over emotionally, some will end up
    battered and dead.  
       Part of the problem is that the guys who do this sort of thing don't
    see anything wrong in what they are doing.  There was an article or
    a series of articles this summer, perhaps by Bella English in the 
    Globe, about men who battered their wives or girlfriends, and some
    of it was truly frightening.  They were in group sessions, trying to
    control their behavior, and some of the discussions revolved around 
    why the battering occurred.  What was scary was that the other men in
    the group would respond in "supportive" ways when one of them described
    a particular action or conversation that touched off the incident.
    "What a bitch!" or "Yeah, my wife does the same shit"  It's the old
    game of blaming external causes for your behaviour, rather than 
    accepting that YOU control what YOU do.
       There are no easy solutions of course.  Basically we have to change
    society, eliminating hate and fear (the basic root of all these 'isms).
    It's not going to happen soon, unfortunately, but we can all do what
    we can.  Just as I hope to bring my daughter up without any roadblocks
    in front of her, I also hope to bring my son up with the respect 
    for women that they rightly deserve.  We'll have to see how it works
    out, because they do have minds of their own, and at some point, 
    dad will obviously be a jerk who is totally out of touch ;-) Hopefully
    we can teach him that though he is a white male in a society that 
    seems to favor them, everyone should be treated equally.  I admit 
    that I enjoy the priveleges of being a white male, but it bothers 
    me somewhat that I can also be veiwed as someone frightening by women
    and children who have all too good reason to be paranoid.
    
        How does that saying go? "Non illegitimus carobundum?"
    Don't let the bastards grind you down!
    
    PeterT
    

			Right on brother!!!!!

    	
    
    	Well said, dude!

    Who needs pick up joints?  The chances of success seem much better in
    GRATEFUL, plus the drinks are cheaper.  :-)  :-)
    
    re .21
    
    Fight the Power!!  :-)  :-)
    
    Jamie

    > Well said, dude!
    
    Well, actually, Dude is my brother's nickname.  But thank's
    anyway. 
    
    Brother of Dude

    The chances _are_ better in GRATEFUL . . . especially if
    you want to aviod all those sub-humans out there!
    
    :) :) :)
    
    Sparky  

GRATEFUL is the notesfile community's answer to "Studs!"

- dc (turn ons: fireplaces, long walks along the beach, Sterno
      turn offs: cruelty to animals, insincerity, Liza Minelli)

    	       >>Try "GRATEFUL" it really works!
    
                 I told two friends, and they told two friends,
    		 and so on, and so on...

>    	       >>Try "GRATEFUL" it really works!
>    
>                 I told two friends, and they told two friends,
>    		 and so on, and so on...

Hmmm.  I dunno Helen...reference to a (sexist?) shampoo commercial in the
Women's Issues note!?!?!

Dave (causing trouble...) :-)

    	
    	Shoot -- and I thought this would be just the place
    	to discuss all the real women's issues.  You know...
    	lipstick, hair spray, pap smears...
    
    	-h.

"Studs", or "Suds"?

See note 212.*.  C'mon, rfb -  I know yer out there, I can smell
the ol' greymatter smoking'...or mebbe that's somethin' else i
smell....;-)

Somehow I didn't expect the Women's note to slide downhill quite
so quickly.  I have no idea why I had such high expectations, but
so it goes.

Pretty soon I expect things will decay into a blather of monosyllabic
puns from the usual culprits.  Come to think of it, I think I prefer
that to watching everybody tear each others' eyes out. ;-)

Anybody watch the PBS show Frontline last night?  They did a review of
the Clarence Thomas/Anita Hill debacle.  Notably, they interviewed
Clarence's grandfather's best friend (Clarence was raised by his
grandparents, as I recall), who said of Clarence that "the only thing
black about him was his skin, and everything else was white as a
sheep."  And yes, that's a quote.

tim

    re .30
    
    >>	Somehow I didn't expect the Women's note to slide downhill quite
    >>	so quickly.  I have no idea why I had such high expectations, but
    
    Chris and I discussed this note . . . we thought instead of it being 
    the Women's Issue note, we agreed it should be the Human's Issue note,
    but alas, it was already named.
    
    Anyway . . . I doubt highly that this is the END of any REAL discussion
    in this note.  It's just that things have simmered down a bit.
    
    As far as my original question:  "Why do men do these things" . . . I
    forget who said it should be "SOME men", but they're right.  I've often
    said that it's an awful thing that one a$$hole guy can "ruin" it for
    the rest of the guys out there.  Same for women . . . one heck of a
    bitch could turn any guy into less-than-friendly.  In the past year 
    or so I've become really close to a few men . . . some were friends
    I've had for years, but never really _knew_. 
    
    My general view of men since, say 13 years old, has been very negative.
    More or less "can't live with them, can't live without them".  I never
    really took the time before to view them as HUMAN.  I figured most men
    had one thing in mind:  to hurt me in any way they could.  I was amazed
    to learn that a lot of men feel the same towards women.  So, it's not
    really a matter of either being male or female, it's a matter of being
    human . . . having the capability of feeling hurt.  
    
    I'm not saying that there aren't men out there that get pleasure out of
    lying, using, cheating, hurting women . . . but I've found that there a
    lot fewer than I originally thought.
    
    I'm lucky that I know so many truly beautiful people!
    
    :) sparky  

    RE: "why do men do these things..."
    cause all men are pigs!!!!!
    satisfied Tim Grady????? %^)
    
    rfb who respects all women...no matter how he jokes around..REALLY!!!

this really irks me!

this morning I was bringing my scsi analyzer back in the building (it's actually
a portable PC which I configured as test equipment) and some guy who was in the
lobby waiting for someone told me that it looked like a sewing machine.  Argh!
I looked him straight in the face and said, "excuse me but I am an engineer
not a seamstress and this is a piece of test equipment NOT a sewing machine".

this has happened before, once when I was called upon by another facility to
solve thier SCSI problems, the person who greeted me at the door insisted that
I had a sewing machine with me.  He went so far as to refer to it in that manner
during a meeting!  The &#%*#!  

what's the big deal in seeing a woman walking around with a portable machine
of sorts and recognizing it as a tool of a trade OTHER than dressmaking?

It's all too painfully clear that this company, this society!, has a long way
to go.  ;^( 

I just want to scream!  Thanks for allowing me......

Lisa
       

    YA! I tried to bring in my fishin pole the other day and some field
    technician-type geek thought it was a new type of chip extractor! 
    
    rfb

	lisa, while you got that thing out, i have a 80 meg scsi with
	several truncated entries causing 8891 lost allocation units in
	8891 chains, which can't be converted cause I have 2.4M in bad
	sectors. cud you sew up the truncated entries??
	
