Conference rdvax::grateful

>	When you look to the Northwest into Vermont, what is that mountain
>that really sticks out?


	MOUNT MANSFIELD!!

	Sorry, private joke.  Seriously, it is Ascutney you see as the most
prominent peak to the northwest from Monadnock.

Fog
	

    Tim Dalton and I went up to Mt. Whiteface last weekend with the intent
    to hike and camp on Whiteface and Passaconaway. Friday night we spent
    at a campground on the Kanc. Nice bright full-moonish evening,
    overnight temps around -15 F. Saturday, we hiked up Mt. Whiteface
    and encountered ice from the bottom of the trail all the way up.
    
    About 100 feet from the summit, we encountered a series of near vertical
    ice walls about 20' high altogether that blocked our path. Unfortunately,
    I didn't bring an ice axe thinking that I wouldn't need one on a summit
    that is a mere 15' over 4000'. Nevertheless, I tried to scale the wall
    and haul our packs up after me. I fell and slid down about 14' twice
    (once with a full pack, once without) and made it up the 1st 14' of the
    wall on the third try only to be blocked by another 6' segment of 
    vertical ice with no handholds, no ice axe and a long way down if I 
    fell again.
    
    That was the last obstacle in our path and I could see the summit from
    there. We decided to 86 it and bivvy for the night just below the iced
    ledges. By the time we set up the tent we were too cold because of
    the high winds to remain outside and build a fire. After about 3 hours 
    of trying to thaw out in our sleeping bags we tried to make dinner. 
    Unfortunately there was no water and no snow cover to melt (plenty of 
    solid ice, though). We had to settle for thawing out hot dogs, bagels 
    and cookies - our only food that didn't need water to cook. After which 
    we settled in for a frigid night of -25 F... *not* counting the wind chill 
    caused by the 50-60 mph gusts of wind all night. 
    
    The next day, we decided to pack it in for lack of water to cook food. 
    Not to mention minor frostbite burns on our fingers and toes. Well, maybe 
    next month we'll get more hospitable temperatures. 
    
    - Gerry

    what....no margaritas???
    
    rich

re: <<< Note 235.3 by WFOV11::BUTZE "Quick beat of an icy heart..." >>>
    
    >what....no margaritas???
    
    No. the liquor bottles were frozen shut.
    
    - Gerry

>                       <<< Note 235.2 by SCOONR::GLADU >>>
>                     -< Do we really need a Hiking note? >-
>After which 
>    we settled in for a frigid night of -25 F... *not* counting the wind chill 
>    caused by the 50-60 mph gusts of wind all night. 
    
>Well, maybe 
>    next month we'll get more hospitable temperatures. 
    
    Yeah, I can see where you'd have a better chance for that in February.
    :-).
    
    tim
    

Ger, I'm glad there are people such as yourself and Tim D. who like to camp 
in -25 degree temps...



...so I don't have to do it! 8^O  Hats off to ya mon, takes some true 
intestinal fortitude.

Scott_who_got_minor_frostbite_skiing_on_Saturday_in_ABOVE_zero_temps

PS - Just out of curiosity, what types of clothing to you use in such 
conditions?

    Gerry asks if we really need a hiking note...then enters a brutal
    entry! %^)
    
    Tom Lawlor, Divide Dave, Glenn Ingalls and myself skied Hoosier Pass
    Saturday, about 12,000 ft. This is in the hiking note because we had to
    take our skis off and hike up a mt. to get to the snow on top. %^)
    We sat on a bristle cone Pine that was prob. 1000 years old and had
    lunch, then skied down the hard pack (mostly on our butts or faces)
    back into the trees where there was actually deep powder. That nite
    Glenn and I did tours around Tumbledown under the moon!!!! By the
    second tour I was completely inebriated and could barely stand up on my
    skis much less do the hills. So we quit 'round midnight. Next morning
    at 8AM it was 3 degrees outside Tumbledown, 70 inside %^)...
    we went sking about 9:30
    back to the top of Hoosier with Divides SO Juli, stayed in the deep
    powder in the trees all morning. GRATE RUNS! 
    

    the only underwear to wear is DAMART!!!! That's what those fools that
    skied across antartica wore as well as the nuts that dogsledded across 
    as well as what the climbers that do the Himilayas wear as well as
    thoses fools that ski Hoosier Pass. 
    RFB (with damart balaclava, gloves, socks, union suit...)

re: Note 235.5  SMURF::GRADY 
    
    >Yeah, I can see where you'd have a better chance for that in February.
    
    hey, anything is possible in new England. :-)
    
    
re: Note 235.6 MR4DEC::WENTZELL 
    
    >Just out of curiosity, what types of clothing to you use in such conditions

    Surprisingly little...
    
    head - Capilene balaclava.
    
    hands - Layered mitten setup of my own design - thin polypro liners,
    wooll army glove liners, ragg wool mittens and a gore-tex shell. I lost
    my shells last year, thereby causing my gloves to get wet, hence the minor 
    frostbite. For the most part, I only wore the poly liners with the army 
    glove liners.
    
    top - Thermax LJ's, polypro pile jacket and a thin storm shell. I added
    a sweater when not hiking.
    
    bottom - Thermax longjohns and wool army pants.
    
    feet - 1 layer of thin polypro liner socks, 1-2 layers of thin wool/capilene
    blend liner socks, 1 pair of wool socks and regular leather boots. Really 
    need to invest in some cold weather mountaneering boots someday.
        
    Slept just in my balaclava, LJ's and wool socks - and sleeping bag, of
    course.
    
    Gerry

    Gee gerG
    
    	Sounds like fun. Sorry I missed it.
    
    	:-)
    						/warm_and_toasty
    

re: Note 235.10 by STAR::SALKEWICZ 
    
    > what posesses thee? 
    
    Toughening of the soul, I guess. It's NBD, really. I've been doing it
    for almost 25 years now. My Mom actually called me this morning and
    asked if I went camping. :-)
    
    Gerry

    ...and I thought balaclava was only a Greek pastry...I had no idea you
    could WEAR the stuff! ;-)
    
    tim
    

    Ger You Nut! Buy some damart!!!! %^)
                                        rfb

Re:                      <<< Note 235.8 by CLOSUS::BARNES >>>

>    the only underwear to wear is DAMART!!!! That's what those fools that

	Gee, and I thought the only underwear to wear was FOG'S!

:-)

    Fog,
    
    Better stay away from balaclava, you may attract unwanted attention
    from Slash...
    
    ;-)
    

    so does this balaclavalavaabadaba stick to your skin so you become a 
    pastery?or do you roll in honey then put on the pastery?
    
    confused
    rich

I would imagine you'd roll in honey and then nuts and then..........

    this could go into "Once upon a time"...or if I put my follow on
    I'd be in BIG trouble......
    
    
    rich

What campground along the Kanc did you camp at?  Are most of those CGs open
'year around?  I might be into some early season camping, but not when it is
below 10 degress, mainly because I do not have the clothes for that weather.

    ya'll are right...it's a fallafell one wears on ones head, not a
    balaclava...
                rfb

re: Note 235.19 by ZENDIA::FERGUSON 

>What campground along the Kanc did you camp at?  
    
    I believe it was called Blackberry Crossing.
    
    >Are most of those CGs open 'year around?  
    
    Some are, some aren't. Of the WMNF camps I know of that are open,
    there's Big Rock, Hancock and the one we stayed at. There is an
    $8.00 fee. The State campgrounds are open with no fee and no 
    facilities.
    
    re: balaclava
    
    didn't take long for this note to digress into silliness. :-/
    
    re: rfb and his Damart (tm)
    
    My expedition weight Thermax did just fine at -25 below and completely
    wicked away my sweat faster than anything I've ever worn. I paid $55
    for the tops & bottoms ccombined. How much did that Damart cost? ;-)
    
    Gerry

    sorry about the silliness...we are facing big cuts in WFO and I am 
    blowing off steam...again sorry.
    
    rich

I don't think sorry should be necessary ... BUT I am sorry (really I am) if
my silliness bothered anyone.  I was just having fun, and letting off steam
like Rich.  Let loose and relax and all that.

Lisa

    re: -.1
    
    Sorry isn't necessary. Just commenting that it didn't take long
    for things to get silly. :-) 

Glad to hear it Ger,  I figured you were just a little upset at not having
thought of bringing Fog's underwear camping with you.  :-)

	Just in case there's anyone who is really wondering, a balaclava is
a knit hat that comes all the way down to cover one's neck, and has an
opening for all, or a portion of the face.  Baklava is a pastry.

Mark

>            <<< Note 235.26 by 11SRUS::MARK "Waltzing with Bears" >>>
>
>	Just in case there's anyone who is really wondering, a balaclava is
>a knit hat that comes all the way down to cover one's neck, and has an
>opening for all, or a portion of the face.  Baklava is a pastry.

    Oh.  Never mind.
    
    ;-)
    
    tim
    

    My damarts cost about they same Ger, Union suit 55$ on sale, upper and
    bottoms seperate bout 50$. Socks 11$/pair, glove liners 10$, 
    pastry (balaclava) 13$ ..thermax is GOOD stuff, IMO not as good as
    damart
    rfb
    
    disclaimer...I have zero body fat on me (except my beerbelly)
    I NEED maximum protection from the elements when I'm out there,
    that's why I don't scrimp on equipment/clothing. I've been way too cold
    way too many times!

Yep....he's a scrawny one, alright!

	:^)

Can someone please tell me what a crampon is?

thanks,

adam

    
    a crampon is a metal piece with spikes that straps to your shoe and
    helps you grip on ice...
    
    kind of like tire chains for your feet...
    
    					da ve

da ve,

Jim thanks you for answering that last question.  I know that he has been
straining his little braincells to come up with something witty but alas,
the truth prevailed and he can put his mind back to rest.

:-)

	O.k. here we go:

			*******DEChead day-hike!********

	When:	This saturday, Feb 8, meet at say, 1:00?

	Where:	Mt Monadnock (trailhead TBD {not old toll road, I've done it
		too many times this year}: consensus will decide which is right)

	Why:	Need a HIKE.

	Who:	At least myself, gerryg and Jamie; you too??

Bring a sled if its snows between now and then (yeah, right).  :-)

    If we do Monadnock again, how's about doing it from the north
    this time. Along, say, one of the longer ridges. A 1.5 hour
    day hike just doesn't do it for me. Maybe pack-a-lunch? 
    
    - Gerry

	I might be up for this.  I climbed up that toll road a couple of
weeks ago.  If that trail is any indication to the amount of ice one can
expect from other routes, I highly recommend crampons.  My bro and father
had a touch time coming down while I just kinda walked down the ice with
my new xmas crampons.

	1 pm?  How about earlier if we do a longer route?

JC, climb depends on work, unforetunately.

>	1 pm?  How about earlier if we do a longer route?

O.k. by me.

   re:               <<< Note 235.35 by SCOONR::GLADU >>>

    >If we do Monadnock again, how's about doing it from the north
    >this time. Along, say, one of the longer ridges. A 1.5 hour
    >day hike just doesn't do it for me. Maybe pack-a-lunch? 
    
    I'm open to hikes other than Monadnock, I just mentioned it to Fog
    'cause it's a default.  One I've wanted to do for a while is from the
    Audobon Society land in Princeton to Wachusett and back, or to
    Redemption Rock if we spot a car.  1.5 hrs.??  You're not factoring in
    hours on the summit basking in sun, rain, snow, ice, buzz, etc..  :^)
    
    From N of Monadnock, you've got: Marlboro Tr. (2.4 mi.), Dublin Tr.
    (2.2 mi.) & Pumpelly (4.5 mi.) where (1 way to summit).  Appropriate
    tag-alongs might be butts, Irish Whiskey, and bread, respectively.  :^)
    
    I will, of course, be wearing my "I Followed Fog And All I Got Was Lost
    And This G'Damn T-Shirt."
    
    Jamie
    
    

re: <<< Note 235.38 by STUDIO::IDE "now it can be told" >>>
    
    >I will, of course, be wearing my "I Followed Fog And All I Got Was Lost
        
    That's nothing... *I've* got the dadburn merit badge for *that*. :-/
    
    A couple of other suggestions for a hike would be Mt. Watatic or Mt.
    Grace. I've never done either one.
    
    - Gerry

I've never done this before, so I've got a few questions:

1.) If I want to go, as a gross amateur, would I (or you) be better off if I just
    stay home and watch TV with a six pack?  Pertinent note: I hate TV sports.
    Please be honest now - I'd prefer that to having you wait to be honest on
    Saturday afternoon. ;-)

2.) Do I need any special equipment other than warm clothes, hiking shoes and my
    ass?  Like, do I need a backpack, oxygen, crampons (these sound like
    something very uncomfortable that you get by eating bad chili), or an ice
    gonkalator?

3.) Will I get back in time to get to Nashua for the Northern Lights bluegrass
    concert, and, if so, will I want to?

4.) Should I wait until after I have updated my will?

5.) While I have your attention, anybody wanna go see some hot bluegrass?

I'm just wondering if I should try to get involved in one of these that doesn't
sound like a major life-risking adventure.  Or is it?

tim
   

RE: Tee shirts and merit badges:  I'm touched, rilly.   :-)

RE:        <<< Note 235.40 by SMURF::GRADY "tim grady @ZKO3-3/U14" >>>

Tim, I guess your answers depend on where the hike happens to be and how long:

I for one would like to keep things relatively simple, easy, and short 
hike-wise, even though Gerry and Jamie and JC seem to be ready willing and 
able to built the whole Ho Chi Minh Trail on Saturday. :-)

I agree that Monadnock would probably be too much and require extra equipment, 
and would lean towards one of the other suggested, under 6 mile roundtrip hikes.

Lets here more about them?

    Hiking sounds fun, but from what I've seen this season I really think I
    want a set of crampons. I should have 'em anyway but instead I got
    climbing skins for my skis. I'd be really psyched if it was skiable,
    but the snow is really non existant this year. 
    
    	I don't know of any of the mountains other than Manadnok (sp?)
    which I haven't been to in years. My mind places Watatic about the size
    of Wachusett and that's not much of a hike. But I've got to back that 
    up and no way of knowing really. 
    
    I don't know but I'll keep it in mind and an eye on this note.
    
    Geoff

	FWIW, I did Monadnock yesterday.  I went up the Old Toll Road to the
White Arrow Trail (I'd never gone that route in winter).  From the half-way
house site to treeline I would definately recommend crampons (which aren't
uncomfortable at all).  There were long stretches of trail with a dusting of
snow, and no footprints - just lots of little crampon marks.  I did, at one
point, see a set of footprints come out of the woods onto the ice covered
trail.  There was a smear from someone sliding downhill quite a ways from that
point.  Nice and clear at the top.

	BTW, Tim, I don't like TV sports, either.

Mark

    re .-2
    
    >	I don't know of any of the mountains other than Manadnok (sp?)
    >which I haven't been to in years. My mind places Watatic about the size
    >of Wachusett and that's not much of a hike. But I've got to back that 
    >up and no way of knowing really. 
    
    Watatic is probably lower than Wachusett, but the direct way up is
    steeper and longer than any of the Wachusett trails I've been on.  It's
    a great hike -- you can do a loop going up Watatic (it's a power line,
    and the old Mid-State Trail), a side trip to E. Watatic, then over to
    Nutting Hill, down the new MS Tr. and back to the car by walking a mile
    along the road.  Watatic has great views from the summit and you pass
    over an old ski area on the trip.  The MS Tr. and Wapack Tr. in the
    area could possibly be added in to extend the trip.  Watatic or E.
    Watatic would be a great place for lunch and stare at the clouds.
    
    I've got to take issue with the "not much of a hike" statement.  The
    more I hike, the more I realize that distances and elevations don't
    much matter.  I feel like I'm on an adventure when I'm 1/4 mi. into a
    Wachusett hike or 8 miles from the nearest road in the Whites.  Of
    course, I'm not suggesting we do Washington instead of Wachusett
    though.  :^)  :^)
    
    I don't have crampons, or boots that will take them, so I sometimes
    carry a x-c ski pole to help me over icy stretches.  Believe it or not,
    there's a few tricky spots on Wachusett where I've been very glad for
    my pole (keep yer smart-ass comments to yourselves  :^).
    
    Jamie

    re: Tim
    
    Just dress warm, don't follow Fog and, from the looks of things,
    don't hike in front of Jamie and his pole. :-)

    and definitely check out the Northern Lights show if you have tix...
    they are rilly fine...
    
    					da ve

RE:           <<< Note 235.44 by STUDIO::IDE "now it can be told" >>>

    Watatic sounds groovey to me (barring other less civilized suggestions)...

	What town 'n state izzit in?

	     last question:  If a Pol polled Jamie, would jamie pull his pole?

:-)			

    re: Watatic...
    
        ... has my vote. 

    re:       <<< Note 235.47 by SPICE::PECKAR "Shadow skiing the apocalypse" >>>

>RE:           <<< Note 235.44 by STUDIO::IDE "now it can be told" >>>

 >   Watatic sounds groovey to me (barring other less civilized suggestions)...

 >	What town 'n state izzit in?

    Ashburnham, MA, right on the NH border.  A small detour on the trail
    can bring us (supposedly, I haven't done it) to an old granite marker
    marking the state line.  This hike does indeed lead us to areas of
    historical significance.  Suggested reading includes: "We Ate Rocks:
    The Brief Lives of New England's First Settlers" by Ayre Roe Targitt.
    
    The hike starts on Rte. 119, reachable from 101/12.  The map shows a
    road called "Children of the Woods Tavern Road" nearby -- sounds 
    interesting!!
 
    >	     last question:  If a Pol polled Jamie, would jamie pull his pole?
    
    Even Lech Walesa (a Pole's Pol) couldn't get me to unsheath it -- only
    a tricky patch of ice can coax me to take pole in hand.  Just for that,
    I'm not bringing it and will do my best to fall and not get up and take
    you with me.
    
    Jamie

Jamie:
	in these times, I think your smart to keep a sheath on your pole at all
times ;^)

    	I knew there was something about the 8th but I wasn't sure so I
    just blew it off as the next number that's a Saturday. Then I was also
    gonna make some comment about Sundays being the day I'd rather hike 
    'cause lots of Saturdays seem to get well consumed. Then I logged off 
    and a few hours later remembered the awards dinner for racing last
    summer. I don't know if we took anything, but I think we got several
    thirds. Never been to one before, so at worst it's a free meal. 
    	But!! Just Wait'll next year rolls around!!!! We'll be honed and 
    sharp on a tack. Yes, we're out for bullet spree next summer! Or we'll
    certainly have fun trying.
         
    	<| <-that's a small sailboat for people with smiley faces :-)
    
    Geoff
    

    This has great potential for a blues number:
    
    I got a fiberglass pole, baby,
    Wanna skate in your tracks all night long.
    Well, I ain't gonna make no sitzmarks,
    Just gonna kick and stride while I sing this song.
    
    I checked it out last night, and the Watatic loop is about 3 mi.; the
    side trip to the MA/NH line will add ~ 1 mi.  The loop starts on Rte.
    119 in Ashburnham, 0.7 mi. west of the 119/101 junction.  The trail up
    Watatic is very steep and might be treacherous if icy, but there's
    woods on either side for bushwacking.  The summit of Watatic will be
    perfect for lunch.
    
    Jamie

>    	But!! Just Wait'll next year rolls around!!!! We'll be honed and 
>    sharp on a tack. Yes, we're out for bullet spree next summer! Or we'll
>    certainly have fun trying.
   
Just when I thought I had all this jargon figured out about greek pastry and
crampons (hey, if you eat your bakalava, do you get crampons?), along
comes a whole new bunch of cryptic metaphors.;-)

Oh well.  I'm gonna check out a map and see if I can tag along.  What's the
start time for this adventure?  I have to allow for a couple hours between the
end of the hike and the beginning of the Northern lights show, for a stop
at the St. Joseph's Hospital Emergency room to pick up some steroids and a few
hits of oxygen! ;-)

tim

P.S.  I'm actually excited about this, but it's just too much fun making jokes
about it to miss the opportunity.  I promise not to whine too much. :-)

    re .40, .-1
    
   >        <<< Note 235.40 by SMURF::GRADY "tim grady @ZKO3-3/U14" >>>
   >                     -< Warning: Amateur questions >-

    Warning: Amateur Answers!
    
>I've never done this before, so I've got a few questions:

>1.) If I want to go, as a gross amateur, would I (or you) be better off if I just
>    stay home and watch TV with a six pack?  Pertinent note: I hate TV sports.
>    Please be honest now - I'd prefer that to having you wait to be honest on
>    Saturday afternoon. ;-)

    Wouldn't you rather hike with a six pack?  :^)  Besides, I'll be
    packing a TV to catch the all-important Arena Football Draft on ESPN. 
    :^)  :^)
    
>2.) Do I need any special equipment other than warm clothes, hiking shoes and my
>    ass?  Like, do I need a backpack, oxygen, crampons (these sound like
>    something very uncomfortable that you get by eating bad chili), or an ice
>    gonkalator?
    
    Warm wind-proof clothes and a hat.  Plus a knapsack to carry lunch,
    water, and warmer clothes (if we stop for lunch you'll find that you'll
    quickly get cold due to sweat).  Ice gonkalators are highly
    recommended.  :^)
    
    Unless you're grossly out of shape, you shouldn't have any problems
    with this hike.  If we're gonna do a summit lunch, we should probably
    hit the trail by 1 or so, you should be able to make it back to Nashua
    in plenty-o'-time (so long as you remember not to follow Fog -- he's
    older, but his sense of direction is no better).
    
    Jamie
    

By my standards, Watatic is very easy.  The only thing that will make it hard
is lots of ice on the trail.  Count on ice; it'll be there.  However, the ice
will make for some good laughs as folks slip, slide, and attempt to ascend the
mountain.

For those of you who do not know, Watatic used to be a ski area.  I remember
skiing there long ago.  You'll see parts of old t-bars, lift shacks, etc 
near the top.

The top of Watatic is bare providing plenty of fine views if the weather is
clear.  It makes for a good lunch place only if the wind isn't blowing (wind
this time of year tends to be cold!).  If the wind persists, we can find 
another place.

re: beginner hiker.

If you don't smoke cigs, and are in reasonable health, you should have no
problem with this hike.  Be sure to bring a backpack containing extra clothes,
some food, a decent jackknife, and, if you can, some sort of first aid kit.
I recommend bringing an extra t-shirt because you will most likely sweat a
bit on the way up, and when that wind hits you at the top, you'll get cold
fast.  Change out of the wet t-shirt, into a dry one, and you'll be a happy
camper.  Also, bring extra socks, especially if your feet tend to sweat.
On the way up, you'll most likely not wear all of your clothing because your
body is going to be working.  Once at the top and in relaxation mode, you'll
need to add more clothing to keep warm - going down is also not taxing on
the body - hence more clothes might be needed to stay warm.  The main thing
is: BE AWARE OF THE WEATHER and BRING MORE THEN YOU NEED.  As they say,
"better safe then sorry."  Sometimes people laugh at the pack I bring; but,
they quickly stop laughing when I pull out my gator, scarf, goggles, etc when
the weather sucks while they freeze.

I recommend starting at 11:30 - 12:00 or so from the trail that leaves
from route 119.  I should take about 60 mins on the way up (depending on
the ice) ...

I'm not sure I can make it due to the loads and piles of work I have to do,
but, I will see...

Tim, this is a good hike for a beginner - not too challenging, the rewards
are decent (nice view at the top), and the risks are very minimal.  Go for 
it!  

	JC

    I remember skiing there as well and I have hiked it (before a 
    Bonnie Raitt show that was there years ago). Tim you'll have fun.
    Good luck to all.
    
    rich

    re .55
    
>they quickly stop laughing when I pull out my gator
    
    Having been the recent victim of innuendos, I won't touch this, but I
    have to ask: what's a gator?  Do you mean gaiters that cover your boots
    or something else?
    
    I agree about being real conservative in bringing extra clothes.
    
    Jamie

    HA!  yeah, i must admit, i had images of a large, saw-toothed reptile
    being pulled out of a backpack too!  :^) :^) :^)
    
    set voice/mode=bullwinkle
    
    "hey Rocky!!  watch me pull some trail snax out of my pack!"
    
    					da ve

I'm bummed out.  Last night my ex called me from Florida to say she wasn't going 
to be taking the kids for the weekend as we previously agreed.  There's no way
I can go on the hike now.  If I can find a sitter, I can still hope to make the
Northern Lights show, but that's a BIG if.

The woes of single parenthood.  Luckily, Karin (I hate the word girlfriend, but
it's not as yuppy as 'significant other') will be up here for good next month
and I'll have a little more slack for such things.

Sorry folks, you'll have to focus on picking on Fog for this trip. ;-)

tim

    you mean that greek pastry that one wears, Marv? That's called a
    pop-over I believe...%^)
                            rfb

Can't you guys ever be serious!?

;-) ;-)

tim

    Here's some pseudo-directions, since I don't know where you're all
    coming from:
    
    Mt. Watatic is in Ashburnham, Mass., just over the NH border from New
    Ipswich.  The mountain has a fire tower on its summit which is easy to
    see from the road.
    
    The trail starts on Mass. Rte. 119, 0.7 mi. west of the 119/101
    junction.  Travelling west, the trailhead is on the right -- park
    perpendicular to the 119.  About another 0.7 mi. further W on 119 is
    another trailhead, not to be confused with ours (if you see the
    Mid-State Tr. hitting 119 on the left, you're at the wrong one).  Ours
    isn't rilly a trail anymore (used to be the Wapack Tr., but that was
    relocated to meet the MS Tr.), just a steep, direct path to the summit
    under powerlines (I think the lines are underground and just the poles
    remain).  There's a shelter up there if anyone wants to stay overnight. 
    :^)  :^)
    
    If you need better directions, tell me where you're coming from and
    I'll try . . .
    
