Conference rdvax::grateful

    It's a statement of what justice really means in this country.  It's
    truly disgraceful when the entire nation can witness a crime such as
    this one and the jury still finds the defendent innocent.
    
    My real question is "what are we gonna do about it" ???
    
    ... Bobbb
    

 The jury was 10 whites, one hispanic, and one Asian.

    life in war time comes to mind, then sure enough it comes on the radio!
    what bothers me here is that people are out hurting people, for what ?
    because they are pissed about a court ruling, a ruling about cops
    beating on a man, now people are out beating people and burning stores,
    looting these stores, beating on a reporter during his live broadcast 
    (I just heard this on the radio, very scary sounding) 
    
    so far 5 people have DIED because of a court ruling, I feel sick.

    
    I feel such dismay and hopelessness today as I read the verdict
    from the Rodney King trial.   The verdict and the followup interviews
    and stories all have the same message that was delivered to Anita Hill
    and to the victim from the Willie Smith trial ... some of us have
    value to this society and some of us do not.  King was portrayed as an
    animal as if to justify the treatment given him.  Anita Hill was
    portrayed as a vindictive and jilted female as if to justify the
    behaviour against her.  The Smith victim was portrayed as an unworthy
    person who asked for 'it'...unpleasant words to any of us who have ever
    been attacked.  The picture is an ugly one.  
    
    I wish the violence occuring now in LA weren't happening but I believe 
    it is the result of years of frustration culminating with this
    event. I can identify with it, I can understand it, I am saddened by 
    it, I think it is the way we in this society have learned to get
    attention after being mistreated for so long.  
    
    WZLX played Dennis Miller's live reactions to the verdict...apparently
    taped during his show last night.  He also expresses shock and dismay
    at the verdict and suggested that the LA poice tape would now become
    a benchmark as to how far a cop can go.  Also said it might even become
    a training tape - especially for the LAPD.  Can you just see it? 
    
    I'd like to think of something positive to close with but I can't do
    it. 
    
    

Does anyone know whether the home videotape made of the beating was deemed
admissable evidence by the court?

 Yes it was...the prosection decided to use the tape rather than Rodney King's
 testimony, as the tape spoke for itself.  Not loud or clear enough apparantly.

    From Court TV I learned that 8 of the 12 jurors have had previous
    Military careers, and, to paraphrase one of the "expert" guest anchor
    people:
    
       "Most of the people in Simi Valley (Ventura County, where the
    trial was moved to) have migrated there from L.A. to get away from
    people like R. King. It was probably the smartest and most strategic
    moves the Defence could have made".
    
    Let L.A. burn. This is what it's come down to. There's no other was to
    get the message to the Oligarchy.

    I didn't realize this note was started when I put my comments in
    91.1986. Mods - feel free to move it if it seems right
    
    carol
    

    no problem Carol its been done....
    
    Chris

	I was stunned to hear this verdict...stunned and angry.
	I can understand the feelings that the blacks living in LA
	must feel about the "justice" system and "law-and-order" -
	there is none for them...

	I too wondered about the makeup of the jury - how could that
	have happened that there were 10 whites and no blacks?

	But I am deeply saddened over the violence that has overtaken
	the city.  It certainly has the nation's attention today, but
	violence always sickens me...

	Debess

>	But I am deeply saddened over the violence that has overtaken
>	the city.  It certainly has the nation's attention today, but
>	violence always sickens me...

I understand the anger that blacks are feeling too.  But what's happening in
L.A. is just as sickening as the verdict, to me.  Last night they showed
footage of a woman who had been pulled out of her truck and was being beaten.
Random violence against innocent citizens as retribution?  

This country is going down the tubes ... Lydia and I have been thinking lately
about having children, but with the way things are going, I think maybe not.

	absolutely, dc, I find this violence appalling...
	if only the world would handle things MY way (half ;-)...

	Debess

	ps - I read the article on Lydia in the Telegraph over
	the weekend.  What a wonderful, selfless woman.  You
	would both be great parents...

    Unfortunately, I believe Mary's right ... this is just the beginning
    ... and not really the beginning, but the re-awakening of what was
    started in the sixties.  It took violence in Newark, Watts, and Detroit
    to get changes going back then in what had become institutionalized
    racism.  It's going to take violence to change it today.
    
    What we're seeing here is a sign of what our nation has become. 
    Justice is dead ... what we call justice today is nothing more than
    lawyer's games, and the rich can afford better players than the poor. 
    Democracy is dead ... what we call democracy today is only a formality
    designed to keep the masses from realizing that the Constitution has
    been undermined and our rights are slowly decaying into nothingness.
    
    I'm afraid that what this country really needs is a revolution.  If we
    want what we once had, we're going to have to fight for it.  And the
    enemy is the very people we've entrusted to uphold our democratic
    ideals, enforce our justice, and maintain our rights.  But we've been
    betrayed.  Our leaders don't work for us anymore ... and we're no
    longer given the option of electing leaders who will.
    
    Ironic, isn't it, that Americans today have less democracy than their
    counterparts in Russia.
    
    Today it's the Rodney Kings of the world who are the victims.  Tomorrow
    it's you and me.
    
    ... Bob
    

>    want what we once had, we're going to have to fight for it.  And the
>    enemy is the very people we've entrusted to uphold our democratic
>    ideals, enforce our justice, and maintain our rights.  But we've been
>    betrayed.  Our leaders don't work for us anymore ... and we're no
>    longer given the option of electing leaders who will.

The enemy is also your fellow citizens.  Listen to what the interviewed members
of the jury have to say as to the reasons for their verdict.

    I haven't heard any of thier statements yet, would you care to post a
    couple here (paraphrased, if necessary)?

    Or, in simpler terms,
    
  1  Get yourself a gun, while you still can, before those are outlawed in
    order to make it easier for the police to "do their job" (not
    advocating violence here, advocating self defence. Be an idealist, but
    when it's time to defend your wife or children, have the means to do
    so).
    
 2   When it's time, be ready to head for the hills...

First and foremost I agree alot of what's been said BUT I wanted to add in a 
few points I think people missed:

The jury - 1 asian, 1 hipanic, the rest white - and divided equally between
men and women (another point I didn't see mentioned).

Now who was the jury there for?  Remember a jury of peers thing?  Well the 
people on trial were white police officers (possibly a hispanic and I'm not 
sure if any were black) so regarding the jury as inapproprate, to me, is plain 
sensationalism without looking at the facts.  Rodney K. was not on trial.  
That was a trial against the involved "Peace" Officers of LA.  One has lost a 
job already (the rookie was fired) for it (there's some justice not mentioned 
yet) and the others still face diciplinary action.  

I agree though that they mistreated Rodney and should have had some sort of
judicial diciplinary action taken against them.  

As for burning and looting - that makes me sick.  They are burning and 
looting their OWN neighborhoods.  Sure will gain alot of respect in the world 
that way.  It makes so much sense to me to use my anger and frustration in such 
a way (he says sarcastically) ... that's a bunch of BS.  A firefighter shows
up to put out a fire - they shoot him in the face.  Hmmm;  Is this the sort
of message they want to send?

Rodney King got badly mistreated; that's no way to handle it.

Another thing - ever hear about anyone trying to press charges against anyone
for Assault and Battery?  The cops (here in NH) will tell you that it's your
word against their's and there is not all that much you (or they can do).

The Rodney King thing is a bad thing, yes.
What's gone on since will only perpetuate it.

bob

"The nineties will be remembered for three explosions, the exlosion of 
information technology, the exlosion of the nation's debt, and the explosion of 
racism"

Me

re .19

All I've heard so far is that one woman juror said the beating was justified
because of King's "background," and that he led the police on the long, high-
speed chase (I'm sure among other things).  I'm sure more will be coming out
in the media soon.

One of the cops involved in the beating said that he thought that King was on
PCP (ooh, the specter of drugs; we know *anything*'s justified when they're
involved), and he was afraid for his life.  Give me a break.  Anyone who saw
that film knows that King was down and out with about 30 more blows to come.
Afraid for his life, while beating up on a man on the ground, surrounded by
several of his fellow officers?  Come on.  And I'm sure it was all part of
routine police duty when they taunted him in the emergency room about "playing
hardball."

Maybe someday the people will realize that the police work for them, and that
the police aren't above the law.

	re: jury of peers...I don't think the intent of this was
	that everyone on the jury be exactly like the person on
	trial.  I think in means that the jury be made up of
	the "common person", ie not someone who is in the judicial
	branch of the government.

	I think (with hindsight at this point of course), it would 
	have been prudent to have SOME blacks on the jury - don't you?  
	Certainly would have added a different perspective to the
	jury deliberations I think.

	Now the whole thing is even MORE divided along race lines.

	Debess

    RE: jury of peers
    
    Taking that sentence so literally would mean that they should've picked
    12 cops to be jurors.
    
    I'm sorry, but that tape did speak for itself.  We don't live in Nazi
    Germany ... and that sort of beating shouldn't happen to anybody.
    
    I think we'd all feel like rioting if that sort of treatment happened
    to one of our relatives.  I'm not trying to justify what's happening in
    L.A. right now ... but even a stupid person should have realized that's
    what would happen if those cops were found innocent, given the evidence
    against them.
    
    ... Bob
    

A couple more of those quotes by a juror paraphrased of course:

This outcome may have been partially due to the fact that Rodney King didn't 
take the stand.

As for the "jury of peers" thing.  I just wanted to remind everyone exactly
who was on trial.  All of this talk about a black jury and all - you guys were 
envisioning the wrong man as being tried.   I just reminded you that the
police were on trial (who are white and maybe a hispanic...)

>    I'm sorry, but that tape did speak for itself.  We don't live in Nazi
>    Germany ... and that sort of beating shouldn't happen to anybody.
    
Hey Bobb,  I think we all agree on that one...I don't see anyone in here
saying "justice was done".

bob

         <<< Note 251.25 by TAMARA::GRABAZS "black dirt live again!" >>>
>	I think (with hindsight at this point of course), it would 
>	have been prudent to have SOME blacks on the jury - don't you?  
>	Certainly would have added a different perspective to the
>	jury deliberations I think.

Yes Debess,  I agree that it would have been the right thing to do.  
I said just a minute ago though that I was only reminding you of who
was on trial.  Rodney King was procecution.  Cops were defendents.

bob

heard from elswhere:

The rioting is bad but if I were in those shoes I suppose I would have
noting else to do but riot.

So maybe I agree with that....what would I do?  Well it's easy to say that
that's a bad thing (and it is in the end) BUT if I lived in Watts would I 
riot?  who knows! probably...

I guess there are 9 major fires now and 11 or so dead.  

Bush has said something like "the judicial system has worked and all that's
left to do is repsect the law and use the appeals court"

Hmmm,  I don't think it worked.  But I don't know what else he could say?

bob

did anyone hear the news?

>Hmmm,  I don't think it worked.  But I don't know what else he could say?

Well, he could've told the truth, but that's not really one of his strong
points.  :^}

 re:                     <<< Note 251.29 by LANDO::HAPGOOD >>>
    
>Bush has said something like "the judicial system has worked and all that's
>left to do is repsect the law and use the appeals court"
    
    I don't think you can appeal an acquittal.  There are civil suits
    pending, and the one charge upon which a mistrial was declared, and
    they may be sued for civil rights violations.  But, the acquittal for
    excessive force is a closed case.
    
    Jamie

	I don't agree with the verdict.

	I don't agree with the rioting.

	I heard Bush's statement on the radio this morning, and I didn't hear
him say that the judicial system worked.  It sounded like he was annoyed at the
verdict, himself.  He did say that the rioting was not constructive.

Mark

From USA Today (yeah I know ;^) -

	"President Bush, saying the 'system has worked,' called for
	'respect for the law.'"

    
    I just talked to John Shep who should be studying for his last final
    but is listening to the news.  he said that Bush had a news conference
    and said that the federal judiciary system is prob going to get involved.
    the case would not be one which tries to determine whether there was
    'excessive violence' but one which would examine whether civil rights 
    were violated.  So the police would be on trial on a same but different 
    charge.  The government can do that.
    
    AND in my opinion - Bush is no fool about this.  he sees that someone
    has to take the fall and it ain't gonna be him.
    
