Conference rdvax::grateful

    I'm seeing indications of that all over the place.
    
    A couple of old men in a 56 Ford pickup truck told my son that the
    American people are going to take care of the trade inbalance with Japan...
    and I believe it.

re   <<< Note 113.81 by VERGA::STANLEY "what a long strange trip it's been" >>>

>    A couple of old men in a 56 Ford pickup truck told my son that the
>    American people are going to take care of the trade inbalance with Japan...
>    and I believe it.

I don't believe it.  There are many, many people out there driving Toyotas and
Nissans and have experienced trouble-free driving.  Those folks will buy one
of those again, based on their experience, probably 9 out of 10 times.  Surveys
will tell ya that.

Is there such thing as an American-made VCR that actually works and is
affordable by Joe Average?

Is there such thing as American-made stereo components that are any good and
affordable by Joe Average?

Americans might attempt to fix the trade imbalance, but first, America needs 
to concentrate on making good quality stuff at an affordable price.  Most
Americans aren't going to buy crap; perhaps the patriotic Americans will
suffer with a lesser quality item for sake of buying American.

Personally, I do support buying American.  I don't buy a whole lot of big
things anymore, but, when I do, I'll make an effort to buy american.  In
my life, I have owned nothing but American cars (Chevy's, to be exact! :-).
I'll buy another one when my Camaro has reached EOL (end of life).

JC

    I try and buy american made clothing. My wife turned me on to it a
    little while ago. I find it really is better made, and last a whole lot
    longer. It is more expensive, but worth it.
    
    

re          <<< Note 113.83 by MR4MI2::REHILL "Call me Mystery Hill" >>>

>    I try and buy american made clothing. My wife turned me on to it a
>    little while ago. I find it really is better made, and last a whole lot
>    longer. It is more expensive, but worth it.
 
yup; me too.  mostly Levi 501s, some LL Bean stuff, and lots and lots of
t-shirts from deadshows, etc!   
    

    Hmmm, I wonder why I had to have two sets of wrenches, metric and
    english, to work on my old Chevy.  The "American" cars are part foreign
    also.  I believe the only true "American" car now is the Saturn.  Am I
    wrong?  Buying American when considering a car seems silly to me,
    unless you buy a Saturn.  I recently bought a Mazda.  It was made in
    the US for Mazda.  What is it?  Foreign or American?  What is it when
    it's built by Americans but has foreign parts?  What is it when it has
    foreign and american parts?  My father 198? chevy Nova was a Toyota in
    disguise.  Buying "Chevy" doesn't neccesarily mean you are buying
    American.  
    
    Personally, when someone says "buy American" when it comes to cars,
    he or she may be a bit mislead.

    
    
         The Ford Crown Victoria and the Mercury Marquis are both built
           with so man foreign parts that they are considered imports!   
                The all-american cop-car! 8-O 
    

ditto what dave irons said.  Did anyone see the stint on 60 minutes Sunday
about the auto industry.  Basically Toyotas are built in Georgia and Chevy's
in Canada and they both contain a majority of Japanese parts.  So, which one
is 'American made'.

I may actually have my facts a little screwed in terms of the companys but
the jist is there .... "American made" is a hard term to define with respect
to cars!

I got a kick out of the town that refused to buy a "Japanese" tractor and
bought a more expensive John Deere tractor instead, only to find out that the
John Deere tractor was built in Japan.

Being the one-world no-boundaries alfalfa-and-tofu dirty anarchistic hippie
that I am, I insist that all my possessions be Made On Earth.

- Dave

>Being the one-world no-boundaries alfalfa-and-tofu dirty anarchistic hippie
>that I am, I insist that all my possessions be Made On Earth.

   you're not dirty dc.  Rather quiet at times but definitely clean enough!

:-) :-)

	Yah, I supposed that is true with new cars (Chevies containing lots
of foreign parts).  My car is an '81 - and, having the pleasure to do all the
work on it myself, most I rarely (if ever) use my metric wrench set.  Most
of the parts in my car are made in America with some made in Canada (which is
fine by me because I'm 50% canadien).  I have not come across any parts that
indicated the origin from overseas.  My next car will most likely be another
old car, that is, when my camaro decides to give it up (147,200 miles).

	BTW Jim Henderson, how is your Tempo doing?  How many miles are on
that thing now?????

RE:         <<< Note 113.90 by ZENDIA::FERGUSON "Jum Henderson in '92" >>>
                  -< newer cars may sport many foreign parts >-


>	BTW Jim Henderson, how is your Tempo doing?  How many miles are on
>that thing now?????



 Rapidly approaching 175K.  Still runs, makes some noises here and there, but
I can still do 75-80 without the thing falling apart.  I'm just a little nervous
about venturing too far from home with it though :^/



Jum

Saw this one on a Toyota Camry at Waterville Valley yesterday.

The sticker was red, white and blue...

  "Sorry America.  As soon as I can afford to, I'll say sayonora (sp?)
   to this car".

Thought it was a rather interesting sentiment...

Dave 

re -.1  Nice!  Better than "please don't slash my tires in a pseudo-patriotic
fervor, America."  :^}

- DaveWho'sGettingNervousDrivingAMazdaAroundNHtheseDays

    Reading this about cars had me think of my truck. I made sure I had a 
    full set of metrics before I dug in to it. I should have 100K by the
    time I leave for Wyoming or just after I get back. When I own it out
    right in May, at 4 years it'll have over 100K, but not without trouble.
    My transmission, 5 speed std., broke at 68K (in Vermont, none of my 
    GM products ever failed to get me home). It's a Ford, it came down to
    the Ford and the Nissan when I was shopping, after a test drive of both
    there was no question which one I was taking home. 
    
    	I don't know where all the parts are from, but the tranny I think I
    remember reading, is a Mazda. It broke! Transfer case is Borg Warner
    and still going, but who own's them?
    
    	At least when I blew up the tranny in my Chevelle it was at the
    start of a drag race around me high school years. It had a good excuse 
    to break and the three remaining gears got me home (only a couple
    miles). 
    
    	I like my Ford a lot. It has not been 100% reliable. But I don't
    know what I'd replace it with, so I'll buy the tools and just keep
    fixing it. I figure at 10 years it should have 250K.
    
    	Think it'll make it?
    	Geoff
    
    And my future boat debate will be between a Scandinavian Dragonfly or a
    Californian F-*. I can't afford either, but I want an F-27, can almost
    conceive an F-24, but I need a comparison and that's the Dragonfly.
    Until then I'll happily sail my Michigan made S2. 
    

	Alright Jim!  I'm also a bit reluctant to venture too far from home
with my car at this time - mostly because it hurts to work on a car in the
cold weather.  I may put another motor in my car this spring as my current
one might be on the skids.

	Re: geoff.  

	I have a Borg_Warner 4-speed manual in my car.  Works very well after
147k miles.  I've changed the gear oil twice....

    I'm almost positive Borg-Warner is a real 100% American owned and
    operated in America company,..
    
    Now somebody can make a liar out of me...
    
    							/not_sure
    			

    Well... all I know is that I'm not buying anything with a Japanese
    name on it if I can possibly help it.

          
    
              I heard that... I bought my Mazda p/u truck in June,
          And I feel kind of ashamed to be driving it. 
                           -- Even though it's used
                           -- Even though Ford owns in on Mazda
                                     ;7/

    whatdoya thinka bout this...I've bought second hand used foriegn cars,
    I buy replacement parts from junk yards, not dealers....I justify this
    by saying I'm not putting monies back into forgien lands, and I drive
    'em till they REALLY fall apart. Any input?
    rfb

Can someone clarify what "Buy American" means these days?

Does it mean:

Made in America, buy Americans at a company owned only by Americans and whose 
suppliers meet the same criteria?

Sold by an American co. but manufactured overseas (Nike)

Sold by a foreign firm but assembled in the US with US and foreign parts (Honda)

Sold by an American co. with US and foreign parts (Ford, Chrysler)

other? The Made in America label is as specific as the "All Natural Ingredients"
label.


I don't see any good reasons to buy anyhting but the best quality that you can 
afford. I have friends in a number of heavy manufacturing industries, including
auto, and would hate to see them lose their jobs. I will not however, subsidize
firms who make inferior products.