    Time: High noon ok by everyone?  (Everyone seems to mean 2-3 people
    right now -- how do we ever organize camping trips when it takes 50
    replies to get 3 people for a hike?!?  :^)
    
    Jamie

    
>    right now -- how do we ever organize camping trips when it takes 50 >   
replies to get 3 people for a hike?!?  :^) 
    
	Well, lesse, here's how we do it:  We just make sure the weather is
warm but not too hot, there are no black flies, there are no dead toors, and
that there are no Decus conventions scheduled. 

Thats how.   :-)

    Well you can count me out since I've been sick for the last 3 days
    and I'm not up for any forays into the outdoors. Besides, I don't
    want to contaminate Charlie-O.
    
    - Gerry

    So, who's going?

moi.

	What is the contingency plan if it snows???

    re .-1
    
>	What is the contingency plan if it snows???
    
    We could probably take this to e-mail 'cause I think it's gonna be just
    us two wild-n'-crazy face-planters.
    
    Anyways, I think the chance of significant snow is vanishingly small,
    but since I like to plan for every contingency (I still have that
    emergency pocket protector, though I pray to God we won't need it),
    how's this:
    
    I'm up for x-c skiing if there's enough snow.  Know any good places?
    
    If there's not enough snow for skiing, but too much for driving to
    Ashburnham, we could do a Wachusett trip like the one I mentioned
    (Audobon Sanctuary to summit & back).
    
    We could always conquer Mt. Pisgah (I finally found the summit -- what
    a thrill!!)  :^)  :^)
    
    There's always the Sunset Grill & Tap in Allston (Sam Adams cream Stout
    on tap)  :^)  :^).
    
    Jamie

    I vote for the Sam Adams Cream Stout!!!!!!
rfb

    Did I hear someone mention Sam Adams Cream Stout? :-)

re -.1, Hey, yer 'sposed to be sick!  

It settled then.

	See you all in Allston.

:-)

re:   <<< Note 235.72 by 58287::BELKIN "the slow one now will later be fast" >>>
   
>re -.1, Hey, yer 'sposed to be sick!  
    
    Well, I probably shouldn't go hiking, but I can face plant with just
    as much finesse indoors. :-)

Looks like inclement weather for Saturday.  I personally would not feel good 
about bringing novice hikers on a hike where weather is a factor!

RE: Gator

I meant Gaitor... sometimes I do hike with an alligator if I'm expecting lots
of blackflies 

	:-)

    Re: Contingencey plan if it snows?
    
    Obviously, bring a pair of gators
    
    {B*) 
    Geoff
    

    Since I've got asymmetric gators, does that mean I have crookediles?

    Well, Fog, GerryG and I made it to Watatic Saturday.  The hike up was
    easier than I expected (no ice) and pretty due to hoarfrost
    clinging to everything.  The summit was stark and coated in frost; 
    there were no views because of the snow, but with some imagination you
    could make out New Haven shimmering on the horizon.  Fog tried to bring
    down the fire tower, but we convinced him to save his strength for the
    hike down.
    
    We missed the shelter and had lunch on Nutting Hill, then side-trekked
    to the state line.  The monument marking the line has a groove down the
    center so the woods creatures know which side to stay on.  We then
    continued down to 119, with Fog taking the only fall of the day.  The
    drive home sucked, but we made it.
    
    We'll have to do it again in clearer weather.
    
    Jamie

    The hoarfrost made the hike. In all my 24 years worth of winter hiking, 
    I've never seen hoarfrost cover *everything* like that. It was a nice
    easygoing, relaxed hike. Glad I went. In fact, I went hiking fri
    nite (midnight ice-pond laser hike) and yesterday afternoon as well
    (Charlie-O's 1st sled hike). 
    
    next up: How's about a grey knob run later this month, hmmmm? 
    
    - Gerry

Yes, the hike was most pleasurable.

	Actually, it was kind of strange. The tempurature was around 27� F and
the air was supersaturated with moisture, causing the afformentioned Hoar
Frost. You couldn't see your breath. The frost was forming as we hiked, and
occasionally I noticed it forming on ourselves as well. On the trees, it took
the shape of pointy quartz-like crystals extending up to an inch off its
substrate, and pointing against the direction of the wind. 

	

    re:                   <<< Note 235.79 by RAISE::GLADU >>>

    
    >next up: How's about a grey knob run later this month, hmmmm? 
    
    I'm interested.  Then again, I'm feeling particularly stupid this
    morning.
    
    BTW, I have your hat and will pass it on to Fog this week.
    
    Jamie

	Does hoarfrost = rimeice ?

	I know we've had this discussion before ... I just forget.  I've
	seen some impressive looking rimeice on Mt. Wash in Nov. and
	early April.

    Hoar frost != rime ice. 
    
    Jamie, that must be Fog's hat. I have mine.

    
    someone say greyknob???
    
    yeah, yeah, i can hear it now from Ger and fog...  "here's da ve again,
    getting psyched for a hike that he'll probably back out of..."  :^)
    
    i rilly do want to go!!!  it just hasn't been working out for me at all
    this winter...  :^(
    
    					da ve_the_non-hiker_this_winter

Thanks, Marv,

I should be getting back into town that day, from a short trip, albeit a long
drive.  If I'm not ready to drop down dead, I'll make a point of getting there.

Thanks for thinking of me.

tim

  Howdy-

  I'm sacrificing my relative anonymity here, but what the hell...I never
  could resist temptation. :^) 

  I live in Princeton and climb Mt. Wachusett often.  There are trails all
  over the mountain and you can get a pretty long hike in if you know enough
  trails to get creative.  I also have some maps of the mountain (hard copy).
  If anyone's interested send me mail and I'll ship one out inter-office style.

  I usually climb with friends on the weekends during the winter -> you're more
  than welcome to join us, just give me the high sign.  

  Have a grateful day!

   Simone

  

Neat little segment on winter camping/hiking in Mt Washington Valley last night 
on Chronicle (7:30pm, CH 5 Boston).  Actually, the entire show was on winter in 
the White Mountains/Mt. Washington Valley, and one segment was on hiking.  The 
reasons people gave for camping in winter as opposed to summer were pretty 
much verbatim to the reasons Ger and others gave in here (no bugs, less people,
etc.) and no one complained about the cold 8^).  I wish I had taped it, it was 
one of the better half hours I've seen on TV in a while (besides Cheers, of 
course ;^).

Scott

RE:         <<< Note 235.88 by MR4DEC::WENTZELL "Expert Only <><>" >>>
                          -< Anyone else catch this? >-

>pretty 
>much verbatim to the reasons Ger and others gave in here 


		Really? they said it doesn't hurt yer butt as much when you 
fall in the snow and that you don't hafta worry about your beers getting cold???

    Winter hiking is one of the only times I worry about my beers getting
    cold. Alcohol has always been the liquid intoxicant of choice, it
    doesn't freeze as quick and weighs less per punch. Beer does taste a
    lot better if you can keep it thawed. But what d' I know I've only done
    a couple or few.
    
    Geoff

RE:                 <<< Note 235.91 by XCUSME::MACINTYRE >>>

	Marv. Grate that you stuck to it!  Amazing, ain't it, how the mind can 
	take over the body and get you places your body wasn't at all designed 
	to be? The Will To Summit can be an awesome high.
	
	Sounds like I would have bailed; congrats on yer successful ascent, and
	welcome to the winter wunderland bus!

Fog	

    re: "our need to stay in touch with our physical self"
                                ya can say that again!!!
    outa shape rfb

    
    Gerry,
    Way back in .9 of this note you mentioned "polypro" clothing for
    hiking.  Is this a brand name or a generic name?  I have the same
    question about "capilene" (sp?).  thanks
    
    tom

    re: Grey Knob
    
    I'd like to go. No takers yet. It would have to be this weekend or
    next weekend. We are also planning a trip to Tuckerman's Ravine on
    the first weekend of April. My companions will be skiing, I will
    probably climb Lion Head up to Washington. Could use company on this
    trip. We'll be camping at the shelters at Hermit Lake. 
    
    
    re: polypro
    
    It's a generic name. I use the term loosely to encompass Capilene,
    Lifa, Thermax Thermolactyl, and any other wickable synthetic undies. 
    I prefer Capilene and Thermax, myself. rfb swears by the thermolactyl
    stuff. Capilene (tm) is a registered trademark of Patagonia (tm). Thermax 
    (tm) is a registered trademark of Duofold (tm) and Thermolactyl (tm) is
    a trademark of Damart (tm). They all pretty much come in three different 
    weights - light, medium and expedition weight (and variants thereof).
    
    - gerry

    re:                  <<< Note 235.96 by SCOONR::GLADU >>>

    >re: Grey Knob
    
    >I'd like to go. No takers yet. It would have to be this weekend or
    >next weekend. We are also planning a trip to Tuckerman's Ravine on
    >the first weekend of April. My companions will be skiing, I will
    >probably climb Lion Head up to Washington. Could use company on this
    >trip. We'll be camping at the shelters at Hermit Lake. 
    
    I thought Da ve and I said we were interested, but maybe not.  Anyway,
    I'm interested, but would have to seriously think about whether I'd be
    in over my head.  Bad weather could also cause me to back out at the
    last minute.  I don't know if next weekend is time enough for me to get
    psyched up.
    
    Hermit Lake sounds cool, though weather would play a big role.  I
    thought Lion's Head was usually closed due to the snow arch, or am I
    thinking of a different trail?
    
    BTW, now is the best time to pick up winter clothing at bargain prices. 
    Lahout's had nice Lifa polypro longs for $12 a piece!
    
    Jamie

    Da ve id hedging as usual. :-) Grey Knob is within your capabilities.
    It's just below treeline. Summiting Adams is what you have to worry
    about.

    >trip. We'll be camping at the shelters at Hermit Lake. 
    
    
    	Sounds like my kind of place!!!
    

re:             <<< Note 235.97 by STUDIO::IDE "now it can be told" >>>
       
    >I thought Lion's Head was usually closed due to the snow arch, or am I
    >thinking of a different trail?
    
    The snow arch is above Tuck's headwall. Lion's Head is, I believe, the 
    traditional winter route up Washington. 

    yeah, da ve is hedging like he has done all winter...  :^/   what can
    i say?  too much stuff happenin' this year i guess...  that and the
    fact that most of my winter gear has to be replaced has me being
    really choosy about when i can go...
    
    polypro...  not REALLY a generic term, but it is the way Gerryg uses
    it!  :^)  polypropylene is a specific synthetic fiber that is very much
    like the pateneted ones that Ger mentioned...  good stuff...  i've used
    it a lot, but it's pretty much "low-end" stuff now with some of the
    other blends that are out now...
    
    this weekend is out for me for a trip...  wanna spend time with my
    daughter...  next weekend is bad too...  wedding to go to...
    
    					da ve_who_probably_will_miss_again 

    grayknob is definitely winterized...  the new place is beautiful and
    roasty warm... the RMC just spent over $70K rebuilding the place...
     no fires in the area has never been a problem before...  the woodstove 
    in the cabin keeps things toasty and if they were too full for us we 
    could always scoot down to crags...  it would be colder there but there
    aren't exactly a  lot of good camp/tent sites either...  plan on $5 for
    the camp, maybe 6 or 7 now in winter...  
    
    					da ve 

>plan on $5 for
>    the camp, maybe 6 or 7 now in winter...  
    
	Plan also on bringing some extra Oat Bran for the Caretaker. One of the 
pre-requisites for the job of RMC Caretaker is an undying and insatiable lust 
for the stuff...

Seriously...

    Last I heard, Grey Knob is $7. As for wearing cotton for underwear,
    I don't recommend it.

Right.  Everyone should wear Fog's underwear (or no underwear at all)!!

:-)

just logged on to GRATEFUL for the first time in a while, and saw the discussion
about a possible hike to Grey Knob; a couple of questions:

1) where is it? (excuse my ignorance); given any random choice i'd guess the
white mtns., but who knows... and what's the elevation?

2) is this discussion actually leading to a trip?  on the weekend of 28/29/1 ?

3) what kind of equipment do i need for winter hiking?  i've got plenty of warm
clothing (for skiing), but is that sufficient?  i don't have snow shoes, and
i don't have insulated boots; are regular, water-proof boots with wool socks
and polypro liners sufficient?

- rich

re: <<< Note 235.107 by TECRUS::FROMM >>>
   
>1) where is it? (excuse my ignorance); given any random choice i'd guess the
>white mtns., but who knows... and what's the elevation?

    Grey Knob is an insulated RMC hut located just below treeline at
    approximately 4300' in the Northern Presidentials on a spur of
    Adams 4 at the intersection of the Hincks and Grey Knob trails 
    and near the intersection of Lowe's Path.
    
>2) is this discussion actually leading to a trip?  on the weekend of 28/29/1 ?

    It's trying to.
    
>3) what kind of equipment do i need for winter hiking?  i've got plenty of warm
>clothing (for skiing), but is that sufficient?  i don't have snow shoes, and
>i don't have insulated boots; are regular, water-proof boots with wool socks
>and polypro liners sufficient?

    You'll need warm clothing, regular boots with warm socks should be
    sufficient as long as the temps are above 0�F (they're all I use). 
    You won't need snowshoes unless the trails get dumped with a foot of 
    snow the night before hiking. The trails are well packed. Crampons
    are advised if you plan to hike Mt. Adams. Some portions of Lowe's
    Path may be iced up as well. You can buy instep crampons for about $15
    at EMS/REI, etc. Full 12 points cost a lot more. We have done the trip
    with insteps, however. I would expect you to be an experienced hiker if 
    you plan to do this trip. 

	(*&$#(^# work man.

	If it wasn't for work, I'd go.  This sounds like a good time.
	
	:-(

	Maybe next year... or, later this march... actually, later
	this march I might be into doing a few hikes...

    Have we officially set a date?  Next weekend is ok by me, only bad
    weather will keep me away.  Is this an overnight trip, or is there a
    chance of making it up there Friday?
    
    I'm more worried about having the right equipment, not my physical
    ability.  I've been training and practicing my dramatic speech: " . . .
    save yourselves . . . go on without me . . . I can't make it . . . it's
    your only chance."
    
    Jamie

    I guess next weekend is quasi-official. Maybe the weekend after if the
    weather's bad. The gear you have, Jamie, should be adequate. I don't 
    figure you guys will be going if it's much below zero. Even if it is 
    sort of cold, we can still hang out at the cabin. One of the good
    things about the trip is that you don't need to carry a tent or pots
    and pans, etc. As far as friday night goes, we can camp at the trailhead 
    and get an early start on saturday. That way we get 2 shots at Adams. One 
    thing you ought to be aware of is that it's a tradition for first timers at 
    Crag/Gray Knob to make the water runs. Good thing there's 2 of you. :-)
    
    - Gerry
        
    PS - Jamie... in the event of your demise, is it OK if we give you a
         Viking Funeral (tm)? :-)

    .111 HA!  i've used a variant on that speech myself before!!!! :^)
    
    mine was sprinkled with a few more, ahh, colorful terms though...
    
    "!@#$ this!  i'm turning back now dammit!  if i keep on you'll have to
    drag my cold, dead !@# off this !@#$ing rock!"   :^) :^) :^)
    
    					da ve

    re .-1
    
    What's an early start -- noonish??  :^)  I have a 20� mummy and a
    summer bag I'll put inside.  It's an untested combination, but should
    work.  I was gonna do an overnight close to the car to check this combo
    out, but what the Hell.
    
    C'mon da ve, I wanna see a true da valanche!!
    
    Jamie

    While no stranger to hiking at the crack of noon, I kinda had something
    more along the lines of starting at 8-9:00. :-) That would put us
    at the cabin at 11-12:00 the latest. From the cabin, it's about a 
    3 hour RT to Adams - doable after noon on saturday or in the AM on
    sunday. I may have an extra set of instep crampons someone can use.
    i don't know yet, though.
    
    As for the double sleeping bag combo - that works great! I've used it 
    for years. You'll only need it for the trail head. The mummy alone should 
    be ok for the cabin (right da ve?).
    
    re: da ve's speech
    
    I've heard it a couple of times. :-) Actually we've learned to know 
    it's time to turn back whe da ve begins to hallucinate from natural 
    causes. :-)

>    snow the night before hiking. The trails are well packed. Crampons
>    are advised if you plan to hike Mt. Adams. Some portions of Lowe's
>    Path may be iced up as well. You can buy instep crampons for about $15
>    at EMS/REI, etc. Full 12 points cost a lot more. We have done the trip
>    with insteps, however. I would expect you to be an experienced hiker if 
>    you plan to do this trip. 

What are crampons?

I've got plenty of warm clothing, and a 0 degree sleeping bag, so I think I'll
be okay as far as warmness.  The treads on my hiking boots are now virtually
non-existent, so this will probably be a good excuse for me to go out next
week and get a new pair of boots (I've been putting it off for about a year).
I have hiking experience, and I have winter camping experience, although I've
never done any winter hiking (although we did encounter snow one day over 
spring break in the smoky mountains last year).

So, if this trip is on for the 28-29-1 (or would it just be 29-1 ?), I'm
probably interested.  If it gets postponed a week, I probably won't be able to
make it.

While I'm out getting new boots, maybe I'll get a new pack as well.  (The pack
I currently own was bought about 10 years ago when I was in the Boy Scouts.)
Internal frame packs seem to be the latest craze.  Any advice on internal vs.
external?  Do internal frame packs have any disadvantages over the traditional
external frame packs?

- Rich

re: <<< Note 235.116 by TECRUS::FROMM >>>

>What are crampons?

    They're kind of spikes that strap to the soles of your boots to
    facilitate walking on steep ice. There's only a couple of spots
    on Lowe's Path that you might need them but you can always 
    bushwhack around them. Adams is a different story. You'll probably
    need some type of crampons there.
    
>So, if this trip is on for the 28-29-1 (or would it just be 29-1 ?)
    
    I'm pushing for bivvying at Appalachia trailhead on the night of the 28th.
    
>Internal frame packs seem to be the latest craze.  Any advice on internal vs.
>external?  Do internal frame packs have any disadvantages over the traditional
>external frame packs?

    Most people seem to favor externals. I prefer an internal. Externals
    are more designed for carrying heavy, bulky loads. The disadvantage
    for most internals is that pretty much everything goes inside and you 
    can't carry as much (At 7800 CI, I don't have that problem with mine,
    however :-). They also don't ventilate as well. That is, E-frames are 
    suspended away from your back by while I-frames ride against your back.
    
    I wouldn't own anything but an I-frame, but pretty much everyone I
    hike with has E-frames.
    
    - Gerry

    Oh yeah, I forgot. This month's Backpacker magazine has the 1992
    gear buyer's guide in it. They must list at least 200+ packs.

	Count me in for next weekend (95% sure)...

As for friday night, I'm up to the Appalacia bivvie, but only weather 
permitting: My equipment and body couldn't stand another night like that failed 
grey knob attempt two winters ago (too much tequila, not enough gas for the 
fire, and -15 temp's).
	Alternative to the friday night bivvie is a real early start Saturday 
morning...

See y'all up there

re: <<< Note 235.119 by SPICE::PECKAR "Shadow skiing the apocalypse" >>>

>Count me in for next weekend (95% sure)...

    kool.
    
>Alternative to the friday night bivvie is a real early start Saturday morning

 HA! ;-) 

    re:  <<< Note 235.119 by SPICE::PECKAR "Shadow skiing the apocalypse" >>>


>	Count me in for next weekend (95% sure)...

    Excellent!
    
>As for friday night, I'm up to the Appalacia bivvie, but only weather 
>permitting: My equipment and body couldn't stand another night like that failed 
>grey knob attempt two winters ago (too much tequila, not enough gas for the 
>fire, and -15 temp's).
>	Alternative to the friday night bivvie is a real early start Saturday 
>morning...

    Here's another alternative: bivy at my Mom's house in Littleton.  :^) 
    I know where I'll be if it's awful cold.
    
    Yes, the Backpacker equipment issue is overwhelming (there's also a
    strange classified ad looking for "young trippers").  I have an
    internal and like it, but have no experience with externals.  Mine
    holds up to ~5500 in�, which is more than enough for long summer trips
    and adequate for a winter overnight (unless you're one of them fools
    that brings all kinds of toys along).  EMS, REI, et al. rent packs,
    which is a good way to decide without making a huge investment.  LL
    Bean recently had the Lowe Countor IV on sale for $150, a fantastic
    deal if they still have any.
    
    Jamie
    

This sounds like a really fun trip, I'd like to tag along is no one 
objects 8^).  But at this point though it still depends on my current wrist 
injury and how it feels next week.  I'll have to confirm by Wednesday or so.

BTW, I do have hiking/camping experience but none in winter.  I have plenty of 
warm winter cloths that I use for skiing and some good boots.  No crampons 
though, so if anyone has a set I could borrow, I'd be interested.

Scott

	Jamie,  I like your idea. What will be the threshold parameters which 
cause the program to branch to littleton vrs staying the "freezing Idiots" 
course?

	I suggest:	11�, no winds
		or	16�, 5-15 kph sustained winds @appalachia
		or	21�, 15-25 kph sustained winds @appalachia

This is based on my current equipment and tolerance to alchohol..

    re .122  Scott, i have a set of instep crampons somewhere at my house
    that i'll dig out and loan you if you can go...
    
    					da ve

    They also advertise the perfect item for Fog...the GPS. The ad goes 
    like this...
    
    
    "WHERE AM I?"
    
    "Get the most out of your trips with a portable GPS (Global Positioning
     System). Locate your position anywhere in the world, anytime, in any 
     weather condition!"
    
    "Here's what your GPS can tell you! Where am I? What course should I
     take? What's my altitude? What time is it? When will i arrive?"
    
    It apparently orients itself via geo-stationary satelites. :-) :-) :-)

    HA!  swell...  sounds like the only thing it DOESN'T have is a flashing
    red light that says "FF!" or "follow me!"  :^) :^) :^)
    
    					da ve

    Well, I'm not going to do this hike 'cause I'm leaving only a couple
    days later to ski for a week. I want all weekend to stress out about
    what I'm forgetting. 
    
    	But Grey Knob was not a bad hike, about three hours. It was a hike,
    but I made it without any major trouble. I went up for New Year's eve 
    '89-'90. I had been cold all December, but man it was tropical while we
    were up there. I couldn't sleep on NYM because I have a 0 or -5 degree
    bag and it was damn near 60 degrees in the new cabin. It was quite warm
    in there. 
    	If I weren't taking off two days later I'd do the hike. (I was just
    thinking it's been way too long since I hiked.) But from what I've seen
    of the conditions in that area (while skiing at Wildcat) is that I
    wouldn't try without crampons.
    
     re: GPS  
    	With a shipboard LORAN, a hand heald LORAN and A GPS on the trip to
    Halifax we used exclusively the two LORAN. We fired up the GPS once. 
    They have a huge, like 9 AA, battery pack and it took a long time to 
    find the chain. GPS should get better as they launch more sattalites
    and it is useable around the world. Loran needs a functional chain of
    transmitters, which you can count on on the American (US & Canada)
    coast, but the open ocean GPS, sextant and dead reckoning is more
    reliable. GPS will give you eleveation that Loran won't, but the best
    thing about GPS is it drove the price of a Loran way down!
    	Fog, your money is better spent on a Loran right now :-)
    
    Geoff

    re:  <<< Note 235.123 by SPICE::PECKAR "Shadow skiing the apocalypse" >>>
       >                             -< :-) >-


>	Jamie,  I like your idea. What will be the threshold parameters which 
>cause the program to branch to littleton vrs staying the "freezing Idiots" 
>course?

>	I suggest:	11�, no winds
>		or	16�, 5-15 kph sustained winds @appalachia
>		or	21�, 15-25 kph sustained winds @appalachia

    Hmmm, kph winds, but I don't think those temps are celcius!  I think
    the threshold should be: if Ger sez "it's not _that_ bad," it's time to
    bail out!  :^)
    
    The NWS report for this past weekend was light winds and lows of 0 to
    -10.  The long range forecast looks similar for the coming weekend. 
    
    BTW, I may have a bottle of contaminated Coleman fuel -- how can I
    dispose of it properly?
    
>This is based on my current equipment and tolerance to alchohol..

    Let's get a roll call and work out the equipment details via e-mail.
    
    Jamie

    need to get rid of that bottle-o-gas?????  hmmmmmm????  
    
    give it to fog on friday night when you camp at the trail head...
    i PROMISE!!!  no more gas by morning....  
    
    				da ve_who_has_lost_beard_mustache_and_
    				eyebrow_hairs_from_sitting_too_close_and_
    				not_heeding_the_acknowledged_international_
    				warning_of_"BACK OFF!"  :^)

	Jamie. If its not too contaminated, just add it to your car's gas tank;
should improve performance to boot, and any particulate contamination should be
taken care of by your gas filter... 

I've used coleman fuel exclusively once in an emergency when I ran out of gas.

	Now I know that JC and slash are gonna flame me big time on this one. 
But remember, the gas you typically buy for your car has some amazingly bad 
shit in it: How do you thing the big seven dispose of their toxic wastes, hmmm?

    re .-1
    
    I'm not yet sure that fuel contamination is the problem, but I've
    filtered it for particles, so if it's contaminated it's probably water,
    which I don't want to put into my car.  My Whisper-not-at-all isn't
    running right, and I've got to fix it by this weekend.  I rebuilt it
    last night and will give it another try today.
    
    Here's the roll call:
    
>XCUSME::MACINTYRE                                    14 lines  20-FEB-1992 15:40
 
    >   From what I can tell it looks like 
    
    >Jamie  STUDIO::IDE	
    >GerG   SCOONR::GLADU	if surgery to remove "G" appendage succeeds
    >Marv   XCUSME::MACINTYRE
    Fog	    SPICE::PECKAR	keeper of Prometheus' gift
    Rich    TECRUS::FROMM
    Scott   MR4DEC::WENTZELL	could sell ice to Gray Knob caretaker
    
    >are up for doing Gray Knob on the last weekend of Feb.  
    
    Jamie
    

Hey Geoff Sampson.  Pack for Wyoming now, so you can join us: It'll be a good 
chance to acclimatize to Jackson!