	;-)  ;-)   ;-)

RE: Lisa.

  I wasn't going to reply to this, but I really feel I need to.  The reason is,
if I was waiting in a lobby and someone (man, woman, child, or giant purple
people eater) walked in carrying something that looked like a sewing machine,
but obviously wasn't, I would probably make some stupid remark about the thing
looking like a sewing machine.  To me, it's not a sexist comment if a woman
happens to be carrying it, but I don't think of sewing machines as something a
woman uses, I think of a sewing machine as a tool that's a hell of alot easier
to hem with then a needle and thread (in fact, sometimes I wish I did have a
sewing machine, but not enough to buy one).

Before I continue to babble, I guess my point is that I may make a similar
comment because I don't see those gender lines that are "traditional" in
our society, and I hope that if I do, it's not taken the wrong way.

BTW, Lisa, I do NOT mean to in any way belittle your anger or annoyance you
feel b/c of a sexist comment.  I just was thinking aloud that it bums me out
that I have to be more careful about what I say b/c of knuckle-draggers who
DO see these silly gender roles...

Sigh.

Dave 

well Dave, both people who made that comment to me did mean it as a gender
role and would not have said it if I were a man.  I appreciate what you are
saying about the necessity you feel to be careful about what you say to not
be mistaken for an ignoranous like those who made these comments to me.
It's a trap we are all caught in unless we are simple ignorant people and is
part of the work that this society ... woman, man, child, and purple people 
eater, needs to accomplish.

Lisa

>this morning I was bringing my scsi analyzer back in the building (it's actually
>a portable PC which I configured as test equipment) and some guy who was in the
>lobby waiting for someone told me that it looked like a sewing machine.  Argh!

You shouldn't have used a Singer portable PC.   ;-)

tim

P.S. I basically agree with you, particularly when you're sitting 
in a meeting - that verges on harassment.  Why on earth would anyone
think you brought a sewing machine into a meeting, unless their goal
was simply to embarass you.

    Maybe they can't handle the fact that there's women who can do their
    jobs!  They probably are the typical LITTLE BOYS (as I choose to call
    immature, uneducated ignoramus' who think this way) who believe that
    a woman's role is to cook, clean and SEW!  (Oh, and not to forget
    be pretty and bubbly and all that barbie type sh!t).
    
    Lisa, just remember that these boys are most likely feeling threatened
    because deep inside them, they know that you're probably better at your
    job than they are.
    
    I'd say something to a) your manager (unless one of them was your
    manager) and b) Personnel.  Don't let these people try to intimidate
    you or joke about your talents.  It just isn't right, whether you're
    woman, man, black, white or the purple people eater!
    
    And if it's any consolation -- I'll listen to ya yell whenever you'd
    like!  The people that *matter* know your capabilities.  Hell, I'd
    like to see one of those boys try and operate a sewing machine!!!  ;-)
    
    
    Sparky

Truth is, I'd like to see *me* try and operate a sewing machine!  Haha, now 
there is a funny thought!!!!  :-)  :-)

Thanks sparky, I know there are people who'll listen and understand.  Luckily
my boss is one of them.  He wasn't in for me to yell to this morning so I
chose to vent it in here.  Thanks again.

Lisa

Lisa:
	You could always tell the people who are making the sexist remarks 
that it is indeed a sewing machine and the reason for your being at facility 
is that your job is to sew shut the mouths of the pea brained dolts who make 
sexist remarks in a company where such comments are unacceptable! Then 
mention you'll be by their office in 5 minutes.

;-)

    
    :-)
    

:-)  good idea Jeff, thanks.  I'll use that the next time - I have a feeling
there will be (at least) one.  ;^/ 

Or, Lisa, howz about taking a scissors to the guy's tie (if his wearing one),
and then say "Oh, don't worry, I'll use my sewing machine to sew it back",
then try unsuccessfully to use your device as a sewing machine, and then say
"Oh my, I guess this isn't a sewing machine after all.  Well, if you tie was
a SCSI port, I could use this to fix it."

Dave

>well Dave, both people who made that comment to me did mean it as a gender
>role and would not have said it if I were a man.  I appreciate what you are

	I know I'm not Dave...or any Dave for that matter, but 
	I was bringing a microscope into our lab a couple years
	ago and the woman lab technician said the exact same thing
	as that man said to you in different context, to me, and 
	I'm a man!!.....and yes, it was a very visible fact that 
	the microscope did resemble a sewing machine because we 
	all sat around and joked about it.  If I ever said anything 
	like that to a man or a woman I would be deeply offended to be  
	brought to Personnel and persecuted for stating something
	that I felt was factual. I'm not saying that they weren't
	being sexist, but you may threaten some perfectly earnest
	people in your anger......sorry :-( , I just am speaking
	from personal experience. 

	

**** this is not directed to you lisa, it is just the way _I_ feel on this
     subject.


As I walk this path of life, I find that I too must always be more and more
careful when I open my mouth and get dressed in the morning.  I have t-shirts
that I don't wear to work for fear they might offend someone.  And, these
are not t-shirts with dirty words or pictures, or drugs, they are just
t-shirts that _might_ cause someone to feel uneasy, when I think about them.
Also, when I speak, I must be sure to use correct gender pronouns, etc.

I dunno, sometimes I think folks here in the East are just too uptight.
In other places in this country and world, people seem to be less bothered
by gender-specific references, etc...  personally, you can call me what you
like - but, if you wanna play, you're gonna pay! (that is, I'll dish it 
right back - all in fun, of course)...

    I think you're right JC ... why, down in Tennessee when I was growing
    up people weren't so worried about offending anyone ... they just spoke
    their mind.  Of course, if you DID offend someone, they might shoot
    you.  Nothing personal mind you, just a different way of communicating.
    
    ... Bobbb
    

    	I grew up right here in this state with two sisters and my mother.
    I learned that men are the most despicable creatures on the planet!
    Little did they know I would turn into one and such a fact was
    physically unavoidable. 
    	Gender specifics are generally not allowable accept in the case
    "man" where JC has so cleverly pronounced it mon it helps. But man,
    despite this I've even met a woman who would not allow me to use such
    ambigeuos suprilatives. 
    
    	I'm really loosing track of the original point though. I see Lisa's
    scenario and I can see the offensiveness. I don't feel it was proper in
    any way an I suspect the purpetrator knew exactly the responce it would
    envoke. This is not neccesarry or proper in the work place. 
    