The US auto industry is an overused example, but it will do here. Not that long 
ago when they were profitable, they opted to buy other things with their profits
(EDS & Hughes Aircraft by GM) rather than invest in their own core business. By
resting on their laurels they allowed the foreign firms to enter the market by
ingoring the initial demand for cheap, fuel efficient transportation and then 
improved quailty for these vehicles. Now they moan that they can't sell in Japan.
Hell, they can't even sell in their own home market! Europe's a bigger market 
than Japan and they can't sell there. Their quality has improved in recent years,
but it's as if they've given up on the US market. They should concentrate their
efforts at home vs. foreign firms with aggressive pricing and service offerings.
I need more incentive than Lee Iacocca wrapping himself in the flag to buy 
another Chrysler. Just matching the foreign firms isn't enough.

In general, the best way I feel to support American business over the long term
is by buying the best product available at the best price. Force firms, US and
foreign, to give you the most for what you pay.

that's my 2 yen worth

jeff

    I see yer point Jeff, 
    but you missed one thing, one (and only one) reason we can't 
    compete in other countries with our cars is that those countries
    transportaion systems, roads and highways, for the most part, cannot
    accomodate our tanks, er cars. Ask anyone whose tried to drive a 390 
    Mercury station wagon through little tiny German towns. 
    But you DO have a very valid point. I won't buy one more damn
    ball-type-cap that says made in china on it though! %^) 
                       rfb

    RE .100
    
    Thank you Jeff ... I was beginning to wonder if anyone else besides me
    thinks this whole "Buy American" theme is just another pre-election
    exercise in national pride.  It would be different if it really meant
    anything.  But all I see is a lot of confusing hyperbole and rhetoric.  
    
    I'll "buy American" when an American company offers me a quality product
    that is what I want at a reasonable price.  If a foreign company can offer
    a better product for the money then I resent any American executive
    making me feel pressured to buy his product on the basis of nationality.
    Especially when most of the executives who are making all the noise
    work for companies who's manufacturing sites have been moved from the
    U.S. to some foreign country within the past decade ... or companies
    who make profit by buying foreign parts and finished goods and putting
    their own labels on them.  Tell me this ... how is that "saving
    American jobs" ???  The politicians are making hay at your expense
    again if you think that "buying American" is gonna pull us out of the
    economic mess we're in.  It's a smokescreen, designed to get us thru
    another election.
    
    Jeff's got it right ... it's a slogan, and don't mean a damn thing when
    you get right down to it.
    
    >> Made in America, buy Americans at a company owned only by Americans
    >> and whose suppliers meet the same criteria?
    
    I don't know of any major American company that meets this criteria. 
    Can anybody name one?
    
    >> Sold by an American co. but manufactured overseas (Nike)
    
    Most American companies, including the one we all work for, have moved
    some or all of their manufacturing facilities overseas.  Do you think
    they really gave a damn about how many Americans they were putting out
    of work when they did that ??  Me neither.
    
    >> Sold by a foreign firm but assembled in the US with US and foreign 
    >> parts (Honda)
    
    >>Sold by an American co. with US and foreign parts (Ford, Chrysler)
    
    See, that's what's so confusing about the whole thing.  Honda and
    Nissan have huge facilities in the U.S. where they make a lot of the
    cars they sell here.  Those cars provide livelihoods for a lot of folks
    here in the U.S.A. ... so shouldn't they count as "American" cars?  Or
    is it better to buy a Ford that was built by Mitsubishi?  That car
    doesn't provide any jobs in America, but it is sold with an American
    firm's name on it ... an American company does make a profit on it. 
    But does it really benefit anybody else in this country?
    
    >> I don't see any good reasons to buy anyhting but the best quality that
    >> you can afford.
    
    That's what the whole argument boils down to for me too ... in fact,
    that's the whole principle upon which our economic system is based.
    More to the point, I don't see any good reason to buy something I don't
    want when for the same money I can buy something I do want.  Based on
    past history, I find Japanese built cars suit my taste more than
    American built cars.  Furthermore, I find them to be generally better
    quality.  For that reason, I would prefer to buy a Toyota or Honda over
    a Ford or Chrysler.  If Ford and Chrysler want my business, then it's
    up to them to build a better product, not up to me to buy what they
    offer simply because it's "made in America".
    
    >> The Made in America label is as specific as the "All Natural 
    >> Ingredients" label.
    
    I'm reminded of a story I heard when I was in high school.  Back in
    the 50's there was also a stigma to buying Japanese goods in the United
    States.  So the Japanese renamed one of their industrial cities ...
    they named it Usa.  So all the goods they exported from there had the
    label MADE IN USA.
    
    ... Bob
    

    rfb,
    
    	I call that re-cycling ! I buy used cars for two reasons, one is
    the biggie ! I can't afFORD a new car ! or the insurance for it !
    buying a used car puts more money into my hands ! not some slimey new
    car salesperson ! I use to work in the new car world and they would
    cheat their own mothers without a 2nd thought ! not that used car
    dealers are any better but I normally don't buy from them either. and
    getting parts is like taking a walk in a , ah :') junkyard !!
    and yes you beat thet sucker into the ground ! then cut the top off and
    turn it into a planter ! :')
    
    Chris

    >accomodate our tanks, er cars. Ask anyone whose tried to drive a 390 
    >Mercury station wagon through little tiny German towns. 

I stood on a street corner in Stuttgardt (sp?) Germany a few years ago and 
watched cars go by and out of about 300 cars may one or two were not Mercedes 
or BMW, and the majority of them were BIG.  My point?  Don't really have one 
8^) other than they weren't driving little Japanese imports (the couple cars 
that weren't mercs or beemers were US cars with 'merican military plates).

Scott

    
    
   > Most American companies, including the one we all work for, have moved    
   > some or all of their manufacturing facilities overseas.  Do you think  
   > they really gave a damn about how many Americans they were putting
   > out of work when they did that ??  Me neither.
    
    Um, yes I DO think they care...  Though corporations seem to have this
    cold and calculating persona about them, they are all made of people
    making the final decisions around moving the business across seas.
    
    Recently in the PC business, we have decided to move the hardware end
    of it to Taiwan (I believe that's the right place).  It has affected a
    substantial number of people who were doing those jobs.  But here's the
    thing...
    
    Labor costs here are astronomically higher than they are there, and in
    the PC business, all of our significant competitors are getting that
    competitive advantage (reduced labor cost).  Yes we make a concession
    to move part of our business (and jobs) overseas, but we do so in order
    to be able to compete.  It is a world market now (as opposed to 50
    years ago), and as a result you see world companies.  Since we are
    doing business in other countries we'd better take advantage of other
    countries resources otherwise we'll be left behind.
    
    If you think it's bad now, just wait... once wealth comes to these
    third world and low cost labor nations they will build upon their
    educational systems, then they'll REALLY be in the position to deal the
    death blow to the U.S....
    
    Some nations (like Japan) have arranged their government to rally the
    nation AGAINST others (Darwinistic ploy) and have unfair trade
    practices, and a very nationalistic view of playing in the world
    market.  
    
    I babble on, but so many people are biased and blind to reality (IMHO)
    it amazes me.  If we (the U.S.) want to maintain our world economic
    position (that is showing definite signs of slipping away) than we must
    take this best in class stuff seriously.  Quality needs to be number
    one, and cost has to be lowest.
    
    The only argument I've heard that makes any sense in criticism of
    moving business overseas is...  "Management didn't work hard enough to
    figure out how to do it here and still be competitive, they copped out
    and took the easy way out by moving overseas."  
    
    treemon_who_would_really_prefer_to_be_a_person_independent_of_society_
    but_is_already_too_wrapped_up_in_it_to_back_out.

Just "buying American" doesn't seem like a good solution to me.....like it
has been said, it merely allows the American companies to continue to put
out inferior products......and it seems to me it will result in an even wider
gap quality-wise between the American and Japanese products.  "Buy American"
seems like just another short-term solution.....I don't think there's any
solution to this except good old-fashioned work to produce a better product.

I don't really care for Japanese cars myself, but I agree that they're built
pretty solidly these days.  I still like the feel of my VW better....but when
I looked at getting a comparable new American made car 4 years ago, none could
offer me a competitive price....I was appalled at how expensive American cars
were!  And I originally WANTED to buy an American car.....