My friend Wally will be joining us as well...

    I probably have an extra set of instep crampons available for use
    (provided that you have the size 12 boots to attatch them to :-).
    
    I won't be packing a tent unless there's a shortage, so I'll need to bunk 
    w/someone if we bivvy. I will pack a stove and fuel if needed. That about 
    covers the community hardware since we can probably use the pots and pans 
    at Grey Knob or Crag. You'll need your own plastikware, plate, bowl and/or 
    mug.
    
    As for food, we should plan by email as soon as we know who's going
    for sure. 
    
    definites so far:
    
    Fog, Wally, Jamie and myself.

    granted, since i am not going on this trip i REALLY should stay out
    of the discussion, BUT...  :^)
    
    i wouldn't really plan on leaving all the cooking stuff behind and
    using the camp's...  reasons being:
    	-that stuff is primarily there for the caretaker (even though it
    		is generally available for everyone)
    	-you don't know what kind of crowd there is there (or how many of
    		THEM are planning on using the camp's cook stuff
    	-i, myself, would rather not have to depend on the availablity of
    		the "common" items for when i can and can't cook my
    		meals...  i would suggest at least packing a "minimalist"
    		kind of cooking kit...
    
    give my regards to the chicken! :^)
    
    					da ve

    Well, I'm probably in, depending on how I feel tomorrow.  I was out
    sick on Monday, and still not totally feeling full strength at work
    today, but hopefully by tomorrow I'll feel totally well.
    
    I'd much rather some kind of arrangement where we could meet somewhere
    on Friday night.  I hate to think how early I'd have to get up on
    Satur-
    day morning to make it up to start hiking at a reasonably early hour.
    
    I think I'm going to go out and get a new pair of boots tomorrow.  And
    who knows, maybe I'll be persuaded to pick up a new pack while I'm
    out shopping.  Is there an extra pair of crampons that I could borrow
    from somebody?  Or are these things cheap enough that I should just
    go out and get my own?
    
    I've got personal gear (clothing, dining stuff, etc.), but I don't
    have any communal gear (no tent, no stove).  Is this okay?
    
    - Rich
    

    re .-1
    
    There's a new exciting conference devoted to planning this trip at
    SPICE::FREEZING_IDIOTS.
    
    BTW, I'd strongly recommend against breaking in a new pair of boots on
    a hike like this.  Instep crampons run ~$20, but a lot of stores don't
    carry much of a selection (they're sized by width) this time of year. 
    EMS in Worcester had none, New England Backpacker had a few.
    
    Jamie

	Wear the new boots for the rest of the week. wear them to bed, even.

	The trails up to grey knob can wear your feet to the bone in less than 
	a mile if your wearing boots you've not broken in.

	If you don't have any "hot spots" from wearing them for a couple days,
	you should be alright for this weekends hike.

Fog

re: <<< Note 235.136 by TECRUS::FROMM >>>
    
    >Is there an extra pair of crampons that I could borrow from somebody?  
    
    You're welcome to borrow my instep crampons provided the new boots
    you're buying are at least close to a size 12. Otherwise, maybe da ve's
    will fit or you'll have to buy a pair. You'll probably need them.
    
    >I've got personal gear (clothing, dining stuff, etc.), but I don't
    >have any communal gear (no tent, no stove).  Is this okay?
    
    You don't need any of that gear. We should be covered. We'll need
    at least 3 tents and, remember, I'm not packing one.
    
    - Gerry

>    BTW, I'd strongly recommend against breaking in a new pair of boots on
>    a hike like this.  Instep crampons run ~$20, but a lot of stores don't

I really don't feel that I have too much of a choice.  I can get by with the
boots that I have now on a dry surface, or a somewhat muddy surface, but they
really have virtually zero tread left.  I went hiking for a week in the Smoky's
over spring break last year in them, and I did fine except for the one day that
we encountered snow.  Then I had a great deal of trouble even keeping my
balance (esp. coming down from Clingman's Dome), and I fell way behind the
other people I was hiking with.

I plan on wearing them constantly from when I buy them until the trip.

As for clothing, as I am a bit inexperienced with hiking in this weather, I
could use some advice.  Just how much is enough/too much?  I've got some very
warm attire (ski pants, ski jacket w/ GoreTex exterior and Thinsulate lining),
but are those too bulky for hiking in?  Is polypro bottoms plus pants
(unfortunately, no wool pants) good enough for my legs?  And what about on top?
Bag the jacket and do something like polypro top -> t shirt -> turtleneck ->
sweatshirt -> polar fleece pullover -> waterproof shell pullover ?

- Rich

by the way, on my quest looking for crampons to borrow, my foot is a size 9

- rich

>    a hike like this.  Instep crampons run ~$20, but a lot of stores don't
>    carry much of a selection (they're sized by width) this time of year. 
>    EMS in Worcester had none, New England Backpacker had a few.

If I decide to buy crampons, do I want strap-on or step-in ?  EMS Framingham
said all he had was step-in, and he claimed that they don't fit most boots.
Wilderness House on Comm Ave said all they had was strap-on, and that they go
for $80.

- Rich

    re .-1
    
    Sounds like they're referring to two types of regular (12 point)
    crampons.  You do generally need special boots with those.  Instep
    crampons are just a small metal plate with 4-6 points which strap on. 
    I bet you'll get different answers if you call back and specify
    "instep" crampons.
    
    If you're close enough to Boston, you might want to try Hilton's Tent
    City, which is near Boston Garden.
    
    Jamie

Well, I made a few more phone calls (will I ever get any work done), and now
I'm getting even more confused.

I talked for a while with somebody at REI (who seemed to be pretty knowledge-
able) and she vehemently argued against using any kind of crampons on non-
insulated boots.  I'm really not up for getting a pair of winter boots and a
pair of summer boots, because I really don't think I'll use the winter boots
too often.  I was just planning on wearing an extra pair of wool socks.  Her
advice (and she was quite adamant about this) was that having metal under a
regular boot while walking on snow and ice will get so cold that your toes will
freeze.  She strongly suggested that I get a pair of winter boots (which I
really don't want to spend the $ on, and would probably bag this trip if it
came down to that).

Sorry if I'm seeming clueless, but that's certainly how I'm feeling...

- Rich

re: <<< Note 235.144 by TECRUS::FROMM >>>
    
>I talked for a while with somebody at REI (who seemed to be pretty knowledge-
>able) and she vehemently argued against using any kind of crampons on non-
>insulated boots.  
    
    She doesn't know what she is talking about. Strap-on crampons work fine
    on regular boots. Step-ins are for the plastic double-insulated
    mountaneering boots and won't work on regular boots.
    
    Winter mountaineering boots cost $300-$500 a pair. Seems like she
    wants you to spend some bucks. As far as the metal on the crampons
    freezing your feet... crampons don't get any colder (sorta) than the 
    ambient temperature of snow/air - a temp which your boots are already at.
    When you're hiking the temp of your feet rises, it's when you're
    standing around that they get cold and you won't be wearing crampons
    then. I wear expedition weight capilene socks with wool/capilene
    undersocks. Works well when moving about. My boots are plain work
    boots.
    
    As for clothing, I wear an unlined nylon shell parka, unlined nylon
    storm pants, fleece/pile pants and jacket and polypro [sic] longjohns
    underneath. That's it. I don't usually wear the fleece pants while hiking,
    just the jongjohns and storm pants. Ski clothing should be adequate.
    Sometimes I substitute a sweater for the pile jacket and add the jacket
    and/or pile pants as it gets colder. Bring enough to keep warm but
    don't overdress either. 
    
    The 2 under-layers keep you warm and remove moisture away from your
    body, the pants/parka shell keep the warmth from escaping.
    
    I'd bring your ski outfit, longjohns, and your polypro [sic] outfit.
    Perhaps an extra sweater.
    
    BTW, my instep crampons won't fit you.
    
    - gerry

	Well, we're all meeting up tonight at Truants in North Woodstock (NH).
Its not too late to join the freezing idiot bus.  :-}

If yer in the neighborhood, stop by. We should be there around 9:30...

See ya...

	Well, to say the least, it was a cold trip! Friday night we camped out
at the Beaver Brook shelter. Temps went at least down to 0�F, probably lower,
and even there in the woods in a valley, the winds were gusting to 20 knots. 

	Saturday night, temps got down to -24�F outside the Grey Knob cabin. 
Sustained winds at the Quay were a good 40 Knots. Just above us on Mt. 
Washington, a peak gust of 120 mph was recorded. All the beer froze, we had to 
cook it to get it to a quaffable tempurature.  :-)

When's the next one???

Glad you guys had fun .....  I had enough fun just waking in my bed and
listening ......... TO THE BIRDS SING AND THE GEESE FLY BACK ....... :-)

Ahh, it'll be spring before the end of the month!!!  ;^)

re:      <<< Note 235.147 by SPICE::PECKAR "Shadow skiing the apocalypse" >>>

>When's the next one???

    Weekend of 4/4 - Tuckermans/Mt. Washington. Sooner if I regain feeling
    in my toes before then. Nurse said it's not frostbite but some sort of
    "memory" they have from near freezing on my trip to Whiteface 6 weeks
    ago. Apparently from now on whenever the temps hit around -15�F my toes
    will go into this cold shock and stay numb long after the rest of my
    feet heat up. Still numb now. Circulation & pulse ok. Nurse says if I'm
    going to keep playing like this I have to invest in some cold temp
    mountaineering boots or risk serious problems in the future.
    
    Great, Now I have a busted up tailbone that informs me of incoming low
    pressure systems and feet that tell me it's -15�F below. :-/
    
    - Gerry

Ger,

Becareful with your toes mon!  Deb has this thing with her toes called
"chillblanes" (sp?).  Whenever the temp goes below 40, her toes start to
freeze and turn numb.  She wears wears the warmest Sorels on the market
(rates at -40) and her feet will still get cold... this all happened
from her young skiing days of poorly fitting ski boots.  Once you mess
them up, they'll be messed up for life...

Doctors do not know how to "fix" chillblanes, or, at least Deb's doctors
don;t.

re: Note 235.150 by NECSC::LEVY 
    
    >Just call him "Gramps"  :-) 

    They can call me "Gramps" the day I don't have to be handicapped by a 
    by a 60lb pack and a keg O'beer to slow me down. ;-)
    
    
re:    <<< Note 235.151 by ZENDIA::FERGUSON "Approaching the snapping point" >>>
   
    >Once you mess them up, they'll be messed up for life...
    
    I believe that they already are messed up. Fortunately they're tolerant to 
    at least -15�F.
    
    GrampBo

    WEAR DAMART SOCKS, dammit!!!! %^)
                                     rfb

         I've got to hand it to the intrepid alpinists from this file ...
    the conditions in the Northern Presidentials this past Saturday were
    about as extreme as they get in these here parts .... and about as
    extreme as they get anywhere in the continental U.S.!!  Windchills on
    Mt. Washington on Saturday were well below -100 degrees farenheit!
    
         It's been another pretty strange and changeable winter for weather
    here in the Northeast.  I was at Gray Knob two weekends ago.  A 12+
    inch snowstorm was predicted for Saturday night, and we all retired for
    the evening with moderate snow falling.  I awoke at 2 a.m. and had to
    go outside for a biology break.  Temperatures had risen to 36 degrees
    and torrential rains were erasing the 6" of snow which had fallen
    earlier!  As an aside, Craig the regular caretaker took a couple of
    days off, and we were fortunate to enjoy the company of a celebrity
    caretaker, none other than the famous outdoor author Guy Waterman
    ("Backwood Ethics", "Forest and Crag, A History of Mountain Exploration
    in the Northeast")  A very interesting gentleman to talk with!
    
         As a final note, a couple of the climbers on this weekends trip
    mentioned their confusion regarding the choices of winter footgear and
    the compatibility of crampons thereto.  The best article I've seen on
    the subject was authored by Rick Wilcox of North Conway and IME, and
    a recent summiter of Everest, and appeared in the AMC's Appalachia 
    Journal.  If anyone's interested in the article, I believe I could 
    find it at home.  When I became a semi-serious winter hiker and camper
    10 or so years ago, I quickly came to the realization that leather,
    3 season boots weren't going to cut it for me.  (We're all different
    by the way, ie. circulation, metabolism etc., and several of my usual
    partners still head out in below zero conditions in leather boots,
    without serious consequences)  In fact, there is a now humorous photo
    of me, circulating at the Worcester Chapter of the AMC, warming my frozen 
    feet on the exposed stomach of a hiking partner just below the summit 
    of Algonquin in the Adirondack high peaks!  Shortly after the hike, 
    I broke down and bought a pair of the "plastic-fantastiks" and I haven't 
    once regretted the decision! 
    
    Russ Schott
          

    Fog, Gerry, and myself left Oakdale and almost immediately got lost
    after a detour by Arctic Bay.  Snow started falling as we entered the
    White Mountain area and became heavy by the time we reached North
    Woodstock, where we met the rest of our group, Marv and Rich Fromm, at
    a local bar.  We contemplated the conditions over a couple of beers and
    decided to head to a nearby shelter rather than try to make Appalachia
    that night.  We broke the trail heading into Mt. Moosilauke's Beaver
    Brook shelter and quickly made ourselves at home.  A tarp kept blowing
    snow out of the shelter and we slept pretty well.  Temperatures dropped
    overnight and we knew we were in for a cold trip up to Gray Knob.

    After a healthy McDonald's breakfast, we drove to Lowe's Store, where
    we were surprised to see a pretty full parking lot: it soon became
    obvious that we were not alone in our freezing idiocy.  Lowe's Path was
    well packed and we made fairly good time up to the RMC Log Cabin.  We
    put on crampons there and started up the last hard half mile to Gray
    Knob.  Temperatures were well below zero and the wind was biting, but
    we were fine as long as we kept moving.  When we reached the exposed
    area where the Quay heads off to Gray Knob, we realized just how severe
    the weather was above treeline and began to have doubts about making
    the summit of Adams.

    We soon reached Gray Knob , an enclosed winterized cabin operated by
    the Randolph Mountain Club, where we were greeted by a full house. 
    They would have made room, but we decided to seek the uncrowded and
    uninsulated shelter of Crag Camp 1/2 mi. further.  We set up camp and
    ate, then realized that we weren't going to have a good night at -25�
    in a drafty cabin.  So, we packed up and made a nighttime trek back to
    Gray Knob, where we were re-greeted by a chorus of "told-ya-so"s.  We
    eventually thawed out a few beers and mildly annoyed everyone staying
    there by having too much fun (they got us back with an early wake-up).

    Sunday dawned with little change in the conditions, so a summit attempt
    was definitely out.  Of the forty or more hikers we saw up there, some
    equipped in full expedition gear, none made the summit.  We ate a fiery
    lunch of Uncle Ger's Intercontinental Ballistic Linguine, packed up,
    and glissaded on down Lowe's Path.  The trip, which had taken 3 1/2 hours
    up, only took an hour descending.

    I had a great time and will go again.  Many thanks to Fog and Gerry for
    taking on the responsibility, as defined by bright orange signs which
    there weren't enough of, of leading a group of inexperienced winter
    campers on such a trip.

    Jamie

    Are there American made hiking boots that are worth their weight??
    I like Hi-tech, "made in Korea, by Koreans, for Americans"
but was wondering if there's a totally American conterpart.
                                                           rfb

    re .-1
    
    I think Vasque may be US made (I believe they're a division of Red
    Wing).  They're one of the few that offer the narrow boots that I need.
    
    Jamie

	Limmer has a very good reputation.  The custom ones are made in New
Hampshire.  I won't know if they live up to their reputation for another six
months, or so, when I should come to the front of the queue (I ordered them
last summer).

Mark

rfb,

I've been hiking w/ Dexters for about 14 years or so.  I'm on my third or
fourth pair now.  These are very traditional leather hiking boots with a
vibram sole, heavy duty lace eyes, and great ankle support.  Many rag on
me because they are "old" and "outdated" and therefore NFG... but, after a
long 10 miles in the whites, I need all the ankle support these suckers
offer.

They go for about $70 a pair and they'll last several hundred miles.  Geoff
Sampson also has a pair... I wonder what is experience is with them.

JC

    	Yup, I have no complaints so far. I had been wearing Dunham boots all
    the time for about 10 years then they stopped making leather boots. I
    haven't done any major hikes with these, but I wear them all the time. 
    My feet are comfortable in them. 
    
    Well, I gotta fly
    See Ya'
    Geoff

    
    
    Another Dunham boot man here....same as Geoff.  I like 'em.  But then
    again, I don't hike in the winter :^)
    
    Hogan

    re: bummer note
    
    Da ve, let's go camping dammit! ;-) 21st? 28th? :-)

    i hiked in Dunhams for years and loved 'em...  last year they finally
    died and i had to replace them...  i bought a pair of Raichle Ridge 
    Runners...  significantly more expensive...  took a long long long
    long time to break 'em in...  they are finally getting to the point
    where i think they can be worn on trips without turning my feet to
    hamburger...
    
    				da ve_who_misses_his_old_soft_comfy_well_
    				worn_Dunham's 

I've been buying my boots at Spags for a couple years now. The first pair I 
bought there were made in Georgia and are absolutely indestructible: I'm still 
breaking them in as their constructed of quarter inch-thick leather. $32.95

	The boots I used last weekend were "dickies" Suede high-top work boots
with standard work boot soles. Slighty over-sized so I can wear two pair of 
thick socks: $22.95 Don't know where those were made.

	I guess I'm one of the lucky ones Russ refers to in his note; never 
needed a lot of warmth in boots, but ankle support has always been real 
important for me...

	I'm considering buying a used pair of vapor barrier boots, which I hear
can be had for around $30.00.  Excellent for snowshowing, Ice fishing, or just
hanging around outside in the winter; not reccomended for any hiking or
climbing, however. These boot were designed back in the 10th mountain devision
days and bought in large quantities by the Air Force for use by bombadiers back
when a bombadiers job wasn't pushing a button, it was chucking a bomb out of a
large hole in the bottom of an airplane (know how cold it gets at 20,000
feet?)... 

    no over priced boots for this kid ! I got my boots way back when (I was
    still in high school) at Spags and you can't beat these suckers !!!
    bought them when I was a part time Fireman, I lived in them for 3 years
    and they still keep water out and keep my toes warm. Now though I've
    opted for the all season type boot, white leather Reeboks :') lowcut so
    the snow and slush can get into the shoe and freeze my feet in a matter
    of minutes ! you wimpy guys in your boots :') 
    
    Chris

    re .162
    
    :^) :^) :^)  Ger, i knew you wouldn't let me down!  :^)  :^)  :^)
    
    					da ve

    Don't know if this belongs in the Dead Druids note or here. :-) Anyone
    up for an Equinox hike the weekend of 3/20, 21, 22 assuming that's
    the correct date? Can't let a month go by without a backpacking trip, you 
    know. Thinking of either the Taconics, Berkshires or Catskills. No Whites 
    this trip - trying to celebrate Spring, dammit. :-) (This means *You*, 
    da ve! :-) :-) :-) 
    
    re: April 4, Tuckerman's trip
    
    So far there's 8 of my friends going on the trip but they're all
    skiers. I feel outnumbered so I'd like to propose either another
    trip somewhere else or a separate trip to Tuck's that weekend. No 
    fire's at Hermit Lake, BTW.
    
    - Gerry

    re .-1
    
    >re: April 4, Tuckerman's trip
    
    >So far there's 8 of my friends going on the trip but they're all
    >skiers. I feel outnumbered so I'd like to propose either another
    >trip somewhere else or a separate trip to Tuck's that weekend.
    
    I'm still planning on going, but not definite yet.  I need permission
    :^).  I don't much care where we go, though if we blow off Tuck's I'd
    suggest some of the beautiful campsites that are too crowded in summer
    (such as Liberty Spring, Garfield, Guyot, etc.).
    
    >No fire's at Hermit Lake, BTW.
    
    I take it Fog's not going?  :^)
    
    Is the DECHead camping trip to Mt. Greylock still on for May 9th?
    
    From the Dept. of Advanced Planning Dept.: a Memorial Day weekend trip,
    destination in the Whites TBA when my friend Tim gets back from Egypt.
    
    BTW, I keep a pretty close eye on the weather and, if I'm not mistaken,
    we picked the coldest weekend of the year for the Gray Knob trip!  A
    dubious honor if there ever was one.
    
    Rule 1.	Don't follow Fog.
         2.	Don't let Ger pick the weekend.
         3.	Don't bring beer when it's f'n cold out (tequila is ok).
    
    Jamie

re: <<< Note 235.168 by STUDIO::IDE "now it can be told" >>>

    >I don't much care where we go, though if we blow off Tuck's I'd
    >suggest some of the beautiful campsites that are too crowded in summer
    >(such as Liberty Spring, Garfield, Guyot, etc.).
    
    Well, with so much of the RUA available until May 1, why waste a
    weekend on an actual kampsite (tm). Think about it. I'm gonna hafta 
    buy a Sorel Boot System (tm) B4 I go though. Should be on sale these days.
    
    >Is the DECHead camping trip to Mt. Greylock still on for May 9th?
    
    As far as I know. Unless there's a major objection to that date.
    
>From the Dept. of Advanced Planning Dept.: a Memorial Day weekend trip,
>destination in the Whites TBA when my friend Tim gets back from Egypt.
 
    How' bout the loop around Owl's Head? With a tromp to the summit
    and a camp at 13 falls? Avoid the more popular spots.
    
    >BTW, I keep a pretty close eye on the weather and, if I'm not mistaken,
    >we picked the coldest weekend of the year for the Gray Knob trip!  A
    >dubious honor if there ever was one.
    
    The weekend of Jan 17-20 was at least as cold if not colder. Figures...
    the last 2 weekends I picked were -24�F weekends. Global Warming indeed. :-|
    
    - Gerry

    believe it or not, i just might be able to make it on the 20,21,22
    weekend...  
    
    oh god...  this means i have to dig out my equipment and check it out!
    
    					da ve

re:  <<< Note 235.170 by JUNCO::DWEST "Dont Overlook Something Extraordinary" >>>
   
   > believe it or not, i just might be able to make it on the 20,21,22
   > weekend...  
    
    HAH! Yeah, right. :-)

    
    
    fine...  BE that way, oh incredulous one....  :^)  
    
    	you just have that rubber chicken ready...  :^)
    
    				da ve

    re:                  <<< Note 235.169 by SCOONR::GLADU >>>
    
    >Well, with so much of the RUA available until May 1, why waste a
    >weekend on an actual kampsite (tm). Think about it.
    
    True, I didn't think of that.  Like I said, I don't much care -- I'd be
    perfectly happy lounging around watching the damn fools ski.  My only
    objection is that some of the RUAs should probably be observed anyway 
    'cause they're in sensitive areas (most of these areas are probably
    year 'round RUAs anyway).  Others I wouldn't camp in 'cause it would be
    foolish (like on an exposed ridge).
    
    >How' bout the loop around Owl's Head? With a tromp to the summit
    >and a camp at 13 falls? Avoid the more popular spots.
    
    A possibility, but one of our goals is to avoid the Franconias (my last
    3 trips with Tim have been there) and I think the Franconia Brook trail
    (actually, I know from [bad] experience) will be a major mudhole that
    time of year.  I was thinking along the lines of: Kinsmans,
    return_to_Crag (probably not, still winter there and Tim hikes in
    sneakers), Carter-Moriahs, maybe even Baldface again.  As you can tell,
    it's still _very_ undecided.
    
    Jamie

re:  <<< Note 235.172 by ESKIMO::DWEST "Dont Overlook Something Extraordinary" >>>
       
   >you just have that rubber chicken ready...  :^)
    
    Hey, I never hike without my Emergency Auxilliary Rubber Chicken (tm).
    'course you wouldn't know that since you haven't hiked since the
    Margarita Faceplant Tournament waaaaaaaay back during the summer. ;-)
    

>    >Is the DECHead camping trip to Mt. Greylock still on for May 9th?
>   
>    As far as I know. Unless there's a major objection to that date.

So what's the story with this one?  Sounds like a good opportunity to do some
hiking and meet some more of y'all....

Dave

re: <<< Note 235.175 by TLE::WEISS "My hangover ate my bagel." >>>
    
>So what's the story with this one?  Sounds like a good opportunity to do some
>hiking and meet some more of y'all....
    
    See note 48.628 for details regarding this year's trip. Basically, it's 
    sort of an annual drive-to-the-campsite camping trip involving roughly 30 
    or so decheads. This year it's at a fantastic site near Greylock. $10 for 
    group sites for up to 20 people (50� apiece) or $5.00/individual site if
    you're a latecomer. Most likely no fee at all before mid-May. There's
    hiking available for all abilities and you can even drive to the summit if
    you are so inclined. 

	Once this *^&$*&^# project is over with, I'm planning on doing some
	hiking during mid week.  I'd like to climb washington in April, 
	before the tourists can get to the top.

	Lots of mtns I wanna climb..............


	

    da ve and I are planning a backpacking trip to Passaconaway over
    the Vernal Equinox weekend if anyone's interested. In the event
    extreme cold or bad weather, we'll either head to the Berkshires 
    or Grey Knob depending on our mood.
    
    re: April 4 weekend
    
    Someone in the Hiking notesfile suggests making reservations for leanto
    space at Hermit Lake. So if we're still doing the Tucks trip (ie Jamie), 
    we should decide soon to get the jump on the skiers. Otherwise, nevermind.
    
    - Gerry

    re:                      <<< Note 235.178 by SCOONR::GLADU >>>
    
    >Someone in the Hiking notesfile suggests making reservations for leanto
    >space at Hermit Lake. So if we're still doing the Tucks trip (ie Jamie), 
    >we should decide soon to get the jump on the skiers. Otherwise, nevermind.
    
    I was going to enter another useless "but I thought . . ." note, but I
    had a flash and gave Pinkham Notch Camp a call.  Hermit Lake is 
    first-come, first-served.  You do buy tickets at Pinkham, so I guess
    it's reserved while you're on the trail  :^).  Cost is $6, but that's
    increasing to $7 on Monday (3/16).  I wonder if all the AMC shelter
    prices are going up to $7?  I forgot to ask if one person could buy
    more than 1 ticket.
    