    	But really the only reason I was inspired to reply here is that
    sense I have developed from contradictions pervasive in society. On one
    hand I've got women telling me how nearly every move a man make is
    deplorable. On the other hand while trying not to make such deplorable 
    remarks and actions I'm destine to live the role of "nice guy" which 
    equates to ~yah, you're good people, but borring as all hell~. The
    expected offence I try to avoid making, leaves me paradoid to make any 
    remark beyond a staight forward, no joking allowed response. 
    
    	I don't mean to negate the issue, but felt compelled to express
    the negativity of the contradictions. Please don't tear me apart, there
    is nothing I can do outside myself and the constant reminder that I am 
    a criminal due to my gender really leaves me feeling that I only have
    the option to be or not. 
    	So far I've chosen the being as without it there is no hope.
    
    Geoff 

    Why didn't you just jab him with your knitting needles?
    
    Jamie

re         <<< Note 98.47 by CUPTAY::BAILEY "Certified Ski Destructor" >>>
            -< it is simpler in other parts of the country ... ;^) >-

>    I think you're right JC ... why, down in Tennessee when I was growing
>    up people weren't so worried about offending anyone ... they just spoke
>    their mind.  Of course, if you DID offend someone, they might shoot
>    you.  Nothing personal mind you, just a different way of communicating.
 

actually Bobbb, this isn't too far off for up here as well.  just read the
metro/region section of the globe for a week or two.  remember this past
summer when those squirt guns caused people to retaliate w/ real guns?

pretty sick.

    
    
    Many men who have perceived themselves to be golden have a knack of 
    putting both men and women down ALL THE TIME.  They have done it for so
    long and have gotten good strokes for it from their immediate circle of
    'friends' that they usually don't hear the patronizing tone in their
    voices or in their written word.  
    
    yes it's a learning experience every day and the learning is toughest
    for those white privileged males who have been nurtured to think
    they are king_chit over all they survey.  
    
    And so when *they* say to me: "Can't you take a joke? " or "where is your
    sense of humour?" or "lighten up. will ya" or "just kidding, geeeeez" 
    after they have delivered a nasty sexist remark or spoken a thoughtless
    slam ... I find that my appropriate response is "The joke is *you*."
    
    My opinion on uptight East coasters?  They are definitely uptight
    because they are sparring with the worst enemy - the ones that look
    like them and talk like them and are educated the same but for some 
    frightened reason have elected to remain in that elitest white male
    frame of mind.  Know anyone like that? 
    allies.
    
    carol
    

look, I do not want to debate what I saw or what I think I saw and the
accuracy thereof.  If only a small percentage of the energy being used
to show me I could be wrong were used to recognize that there IS a
problem then perhaps there could be a solution on the horizon.  Why is
it SO difficult to see that there are obstacles I face daily which the
27 year old male engineers in this forum will never be subjected to?
What I am asking, the recognition of a problem, doesn't hurt - if
anything it will help you to grow and become more enlightened.  

Lisa

    Lisa, I don't think anybody is trying to show you that you could be
    wrong in your perception of the problem, or that anybody in here needs
    to be enlightened as to what the problem is.
    
    Of course there's a problem ... you'd have to be deaf, dumb, blind, and
    stupid not to see examples of sexism every day.  The question is, what
    can you (a generic "you", in this case) do about it?  Is the solution 
    found by taking actions against these people, or is it found within 
    yourself by the way you let the actions of others affect you?  And is it
    worth the effort to try to educate people who have been so thoroughly
    indoctrinated by a male-superiority culture that they're incapable of
    change?  
    
    I'm not sure there is a solution.  How's the saying go again ...
    "against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain" ... some 
    people simply enjoy saying things that they know will "get a rise" out
    of somebody, no matter if it hurts or not.  IMO - there's only two ways
    to deal with those types.  Either do something painful to apply negative
    feedback for their actions, or ignore them altogether.  If their words
    don't carry any consequence to my life, I'll choose the latter course. 
    If they affect my life in some tangible way (other than simply having
    to listen to their unenlightened remarks) then I'll choose the former.
    Of course, you don't want to re-inforce this behavior, but sometimes I
    think a negative reaction does exactly that, because that's what they
    were intending to get out of you in the first place (some folks' idea
    of humor, I suppose).
    
    Andas someone mentioned earlier, this type of behavior is not 
    gender-specific either.  I've encountered numerous women in my life
    who are quite open about their views that all men are basically slime.  
    There's no difference in my mind between this view, and the view of a
    man who feels like he has to be condescending toward women.  Both type
    of person are basically narrow-minded assholes ... IMO ... and not worth
    my time or effort to try to educate.  I basically don't care what they
    think ... what I do care about is not letting their twisted views have
    an impact on my life.  Most times that's best accomplished by simply
    ignoring them.
    
    ... Bobbb
    

 There are those, of course, who simply don't want to change, and will fight
 any change from the old "norm" to the death.  I see it here everyday.  Even
 if one clings to the old "women belong in the kitchen" belief, it is a matter
 of simple respect to acknowledge that one who has invested years of their life
 in education, training and growth, is highly unlikely to be carrying a sewing
 machine into work.  I can see where it is insulting, particularly since the
 individual making the comments was faced with a problem that he couldn't fix.

 Yeah, perhaps its oversensitivity.  But I see it everyday, here and other
 places where women are still treated as inferiors, sexual objects and ridiculed
 should they happen to succeed in an area traditionally limited to men.  I
 think if nothing else its a matter of simple respect, a value which in my 
 opinion, seems to have been lost in society today.


 Look around.  Listen to comments men make about women, in a sexual context or
 not (yes I've been guilty) and then multiply that by how many other men there
 are making such comments and tell me its oversensitivity.  I don't buy it.
 I was witness to an incident here where a woman was verbally harassed and 
 clearly scared out of her wits..and there were men here who laughed it off and
 claimed she couldn't take a joke..


 I don't think it has anything to do with political correctness, insensitivity
 or the like.  It is simple respect for others.




ramblin Jum

 <<< Note 98.54 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Picked the wrong week to quit smoking" >>>

> I was witness to an incident here where a woman was verbally harassed and 
> clearly scared out of her wits..and there were men here who laughed it off and
> claimed she couldn't take a joke..

can you share this incident w/ us Jum?

curious.

RE:              <<< Note 98.55 by ZENDIA::FERGUSON "Roll me away" >>>

 
>can you share this incident w/ us Jum?



 I don't think its advisable at this time.