    Did anyone see Bryant Gumbel on TODAY this a.m.?  It's the first time 
    in all the years I've watched him that I've seen him distraught.
    
    carol
    

    The rioting is not just because of the verdict,... it is due to
    long term neglect of the problems of the inner cities. The Reagan/Bush
    era is now bearing fruit,. trouble is its all rotten and burning.
    Yes, the verdict is the spark that lit the fuse,.. but governemnt built
    the bomb. Its just doing what a well built bomb is supposed to do,..
    explode all over the place.
    
    Some have compared contrasted whats happening in LA right now
    to what happened in the sixties. Well, there are a lot of parallels
    but to me this is a new and unique event. I not so long ago said that
    conditions in this nation were similar to conditons in France that
    preceeded the bloodiest revolution in history. To me, like others, this
    is "just the beginning"... What happened in the 60's has died,.. its
    the 90's, this is reality, and we are in deep sh*t. Yes, if we had 
    reacted better to the 'pre-cursor' events of the 60's maybe we wouldn't
    be in this mess now. Its all academic, because we are *here* right
    *now*.
    
    Maybe when our governmet gets more interested in educating rather than
    arresting our black youths, things can start to change.
    
    We've all been dealing with the short end of ths stick in the "War on
    Civil rights",.. to me,, this is just (finally) the first sign of a
    counter battle, and in a way that I can't describe, I'm almost relieved
    to see something happen...despite the sickening feeling I get watching
    innocent people getting harmed. Sometimes a little blood must be
    spilled to avoid spilling lots. What remains to be seen now is how
    government reacts, and that will determine how much blood gets spilled
    overall.
    
    	Find the cost of freedom, burried in the ground
    
    They say violence is not constructive. Well,.. at this point I'm not
    so sure. To me, what our government has been doing isn't "constructive"
    either,.. and if a little violence against that system happens, maybe
    it can be viewed as constructive. Unfortunately, as someone pointer out
    already, lots of violence against other people is happening,... but
    if it is just the beginning,. things will organize and start hitting
    the	right targets. In other words, if was one of the jurors, or one of
    the cops who did the deed,.. I'd be 'heading for the hills' right now.
    
    	The only question we should be asking ourselves is how long are we
    going to sit here and let this crap go on before we do something about
    it ourselves. The question of whether you need to use violence or not
    depends on how long you wait and let things ride,.. ride,.. ride....
    
    							/
    

    	Certainly a hot topic here.....
    
    	A couple of my thoughts.
    
    	First, no one has mentioned the prosecuting attorney. With all
    the great evidence, how could he lose? Yet he did. Looks to me like
    there is a problem. If you get high paid defense attornies, and poorly
    payed prosecuting attornies........I saw an interview with him, and he
    didn't seem to distraught. I really think this guy just blew his whole
    career.
    
    	Second, and its hollow, but did any of us see all of the evidence,
    or even all of the videotape? Or even the stuff that happened just
    before the videotape? I know that bad news sells, and all we saw was
    small pieces of this home videotape. 
    
    	If we have faith in our system, which says a person is innocent
    until proven guilty, and a court found these cops innocent....I mean
    the prosecutor had his chance to pick the jurors too.....
    
    	Either there was a lot of evidence that we won't see, or this
    attorney is Bozo's brother.
    
    	And for the record, I diagree with the verdict too.....but I sit
    and wonder about what we havn't seen.
    
    

    There has never been a more open-and-shut case of police brutality
    anywhere.  [ That is not to say that there will not be soon :^( ]
    
    One might reasonably ask, did the prosecution really want to win the
    case?  Prosecutors are used to working with the police to convict
    whoever the police arrest.  They are not used to trying to convict
    the police themselves.  They are on the same team.
    
    They allowed a change-of-venue to a place where anyone who looks like
    Mr. King is a criminal until proven otherwise, and the cops can do no
    wrong.  The jury selected seems atypical even for that area.
    
    Could this verdict be a product of collusion between prosecution and
    defense?     

    Yes Andy,. I forgot to mention that as well,,... but there is an air
    of corruption wafting out from all corners of this episode... you could
    very well be right
    
    							/
    

    Haven't got a lot of details on this one, so don't blow it out of
    proportion yet.  But it sounds as if the protests are spreading.  We
    just got mail in the building saying that both the bay bridge (the
    bridge between Oakland and San Francisco) and another major freeway
    interchange in San Francisco have been closed.
    
    The reassuring news is that the closures are caused by non-violent
    protests, and mainly to help prevent the protesters from getting hurt.
    Hope that's the real story.

	Caught something interesting on the radio this evening.  Was listening
to WBUR to get the news during All Things Considered.  They usually cut away to
give local news and traffic reports every so often.  The interesting thing was
what they weren't telling us.  The helicopter traffic report mentioned places
that were "blocked by protesters", but the news had no mention of this, or
what was being protested.

Mark

I think Mystery started and then Andy hit the nail on the head.
The whole process from top to bottom is SYMPATHETIC with police.
These people work together all the time.

Out of 400 jurors (in Simi Valley); 4 of them were black.  2 were
selected to be jurors but the defense team sucessfully challenged
and had them removed them from the jury.

Oh yeah one other thing.  Funny how old George after his 1st morning 
cup of coffee says "the judicial system has worked" and then by lunch
time he's changed his tune (to avoid seeming to be made of stainless
steel) to "promise a complete investigation".

Well let's just say that 1 year ago; the FEDS started a complete 
investigation.  They dropped the ball and never published a report
(were they waiting for the verdict themselves? .. I dunno) but they
started an investigatin a year ago.  (Thornburgh started it...then
I imagine his unsuccessful bid for a senate seat in PA got in the way).

RE                      <<< Note 251.41 by LANDO::HAPGOOD >>>

>(were they waiting for the verdict themselves? .. I dunno) but they
>started an investigatin a year ago.  (Thornburgh started it...then
>I imagine his unsuccessful bid for a senate seat in PA got in the way).


 GHWB did say yesterday that they are going to "speed up" the investigation.
 Which probably means "Oh s*it, we better make it look like we are doing some-
 thing"




 

	yesterday when I woke up and heard the news, I was first
	stunned by the verdict and then sickened by the subsequent
	violence.  But I understood the anger, I shared it.
	
	today, after bombarding myself by watching and reading
	media reports of what is going on in LA, I am at a loss
	to understand WHY they are destroying their own 
	neighborhoods and places of business.  I know a riot
	doesn't make sense anyways but it feels like they've
	all just gone nuts.  Even though I wouldn't condone
	it, I would be able to understand acts of violence
	against symbols of the injustice - police cars, police
	headquarters, things like that.  But why the awful
	personal violence against innocent people, why destroy
	the businesses that help sustain their lives.  They
	are taking out their anger on other victims and probably
	other sympathizers.  I can't understand it.

	Debess

    i didn't hear Mystery say that the system was too sympathetic to the
    police...  i heard him something more to the effect of "something
    appears to be wrong but i'm reserving judgement since i don't have all
    the facts!"
    
    lot's of interesting stuff on the tube last night and this morning...
    protests have turned up all over the place with violence and looting in 
    San Franciso, Atlanta, and now Seattle...  :^(
    
    saw a couple of interviews with the prosecuting attorney and a juror...
    the juror was stating essentially that the prosecuting attorney's
    did not present enough evidence to convince beyond a shadow of a doubt
    that the cops were acting outside the "prescribed limits of thier
    authority" (which is essential in this case...  if the police were
    acting within the scope of thier jobs they are NOT criminally liable...
    and given that these were criminal charges-as opposed to the
    "violations of civil liberties" that the feds are now talking about-
    it's a crucial point)...  the prosecuting attorney was asking the
    american people if this juror was actually aawake during the
    proceedings...  seems to me he couldn't have done a very good job 
    if he couldn't convince the jury...   the juror points out that
    what people seem to be overlooking in this case that Rodney WAS in
    violation of the law when he was pulled over, and of the three people
    in the car he was the ONLY one who resisted arrest and that the others
    were treated much differently by complying with officers
    instructions...
    
    the general consensus on tv last night seemed to be that the majority
    of the looters and rioters didn't give a hoot one way or the other
    about the trial...  they're either just caught up the mass hysteria
    or taking advantage of an opportunity to go nuts and "grab for all the
    gusto they can"...
    
    i'm gettting a little sick of everyone calling everyone else racist
    here...  the cops are racist because Rodney is black...  the jury is
    racist because they let the cops off...  and even prominent citizens
    and govt officials are running off about racism in the same sentence
    where they admit to not being privvy to all the facts in the case!!!!
    argh!!!!!
    
    i agree with George...  the system has worked...  maybe not well, but
    it has worked...  and it's not over yet either, since the feds are now
    pushing the civil rights angle of it now...
    
    the only person i come out of all this with much respect for are the 
    few nameless volunteers i saw on tv going through the streets talking
    to people and explaining how none of this is productive and that they
    are trashing their own homes and neighborhoods...  "calm down-be a
    helpful constructive force for change"...  all the other name
    calling and head shaking and hand wringing is so much wasted action...
    
					da ve

    
    One of the commentators I watched this morning talked about the trials 
    that occurred in the south during the 50's & 60's.  And since many of
    you will say you weren't born yet or aware yet (have you since then
    been under a rock and not reading about this stuff?) I refer you to
    the movie 'Mississippi Burning' which was a fairly accurate portrayal of
    what happened.  I know one of the families whose son was murdered
    during that time.  like I said the portrayal was *fairly* accurate. 
    The FBI was not a benevolent partner as shown in the film - but I
    digress.
    
    Anyway - the  commentator likened the southern case to the LA/King case
    in that the perpetrators were tried once on charges similar to what we
    just saw in LA - amazingly acquitted by an all white jury (after all
    the perps were white - is the reasoning) and then the feds got involved 
    for reasons which escape us all now and tried the guys on violations 
    of civil rights and some other stuff and got them that way.  too little
    too late but at least it was something.
    
    I believe we haven't seen the last of this.  there are too many
    people of all colors .. but who have a commonality in the fact that 
    they are disenfranchised from the system.  whether it be by color or 
    education or employment, etc - many of them see the issues which bind 
    them to be issues which the government chooses to ignore.   These
    people may no longer be willing to 'let the system work' for them -
    they've tried that for decades and racist behaviour and the havenot
    gulf has deepened.  Some will stay and fight and perhaps die, some will
    drop out in some way but over all the common person looses spirit
    and strength ... a possible final outcome encouraged by the government. 
    
    'and the all white jury agreeeeeeeeeeed'
    Carol
     

    
    Uhhhh.....what da ve said.
    
    The violence seems to be the act of criminals.....not necessarily the
    act of people 'fed up with the system.'  They're destroying their own
    neighborhoods.
    
    It looked like police brutality on the film.....but all along I've
    suspected that the media has presented us with a tainted picture.  All
    I can say is "I don't know what happened....and I can't make a
    judgement on this based on what I've seen or heard."
    
    What bothers me is the "expected verdict."  Obviously, this jury didn't
    have a choice of saying 'guilty' or 'not guilty'......they were
    expected to say 'guilty', because of what we all saw.  Of course, the
    make up of the jury is for sure suspicious.....why an almost all-white
    jury with no black jurors?!?!?
    
    All I can say is that I don't trust our media to give us a clear
    picture, whether they are taking a conservative OR liberal stance.
    
    Hogan

I have a lot of emotions that run through me over this, and some are in 
conflict with each other.  I have seen US congresspeople coming on TV and 
saying the verdict is "wrong."  How can anyone who did not sit through the 
SEVEN WEEKS of testimony make that assesment?  The cynical side of me sees 
certain congresspeople grabbing the political side of this and letting that 
drive their actions (I guess I should expect that).  But then I think about 
what I did see, although it is not a complete picture, I see Rodney King 
taking a beating that no one should have to endure.  I have got anger, 
sympathy, regret, shame, bewilderment, and disbelief all running through my 
veins at the same time.

Perhaps the most striking thing about all this is the polarization between 
races.  Will there ever be a day when black/white/red/yellow/green/purple 
will not be the most important or frequent adjectives when talking about 
PEOPLE??  Sigh...

Scott

    
    More on media...
    