Hogan

    Hmm.  I just bought a used truck.  '88 Bronco II 4X4.  There was
    nothing patriotic about it, though.  The Japanese trucks hold their
    value (i.e. price) longer, and the Bronco had what I wanted for the
    price I was willing to spend.  If a Montero or a Trooper had shown up
    at the same price/features, I'd be driving Japanese right now.
    
    In the process of shopping, I did discover something interesting.  You
    know the new Ford Explorer?  Nice truck - slick looking.  Japanese. 
    Mazda makes it - it's called the Navajo. (or at least, that's what the
    Mazda dealer told me)
    
    I don't condone the obvious trade restrictions that the Japanese
    impose, but on the other hand, our American car makers aren't very
    forthcoming with cars that are drivable over there.  I don't believe we
    make right-hand driver's seat cars for them - which is what they require.
    
    Then again, we sell a lot of Fords in Britain...Oh well.  Either way, I
    like my Bronco II, even if it was imported from Mars.
    
    tim
    

    re Treemon
    
    	Yo dood,. you started out defending corporations,. and then went
    on to explain that what they really care about is money (cheaper labor
    overseas) and being able to compete in the world market,...and not
    about how many American jobs are lost. The motivation is still, has
    always been,.. and will always be money. Not that this is news to you.
    Nor does it make any difference.
    
    People complain about companies moving overseas,.. it seems like
    something is being "taken away" from the American wokforce. IMHO, the
    American workforce gave it all away by putting itself out of business
    with overpriced labor. If people thing that leaning on a shovel is
    still worth $40 an hour,... I'm sorry,. but I have no urge, patriotic
    or otherwise, to subsidize these labor forces that have forgotten what
    the word labor means. INstead of trying to defend the corps oh
    wisetree, better to question the questioners and ask them how they
    would propose to compete in the world market and still keep
    manufacturing in America,.. land of high taxes, high cost of labor,
    high cost of environmental restrictions, and the slightly lower cost of
    having the mafis dispose of the sludge illegally to get around the high
    cost of environmental restrictions...
    
    AAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    	Ok,.. the lithium is kicking in now,. and yes the shock therapy
    is helping,,,
    
    	:-}
    
    							/frazzled
    
    	FWIW, the moto should be "Build American" first. Once we actually
    	start building stuff ourselves here, then we can start "buying
    	American",.. as pointer out by others,. there are prescious few
    	trully American built products anymore.

    re:.104
    Stuttgart is NOt a little tiny German town, it's one of the biggest,
    with a military base, hence the 'merican boats. My experiance comes
    from the years 67-69 in Germany...i saw many sides of german farms taken
    out by a ford station wagon that you could fit a BMW inside. 
    
    I also think that ONE ( and only one ) of the reasons ya don't see
    Japanese cars in Europe is cause they (the Europeans)don't let 'em in.  
                
    I agree 100% that it is american quality that MUSt improve, and I know
    it's the AmeriKan way, but I (IMO) think we could benifit by not
    requiring 1000% profit on a product in order to call  it successfull. 
                                         rfb sidewalk socialist

    re .102
      unfortunately bobbbb, some of the companies you mentioned are some of
    the same the Rainforest Action Network are denouncing,,,and not for
    taking away American jobs either. %^(
                                         rfb
                              more to the picture than meets the eye
                   (for all of us, remember when life was so easy?)

RE: .107

>    In the process of shopping, I did discover something interesting.  You
>    know the new Ford Explorer?  Nice truck - slick looking.  Japanese. 
>    Mazda makes it - it's called the Navajo. (or at least, that's what the
>    Mazda dealer told me)

	Wrong.  The Explorer is built by Ford in (I think) Kentucky.  Ford sells
a two-door, and a four-door version.  Mazda sells the two-door version, only,
as the Navajo.  Ford owns a significant portion of Mazda.

Mark

    
    
    Yabbut Slash,
    
    You are saying much the same as I am...  I think.
    
    Indeed I started with a statement "Horsefeathers the corporations don't
    care!"  Because corporations are made up of people making the
    decisions.  They aren't pleasant decisions, but they are made based on
    (usually money factors).  Again, they aren't easy decisions, but 
    management has an obligation to manage the company to the satisfaction of 
    the stockholders (Many of whom are Americans btw) and guess what... 
    the stockholders have not said ONE word about moving labor overseas,
    because they know it's more PROFITABLE.  So we agonize over the amount
    of jobs lost to foreign resources, but not only do we subsidize them,
    we INVEST in them too!
    
    All I'm trying to say is, if you are an advocate of "Buy American",
    then understand what it means to say that, and understand what will be
    accomplished with your actions (if anything at all).  There are many ways 
    to solve our complex economic problems, but when you take everything into
    consideration it all comes back to the fundamentals...
    
    Build Quality, and do it at low cost.
    
    You see it's not as easy as pointing the finger at at any one group in
    particular...  
    
    Treemon

    >re:.104
    >Stuttgart is NOt a little tiny German town, it's one of the biggest,
    >with a military base, hence the 'merican boats. My experiance comes
    >from the years 67-69 in Germany...i saw many sides of german farms taken
    >out by a ford station wagon that you could fit a BMW inside. 
    
Not that it really matter much in the grand scheme of things 8^), but I think 
I said there were very *few* foreign (to Germany) cars, and that they were 
almost exclusively German boats.  The few foregin cars that I saw were indeed 
those belonging to soldiers, a few Firebirds and I think I saw a older 
Thunderbird.  This was in '88 and I only spent a grand total of about 2 weeks 
in Germany (was living in Spain at the time).  BTW, there were lots of 
American-brand cars in Spain, the most popular of them being small to mid-size 
Fords (they were models that were not sold in the US as far as I know).  There 
were some small Chryslers but almost no GM.  None of the American-brand cars I 
saw there that I can remember were the boat-size variety (except the occasional 
car belonging to American soldiers at the air force base in Madrid).

Scott

    but the Navajo/Explorer was designed in cooperation between Ford
    and Mazda, which brings us back to the vagueness of "buy Amurikan"
    
    
    
    --->I second the motion of "build American" I'll put that on my mazda.

    re .112
    
    	Yes,, Treeemon we do agree. I should have come right out and said
    that. What I was pointing out is how difficult a position you put
    yourself into when you start out trying to defend the corporations...
    thats all,... and the being immaterial and ireelevant to the other
    points you make (and I agree with)
    
    	sorry if I confused you
    
    							/lazy_american
    

    
    Oh...  I thought so!
    
    I just looked up and realized this was all taking place in the Bumper
    sticker note....
    
    What a notesfile!  Sorry mods...  I didn't mean to contribute to the
    chaos!
    
    treemon

Re:  <<< Note 113.112 by LJOHUB::RILEY "Without a slip of the toungue..." >>>

>    (usually money factors).  Again, they aren't easy decisions, but 
>    management has an obligation to manage the company to the satisfaction of 
>    the stockholders 

	Without reading the rest of the note string - 

	This is the number one problem with American business today, 
	IMHO.

	In my ideal world, the priorities that would be at the top of
	the list, and very close in importance would be:

		1. The Customers
		2. The Employees
		3. The Community in which business is conducted

	Way out there, over the horizon, somewhere, would be the fourth
	priority, the investors.  Take care of the first three and the
	fourth won't require any special attention...

	Bob_who_would_like_to_pull_the_big_flush_handle_on_the_
	artificially_hyperinflated_importance_of_Wall_Street

    RE .110 (rfb)
    
    >>  unfortunately bobbbb, some of the companies you mentioned are some of
    >> the same the Rainforest Action Network are denouncing,,,and not for
    >> taking away American jobs either. %^(
    
    Can you elaborate?
    
    			... Bobbb
    

    
    re: .118
    
    Hi Bob!
    
    Well unfortunately the stockholders own the company, therefore have
    control.  The problem is that often stockholders are so disbanded and
    unorganized (once a year vote, often by proxy, even more often
    waived?)  that in all actuality the company plays to the market (Wall
    Street) instead of its actual stockholders. 
    
    And we all know how long-sighted those American Dreamers tm are on Wall
    Street!  ugh...
    