 Lets just say it was something I'm sure most of us would find atrocious, shock-
 ing and whatever ugly adjective one would like to apply.  The point is, despite
 the severity of the situtation, there were some who thought the victim (no
 physical contact was involved) couldn't take a joke, or perhaps she "invited" 
 the attention.  Knowing this person as well as I do, that is the farthest 
 thing from the truth. 


 At any rate, I don't think insensitivity on the part of the "victim" in this
 case or the one Lisa described (obviously they are a bit different) is the 
 issue.




 Jum

East vs. West.  Gags me to read it.  ***People's people.***  Hell!  Even Marge 
Schott would agree with ya.  She thinks some folks are just too uptight.

So with all this talk about insensitive people; I wanna know how come some of 
my  SWE friends (Society of Women Engineers) came back from a convention 
sporting neat new sowing kits?  Does that mean you can joke about it and men
can't?  And I am being serious here with my question.  

That 2nd paragraph; sorry if it detracts from the original arguments.  It's 
more of a side question (monkey wrench into the works).

outta here!  
things have been hell lately!  
bobo

> ... came back from a convention sporting neat new sowing kits?  
                                                    ^^^^^^
                                                    
Maybe they're agricultural engineers????

- jeff

> ... came back from a convention sporting neat new sowing kits?  
                                                    ^^^^^^
>Maybe they're agricultural engineers????

That's too Much!

apologies on my spelling ...

sewing
sewing
sewing!

Sowing?? :)
bobo

    >> my  SWE friends (Society of Women Engineers) came back from a convention 
    >> sporting neat new sowing kits?  Does that mean you can joke about it and
    >> men can't?  And I am being serious here with my question.  
    
    Well, I think the serious answer is yes, that's exactly what it means.
    
    I'll give you an example ... and please don't anybody take this
    personally.  There's a female Noter in here who's always making
    "blonde" jokes and references, and nobody thinks anything bad about it
    ... and rightfully so.  However, if one of us male Noters made exactly
    the same remarks, with exactly the same humorous intent, I'd be willing
    to bet my week's paycheck that a lengthy and serious conversation would
    ensue about insensitivity and lack of respect ... anybody wanna take me
    up on that bet?
    
    Why is this?  Human nature I suppose ... it's OK to make fun of
    yourself, but if somebody else does it, it's not OK.  This seems to
    work in a lot of ways, not just across the gender gap.
    
    As for the lack of respect thing, I think jum said it pretty well. 
    Except what you're really talking about isn't a gender thing ... it's
    a personality thing.  People who display that lack of respect for women
    usually also display the same lack of respect for anybody who is
    different from them, whether it be gender, race, religion, culture ... 
    whatever.  What you're really talking about here is bigotry ... and 
    sexism is but one symptom of that particular disease.
    
    ... Bobbb
    

re         <<< Note 98.60 by CUPTAY::BAILEY "Certified Ski Destructor" >>>
            -< I think there's something of a double standard ... >-

>    Why is this?  Human nature I suppose ... it's OK to make fun of
>    yourself, but if somebody else does it, it's not OK.  This seems to
>    work in a lot of ways, not just across the gender gap.
 

this is very true, especially in the area of comedy.

    
    I don't really agree with this conversation....  Not because
    I think it's okay for the double standard to exist, because
    I don't.  But I do think this conversation has made a little
    twist...  This isn't about "friends" or even acquaintances
    joking about a piece of equipment that resembles a sewing machine
    or about the color of their hair or anything else...  It's about
    inappropriate remarks in the workplace by a business associate.
    Big Difference.  I think that if Lisa was carrying her equipment
    into the lobby and say Jum or Bobbb were standing there and said the 
    same thing it would not have been taken offensively and everyone
    may have gotten a laugh (I maybe wrong, I'm just trying to guess).
    
    And sparky, you constantly joke about being "a blonde"...  which is
    fine for you...  but not everyone who is blonde (or not blonde, 
    because I see blonde jokes as female bashing jokes) to be funny.
    Just another guess, but I would say that they will be funny until
    you are taken out of context - or seriously - and it hurts you in
    some way.  Hopefully, for your sake, that will never happen.
    
    Just ramblin
    
    MJ

    I agree with MJ, and I don't know if she's blonde, brunette, redhead or
    bald - no offense to MJ or Bobbb ;-) ;-).  I agree with both of you.
    
    Humor is context specific.  The kind of crap that Lisa's talking about
    is sexual harassment, and in her case, on the job.  That's really
    different from us teasing Lisa about her height or Sparky about her
    hair.
    
    It's different to kid each other as friends, then to harass total
    strangers to amuse ourselves at their expense.  I've watched helpless
    as a first-rate sales rep was harpooned by a customer simply because
    she was female, when in truth I knew that female rep was far superior
    than the Neanderthal she was forced to take it from - temporarily take
    it at least.
    
    Still, I hesitate to make cracks like the one with which I started this
    note, because it's easy to be misunderstood in this written forum, and
    I care about the feelings of you people whom I talk with, and share my
    life with every day.  I've never even met MJ, and only met Bobbb twice.
    But I have accidentally hurt friends feelings, even in person, by
    trying to joke with them about their race, religion, gender or
    some other personal attribute, and always regretted that mistake.
    
    tim
    

    
    Sparky, I wasn't trying to bash you, sorry if it came off 
    that way.....  what you do and how you present yourself is
    your business, by no means stop saying things in this file
    because of one of my rambling notes... 
    
    Your right, we obviously do have different tastes in humor,
    and probably alot more than that, considering that I do not
    know you very well at all.  Mostly just from this file.
    
    The point I was trying to make is that there is a time and 
    place for everything.... and IMO the workplace is not a place
    for tasteless jokes and/or inappropriate comments.  
    
    But I strongly believe in the saying "to each his/her own"
    and I do not judge people on how they live their lives.
    
    MJ

    Sparky - what do you mean "outta hear anyway......"
    
    Carol_who_reads_notes_very_sporadically_and_then_demands_to_be_brought
    up_to_speed :-)
    

    Sparky ... I'm kinda sorry I even brought it up ... didn't want to
    create all this controversy, just give an example that everyone in here
    could relate to ... I wasn't meaning to pick on your or anything ...
    like I said, I don't think there's anything wrong with it ... just
    wanted to point out that the same words spoken with the same intent can
    be interpreted in different ways, depending on who's doing the talking.
    
    Sorry, I shoulda used a hypothetical situation instead of a real one.
    
    ... Bobbb
    

    
    There's an issue here that goes beyond the ability to find humor, or
    laugh at yourself.  Attached is an interesting (and timely! I just got
    it the other day) article that discusses this as it applies to jewish
    american women and JAP jokes.  FYI.
    