    Would there have been a single fire, or killing, or looting if the King
    tapes weren't shown on media to the general public?
    
    I hear a lot (not only from JC) about media being too powerful, and I 
    believe its true...  But powerful can be good at times too.  
    
    No, I didn't see and hear ALL of the facts that the jury did, but what
    I did see (and it was admitted as evidence) was a video of six or so
    armed police men beating a man senselessly way past ANY point of posing
    them a serious threat.  Nothing that led up to this point (unseen by
    me) could have ever provoked the police's actions such that I would
    defend them, not even if he shot one of them dead.
    
    He was no longer a serious threat, and they clubbed him like a baby
    seal.  My eyes saw it.  My perceptions were formed by the media.
    
    WOW...   Powerful
    
    Tree 

Sometimes no explanations are needed.

Does a picture tell a story?  Sometimes.

When Rodney King was laying on the ground with a bashed in face, a broken
arm and a TAZER attached to his butt getting the hell shocked out of him - 
as other policemen came in to take turns kicking and hitting him with clubs 
as he layed there (while a cast of many watched) ... what did a juror say?  
It was all up to him - all he had to do was put his hands up.  That he
was in control of the situation (effectively that 20 cops weren't in control
but RK was???) 

yah right.  I don't think they could come up with any sort of explanation
to rationalize that behaviour.  that's why everyone is ourtraged.

I admit to having seen nothing but the video but what I saw was enough.

As for violence; it's wrong and I feel sorry for the decent people that
have to live there in years to come.   

Gotta remember that cops aren't supposed to deal out the punishment in 
this society and that's just a small piece of what this is all about.

    I'm cross-posting this (with permission of course!) from SOAPBOX.
    IMO it points out the UTTER irresponsibility the news media has
    displayed throughout this entire incident. I hold them to blame
    for all the rioting in America's cities now.
    
    
----forwarded 

I watched most of the trial on Court TV and learned alot about the case
that didn't come out in any of the news reports tonight.  It was not as
"open and shut" as it appears if you only look at the clip most of the
news programs show.  I think the media is responsible for some serious    
misunderstandings underlying the violence we're seeing.

The tape runs 81 seconds but the first part, where King attacks the police,
has rarely been shown.  Even tonight, one news program reported the tape
runs 60 seconds and gave the impression King was a motorist dragged out
of his car and beaten for no good reason.

In fact, King was stopped for driving at speeds in excess of 115 MPH and
"weaving."  I think most people know he led police on a chase and was 
later tested at over twice the legal limit for alcohol.

Initially, King and his two passengers assumed the "felony arrest position",
face down on the ground, arms out.  Police regard drivers who evade them
as "suspected felons" and take extra precautions.  Testimony showed there
were very few cases of evaders who did not have outstanding felony warrants.

Without warning, King springs to his feet and attacks officer Powell. This
happens in 6 frames on the tape and is called a "super human feat" by the
defense.  It causes the officers to believe King was under the influence
of PCP.  Powell responds by striking King with his baton, possibly in the
face, possibly on the shoulder.

This is important because the procesecution needs a baton blow to the head 
at this point to sustain its "Assault with a Deadly Weapon" charge.  All
other blows on the tape can be seen and all are to the buttocks, legs and
kidney areas - possibly assault but not deadly.  Apparently the jury 
accepted the defense that this blow was purely self defense.

Koon then fires a taser but it has no effect on King other than to make
his "cheeks vibrate" and cause him to "roar like a bear."  The second 
taser shot has no effect either and Powell strikes King again with his
baton.  King goes down but then rises up and reaches for his wasteband.

This brings on the first flurry of blows and King goes back down.  The 
tape shows the officers stop hitting King when he lies still and start
hitting him again whenever he rises to his hands and knees.  At one point
he rolls over on his back as is still but the officers keep hitting him,
claiming his hand is near his waistband again.  That is not apparent on
the video.

Eventually, King raises his hands over his head, the beatings stop and he
is handcuffed.  Powell struck a total of 45 blows although 10 to 15 of
them miss.  Winds strikes King 11 times.  Bressineo (sp) never hits King
but does kick him, claiming he was trying to push his (King's) shoulders
down.  It's hard to tell even when the tape is played in slow motion but
the jury obviously believed it.  Koon doesn't strike King at all but 
was the commanding officer.

Other interesting things not reported:
Most of the "police" seen "standing around" on the tape were, in fact,
School District Police not trained to deal with violent suspects.  LAPD
policy is that they would not engage such a suspect.

Some of the LAPD police on the scene  but not participating were assigned 
to guard the two passengers in Kings car.

Doctors at the hospital found King "combative" and required that be be 
strapped down.  When he was later transfered to the drug treatment center,
(they thought he was on PCP but tests later were negative), doctors would
not let ambulance attendents transport him because he was "violent." Police
took him in a sier.         

Race really didn't enter into the trial much.  In the first place, none of
the charges had a racial component.  Assault with a deadly weapon does not
consider motive (ie, racisim) so not much time was spent on that.

The two racial remarks were "...(our last call) was like something out of
'Gorillas in the Mist" and "I wonder who be the parties."  It's doubtful
the gorillas remark could stand up as a racial slur even as a hate crime
and the "parties" remark brought out quite an interesting point.

In order to accept that as a racial slur, one would have to believe blacks
had difficulty conjugating the verb "to be" which is a racist belief.  The
prosecuter (a black man) made that point and just left it to the jury saying
something like "if you believe the language 'who be the parties' identifies
a certain race then this remark is racist."

The single outstanding charge is "Use of Excessive Force Under Color of 
Authority" against Powell.  He will surely be re-tried.  All four officers
will be tried again on Federal charges and also face a civil suit by
King. (A man who obviously saw millions of dollars evaporate and looked
like it when he was interviewed.)  For what its worth, 3 of the 4 have
lost their homes and are financially devastated.  Koon has a book deal.

    Latest I heard is that Bush is calling for a new trial, doing whatever
    he can legally do within the judicial rules (like I don't think he can
    get the Supreme Court involved yet).  I saw the beginning of the
    Arsenio Hall show last night - instead of his usual splashy show, this
    was done on a sparse set, just him and the mayor of LA fielding
    questions.  The riots are more than just race riots - there's too many
    looters just taking advantage of the situation and doing even more
    damage.
    
    They even have a looting system worked out - first group smashes the
    windows/doors and takes off, second group takes the major valuables,
    third group takes what's left and torches the place.
    
    Scott
    

RE:  thanks Dave for the post

You can view this thing from two angles.  This is definately pro-police side.

>In fact, King was stopped for driving at speeds in excess of 115 MPH and
>"weaving."  I think most people know he led police on a chase and was 
>later tested at over twice the legal limit for alcohol.

Good reason for a beating IMO (sarcastically) how bout you?

I never agreed with assault with a deadly weapon charge anyhow.  I just
think there was a misuse of force.

As for what happens after Rodney King gets up?  Well we all see it on
tape.  That's what this is all about?  You either think it's excessive
or you think it's ok.  This article seems to think it;s ok.

FWIW,  if I was being beaten and shocked I probably would try to run for
my life.  Not lay down.  I saw King laying down and being kicked while he
was on his belly.  Did you?  that article seems to imply that it never
happend.

>tape shows the officers stop hitting King when he lies still and start
>hitting him again whenever he rises to his hands and knees.  At one point
>he rolls over on his back as is still but the officers keep hitting him,
>claiming his hand is near his waistband again.  That is not apparent on
>the video.

This is the part we get to see.  Does it seem right in ANY context? (that's
the basic question).

>Eventually, King raises his hands over his head, the beatings stop and he
>is handcuffed.  Powell struck a total of 45 blows although 10 to 15 of

I believe this should read "the beatings **eventually** stop" which is what
is shown.  Can a cop say to you, "put your hands on your head or I'll beat
you like a step child until you do".  NO!

>Koon has a book deal.

Ya, and as he walked out of the courtroom he said when asked about the court's
decision, "you can read it in the book".  

Nobody ever said Rodney was an angel .. still don't make all this right.

just my opinions of course,
bob

re:     <<< Note 251.48 by LJOHUB::RILEY "Without a slip of the toungue..." >>>

    
       
   > No, I didn't see and hear ALL of the facts that the jury did, but what
   > I did see (and it was admitted as evidence) was a video of six or so
   > armed police men beating a man senselessly way past ANY point of posing
   > them a serious threat.  Nothing that led up to this point (unseen by
   > me) could have ever provoked the police's actions such that I would
   > defend them, not even if he shot one of them dead.
    
    
  First let me say that I'm not replying to Tree, just using his words
to formulate a reply.

   Second, I feel they (cops) were totally out of line and went well
beyond using reasonable force. But after seeing a piece of the video
that the public had not seen prior to last night, in a way I can 
understand why the cops went overboard. I am not saying they were justified
just that Human nature played a strong role in it ie; letting a position
of authority go to ones head. ("hey I'm a cop I'm above the law! :-( )

  Anyway, some early footage showed they while the officers were trying to
peacefull cuff R. King he tossed FOUR officers off his back. I'm sure
that even prior to that R king was probably so beligerent that they needed
four officers to subdue him. Then of course the excessive beating started,
so that's what the public ended up seeing. 

 Again let me state that I in no way feel the cops were justified.


re: da ve a few back.

   Some really great points! Some of which I would echo.


 Shawn
 

    
    
(posted without permission)    

            <<< POBOX::POBOX244:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BLACKNOTES.NOTE;2 >>>
================================================================================
Note 576.46              Rodney King trial: "Not Guilty"                46 of 53
ROYALT::ASHE "The roof�, the roof is on fire..."    416 lines   1-MAY-1992 09:50
                  -< Articles: Reactions from coast to coast >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Article 7 of clari.news.hot.rodney_king:
Subject: Quiet night in Atlanta


	ATLANTA (UPI) -- A curfew helped calm rioting by young blacks enraged
over the Rodney King verdict 2,000 miles away but National Guard troops
stayed ready for deployment if violence flared again.
	Mayor Maynard Jackson, vowing that ``downtown will be secure,''
imposed an 11 p.m.-to-5 a.m. curfew for Thursday night but said he might
extend it depending on Friday's circumstances. 
	Gov. Zell Miller ordered National Guard troops into the city but
there was no indication they would be deployed. Downtown businesses,
some with boarded windows after the afternoon onslaught, planned to re-
open. That included the Underground Atlanta amusement complex that
closed early after being one of the mob's first targets. 
	The arrests from the violence, which started as a march on the
capitol, topped 300 and swelled the city jail population to twice its
normal size. Some of the newer inmates had to sleep on the floor or in
the gym.
	The melee was an angry response to the acquittal of four white Los
Angeles police officers in the Rodney King beating case. The black
youths, in small and large groups, smashed downtown windows, looted
stores and attacked whites. At least 41 people were reported injured,
including a Stone Mountain man said to have been pulled from his car and
beaten. He was in critical condition with a serious head wound. 
	The violence seemed to subside at sundown and it was quiet overnight.
Students at Morehouse College planned to march on the capitol again late
Friday morning. 
	The violence began at the end of a march to City Hall and the capitol
from the Atlanta University Center. A group of about 100 youths broke
away from the march and, after overturning a car and damaging several
others at the capitol, smashed about $10,000 worth of windows at the
Fulton County Government Center.
	The marauding youths swept through Underground Atlanta and ranged up
Peachtree Street to Macy's, where a group rushed inside smashing glass
showcases, knocking store displays to the ground and sending clerks and
customers scurrying. 
	On Broad Street, near the shattered windows of Kessler's Department
Store, a young white man lay unconscious on the sidewalk, the back of
his head and neck covered with blood. A black youth stood over him,
holding a sign that said ``Justice 4 Rodney.''