    I have spousal blessing for a trip that weekend, so I guess it's on. 
    Wish I could join you next weekend.  Anyone else interested in an
    April 4 trip?  Would you rather go somewhere else?
    
    Jamie
     

re: <<< Note 235.179 by STUDIO::IDE "now it can be told" >>>
    
    >I was going to enter another useless "but I thought . . ." note
    ...
    >Any else interested in an April 4 trip?  Would you rather go somewhere 
    >else?
    
    Er, yeah, the destination is still open. I just wanted to point out
    that if we *were* doing Tucks, we ought to look into this reservation
    thing. We've got *plenty* of options.
    
    - Gerry

    The time is near, our mission's clear,
    It's later than we think.
    Before we hike into the night,
    We'll want something to drink.
    
    Steal away, into the night,
    And bring us back good booze.
    And if you yell "Eureka!,"
    Don't get it on my shoes.
    
    So, I take it that no one besides me and Gerry is interested in the
    April 4 Whites trip?  Reply now if you want to get in on the fun.
    
    Jamie

Sorrry.

Though the poems nice
And trilliums are thrice
I can't make it to this manly nexus
Cuz my inlaws are visiting from Houston, Texas.

    Well, it looks like just me n' da ve going this weekend. Should be
    a killer weekend for summiting above treeline too. No sub-arctic
    temperatures with 100mph winds and windchills of -110�F this weekend
    for a change! Temps between 5�F & 20�F and fair - springtime has hit 
    the Whites! :-)
    
    - Gerry

    re .-1
    
    Wimps!  :^)  :^)  Wish I could go.  :^(
    
    In my day, we had to chip out our beer with our teeth, thaw the
    razor sharp beer shards under our arms, then lap it up from our sweat
    encrusted pit hair.  And it tasted mighty good after hiking thirty
    miles in bloody frozen rags.  You kids and your "system-this,
    system-that" wouldn't have made it ten feet from the car in my day.
    
    Jamie

have fun

sounds like it'll be a bit more comfy than when we froze our collective butt off
a couple of weekends ago

i'm off to philly this weekend to see phish, but i'd definitely be up for
heading back to the whites sometime soon

- rich

    gotta luv this poetry!!!  :^)  :^)  :^)
    
    count me out on the trip April 3rd...  the band is playine that friday
    and sunday (opening the cove for slipknot and playing a homeless
    benefit in Marblehead)...  
    
    					da ve

I'll probably wanna do my annual spring climb up moosilauke sometime soon...
during the week...

    then you'll be happy to hear that even though the spring has started
    down here (hahahahahahahahaaaaaaa!!!!!) it's still full-on winter
    up there!  the weather in the presidentials was beautiful this
    weekend...  crystal clear days (snow sat) and temps @10-15�...
    nights @-15�...  no winds sunday summitting Adams... almost unlimited 
    visibiity...
    
    probably be a while before i get back up there though...  weekends are
    filling up fast!
    
    					da ve

    Yeah, great weekend. I needed *that*! Perfect "winter" hiking
    weather for summiting Adams on sunday. And good weather saturday, 
    too. Great time just generally goofing off for a couple of hours 
    above treeline on Adams 4 during saturday's snowstorm. 
    
    - Gerry

    Fog and I are doing a recon dayhike to Greylock on sunday, 4/12. We're
    gonna check the camping situation, gate schedule, etc and do a hike
    as well. Anyone is welcome. Moderate hiking.

    re: -.1
    
    oops... I forgot. I guess most people have today off.

    I hiked up North and South Kinsman on Saturday.  Saturday night we
    stayed at the Kinsman Pond shelter.  Stuck to a sign on the shelter
    wall was a silver No Time To Hate sticker.  Anyone in here been 
    there lately?
    
    The hiking was great, but if anyone is planning on heading up north
    soon and hasn't been up for awhile,  be forewarned, there's still 
    lots of snow!  We were postholing up to our thighs and there were
    places were it were it looked to be over 6 feet deep.  Looking across
    at Lincoln and Lafayette, they looked pretty white as well.  The temps
    were warm and a lot was melting partculary down the bottom.  From the
    trailhead to Lonesome lake hut had snow most of the way up on 
    Saturday but on Sunday the bottom half of the trail was pretty well
    bare.  However, there's so much up top, I think it'll be there for a
    few more weeks.  And then watch out for those stream crossing!
    
    Robyn_with_ony_eleven_4000_footers_to_go

  <<< Note 235.192 by TLE::FINAN "The sky was yellow and the sun was blue" >>>

    >I hiked up North and South Kinsman on Saturday.  Saturday night we
    >stayed at the Kinsman Pond shelter.  Stuck to a sign on the shelter
    >wall was a silver No Time To Hate sticker.  Anyone in here been 
    >there lately?
    
    That would be me.

    I figured it was you or maybe da ve.  Anyway, when I got back to 
    the shelter after doing the peaks I was exhausted from postholing
    and wet (it started raining on the way back to North Kinman).
    One of my companions had remained behind at the shelter and 
    noticed the sticker.  When I came back he pointed it out and
    asked if I knew anything about it.  He's not into the dead and
    so was not familiar with the phrase but figured since it had
    a peace sign on it and since he considers me a 60's throw back
    that I'd know.  I smiled and said yes and that I probably even
    "know" who did it.  Then I explained where the phrase came from
    and how T!ng has been sending them to people in the notes file who
    have been sticking them everywhere.  Then Dave says "so what do
    you call the people in the notesfile?  DECheads?"
    
    So Gerry, maybe you can answer another question for me.  I'm 
    nearing the end of my 4000 footers (eleven left) and am trying to
    decide which one to save for last.  I figured the last one 
    should be something special.  I remember you planning your
    last (something about some champagne?) in here or HIKING but I 
    don't remember which one it was (or if you ever did it).  
    Any ideas?  How about da ve or anyother hikers in here?
    
    Here's what I have left:
    
    Garfield
    Galehead
    Carrigain
    Whiteface
    Passaconaway
    Waumbak
    Cabot
    Hale
    Moriah
    Isolation
    Owlshead
    
    Thanks,
    
    Robyn
    

    re .-1
    
    Just about everyone does Owl's Head last, I think.  The approach trail
    is very wet and muddy, so I'd try to do that one in the fall.  Garfield
    has one of my favorite views, from the peak and the campsite.
    
    Speaking of backpacking . . . anyone up for a June Whites trip?
    
    Speaking of snow, I was checking some notes from last year, and I'd
    climbed up to Liberty Springs on April 26 and found no snow up to the
    campsite.  By the end of the weekend, the trail was completely clear up
    to the ridge.  This "Spring" is more typical, I think.
    
    Jamie

    
    hi Robyn!!!  
    
    almost there eh???
    
    i would not so Waumbek, Cabot, Moriah, or Passaconoway last...
    waumbek was pretty but nothin special...  Cabot had no views (but there
    is a rubber chicken up in a tree at the summit! :^)...  Moriah, i was
    cold and the weather was lousy and we couldn't see...  Passaconoway
    isn't much to speak of from what i've been told...
    
    Galehead is not much...  Isolation i've not visited...  Owlshead could
    be a good one...  so could Garfield...  but after the story you told me
    about Whiteface, i think maybe THAT one should have a celebration on it
    after that "trip from hell" :^) ....
    
    					da ve  

  re: <<< Note 235.194 by TLE::FINAN "The sky was yellow and the sun was blue" >>>
    
    I still have 3 left - Passaconaway, Tecumseh and Owl's Head. I'll most
    likely end up doing the 1st two in a weekend of day hikes and Owl's Head 
    on another weekend. I'll probably end up doing Owl's Head last but I'll 
    have to save the Dom Peringon until after I return to the campsite
    because the rules state that one must hike "to and from" a 4ker for it
    to count. 
    
    Of the one's on your list that I've done, Carrigain, Whiteface,
    Garfield are nice candidates for finishers.
    
    Gerry

re: <<< Note 235.195 by STUDIO::IDE "now it can be told" >>>

    >Speaking of backpacking . . . anyone up for a June Whites trip?
    
    Does a Ger shit in the woods? :-) I'd be interested in a Passaconaway
    and Whiteface backpack loop with a possible dayhike up Tecumseh the
    following sunday. That might be aggressive for some, though. I've
    done Whiteface but the camp is near the summit and it's cool to
    hang out there at night. I know Tim Dalton and da ve may be interested
    in that one. Otherwise, I'd probably pass on the Whiteface/Passaconaway
    loop in favor of doing Tecumseh and Passaconaway together some other
    weekend. I'm open to suggestion otherwise.
    
    - Gerry

    re:                  <<< Note 235.198 by RAISE::GLADU >>>

> I'm open to suggestion otherwise.
 
    I'm open to someone telling me when and where to go (backpacking, that
    is).  Someone pick a date in June (other than the first weekend) and a 
    destination and I'll be there.     
    
    Right about now, I'd be up for camping in the Ofefenokee Swamp at the
    height of bug season.  This house buying sure is stressfull -- I've
    already regained all the stress I reduced over the weekend!  :^)
    
    BTW, sometime this summer or fall, I'm planning a long dayhike from Mt.
    Watatic to Mt. Wachusett over the Midstate Trail.  It's ~22 pretty easy
    miles.  Anyone interested in doing something this silly?  :^)  :^)
    
    Jamie

    Well other than June 6 (Buffalo) and June 11 & 12 (Albany), I'm open.
    
    *You* pick the destination cuz mine will surely include 4kers that I 
    don't have. ;-)

    Also, anyone up for a trip for Memorial Day weekend? Somewhere in
    the Green Mountains would probably help defeat the crowds we would
    encounter in the Whites. Jamie, weren't we supposed to go on that
    weekend or have things changed?
    
    Gerry

No thanks, SIS @ NF&G is that weekend and is too much of a tradition for me.

    re .-2
    
    Things have somewhat changed.  The friend I'm going with just got back
    from 7 weeks in Egypt and his girlfriend doesn't want to be abandoned
    over the long weekend, so it's devolving into car camping.  The other
    reason for it is that my friend only has hiking gear for summer
    conditions and it sounds like there'll be snow still around. 
    Destination is still probably trhe Whites -- there's talk of a trip to
    Tuck's, so I was thinking of doing a ridge traverse and meeting them
    there.  Plans should be hashed out this weekend, I'll let you know.
    
    I didn't find the mountains too crowded last Mem. weekend, and it was
    much nicer last year.  Labor Day was a different story.  I usually
    leave work early on Friday and snag a spot.
    
    I'll check your list of remaining 4kers and pick one, probably.  Does
    Tim D. have any preference?  Anyone else interested?
    
    Still planning on doing the Long Trail this fall?
    
    Jamie

re: Note 235.203 by STUDIO::IDE 

>Destination is still probably trhe Whites -- there's talk of a trip to
>Tuck's, so I was thinking of doing a ridge traverse and meeting them there.  
    
    Do you mean 1/2 a ridge traverse then down Tucks or the whole ridge
    then drive around? If the former, plan on camping up there at all? 
    Like under Lakes?
    
>Does Tim D. have any preference?  
    
    Haven't asked yet. He might have Whiteface/Passaconaway in mind
    since we froze up there last january at 25 below and didn't make 
    the loop. You'll be at the camping trip right?
    
>Still planning on doing the Long Trail this fall?
 
    Nope. Hitting the Veneta shows then spending 2 weeks above treeline on 
    glacial/alpine terrain in the North Cascades training with a technical 
    mountaineering school. There's a few peaks I want to bag in the next
    couple of years that require skills that I currently do not possess.
    
    After that I'll meet da ve and BilleJules in Seattle for a week of sea 
    kayaking and backpacking on the Olympic Peninsula and perhaps hit the 
    Bumpershoot Festival there as well. Action packed, to say the least.
 
    Gerry

  I'll be travelling through all of these places during my vacation end of May/
  early June (YIPPEEE!!!)  Can anyone recommend (or point me to a note) some
  nice day hikes in these areas?

  Thanks,

  Simone

re:                      <<< Note 235.204 by RAISE::GLADU >>>

>    Do you mean 1/2 a ridge traverse then down Tucks or the whole ridge
>    then drive around? If the former, plan on camping up there at all? 
>    Like under Lakes?
 
    Half . . . Crawford Depot to Pinkham Camp.  Just an idea I had this
    morning.  I don't wanna stay in no dungeon.  :^)
       
>Does Tim D. have any preference?  
    
    >Haven't asked yet. He might have Whiteface/Passaconaway in mind
    >since we froze up there last january at 25 below and didn't make 
    >the loop.
    
    That'd be fine with me.
    
    >You'll be at the camping trip right?
    
    Nope.  :^(  I rilly want to, but I can't miss seeing a good friend who
    will be out from LA.
    
    Jamie

how many 4000 footer's are there?

- rich, who's up for doing some hiking this summer, as long as it's warmer
than 25 below

>how many 4000 footer's are there?

	The official AMC list (there are other lists, but this seems to be the
one most commonly used) has 48 4000 footers in New Hampshire, 12 in Maine, and
5 in Vermont.  To be on the list, it had to have been considered >4000 foot at
some point (new surveys show some (like Whiteface?) are actually just under),
and rise at least 200 feet above the col (low-point) of the ridge connecting it
with a taller mountain (if any).  The list is published in the back of the AMC
White Mountain Guide.

Mark (with 23 of the 48 left to go)

    re: .207 (Rich)
    
    There are 48 4000 footers in NH, 65 total in New England.
    
    re: .195 (Jamie)
    
    Actually I've heard lots about Owls head, mostly negative so I
    was planning on ruling that out of the list of candidates but then
    thought well if its that tough then it might make a dramatic 
    finale.  I'm dying to try it just to see if its as bad as everyone
    says.
    
    re: .196 (da ve)
    
    Hey, I kind of like the idea of Whiteface last!  A double 
    celebration!! I also heard Passaconaway is nothing special
    but a Passaconaway/whiteface loop would make a nice backpack.
    Apparently there's a real nice place to camp on or near
    Whiteface.  Actually though Whiteface probably wont be my
    last since I have some friends that are already planning
    a whiteface/passaconnay trip in a couple of weeks (don't
    think I can squeeze the rest in before then).  Maybe I'll
    just try to convince them that they really want to do something
    else...
    
    re: .197 (GerryG)
    
    Saving the Champagne for the bottom has a great side effect -
    a lighter pack on the way up!  I'd always thought about
    celebrating on the summit, but you definitely have a point
    and I'm always up for lightening the load.
    
    Thanks all and Happy hiking,
    
    Robyn
    

    re: .208 (notes collision)
    
    Mark, you beat me to it, but I'll get you back by finishing my 4000
    footers first :^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^)
    
    Robyn
    

	But Robyn, I have to be faster at *something*!  :-) :-)

	Have I suggested that you save your last 4000 footer as new year's
celebration?  :) :) 

Mark

    Re: 48 NH 4kers
    
    There are far more than 48 4kers in New Hampshire but only 48 as
    defined by the AMC. I'd be interested in joining anyone who plans to
    hike Passaconaway, Tecumseh and/or Owl's Head in the very near future.
    Like to finish 'em before july.
    
    As for celebrating on the summit... we do *that* on every summit! ;-)
    That's what summit beers and rubber chickens are for!!! :-) They always 
    make an appearance on a previously unconquered 4ker (and on most previously
    conquered ones and non-4kers as well, I might add ;-). 
    
    As for the final celebration, a 4ker is not complete until you return 
    from the summit. So, unfortunately, the Dom Perignon will have to be 
    enjoyed back at the campsite. However, weight doesn't factor in at all
    as anyone who's hiked with me before can attest. Anyone remember who 
    ported 26 beers (2 per dechead hiker) up Osceola on a previous dechead 
    trip? Hmmm? Despite the handicap, BillP and I got to the summit about 
    an hour ahead of everyone else and, unfortunately for them, did in much
    of the beer before they got there. They were startin to get warm, you 
    know. ;-)
    
    Gunga_F'n_Din_G

    I was talking to some friends last night about hiking, and we got
    wondering why someone would want to hike a case of beer up a mountain.
    For the sake of efficiency we thought it might be more reasonable, if
    you really wanted some alcoholic beverages, to bring a flask of rum or
    something.
    
    Scott_thinkin_about_hiking_Monadnock_sunday_for_practice
    (assuming no rain or snow)
    

    >> wondering why someone would want to hike a case of beer up a mountain.
    
    Why, to drink it of course ... ;^)
    
    						... Bobbb
    

    
    That's easy, rum isn't beer. :-)

    why ask why??  (tm)  :^)
    
    i earned my Gunga-F'in-Din badge on the Zealand Notch/Ethan Pond trip
    with a few folks in here a couple of years ago...  carried a
    case-o-beer and almost everybody's water!!  my pack was lighter by
    several pounds on the way out!
    
    					da ve_who's_jazzed_for_a_hike_
    					and_a_glass-o-wine_or_two :^)

    re .216
    
    If you're talking about the trip I was on, it was less than 9 mos. ago
    -- don't overlook time distortion!!
    
    I'll never forget the taste of hot beer on top of Willey or Field. 
    Uggh!!  Then you ate sardines!  UUuuggghhhh!!!
    
    Come to think of it:
    
    '91 DECHead trip: da ve's fire gets out of hand and we stomp madly
    trying to put it out.  Plus he almost kills us with his axe handling.
    
    Thoreau Falls Trip: da ve's fire gets out of hand and we stomp madly
    trying to put it out.  No axe trouble this time.
    
    jamie

    there is one camping hazard you have neglected to mention and
    must always be on the lookout for...
    
    
    		da valanche!!!!!!!!!!
    
    			:^)
    
    actually, my gunga badge was earned on another trip to the same area...
    Bobbbb probably remembers that one...  :^)  i remember it because my
    pack weighed a ton and just as we got to the proposed campsite, one
    couple annouced that they had to be back in worcester early the next
    morning and that they had to camp a lot closer to the road! (this
    is at nightfal as the temps start plummeting!  the trip where we met
    "earth day Jay")...
    
    						da ve

re  <<< Note 235.209 by TLE::FINAN "The sky was yellow and the sun was blue" >>>

>    Apparently there's a real nice place to camp on or near
>    Whiteface.  Actually though Whiteface probably wont be my
>    last since I have some friends that are already planning
>    a whiteface/passaconnay trip in a couple of weeks (don't
>    think I can squeeze the rest in before then).  Maybe I'll
>    just try to convince them that they really want to do something
>    else...

Pass/White loop would be cool.  I hiked Whiteface in late November and we
also planned to do Passaconaway but I was overruled and we decided to head
back down (the weather had turned poor).  There are 2 or 3 shelters in
various conditions within 1/2 mile of Whiteface.  I still have Passaconaway to
go, along with several others.

I do want to climb Carrigain as a 2-day trip.  I could do it in one, but, I
just want to kick back, hike in, stay overnight in the woods, and hike back out
the next day (going over carrigain one way)....

Is anyone into taking days off for day hikes?  I have so much vacation time
(> 7 weeks) plus hiking on the weekdays really cuts down on other humans on
the trails.

JC

    re .-1  read on . . .
    
    Gerry and I and maybe Tim Dalton are planning a trip on June 20/21.  I
    just checked the date and the 20th is Summer Soltice, which gives the
    trip an added dimension of pagan worshipping potential.  It looks like
    Passaconaway/Whiteface is the destination.
    
    Plus, survivors can title their account of the disaster "The Longest
    Day."  :^)
    
    Anyone interested?
    
    Jamie

Sorry, can't make it, but if Geoff Sampson comes along, don't follow him, 
particularly if he's toting a GPS box...

:-/


<><><><><><><><>  T h e   V O G O N   N e w s   S e r v i c e  <><><><><><><><>

 Edition : 2572             Thursday  7-May-1992            Circulation :  8157 


VNS TECHNOLOGY WATCH:                           [Mike Taylor, VNS Correspondent]
=====================                           [Littleton, MA, USA            ]

                         Who Knows Where Your Are?
                         The Satellite Knows

    Michael Morvice wanted his Minute Man Delivery service in Gardena
    Ca., to live up to its name. A big obstacle: dispatching the 40
    truck fleet efficiently. Dispatchers had to remember each driver's
    route and were constantly squawking over two way radios to track
    their drivers. Now, dispatchers know at all times where each truck
    is and can alter routes all day long to add last minute pickups.
    Morvice says he can dispatch a truck a truck in half the time. The
    technology that is speeding up Minute Man, called global positioning 
    system (GPS), has a huge potential in all sorts of businesses, from
    tracking cargo on ocean going freighters to guiding jumbo jets.
    Developed by the US DoD at a cost of $3 billion over the past 15
    years, GPS proved itself in the gulf war when soldiers were able to
    pinpoint their position the trackless desert by consulting boxes the 
    size of paperback books that took readings from satellites. By
    locking on to four satellites, a receiver can determine its position 
    to within 16 meters. By adding a second stationary receiver,
    readings can be refined to centimeter accuracy.

    Now companies ranging from tiny Minute Man to Sony Corp. and
    NorthWest Airlines Inc. are trying to adapt GPS for widespread
    civilian use. By combining GPS signals with other data, such as
    digitized land maps, more intriguing systems are possible. For
    example, intelligent vehicle tracking systems could show drivers on 
    small dashboard computer systems, how to circumvent a traffic jam or 
    where the nearest automatic teller machine is located. Stephen
    Colwell, president of Colwell-Kirtland International, a Sunnyvale
    Ca. consultant, says more than $100 million worth of GPS receivers, 
    about a third of the total market, were sold to nonmilitary users in 
    1991. For this year, he projects sales of $600 million, two-thirds
    of which will be civilian applications. 

    While the market remains small, the early commitment by such big
    names is impressive considering that the US government still
    considers GPS experimental. Worse for customers, when the system
    becomes fully operational in late 1993, DoD intends to continue to
    artificially degrading the signals for national security reasons. By
    fudging the clocks' signals by nanoseconds, the military is able to
    throw receivers off by as much as 100 meters. That is enough to keep
    an enemy from using the GPS signals to launch a missile. Critics say
    it is also enough to slow down many commercial plans. Bob Buley
    claims that anyone with enough receivers and computing savy will be
    able to get accurate readings anyway. And if they can not, there is
    always GLONASS, or Global Navigation Satellite System, a Navstar
    clone developed by the former Soviet Union. Although not as well
    developed as the US system, GLONASS is being tested by Northwest and 
    United Airlines. There may also be other options. Private satellite
    networks designed for voice and data communications, such as
    Motorola's Iridium system, can also emit signals for use in location 
    tracking. Loral and Qualcomm are also working on a string of low
    orbiting satellites called Globalstar that will provide cellular
    communications and positioning data.

    As knowledge of GPS grows, so do potential uses. Satlock Inc., a
    small startup in Stanfield Az., is developing a GPS based navigation 
    aid that will help aerial crop sprayers spread fertilizers and
    pesticides more effectively. Instead of dropping 5x5  inch cards
    with toilet-paper streamers or replying on farmhands holding
    flagpoles to mark their last pass, the system uses readings from
    satellites to keep an accurate record of where they have flown over
    a crop field. A similar system has been tested for spreading from
    tractors. By avoiding overspraying and overfertilizing, GPS is
    expected to save money and reduce pollution.
    {Business Week February 10, 1992}


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
        Please send subscription and backissue requests to CASEE::VNS

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<><><><><><><><>   VNS Edition : 2572    Thursday  7-May-1992   <><><><><><><><>

Mark "waltzing with bears" Eklof, some (not Deadhead) friends, and I are 
heading up to do Passaconaway and Whiteface this weekend as a backpack.  I 
really want to do a backpack and of the ones I have left these are the furthest
south and that hopefully means less snow.

Anyone else up for some post holing, oops, I mean hiking this weekend?

Robyn

	I'm doing Willey, Tom and Field on Sunday, if anyone wants to tag along.

Mark

i had been planning on heading up somewhere in the white mtns this weekend

who (and what phone number) can i call to get a weather forcast for the
mountains ?

- rich

 I know you can call 1-900-WEATHER (under 18 get your parent's permission) and
 follow the diretions they give you..




 Jum

    
    When your done with listening to the weather message, if you wait on
    the line you can have a conversation with a bunch of people, it's 
    wicked funny.  My Dad showed me how showed me how he discovered
    it purely by mistake...what I riot.  There was this girl there
    going "hey! hey! whats your number" after I said hello. 

re: Note 235.225 by TECRUS::FROMM 
    
>who (and what phone number) can i call to get a weather forcast for the
>mountains ?

    Rule o'thumb - If you can't see the mountains, it's raining. If you
    can see 'em, it's going to rain. :-) :-) :-)
    
    Wet_IdiotG

National Weather Service, Concord, NH	603-225-5191 (recording)
for additional information:	603-228-1997

or call pinkham notch...

    
        i'll be heading into the whites early saturday morning with a
    couple of friends. this is my first real backpacking expedition,
    (my friends are experienced). we're heading out from bartlett to
    ascend mt. parker, and then on to giant stairs (and possibly the
    dome) and then up the isolation trail. we'll have a second vehicle
    parked at a trailhead NE of bartlett (forgot the name). we decided
    on mt. parker based on some info i got from the hiking conference
    entered by bobbb bailey in 1987. :^)
                                                       ^dave

Have a grate hike!  Bring lots of warm clothes, I'd expect temps _and_ winds 
in the 40's!

    
       i'm packing wool socks and a wool sweater along with my thermals
     and swearshirts, but think i'll pack a hat too. the weather channel
     said low 50's, but if the wind kicks in.....
                                                   ^dave
    

A 60 pound pack weighs alot less than a 35 pound kid when hiking up a 
mountain.

geoff

    RE :  .231
    
    you and how many others ALL_AT_ONCE????   :-)
    
    seriously though, bring warm stuff.  John did Monadnock this Tuesday and
    even there it was cold, foggy, drizzly misery.  Not to mention a
    chopper playing around to see if it could land if it had to.  the
    answer was 'no - not in this high wind.'
    
    c 

Thought I'd put this in here since it sounds like a nice hike that folks might 
like to check out sometime.  It's is near Sugarloaf/USA ski area, about 4 1/2 
hours or so from Boston.