    Phyllis
    
    
    
                                   JAP JOKES

Author:  Linda Greenman
THE AJC [American Jewish Committee, ed.] Journal 


JAP Jokes have a long history in the annals of Jewish humor.  Largely 
good-natured, in the past they provided Jewish men with a relatively innocent 
means of expressing the universal "battle of the sexes".  In fact, "Jewish 
American Princess" was a title usually bestowed lovingly by men proud of their 
ability to protect and pamper their wives.  Today, however, "JAP" jokes are 
neither funny nor innocent.  In fact, they have become sinister.  The following 
situations testify to the serious misogyny - with more than a hint of 
violence - that underlies the "humor" in current jokes, greeting cards, games 
and graffiti.

* The "Insider's Guide to Colleges", published by The Yale Daily News, 
  identifies schools with high JAP enrollment.

* Colleges with Jewish student populations of 20 percent or more are warning 
  Jewish women to steer clear of certain campus hangouts identified as 
  "JAP-free zones", implying violations could be dangerous.

* A Jewish fraternity booth at a recent college carnival offered "Slap-A-JAP"
  T-shirts and invited visitors to test their skills at a board game with 
  obscene "JAP" implications.

* Two Jewish radio announcers sponsored a "Biggest JAP on Campus" contest at 
  American University.

* A student newspaper at Maryland University listed "No JAPS" housing   
  facilities.

* Cornell University's student publication advertises a "JAP-B-GONE" home 
  exterminator kit.

* Library tables at a large university are covered with obscene and violent 
  "JAP graffiti.

Dozens of questions and few answers surround the current "JAP" joke revival.  
For example, the question of why Jewish men not only participate but frequently 
initiate many of the cruelest "jokes".  Indeed, the term "JAP" referring to a 
spoiled, self-indulgent and often vapid Jewish female, was invented by Jewish 
men.  It is particularly perplexing in view of the fact that no other ethnic or 
religious group has consistently demeaned their women or permitted their public 
humiliation in this manner.

Another question arises about timing.  The reemergence of the stereotyping and 
its widespread support is occurring when unprecedented numbers of Jewish women 
and preparing for and pursuing careers.  While the "princess" has virtually 
disappeared from society, the stereotype has grown stronger, meaner and more 
dangerous.  Some theorists believe that it is precisely the disappearance of 
the economically dependent woman that has fueled hostility.  The Jewish woman's 
success in achieving career goals, self-support and professional status in the 
mainstream of both secular and religious life poses an enormous, although 
unacknowledged, threat to Jewish men.  Demoralized by the loss of their 
traditionally dominant role in economic and family life and unable to accept 
her as a competitor, the Jewish man attempts to diminish the Jewish woman's 
status  and achievements by labeling her a "princess".

Underlying the denigration of Jewish women is the issue of veiled anti-
Semitism.  Since the early 1980's "JAP" jokes have become menacing, often 
implying threats of violence and sexual abuse.  This is occurring at a time 
when openly anti-Semitic remarks are no longer acceptable, largely because Jews 
have  established a firm foothold in American society, economics, politics, the 
arts and sciences.  However, the term "JAP" is an acceptable code word, 
permitting the user to "belong" to the larger non-Jewish world.  As a recent 
Newsweek article pointed out, "Misogyny, after all, is even older than anti-
Semitism and, unfortunately, always in fashion".  Thus, the intrinsically 
anti-Semitic implications are buried.

Not long ago, Sherry Merfish, chair of the Women's Issues Committee at the AJC's 
Houston chapter, was enraged to discover a "JAP Handbook" on display at the 
Jewish Book Fair.  Her attempts to alert the Jewish community to the outright 
anti-Semitic implications of the book were met with alarming indifference and 
incomprehension, even from rabbis.  Citing the long history of self-deprecating 
and masochistic Jewish humor, the rabbis maintained that the book was within 
the  province of authentic Jewish humor.  Ruth Septee, chair of the AJC's 
National Women's Issues Committee, warned that "JAP" insults can easily parade 
as humor, becoming permission to demean Jewish women and by extension, all 
Jews".

Mimi Alperin, chair of the AJC's Executive Committee, in a recent booklet 
published by the AJC states:  "The "JAP" joke is driving a wedge between Jewish 
men and women, and it is becoming an acceptable vehicle for non-Jews to express 
anti-Semitism."  The observation is corroborated by psychologists experienced 
in dealing with identity problems among young Jewish men and women.  They 
point to the fact that the "JAP" stereotype is frequently used by Jewish men to 
justify their preference for dating and marrying non-Jewish women.  The 
statistics on intermarriage are testimony to the validity of these concerns.  
Alperin goes on to observe the tragic consequences on individual lives:  "The 
sad effect of any stereotyping is that it perpetuates self-hatred.  Jewish 
women have their noses fixed, their hair straightened, become anorexic...
Self-hatred leads both Jewish men and Jewish women to dissociate themselves 
from the Jewish community."

Why does the Jewish community deeply sensitive to anti-Semitism and to 
violations of human rights not only permit, but indulge and even sanctify these 
destructive attitudes?  Many experts agree that the source of the problem goes 
back to the early 1950s and the publication of the novel Marjorie Morningstar.  
Vastly popular as a book, the fable went on to become a widely acclaimed film.  
To the galaxy of Jewish stereotypes in literature, the American Jewish Princess 
was added.  Although Herman Wouk never used the term directly, "Morningstar" 
was the embodiment of the stereotypical spoiled, over-indulged daughter of 
doting Jewish parents.  Wouk exposed a whole generation of typical Jewish 
women to the world and to themselves.  "Morningstar's" successor was a product 
of the 1960s and 1970s when Brenda Potamkin became the new "princess" in 
Goodbye Columbus.  While Wouk expressed some sympathy for his heroine, Philip 
Roth was merciless.  Applying a rapier wit and even sharper literary skills, 
Roth created the modern "witch".  now a full-blown narcissist, Potamkin also 
reflected the bourgeois Jewish values of marriage, family, wealth and 
possessions.

Despite the gaps in their humanity, there is a touching ambivalence about these 
characters.  On the one hand, they aspire to become "mod" to look and act like 
a sophisticated American woman.  On the other, they are loyal to the 
traditional values of their home and upbringing.  Trapped by their "outsider's" 
status, lack of experience and limited education, they become objects of pity, 
then scorn and ultimately ridicule by the men in their lives.