Article 10 of clari.news.hot.rodney_king:
Subject: Bush to decide on sending federal troops to California

	WASHINGTON (UPI) -- President Bush summoned top administration
officials to the White House Friday to consider a request by California
Gov. Pete Wilson for federal troops to help quell the rioting in his
state.
	Bush met in the Oval Office with Gen. Colin Powell, chairman of the
Joint Chiefs of Staff, Deputy Defense Secretary Donald J. Atwood,
Attorney General William Barr, FBI Director William Sessions and Defense
Department officials to assess the situation in California, which was
described as ``explosive'' by Health and Human Services Secretary Louis
Sullivan.
	The rioting began Wednesday evening following the acquittal of four
white policemen in the videotaped beating of Rodney King, a black
parolee, who was stopped for a traffic violation.
	Bush made a brief appearance at the All American Workout outside the
White House and told the gathering clad in sweat suits that he was
holding the meeting ``to discuss a situation that troubles the whole
nation.''
	Bush also said he would meet later in the morning with civil rights
leaders from across the country to discuss ``our common commitment to
civil justice, national tranquility and the rule of law.''
	White House chief of staff Samuel Skinner said that Wilson telephoned
the White House at 4:15 a.m. EDT with a request for ``federal support''
and said he expected Bush would be speaking to Wilson after or during
the morning meeting with top advisers.
	``We'll be looking at our options,'' said Skinner.
	White House press secretary Marlin Fitzwater said ``we've got to wait
and see'' when asked whether troops would be dispatched to quell the
violence, which has claimed at least 31 lives in Los Angeles and has
spread to other cities across the nation.
	Sullivan, who was participating in the physical fitness demonstration
outside the White House, told reporters that he expected to have a 
``very good discussion'' with civil rights leaders, including NAACP
leader Benjamin Hooks and John Jacobs of the Urban League.
	Sullivan declined to pre-empt what Bush would say and whether he had
any new initiatives to announce, but he said that the objective of the
meeting was to assure that ``justice ... and law and order will prevail.
''
	``We're going to give it everything we've got,'' Sullivan said.
	He said he expected Bush ``is certainly going to show leadership'' in
the efforts to resolve the situation.
	Asked whether he thought California officials had been slow to react
to the mood after the verdict was announced Wednesday, Sullivan said, 
``I think the situation exploded so rapidly that the officials responded
as rapidly as they could.''
	White House aides monitored the unfolding violence throughout the
night.
	Bush plans to campaign in California on Thursday and Friday in
advance of the state's June 20 primary. Skinner said there were no
present plans to cancel that trip.
	On Thursday, the president said he was ``sickened'' by the images
emanating from Los Angeles depicting ``helpless victims pulled from
vehicles and assaulted.''
	Later in the day, Bush, who had appealed for calm, said in remarks to
the Ohio Broadcasters Association that the mayhem following the verdicts
was ``purely criminal, was outrageous.''
	``Last night was tragic for our country,'' he said. ``No one watching
the television coverage of the violence yesterday afternoon and evening
could have any reaction other than revulsion and pain.''
	``Mob brutality, the total loss of respect for human life was
sickeningly sad,'' he said.
	Bush met earlier with Barr to discuss possible prosecution of the
police officers on civil rights violations. He also spoke with Wilson.
	The case has taken on some political overtones, with civic leaders
leaning on Bush to take sweeping actions to tame the violence and
condemn racism, which he did on Thursday.
	Gov. Bill Clinton, the Arkansas Democrat who will likely face Bush in
the fall election, said the president should have more forcefully
condemned the verdict.
	Clinton's comment drew Fitzwater's wrath. He told reporters, ``I
think it's outrageous for political candidates to start playing politics
in a situation when people are being killed in urban areas of the
country. What in the world are they thinking about?''
	Bush said the verdict ``has left us all with a deep sense of personal
frustration and anguish. Yet it is important that we respect the law and
the legal processes that have been brought to bear in the case.''
	In Columbus, he spoke out more forcefully against the violence.
	He remarked about the ``frustration all of us felt seeing helpless
victims pulled from vehicles and assaulted -- it was hard not to turn our
eyes away.''
	``But we must not turn our eyes away,'' he said. ``And we must keep
on working to create a climate of understanding and tolerance, and
condemn a climate of bigotry and fear.''



Article 12 of clari.news.hot.rodney_king:
Subject: Boston reacts to Los Angeles King verdict
	BOSTON (UPI) -- Boston police kept its day shift on overtime overnight
to deal with any potential violence in the wake of the riots that have
wracked Los Angeles and other cities because a jury found four white
police officers innocent of beating a black motorist.
	Police reported no incidents in Boston as other cities around the
nation experienced incidents of violence that grew out of the verdict in
the video-taped beating of motorist Rodney King in Los Angeles.
	Hundreds of college students marched through the city late Thursday,
tying up traffic as they chanted ``no justice, no peace'' as they walked
to Northeastern University and then back to City Hall Plaza where they
joined 10,000 at a rally for ousted Haitian President Jean-Bertrand
Aristide.
	About 700 police officers were on hand to respond to any acts of
violence in the city, but none were reported, officials said. Boston
last experienced race riots in 1968.
	State and city officials and community leaders called for calm.
	Boston Mayor Raymond Flynn Thursday urged President Bush to create a
commission on urban neglect to address longstanding problems that led to
the violent reaction to the verdicts. He said that in any city in the
country, ``anger at injustice and national abandonment can turn to
tragedy.''
	``We like to say it couldn't happen here,'' Flynn said, ``but it
happened in Los Angeles.''
	Lt. Gov. Paul Cellucci called the King verdict ``unbelievable,''
echoing expressions of disbelief that resounded throughout the city.
	``This verdict sends a very bad message,'' Cellucci said. ``I think
we want to make it clear that here in Massachusetts this kind of
behavior by law enforcement people will not be tolerated.''
	Boston Police officers also said they were surprised by the verdict.
	One white officer on duty in Dudley Square, who asked that his name
not be used, said he was surprised, but said beating a downed suspect
was not something he could do.
	``I play by the Marquess of Queensberry rules. If they are down you
don't hit them,'' he said.
	A former reporter for the Middlesex News who was working for The
Boston Globe in Los Angeles was shot four times Wednesday by a gang of
people following the King verdict.
	Jeff Kramer, 30, said he drove into a rundown business district in
Los Angeles when a group swarmed around his vehicle, smashing the
windows and demanding he get out. He said he refused and one of his
assailants hit him hard in the face.
	``As my assailants tried to pull me out, I felt as if I was going to
die,'' he said.
	``I figured my best chance was to pretend that he had just knocked me
out and I slumped forward in the car and played dead,'' Kramer said in a
special report to the Globe Friday morning.
	``That made it even more impossible for them to take off my seatbelt.
So in frustration one of them pulled a gun out and fired several rounds
into my left leg,'' he said.
	Kramer said that when the assailants backed off, ``I made a run for
it. I did a U-turn and headed down a side street.'' He said there were
more gunshots and he was hit again, this time in the back of the
shoulder.
	Kramer said he drove to a tree-lined street and saw some children
playing. He asked for their help. Eventually, he said, some black
residents helped him into a woman's car and they drove him to get
medical help.
	Kramer was reported in stable condition Friday in Calfornia Medical
Center in Los Angeles.
	The Justice Department Thursday dispatched former U.S. Attorney for
Massachusetts Wayne Budd to Los Angeles. Budd, who took over his new job
last month, among other things is in charge of the department's Civil
Rights division.
	He told reporters that he was going to Los Angeles to investigate 
``whether or not there is a (civil rights) case to be made federally on
the officers involved'' in beating King.



Article 14 of clari.news.hot.rodney_king:
Subject: Some violence, mostly peaceful reaction to trial
	Police reported some violence against white motorists in Gary and
some beatings in an Indianapolis high school ascribed to blacks'
frustration with the acquittal of four Los Angeles policeman in the
beating of a black man.
	The trouble in Gary began Thursday night with reports of tires being
set ablaze to stop cars passing a housing project on the city's
southeast side, Gary Police Detective William Burns said Friday.
	Burns said the trouble was in an area of three or four blocks, where
there also were reports of people coming out of houses, pelting cars
with rocks and running back inside.
	The victims were white and the perpetrators black, Burns said. He
said there were no arrests reported. At least one motorist was treated
for head injuries from a thrown rock, Burns said.
	There also were reports of some violence just outside Gary, near an
overpass into Hobart, he said.
	In Indianapolis, students in two high schools reacted in contrasting
ways. Three white students were assaulted after a forum organized by
black pupils with officials' approval at Broad Ripple High School. Broad
Ripple Principal Larry McCloud said his school took a risk in allowing
the forum, but felt it was the right move to let students share their
feelings.
	Remarks at the Broad Ripple forum were a mixture of conciliatory
statements and divisive comments.
	At Lawrence North High about 400 of the 1,600 students took part in a
peaceful multi-racial rally. There were conflicting reports about
whether anybody was hurt in disturbances at North Central High School.
	Also in Indianapolis, somebody hung a dummy dressed in blue with a
big foil badge along an east side street. The names of the four
acquitted LAPD officers were pinned to the dummy.
	A dummy took a beating at a rally led by black Indiana University
students in Bloomington. They beat the effigy to dramatize what happened
to Rodney King. The rally leaders also collected petitions from people
opposed to the verdict in the police trial. They said they would send
the petitions to concerned public officials -- perhaps even President
Bush.



Article 16 of clari.news.hot.rodney_king:
Subject: Riot damages top $200 million

	LOS ANGELES (UPI) -- With up to three fires breaking out every minute,
mostly in mini-malls and small businesses, damage in the Los Angeles
riot was heading steadily into the hundreds of millions of dollars, and
some businessmen were guarding their stores with machineguns that few
doubted they were prepared to use.
	Fires set by looters in commercial districts stretching over miles in
mostly poor neighborhoods burned 300 buildings to the ground and caused
more than $200 million of damage, a city official said Thursday.
	Warren O'Brien, general manager of the city's building and safety
department, said his staff has estimated that the damages after two days
of arson ranged between $200 million and $250 million.
	At least 17 people died in the violence, and the city Fire Department
responded to more than 1,500 reports of structure fires. Many fires were
left to burn unattended, either because the buildings were too far gone,
or the area was too dangerous for firefighters, three of whom have been
wounded by gunfire from snipers.
	Small retail stores were a major target following the acquittal of
four white police officers in the beating a black man, Rodney King. The
looters, mostly teenagers and young adults, but often including whole
families, prowled through South Central Los Angeles, breaking windows
and setting fires, starting late Wednesday afternoon after the
acquittal.
	At a Sav-On store, about 20 police officers formed a protective line
in front of the store after rousting dozens of looters from the
business. No more looters were going in the front, but in the back,
several looters drove pickup trucks up to a loading dock and simply
emptied the building.
	``This is just senseless,'' said Michael Stennis, the owner of the
12-outlet Golden Bird fried chicken restaurant, as he watched his store
on Vermont Avenue go up in flames on Thursday morning. ``We've been in
the community since 1953 and we hire 350 employees from the community.''
	Stennis said the violent response may stem from anger last fall when
a judge gave probation rather than jail time to a Korean grocer
convicted of voluntary manslaughter in the death of a black teenager,
Latasha Harlins. ``Now people just feel as if it's all right for them to
get something for free,'' he said.
	At the Olympic Swap Meet in Koreatown, near downtown, a group of
Korean-American merchants lined up their expensive sedans in front of
the store, opened the doors in an interlocking barricade and turned on
the lights.
	Behind the protective barricade, the men carried pistols, shotguns
and rifles through the night. A security guard with an Uzi-like weapon
roamed the roof.
	One merchant said an employee had his head blown off by a shotgun
blast fired from a passing car.
	Stores burned down or looted included Sav-On, Thrifty Drugs, Viva
supermarket, Footlocker, Wherehouse, Newberry, Western Swap Meet, Chief
Auto Parts, Winchell's Donuts and Pep Boys.
	``We have two stores burned to the ground, one store that's burning
and four that are being looted,'' said Christopher Bement, a spokesman
for Thrifty, which operates 46 stores in South Central Los Angeles. 
``Eleven stores were closed and some of them are being vandalized.''
	Bement said most of the damage was coming from ``hooligans and
hoodlums,'' rather than the community at large. ``They're making it
miserable for everyone else,'' he said.
	The violence occurred in some of the same areas scorched by the
August 1965 Watts riots, in which 34 people were killed, more than 1,000
were injured and $200 million in property went up in flames.
	``It's ironic that we're being hit so hard, because we had three
stores burned down during the Watts riots,'' Bement said. ``We were the
first store to go back in so that people could get prescription service.
''
	Jack Kyser, an economist for the Los Angeles County Economic
Development Corp., said the South Central area had seen an infusion of
retail businesses recently after many years of slow growth following the
Watts riots. Some areas that were hardest hit in the 1965 fires, such as
``Charcoal Alley'' at 103rd Street and Central Avenue, never fully
recoverd, he noted.
	``What's happened in the last two days is really sad because you had
a consensus building in the city that we needed to get more retail into
South Central, and this will really set back those plans,'' Kyser said.
``It looks as if there are a lot of gang members taking advantage of the
situation.''
	Kyser said major firms will probably return to the area fairly
quickly, but noted that smaller operators may not be able to rebuild at
all.
	The riots have come at a time when city officials and business
leaders had been trying to stem the tide of businesses leaving the
region because of the high costs of doing business. They had launched an
``L.A. Means Business'' campaign earlier this year, pointing out the
advantages of remaining in the area.
	Arthur Shaw, an economist with the Greater Los Angeles Chamber of
Commerce, said, ``It is going to really hurt investment in the area. It
was already very capital-shy because of the Watts riots.''