    So I'd definitely have to agree with your sentiment.
    
    treemon 

    Hi bobbbb
    the forigien car companies you mentioned in yer note as well as MOST
    large Jap. companies are responsible for more rainforest damage and
    indiginious peopels misplacement than any other country. I knew this
    from Greenpeace and other orgs. but the lit. I picked up at the Merle
    show re-inforced it. And it has nothing to do with cars! Those larger
    orgs, like American compamies are so diversified that a car company is
    the major importer of teak from Malaysian rainforests. 
    
    no flames at ya, bobbb, I agree that it's damn hard to know whazt
    "american" or even safe to buy as am informed simi-intelligent consumer 
    that can't spell fer sh#t right now!
    rfb %^)

    the Rainforest Action Network is a non-profit organization dedicated
    to saving the rainforest by doing things like educating the public 
    on what some uses for the forest are, sustainable products, and 
    whao are the abusers...  i believe they are beneficiaries of Merle
    and co these days as well...
    
    					da ve

    still working on RAN headquarters address, all I have is the Boulder
    Rainforest Action Group address and number
    
    BRAG
    campus box 207
    U of Colo
    Boulder, co. 80309
    
    303-492-2765

re .108:
    The aforementioned corporations would LOVE for everyone to believe
    that it's all the fault of labor -- That we all have to work even
    longer for even less pay.  The bosses get wet dreams about pulling
    that one over on us!  They also get big bonus and pay raises for it.
    
    They'd also like us to believe that we have to trash the environment
    to be competitive.  So how come Japanese cars pollute LESS?
    
    I don't know of anybody who gets $40/hr. for leaning on a shovel,
    but if anyone is, they're probably building highways, not automobiles.
    
    I don't make $40/hr, and don't know of anyone who does and isn't in
    management.

>    I don't know of anybody who gets $40/hr. for leaning on a shovel,
>    but if anyone is, they're probably building highways, not automobiles.
    
    Me neither, but we might if we lived in Japan, where a grapefruit costs
    $15 and steak is $25/lb.
    
    Anybody see Frontline Tuesday night?  Interesting perspective on Japan
    and Matsushita (Panasonic, etc)...
    
    tim
    

    re:-.2
    
    >    The aforementioned corporations would LOVE for everyone to believe
    >    that it's all the fault of labor -- That we all have to work even
    >    longer for even less pay.  The bosses get wet dreams about pulling
    >    that one over on us!  They also get big bonus and pay raises for
    >    it.
    
    Not trying to be harsh Andy, but I suggest you rethink this a little. 
    Quality and cost control is largely the responsibility of management. 
    The cost of labor is NOT dictated by management.  It is determined by
    the going market rate.  That is certainly the way it works in Digital
    anyway. 
    
    If your job code is determined to be making less money than in
    comparison to the comparable job codes in the industry, DEC makes
    efforts to increase your raises, and conversely if you are making more
    than the industry average, you get a smaller raise.
    
    Now if you wanted to say that many managers are overpaid, I wouldn't
    challenge you on that one!  
    
    Treemon 

    
    Hi Andy!
    
    	Yes,. as was just said,. the cars themsleves are very fuel
    efficient,.. but the Jap car makers and Jap corps in general are the
    worst environmentally.
    
    	The $40 an hour to lean on a shovel may be an exaggeration,..
    but *any* amount of money being paid for someone to lean on a shovel
    is the problem,. whether its $40, $20, or $1
    
    	I agree, that the "bosses" would love to have us believe that
    its all the fault of the workers. Its not. The same argument of
    being way overpaid applies even more heavily to the multitudes
    of American middle management, as well as high and low level
    management. But it is partially the fault of the workers,.. because
    its partially everybodys fault.
    
    	re Treemon,.. and the price of labor being set by the market.
    
    	YES! BUT!!!!!!!,... unions
    
    	The way the law works in many places and in many situations results
    in the unions getting union wage,.. which may or may not resemble
    fair market value for their services. So in some respects, the price
    of labor is artificially inflated in this country.
    
    	We Amerikuns maintain a fairly high standard of living. We have
    been high on the hog for so long that we forgot how to work. What
    Japaneese officials have been saying is at least somewhat true. I'm
    not going to get up and wrap myself in the flag because they were
    outspoken enough to dare to say it. I'm not going to stand here
    and defend myself or my fellow Amerikuns against what is essentially to
    my view of the world a true statement. The higher price of labor is
    partly a result of trying to maintain this high standard of living
    for everyone,... what we are about to discover is that our labor forces
    have priced themselves out of the market,.. hence the move to
    manufacture overseas,... and that in order to get back into the market
    the price of labor is going to have to be lowered,. which means that
    the standard of living will have to be (at least temporarily) lowered.
    Nobody is lining up anxiously awaiting to have their standard of living
    lowered. (surprised?),.. so we drone on ahead clamouring through
    the fog of huge deficit spending,.. Bushonomic economic BS rehtoric,...
    cruising head long for a crash... The crash is what will make us
    all accept the klower standard of living,.. whether we like it or not.
    Some voodoo economics may forestall the crash or eliminate it,..
    but the way things sit right now,. it don't look good to me.
    
    							/ramblin'
    
    

    rfb,
    
    My thoughts on the high priced imported food was more or less
    associated with the idea that the Japanese MAKE it that way.  It
    doesn't cost $25/lb to bring beef to Tokyo, any more than it costs $5
    per banana to bring them here.  It's pretty clear that we could import
    beef to Japan for a fraction of what they pay for it.  The problem is
    that the Japanese apparently limit the AMOUNT we can ship, and tax the
    sh*t out of it...That's not fair.
    
    And I don't even like grapefruit - we can send all of 'em there...;-)
    
    tim
    

Forgive me for asking, but should we be using the term "japs"?







Jum

Gee, Jum you're reading my mind, scary you could get lost in there. 

The terms jap and japs ARE considered derogatory offensive slang. 
Source: The American Heritage Dictionary and many Japanese friends. 

:-Chuck

    THis is the bumper sticker note...
    
    I should have a new one on my car with a picture of me with a sheepish
    look on my face and my foot in my mouth that says.."once again..."
    
    rfb 
    

re .126, .128, etc...

If we are willing to accept a drastically reduced standard of living,
that's what we'll get, and don't expect it to be temporary.

Japan has a standard of living at least as high as ours, as does Germany,
I believe.  Germany has even stricter labor laws than the US does, too.

Japan builds cars here with American labor.  Not all of those cars are
for the American market, either.  American labor is cost-effective for them.
Of course, their factories are new, not old and worn-out like many of ours.

Japan and Germany also spend about 1% on defense.  We should do the same!

We're working longer for less than we were 20 years ago,
according to a recent study.



>a cloud of deficit spending...

Yes, the Reagan deficit was greater than all the deficits for all
those who came before, combined, and Bush has increased it even further.
Where did all that money go? 

. "Safe Harbor leasing", a huge tax break for huge corporations, put through
  in 1981.
. The Reagan arms buildup.
. Additional high-income tax cuts in 1986.
. The S&L bailout.
. The war on drugs.
. The war on Iraq.
. ??????????????

It sure didn't go to all those Democratic social programs, they've been cut
every year.

>it's everybody's fault

For what?  Are we to feel guilty now for every minute of the day or night
that we are not hard at work?

I've been working about 60 hours/week lately, how much is enough???

>funny; i never see marketing or managers putting in this kind of time,
>at least in my life at dec.

Sorry JC mon, but take it from a marketing dude, 60 hour weeks/12-14 hour days 
are not uncommon, at least in my group.

Scott_caught_in_the_middle_between_sales_and_engineering

PS - I'll send mail about tonight soon

    a statement like that paints with a pretty large brush doncha think???
    
    plenty of folks, including managers and marketing folks, are putting
    in the time these days...
    
    				       da ve

    Pretty much all of the managers here are working 60-70 hour weeks.
    They're even on the line helping to build PCs, drive fork trucks,
    pack & ship orders, etc.

    
    RE; slash
    
    Once again... save wave lengths /, as always.
    
    RE; Andy
    
    I don't know about different countries standards of living too much,
    but I do know ours is high, and the stat about working now less for
    more money than 20 years ago doesn't surprise me...
    
    No, I don't think anyone in here implied that everyone should feel
    guilty for our situation because they haven't done their part...
    
    I think /mon (correct me if I'm wrong /) meant it is a condition that
    has developed because of our society.  I just get frustrated when
    people pit managers against labor like there are only two groups
    existent in our work force and it's us vs. them...  you know?
                                                                
    Where is the spirit of team?  Kind of tough to hold on to quality when
    you're pitted against your own team members...
    
    tree

    It looks like the Japanese are going to be the next race to breed
    hatred, since the Russians have diversified.  Maybe that Japanese
    professor was killed out of racial hatred and not other reasons.  We
    don't need to create any more hatred in our society.
    