What could inspire such hatred and mockery in their creators?  Studies of 
ethnic literature and humor support the theory that the Jewish American Prin-
cess was the creation of first-and-second generation Jewish men.  Torn between 
their loyalty to tradition and the Jewish family and fascination with the 
rewards of assimilation in modern society, they projected their conflicts onto 
Jewish women.  The "JAP" voracious, vulgar and demanding became the target for 
the authors' anger, frustration and guilt.  The Jewish man, struggling to find 
his way and his voice in a world outside the Jewish experience cast the prover-
bial Jewish mother and daughter as symbolic traps.  The male, be he brother, 
father or son was the victim; the sacrificial lamb deprived of this rightful 
position in society because the women who reared and married him were socially 
unacceptable.

The question still remains largely unanswered.  Why is the "JAP" epithet used 
so ubiquitously today?  It is curious that at a time when greed has become a 
national malady; when possessions have become an addiction for an entire 
generation of "yuppies" ostenation is still a Jewish trait; dishonesty a Jewish 
weakness; vulgarity a Jewish characteristic.  It is the anti-Semitic message 
that emerges so clearly here.  Our Jewish male writers laid the groundwork by 
making these assaults on Jewish women acceptable; our comedians (male and 
female) perpetuated it and today it serves to express Jewish self-hatred.  When 
Jews use the term "JAP", it is an attempt to separate "us" from "them" by 
implying, "I'm different, I'm not one of those vulgar Jews".

The writers who created "Morningstar" and "Potamkin" observed their own 
self-doubts and insecurities by projecting them onto others.  Jews who continue 
to use the stereotype, whatever the level of wit or wisdom, are projecting the 
same doubts.  As Mimi Alperin said in conclusion:  "We in the Jewish community 
have a lot of work ahead of us, both in healing the wounds and mending the 
breath within and also combating the growing anti-Semitism without.  Strategies 
must attack both at the same time.  We cannot expect the outside world to stop 
what we continue to do ourselves...Let's learn from the "Black is Beautiful" 
slogan...Let's sensitize Jewish teachers and leaders to their role in fostering 
positive Jewish identity.  Even before college, our kids must have  strong, 
positive Jewish identity so that they won't react to anti-Jewish stereotyping 
by joining the chorus and denying their Jewishness."

While the AJC has traditionally fought all racial and ethnic stereotyping, 
involvement in combating the insidious effects of the "JAP" invasion has become 
a priority since a national conference on the issue was held in September 
1987.  The Woman's Issues division has been contacting all national Jewish 
organizations in an effort to educate their membership to the virulence of the 
"JAP joke" development and to work toward a united resolution.  Traveling 
around the country, making speeches, holding meetings and distributing the 
AJC's special pamphlet on the issue has produced an encouraging response.   
AJC has commissioned a special research project to study the influence of the 
stereotype at a selected group of colleges.  In the planning stage, is a 
cosponsored program to develop special curriculum for elementary schools, high 
schools and colleges with the Coalition for the Advancement of Jewish Educa-
tion.  AJC has also developed a model workshop kit for conducting sensitivity 
training sessions that is being used around the country.  Indeed, all effort 
is directed toward the day when the term "JAP" will be eliminated from the 
American Lexicon.

                      ----------------------------

Linda Greenman is the AJC's National Coordinator for Women's Issues.


    
    
    

sparky - just a shot but the reason your comments got involved is because
Bbbb was citing a double standard which DOES WRONGFULLY exist.

Think about it, so many men, who truly care are afraid to make certain remarks
in fun for fear of being labeled a sexist.  Yet you make them as if it is OK.
If you were targetting only yourself as a blonde it would be different but you
target the dumb blonde stereotype in general by equating yourself to it while
you put yourself (and consequently all blondes) down.  That isn't fair to them,
to you and mostly to the people who are painfully choosing thier words not to
offend blondes.  I don't mind short jokes targetted at me - I even make them,
but have you *ever* heard me equate myself with and/or downgrade circus midgets
or any other group of short people?  I am not a circus midget, therefore I have
no right to put them down.  If you are not a dumb blonde then you have no right
to target them either.

Take it from someone with blonde highlights in her hair, I don't necessarily
appreciate you fueling the fire with your blonde jokes.  And to those of you
who would like to now tell me I am being an uptight eastcoaster SAVE IT until
the day after you have spent years of hearing the "jokes" on a daily basis.  I
am not whining, nor am I looking for sympathy folks just your belief when I say
it gets tiring!  Yesterday you saw ONE incident which enraged me.  Would 
you like to see them all?  I kinda doubt it, heck I wouldn't *if* I had 
the choice.... 

Lisa

By the way, I know my note is rather personal and I apologize for that.
I could have generalized the whole topic (and will if requested) but given the
tone of the string of today's replies this seemed appopriate. It is something I
felt very strongly which needed to be said. 

Lisa

> so many men, who truly care are afraid to make certain remarks
> in fun for fear of being labeled a sexist. 

And, hell, while were on the subject (sort of).  Another sexist (against men)
thing that bothers me, is women who assume that I am lying to them just
because I happen to be male...

Dave

    
    2 more cents and then I'm out of here.  Sparky, I don't think anyone
    here thinks you think blondes are dumb.  And I think we all know you're
    joking when you say it.  (*I* know you're joking at any rate!)  The
    point is, that whether you mean to or not, every time you say "I'm just
    being blond" you're helping to perpetuate a stereotype that DOES exist,
    and that unfortunately, not everyone is capable of seeing for the
    ridiculous, joke that it really is.  In other words, there *are* people
    out there who think that blonde is a legitimate synonym for stupid.  
    And yes, those people are morons.  And yes, I would like to believe
    that it doesn't matter what morons think, but unfortunately - in
    today's world - it does matter.  Cause those morons are DANGEROUS.  
    
    Anyway - enough of this stuff!  I'm off tomorrow to see the Matisse
    exhibit (much more important than work!) so everybody have a good
    weekend - good shows, good birthdays!, good homebrews.. whatever.  I'll
    see you Monday.
    

Re:        <<< Note 98.76 by 2977::WEISS "Beer -- It does a body good." >>>
>                  -< A wish I had a nickle for everytime... >-

>> so many men, who truly care are afraid to make certain remarks
>> in fun for fear of being labeled a sexist. 

>And, hell, while were on the subject (sort of).  Another sexist (against men)
>thing that bothers me, is women who assume that I am lying to them just
>because I happen to be male...


	absolutely Dave!  And if we (as a society) are going to get anywhere
	we are going to have to recognize the atrocity (sp!) in this as well
	as the atrocity in calling my adaptec a sewing machine.

Lisa

<-- re: Japs

I'd like to make a comment or two on this article...