Article 17 of clari.news.hot.rodney_king:
Subject: Iowans protest L.A. police trial verdict
	DES MOINES, Iowa (UPI) -- Iowans are expressing outrage over the
acquittal this week of four police officers accused of beating a black
motorist.
	More than 200 people gathered on the University of Iowa Pentacrest
Thursday to protest the verdict. The two hour rally was emotional at
times with various speakers reacting with shock and dismay.
	``How can someone sit there and see that video and not convict those
policemen?'' student Jason Wilson asked.
	The reaction from other Iowa cities was similar.
	``In my opinion it was the wrong decision,'' Waterloo Police Chief
Bernie Koehrsen said. ``The officers should have been found guilty.''
	Cryss Farley, the executive director of the Iowa Civil Liberties
Union, said a citizen review committee is needed to deal with cases of
police misconduct.
	``My official position will no longer be to renounce violence,'' said
Kalonji Saadiq, general manager of radio station KUCB in Des Moines
which serves the black community.
	Police departments in Iowa report that they are taking no extra
precautions in light of the violence in Los Angeles.



Article 18 of clari.news.hot.rodney_king:
Subject: Protesters, looters rampage in Seattle

	SEATTLE (UPI) -- Protesters outraged over the acquittal of four white
Los Angeles police officers in the beating of a black motorist were
joined by looters in a rampage through the downtown Seattle business
district early Friday.
	Store windows were smashed, a few cars were overturned and numerous
fires were set, mostly in dumpsters, in a five-block area.
	Police estimated about 140 people took part in the rampage, which
began at 1 a.m. and ended shortly before dawn. About three-dozen people
were arrested, police said.
	Three people were injured, none seriously, police said. No officers
were injured.
	A police car used by ``Officer Friendly,'' the moniker of the
department's community outreach officer, was burned, authorities said.
	Fire officials said firefighters responded to 45 blazes, double the
usual nightly amount.
	Crowds began gathering at about 1 a.m. Violence broke out shortly
after protesters began marching through streets chanting, ``No justice,
no peace.''
	Many of the demonstrators were expressing outrage over a jury's
decision to acquit four white Los Angeles police officers in the beating
of Rodney King, while police said others taking part in the rampage were
more intent on looting.
	A witness who would not give his name said he saw a mixed-race crowd
chase and attack a white man.
	``About 50 young men - they were black and Hispanic and some whites -
chased a white male down the street, kicking him and tripping him,'' he
said. ``Once they got him down on the ground, they were imitating the
officers in Los Angeles, swinging their arms like nightsticks beating
Rodney King.''
	A passerby, Cal Lane, said he and his wife were driving through the
area when a group of protesters attacked their car.
	``We turned the corner and bang, bang, bang, they were on our car and
beating us,'' Lane said. ``My wife is all cut up.''
	Seattle Mayor Norm Rice said, ``No one likes the situation that they
see,'' as he toured the riot area in a car. The mayor earlier expressed
shock and disappointment over the jury's verdict in the King beating
case.
	A store owner who came downtown to clean up damage said, ``I wasn't
in California. I wasn't one of the people on the jury. Why are they
picking on us?''
	A security guard, who identified herself only as Sally, said she
believed much of the violence was not racially motivated, but rather was
sparked by joblessness and despair.
	``I don't think it matters what race you are,'' she said. ``I think a
lot of people are just upset and frightened.''
	Most of the protesters and looters had left the area by 5 a.m.,
police said, and most of the 60 to 100 officers who'd been sent into the
area had been pulled back.
	``A person asked my what I thought of the Rodney King verdict,''
Officer Arandi Mohammad said. ``I said, 'That was that and this is this,
and we've got to deal with this right now. Two wrongs don't make a
right.'''
	fasbinder edited


    

    
    Lets concentrate on the GOOD things that are happening.
    
    1) The american public is finally getting the message of the 
       desperation faced by people living in America's cities.
    
    2) The public at last is seeing what 12 years of Reagan and Bush
       have done to the US.
    
    3) The public is finally seeing what our government sanctions 
       as appropriate police behavior.
    
    4) The timing is perfect !!!  It's an election year !!
    

    Anyone logged in from San Fran, etc who would give us the straight
    story on whether all the media stories are right on?  We hear bridges
    are closed/business shut down, fires .. etc etc.   how close to the
    whole truth is this?
    
    carol

    Is a Hyundai Excel carrying three passengers (at least one of whom
    weighs over 200 pounds) capable of speeds in excess of 115 mph?
    
    John

    
    NYO facility in New York City is now closing for the day, due to
    reports of riots and violence in the Times Square area in Manhattan.
    
    Trouble is expected around Grand Central Station and maybe Penn
    Station, so management is sending everyone home early.
    
    Gee, off early on a Friday, and all I feel is bummed.   :-(
    
    tom
    

re                     <<< Note 251.56 by MILKWY::SLOMSKI >>>
                  -< Let's Look at the GOOD side of this... >-

    
>    Lets concentrate on the GOOD things that are happening.
>    
>    1) The american public is finally getting the message of the 
>       desperation faced by people living in America's cities.
>    
>    2) The public at last is seeing what 12 years of Reagan and Bush
>       have done to the US.
    
I *hope* this is what the public is seeing.  I hope this doesn't increase
the gap between the races.  I can imagine people out there watching their
TV sets, reading these reports, and thinking that this is further proof
that blacks are inherently violent and criminal in nature.

- Dave

    Well with that said, just be careful out there this weekend, thing
    could get worse but I pray it gets better.....think twice and for God
    sake take care of eachother !
    
    Chris

    Well, I'm logged in Santa Clara and not from SF, so most of the
    information I've got is from the media also.  But I do have more media
    to choose from.
    
    The bay bridge was closed for quite awhile yesterday.  Sounds as if
    that was the result of actions by several hundred UC Berkeley students,
    and went fairly peacefully.  Most of them were hauled away, but even as
    the buses were being taken away, they were shouting, smiling, and
    waving.
    
    Stuff goes downhill from there.  There was rioting & looting both in
    parts of San Francisco, as well as in Berkeley.  SF imposed a curfew
    last night until 6 this morning, though people who were out in
    restaurants etc., weren't forced to leave, but asked to go home as soon as
    they were finished.  Most of the fires were apparently fairly small...
    trash can fires, setting newspaper machines on fire, things like that.
    Looking north out the window right now, I don't see anything but the
    normal smoggy haze, so there shouldn't be any major fires right now.
    
    There are lots of broken windows, especially along Telegraph Ave in
    Berkeley (which isn't really uncommon), and in one area (I forget which)
    of SF.  Some business took preventative maintenance yesterday, and
    started boarding up their windows before they were broken.
    
    A few of the BART stations were closed last night (ones in problem
    areas), but BART itself never stopped.  The cable cars were also
    stopped, as well as a few of the busses.
    
    Listening to the news this morning, I didn't hear a lot about problems
    today. At least one of the SF colleges is closed until monday, but the
    public school system is open.  Haven't heard anything about other schools.
    
    So there's a little more info.  Yup, there is trouble, but nowhere near
    what is going on in LA.

re .56:
    I'm not so sure.
    George Bush's first reactions were 
    to say that the system had worked (!)
    and to praise the LA police chief.
    
    He might as well have been pouring gasoline on the flames!
    
    Bush's actions make me wonder if he WANTS LA to burn...
    to let it get real bad
    so he can move in with the troops & "save the day"...
    Law and Order & all that...
    It has worked before.
    
    Between the riots and the war on drugs,
    he ought to be able to do away with
    what's left of those pesky civil liberties
    and bring us the police state he wants.

    
    Just called Hartford, CT.
    
    Mass demonstration expected 4PM today downtown,
    cops preparing for the worst,
    
    National Guard Already out.
    
    
    

 Sigh....

    
    I am totally depressed.....
    
    :(

    I don't see how George can make himself look good on this one.
    
    re da ve, Hogan, and others,..
    
    	Some want to see the rest of the evidence before passing
    judgement. Thats fine. I've seen enough. Maybe King did attack or
    did resist,.. in which case I can understand a certain amoumt of
    force being used to subdue the guy,... but the amount of force
    used in that video clip is excessive IMHO for any real purpose
    otherthan for the cops to take out their aggressions on someone,..
    and that includes someone on PCP tossing a few cops,... and  hyundai
    	that tops out at 115 mph,.. um,. I think not.
    
    	Anyway,.. if you don't let this incident convince you that our
    civil liberties are in danger,.. whats it gonna take? Are you going
    	to wait until they're beating up n you like that before you
    	'pass judgement' ...
    
    	C'mon...
    
    								/
    
    
    PS
    
    	Everybody wants to know how the jury that watched that video could
    acquit the cops,.. its easy to figure,.. especially after watching
    	on of the jurors try to answer the question..
    
    	THEY WERE AFRAID FOR THEIR LIVES
    
    	The cops are not going to like someone sending them to jail. The
    jury probably feared that what happened to King might happen to them
    if they returned a 'guilty' verdict,.. think about it,. could things
    really be that bad/corrupt? .... 
    	

 Apparantly Rodney King will be making a statement at 5:15 EST today and
 GHWB will be making a speech at 9 EST tonight.

Think I'll go downtown and toss a few brick tonight...

    
    Well, things in New York aren't so bad after all...The reports of
    trouble in Manhattan were not true; there are a few demonstrations
    planned, but right now things are OK (except for the huge traffic
    problems caused by lots of people going home early)
    
    Amazing how rumors spread - on the way out of the office, I heard that
    1) two people were killed in times square in riots 2) the port
    authority bus terminal was closed 3) grand central station was closed
    
    tom

They closed the Bay Bridge in both directions at rush hour last night 
due to protesters in a peaceful demonstration.  It got a bit violent
last night along Market Street.  Some businesses were looted and there
were small fires set in dumpsters.  Mayor of SF imposed a 9pm-6am curfew
last night and tonight.  I think the Jerry show at the Warfield might have
been cancelled for tonight, but it went on last night even though the
curfew was imposed so I'm not really sure how true this rumor is.  The
Warfield is right on Market Street.  

The cops arrested over 1000 people last night.  People arrested were
booked and held at least overnight.  I think the situation is under control
in SF.  Business is pretty much back to normal this morning.  I did hear
that one of the Bart trains was delayed because someone bombed the BART rail.
It must've been a minor bombing if the train was only delayed and not
cancelled.  Be careful, folks, wherever you are.  Civil disobedience is not
fun 8-/.

peace,
t!ng

I was reading the paper last night and it showed a picture of a
demonstration down in San Jose.  The picture showed 3 protesters
arguing over the course of action.  The man on the right and in the
middle were black and the one on the left was white.  The caption
under the picture said that the man in the middle was begging for
calm, the one on the right was urging a peaceful demonstration, and
the one on the left wanted violence 8-/.