I'm doing this hike next weekend (Sept 12) with a couple friends - if you're up 
for it just drop me a note.

Scott

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

The Crockers
------------

Endeavor:  Moderate
Distance:  14-mile loop
Hiking time:  7.5 hours, overnight option
Summit height:  4168 feet (Crocker Mtn), 4010 feet (South Crocker) above sea 
		level
Elevation gain:  2700 feet (to north summit) from starting point
Map:  Maine Atlas Map 29, D-3

An interesting and challanging circut of the Crockers is made over the 
Appalachian Trail.  It includes an overnight in the campsite in Crocker Cirque, 
with its cluster of beaver ponds and a stream, and a descent into the Caribou 
Valley and the picturesque South Branch of the Carrabassett River.  The 
14-mile loop returns to the trailhead via the Caribou Valley road, a recently 
improved logging road which may now have a locked gate just south of the A.T. 
trailhead [note - it does not - sw].  This road follows the South Branch along 
part of its course and reaches Route 25, 1.5 miles south of the Crocker 
parking area.

The Appalachian Trail to Crocker Mountain is reached by following Route 27 for 
17.4 miles north from Kingfield or 2.5 miles north from the Sugarloaf Ski Area 
access road.  The trail leaves from the south side of the highway.  There is 
ample parking and an Appalachian Trail sign with trail information and milages.

The trail begins its 5-mile ascent of Crocker through open woods, crossing a 
stream at .3 mile and a small blowdown area at 1.5 mile.  As it winds up 
Crocker's north shoulder, the trail swings around west and slabs along just 
below the crest of the ridgeline, holding the contour line through open birch 
groves with views back toward Stratton, Flagstaff Lake, and the mountains north 
of Rangeley.  At 3.5 miles the trail begins to climb more steeply into spruce 
woods.  Here a spring on the left is marked with orange ribbons.  At 5 miles 
the sign identifying the summit of Crocker Mountain (4168 feet) is reached.  
The views have improved since the dense spruce have been cut back and/or blown 
down.  Saddleback and the alpine summits of Mt. Abraham are especially 
prominent.

The trail then descends steeply in a col, with good views to the south side 
toward Sugarloaf.  At .5 mile the low point of the col is reached, from which 
it is another .5 mile over a brief flat section and then up to the summit of 
South Crocker, which is thickly wooded and has no views.

The white-blazed Appalachain Trail then heads southeast toward the Caribou 
Valley and Sugarloaf by descending through spruce, gently at first and then 
more steeply, to emerge onto open rock slides, noted by a geological survey 
marker.  The trail then bends left back into the woods and bears left again for 
the vertical drop down a steep rocky pitch into Crocker Cirque.  This .3-mile 
straight vertical decent over open crumbled rock requires the use of hands and 
is the most difficult section of the trip.  The floor of the cirque has been 
flodded into ponds by beavers which dammed a small brook.  Near this point, 
1.1 miles from the summit of South Crocker and 7.1 miles from the trailhead on 
Route 27, is a blue-blazed side trail leading left to the Crocker Cirque 
campsite, .2 mile into a birch grove, with tent platforms, water, and an 
outhouse.

From the cirque, the Applalachian Trail is picked up again and followed .9 mile 
to the Caribou Valley road.  An interesting side hike before turning onto the 
road back to the highway can be found by following the Appalachian Trail 
another .25 mile east across the Caribou Valley where it bridges the scenic 
South Branch of the Carrabssett River.  (After crossing the river, the 
Appalachian Trail ascends Sugarloaf and then turns south to Spaulding 
Mountain.)

The Crocker trailhead is reached by returning to the Caribou Valley road which 
leads 4.5 miles back to Route 27.  It is then 1.5 miles northwest on Route 27 
to the Crocker parking area.

    re .-1
    
    Haven't you learned to avoid any hike that's in a 50 Hiking Trips or
    whatever book?  :^)  :^)  Seriously, have fun.
    
    WBZ interviewed a WMNF ranger the other day and said that Tripoli Road
    would have 3 cops patrolling it 24 hrs/day this weekend!!  Sounds like
    fun.  :^/
    
    Jamie

	You should expect temps in the 30s, easily, espec. at night and on 
	peaks.  Mt Wash has been in the 20s this week (coldest).

	becareful with the cold/wind/rain.

RE: Jamie

Hey, I wrote that myself!  ;^)  Actually, I've already checked this one out 
(two or three weeks ago) and although I haven't camped there, that is an 
accurate description.  Besides, I'm biased to that area (family roots).

Scott 8^)

    
      thanx for the warnings about the cold weather (30's? brrrrr...) i'll
    make sure i'm well prepared just in case. i think i'll pick up one of
    those space-saving blankets for added warmth at night. the weather
    channel predicts nice weather during the days though, clear skies
    and warm temps for sat. and sun. :^)
                                                         ^dave

    The weather radio channel, I think I listen to 3 at home, 163.55 MHz,
    has reported day time temps of 25 F within the last week or so. I think
    there was only 40 mph winds at that time. I would be prepared for cold
    if I were going up Washinton this weekend, but I'm going toward the
    Vinyard instead so I'm only preparing for cool. 
    
    	Looks like a real nice weekend coming up with a high pressure
    system bringing clear skies and moderate breezes! 
    
    Geoff 

    Had to write about the grate hike I had!
    
    Drove up to Mt. Lincoln (Grand Junction, CO) with some of my friends
    neighbors last Tuesday in their Toyota 4-Runner.  They parked there,
    I hiked _almost_ to the top of Mt. Garfield.  Was up almost 6,000'.
    Absolutely amazing video.  Overlooks the valley of Grand Junction,
    Fruita, Clifton, etc., etc.
    
    Good thing to do on my own, but next time Chris will have to come
    with me.  Too romantic to be alone!
    
    :) sparky_adjusting_to_the_time_difference_and_altitude_change
    

    I've been a read only noter until now. It seems from the notes that
    I've read I could get a lot of info from this group. Here's the story:
    
    
    My wife, a friend and I will be traveling to Colorado and Utah this June
    and I looking for help and info. Right now our plans are to spend the
    first 4 days of our trip camping at the Coral Pink Sand Dunes NP in Utah,
    traveling to the North Rim of the Grand Canyon and doing some day
    hikes. On the 26th of June leaving Utah and heading into Colorado to
    the Leadville area to do some day hikes, sightseeing etc. Then heading
    backto Mass. on July 1. 
    
    My questions:
    
    1) How long a trip from the Chicago area to Southern Utah?
    
    2) Any info on the North Rim for day hikes?
    
    3) Any info on Byrce and Zion?
    
    4) Any info on Coral Pink Sand Dunes?
    
    5) How long a trip from the above to Leadville?
    
    6) Right now we plan on staying at Sugarloafin Campground ( near
       Leadville ) or Crazy Horse Campground ( in Buena Vista ), any
       recommendations around this ?
    
    7) Any info on day hikes around this area of CO. ( we'd like to get to
       the Continental Divide for a day hike if possible ) ?
    
    8) Any other suggestions and info welcomed.
    
    
    Thanks for any help in advance. None of us making this trip have ever
    been to this area so all the help and info you can provide will be
    great.
    
    
    Chris
                                     

    Hi Chris,
    
    I have some info at home on the North Rim, and I can bring it in
    tomorrow (I'll send it to you via Email)....I got this great travel
    book with lots of info for all of that area...its got lots of phone
    numbers and stuff like that....
    
    Chris

    Hey Chris Kupiek, 
    I saw yer note in COLO notesfile also, I don't know anything about most
    of the questions you are asking, but i do have a shack just the other
    side of Leadville over Mousquito pass in the highest town in AmeriKa, 
    Alma. You are quite welcome to use it for some of the time you'll be in
    the leadville/buena vista area, we'll most likely be there too. 
    let's talk off-line when we both get a chance...I'm busy as hell right
    now (can't ya tell? %^) ) but there's plenty of time....errr you r a
    deadhead, right? 
    
    rfb

Hey kids,


Next week, would anyone be into hiking up Mt Watatic and check out the sunset?
We should aim for a day when the weather is favorable.

Watatic is an x-ski area in Ashburnham, MA - I remember skiing there as a 
kid.  It stands at just under 2000', and takes about 45 mins to ascend.  You
won't need crampons, ropes, a full frame pack of junk, etc for this hike!
You could probably do it in sneakers and tote along a sweatshirt and a wind-
breaker.

On days when the pollution is not bad, you can see Boston.  The view is nearly
360deg from the top; easily 360deg if you ascend the fire tower.  

Takes about 45-60mins to get there from Littleton, via route 119.  
We could rondevous at LKG and split absolutely no later then 5:15pm.

Anyone up for it?

    
    Hey JC,
    
    Count me and Stacy in if it's on Wednesday or Thursday of next week.
    
    TreeMON

    I'd be up for it.  How far is littleton from marlboro?
    
    	Mike

    I might be up for it.  You can do a nice loop hike frm the parking lot,
    and visit the mid-state trail terminus marker and state boundary
    monument!  OOoooh.  :-)
    
    I plan to hike from Watatic to Wachusett this fall.  Any interest?
    
    Jamie

	I need a good weeknight hike...I'm good for Thurs!


	

    can't commit on the watatic sunset march...  depends on when it's
    happening...  however, the watatic->wachusett trek sounds like fun!
    what's the mileage?
    
    				da ve

    re .-1
    
    20-25 easy miles.  There's always Monadnock to Wachusett if that's too
    easy.  :-)
    
    Jamie

45 minutes to climb Watatic???  Man you must not hike anything at all like 
you drive, Mon!  You musta meant round trip, including lunch, yes?

:-)

re            <<< Note 235.253 by CSCMA::M_PECKAR "Be kind: unwind" >>>


>45 minutes to climb Watatic???  Man you must not hike anything at all like 
>you drive, Mon!  You musta meant round trip, including lunch, yes?

well, i can't say that i have timed it [i don't wear a watch].  i tend to 
hike faster then the average person.... ask geoff sampson or scott wentzell
:-)

if it's wed or thurs (and i get over this nasty cold by then) then i'm up
for it

- rich

	Howdy ya'll


	so.... this week, THIS THURSDAY.... let's try to shoot for the
	Mt Watatic hike after work, pending fair weather.  we should pretty
	much know by weds whether or not the weather is gonna cooperate.

	i figure this plan:

	meet at LKG parking lot around 5:00-5:15;  try to head over to
	Watatic by 5:15-5:30.

	i can take 2 addt'l passengers, maybe 3 if deb does not go.
	
	who's game??????????????????????????/

	I'm going JC!

This sounds interesting, but I have to check to see if I can make it at 5.

tim

>	meet at LKG parking lot around 5:00-5:15;  try to head over to
>	Watatic by 5:15-5:30.

is that Littleton?  the site near Kimball's?

- clueless-rich

Yes, that's Littleton, but there are several parking lots.  Which one did
you have in mind, JC?

tim

    Let's see, JC says to meet at 5:00-5:15 and get to Watatic for
    5:15-5:30.  Okay, if it takes him approx. 15mins to get there then Watatic
    must be at least 30-40 miles away from Littleton.
    
    Won't taking a couple of other people along slow that to abouta 16
    or 17 minute drive?
    
    
    Many :-)            
    
    Marv
    

    This sounds like it could be a fun easy hike. I'm kinda sorta into it.
    If I'm a days work away from launching my boat, I'll probably be very 
    determined to get it all done.
    
    Geoff
    Man, I hope I can go sailing this weekend!!!!!
    

>I'm kinda sorta into it.

are you sure you're not getting a bit too enthused?

:^)  :-)  :-/

/rich

    
    Unless something happens between now and then, Stacy and I'll be
    there.
    
    Tree_:^)

re                    <<< Note 235.261 by TRACTR::MACINTYRE >>>
                            -< 2 miles per minute? >-

>    Let's see, JC says to meet at 5:00-5:15 and get to Watatic for
>    5:15-5:30.  Okay, if it takes him approx. 15mins to get there then Watatic
>    must be at least 30-40 miles away from Littleton.
 
ah, that was try to head over to Watatic by 5:15-5:30, as in leave littleton
by that time?? !!  

btw, my mustang has a sick brake i need to tend too, so, i'll be driving
deb's nova;  don't worry, it doesn't move too fast... automatic 1.6 litre
compared to 5spd 5.0 litre in the 'stang.  which reminds me, i need to check
the timing on the bogva, er, nova.


re; lots

i'd say the easiest lot to meet at can be described as this:

- head to into the LKG complex via the ROUTE 119 entrance, closest to 495 (not
  the King St entrance).

- take your first left into the first parking lot you get to.  park as close
to the entrance road as possible.   wave other decheads over...


re: hike

this hike is _very_ easy folks!  there is no need to put hrs of preparation
or training, etc. into this one, trust me!  it is as simple as bringing a
sweat shirt and windbreaker, a couple of brews, something to chow, and some
shades to protect you from the sun.  that is it....!  we're talkin' under
2k feet high.

    It seems I have forgotten a prior commitment for tomorrow evening and
    won't be able to make it.  Have a good time.  Perhaps I can make it next 
    time.
    
    tim
    

    I'd like to go, but I have no idea how to get to LKG.  Could someone
    either give me directions on how to get there from MRO, or if there is
    someone coming from MRO could I have a ride?
    
    	mike_who_would_appreciate_not_having_to_deal_with_directions

re                    <<< Note 235.267 by VXTST6::BOURDESS >>>

>    I'd like to go, but I have no idea how to get to LKG.  Could someone
>    either give me directions on how to get there from MRO, or if there is
>    someone coming from MRO could I have a ride?
 
It is easy...  495 NORTH to the 119/littleton common exit.  left off the
exit.  left into the digital driveway _before_ the light.  left into the
closest parking lot.




TOMORROW is the day folks............. let's check the weather tomorrow and
if it looks promising, go for it.

>if there is
>    someone coming from MRO could I have a ride?

i'd be glad to stop by and pick you up on my way from HLO

- rich

>>if there is
>>    someone coming from MRO could I have a ride?

>i'd be glad to stop by and pick you up on my way from HLO

>- rich
    
    thanx, now I can still ride my bike tommorrow.
    
    	Mike

weather looks ok for the watatic ascent!

it looks like just the 3 of us, or, are there others?

	me
	rich fromm
	mark

lets meet at pking lot i described ~5:15 and then hit the road.  i'll be
at spitbrook all afternoon for a mtg but expect to make it back by 5.15pm

>it looks like just the 3 of us, or, are there others?

>	me
>	rich fromm
>	mark

mike, are you still going?  (or is the "mark" supposed to read "mike")

/r

>it is as simple as bringing a
>sweat shirt and windbreaker, a couple of brews, something to chow, and some
>shades to protect you from the sun.

DOOH!  forgot to pack some food
(same with sunscreen)

- rich

>it looks like just the 3 of us, or, are there others?
    
    I'll be there.
    
    	Mike

	I plan on being there....may leave LJO1 at 4:30 and
	blast right o'er to Watatic...havn't decided yet....

Well, Deano, Deano's_friend, roch fromm, mike, and i did the watatic thing
last night.  clear views!  could see boston w/ no problem.  watchusett still
has some snow on the trails too!

blackflies are out and they are beginning to bite.
Welcome to spring!!

Black flies don't be me!

    
    ...But i am you...*;')

I'm pondering a tuckerman's ascent this Friday....

    Read Only Alert!!!
    
    JC, I had planned on going up to Tucks on Friday to possibly ski, but a
    call to the AMC at Pinkham Notch changed my mind.
    
    The headwall was closed due to dangereous icing conditions. Also, the 
    trail up was a soaking mess...
    
    I suggest calling the AMC. Their # is 603-466-2721. I asked for the ski
    conditions, if you tell them you'r just hiking, hopefully the report
    won't be as grim.
    
    Good luck,
    -dave

I typically call Pinkham or the Mt. Wash Obs for weather _before_ heading
up north....if you are gonna spend all that effort, it is best to spend it
on a nice day for maximum enjoyment (my philosophy). 

thanks for putting in the call information mon!!  

i've been jonesin' for a good hike for a quite some time now; is there anybody
else who hasn't yet made plans for the upcoming 3 day weekend that might
be interested in a serious hike somewhere in vt/nh/me ?

- rich

re: hiking

I may go this thursday, weather permitting.

>re: hiking
>I may go this thursday, weather permitting.

i meant an overnite hike, not just a day hike
i don't have enough vacation time to take off a day for a hike

/rich

    
    Hey Springs Heads,
      Anyone interested in Hiking Lincoln, Bross, and Democrat Mts this
    Saturday?   It is supposed to be a pretty easy way to knock out 3 
    14'ers in 1 day.   We'll be taking the road out to Kite Lake and
    starting the hike from there.  If anyone is interested, let me know
    and we'll work it out.
    
    	Mark  

    hey MNELSON, Tumbledown is on the way to those 14'ers! 
    Let's talk, you guys can stop in for a beer. I might even drive up 
    Kite Lake with ya just to see the flowers. That used to be one of our
    favorite flower watchin places, till the FS graded out the 4x4 places
    and made the camp ground (highest camp ground in AmeriKa!) accesable to
    5th wheelers and cars. Emma Lake above Kirte lake is INTENSE! I took
    GerrG and the Billitiers up to it a couple of years ago, we watched
    this guy and chick and 4 dogs put on rain slickers on top of Democrat
    and slide all the way down th eEmma lke on snow fields! Somethin like
    several 100 yards!
    
    rfb

    Hey rfb,
    
    When you're watching flowers, what do they do?
    
    tim
    

    grow, man, grow...sometimes several feet!
    
    Once when flower watchin up Kite Lake area Patty and I saw this dark
    purple/blue area comin out of a water fall about 1/4 mile away. We
    thought it was water. When we hiked over to the area, the purple/blue
    water turned out to be 'bout 10 different species of mountain bluebells
    growing in the flood plane of the waterfall. Beautiful...not every year
    is as intense, depends on the snowfall, runnoff/meltoff and rain. The
    year GerrG and the Billitiers came out was one of the worst for flower
    watchin, although GerrG was amazed at the difference between Colo
    upland tundra and the tundra in New England. 
    
    rfb

anybody up for a weekend backpacking trip somewhere in new england?  i haven't
done any serious hiking this entire summer, and i'm really jonesin' for a trip
somewhere

- rich

    Rich, there'll be news of a get-together with Ger in the Whites
    sometime soon.  It'll be a weekend and probably at the Perch (near Gray
    Knob).
    
    Jamie

i was hoping to do something this weekend, as it may be the last free weekend
i have for a while

- rich

since my last attempt at organizing a hike failed, i might as well try again...

i'd like to go hiking somewhere in New England (probably somewhere in the
White's) over labor day weekend; as a minimum, i'd want to head on up late
Friday afternoon, camp out and hike from Friday night through Monday (3 days of
hiking), and return home on Monday; i'm even thinking about taking either
Friday and/or Thursday off and turning it into a bit of a longer expedition
(up to 5 days of hiking)

anyone interested in joining me?  this time if i can't find someone else to
go with me, i'm seriously considering just doing it alone

- rich

	Rich,

	I can probably join you for most of the weekend....



	Deane_who's_single_now_and_needs_to_try'n_keep_busy

My aunt and her boyfriend, who were hiking the AT and made it as far as CT,
have since left the trail and are staying with me for a week.  Since they
didn't make it into the White's, they'd like to see at least a bit of it while
they're still in the Northeast.  We'd like to do a day hike somewhere in the
White's sometime this week.

Looking for something somewhat serious, with nice views, but not something
quite as strenous as Mt. Washington (and not something with a cafeteria on
top :-)  Maybe 10-12 miles round trip.  Anyone have any suggestions?  I have
the AMC White Mountain guide, so just a pointer to a trail or mountain would
be sufficient.

- Rich

	Rich,

	I enjoyed Mt Willey and Field in the Crawford Notch.

	Pretty serious hiking, yet uncrowded, pretty much centralized
	in the Whites.

Pick something in the northern presidentials (like Jeffeson or Adams via 
Lowes Path), or along the Franconia Ridge: these are my two favorites in 
the White's. make sure you have easier, less exposed alternatives if the 
weather is off a bit or its windy out...

I would not suggest WIley or Field if you are looking for views.  Field is
tree-covered, Wiley is not much better.  Also, easy hike... :-) for me that
is!!!


I'd suggest Moosilauke -

	- view of the franconia range, kinsmans  (east)
	- view of osceloa, techumseh, etc.  (east)
	- view of the green mts in VT (stowe, mt. ellen, camel's hump).

one of the best view in the whites if the haze and pollution is not too bad.
park at the DOC HQ (look at the map, you'll see it);  as you look at moose.
from the parking lot, go up the left flank (south), traverse the mt, and down
the right side.  good elevation gain; and excellent views.

another one to check out is Garfield;  although you can't see much to the
east or west due to other ranges in the way... but, you get a most excellent
view of the Pemi. Wilderness..............

    re .294
    
    If you're going mid-week, the loop over Franconia Ridge via Falling
    Waters and the Old Bridal Path is a good choice.  It has everything
    that characterize the Whites: valley walks, waterfalls, steep trails,
    exposed ridges, and an AMC hut.  It's ~9 miles, 5-6 hrs.  Take the side
    trail to Shining Rock, it's worth it.
    
    The northern Pressies would be a good choice for a weekend . . . get the
    good map, the AMC one is too large a scale to show the dense web of
    trails in the area.
    
    Jamie

Mousilauke is nice, but for out of town visitors, its not great: the summit 
is "trashed" and you see an awful lot of clearcuts from the top. Beaver 
Brook Trail is one of the nicest hikes, however.

Osceola via Tripoli rd. is another good one for great summit/great views if
you feel the higher ridges are too strenous... 

Best views in the Whites are from South Twin, Guyot, Bond, West Bond, Bondcliffs
(all in the same general area).
You can reach South Twin and return as a day hike by coming in from the
north (over North Twin) *or* coming up Gale River Trail past Galehead hut.

Bonds are tough as a day hike (can do if monsters), but you can camp at
Guyot campsite which is right in the middle of all this or stay at
Galehead hut if you've got the $$.

       Craig

re          <<< Note 235.299 by CSCMA::M_PECKAR "life is a carnival" >>>


>Mousilauke is nice, but for out of town visitors, its not great: the summit 
>is "trashed" and you see an awful lot of clearcuts from the top. Beaver 
>Brook Trail is one of the nicest hikes, however.

that summit is not _that_ bad mon!  geez, ya'd think that someone built a
McDonalds up there w/ your descirption!  :-)  :-)  :-)  the only bummer about
Moose is that it is a popular destiniation for boy scout day hikes, etc.  if
you get lucky and avoid this type of group, you will not regret the climb
up/the view/etc......  as for clearcuts, you see 'em just about everywhere in
the whites now.  if anything, they serve as a reminder of reality... a reminder
of how _your_tax dollars are being used to manage nat'l forest land.

>Osceola via Tripoli rd. is another good one for great summit/great views if
>you feel the higher ridges are too strenous... 

you only get about 180 or so degree view from osceola.  also, easy hike
from tripoli 'cuz you do most of the elevation in your car.



re: South/North Twin

i sure wish that i could have taken in the view from those babies!  when
i hiked them last month, the visibility was about 50' at best with hard
rain and strong gusts....

    RE:a reminder of how you tax dollars are being used to manage the Nat
    Forest (or something like that)
    
    
    
    
                    ACCCCKKKK! PPPHHHTTT!!! GAG!!!
    

Well, not a McDonalds, but there are a lot of ruins from the Hotel that
used to sit up there. Just my opinion.

I'm looking for a nice, easy 2 night back packing trip for deb and i to do
this weekend.  deb can't do distance or heavy elevation, so pls. keep that
in mind.

thanks

OWL'S HEAD


Deb and I attempted Owl's Head this weekend, the remote 4ker, in the Pemi
Wilderness.  We didn't make it to the top.

Friday, we hiked in about 3 miles and made camp.  We were expecting some
showers, although the weather was clear on the drive up.  So, shortly after
dinner, the rain came... we went in the tent and played casino (card game)
for a couple hrs then crashed around 9pm.  Rained all night; wind, rain,
more wind, more rain.

Next morning, i wake up, around 6.30am and take a walk.  The skies looked
very active: sun, clouds, all moving quickly.  Typical of a front moving
through I thought, and figured it would clear.  We had b-fast, then hit the
trial inward.  Encountered more rain.  Some sun, some wicked awesome
rainbows, but mostly more rain!  I figured it would have cleared by now, but
nope...  that first river crossing over the lincoln brook was a doosy. 
I was carrying 50+ lbs, deb had about 18 or so, and i didn't want to play
the rock-to-rock game w/ that kinda weight, espec. since all the rocks
were wet.  so, we took off our boots, put the sandals on, and cranked 
across.  COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLD on the feet!!!!!!  2nd, and 3rd crossings were 
much easier: did not have to remove the boots.

Finally, we got to a camping site area that Marv mentioned in his trip.report.
It was raining like hell, about 48 or so degrees.  Deb started getting cold,
so did i.  knowing that deb has a much harder time resisting and recovering
from coldness, plus much of our stuff was at least somewhat wet, i elected
to head back out of the woods vs. attempting the climb up the owl's head
slide (which is, incidently, dangerous in wet weather: we were later told that
things on top of owl's head were pretty bad: sleet, hail, etc). 

so, out of the woods we went.  pouring rain; sunshine for 10 seconds, wind
blowing more rain on us, etc.  basically miserable weather, you know, that
cold clammy stuff!  as we neared route 112, many people asked us how it
was in there: we replied "rain forest!".  they looked at us in disbelief:
apparently everywhere else had fair weather.  we were caught in some strange
system betw. the franconia range and owl's head... it must have rained
at least 2" during the day, who knows how much at night...

oh well, next time..  i believe i made the prudent decision at the right
time vs. being sorry at 6pm sat night 8 miles into the woods.

deb did well.  it was her first backpacking trip.  i carried about 75% of
the weight/stuff and she carried the balance (clothes, sleeping bag).  we
did a total of 16 miles... 13 on sat alone.  mostly old railroad beds, but,
still a long walk, espec. w/ 50 lbs on my back in pouring rain.