First off some relevant facts: my girlfriend is Jewish and is from Long
Island, and is now at Yale in grad-school.  I was brought up in a
mid-western Catholic family.  We both went to Cornell, where about a third
of the school are Jewish and about half are Christian. 

> * The "Insider's Guide to Colleges", published by The Yale Daily News, 
>   identifies schools with high JAP enrollment.

This doesn't surprise me.  Yale is a very conservative school from the
religious standpoint.  I wouldn't be surprised if the Yale administration
wrote or directly contributed to that in some other way.

> * A Jewish fraternity booth at a recent college carnival offered "Slap-A-JAP"
>   T-shirts and invited visitors to test their skills at a board game with 
>   obscene "JAP" implications.

It was at Cornell.  I was there.  I didn't think is was very funny, but a
lot of people did.  That fraternity got a LOT of heat for doing it.  I'm
pretty sure that the fraternity that did this had a lot of Jewish members.

> * Cornell University's student publication advertises a "JAP-B-GONE" home 
>   exterminator kit.

This is an unfair statement.  *WHICH* student publication makes a *BIG*
difference, especially since there are dozens of different 'student
publications' with dozens of points of view -- Constitutional rights (i.e.
free speech) are a big issue there.

> Indeed, the term "JAP" referring to a spoiled, self-indulgent and often
> vapid Jewish female, was invented by Jewish men.  

I disagree.  Action causes reaction.  At Cornell, there are MANY rather
well-off Jewish women with SERIOUS attitudes.  I've been subjected to these
attitudes personally MANY times, and frankly I can comfortably say that these
women have EARNED their 'jap' label.  Unfortunately, the label is often
mis-applied.  My girlfriend get quite pissed off when people who don't know
her assume that since she's Jewish and from Long Island she must be a JAP.
Because of this stereotype, women with jappy attitudes annoy her quite a bit
more than they annoy me.

J - A significant number of the 'japs' I observed at school were not Jewish.
A - All of the ones I observed were American, most were from Long Is or NYC.
P - Not all were female, but they all had the whiny, stuck-up attitude.

You wouldn't commonly call a white, christian male with similar
holier-than-thou attitudes a JAP, but you might call him a WASP.  There was
an entire fraternity two doors down from mine that was full of that type.
Most folks I know referred to them as Nazi's.  Interesting contrast...

My point here is that it's a certian behavior that gives rise to the label,
whatever the letters or translations might be.  This behavior is simply
characterized by the lack of respect for others.  

> When Jews use the term "JAP", it is an attempt to separate "us" from "them"
> by implying, "I'm different, I'm not one of those vulgar Jews".

This couldn't be more true.  This is probably the most interesting sentence
in the entire article.  You could insert any race, sex, relition, etc. in
place of 'Jews' and arrive at the same result:  people resisting a
stereotype that results from behavior that they, and other people, deplore.

- jeff

    Well (at the risk of sounding sexist) I've always said that I refuse to
    treat any woman like a sex object unless, of course, she promises to
    treat me like one too! ;-) ;-) ;-)
    
    tim
    

re: MJ and comments in the workplace

this is something that is very dependent on the types of people working at
a particular place.  my first job at dec was loose - lots of joking, lots
of bashing, lots of joke telling, lots of swearing, etc.  males and females
alike participated.  BUT ... it was all in fun, and we did it all the time,
it wasn't a big deal... nobody ever got taken to personel, as far as i know,
for anything said;  while it may not have been 100% appropriate, it was
the status quo, and we all enjoyed doing it.

then, 1.5 yrs after that job, i moved to a different place.  this place
was in sharp contrast to the first place of work.  no jokes; no kidding around;
just work, and serious talk, period.  a big difference;  i surely would have
been long gone if i acted the way i acted in my previous job.  i learned
a lot at my second job - but, i always thought carefully before opening
my mouth.

when i walk into a new job or any social situation, my guard, by default, is
on and everything i say is carefully contructed such that it won't offend
anyone ... but, nobody is perfect... we all screw up every now and then.
if the situation deems joking/swearing/etc as ok, i may participate, but
not until i feel comfortable.  i'll never walk blindly into a situation and
tell a dirty/ethnic/offensive joke.  no way. no how.

re: japs

when i was a youngster at univ. of hartford, i remember walking to the cafateria
with my new roommates and floormates.  they were commenting on various
people around the area using the term "japs" and "jap".scanning the area,
i became quite puzzled because i associated the word "jap" with japanese,
and i could not spot a single asian person in the area.  so, i inquired and
they told me about "japs" ... a new term to me.

i too found that someone stereotyped as a "jap" was not necessarily jewish;
if one person fit the "profile", they were labeled a "jap".  i never really
got along well with this stereotype because i always got the impression that
i was not good enough for them.  lots of sour memories of these types of
folks based on my experience with them at college .

There are always appropriate AND inappropriate comments to be made
between people in any relationship.  Recognizing that and dealing with
it effectively is part of the communication process between humans.
It is fairly simple to see however that the comment made to me Tuesday 
morning by a *stranger* was inappropriate.

    re: JC a couple back...
    
    I agree with you 100%!  I too have worked in a group like
    the first one you described... and it was great.  I considered
    the folks in that group more like friends that just your 
    average professional relationship for just that reason.  We 
    were all on the same wave length and no one got offended.  
    
    I'm not a total stick in the mud ya know!  I get & give my
    share of wise ass remarks and jokes.  I wouldn't, however, 
    divert to sexist or degrading comments or actions for a laugh
    at someone else's expense.  I don't think anyone in this file
    would!  
    
    MJ
    
    

     JC, You make the comment that no one was offended, as far as you know. 

     The, "As far as I know", part should be given more weight than I think
it is. It is very easy to take offense to something, but because it is status-
quo, hide one's reaction and deem yourself intolerant. The image that comes 
to mind is with myself and a particular coworker. He laughs, at everything, 
often in a manner I find belittling. Frequently I've had to work with him and
when faced with a dilemma he'll comment with what I interpret as a degrading
response and burst into a resounding laughter which I cannot be heard through. 
I can never get a word in edgewise and to me the entire correspondence becomes
one sided with Carl annoying the shit out of me and me just shutting up and 
looking for an escape.
     This is Carl and there is nothing I can do to change him. My reaction 
would clearly be deemed over sensitive to his humor. That evaluation does not
serve to make me feel any better about the situation and only further 
belittles me. As recent as this week I've seen myself pondering the merits 
of looking for a different job. He's even been made aware that I react 
negatively to his humor, which I so often feel is at my expense. 
     But as a rule I can't react to his every offensive gesture because it 
leaves me the one who's deemed wrong. Because he takes it as a joke and I 
don't his lighthearted, "this means nothing" response is the one that's 
taken as valid and acceptable, while my discomfort is interpreted as over
sensitivity. Because of this I cannot express my distaste for his humor. 
Where it is status-quo, I cannot react! 
     I'm bringing this up because you mention that the joking was taken 
lightly by all involved. But, unless you are in every one else's head, 
you don't know this for sure. The more accepted the behavior is the more 
difficult and dangerous it is to take offense. Not that it's difficult to
be offended, but it is dangerous to let that reaction be know. If you do,
and the behavior is deeply rooted status-quo, it is deemed over sensitive 
and you are further belittled. 