Here's an electronic hug for you all:


      H          H           U           U            GGGGGGGGGGG       !!!!
      H          H           U           U           G           G      !  !
      H          H           U           U           G                  !  !
      H          H           U           U           G                  !  !
      HHHHHHHHHHHH           U           U           G         GGGGG    !!!!
      H          H           U           U           G           G  
      H          H           U           U           G           G      !!!!
      H          H           U           U           G           G      !  !
      H          H            UUUUUUUUUUU             GGGGGGGGGGG       !!!!

peace,
t!ng

    Yo Fog, 
    	Don't you live down town?? How many windows are there in your town?
    Or are you just gonna throw bricks across your front yard.
    
    :-):-)
    Geoff

Below is a note in the Womannotes conference from a friend who spent the
weekend helping in the clean-up in LA..

Would be nice to see the networks cover this with a little more depth.




Jim









            <<< IKE22::NOTE$:[NOTES$LIBRARY]WOMANNOTES-V4.NOTE;1 >>>
                        -< Topics of Interest to Women >-
================================================================================
Note 342.60                    The American Dream?                      60 of 60
LAGUNA::THOMAS_TA "like a soul your face will shine" 36 lines   4-MAY-1992 15:54
                              -< I still love LA >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    things I saw during the weekend:
    
    people of all cultures with brooms and shovels helping clean
    up the streets.  an elderly black woman and an elderly korean
    woman holding hands on a bus bench.  an elderly black woman
    that came up to our car and held my hand while she gave us
    directions and then told us about her first day outside since
    the riots.  a gutted gas station with a beautiful framed
    picture of Martin Luther King Jr. hung on it's door frame.
    a Korean peace march.  a traffic jam at AME church caused
    by so many people bringing food and tools for the clean
    up crews.  a postman directing traffic.  a man walking 
    round to the clean up crews with boxes of cookies he
    had made to help.  someone giving pizza and drinks to
    to the civilians directing traffic.  children with
    plastic shovels and buckets cleaning sidewalks.  a homeless
    woman offering to share her unbrella with a man guarding
    his burned out store.  people cheering each other.
    national guardsmen shyly smiling and waving back.  a woman
    bringing ice and water from her home to people in the welfare
    line at the post office.  the homeless people gathered
    together by my friend Eddie who wanted to help clean
    up.  hundreds of smoldering buildings. the guardian angels
    offering transportation to people stranded.  lots
    of smiles. lots of thank yous.  the old american indian man
    who gave me a pint of Hagen Das "for my nerves."  
    
    Those are my notes from the drive around the city between
    clean ups.
    
    with love,
    chey
    
    oh yeah.. and Eddie balling out the newstations for not covering the
    story %-).                                     
    

    	as in the 60s when thing were going crazy and the protests and riots
    was sometimes a daily event....the music artist of the time wrote and
    preformed songs reflecting the times, the feelings and the tragedies
    that occured around this country (and world)....Well Tom Petty & The
    Heartbreakers sat down Wednesday night wrote a song ,recorded the song
    in his home studio to tape and in this time of high-tec stuff beemed it 
    up to the stars and around the country...the song "Peace in L.A." 
    
    	If you have not heard this song yet I'll tell you it has a slight
    John Lennon sound (Cold Turkey comes to mind) but words reflecting the
    sights and sound of the LA riots.....
    
    Chris

RE: Petty

Pretty good song, I heard it yesterday.  Although the songs are nothing alike 
musically speaking, the first thing I though of was CSNY "Ohio."  Petty often 
writes songs about life in California, too bad he had to write this one...

Scott

I've heard the song a couple of times.  It's really neat ... if you listen
carefully you can hear police/ambukance/fire sirens in the background. Wonder
if they were real?  ;^/  I heard that the song won't be commercially released
at all which is a minor bummer.  I was thinking if a percentage of the proceeds
were to go to a rebuilding effort it'd be great, but I am sure Petty has his
reasons.  I mean in a way, here is a song he wrote in a night because he was
so upset about what was going on around him, he'd probably rather not be 
reminded of the whole scene.  Who knows.  Either way, hats off to Tom Petty!

    Re: Real sirens?
    
    I thought Tom Petty was a Floridian

Man I'm behind in notes!  Over 500!

re: 115 MPH

This is a BS lie.  Ain't no way that car could have gone that fast with
those people in it unless it was souped up.

re: Jury

The hispanic woman, according to the globe, prayed and prayed for a conviction
on Powell (I think it was him) and the whites would not go along with her.
She said she was under intense pressure by the other members of the jury to
not deliver a guilty verdict.  

with most of the jury people having done some sort of military thing in their
lives, i can understand the verdict they delivered - the botherhood of 
enforcement at work.

    
    re: 79
    
    re: 115 MPH ... 
    Absolutely right - no Hyundai ever went 115 mph with three large people
    in it.  LAPD said 115 mph because they thought it would justify some of
    their crazed reaction.
    
    Also John Shep observed that a Hyundai would not go 115 MPH if it were
    dropped off a bridge!   :-)  :-) :-)
    
    c

    re Lisa
    
    	Ya know,.. it sux and all that, but even releasing the song for
    charitable reasons has strings attached,..like production/promotion
    costs etc. He probably just wanted to just sing for Peace and not
    deal with all the hassles of a production. It would be nice to 
    put money towards the rebuilding,.. but before perhaps throwing
    money at a situation that may not yet be completely over it might
    behoove us to heal the hearts and minds of the people first, and I
    think thats what Tom wanted to do.  If we rebuild the infrastructure,
    but don't fix teh social conditions, whats to say it won't all burn
    again?
    
    							/hopeful
    

re .80

>    in it.  LAPD said 115 mph because they thought it would justify some of
>    their crazed reaction.

No doubt the same reason for the bogus reference to PCP.

Another interesting thing that the Hispanic juror said was that most of the
other jurors seemed to have already decided that King was guilty before they
began deliberating.  One juror said King "deserved" the beating.

Doesn't seem to be much justice in having a brain-dead jury.

    re: .81
    
    I absolutely agree, treat the illness not only the symptoms!
    
    

slash - I'm not sure what you saw in my note but I am one of the first people
to get on the "treat the cause not the symptom" soapbox.  That is not what I
meant at all!  All I really meant that maybe more good could come out of it
then an occasional listen on the radio if it were to be marketted such that
a portion of the *profits* (gees, how could I forget THIS word?) were set
up to go to the rebuilding efforts.  But then again I am not Tom Petty and
I don't know his reasons for not wanting to release the song.  Maybe the
message is too personal and special to him - of which he is certainly entitled.

Lisa

    
    Lisa,..
    	
    	Don't edge hun
    
    	You didn't say "treat the symptoms and not the disease",.. those
    were just my added comments, not direected against you personally.
    Money will help rebuild the city,.. but money can do nothing to correct
    the social injustice that created the climate for something like this
    to happen. I think we agree that there is no point in rebuilding the
    city until the social issues,. which begs the question of even if
    Petty did donate the proceeds from a produced/released version of
    the song,. what the heck would you do with the money? Save it for a
    while? Whos  going to make sure the money gets put to good use? Is the
    message of the song going to be lost in a sea of (supposedly
    charitable) capitalis rhetoric? Is someone going to steal some of the
    money? Not to mention the hassels of creating the CD or whatever,.. 
    I was just pointing out that all these hassels may be a reason why he
    didn't want to release it.,.. or more accurately, maybe he does want
    to release but just doesn't want to risk the message getting lost
    in all the hassle. Also,.. the song needs to be heard now. Production
    and release takes months...
    
    Anyway,.. No offense meant by any of this. I didn't mean to accuse
    you of being short (!) sighted :-)
    
    						love
    
    							/
    

	The sad part about the whole Rodney King thing and the roits in LA
is that in another month or so, it will be forgotten and only brought up
occasionally.  The politicians won't change, nothing will get fixed.  I think
it is going to take a lot more then that roit to get this country out of the
gross mess it is in right now.  

    I don't know JC,...
    
    I said a couple months ago and I'll say agin now,.. if the economy
    takes anotehr dive,.. or even if it just stays as bad as it is
    right now without changing,.. we could be in for a long HOT summer..
    
    It seems that these kinds of things always come to a head in August,
    which should be just close enough to the elections so the public won't
    forget it when they go to vote,..
    
    FWIW,. I hope the economy does improve and if it doesn't I hope
    I'm wrong...
    							/
    

 Well, maybe if the politicians and all their glorious speechmaking and PR
 efforts can actually DO something about all the stuff they're talking about
 future problems this summer can be avoided.  But I don't have a lot of hope
 in any of that because GHWB continues to show just how out of touch he is..

    
    At least we know where we stand.... between a rock and a hard place.

    ....weird because this is somewhat how it all started but dept......
    
    they arrested 3 guys that beat up the truck driver in LA, they (Police)
    used the video of the attact to finger the guys.....
    
    Chris

But maybe the truck driver was on PCP.

I heard on the news this morning that the LAPD is asking citizens to
turn in photographs, video tapes, etc. of happenings during the LA Riots.
The LAPD is working with the FBI to crack down on all the looters and
arsonists unfortunate (or dumb) enough to get caught on film.  Did they
really think they could get away with it??  I hope someone doesn't get
busted because they look like someone in a picture - that'd be the pits!

peace,
t!ng

    Lord have mercy
    
    								/
    

..and the vicious circle starts on its second loop...

    so then these guys will get off and the police will burn and loot LA ?
    

I saw the video of the truck driver that got beat up, as I'm sure anyone who 
has watched the news in the last 48 hours has, and it is every bit disturbing 
as the Rodney King video.  Four people have been arrested as a result.  Will 
they be convicted??  At least they won't be able to hide behind "we were 
dooing our dooty."  Such a sad course of events...

Scott

Yeah Scott,

Very disturbing.  And to think he's lucky to be alive.  Some other people
weren't so lucky.

There is a raging debate about whether the media helped or hinder what
occured:

pro media:
 - this man who was being beaten in the video in .-1 was saved by residents 
   who lived right around where he was getting beat.  they went out and saved
   him among others.
 - enabled firefighters and police to see where the fires were - the birds
   eye view of television helicopters were being fed into HQ for fire/police.
 - helped other cities plea for calm over airwaves

con media:
 - added fuel to the fire.  So and So watches the tube and says, "hey that's
   the stereo store just down the street and the cops aren't arresting those
   people" (in the portion of the vid s/he saw) and leaves and joins in.
 - made it look worse in places than it really is by blowing out of proportion
   single incidents.

there's lots more for both sides.

oh well, 
bob

    Yeah,.. ut is a "tearing" thing we are watching unfold...
    
    The media just is,... Criticizing the media is pure folly. As soon
    as they are disallowed from covering something, we'll all be crying
    about "freedom of press/speech",.. and as soon as they bring the
    gory details into our living rooms, the meak among us will object
    to the "violence"...
    
    I'd guess that a significant number of people are viewing this just
    like they would an action movie.... not realizing ,.. or not letting
    themselves realize that this is reality (what a concept!).
    
    In the words of one of the gun toting property protecting Korean
    store owners:
    
    	" This not Hollywood action shot!"
    
    								/
    

>     <<< Note 251.98 by STAR::SALKEWICZ "It missed... therefore, I am " >>>

    
>    The media just is,... Criticizing the media is pure folly. As soon

Billlllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll...

I don't often take issue with ya, guy, but I can't let this statement go by
without comment.  This attitude is _exactly_ why media interests have become so
entrenched (to the point of defining our social norms, our politics, the
allowable levels of racism, our xenophobia, and on and on). Capatalists
capatalize on unfound markets, and America has turned its mind into a vast
unexploited market of unquestioned reverance for the social myths that our
media choses to create to satisfy its own thurst for the almighty dollar. We 
are being duped, dammit, and I can't stand by and let my brethren think that is 
not the case: Criticing the media is the only way real change can happen!

I used to be resigned about it, too, until I let myself get a little paranoid
about it. There's good reason to be paranoid about the fact that special
interest control of the media in this country is so deeply self-serving that it
has become a self-fulfilling prophecy which has turned western man into a 
creature so removed from the reality of his existance as to think:

   o	His destinies are predetermined (racial and economic realities, rather
	than skill and intelligence, define your place in society).
   o	There is nothing he can do about world social and economic injustice
	(IMF/World bank represent those interests, not us; leave it to them).
   o	Making the planet habitable for future generations deserves lip service
	as long as he can keep polluting (GM would go under tomorrow, God 
	forbid, if we acquiesced to the Global Carbon Monoxide Emission 
	standards proposed by the rest of the world {except Britain}).
   o	Radical change at every level of the government is impossible and
	undesirable (Vote for Clinton, he can be bought!).
   o	And on and on...