    Bummer, JC.
    
       I agree that you made the right choice but I bet the trip out really
    seemed like a lonnnnnnggggg haul by the time you hit the parking lot!
    
       Cheers to Deb for hanging in there and I hope this little adventure
    didn't sour her on future trips.
    
       Next time it will be perfecto.
    
    
    Marv
    

re                    <<< Note 235.306 by POWDML::MACINTYRE >>>

>       Cheers to Deb for hanging in there and I hope this little adventure
>    didn't sour her on future trips.


actually, deb enjoyed the trip.  it was very adventurous, we just were not
completely prepared for the deluge of rain we got.  and, 8 miles south, hardly
any rain fell.. so, in that respect, the weathermon was right; we were just
in a bad area of "town" i guess.

deb's a good sport, and she found the trip to be a lot of fun.  i made the
comment that "oh geez, that was a lame example of back packing!" to which
she replied, "i thought it was fun, crossing the river, seeing the rainbows,
and just being outside".   she likes the stuff, but even more so, she likes
having 100% of my time :-)

next time...

    Gerry and I are planning to go on a backpacking trip this weekend,
    probably in the northern Pressies.  I hope to leave Friday afternoon
    and may take Monday off too.  Anyone interested?
    
    Yeah, I don't know when I'm going to pack either.
    
    Jamie

    I'll be going up with my wife, son and another couple and their kids. 
    Unfortunately that crowd is not up to any serious hiking but we will be
    walking (as opposed to 'hiking') into Zealand Notch for some leaf
    peep'n.
    
    Saturday should be a good one.  Have a great time.
    
    Marv
    

first weekend in oct:


The first w-end in Oct, I took to the white mountains with my friend Norm
from NJ.  He cruised up early friday, we got our stuff together, and cranked
to the whites.  we parked at the car park near the wilderness trails @ rte 112.
walked 8 miles into 13 falls campsite.  made camp, chowed, drank wine, had a
small fire.  nice place to camp.  next day, up early, had b-fast of oatmeal
and hot chocolate.  temp was around 32F or so... not too bad.  broke camp
and began the grueling ascent.  we were carrying approx 45 lbs each, maybe 50.
Up the frost trail to the galehead hut.  norm had a tough time starting up,
but he soon recovered.  he hung out at galehead, tanked up on H20, and got
psyched for the ascent up South Twin.  got to the top of south twin and checked
out the killer foliage colors!!  the entire pemi-wilderness is pretty much in
sight from this mountain - a view i had missed when i climbed it on my birthday
in inclement weather....  after a pause, we took the twinway towards Guyot.
Hoffed it up guyot - i had thought it was a 4ker but alas, i was wrong! at
least it wasn't a killer grind.  over ???, down into the col where the
guyot campsite is... we thought about staying, but, with bad weather approaching
and norm wanting to get home at a reasonable time on sunday, we pushed ahead.
we hit the w. bond spur, dropped the packs, and cranked up w. bond.  again, a
most killer view... nice!!!  back tracked, got the packs, and hit up bond.
again, nice view and a great pre-cursor to what was coming: bondcliff.  
bondcliff is a totally exposed rocky lump!   the climb down from bond to 
bondcliff is extremenly rough and difficult, espec. w/ heavy packs.  we made
our way slowly; the weather threatened to get worse.  by this time, we were
pretty damn spent... we moved slowly, rested freqently, and took in the
magnificant views.  finally, we were on bondcliff!!!   great views of the ridge
we walked - and, you could see where we started waaaaaaaay down there!  the
foliage colors were intense!  there was one point where the going down was
so steep that we hadda do it w/o packs.  i jumped down, norm passed the packs
to me, then he jumped down.  we rested, it was about 5pm or so... we decided
to make camp at the 1st location we got to... we found a place slightly
below where we were (~4100 ft above sea level).  made camp, made dinner,
drank a little bottle of tequela and enjoyed some oat snacks for dessert.
by 7:00pm or so, the weather was getting bad- wind, and rain was starting to
fall.  being completely spent, we went into the tent and crashed at 7:30pm!
all night the wind blew, the rain fell, the trees wavered.  next morning, we
get up a day break; drizzle still falling off and on.  it was much colder.
during the night, it had warmed up so much i hadda zip my sleeping bag down
quite a bit.  by day break, the temp had plummeted 20 or so degrees.  as
i was boiling up some h20, the rain turned to SNOW!  i was totally psyched!!!
after freezing out hands off putting things away, we finally started down the
trail.  snow falling :-).  the trail was mostly over-grown on the upper half
(this is the bondcliff trail) - i blazed the trail and got very wet.  then,
we got to where the maintenance person left off and it was smooth sailing 
from there.  the sun was trying to get out....  lots and lots of places to
camp along the bondcliff trial, fyi.  finally, we got out of the woods after
the 5 or 6 miles on the wilderness trail.  tired, spent, and the mind cleansed.
great hike;  wicked long day on saturday!!  i think all tolled, 25 miles and
i bagged 3 new 4kers (south twin was the second time, otherwise it would have
been 4).

---------------

second weekend in oct:


deb and i split north to camp at russell pond c.g. in the nat'l forest.
no problem getting a site on friday night.  weather was nice, clear, and
not that cold (48f or so).  saturday we just lazed around.  sat night was
when the fun began.  the good old montreal express was on its way and it
blew and blew _all_ night long.  what was beautiful foliage is now totally
gone up north... lots of trees stripped bare of their colors.  at 4:30am,
a huge gust cranked through our site and uprooted out tent - sort of a rude
awakening!!  everthing in the tent was thrown around... it was quite intense.
i had to go out and re-stake the tent... the temp had fallen considerable into
the low 30s and snow / sleet was falling intermittenly.  i got up sunday am
to climb osceola, actually, it was east peak that i was after as i neglected
it before and needed it for my 4ker list.  all the mountains were frosted
from last night's rain/snow/weather.  it was verybeautiful!  i cranked up
osceola from tripoli rd in 1:30, beating the book's time considerably.
the view was intense and the wind was whippin'.  not a lot of foliage
colors, but lots of snow on the higher peaks (3800+)... winter is here, at
least in the mountains.  i then cranked over to the east peak which is
completely uneventful (ie: in the woods).  cranked back over to osceola
and checked the view one more time before heading down.  on the way down, i
must have passed at least 70 people!!!!!!!!!!!!!   gerg would have been
appalled!!!!  many,many people completely unprepared for winter weather on 
top: wearing little sneakers.  one guy had slacks, polo shirt, and some
slick lookin' work-type shoes on... i cracked up.  the total hiking time 
was about 4:30 ... i think the book says 6:40 for the same hike...  i was
alone carrying just a day pack... easy to crank w/ no weight...  so, i nailed
one more 4ker..   32 down, 16 to go...

	Fabulous Reviews JC!

	Yesterday I jogged up the Pumpelli trail on Monadnock, was 
	surpised when I could see Lafayette and Washington snowcapped
	heavily....even to the naked eye, that must be over 100 miles
	from Monadnock! 

	Through binoculars I could see most 4k+ peaks in the whites....
	Moosilaukee was also snowcapped.

    
    was up in Maine this weekend and got snowed on for the first time this
    year...  cold and blustery up there saturday evening...  saturday duing
    the day was amazing though...  we went canoeing...  i went swimming
    (uhhh, no...  not on purpose...  :^)...
    
    saw Billetier and Julie...  they are doing really well and looking
    fantastic....  they say hello to the folks back here...  their big news
    these days is that they are expecting...  :^)  :^)  :^)  Jules looks 
    really cute with a little belly too...  
    
    winter is here again yes...  so too, is hunting season...  coming back
    home yesterday i had a little excitement when i went to gas up for the
    trip home...  2 guys came into the gas station with thier buddy who had
    shot himself...  they came to the gas station cuz it was the only
    public phone for miles... they had called the EMT's and were waiting or
    an ambulance...  poor guy wasn't looking too good...  face was like ash
    and he was losing blood fairly steadily...  looked to me like he was
    gong into shock...  i offered to let them wrap him in my sleeping bag
    and pull out insulated pads to lay him down, elevate his legs (he was
    looking pretty shocky to me and they just had him propped up inthe
    front seat of thier 4WD) and all that, but then the first EMT showed up
    and took over...  llittle excitement for the trip home!
    
    					da ve    

re: hunting season

I just bought one of those day-glo orange-type hunting hats!  i do a _ton_ of
walking in the woods and figured i should have something like that!!!



yes, winter is here, at least in the mountains.  what i experienced on top
of osceloa is what one would expect around here in January!!!!  ah, gotta
love winter... even if it is cold and brutal!  

    Wow JC,
    
      Excellent review.  Man-O-man that Saturday trip was quite the hump. 
    You guys musta been beat.  That is a long trip over some very rugged
    terrain.  Way to go.
    
      On Oct 2 my family and another family went and stayed in a campground
    in Franconia and hiked into Zealand Notch.  Nice day with some nice
    colors.  At about 7:00pm that night it began raining and kept raining
    until 8:30 the next morning.  Nothing super heavy but steady.  Not so
    steady that my buddy Ken and I couldn't keep our fire going.  :-)
    Nothing like sitting around a campfire in the rain squirting red wine
    into your mouth from a botta bag.
    
      JC, that trip was balzy!
    
    
    Marv
    

re                    <<< Note 235.315 by POWDML::MACINTYRE >>>

>      Excellent review.  Man-O-man that Saturday trip was quite the hump. 
>    You guys musta been beat.  That is a long trip over some very rugged
>    terrain.  Way to go.
 
thanks!  yeah, saturday was a bigtime grind.  we started at 8:15am or so
and hiked until about 5:30pm ...  we rested, but never more then 30 minutes,
and maybe just once at that length!  long, long day... if i were to do it
again, i'd make camp at guyot, go and bag w. bond, then the next day, hike
outta there.  you can really haul on the wilderness trail... that's the easy
part.... as it turned out, the right decision was made... coming down bond
along bondcliff would  have been down-right dangerous on sunday in the snow/rain
/ice... that is a rough and rocky trail!
   
i haven't gone to sleep at 7:30pm since i was a kid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Soundz like an incredible trip, JC!  I gotta get you to take me up there
for a couple 4k'ers one of these weekends! 8-)  And speaking of cold rain
and snow, I posted this in the hiking and skiing notesfiles, and I figgerd
on soliciting some advice from the local experts too ;-)

- jeff_with_only_two_4k'ers_under_his_bel-...er..._boots_8-)

...

I was up in VT this past weekend and saw the 'perfect' skiing/hiking
pants...  ...but not in my size.  I couldn't find the same pants anywhere
else for the same or lower price ($150 at The Cupola at Mount Snow VT).
The brand is Solstice (Portland OR), model is Avalanche.  Features:
    - Heavy weight nylon (for standing up to new-england 'packed 
      powder' ;-),
    - Full side zippers (with velcro covers!), 
    - Elastic and snap cuffs, 
    - GoreTex,
    - Inner/outer double ankle cuffs, 
    - Lots O pockets (w/ zippers & velcro covers!), 
    - Strap-adjustable waist (good for use w/ polar fleece, etc.),
    - Not insulated (good for hiking; but need insulation for skiing).

Full side zippers are a must -- gotta be able to get 'em over muddy hiking
boots.  Gore-tex isn't a must, but I don't wanna get wet in the rain, and
I'd like to not drown in my own sweat either... my wrestling days are 
over ;-)  Pockets are useful, and velcro zipper covers seem like a rilly
good idea, but I can do without 'em if it'll save me a few $.  Double ankle
cuffs seem like a very useful feature for keeping rain and snow outta my
boots.
    
I plan to use these as an 'all purpose' pant for hiking as well as skiing
(skiing is my primary use tho), with poly/wool long-undies for 'warmer'
skiing/hiking, and with polar-fleece pants for colder skiing/hiking.  I'm
also considering getting two pairs of pants, lighter weight rain pants for
hiking, and non-gore-tex (cheaper) pants for skiing.  But it's looking like
I'd pay the same amount for two pairs of 'specialized' pants vs. one
'all-around' pair.  And I'm not so sure that I can find two pairs of
specialized pants with all the features I want in each (for the money).

Can anyone please direct me to a store in the Boston area that sells these,
or a product with similar features for the same or less $$$?  Any comments
on Solstice products (quality, durability, etc.) are also welcome!  8-)

- jeff

Call them directly. 503-555-1212 should getcha their number. They can tell 
you who around here sells 'em...

Wilderness House (Comm. Ave, right opposite EMS) has a about the best
selection around of Gore-Tex shells, jackets, pants, Polarplus tops 'n'
bottoms, etc.  They have many more brands than EMS - they have the full
North Face lineup, Moonstone, etc.

I have a great pair of Gore-tex full-side-zip non-insulated pants, with 
the full velcro flap, that I got there.  I think they are Moonstone brand,
they were about $150.  Only one small pocket in the back, though, and I 
don't think they would fit over downhill ski boots.  

You can check 'em out tomorrow when you come up to my place.

Josh

$150 for pants seems a bit much, IMO.  I bought some pants (don't know the
mfgr) for about $45 or so in Conway NH (home of every outlet in the world
it seems!).  They're not gortex, but they do keep the rain out.  Gortex isn't
the only thing in the world that keeps the rain out!  If you buy gortex, you're
gonna pay some heavy royalties to Mr Gortex...

as for hiking, i would probably never use 'em unless i'm winter hiking.  no
need, really... at least in my experiences!  i mostly climb in shorts, when
it gets cold, levis 501s work just fine.  if i'm doing washington in Nov, i'd
bring 'em along just in case...  for hiking, i find, you want your legs as
"free" as possible, espec. on the way up.  you bog 'em down with lots of
layers and you'll bog your hiking time down!  plus, on the way up, you're
gonna sweat, even if it is 20F outside...  

    I was so impressed with Josh's powder pants, I'm having Patty make me 
    a pair! the first pair is an experiment...more versions to come.
    
    rfb

JC, you HIKE IN COTTON????   GAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Get thee to REI, they have Nato Surplus wool trousers for $20.  I fall-weather
hike/winter ski in them and they are great.  Warm, never ever get clammy,
and have a nice loose fit (completely unlike jeans).  And, come in ultra-cool
Olive-Drab!

People have different internal "thermostats" and will feel the cold
differently.  I crank out plenty of BTU's when XC'ing but when I stop for
lunch, I gotta put on all my layers.  

Josh

    I second the surplus wool pants idea..I have alot of friends that ski
    in them. 
    
    rfb

I third that. New: $20.00, Thrift: $1.25-$1.75 On the trail: $1,000,000.00

    
     i recently picked up a pair of solstice pants from hilton's 
    (during the dead run). i probally could've gotten a better
    deal elsewhere, i really should check out comm. ave. one of
    these days, but i'm happy with my purchase. they seem to resemble
    the pants you described, i.e. full lenght zippers on the sides, ect.
    but instead of paying 145. or so for the gortex i opted for the
    cheaper microshed material for 95. they claim to be 3x the 
    government's standard for waterproofness, and the salesdood said
    "same as gortex" when i asked for a comparison. 
    
                                                         ^dave

    Re: Wool pants
    
    	Gotta have 'em! I don't use them so much in the fall type weather,
    but in the winter they're great! The thing about the military surplus,
    which I got at NEBP (at least a problem for me) is that they don't get
    very small. I don't carry a lot of my own insulation so the waist needs
    to be cinched. Anyway, gotta have 'em in the winter!!!
    
    	As for hiking in jeans, they are too tight on my legs and reduce my
    ability to move comfortably. 

wool : very very good
syntho materials : ok
cotton jeans : very very bad
      Craig

re: wool pants

i looked at ems and rei last year for wool pants, and all they had were sort
of dress-style pants; i want a pair for hiking that's roomy and has lots of
pockets; where would be a good place to go to find them?  someone mentioned
army surplus stores - where is there one west of boston?

- rich

    New England Backpacker, Mountain st. Worcester, Ma.! 
    
    But I think we've been talking about army surplus at regular stores. 
    Actually I think my recent pair are russian army surplus, designed
    before velcro.
    
    

re: cotton

I've hiked hundreds of miles in the whites, mostly in colder weather, and i
have yet to get frost-bite, hypothermia, or any other ailment related to the
cold.  the key is to know your body and know how you personally handle and
react to cold weather.  it is the people who are not prepared that have to
be yanked off the mountain...

re: pants

Thanks for all the help and suggestions!  I think I'll either go with the
Solstice $150 goretex or the $100 microshed pants, unless I can find what I
need for less $$$ at Wilderness House.  So far, I've scrounged up the
following info...


Solstice, Inc. 503-227-1039, Portland, OR.  spoke with Linda
    - "Avalanche" model renamed to "North Ridge"
    - Recommend Hilton's Tent City.  Only source in Boston.
    
Hilton's Tent City  617-227-9242; 272 Friend St. next to Garden. 
    - Open 'til 9pm every day.
    - North Ridge pant $150 on sale, have all sizes.
    - 'Backcountry' pant, lighter weight, no Goretex, $100-150
    - 'Timberline' microshed w/bib $150, $100 w/o bib.

Wilderness House 617-277-5858  1048 Comm Ave, Brookline, next to EMS
    - 10a-9p M-F, -6:30p Sat, -5p Sun.
    - too big a selection to describe over phone; must stop by to see
      everything.
    
EMS 508-872-7915 Framingham
    - Nothing in stock now, will have goretex bibs for $200 in 3 wks.
    
REI 617-944-5103 Reading, MA
    - North Face 'Smear?' pant $250
    - Lowe (sp?) bib w/velcro zippers, $100-250
    
New England Backpacker  508-853-9407 Mountain St. Worcester, MA
    - spoke with Wayne.
    - Wayne doesn't like Solstice: "you get whatcha pay for."  Recommends
      against Solstice, doesn't hold up -- pockets tear out, leaks, etc.
    - North Face 'Mountain Light' pants $230 goretex, reinforced knee and
      seat, full side zip.  Protective inner leg patches, good for use
      w/crampons.

	I absolutely cannot believe those prices!!!!!

	heh heh heh

	F'in outlandish!

	Last August I purchased a cozy pair of Gore-tex ski 
	pants for $75 at a discount ski shop....they keep me mega 
	warm and dry....when I need them!

	Long-Johns make the difference for me mon, I spent the cake
	on a breathable, yet warm, pair of skiv's and a thin shell
	to put over them and I find I very rarely need the Gore-tex
	ski pants nowadays.

    I have some German Army winter wool pants that have a shit load of
    pockets, cinch at the ankles, have an adjustable waist and are the
    warmest things I've ever seen or heard of.  I think I paid 15 american
    dollars at the Army-Navy Surplus store on E. Pearl St in Nashua.  
    
    Absolutely the best things available.
    
    jc, the warmth factor is no the real issue with jeans, its what happens
    when jeans/cotton gets wet.  Cotton dries from the outside in and as
    such saps your body heat and can lead to hypotherma.  Wool, and some
    synthetics, dry from the inside out and retain most (with wool) or some
    (synthetics) of their insulation value.
    
    Wet cotton looses all of its insulation value just as down does.
    
    If you are dry and can count on remaining so (which is a stretch in the
    Whites) then jeans are fine.  Otherwise, think wool or think synthetic.
    
    Marv
     

i ski in a pair of pants that i bought when i was in junior high at an
end of the season clearance for $20; they're not superb, but they keep me dry
and warm, which is what matters

never hiked in jeans before, but i did ski in them once, the first time i went
skiing; i'll never do that again (was cold and wet and generally miserable)

i have used a pair of cotton/poly blend pants before for hiking; they work
pretty well, but i think wool would be better

- rich

On friday I climbed Little Haystack, Lincoln, and Lafayette on the Franconia
Range.  It was the most clear day I've seen in many many many years.  We went
up the falling H20 trail;  a bit icey on the bottom part where it runs along
the river, but, once you get past that, the trail was good.  not much snow up
there, maybe 4" at best.  from the top of all of the mountains, the views to the
west were phenominal.  easy to spot Mansfield and Camel's hump.  You could also
see Sugarbushes' ski trails and going south even more, you could see Killington
as well.  There were some mountains further west of sugarbush that we suspect
were in NY, but, without a map, i can't be certain.  Easily 70 miles visibility,
perhaps more.   To the east, you get a great view of the Pemi wilderness area.
I could see where i hiked this past summer and fall (garfield, twins, bonds,
and an abortive attempt at owl's head).  and, dominating the view to the east
was Mt Wash - completely snow capped.  coming down the old bridle path was a
bit dicey near the top with ice everywhere.  crampons helped quite a bit.  the
lower part wasn't icey so we ditched the crampons...  all in all, a good hike,
and some of the clearest viewing i've seen in recent memory.  it is amazing
how clean the air gets in the winter vs. the summer.  that gross brown band
that has become quite bad in the last 10 yrs is very very prominent during the
summer;  on friday, to the north it was visible, but the east/west/south
views displayed no brown band...  pollution;  pretty sad.  great hike though.

33 down, 15 to go.

    What's a good style of boot to wear for this. Sorels?????
    
    
    Thanks
    Chris

re                     <<< Note 235.336 by KNGBUD::KUPIEC >>>
                                  -< boots?? >-

>    What's a good style of boot to wear for this. Sorels?????
 
Sorels are overkill, imo, for the hike I did.  temps in the notch that morning
were about 15F and on top, probably 5-10F (as the day goes on, temp goes up).
if you're constantly moving, you'll keep warm in regular hiking boots.  i
have merrill hiking boots - the air cushion version.  they work fine - i use
a polypro sock first then wool socks on top.  

the snow on the trail never got more the 4"

i had gators just in case the snow was deeper, but, they stayed in the pack
for this trip.

>i had gators just in case the snow was deeper, but, they stayed in the pack

In other words, you mean your 'gators were sleeping, in noon-day sun... ;-)

    there's a gator for sale in the Colo_class notes file, only one
    though, it's about foot long and eats mice and goldfish....
    
                    %^)
    rfb

    re .336
    
      If'n the hike you take requires the use of crampons, Sorel's are not
    the best bet.  Crampons work best on ridged soled shoes, ie. non-PAC
    style boots.
    
      If'n you're just referring to keeping your feet warm then jc told you
    straight.  I picked up a pair of Merrel(l) boots with Thinsolite(tm)
    the other day at the new LL Bean outlet in Nashua.  They are not as
    warm as Sorel's or any of the other similar boots but with the two sock
    config the jc mentions and some activity they are fine.
    
      Another tip is to buy replacement insole inserts.  I picked up a set
    of super-duper, three-layered, -1 Billion degree jobbies and they
    improved the performance of my boots quite a bit.
    
      I had a really dispiriting and scary experience a couple of years ago
    where my feet nearly froze solid.  Fog, Jamie, Rich, remember the
    night in the shelter off the Beaver Brook Trail?  We wrote about the
    experience but for those who don't remember or weren't around, we spent
    the night during a raging wind and snow storm with temps dropping to
    -20.  I under-estimated the amount of snow on the ground, how far from
    the road the shelter was, how much alochol I consumed ...  The worse
    part was that I had insulated PAC boots in the car but chose to leave
    them and wear the 3-season boots I had on.
    
    Really stupid, especially drinking too much but lessons were learned!
    
    Never again.
    
    Marv
    
      

    Thanks for the info so far! Another question..... If I wanted to do
    some winter day hikes in the Whites, probably not much above treeline,
    what sort of boots, crampons, etc would be best recommended? 
    
    Right now I have light weight Merrels ( Eagles or something like that ), 
    my feet travel warm, a polypro innner sock with a wool out keep my feet 
    very warm.
    
    
    Thanks for the info  
    Chris

re                     <<< Note 235.340 by POWDML::MACINTYRE >>>

>    the other day at the new LL Bean outlet in Nashua.  They are not as
			  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Directions, please!

thx, Josh

    My dad has become a Mason Shoesalesman (ala Al Bundy!) I ordered a pair
    of hiking boots, called Field and Stream, that have a double thinsolite 
    layer inside, one for keeping dry and the other for wicking away sweat. 
    These are all leather, no "woven fiber over the toe" like hi-tech boots
    have. I just got them, so don't know how "good they are". But they are
    of a quality above Hi-tech where I WON'T be standing in beaverponds
    with them! 
    
    Anyone ever heard of these??
    
    
    (ever notice that when you spend two summers standing in beaverponds
    with the same pair of boots...THEY START TO SMELL LIKE A BEAVERPOND!!!!)
    
    rfb

>    Thanks for the info so far! Another question..... If I wanted to do
>    some winter day hikes in the Whites, probably not much above treeline,
>    what sort of boots, crampons, etc would be best recommended? 

Instep crampons are fine and cheap, but that's me. $30 Timberlines are fine 
and cheap, but that's me also. Its in the Crag logs, though: I'm a "goofer".

Equipment should be comfortable and fit right, not necessarily be expensive. 
I suggest you start off with the cheaper equipment and work up as you get 
more experienced/tackle tougher terrain. I've seen too many people think 
that buying the best equipment would instantly prepare them for winter hiking.

For most day hikes in the whites you really don't need anything more than a
decent pair of heavy work or hiking boots with good, expensive socks. And
like I say, pack a set of instep crampons, but strap them on only when you
feel you need them: there is no requirement for these on all trails out there.