     And I am a male WASP (which I never interpreted as a derogatory acronym,
it merely describes the color of my skin, the origin of my race and the 
religion I was {sorta} raised under), the majority, in a position to be 
the least affected by these actions in the general populous. I can see here
in work how one person is blind to my feeling about his action. I am grateful
that I only have this one source to avoid. But, see here how I am not in 
a position to express my distaste with one person, and try to see deeper that
if it were a real percentage of the people I encountered every day how I 
would be invalidated at every turn I took. 

     Because something is status-quo does not make it inoffensive, but it 
does make the expressions of one's offense less allowable. 

Just imagining
Geoff

    Hi Jeff,
    
    I can't vouch for any of the statistics in the article, or comment on
    student organizations or publication data, cause I don't have it.  I
    also don't really feel it's relevant.  I don't think that anyone is
    claiming that Yale or Cornell or any of these schools is inately
    anti-semitic (unless of course your comment about Yale's
    administrations involvement in the publication is true - which I don't
    really even feel like thinking about! :-/).  What is important, is that
    info like this is distributed and accepted as harmless attempts at
    humor.
    
> Indeed, the term "JAP" referring to a spoiled, self-indulgent and often
> vapid Jewish female, was invented by Jewish men.  

>>I disagree.  Action causes reaction.  At Cornell, there are MANY rather
>>well-off Jewish women with SERIOUS attitudes.  I've been subjected to these
>>attitudes personally MANY times, and frankly I can comfortably say that these
>>women have EARNED their 'jap' label.  Unfortunately, the label is often
>>mis-applied.  My girlfriend get quite pissed off when people who don't know
>>her assume that since she's Jewish and from Long Island she must be a JAP.
>>Because of this stereotype, women with jappy attitudes annoy her quite a bit
>>more than they annoy me.

    I don't really understand you here.  The reason why your girlfriend is
    mislabeled a JAP, is because of the existence and misuse of the label
    to begin with.  If a women is overconcerned with money or materialism
    or makeup or whatever, what does being Jewish have to do with it? 
    Nothing really.  It's just an ingrained stereotype that we're all used
    to assigning someone.  And I know.  I'm a jewish woman from NY and
    *I've* considered lots of people JAPs.  Calling a catholic woman with
    those same characteristics a JAP doesn't negate anything.  We're still
    saying that that particular woman is exhibiting characteristics which
    are inately jewish - that's what the J stands for!  And that's just not
    true.  Anyone can "have an attitude".  Religion shouldn't have anything
    to do with it. 
    
>>My point here is that it's a certian behavior that gives rise to the label,
>>whatever the letters or translations might be.  This behavior is simply
>>characterized by the lack of respect for others.  

    I agree with you about the behavior, but I think we're wrong that the
    translation is irrelevant.  It's irrelevant to us because we see past
    it.  The point of the article, is that everyone doesn't.  The J does
    stand for Jewish.  And obnoxious, stuck up behavior should not be
    characterized as inately jewish.
    
> When Jews use the term "JAP", it is an attempt to separate "us" from "them"
> by implying, "I'm different, I'm not one of those vulgar Jews".

>>This couldn't be more true.  This is probably the most interesting sentence
>>in the entire article.  You could insert any race, sex, relition, etc. in
>>place of 'Jews' and arrive at the same result:  people resisting a
>>stereotype that results from behavior that they, and other people, deplore.

    Agreed.  And it comes from a lack of self-pride and self-awareness as a
    group.  It's like when blacks used to only try and marry light-skinned
    blacks.  Even today, I know one black woman who's husband gets pissed
    off every time she goes to the beach cause he doesn't want her to get
    any darker than she already is.  It's this cycle of self-induced and
    societal-induced self hatred that has to be stopped.
    
    Enough from me!  I have a hangover and I'm getting serious mental
    overload!!  %*}  Time to find the Here Comes Sunshine note!!!!!!!
    
    :-),
    Phyllis
    

------------------------------

From: Ken Kaufman <[email protected]>
Subject: DeadBase looking for a few good women
Reply-To: [email protected]
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1992 16:54:04 GMT

I got a note from John Scott (one of the DeadBase triumvirate) that said
that he is seeking reviews of shows from this past year for inclusion
in the planned DeadBase '92 volume.

One thing he mentioned was that the reviews section has, in past years, been
about as male as the US Senate.  He encouraged us to see if we could find
some women who would like to participate.

Given that I'm not about to take after Sweet Jane and go out and get that sex
change, I'll mention it to the women of the net.  If you attended (or will
attend) any Dead shows in 1992 and would like to write about them, you are
encouraged to do so.  Your "reviews" can be long or short, and can discuss
the music, the scene, personal experiences, or all of the above.

Anyway, if you'd like to participate, contact John Scott at [email protected]
Be sure to tell him which shows from this year you'd be interested in covering,
and he'll fill you in on the rest.

==Ken

	Someone call T!ng  ;-)

	2 days in a row, the Nashua Telegraph has had headlines that
	have had me doing a double-take.

	Yesterday, it was about the fact that the state legislature has
	voted to add the words "sexual orientation" to the civil rights
	statute. 

	Today, it says that they've repealed the 1848 anti-abortion laws
	that were still on the books.

	What's going on!

	We have a woman governor now.  One of her first acts in office
	was to get the state to kick in some money to any towns that want 
	to start public kindergarden.  

	Are these "women's issues"?  Is that why nothing's been done about
	them or they've been voted down before?  Did it take having a woman
	governor to have the state show some humanity?

	Debess

    2 words debess
    
    
    new........hampshire

    apparently now it is a "new" hampshire...  :^)

    Either way it's good news. I'm astounded on a daily basis how
    much of this society is still living in the dark ages.  Blech.

    On a lighter note, anyone know anything about a playground in
    Littleton?  Like, a fancy one?  (not for me !!!!)  ;-)

    oh, well, maybe... ;-)
    Tom

I say, it's the women today, smarter than the man in every way.

    
    	dixie chicken --- little feat