Why is this the media's fault? They propogate the western myth -- thats their
special interest. They make money from it, and keep the rich getting richer.
Every news story you hear is screened as to its effecacy in terms of propelling
this western myth. Here lies the injustice of it: we are getting a clearly
one-sided view of reality.  Where in the last few weeks, for example, have you
seen an unbiased perspective of an L.A. Looter's actions in the context of his
reality?  Nowhwere. All portrayals of the incidents have been brought to you in
the context of only one social perspective: the same one as was that of the
jurors who acquited the policemen who beat Rodney King, the same ones which 
the media defines as the only perspective which serves their own interests.

We all hear a lot about getting to know our customers. Well, the media has done
exactly that: they found their customers are _not_ consumers, but corporations,
like them (how convenient), and that its in their interests to let us fall into
the trap slash has fallen into, that the media is thing in-and-of-itself rather
that what it really is: a political propaganda tool whose goal is to spread its
imperialistic, right-wing capitalistic ideal everywhere, yet while creating the 
illusion of unbiased, centrist coverage of events.

They don't want us to know this, though; but knowing it is all-important. It
directly dictates exactly what degree to which they can get away with their
influence-peddling.  The more we know about the sliminess of their ways, the
more we can express our distain with our votes, this is clearly not a live and
let live situation. We can't continue to let the big corporations tell us
through their control of the media how to live, what to eat, when and where to
pray, who to hate and when to hate them, what life is, and what's moral.

We must gain back control of the media (and hence our political representation
in government) through knowledge: knowledge of alternative responses to the
course of human events, not just the ones handed to us on a silver platter.
There's and eastern perspective, a poor perspective, a deadhead perspective, 
as well as the "Christian White Middle American Family" perpective, ya know.

I know when it comes to tha American myth, I'm hooked. Yeah, I like lots of
sugar in my coffee, and I'm aware that both the cane-cutters and the bean
pickers are practically slaves, but I take solace that I'm bashing the myth
that that is goodness, that I know the implications of my actions without just
sitting back and saying "thats just the way it has to be".  And I know that
knowledge, guilt, and understanding is just a very first step though, and if
more people took that first step, then folks like me could be affective in
taking the second and thrid step towards affecting real change.

Read alternative books and magazines, listen to NPR, call your friends overseas
and ask them what they think are the most important things happening in the
world, write letters to your representatives and to irresponsible companies;
even the media reads and responds to letter writing. read Notes. Get another
perspective. C'mon, you can do it, Slash ole bud... 

phew.

After reading Bills note again, it looks like I took his comment a bit outta 
context.  Oh well, guess I was in the mood for a good flame this morning, so 
I'll let the note stay put, no offense /er...

:-)

/embarrassed

re:     <<< Note 251.99 by CSCMA::M_PECKAR "oh what tangled nets we weave" >>>
   
>Read alternative books and magazines, listen to NPR, call your friends overseas
>and ask them what they think are the most important things happening in the
>world, write letters to your representatives and to irresponsible companies;
>even the media reads and responds to letter writing. read Notes. Get another
>perspective. C'mon, you can do it, Slash ole bud... 

    You're just trading one set of biases for another.  The alternative
    press caters to those who are eager to hear its messages, just as the
    major media caters to the mainstream.  And the alternative press is
    as willing as a "People" reporter to throw away journalistic integrity
    to tell a story.
    
    The key solution is to be an informed media consumer.  Recognize all
    your sources as biased, and try to listen to alternative viewpoints. 
    Yes, read The Manchester Union Leader _and_ The Globe.  :^)  The
    Nation, too, after you cook up the seafood it surrounds.  :^)
    
    I heard an interview on NPR with a guy who postulated that mainstream
    media wasn't biased left or right, but, considered as a whole, was
    biased to the center.  It's the extreme viewpoints that don't get press
    until they become mainstream or do something spectacular for attention 
    (e.g. Operation Rescue).
    
    It's only going to get worse.  Video is the strongest medium at evoking
    emotion (I won't insult you all by offering the latest and best
    example), and it can be easily manipulated (and there's more special
    effects to come).
    
    Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty.
    
    Jamie

re:  alternative media viewpoints

Don't forget the Christian Science Monitor (paper not tv chnl) which is about 
unbiased as you can get (they used to be anyhow...I don't read it anymore).

And coincidentally, Pat Robertson is bidding for the close_to_broke (again)
UPI.  The Japanese holding company (plz correct that if I'm wrong) is not
sure they want to sell to Pat because they don't want him to add religion
to the reporting....which good old Pat denies he has any intention of doing.
Sure Pat,  Sure.

bob

    Fog for president!
    
    Actually,.. I think you did take me out of context,... but no problem.
    I'm glad to see that someone else feels like I do about the meatyuh
    
    You are right on in my book Fog.
    
    All I really meant is that you really can't (and shouldn't IMHO)
    prohibitthe mdeia (whether it be mainstream or "alternative") from
    covering something like the LA riots. I agree we are getting the
    slanted views and have been and will continue to for a while..
    But thats the beauty of freedom of speech/press,.. you *always*
    get a bias with everything someone tells you... I mean,. you are
    getting my bias on the media itself as you read this no?...
    
    You do bring up an interssting question,.. about control. *I* think
    about the only thingh you can control is what *you* chose to read/view/
    listen to. To try and prevent <insert your favorit multinational
    slimebag corporation> from buying a TV station, or a newspapaer and
    spreading their propoganda would be folly IMHO. About the only thing
    you can do is not subscribe,. not watch,.. not listen,. .and especially
    good moves are to write letters to the companies that advertise on
    those propoganda ridden stations/papers that you are boycotting their
    products because of their association with <insert again your favorite
    multinational>...
    
    	If we all didn't watch,.. didn't read,.. didn't listen,.. then
    they die,. its simple. Advertisers stop advertising,.. and voila,..
    no more propoganda... 
    
    	Yeah right /,... simple! :-/
    
    	Anyway,.. no offenss oh Mistycul vaproious cloudlike formation on
    the horizon...
    
    							/

../Bill and his original point: Control...  tough questions indeed.

And I fully agree with Jamie...  One Smart way to filter any media is to pay 
attention (dammit) to its underwriters, i.e., who are the advertisers and what 
do they represent?

For Example...

Who here subscribes to Consumer Reports? I do, but ya know, its real curious:
they do not accept advertising, they spend oodles of money on research, and
their only source of income is subscriptions/membership fees to their
non-profit organization. Doesn't make sense, really. They burn through cars
like Da ve though firewood, have to buy every model of the latest and greatest
products, and invent and build expensive fancy shmancy machines to rate which
toothpastes taste better and all this on an income of twelves bucks per member? 

Something fishy, there, yes?

ConspiracyP

    That doesn't add up too well like you say Fog....
    
    I always trusted them,.. now you put doubt in my mind,...
    
    Is there anyway to check into your suspiscions? Are they a "public"
    corporation or anything like that? Do they publish an annual report?
    That would tell where they get their money. Even private "non profit"
    types have to publish something of an annual reposrt yes?
    
    							/very_curious
    

    
    way to go - I knew I could count on folks in here to have a brain.
    thank you Fog, Bobo, /, jamie, and others for helping me thru this day.
    
    carol

    Now tell me - did anyone else hear this morning or lately that the
    government is ordering (or may soon) networks to turn over any
    videotapes they may have of the rioters?  I *think* I heard that.
    
    c

 Yep...they want all unaired videotape that the networks/other outlets have.

...of course, the networks will glady turn over their material.

   Then the courts will rule this o.k...

	Then the law will be interpreted to mean that Law Enforecement has
	a _right_ to this information...

	   reversing our constitutional right to privacy...

	   	Then the Constitution will be amended...

		    Then our phone conversations will no longer be private,
		   
			Nor our computer transmitions..

			   Nor our U.S. Mail...
				
				Then our associations will be suspect...

				   And we can be arrested for being a deadhead.

					Then our right to aseembly will go.

					   Then no more riots, right?

					       Fog_who_has_this_much_space_left.
	

    Right,..
    
    no more riots at that point Fog,..just a bloody revolution
    
    							/
    
    PS and FWIW,.. I don't know if you can invoke "right to privacy"
      arguments when you're "ritoing in the streets",.. maybe
      if you were rioting in the privacy of your home (!),.. but
      those were "public" places,.. an interesting debate should
      (but probably won't) ensue...
    
    	Its not the fact that they're going to go after some people
    that bugs me... Its that I'm worried thay won't rest until they nail
    every undesirable .... so like,.. my take on some of it was that
    people saw complete anarchy,.. and did a little looting themselves
    becuase otherwise they would have had no food/water... so what
    about them? At some point,. enough busting of people will happen that
    the community at large will again be put into the "oppressed" position,
    or at least feel enough like thats whats happening,.. and then,...
    around and around we go...
    
    	This was the thought that inspired my "eat its own head" remark
    
    

    
    i fail to see how tapes the network have-and could consequently turn
    over to the gov't-infringe on your right to privacy...  if you do
    something in public (which you have a right to do) and the news crew
    films you making news (which they have a right to do) then it would
    seem to me the privacy thing doesn't come into play...  as soon as you
    do it in public, it ain't private...
    
    it would seem to me that the gov't can ASK for, or if necessary SUBPOENA
    the tapes, but not DEMAND...  the tapes are the property of the
    stations that made and own them (imho)...  
    
    to some extent the gov't does have a right to the info...  what i mean
    is, it is illegal to hinder a criminal investigation by withholding
    information...  i disagree that they can just walk in and take what
    doesn't belong to them, but i wouldn't object to them obtaining them
    through the use of existing legal precedent and procedure...
    
    					da ve

    >> it is illegal to hinder a criminal investigation by withholding
    >> information...  
    
    This is equivalent to the several cases where news reporters have been
    put in jail for "contempt" because they did not comply with subpoenas
    that required them to reveal their sources in investigative reporting
    that involved crimes.  In all cases (that I know of) the eventual
    outcome was that in order to get released from jail the reporter had to
    reveal their sources.
    
    Seems like the same concept being applied here ...
    
    							... Bobbb
    

Rodney who?

Fog, remember that the eroding of our civil rights is not just backed by the
Powers That Be (tm), but also by many of the People (tm).

Americans are afraid these days.  Rather than address the root causes of
crime, many of them look at the problem from a moralistic point of view 
(understandable for a society based on the Judeo-Christian way of thinking),
label the wrong-doers "bad," and come up with knee-jerk solutions based on
incarceration and removal of civil rights.  Sacrifice our collective liberty
for some peace, right?

Until citizens are able to even consider the root causes of this society's
problems, they're going to continue supporting the removal of civil rights.

IMO

Dave

re: Fog's Long media note

I'm personally proud to say that I have not watched the IDIOT BOX since
November 1991.  I'm really getting out of touch with that tool the government
uses to manipulate what lots and lots of folks in this country believe.
People here at work talk about programs, or new commercials, and when I can't
relate because I don't watch, they look at me as if I have 10 heads.  I also
abstain from listening to the radio, however, sometimes I'll tune into
NPR (I can walk to work now, so I don't really have much time available for
the talk-box (radio)).

Where do I get my feed?  I get it from here, that is, when I have time to
read notes which hasn't been a hell of a lot this year, and from the Boston
Globe.  Sure, the Globe has its own biases, but, a newspaper doesn't 
compare to the power TV has (TV: audit & visual; newpaper: just words and
b&w pictures).  Too many people in this country watch TV, I think, and now
that I'm a TV "outsider", I can really see it in the people I socialize
with... there is a certain way the TV makes people think about things, and
I'm now getting away from it ... 