Your equipment is only of importance in relation to your physical and
mental preparations: learn about winter hiking, get psyched, and 
concentrate on having a good time, not having the best equipment!

    
    well, my 2 pence on boots, and most other equipment issues, i
    sincredibly simple...  take a hike!!  you'll learn what you need... 
    :^)  
    
    may sound too easy, but common sense should always be your guide
    (common sense however is not always as common as one might like to
    think)...  as you get out you will find out the kinds of features that
    you like and what works for you...
    
    for instance, for years, i hiked with a sterno stove...  if i wasn't
    cooking o the campfire, it was with a simple, cheap, lightweight sterno
    stove...  the more i hiked and got experience with cooking...  and
    cleaning...  and packing...  and leaky canisters...  adn soot covered
    pans...  the more i learned what features were "important" to me and i
    upgraded over time to equipment that better suited my needs....
    
    what this means for boots, is THE BEST BOOT YOU CAN BUY meets the
    following criteria...
    	1.  they fit
    	2.  comfortable to walk in (read-they fit)
    	3.  comfortable to stand in (read-they fit)
        4.  keep feet relatively warm and dry
    
    everything else is subjective and depends on your feet more than
    anything else...  the best hiking boots i ever wore/owned were a pair
    of Dunham work boots that i bought YEARS ago...  they fit...  when they
    leaked, i waterproofed 'em again...  when my feet got cold,i put on
    warm dry socks...  crampons??  strap-ons...  nope, not the most
    glamorous, effective or high tech, but they never stopped me from
    getting where i was going (usually crampons weren't NEEDED so much as
    USEFUL anyways)... 
    
    make sure the boot flexes in the same places your foot flexes...  make
    sure that you are going to be able to walk downhill without crunching
    all your toes (some store have a ramp for this purpose)...  make sure
    you know the proper weaterproofing procedures (they can be different
    for different types of leathers etc)...  but most of all make sure it
    flexes...  
    
    					da ve

    he he...  notes collision 10 minutes apart!  :^)  i got interrupted
    while writing my note...   
    
    sa no to equipment weenies!!  go for a hike and have some fun!
    
    				da ve

>    where my feet nearly froze solid.  Fog, Jamie, Rich, remember the
>    night in the shelter off the Beaver Brook Trail?  We wrote about the

.147, .149, and .155 reported on that trip, Marv... 

>Note 235.154   GIAMEM::SCHOTT: Z    earlier!  As an aside, Craig the
regular caretaker took a couple of Z    days off, and we were fortunate to
enjoy the company of a celebrity Z    caretaker, none other than the famous
outdoor author Guy Waterman Z    ("Backwood Ethics", "Forest and Crag, A
History of Mountain Exploration Z    in the Northeast")  A very interesting
gentleman to talk with! 
    
Seeing this in the above string of notes reminded me that Guy Waterman is
this year's winter caretaker at Grey Knob.  I think he is switching off
with a guy named Paul, one week on, one week off, etc... 

    i have aproblem with drinking too much when recreating too,
    Marv...happens to the best (and worst!) of us! 
    
    
    rfb

Also, before you winter hike, I'd suggest hiking in some of the other less
harsh seasons to get to "know" the types of terrain and weather to expect.
Winter definitely brings on the most harsh weather in the Whites and is not
for the faint of heart.

>    i have aproblem with drinking too much when recreating too,

I have this problem when procreating, too.


:-)

    Thanks for all the input. It sounds like I can get by with just a
    purchase of some instep crampons. I used to cross-country ski ( mostly
    bushwhacking ) when I was out in the berkshires, now I'm looking for
    something my wife and I can do. I'm not sure if she's up to doing any
    cross-country ( tough time on skis ), but she enjoys being outdoors as
    much as me, so I thought some winter hiking would get us both out.
    
    Thanks again
    Chris

    	I don't know, I find XC skiing to be pretty darn easy. But, I
    had been on alpines for about 8 years before I took up XC at.....
    ?14?. Anyway, I fell a lot more than I expected to for the first few
    years, especially the first few hundered feet, but after a few good
    glide walking (post holing) through snow seems like such a waste of
    energy and time I kept at skiing. Nowadays, (oh wow, more years of xc
    skiing than I had of living when I started) after 16 years of occasional
    XC skiing I go a long way up before I put my climbing skins on and even
    further before I have to get off the ski. Honestly though, I haven't
    gone down any radical trails on XC skis in the back woods. Maybe what
    helped me stay with it was the entertainment I got out of going down
    the slightest slope on xc skis. I've got a great picture of a friend of
    mine upside down, backwards and sliding down hill on XC skis (well his
    skis are in the air). To me hiking in the winter means using skis as
    long as possible, but my boots are heavy, by Merell, much like a hiking
    boots.
    
    Geoff getting_carried_away_because_I_want_to_ski
     

    The LL Bean outlet is on the Daniel Webster Highway near the Pheasant
    Lane Mall.  Going south it is on the left side in the same plaza where
    the Barnes&Noble is located.  
    
    They are either in or next too the (old)Snyder Leather store.
    
    They carry seasonal items, ie. in winter they have some summer stuff
    and in the summer they will have some winter stuff.  However, that is
    not a hard and fast rule.  They have all kinds of stuff.
    
    Lots of sleeping bags, boots, some other camping stuff and lots of
    clothes.
    
    Marv
    
    

yeah, but what about winters like the last 10 out of 11???

>      I had a really dispiriting and scary experience a couple of years ago
>    where my feet nearly froze solid.  Fog, Jamie, Rich, remember the
>    night in the shelter off the Beaver Brook Trail?

that experience convinced me that i need 3 things for winter hiking:

winter boots
a full length thermarest
crampons that properly fit my boot

i have yet to get any of these items, which is probably one reason why i
haven't done any winter overnight hiking since then

- rich

p.s. it also re-inforced my belief that one should not carry beer along when
it's minus 25 degrees

XCing in the Whites is possible - lots and lots of trails follow old RR beds
for miles into the backcountry through the various notches and valleys...

    IMHO, instep crampons are useless for anything but walking on flat
    terrain.  They slip off to the sides of your boots at the slightest
    provocation.  I'm not even sure they're better than nothing.
    
    re .354  You could wrap your beers in your new Thermarest.  :-)  As
    long as I'm dispensing opinions, Ridge Rests have it all over
    Thermarests for weight and price.  T-rests are more comfortable, but
    so is staying home in front of the woodstove.
    
    Jamie

>    IMHO, instep crampons are useless for anything but walking on flat
>    terrain.  They slip off to the sides of your boots at the slightest
>    provocation.  I'm not even sure they're better than nothing.

are "instep" the smaller ones with just a few points in the middle of the boot? 
that's what i had on the winter trip being discussed a few notes back, and i
definitely agree that they sucked
    
>As
>    long as I'm dispensing opinions, Ridge Rests have it all over
>    Thermarests for weight and price.

what's a ridge rest like?  lighter than a thermarest?  i don't see how a
sleeping pad could me much lighter than a thermarest, but i can definitely see
how it wouldn't be too hard for something to be cheaper

- rich

Crampons are indeed a PITA, regardless of type. Sure full crampons stay on
better, but not that much better when the going gets real rough. They also
weigh more, cost more, damage trails more, and poke you the eye more. I
hate 'em, but they are a necessary evil, none the less. They're kinda like
the klister of nordic yore: ya just can't get up without it. Maybe someone 
will invent something analogous to the waxless ski in a hiking boot someday.

Hmmm, dizzying, the possibilities.    :-)

Fog_who_blew_outta_a_pair_of_full_crampons_on_the_west_butress_on_Denali_at_
16,500_feet_and_slid_200_feet_down._Fortunately_a_nice_big_boulder_stopped_
him_from_sliding_an_additional_1800_feet_straight_down_into_a_really_big_and_
ugly_icefall_and_certain_death.

    re .358
    
    Yep, those are instep crampons.
    
    Any camping store will have Ridgerests for sale, so I won't attempt to
    describe it.  I'd say it's a 1/4 the weight of a Thermarest.  I take
    two for winter camping, though they now offer a double thickness model. 
    Actually, if you're sleeping on snow, padding isn't even an issue.
    
    Jamie

    Cross-crountry would definatly be the way to go but my wife has
    developed arthritis so at this time we don't know if she's up to any
    skiing xcrountry or downhill....BUMMER.
    
    Chris
    

Well, as far as in-steps go, i beg to differ with Jamie's opinion.  Going up,
they are somewhat useless, but, going down, they can make a BIG difference.
Yeah, they slide around, but, once you get'em on good, they stay and i have
zero problems going down icey trails.  for $19 or whatever, they are far
better then nothing...

    hey cris kupiec, is yer wife seeking treatment for her arthritis from
    Drs. or from vitimens? My wife is a wealth of knowledge when it comes
    to aliments like that and using vits and minerals to treat. 
    DISCLAIMER!!!! SHE"S NOT A PRACTICINOR OF HOLISTIC MEDICINE!
    
    but if ya want some info, I'll be glad to ask her.
    rfb

    RFB,
    
    	Yeah, I think she'll try just about anything. Right now all she has
    is ibbrofin???? ( pain killer antiinflamatory ). It helps but not
    enough. I'd appreciate any info that could be provided, she's a
    vegetarian if that matters.
    
    Thanks in advace for any info
    Chris

chris,

your wife should significantly increase her intake of Ginger.  From all 
reports that I've heard it relieves 99% of the pain.  It should be used as 
a maintanence drug, not a quick fix.  it will probably take about 10 days 
for her to notice a difference but after that as long as she takes it daily 
she should have much less of a problem.

Geoff

re:             <<< Note 235.357 by STUDIO::IDE "Time is generous." >>>

>    long as I'm dispensing opinions, Ridge Rests have it all over
>    Thermarests for weight and price.

I'm glad I have approval from such an esteemed hiker/camper as yourself!  I
bought one of these while at Hilton's Tent City.  They were "irregular",
altough I couldn't find anything wrong.  I got the thickest one (1.5" I think)
and the 72" length, and it was $18 I think (it was the purple-and-green model). 
I've never used a Therma-Rest, but the Ridge Rest was very comfortable and
light!  I like the concept - very efficient as far as thickness is concerned!

adam

    
    RE .353
    
    Hey Marv -
    	 Could you post more specific directios to the LL Bean outlet in
    relation to the Pheasant Lane Mall? Thanks 
    
    
    							-jeff

    Otay,
    
      From the north: Leave Rt 3 (Everett Turnpike) at exit 1 (Spit Brook
    Rd).  Turn left at end of ramp and follow to Daniel Webster H/W.  Turn
    right at DW-Iway.  Get in left lane and turn in either just before or
    just after the Barnes and Noble bookstore.  It is your choice.  If'n
    you miss either of those, you can still turn in at the Home Depot
    entrance and drive through the parking lots back to the B&N area.
    
      From the south: Leave Rt 3 before the NH line, taking the exit (don't
    know the number) labeled So. Nashua.  This leads to DW-Iway.  Turn left
    onto DW and follow past the PLM, past Home Depot.  Look for (and SEE)
    the Barnes and Noble store on right.  Turn in just before or just
    after.
    
      The Bean outlet is on the left side of that 'mall'.  I think there is
    a TOYS R US directly opposite the Bean store.
    
    Have fun but don't blame me if you spend too much $$$.
    
    Marv
    

    
    Thanks Marv - I'll be off to check it out sometime this week.
    
    
    							-jeff

>    Have fun but don't blame me if you spend too much $$$.
    
Or if you go insane from the traffic ....

If you see Barnes and Noble, turn in there.... LL Bean is in that plaza.

dormant notes comes alive!



i'm off to the whites for a few days to take inventory of what i did,
where i went, what changed during my 28th year on this planet.  i'll
also ponder my 29th year, last of my 20s :-(.  i'm going back packing
all by my lonesome... plenty of time to let the mind wander or focus
on whatever it is i want to think about.  no distractions... nothing but
nature to pollute my thoughts.  friday is my bday... last year i went
out hiking... entered the woods at 27, exited at 28.  same this year.
sort of my way of cleansing and pondering the next year..  i hope to nail
6 more 4kers, which will put me down to about 6-7 left to go.  wildcats, 
carters, and moriah are on the menu tomorrow and friday in that order 
(i'll be a northbounder) should be a nice, sweaty, tough 19mile walk. 

have fun..
jc

Nice way to go, JC.  enjoy your 29th year, cause you can't trust yourself
anymore when you hit 30 :-)

Josh

    will you come out of the woods next year when you go in 29 and (should)
    come out 30???
    
    %^)
    
    rfb_soon to be 40

    BTW, JC
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you old dog!
    
    rfb

Yeah, happy_coupla_days_in_advance_Burthdee,_JC!!!

:-)

Enjoy your trip!

- jeff

    
    JC mon, a very cool way to spend the b'day!
    
    Although, it is raining cats n dogs out there this morning....
              
    
    
    
    Deane_looking_forward_to_hiking_Guyot_and_Twin_next_weekend

    
    Anyone have an experience climbing up to Mt Guyot from the Kanc.???
    (going in over Bondcliff)?  and then on to Garfield?? 

excellent hike!  it rained all day thurs until about 5 pm.  trails were
very wet in the trees, etc.  i got to pinkham around 11am.  i hadda call
my wall street stock mon real quick, and after that, i hit the trail...
43# pack on the back, total weight including me was about 235# for the
old legs...  

the wildcat trail is very rough and rocky, espec. with a full pack.  the
climb to the "E" peak seemed to take ages and ages.  just when i thought i
was there, i had another 1k feet to climb up!!  finally, i go to the gondola
station, at the "E" peak... it was shut due to the weather... visibility was
about 50'!  wind was whippin' pretty good flinging water everywhere.  i was
soaked, but warm, and lovin' nature!!  i then continued on to the rest of
the wildcat peaks, and finally down to carter notch.  very steep!!! and,
with all the water, the rocks we slippery... i took this part slow slow slow
so i wouldn't wreck myself.  it is about a 1400 vertical descent! i got 
to the carter hut and took a 15 min
break or so.  chowed some of my food, tanked up on h20, and wrapped with
a dude there.  everyone thought i was a northbounder on the AT!  i also
had some fudge brownies and took an orange for $1...  then, back to the outside.
by this time, it was 4pm or so, running a bit late, as i wanted to go over
carter dome & camp at zeta pass.  the schlep from carter notch to the 'dome
was steep and rocky... 1600' i had to ascend to the top of the 'dome.  again,
no views... the wind was whippin' pretty good...  no need to stay on top
since there was nothing to see, so i pressed on.  there was a forest
protection area (no camping) in zeta pass, but the guy at the hut told me
of some cool camping spots just north of it.  i found the first one out
of the restricted area and put up the tent.  by now, the rain had stopped,
but plenty was blowing off the trees.  made dinner, cleaned up, and hung
my food and shirt that i cooked with about 15' in a tree (keep it away from
da bears!).  i read for about 3 hrs and crashed... hahd... alone... in the
woods... thinking about my food and if i hung the f*g thing high enough!?!?!
and, to make matters kinda more exciting, i injested some quaker oats to
polish off the night while i enjoyed the company of the latest reader's
digest.

friday am, my bday! 29!  shit!
got up at 630am or so, and started dealing.  i could see the sun
breaking thru... but, it looked, for a while anyways, as if the clouds/rain
were coming back...  i had some breakfast, and broke camp.  i hit the trail
715ish or so... no problem with the food. no bears :-(... i was kinda hopin'
to see one!  up to south carter... still no view, in the clouds.  on to
middle carter.  same view.  finally, along the ridge, the clouds broke.
at first, it was undercast!!! the valleys had tons -o- clouds and only
the high mtns were visible.  washington came out of the clouds... as did
the whole prez. range.  to the west.  things went in and out of the clouds
for a bit as i dipped into treeline.  i rested at the imp shelter.  tanked up
on h20, chowed some food, and headed off to moriah.  another fairly long and
steady up hill...  lots of exposed ridges on the way to enjoy.  the clouds
were finally about 6000+ feet and everything was out, except some of the
prez'y range that went in and out.  finally, moriah top.  i took off my
soaking (with sweat) shirt, my shoes, etcx and kicked back.  couple of
others were up there taking in the view.  very clear for a summer day!!! that's
the plus when it rains then clears- the air gets cleansed.  after 45 mins
or so on moriah, it was time for the 3000' over 4.5 miles descent into gorham.
this was a loooooooooooooooooong walk for tired legs.  by this point, i had
gone 16 miles or so, and had the 4.5 to go.  many rests... i even took a 
quick nap on some rocks until the f*g ants woke me up!!!  finally, i'm
getting near the bottom though some woods and old logging roads.  i hear
this _BIG_ rustle in the woods and froze in my tracks thinking, "that ain't
no bird!"  i looked up and scanned the woods and low and behold, it was
a:


		MOOSE !!!

a full grown female moose (moosette??? :-) was hanging out checking me out!
i made some noise (clapped hands) in an effort to get the moose movin'.  it
was no more than 20-25' away from me!!  finally, it starts moving towards
the trail... wrong direction!!!!!!!!!!  it keeps moving and i start moving
toward the moose.  it causally heads into the clear-cut area chjowing on
occasional branches and then stops, about 20' fromt he trail.  i walk by.
the mooose is checking me out until i was out of sight.  what a beautiful
and peaceful creature!!!!  i wanted to go up to it and pet it!!  looked
so soft and mellow....  

finally, i got down to route 2.  53 cars went by before i got someone to
pick me up and drop me off at moose brook s.p. where deb was waiting for me.

all in all, fun, relaxing, and lots of time to ponder anything and everything.

re       <<< Note 235.378 by AKOCOA::SMITH_D "a hopeful candle lingers" >>>
                                -< Major hike! >-

    
>    Anyone have an experience climbing up to Mt Guyot from the Kanc.???
>    (going in over Bondcliff)?  and then on to Garfield?? 

from the kanc to the bond cliff trail head is about 8 miles of RR grade.
easy walking, and it'll be fast for ya because ya got dem long legs mon.
bond cliff is steep in spots, but not too bad.  i slabs the ridge with
switchbacks...  once on bond cliff, you are above treeline until
you drop down to the col where the guyot shelter path is... so, becareful
and watch the weather.  especially t-storms.  it is a long way to safety
if you get caught half betw. bond cliff and guyot.  once on that ridge,
you can cruise.  some minor ups and downs... i think there is a good
up to bond from bond cliff... very rocky and rough.   kanc->guyot in one
day is doable.  guyot -> south twin -> garfield -> out to rte 3 will be
a very long day, espec. w/ full packs.  

the views from south twin and the whole bond cliff range are some of the best
in the white mtns.  to the W, you have the fanconia range.  you can see little
old 4k owl's head in the middle of the pemi wilderness.  you can see loon mtn
to the south.  not many views eastward until south twin, where the prez.
range will stick up.  i did this hike in reverse as a loop from the parking
lot on the kanc last october....  awesome colors, beautiful hike.  i emember
sunday morning makin' breakfast and being treated to a total white out of
snow.  i was in heaven!!!!!!!

JC,

Glad you had a grate time! Hippy belated b-day!

glennnn

    
    
    JC-
    
    It cracks me up that you counted exactly how many cars "dissed" you
    when thumbin'....    :-)
    
    Hippy B-Day Mon
    
    Steve-O
    

    
    Hey mon,
    
    Thanks for that valuable info on Guyout.
    
    Sounds like you had a most fullfilling adventure!
    
    Was it any tougher to hike at 29?  ;-)
    
         	
    				- Deane	

re          <<< Note 235.382 by SALEM::MARTIN_S "Perpetual Smile..." >>>
                             -< Fifty three! Wow. >-

    
    
>    JC-
>    
>    It cracks me up that you counted exactly how many cars "dissed" you
>    when thumbin'....    :-)
 
i was reading in the hiker's notes file about someone who was hitching and
they counter 67 cars before getting picked up.  i wanted to see if i could
top that #.

    
    Just got back from an excellent weekend of backpacking in the Whites.
    Covered 6 4k'ers in two days, then spent yesterday being dragged
    behind a boat around Lake Winnepesaukee.
    
    Had two cars so we parked one at the Kanc. and the other in Twin 
    Mountain.  Hiked up on the North Twin trail.  At about 5 miles in, 
    we reached North Twin.  Then we continued on another mile or so to 
    South Twin at 4902'.....the views were incredible, the weather was 
    so cool and dry..could easily see Mt Mansfield, Jay Peak, and the 
    Adirondacks on the horizen.   After an extended stay on South Twin, 
    I continued on to Mt Guyot....very nice place, and very exposed.  At 
    this point we had hiked about 10 miles and the packs were getting 
    heavy, so we headed to Guyot Campsite and set up camp.  
    
    At about 7:30PM after a few shots of Vodka,  hiked up to West Bond 
    and took in the most crispy, clear sunset I have ever seen in my life.  
    The sky took on a firey image of reds and oranges.  In the foreground 
    were the erie summits of Lafayette and Garfield in pitch black....
    silhouetted with the oranges and reds of the sky, and the purple layers 
    of mountains that could be seen in the col.  There was not a sound, 
    not even a breeze, 100% silent.  Made me feel real good to be a citizen 
    of this planet! :-)
    
    Anyhow, Sunday we had more of the same crispy clear weather.  Hiked
    over Bond and then Bondcliff where I engaged in a feast of Oats
    and Gorp with many beautiful women %-).  Looking down on Loon Mountain 
    Ski Area, the place looked like a total molehill.  Hiking down 
    Bondcliff was easy, but seemed to take forever....when we finally 
    reached the Wilderness trail it was smooth sailing along the 
    Pemigawasset River....I must have taken at least 8 dips! :-) 
    
    The total hike was 22 miles....could have probably been done in a day 
    trip with a light pack, but I am thankful for Guyot Campsite and 
    it's water source.
    
    Excellent weekend, again reminding me of how damn lucky I am to have 
    the ability to enjoy these incredible sights.  I truely feel more 
    complete than ever!  :-)

    
    Sounds like a grate hike Deano.  Made me realize how bad I need to
    take a hike.
    
    	Mark

thinking about doing a hike this weekend, if the weather holds out.

i'd like to hike in somewhere in the whites on saturday, set up camp somewhere
(in the mountains that is, not at some family campground), and hike out on
sunday.  could be a loop, or just a simple reverse-direction on sunday (loop
preferred.  any good suggestions of places to catch some nice colors?  i've got
the amc white mountain guide, but there's so much info in there i'm not sure
where to start.

btw, just what are the regulations as to where you can or can not set up camp
in the forest?

- rich

re   <<< Note 235.387 by ROCK::FROMM "This space intentionally left blank." >>>

>thinking about doing a hike this weekend, if the weather holds out.

>i'd like to hike in somewhere in the whites on saturday, set up camp somewhere
>(in the mountains that is, not at some family campground), and hike out on
>sunday.  could be a loop, or just a simple reverse-direction on sunday (loop
>preferred.  any good suggestions of places to catch some nice colors?  i've got
>the amc white mountain guide, but there's so much info in there i'm not sure
>where to start.

>btw, just what are the regulations as to where you can or can not set up camp
>in the forest?



frrrrommmmmm!!!  :-)

pretty much, you can camp anywhere you want as long as it is not in a
restricted area.  restricted areas are _well_ documents.

as for where to go.  check out the kinsmans.  they are sort of off the
beaten path... there is a camping area near w/ platforms.

another is the carter-moriah range, which i did on my b-day this past
july.  it is pretty rugged.  you'll have far views to the east and
an excellent view of the prez'es to the west, which blocks out everything
else behind it!  

we're on vaca next week! yeah.
we'll be doing some backpacking also.   i wanna do owl's head, zealand,
and maybe jefferson again since it was socked in this past sunday.

i heard SNOW on top of mt-wash last night!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>i heard SNOW on top of mt-wash last night!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

	WOW. musta been real loud snow!!

re    <<< Note 235.389 by STOWOA::JOLLIMORE "The sound of one child crying" >>>
                                    -< ;-) >-

>>i heard SNOW on top of mt-wash last night!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>	WOW. musta been real loud snow!!

any snow in Sept. is loud!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



:-)

    Patty and I cut wood this weekend for and at our cabin on Mousquito
    Gulch...it spit snow all day Sat whilst we were cutting and flying...
    Sun morn there was about 1/4" on the truck and picnic table. The 
    accompanying wind blew the last of the golden leaves off the aspens at 
    10,000 ft., but lower elevations still have leaves. Saw a bunch of 
    antelope in South Park, bucks, does, and this years fawns. Didn't see 
    the bear that's been gettin into the Alma trash dumpsters though...it's
    definitely winter in the high country already....COLD!!!
    
    
    rfb

    
    	Anyone wanna go hiking??????
    
    	The weather is supposed to be warm and sunny, particularly 
    	Saturday....I am flexible and open to recomendations.  I 
    	was thinking of Passaconaway....but wouldn't mind hiking 
    	Cardigan if it was clear. 
                                    

I took last week off an bagged zealand mt for my 4kers list.  uneventful
peak, 12' connifers surround it.  but the sign!!!  an awesome sign indeed
(ha!)...  42 down, 6 to go!

also bagged liberty and flume for the 2nd time (or 3rd?).  snow above
3200' or so...

winter _is_ coming!!!!!!!!!!

    Megann bagged her first 4ker on Monday!  We hiked Cannon.
    Great hike!  Rain stopped just as we pulled into the parking
    lot and we were treated to a really nice day. Lots of color
    at lower elevations and just a tiny bit of snow at the top
    It had snowed at the top earlier in the day (Megann was
    psyched when we passed someone coming down who said it
    had been snowing and disappointed when she found out from 
    another hiker that it had stopped).  Great views of the snow 
    covered summits of Lincoln and Lafayette (the whole ridge was 
    white) from the outlook!  I'm not a big fan of the crowds
    at top but it was kind of nice to be able to go inside to
    warm up for awhile and enjoy a summit beer (hot chocolate 
    for Megann).
    
    She's psyched to do more so I'll get to do them all again!
    We'll do her first backpack next spring.
    