    If we're worried about them taking away our markets, maybe it's our
    problem that we have failed to identify the markets and make the right
    products.  My group has been having quality meetings and I've gotten a
    few thoughts from them.  First, the Japanese have practically been bred
    for quality, just look at their art, enamelware and stuff like that in
    the museums.  Yet around here (not necessarily DEC, just American
    companies in general), often when someone comes up with a good idea it
    isn't allowed to go because it "isn't the way we've done it before". 
    There's too much stubbornness to change.  We talk like we want to
    change our ways, but when it comes down to implementing something
    radical, we don't do it and look to the other guy to do it first.
    
    Scott
    

If you think the Japanese have been bred for quality, take a look at a '72
Datsun, if you can find one still around.

Junk.

The old Honda CVCC was no prize either.

They're not bred for quality any more than we are.  They ARE RAISED for
nationalism; it's a religious thing, and that's probably what we're seeing
the results of now.  I don't agree with countering it with the same, lame
sentiments, though.

tim

Sorry. I deleted my note - I was just reflecting on *my* own personal DEC 
experience, which has been limited to 2 groups.  Perhaps these four walls
around me leave me quite blind to what is really happening around me.

re                      <<< Note 113.139 by SCOONR::GLADU >>>

>    Pretty much all of the managers here are working 60-70 hour weeks.
>    They're even on the line helping to build PCs, drive fork trucks,
>    pack & ship orders, etc.

I didn't think DEC was that busy.  This is good news indeed...

re:    <<< Note 113.143 by ZENDIA::FERGUSON "Approaching the snapping point" >>>

>I didn't think DEC was that busy.  This is good news indeed...

    It's not so much that we're busy. It's more because we downsized. :-/

    Yes GerG is right work persay has not increased (I don't think it has I
    might be wrong) but the amount of people doing a job is less so it
    picked up workload...to thos left....I'm starting to see this happening
    right here in SHR.
    
    Chris

It's both, my workload has most certainly increased as a result of other groups
going away (ie. CSSE) .. I bet Jim and anyone in Dascomb road can say the same
thing........ 

RE:     <<< Note 113.146 by LEDS::MRNGDU::YETTO "child of countless dreams" >>>


>going away (ie. CSSE) .. I bet Jim and anyone in Dascomb road can say the same
>thing........ 


 Don't know what Jim would say but Jum says things are getting busier here.
 The downsizing had its effects, plus as we expand into the Desktop market
 we are seeing and will continue to see a lot of activity.  


 But downsizing reorgs have really made things a little tight and occasionally
 frantic.




 Jum

re .140
	You got it backwards.  We are working MORE for LESS, according to
	the study.

re --workforce & ++workload:

	It's a good thing I enjoy this work,
	because there sure is a lot of it to do!

	We're not downsizing at all in PCSG, as far as I can tell.

    
    
    re:-.1
    
    working MORE time for LESS money now compared to 20 years ago?  Wow,
    that does surprise me...
    
    hmmm...
    
    tree

    We may be working more *hours*,.. but we are producing less and less
    of less competitive products. If you spend 60 hours a week at work,
    and read notes for 59, or "lean on a shovel" for 59, or go to
    beuraucratic BS meetings for 59, or "put in the typical American
    level of effort" for 59,..............
    
    Even if you are really working 60 hours, its only the results that
    matter,.. not how long you spend making them happen. What do you
    have to show for your 60 hours of work? Anything we can sell? Anything
    of quality? The words "good enough" should be eliminated.
    
    And I disagree that we are working for less of a standard of living.
    I agree that we are headed in that direction, but up until now I don't
    see any less of a standard in general. You are correct though Andy
    that we are headed that way I think..
    
    Let me rephrase the "we're lazy" sentiment to a "no matter how hard
    you work, if akll you produce is more costly products of inferior
    function and performance" then all your work is for naught.
    
    Lets talk about "meaningful work" as opposed to "meaningless work".
    
    Meaningful work produces saleable products, revenues, profits, and
    higher standards of living.
    
    Meaningless work produces unsaleable products if anything at all,m
    little or no revenue, rarely any profit, and *eventually* lower
    standards of living.
    
    I submit that we Amerikuns who do any work at all (now disregarding
    the "lean on a shovel people") have been doing a higher proportion
    of meaningless work in recent years. Corporate raiders are some
    of the hardest workers around,.. but their product (or by product)
    being a disassemled American manufacturing industry is a "meaningless"
    at best,. and destructive at worst "product" or "output". This is one
    group of Americans who I wish wouldn't work so hard at destroying
    the underpinnings of our economy.
    
    Just for the record,.. nothing personal here,.. nithng directed
    at anybody else personally,... Just a friendly discussion right folks?
    
    							/
    

    First off, it would really be nice if one of you moderator types could
    move this discussion over to note 90 or 91... as it really doesn't have
    anything to do with bumper stickers.
    
    Second off, as slashmon just noted, the number of hours you work in a
    week isn't an indication of how productive you are ... and may be an
    indication that you don't manage your time well, or aren't being given
    an adequate amount of support for your job, both of which can be
    negative indicators of productivity.
    
    In regards to our particular corporation, I find that there's a lot of
    talk about improving efficiency.  But it's mostly just that, and you
    have to be very careful about pointing to inefficiencies within Digital
    or you may be marked a "troublemaker" and be in jeopardy of losing your
    job.  I don't know how it is for the rest of you, but in my
    organization everyone is "hours conscious" these days ... and the
    watchword of the day is "keep your head low" ... meaning that people
    spend those hours hidden away in their offices finding something to
    keep them busy.  However, the basic agenda hasn't changed, and people
    aren't always busy doing the right things.  And if you are critical of
    "the way we do things" ... even if you present a better way ... you are
    labelled a "boat-rocker" by the very managers who've built their own 
    power base by using the very methods that have gotten us into trouble in
    the first place.
    
    My managers try hard to convince everybody that my organization is
    "Best in Class" ... but they make no mention of the fact that if we're
    so good, why can an outside contract house do the same work at 40% less
    cost than we can ... which is why so many of our internal clients are
    taking their work outside of Digital, which only exacerbates the
    problem and results in more lay-offs.  No ... they'd rather fix the
    problem with rhetoric and get rid of anyone who tries to point out the
    things that prevent us from actually becoming "Best in Class".
    
    Where we work, productivity is not the metric by which our managers are
    measured ... revenue is.  And I'm talking about revenue from within the
    company, going from one of Digital's "pockets" to another.  And because
    of this, efficiency is often seen as a bad thing because it means less
    revenue coming in for the same work.  My managers want us to find ways
    to justify spending inordinate amounts of money for our projects, not
    find ways to spend less and get more.
    
    In the past year, by my client's own estimation, my efforts saved his
    department between $100-180K ... which means that I found ways to
    produce the same work for less money.  This was not mentioned in my
    performance review ... indeed it was not looked upon by my superiors as
    a good thing because it meant they couldn't charge my client as much
    money for the same work, and it threw their numbers off.  A Japanese
    company would reward an employee for being more efficient.  No such
    thing at Digital.
    
    Our system does not encourage efficiency ... in encourages exploitation
    and justification for less than our best effort.  Until this changes,
    we will never be able to compete in a world market.  And we'll simply
    continue to make phrases like "Best in Class" into nothing more than
    meaningless marketing rhetoric.
    
    We may like to believe that it's "unfair" trading practices that got us
    into this mess, but it's our own screwed-up priorities and business
    myopia that's responsible.  Until American companies (like the one we
    work for) get their priorities straight and remember that it takes more
    than image and marketing slogans to make someone "Best in Class", we'll
    never be able to compete with foreign companies who DO place an emphasis
    on productivity and long-term planning.
    
    ... Bob
    

    
    
    Very VERY well said Bobbb.
    
    Big problem within DEC.... Measurement systems.  Hopefully that will
    improve with New Management System tm.  I know a lot of people are
    skeptical, and rightfully so based upon the track record they've been
    exposed to and had to deal with, but I am young enough (and new enough
    to the company... 2 1/2 yrs.) to still hold idealism as a virtue.
    