I was reading some stuff in the paper about how elections are won in this
country.  Before the TV, politicians had to rome from city to city delivering
powerful speeches - and, people would travel for 100s of miles to see these
Presidential candidates speak their word.  Present time, slick advertising
firms and politicians with huge financial war-chests make these commercials
that win the elections - most of the commercials are not about how XYZ
candidate is going to do ABC for YOU, instead, they are about how the 
other guy fucked this up or that up, or how he smoked pot and did not
inhale, etc.  The American Public (tm) loves this stuff, and, I'm beginning
to think that most americans are pretty blind to what makes a person
a good public servent...

re: Slash: you say it won't be forgotten (Rodney King ordeal)

Well, I suppose time will tell.  I have a damn pessimistic attitude right
now about the whole mess this country is going through right now.  There
is so much racism and prejudice ....

About the economy, I believe it will improve this year.  But, it ain't
gonna be 1985-1987 for many years to come...  we shall see how it does.
Hell, i'm betting that it'll improve as i have a bit of $$$ in the stock
market (diversified, mind you)...

JC

re: civil rights stuff

Well, I am of the opinion that a lot of the civil rights stufff ultimately
boils down to religion: one's religious values get set when they are young
and typically stay with them for life.  when people are young, they are
very impressionable.  it is easy for a kid to be brainwashed into thinking
a specific/certain way.  as a kid matures, their mind matures and they
begin to think for themselves.  a lot of the positions taken on issues can
be traced back to the way a person was taught;  during those early years,
a young kid just doesn't understand the big, scary, complex picture that you
and i have to confront daily.  kids take what their authority person teaches
them as "law".  some kids, when they get older, are able to dump varying
degrees of the 'stuff' that was engraved during their young impressionable
years and are able to formulate new 'standards' for themselves.  others 
take it all with them and live their life according to the way their early-day 
authority figures taugh them.

different religions comdemn different things;  that is why we are divided
people.  abortion is a perfect example of this: it is taboo according to
the catholic church.  drugs are another example of the  puritainistic
ways engrained deep into lots of americans.

sometime i wonder what would happen if all religion was removed from this
world.  i suppose this is a tough thing to fathom because of the complexity
religion takes in the world's society.

this is all IMO of course.  i'm don't mean to tell anyone that they are
brainwashed, i'm speaking from my own experience....

JC

RE: DC...  Thats the saddest part of all, like I said, it may very well become
a situation where if you proclaim yourself to be a "deadhead", then you have to
live under a narrower set of liberties in exchange. It already true to some
degree. We all know that in many places, you can be pulled over for no other
reason than you have a beat up car with dead stickers on it, and the guy with
short hair in the beemer is treated as some kind of royalty.  Is that an
assualt on Deadhead's civil liberties.  I'm not sure, in some cases, its a very
fine line, which wouldn't take much of a cultural leap to get worse. We all
know that they don't mark cars in parking lots with flourescent paint so that
later they can be spotted on the highway at football games, for example.

I've been thinking about all my floweryness in this topic. I suppose I am over
reacting a bit. Jamie is right, all those left-wing rags have probably affected
me: there agenda is to shock the reader into a (perhaps false) sense of
paranoia about right wing control over the American psyche. I should definitely
chill. 
]
:-)

    about video:
    
    	after the class I took at the public tv station, I learned that I
    can film people in their yards from the street and show this on TV
    without their OK, yes they can sue me/station....but I was on public
    land when I filmed it ! and I would more then likely win in court...
    what we saw in LA, both the beating of King and the beating of Denny
    (the truck driver), one was filmed by a private person who turned the
    film over to the TV stations for a price (read GREED here please,by who
    is hard to tell but thats another story I think don't you :'( ) the 
    other was filmed (and shown live as it happened BTW) by TV news crew....
    also a lot of private people did film the Denny beating and turned it over 
    without being ask to do so for no money, because I guess they thought
    it was the right thing to do....if the King beating was never filmed or
    at least never sold to a TV station, would this had happened ? well
    maybe not now but in time I'm sure something as crazy as what happened
    in LA would happen.....are we losing our rights because of video
    cam-corders ? yes and no....we still have your word against mine....but
    now we might have a small bit of it on film......kinda like the dog
    that bit the hand that feeds it !
    
    Chris

    
    
    >>About the economy, I believe it will improve this year.  But, it ain't
    >>gonna be 1985-1987 for many years to come...
    
    I hope that it isn't like 1985-1987 AGAIN.  Because that very financial
    climate is a big factor that led to our current situation.  I know you
    didn't mean it that way, JC.....
    
    Hogan

re:      <<< Note 251.118 by CSCMA::M_PECKAR "spinning that curious sense" >>>

>I've been thinking about all my floweryness in this topic. I suppose I am over
>reacting a bit. Jamie is right, all those left-wing rags have probably affected
>me: there agenda is to shock the reader into a (perhaps false) sense of
>paranoia about right wing control over the American psyche. I should definitely
>chill. 

    I think most of us alternate between extreme paranoia over the
    political climate in this country and hope for the future.  Sometimes
    simultaneously.  :^)  That's "eternal vigilance."

    One thing I thought of last night in regards to bias is personal
    censoring of alternative viewpoints.  I know I often, consciously and
    subconsciously, skip over articles which present viewpoints other than
    mine.  It takes a real effort to seek out and consider alternative
    views with an open mind.

    One thing I have no mixed feelings on: your ability to chill out.  :^)

    Jamie

    
    I think it's not about rights of privacy, per se.  Somehow my worries
    are connected to the dread of further control of the press. The control
    is already there due to who controls the pursestrings.  However, when
    individuals in the fourth estate begin to understand that all of
    their sources and all of their notes (include videos) are subject to
    subpoena by an omnipotent government, those individuals may begin to
    turn the other way when confronted with an opportunity to record a
    controversial event.  This is power being applied in a very covert
    manner, all the while the guys in charge are mouthing platitudes to our
    freedom of speech.  
    
    To JC and Jamie and / ,
    I think I've decided over the past few days that the best way to get my
    news is from this file and others like it.  It's all I can bear and I
    have to maintain my sanity in this strange and worrisome time. I know
    I'm being manipulated in the mainstream press and the reason for the
    manipulation seems to be the furthering of the American dream as seen
    by rich white people.  The alternative press also has an agenda - in
    my eyes their agenda is to alert and inform not to brianwash.
    
    these are sad times which try our souls
    carol
    

    Carol,..
    
    	We'll walk together little children
    	We don't ever have to worry
    	Through this land of trouble
    	We gotta love one another
    	So won't you take your fellow man, by the hand
    	Try to make him understand
    	We can all be together, forever and ever
    	If we make it to the promised land
    
    								/
    PS and that aint "California"!
    
    PPS,.. whose credited with penning these lyrics anyway? Anybody know/
    	  have the last Jerr CD handy???
    

    
    Thanks /   I needed that
    
    

    
    re Bobbb in .112 and Chris in .? and others...
    
    i don't think that a subpoena of films taken of actions that took place
    on public streets falls into the same category as a reporter who
    refuses to reveal a source for a story and is jailed as a result...
    i would support a reporter who refuses to divulge a source...  i would
    not support a film crew that would not turn over films shot in the
    streets...  
    
    in the case of the reporter protecting a source, an individual comes
    forward, in secret and is promised that his/her name will not be
    revealed...  in exchange for the promise of non-disclosure an
    individual reveals information that could have negative impact on 
    thier person/career etc...  that person needs confidentiality to 
    bring the news to the surface and also protect thier own butt from
    harm...  the reporter is then charged with going out and verifying the 
    information presented by the informant...  then acting on that
    information gather, running (or not) with the story...
    
    in the case of the film footage shot there is a substantial
    difference...  i know of no looters or rioters that said they would
    lead a news crew to the scene of looting as long as the news crew 
    didn't reveal them as a source...  newspeople were on PUBLIC streets
    filming CRIMINAL AND VIOLENT acts being perpetrated...  no attempt was
    made by the perpetrators to conceal identities, retain confidentiality
    etc...  as Chris pointed out, a person can film anything happening in
    public without getting signed consent forms from all the individuals
    involved...  anyone stupid enough to be out pulling this !@#$ in public
    and broad daylight has little recourse in my book...
    
    am i the only one who sees this distinction???  it would seem to me
    that the "rules of the game" are posted in this case...  the film crews
    own the footage...  if it is legally obtained by the gov't (ie by
    subpoena as opposed to "confiscated") i see no problem with the footage
    being used in the investigation...  i WOULD have a problem with the
    gov't declaring that everyone HAD to turn thier films over with out
    question or face prosecution...  after all, the gov't should follow the
    rules too...
    
    on another note, i was kind of psyched to hear that a lot of the looted
    stuff is being returned!  don't remember just where i saw it but
    evidently a number of churches and things in the area are recieving 
    the stolen goods from people who can't keep it in good conscience after
    seeing what was realy happening...  i can understand being swept up in
    mob behavior (not that it is an excuse mind you) but i find it a bit
    heartening to see that there are still some folks whose conscience can
    get the better of them...  maybe it means some learning took place?
    
    					da ve

 I do try and understand the constitutional issues with the film/tape, etc
 but I have a hard time understanding why, if someone has  film/tape of this
 stuff happening (people being beaten, robbed, etc) they wouldn't gladly turn
 it over to the cops/gubmit to nail the perpetrators.


 I've seen the clips of the looted stuff being returned.  Pretty interesting.





 Jum

    RE: .125
    
    but if a private person turns their stuff over to a news dept .. whose
    property is it?  examples could be the McCarthy hearings; WM Hearst
    fiascos; Watergate sources (not all the stuff came from reporters).  
    In many incidents private people actully turn their papers over to
    a reporter or news group because of the enormity of what they are dealing
    with.  Then what?  does the reporter say 'well carol gave me this
    photo and info so I need to protect her anonymity'?   I hope so.  It
    would help me make decisions around whther I would do it again.
    
    carol

    Jum,
    
    	but do you want the Gov. to knock on your door and say we know you
    got this on film so hand it over NOW....I would not want that, but like
    you say if I had taken video of someone getting robber hurt whatever I
    would give it to the police....

    da ve
    
    	I see the distinction clearly and agree with you
    
    	On reason people might not want tyo turn somethng like that
    over is so they could profit from it,.. it could even be used
    as blackmail material,,,
    
    							/devious_mind
    

    "property" can be a difficult concept...  there are lots of different
    kinds of "property" and when it transfers from one party to another can 
    be hard to discern...
    
    if you take a photo and turn it over to the newsperson with the
    understanding that you do not expect to get it back, it is no longer
    your property, but thiers...  inthis instance you shoudl qualify
    as a "protected source" in that it would not be difficult for the
    reporter to claim the photo came from an anonymous source...  
    
    if you give the photo with the expectation that it will come back to
    you (unlikely and unusual in this kind of circumstance) you retain
    it as your own property...  in this case it would be more difficult to
    remain an anonymous source...
    
    in either case, it would be wise to make sure the conditions and
    expectations were clear on both sides before handing it over...  if you
    give it over and they do not promise to keep your name out you could
    potentially claim it as your property even though it is in someone
    else's posession...  just because it passes into thier hands doens't
    mean it becomes thier property...  it's this kind of thing that makes
    people who run contests say stuff like "all photos become the property
    of XYZ Co."  it alleviates them of having to be concerned about your
    property rights...
    
    then there's the concept of "intellectual property" which could also
    determine whether or not your name can be associated with the item
    in question...  for instance, a work of art (photo, sound etc) may be
    the PHYUSICAL property of one person but the INTELLECTUAL property of
    another...  ie the GD could write a tune and record it on Warner Bros
    (or any other label) the recording is the record companies to do with
    what they will...  the song is the GD's to do with what they will...
    
    lawyers make lots of money on this stuff...
    
    					da ve
    

RE:<<< Note 251.128 by SLOHAN::FIELDS "Its sad,so sad 'cus the Circus Left Town" >>>

   > Jum,
    
   > 	but do you want the Gov. to knock on your door and say we know you
   > got this on film so hand it over NOW....I would not want that, but like
   > you say if I had taken video of someone getting robber hurt whatever I
   > would give it to the police....



  No, I wouldn't want that..I would want the gubmit to follow due process..
  warrants, subpoenas, etc..



 Jum

    Arf !!!

>We all
>know that they don't mark cars in parking lots with flourescent paint so that
>later they can be spotted on the highway at football games, for example.

did/does this really happen?  i've heard that they do this at dead shows at the
cap center in landover; does anybody have firsthand knowledge that this is
actually true?

- rich