    So, if the machine is broken, let's work together to fix it.  If you
    can't honestly tell yourself that you're doing your part (or the best
    you can given the constraints), then either look elsewhere for a job
    that DOES make you a valued contributor, or work smarter to do your
    part...
    
    Frustrating environment Bobb, keep the faith...
    
    tree

    re .152
    
    	You said it better than I did Bobb
    
    
    							/
    

    So far, it seems that NMS is making it worse.

    
    NMS is making What worse?
    
    Because it certainly isn't making measurement worse.  Before, revenues
    were counted many times over (referred to as "leveraged revenue").  Now
    the money is only being counted once (rightfully so).
    
    Andy, our organization has been notorious for "leveraging revenue"
    (trying to take credit for the revenue of other organizations).
    
    tree

Well here is a moderator type with neither the time nor the patience to 
move the umpteen notes which aren't related to bumper stickers to note
90 or 91 or even a new one......  may I ask that the authors who wish to
pursue this conversation simply continue it in one of those spots?  Thank you.

 NO WAY!!




 :^)

    RE: Eat your import ...
    
    That kind of logic really makes me mad ... it's the stuff that leads to
    nationalistic bigotry, and usually to war.
    
    The fact of the matter is that most people who are hungry and out of
    work today are not in that condition because of imports ... they're
    that way because the past two administrations made it possible for
    corporate raiders to buy American companies and suck them dry (can you
    say Frank Loranzo ???  I thought that you could).  They are hungry and
    out of work because of what's popularly called "Trickle down economics"
    ... but the only problem is the economics ran dry before they could
    trickle down to those people.
    
    And the fact of the matter is that most of the people responsible for
    the condition of the economy today drive around in Mercedes, BMW's and
    other expensive yuppy imports.  Folks who are hungry and out of work
    usually can't AFFORD an import.
    
    ... Bob
    

    thanks for moving this...i have deleted all my seemingly racist notes %^) 
    
    rfb

    
    Did anyone hear the question of the day on WCGY (no flames pls - I
    don't have a deck in my car)?  DJ wanted to find out how many people
    who own car phones drive american cars or foreign cars.  He said the
    way to find out was to have a cellular owner call in and agree to honk
    his/her horn while on the air.  Apparently foreign cars have a
    distinctive honk.  I think if you stumped the DJ you won something
    equally dumb.  The challenge was phrased this way:  Blow it and win.
    
    

And if you hear a futile pounding, but no honking, you can guess it's American.

	-->  ;^)  <--

    
          What it comes down to is that we are consumers. Different
    consumers have different values they base their purchase on. My values
    come down to three things:
    
          1. $$$ (or lack thereof)
          2. quality
          3. Do I like it? (Sometimes this one is superseded by #1.)
    
          Four years ago, all of these values pointed to an import, my
    Volkswagon Fox. My choices in my price range?? They included the Yugo
    (Bahaha!) and the Hundai (Again, baha.), yes they were limited.
    However, in the back of my mind I remembered my father, who ALWAYS
    bought Oldsmobiles, bragging about his 18 miles to the gallon!! And
    they were always in the shop! 
    
          I've had my car 4 years now. It's paid off, which I'd NEVER be
    able to say with the American cars available at the time, and the only
    work I've had done on it was a new $8.00 fan belt. It always starts and
    gets great mileage. 
    
          Should *I* change my values as a consumer to fit the American
    product? No. The American product should change IT'S values to meet the
    consumers'.
    
          I'll shop as I always do. I check out the product. The one that
    fits my needs best, I'll buy, regardless of the nametag. American
    companies will get the picture, they already are. The products are
    somewhat better than they were a few years ago.
    
          I would never buy something simply because it had a tag that
    said "Gucci" or "Ralph Lauren", so why would I if it said, "Made in
    America" and was inferior? If it's the better product, I'll buy it.
    
          Has anyone seen Ralph Nader yet? I saw him speak at Worcester
    State, he has LOTS to say on this issue!!
    
    

    Good business philosophy!
    
    /bruce

    Actually, Gucci has had a lot of problems because in recent years new
    managemenet had 'sold out' by licensing their trade mark to just about
    anybody that could come up with the lira to by the license.  Hence
    Gucci dog collars, Gucci leather underwear, Gucci bags in K-Mart...etc
    They had a serious image and quality problem, until very recently when
    a Gucci family member stepped in and cut off the 2-bit licensees.
    
    But I digress...;-)
    
    tim
    
    P.S. No, I don't own any. :-)
    

The Toles (?) cartoon in the paper yesterday showed a guy up on a ladder
in front of "Detroit Motors", changing letters on a sign ... the sign read
"Bye America."  Underneath, a person is saying "That's B-U-Y."  :^}  :^/

    Re: Grady's post...
    
    	Leather underwear?
    
    

        Here is the O-Fish-Al Made In America Quiz.  I adapted this from
        one that appeared in the Wall Street Journal.  The goal: match
        the vehicles listed on the left with a country in which it is
        manufactured from the list on the right.  Note: a given country
        may be used more than once or perhaps not at all.  Answers after
        the form feed.

        
        Pontiac Lemans                  Australia
        
        Chevrolet Lumina                Canada
        
        Mercury Capri                   Germany
        
        Honda Accord Coupe              Japan
        
        Dodge Stealth                   Korea
        
        Mercury Tracer                  Mexico
        
        Plymouth Voyager                United States
          (Short Wheelbase)
          


        Answers
        =======
        
        Vehicle                         Country of Manufacture
        -------------------             ----------------------

        Pontiac Lemans                  Korea
        
        Chevrolet Lumina                Canada

        Mercury Capri                   Australia
        
        Honda Accord Coupe              United States
        
        Dodge Stealth                   Japan
        
        Mercury Tracer                  Mexico
        
        Plymouth Voyager                Canada
          (Short Wheelbase)

    HA!  Thanks Bob for so effectively showing what I've been trying to say
    for WEEKS now ... buying American ain't all it's cracked up to be.  And
    making me feel good in the process, as the Honda Accord is one of the
    two models I'll be looking at in a few months when it's time for a newer
    Baileymobile ...
    				... Bobbb
    

    
       One more for the quiz....
    
    
           Volkswagon Fox??????
    
    
    
                       
    
           
    
    
    
    
    
              Brazil !
    
    -Aly
    

    I saw a paper somewhere were they used a formula to figuer out
    what the "most american" made car was.  It had everything in it
    from owner of the company, who built it, to where the parts came
    from.  The can that is "most American" is the Honda Accord
    built in the US.  
    
    I personnally only buy Honda's or Toyota's because I have found them
    to be superior in value.  They are engineered better, have better
    workmanship, last longer and have fewer repairs.  I rely heavily on
    Consumer Reports for my data when I purchased my first new car, a
    Honda Civic sedan in 1986 and I have not had a SINGLE problem with it
    yet.  (Consumer reports voted it "least maintenence" of any car for
    '86)  I have owened many American car in my day, and everyone except
    my Duster fell apart at about 60-80k miles.  In the end, I ALWAYS
    ended up taking a bath with resale value also with American cars,
    kind of a double whammy with higher repair bills and lower return
    on investment.  My VW Scirocco that I put 185k on still ran great
    and I got $1700 for it after 8 years (I paid $7200 for it when it 
    was 1 year old)  I have a company car now, a Ford Taurus and I have
    to say I am favorably impressed in general.  Still, it has many 
    manuf. flaws... like a bad paint spot defect in the right front
    fender (Its actually some chunk of somehting under the paint the
    dealer said he can't fix)  Both myself and my boss have had our
    brakes and roters replaced by 30k miles.  I have a bad rattle in the
    rear deck I just can't seem to stop.  BUT, dispite all that its
    still the best American car I have owned.   I may buy it when
    its lease is up.. ....   if it continues to hold up...
    
    I think American car ARE getting better... but they still need to come
    a ways before I will feel they are equal in value to a foriegn 
    Jap/euro auto...
    
    
    RS>
    

    
        Anyone interested in commenting on American made Guitars?
    
        Fender seems to do well... Gibson too puts out a good product!
    
        I haven't really played many of the overseas copies though...
    
        have *you*?   How do they compare?
    
        {?}
    

    uh oh
    
    well. if you really want to get some opinons,.. you could check
    out GUITARNOTES,...
    
    I think it KDX200::GUITAR
    
    if you have any trouble with that,... send me mail and I'll get
    	you the complete file spec...
    
    	I don't know how to do the keypad 7 thingy
    
    	FWIW the first question I ask is "whats your price range?"
    
    	Also,.. are talking acoustic, electric, acoustic w/pickup???
    
    								/
    

    
       I actually am not looking to buy - I already got!  There 
       wasn't even a decision for me - I knew I wanted a Strat!
       Largely because I am a `buy American' fan, and largely because
       thats what all my heroes (Except Jerry :^} ) play. I figured
       if the Strat is good enough for them, I ought to be able to deal
       with it. But in doing so, I never even played the japanese 
       look alikes - I'm just curious as to how people who've played
       both feel about the comparison....
    
    
       And just so as not to step into the middle of an auto conversation
       and through it off track (apologies) I am currently driving a
       1986 FORD Escort...  its got...
    
    
                           YES  140,000 miles 
    
       on it and still going strong!  Course my standards of performance
       have been modified by other financial priorities (Like Fender
       Strats) but, hey, these days having no car payment is a joyous
       thing!
    
       Ken

>       thats what all my heroes (Except Jerry :^} ) play. I figured

Jerry used to play a Gibson, then a Strat, then he migrated to a custom 
guitar that is the both of best worlds (some Strat, some Gibson).... some
of the heavy_duty guitar_head in here could probably talk about this more
then i can....

someday, when my freakin' hands/wrists get better, i'll be out shoppin' for a
good axe, most likely a Strat (left-handed)... ronnie earl is a big strat man
and my #1 fave guit-box player to see at this point in my life.

btw, in today's Calendar Section in the Globe, there is anm article about 
guitars.  Ronnie earl is quoted along w/ a few other boston ax-folks.

    well, it's generally accepted in this notesfile that Fender guitars
    eat Ibanez guitars for lunch. That's all I have to say.
    
    - Dave

    
    >>    well, it's generally accepted in this notesfile that Fender guitars
    >>    eat Ibanez guitars for lunch. That's all I have to say.
    
    Thats already been established :^)  However, the question of the
    century is still "Do Gibsons eat Fenders for lunch?"
    
    :^)
    
    Hogan

    Aren't there 3 types of Strats?  Pre-CBS, post-CBS, and Japanese.  The
    Casio midi guitar is a Japanese strat.  My girlfriend has a post-CBS
    Strat.  Someday when I have a clue how to play I may see what makes
    Strats so appealing.  Jum seems to like it though.
    
    Scott
    

    
    
    	I'm outnumbered,.. I'm also out daved
    
    	All I can say to you guys is:
    
    	"The guitar is not the important part of the equation"
    
    	Neither is the amp... or lack thereof for you Kitty Hawk(tm)
     owners
    
    								/
    
    PS I am in the market for a strat too,...
    
    	ON the serious side,.. to actually attempt to be unbiased
    about this for a second,.. I'll say this:
    
    	Strats:
    		Nothihng that I've ver played "fits" like a strat. When
    		you strap one of them on it almost feels like theres
    		nothing there,.. its *real* comfortable which adds up
    		after a couple hours...
    		They have all the "hero worship stigma" associated
    		with them,.. but for good reason I'd say. They are
    		sweet. The only "gripe" is you have to go for one of
    		the real fancy models to get what I think are good
    		pickups... which adds to the "price" gripe...
    		But thats what the Want Ad is for....
    
    		The reason I play the Ibanez is the neck. That streamline
    	neck is so much fun,...and the price I paid I got good pickups
    	for what I would have paid for a *low* end strat... but I'll
    	probably never buy another "new" guitar again,.. unless Nigel
    	of Spinal Tap sells his collection of never even touched,.. never
    	even looked at guitars :-) :-) :-)
    
    	

RE:           <<< Note 244.96 by TLE::ABBOT "J. R. "Bob" Dobbs in 92" >>>

   >    Strats so appealing.  Jum seems to like it though.
    
    
  Ayup :-)  When it comes time to buy a new guitar (well, the time is now, but
  the $ aren't there) I'm buyin' a Strat, no questions asked (and I'm buyin'
  American by golly)...Don't know a lot about the technical stuff, but I like
  the sound and the feel of it..




 Jum    

    
    >>Jum seems to like it though.
    
    Maybe.....but Jum told me he likes Telecaster better :^)
    
    The Gibson Les Paul and the Fender Stratocaster are the standard solid
    body electric guitars in the rock world.
    
    Hogan

RE:                      <<< Note 244.99 by AWECIM::RUSSO >>>

    
   > >>Jum seems to like it though.
    
   > Maybe.....but Jum told me he likes Telecaster better :^)
    
    

    Sorry, pal.  Ever since I played a Strat I did a switcheroo :^)

    Anyone ever played an Epiphone?  They were big in the early days of teh
    Beatles (John and George had then circa Ed Sullivan days), and they
    look pretty cool.  They looked huge though.
    
    Scott
    

    I just feel like Scott and maybe others would really benfit from
    perusing the GUTAR notes,..
    
    All of this info and tons more that you might be interested in
    is "in there"..
    
    In a nutshell,.. Scott,.. there are a handful of basic models,...
    
    	American Standard
    	Strat PLus
    	Ultra Strat
    	Squire
    
    	and then all the signature models (Eric Clapton,.. I think Jeff
    Beck has one,.. Theres supposedly a new Stevie Ray Vaughn model but
    I haven't seen it,.. I think thees an Yngwie Malmsteen model)
    
    	Then take all that,.. and add in the 10 gazillion optional
    comnbinations...
    
    	To give you an idea,..I've seen Squires advertised (in Calfornia)
    for $179,.. and some of the signature/custom models are well over
    $1000...
    
    	Don't be duped into thinking that just because it says
    Stratocaster, that its a genuine collectors item worth mega bux
    or anything like that. 
    
    	The pre/post CBS thing has to do with CBS purchasing Fender in
    64-65,... The consensus among players is that the pre-CBS guitars
    (when Leo Fender himself was at the helm) were better quality
    instruments... It gets real confusing because CBS sold Fender
    again later on,.. and so you hav a pre CBS era, a post CBS era,
    and a CBS era... So that stuff all aplies to when they built it,..
    not what model it is...
    
    
    	Without going into major boring history,.. thats it. 
    
    							/Bill
    

    yawnnnnnnnn............huh, what did you say / ?

    I said :
    
    	Wake up and play some Grateful Dead covers dammit!
    
    	:-)
    
    								/
    

    don't tell me man tell da ve DAMN IT !!! :') I can only request one
    song and that is always 1,2,3....I kinda relate to it !
    
    Chris_roadie_wannabe :')
    
    

    But Chris,.. I thought this was "your band",.. :-) :-)
    
    Give da ve suggestions? Naaah,.. First of all  its more fun busting
    a Chris than a dave,.. because a dave can rally massive dave like
    forces,.. whereas a Chris is just a Chris,. now I know I said a while
    back that "Chris is now a dave",.. but you're not that scary yet :-0,..
    
    Also,.. giving dave suggestions is to invite lots of davelike
    retaliatory suggestions like "Hey/ ,. go buy a real guitar!"
    or some such stuff,.. which as you can see from other corners
    of this notesfile that I am getting enough of already :-) :-)
    
    Eating Ibanez's for breakfast indeed....
    
    :-)
    
    I guess I've beat the "play some dead covers dammit" horse to death
    by now though,.. so if anybody else can suggest new and exciting ways
    to get Chris going,.. :-) :-)
    
    								/Bill
    

    don't speak so soon / Ive got a brother named Dave......it could have
    been me....hehehehehehehe
    
    Chris_I_before_E_unless_it_looks_better_that_way

    
    Scott,
    
    I have an Epiphone acoustic 12-string guitar.  I love it....its a
    really nice guitar.  Also pretty good-sized, but not too much so.
    
    However, I haven't found too many others that impressed me.  Although
    they make pretty good electric guitars....
    
    I think you can find a really nice one, or find a really bad one.  Wide
    range of quality there I think....
    
    Hogan

    
    
    	Without knowing better, are these three classic `Hoganisms'?!?! ;^)
    
    	Yes, but no. Good, but bad. Big, but small.
    
    	If I didn't by an excellent Takamine off this guy, *I* wouldn't 
    	trust him!
    
    	:^}   /Ken

    Yah,.. those sound like Hogan to me :-) ;-)
    
    						/the_same_but_different
    

    
    I have another awesome guitar that really sucked.....I loved it, but I
    decided to sell it.  It had this incredibly beautiful tone, and it
    never stayed in tune.  I bought it used, and sold it new for a really
    lousy price!!  I got ripped off, but I was happy about it.  Because I
    got a new broken guitar that plays much nicer now......I hate it.
    
    Hogan

    
    	see what I mean...
    							/:-)
    

    re .111
    
    huh? my eyes are spinning around in my head like on Loony Tunes!
    
    - Dave (sold my Tak acoustic last week, back to my other Japanese
      acoustic until I can scrape up the bucks for Taylor or Martin)
    

    >>- Dave (sold my Tak acoustic last week, back to my other Japanese
    >>acoustic until I can scrape up the bucks for Taylor or Martin)
    
    No!!!!!
    
    Happy scraping :^)
    
    You'll be very pleased with that Taylor or Martin in about *10* years!
    Get Real!!  Get an Alvarez-Yairi! ;^) ;^) ;^)
    
    Hogan

    
    	Re: Hogan's outstanding reply in .111  !!
    
    	That is just CLASSIC!  I'm just dyin' here! 
    	
    	AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhh  ha haaaaa  (:O}}}}}
    
    	Too bad it took me a month and a half to get back to see it!
    
    	/Ken

    I shall never again own a car that was designed, assembled, or
    manufactured in the USA.  If the US expands, breaks up, or is absorbed
    into a world government, this pledge shall apply to the geographic
    region which today makes up the US.
    
    Jamie			notary public seal here -->

    say some more jamie, and this time tell us how you rilly rilly feel.
    
    
    carol

Hey, what's wrong with that great new American car, the Saturn?

oh ... um ... 

;^)

- DC

    
    hey - are you a troublemaker or sump'in?
    
    

I have an Arnesen bumper sticker on my truck - you need to ask?  ;^)

- DC

    
    as a matter of fact, MY Arneson sticker has started to pull away from
    the window.  must be time for her to announce again!
    
    

well, i bought a used american car (mustang) in may '92.  the only repair
work i've done is replace a front caliper and brakes, total cost: $42.00.
17k miles and pretty much no problem.  knock on wood.

    
    I've had american cars for the last 7 years, Chevy, Chevy, Ford.  I've
    had practically no problems (knock on wood also).   I'll continue to
    buy american.
    
    	Mark 
    

re             <<< Note 244.123 by BSS::MNELSON "No Time To Hate" >>>
                             -< Good luck so far >-

    
>    I've had american cars for the last 7 years, Chevy, Chevy, Ford.  I've

And all three were bought new, right?

; ^)

- DC

    It was a $227 command module that rasied my ire.  Not to mention a 1.5
    hr. drive from Sterling to Hudson on Sat. to get it to my mechanic.  It
    stalled about ten times on the way, and took 5-10 minutes to re-start
    each time.
    
    Yes, JC, I probably could've gotten one at a boneyard for $5 and
    installed it myself with one hand (the other holding a homebrew of
    course).  :-)  :-)
    
    As for Saturn, what's the fun of car shopping if you can't dicker?
    
    Jamie

    
    Jamie, was this your VW?
    
    Hogan who had the similar problems under warranty....

    
    My father-in-law gets a new GM every 2 years under the employee
    purchase plan.  He passes down the vehicles at a nice discount when we
    want his old one.   I think American cars are every bit as good in most
    cases.   There are lots of nay-sayers out there with old grudges
    against American cars, an little foundation on the current cars.
    
    I am sure there a a few people out there who'll have the opposite
    opinion.  
    
    	mark

    re .126
    
    No, it's my wife's '89 Cavalier Z24, a car I hate right down to the
    smallest finnegan pin.  There is absolutely nothing I like about this
    car.  My '85 VW with 140k on it has been fine -- it's had a couple of
    problems that VW has taken care of, out of warranty and me being the
    2nd owner.  It's on its last legs, though, since I don't take good care
    of it.
    
    Jamie

    Cavalier Z24, now this car is junk ! it looks nice but my 77 chev
    impala I got for $200 2 years ago will be on the road years after this
    mistake is pushing up weeds.....(knock on steel)
    
    Chris

re       <<< Note 244.125 by STUDIO::IDE "Can't this wait 'til I'm old?" >>>

>    Yes, JC, I probably could've gotten one at a boneyard for $5 and
>    installed it myself with one hand (the other holding a homebrew of
>    course).  :-)  :-)
 
hey, now yer learnin' !!!  nothing like an afternoon brake job or timing belt
job with 6-12 homebrews to help you out....   burp!!!  hope i didn't miss
any bolts!!!!


car repair is a hobby of mine and i enjoy it quite a bit;  ever since i got rid
of my camaro, i've had nothing to work on 'cuz deb's nova doesn't break neither
does my ford...  (that doesn't mean you can bring me your car!!!! :-) ... i
do have a few jobs to do:  rear brakes on both cars and the rear axle in my
mustang (i knew it was bad when i bought it)...  the rear axle job is a fun
one as you need some special tools, etc.  rear brakes --- grunt job!!!

>ever since i got rid
>of my camaro, i've had nothing to work on 'cuz deb's nova doesn't break neither
>does my ford...

does that mean....

uh oh, just saw the next sentence

>  (that doesn't mean you can bring me your car!!!! :-) ... 

never mind...

- rich

    Well My used VW has taken 25K + miles in just about a year and gets 
    over 33 MPG without any effort to keep it under 80. Let's see I've 
    done some brake work a couple o' tune ups and the rear wheel bearing 
    which now need maintinance. Not bad, it's cost me less than 10� a mile
    on purchase price.                                 Oppps. Clutch broke
    about 8 K ago.
    
    	My Ford, I love it when it works! I hate it when it breaks. I've
    only had to replace the transmission twice in 118K, all the springs 
    within the 1st 30 K, Cruise has worked off an on (I like it when it
    works. BUt the 4WD is still good stuff to have. I think the truck is
    great, I just wish Ford liked reliability with what ever it is they 
    percieve to be the Job # quality.
    
    So next time I'll either buy a chevy truck or a VW rocket of some type.
    I think I'll keep the truck for several more years, but I'm gonna burn 
    out that VW, it's got 151K and climbing (Fast!).
    
    	My real delema is how to afford a bigger boat. I really like my 
    American S2 but I want bigger. The America F27 would be a hot boat, but
    I'll bet I could get a French Benateau for less. THen again Hunter is
    American and probably aquireable. The US makes some good boats, but
    the French seem to be much more prosperous with it and have remained in
    business. The boat acquistion will influence th e truck decsion. 
    Maybe I'll just get sails for my little boat.
    
    Geoff 

    Ahhhhh Geofff....now we're talking....how 'bout a Privilege 48 and
    enough $$$ to go around the world once or twice????  *;')

    I'm not so sure that the Privilege strikes me as a circumnavigator.
    But there are a couple of 45' Frerrs which were built in '91 modeled 
    after the open 60' class. Almost all lines led to the cockpit, two head
    sails on rollers, changeable water ballast, multiple autohelms,
    permanently strung single line preventers and a luxury living interior
    make this boat something that I'd feel good taking around the planet.
    Also, up in Marblehead on a mooring near the entrance to the harbor is
    Great America II. That's a tri I'd like to take around the world, but 
    I really don't know which of these boat choices are further out of my 
    reach than the other. But I saw one of those Frerrs for sale recently
    so that at least makes it up for sale.  
    	I'm some how more interested in a tri than a cat. Must be my
    monohull experience, which today I'm still happy to own.
    
    Geoff

    Yea...you're right...for some reason i thought the Privilege was built
    out of Annapolis, but now that you mention it...Farnce (SP???*;') does 
    ring a bell....
    
    The Frerrs does sound nice...have to give it a look sea....
    
    Saw a couple Privilege's in the Crusin' mag i was checkin out the
    other day...they were charters up for sale...88' and a 89' i think.
    around $150 - $200K....which when you consider they cost $350K new,
    doesn't seem too bad.....
    
    Well i'm with you Geoff....i'm savin' my $$$ and MAYBE someday i'll find 
    myself with enough cash to buy a boat outright and just LEAVE......
    
    ....someday,
    
    		  			dugo