    Robyn

	did owl's head over the weekend... 43 down, 5 to go...

	anyways, jeff maggard and i cruised up to the licoln woods station
and as we were preparing our packs, along comes GerG! !!!!!!  he was planning
on doing the same hike.  so, we decided to bring all of Ger's brew, along with
the 1.5 liters of vino jeff and i had...  finally hit da trail to the
13 falls campsite.  we made camp, then headed off to owl's head via the north.
i was worried that the lincoln brook on the southern end would be uncrossable.
we cranked up owl's head, and had a brew at the top.  that was the last 4ker
for Gerg, so, we congratulated him accordingly.  finanly, back at the camp
site just before night fall.  we managed to get a pile-o-wood, make a fire,
and crank up some dinnah.  pasta and stuff.  whatever it was, it hit da spot
after 16.6 miles of hiking.  then, we just sorta hung out, drank brew & vino,
played w/ da fire, etc.  warm niught!!!  must have been 45F or so...  next
day, we hit the road outta there and we were back at our cars by 11am.  we
went to Truants in N. Woodstock for lunch and brew....

	cool hike!

	kinda funny to have GerG pop out of no where!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

24.6 total miles in 2 days... good hike!  My legs will never be the same
again! :-)

And next time, I'm gonna keep better track of where my wallet is.  

Doh!

- jeff_wasted_an_entire_Monday_cancelling_
  credit_cards,_bank_cards,_and_gettin_a_
  new_drivers_license_at_the_Woostah_RMV.

> we cranked up owl's head, and had a brew at the top.  that was the last 4ker
> for Gerg, so, we congratulated him accordingly.  finanly, back at the camp
                                                   ^^^^^

Hmmm?  Robyn was there too???   ;-)


PeterT

    
    
    Hiked Monadnock yesterday.
    
    Tons of snow up top, (over a foot) tons o' ice.  The trees were 
    plastered Oregon style.  
    
    better bring them crampons next time.

    
         has n-e-1 been hiking up in the whites recently?!? i'm curious
      as to what conditions the trails are in.
    
                                                           ^dave

	I spent Thursday and Friday in the Whites and Saturday in 
	Burlington VT.....

	The only place in the White Mountains with significant snow is the 
	Sawyer River area.  For some reason that particular area got 
	bombarded.  As soon as you hit Crawford Notch there's just patchy
	snow here and there.  Wildcat area has a little, but for the most 
	part their wiped out. Hiking would be pretty muddy right now.

	Vermont has ABSOLUTELY NO SNOW!!!!!  There's is nothing on Rt 302
	from the White Mountains to Burlington except for a few inches
	on the higher passes.

don't let the view from the highway conmvince you there's no snow.
i went hiking on May 10 one year and from the highway, you'd think
there was nothing.  over 3000' there was patches; 3500' 1-2' of snow,
4000'+ anywhere from 4-8' of snow.  so, prepare for snow at 4k+

jc

    
    I am totally going out of me tree to hike this weekend. 
    
    Anyone else goin up to the mountains on Sunday or Monday???????

    
    Last night I hiked up Mt Wachusett's West Side Trail to take in
    a sunset.  When I was on the summit, a Park Ranger pulled up and 
    asked me if I had seen "the bear" yet.  I just laughed, took a 
    pull off my beer and said "no buddy, ain't seen no bear".  I
    hadn't heard of bear in Wachusett park since they developed the 
    ski area.  I figured the ranger was being snide.
    
    On my way down I decided to be extra quiet and tried not to 
    exhaust my almost-dead flashlight.  I decended the cliffs on 
    Old Indian trail and hooked up with the West Side trail when 
    I quickly realized that the forest was completely silent.  
    No birds, no chipmunks, no nothing.  I knew something was up, 
    the forest should never be completely silent.  The longer I 
    stood still, the more prevalent the silence.  All of a sudden 
    I could hear what sounded like the crackling of sticks in a 
    fire.   I continued with caution just because the extreme 
    silence had spooked me out a little, when the stick cracking 
    sound was extremely solid, loud and close.
    
    Sure enough, right where West Side trail intersects with the 
    Semunuhemma(sp) trail (access road to my left) there was a 
    small open area.  Without flashlight, I saw a medium sized, 
    black silouette in the hemlock patch to the right.  The 
    cracking sound I had heard was the black figure stepping on 
    hemlock limbs.  Frozen stiff with fear, I watched the little 
    sucker do a quarter-circle around me.  Although he couldn't have
    been more than 30' away, the bear never entered the clearing
    so I could only see him for a second or two at a time.  I then 
    heard more hemlocks cracking, but this time from behind me, right 
    where I had come from!!!!  I freaked and pulled a Forest Gump.  
    Must have covered 100' of ground without my feet touching it...
    like a hovercraft.  Even though closed, the access road was a very 
    welcome sight. 
               
    A New England Black Bear is small and wouldn't attack.  However, 
    it/they let me know who the forest belongs to, in a harmless way.
    From this point on, I am going to do everything I can to prevent
    the ski area from expanding further.  That place is already so 
    trashed out with hundreds of cars going up and down every day,
    ski trails, snowmaking pipe, lift towers and misc. apparatus.
    Enough is enough.  It is a sin to disturb these creatured and 
    their habitat for money and our own self pleasure.     

    we move 'em if they get too close and start to be a "problem" bear
    round here....second time we shoot 'em....New study on black bears in
    COlo this year due to extreme changes in the hunting styles voted in by
    the non-hunting (and non-knowledgeable) public couple of years ago.
    3 or 4 have already been tranqed and moved from the west side of COlo
    Spgs this summer..that's just blocks (ok, in some instances miles) from
    my house. Got a couple round Toubledown too, as well as a young puma
    sighted last year by one of my fishin buddies. 
    
    rfb who has not seen enough bears or cats

    Deano Gump...kinda has a ring to it, eh ? :)))
    
    Wes_who_sees_a_fox_often_in_the_deep_part_of_the_outfield_at_the_
    Northboro_Middle_School_where_I_play_softball

Not much of a ranger, alcohol and hiking after dark are forbidden on the
mountain.  :-)

The ski area is trying to expand -- they plan to add 2? more trails, widen
others, more snowmaking, and another chairlift.  They've completed an
environmental study and had the first public hearing last week.  The impression
I get from the newspaper (the Landmark) is that the public mood is somewhere
between apathy and support of the expansion.  Most of the dissenters are
Mountain Rd. residents who are sick of the traffic, noise, and lights from night
skiing.

If you call the ski area or the Princeton town hall, they should be able to tell
you when the next hearing is.  The local newspaper (Landmark in Holden) may have
some info for you also.

Jamie

    re: dean-o
    
    nice story !  and yeah i love when people say 'when encountering a
    beare, do not run'.  
    right
    
    

    
    re -.1                                                             
    in all them warner brothers cartoons elmer fudd just laid down and
    played dead

cool mon!

deb saw a coyote walk right thru our backyard about 2-3 months
back or so.  i miseed it :-( 

i still haven't seen a bear in my 300 miles of backpacking/hiking
in the whites.  someday.

    re: coyotes - used to hear them around my neighborhood all the time at
    night - howling...  I've never seen one, but they're definitely out
    there...
    
    tim
    

    
    Gonna backpack in the Pemmi wilderness this weekend to try n' escape the
    humidity this weekend.
    
    Sounds like I may cross JC n' Deb's path!
    
    Rastafari!

re      <<< Note 235.411 by DELNI::DSMITH "We've got mountains to climb" >>>

       
>    Sounds like I may cross JC n' Deb's path!
 

			Potential Clearing!!!


RAGE!

   
>    Rastafari!


hook up we did.  good to pahty down with you and Steve-o mon!!!!!!!!!!!!



RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGE!

	Yup, definitely cool partying on top of Mt Garfield on 
	Saturday night, and then the gorgeous view from the living 
	room on Sunday morning!  I can still taste Goldshlogger (ie:
	heartburn).
	
	Steve and I hiked back down to 13 Falls and ventured up the
	Lincoln Brook Trail to Owls Head.  Owls head is a cool, 
	extremely remote area with wildlife galore.  After hiking
	up that trecherous slide to the top, a Partridge (maybe grouse)
	was sitting right on top of the summit point and posed for 
	some photos.  After a difficult hike back down to the base
	I saw a gigantic bird with at least an 6' wing span settle 
	down on a tree right above our camp.  Turned out to be a 
	Barred owl....what an amazing looking creature.  I got within
	20' of the sucker as we both gazed at eachother.  I've longed
	for years to see an owl in the wild and was psyched to see a 
	on of a rarer species.  Surprised they can fly through the 
	woods with such wingspan.

	Lot's of bear incidents going on in the back country.  Park
	Rangers were good about telling us areas to avoid if possible.
	Seems they're primarily located anywhere along the Wilderness
	trail, Franconia Brook trail (Hellgate falls junction is almost
	a definite for night time bear attacks), Desolation Shelter 
	(definite) and the Zealand area (slight).   
	 
	Reality seems ruthless and rude.  I wanna go back to the bush!
	

    Divide Dave, me, another non-deadhead friend and my nephew from Vegas 
    hiked down to Nichols Res again last nite for a couple of rainbows....
    
    coming around a bend Divide and I spooked a Grate Blue Heron out of a
                                                 ^^^^       
    shallow bay where he was spearing little trout...his wingspan was a
    good 6 feet. 
    
    Owls are cool...i've seen tons, but the grate horned owls of COlorado
    are HUGE!                               ^^^^^^
    
    Those pygmy owls of Arizona are pretty cool too...
    
    rfb_nature boy

re:      <<< Note 235.413 by DELNI::DSMITH "We've got mountains to climb" >>>

>	some photos.  After a difficult hike back down to the base
>	I saw a gigantic bird with at least an 6' wing span settle 
>	down on a tree right above our camp.  Turned out to be a 
>	Barred owl....what an amazing looking creature.  I got within
>	20' of the sucker as we both gazed at eachother.  I've longed
>	for years to see an owl in the wild and was psyched to see a 
>	on of a rarer species.  Surprised they can fly through the 
>	woods with such wingspan.

	That's cool!  I too had longed to see a live owl not in captivity,
	and one morning I woke up to see one, also a huge barred owl, on the 
	corner of my yard on a large branch...  I was ecstatic!  What a 
	gorgeous creature.  A bird-watching type person once told me that
	to see them just go out at night and follow the sound, but I've never
	tried it.

>	re: bear *attacks*

	I was in the Berkshires camping acouple weeks ago, and there were
	major bear warnings.  Apparently there are a couple of bears 
	frequenting a particular area in search of food.  We're headed back	
	the week after next.  

	I've been under the impression that if you're careful, leave all
	food in your vehicle, and don't get in their way, that bears around
	here shouldn't be a problem.   True ?

	/Ken

    
    I sure wish I could have owls in my yard...although, I'd get nothing
    done...I'd be out there watching em all night.  What really shocked me
    is the fact that this one came right to our campsite and hung out for
    at least 10 minutes.  It just looked at us as we looked back...no
    noise.  I wouldn't expect them to be so curious.  Makes me wonder if 
    theres more in the area.  I like owls.  
                                         
    Where abouts in the Berkshires?....my homeland is in the Shires of 
    Vermont and Massachusetts. Yeah, the bear warnings were primarily 
    focused to popular areas in the backcountry where there are no cars.  
    Most people neglect to hang their food as well toothpaste, soaps, 
    soiled/sweaty clothing...etc.  If you practice good bear tactics, you 
    will not have to deal with them.

re:      <<< Note 235.416 by DELNI::DSMITH "We've got mountains to climb" >>>

>    Where abouts in the Berkshires?....my homeland is in the Shires of 

	Florida ;-)  @ Savoy State park.   You could see bear scratches
	all over the dumpsters.  WHen we were there they moved a dumpster
	so that they could open up 2 more sites!  

	My kids, especially Timmy (5 yrs), were scared as hell when they
	heard there were "bears" around, and I was able to calm them (sort of)
	telling them bears around here don't bother people.   Then you	
	mentioned bear attacks, so I figured I ought to ask ;-)

	/Ken

    they don't re-locate and eventually shoot problem bears in NE???
    
    Are barred owls indiginoius (hey, I know the words, just can't spell
    them!!) to NE only? 
    
    A friend of mine was living on some summer property in a house framed
    out of aspen logs and the walls and roof made of tarps from K-mart. His
    "icebox" were several white styrafoam coolers. Whenever he'd leave the
    property, a sow and her cubs would come down and smash the shit out of
    the coolers looking for food, which they got everytime. HE went out
    one day and bought a nice antique white dresser for his daughter to put
    her clothes in. The next time he left, the bears came down and
    thought the dresser was another cooler. When they busted into it and
    found now food, they were PISSED! When my buddy  came back there was nothing
    left of the dresser but splinters. 
    
    Later, after the cubs left, a big boar moved into the area, unknown to
    my friend. He came back form the bar one nite to find his coolers all
    smashed again and heard a bear rumminging around in the dark. Went and
    got a stick and smacked to bear, thinking it was one of the cubs. When
    that 6 foot tall boar reared up in front of him and smacked him back,
    my bud said he almost sh*t his pants. He ran into his tarp house and
    closed the door! Lot's of protection inside a tarp house!!!
    
    
    my friend sold that property....
    
    
    rfb

re:                     <<< Note 235.418 by CXDOCS::BARNES >>>

>    they don't re-locate and eventually shoot problem bears in NE???

	I'm not sure. If a bear did any damage to people, then probably,
	but I've never heard of anyone getting injured by a bear.  The ranger 
	said that they had trapped one (not sure what became of it though,
	maybe a relocation?), and then another one showed up.
	
	There's definitely a conflict, but if the bears are just looking
	for food and don't mess with ya, I don't see any problem.
    
>    Are barred owls indiginoius (hey, I know the words, just can't spell
>    them!!) to NE only? 

	No, they're barred in NE ;-)   I don't have my audobon book, so 
	I don't know how far a range they cover.  At first I thought it 
	was a snowy owl, but the bars gave it away.  (Supposedly there
	are many snowy owls taking up residence at Logan Airport!).

	/Ken

    we used to see artic owls (assuming the same as snowy owls??) in the
    winter when I was kid hunting and hiking the fields of Montana. It was
    soo freakin cold in Canada they would drop south to the the balmy climes
    of Montana to hunt. again, HUGE birds.....
    
    
    rfb

re         <<< Note 235.415 by AWECIM::HANNAN "Beyond description..." >>>
                              -< owls and bears >-

.	I've been under the impression that if you're careful, leave all.\
.	food in your vehicle, and don't get in their way, that bears around
.	here shouldn't be a problem.   True ?


yup,, and more...

1. don't sleep in the clothes you cooked with.  hang'em in the tree or
stash 'em in the cah.

2. don't cook in screened porch thingy.  smell of food gets all over
it and the bear will wanna check it out.

stupid people are why bears become a pain.
personally, if a bear is coming to a state park or whatever, they
should close the park and leave the bear alone.
bear was there first.

... and I've been told that in really bad "beareas" out west that it's a bad
idea to brush yer teeth after 4pm... since bears come after the mint smell...


- jeff

    
    Did some good backpaking with JC o'er the weekend.  Spent Friday night
    at Shelter No.2 in the Dry River Wilderness, only two other people
    there besides us.  Got liquored up on Popov & flavor crystals and
    tried to guess what the setlist would've been for that night.  Cool
    evening with temps in the 20's.  Slept out under the stars and watched 
    the galaxy pass by.  Thought about Jerry, but not too much.
    
    Saturday, things got pretty intense (you know) and rage'd up Mount 
    Isolation and sat for 2 hours of jaw hanging views of the presidential 
    range accompanied by fantastic colors.   Ran into Laughing Man on the 
    way down.  This guy was quite a character who couldn't stop laughing 
    at the top of his lungs, it got contagious.  Had perma-grin(TM) for 
    the rest of the 11 mile day.  Heard rumors of Mall-like crowds on the
    Franconia range....oh my, glad I wasn't there.
    
    Spent Saturday night in reality at Russel Pond Campground and was
    blessed with Deb's home-made beef stew.  Woke to even more reality, a
    hangover and torrential rain.
    
    Thank God I'm a wilderness boy!    
    

RAGE!
twas a good hike indeed, espec on saturday.
rage

    Gerry Gladu and I finished Vermont's Long Trail in the rain last
    Friday.  The LT runs the length of Vermont for 268 (or so) miles.  We
    did our last section from Jonesville (Rte. 2) to Canada over 7 days
    last week.  We saw very few people (except on top of Mansfield) on the
    hike and had all the shelters to ourselves, except for one night.  It
    was a great, but grueling trip that gave me a new appreciation for 2k
    and 3k foot peaks.
    
    In celebration, we'll be accepting free beer all this month.  Reply
    here to reserve your slot.  :-)
    
    Jamie

    RE: -1
    
    Congratulations to you both. I've done much of the Long Trail and know
    how beautiful a hike it can be especially at this time of the year.
    Sorry you had to complete your hike with less than desirable weather
    conditions but those are the breaks.
    
    I assume that there is no customs office at the border - is this
    correct? 
    
    Now that you've done this one and Gerry G has also completed the AT,
    whats next on your hiking agenda?
    
    Jack

    Thanks . . . the weather early in the trip was fantastic, so it wasn't
    a big deal.  We first heard about Opal from someone on the summit of
    Jay Mt. on Thursday evening -- luckily the shelter we stayed at didn't
    leak that night.
    
    The trail reaches the border in the woods, just after a junction with
    the Journey's End Trail (yep, we had to walk a few more miles after
    finishing).  The border itself is about a 30' wide swath cut through
    the forest with monuments placed in the middle.  Visibility was about
    20', so if there was something else there I didn't see it.  :-)
    
    What's next?  Hiking the whole trail has left me with a list of
    shelters, places, and side trails I'd like to visit.  I started hiking
    the LT when I met up with Gerry for a few days during his AT hike and
    we went from Manchester to Sherburne Pass.  I had no plans to hike the
    whole thing at the time, but the beauty of the trail, its great shelter
    system, and the interesting folks I met along the way kept me coming
    back.  I have been thinking of doing the Mass. section of the AT next
    fall.  Gerry has some elaborate plan to hike up Mt. Adams in costume on
    Halloween, but I can't make it.  :-)
    
    Jamie

    wow! congrats from me too! I can barely walk from my office to my car! 
    say hi to GerryG from rfb next time you see him
    rfb

    awwww, Jamie...  you're not coming to the halloween party???
    i was thinking of getting a Barney costume but i was afraid they
    might throw me into king ravine...  :^)
    
    					da ve

i'm gonna do the halloween hike i reckon.
should be fun.


deb and i did a hike over our vaca.
we did hiking in the dry river wilderness area from rt 16, up
rocky branch, right on isolation, left on davis, left on stairs col,
left on rocky branch and out.  23 miles. 2 days in.  it was late
last week when the wehater was very warm and sunny. 
nice time.
no one around.

    
    Tomorrow (Thursday) night, after work, my friend Steve'o and I are gonna 
    climb Mt Wachusett under the full moon.   We try to do this at least
    once a month and we always party hardy on the empty summit.  It's an easy 
    1 1/2 mile hike each way on the West Side Trail.
    
    If anyone wants to join us, let me know here or email. 

    I wanna get into hiking.  Santa may be bringing me a cool vest
    for winter hiking.  Gotta get into some kinda shape tho!  Deaneo
    you're a tough one to match strides with!

    Tom

    
     how was the hike Deano?  sounded like a good time. maybe pak manadnock
     sometime soon, that's another short climb.
    
     Cath

    
    It was awesome!  No bears this time.
    
    For a change, we parked on the southside and took the mountain meadow 
    trail to Mountain House Trail...and I was glad we did.  The summit was 
    unusually cold for early November.  The temp was around around 25F and 
    there was a chilly wind from the west.  The lunar light was so intense 
    there was no need for a flashlight/headlamp on the way down.  
    
    Now that the leaves are gone, it was easy to see the jagged old growth in 
    the moonlight.  I was amazed how enormous some of these trees are.  On 
    fallen tree, had a diameter of nearly three feet!  The silhouettes of the 
    old growth dominated the new, like parents watching over their children.  
    Some had a threatening appearance.  A scene from the Wizard of Oz quickly 
    came to mind. Appropriately, we took the Jack Frost trail down.  The 
    sparkling frozen ground crackled beneath my feet as nearby screech owl 
    sang.  I sipped my beer, frozen like a slush puppy.  Winter is nearly 
    upon us. 

    
    Last night I spent some time reviewing my 1995 hiking log.  It's been
    a best year.  I've covered more miles, climbed more mountains, seen 
    more wildlife and partied harder than any other year.      
    
     9 4K'ers in New Hampshire
    22 Monadnocks
     3 Watatics
     8 Wachusetts
     
    Now if only I could maintain control of the beer belly.  :-/         

Wow! Keep on ... walkin'  :-)

    
    Anyone know where the heck the hiking notesfile went?

    Hiking is at STUBAI::HIKING.
    
    Robyn

    
    Thanks!

    
    Postcards from the AT by Gerry Gladu is on the internet :
    
    http://www.fred.net/kathy/at/gladu.html
    
    
    very cool

    
    Hey...I saw that the other day...didn't realize they were his postcards
    I guess.

    
    At least 2 days next week I'll be hiking at Wachusett after work.  
    
    These long days sure are nice!
                                                           
    Anyone else up for Wachusett next week?  Potential BBQ on top?

    
    Leblanc!!!
    
    I can't get through to your email account WMOIS.
    
    WTF is up with that?

    
    Did Monadnock for the 15th time this year on Sunday.
               
    Picked up more litter, saw more new grafitti, and dealt 
    with more rude individuals than ever before.  :-(
    Futhermore, the kettle along the Smith Connecting Trail
    has been stolen!! I hope the glacier returns soon.  
    
    On a brighter side, the mountain's wildflower community
    is springing back slightly.   Some of the less travelled
    areas were loaded with beautiful arctic summer flowers.
    Since the parks 1985 decision to not allow dogs, the
    mountain swamps have been slowly returning.  I've been 
    lobbying with the rangers to better mark the trails above 
    treeline to keep people from mistakenly wandering onto 
    the tundra. 

    what do absence of dogs and swamp returning have in common??
    
    
    rfb

    
    I guess the dogs would roll around in the alpine swamps
    to cool off after hiking up.  I read that on certain
    crowded days, the swamps would be full of dogs rolling
    around, playing, fighting...whatevah, and it would get
    to be quite a scene.

    damn...must be *REALLY* crowded up there! The two dogs I have now never
    really have liked water too much, esp. Arthur the Asshole..he sinks.
    
    rfb

going hiking this weekend....

	psyched!!!!!   :^) :^) :^)

	the band schedule has kept me off the trail since last halloween...

				da ve

    
    Where are ya headed?

	going north...  taking a right....  then up....  :^)


	actually, it's looking like we'll (Ger and i) head up to the 
	Northern Presidentials...  Israel Ridge Trail up to the RMC camp
	the Perch...  then climb Mt Jefferson, hang out on Monticello Lawn
	checking to see if the wildflowers are out yet...  then out the next day
	via the Castle Ridge Trail...

	one of my favorite areas, and i actually get some new terrain in on 
	this trip...

				da ve

    
    I hiked up to and stayed at The Perch last August with my 
    sweetheart at the time.  Very nice spot but ya gotta get 
    there early to get the tent platform away from all the 
    others.  Isreal ridge has a nice waterfall along it!

    
    Tuesday, after work, looks like JC, Slash and a friend of mine will be
    leaving the mtn bikes at home and hiking at Monadnock.  The daylight 
    hours are nearly peaking now and it's an ideal time for a Monadnock
    night.  We'll probably be taking one of the more discrete routes to the 
    top.   
    
    Anyone other DECheads care to join us?
    
    I have a link to a precipitation radar summary on the web and will be
    tuning in Tuesday afternoon to verify no T'storms are around before we
    go.

    
    Last night Monadnock trip was sensational.  JC and I were the only 
    participants in this trip (why don't people from here join us for
    these things?? It's revitalizing, exciting and fun...please trust 
    me!!!!).  Anyhow, since noone else was with us, we cranked to the summit 
    at a fast-walk/slow-jog in approx. 45 minutes.   We left the parking lot 
    at 6:45 and made the summit at 7:30.  It was real weird.  Almost as if we 
    were beamed to the top.  I usually average 1.5 hours for the trip, I'm not 
    sure what we did right.  The whole hike we only saw 1 other person.  The 
    summit was totally empty and it was breezy and cool.  We found a fine 
    windproof spot with a fantastic view North/West to Sunapee, Ascutney, 
    Okemo, Stratton and took an hour to quaff down a six pack of Killians.
    
    We closed the place, there was noone else around for miles...it was
    such a rare treat to have the summit like that and not have torrential 
    weather.  The wind made a sound like crumpling tin foil as it passed 
    through the rock formations on the barron tundra.  There were fantastic 
    patches of wildflowers here and there that swayed in the breeze.  After 
    my 3rd beer, I swayed a little as well.  The canopy of forest below was 
    so lush and such a color of green that it was indeed difficult to see the 
    forest for the trees. 
    
    We made it down in about the 45 minutes and arrived at the car right at 
    about 9:20.  No need for artificial illumination.  This particular hike 
    gets a 9.4 on the hike o' meter.  Minus .5 for slightly cloudy conditions
    and minus .1 for the one person we saw. ;-)  
    
    I forgot just how quiet these wonderful places are as I sit here rotting 
    away in the hustle and bustle of modern life.  My troubles and worries 
    waited patiently at the bottom of the mountain for my return.  I strolled 
    through a paradise that humanity seldom permits me to have for my own
    selfish enjoyment.  Every once in a while we get shown the light, in
    the most appropriate damn places!  ;-)      

Awesome trip indeed.
Good dead tunez on the way home too :-)

yes, it is rare to get the 1st (or is the the 2nd?) most-climbed mountain
in the world to yourself.  that in itself made the trip sort of
surreal.  great hike, good time...

I would have liked to have gone, but too golldanged busy this week.

  - Josh

i heard second most climbed...

first being mt fuji...

High intensity.


i think that about sums up my hike yesturday in the whites.  i took
the day off to hike because cold fronts from canada usually flush out 
all the pollution from NY,NJ,etc and make for some very clear, long 
range views.  drive up was fine, until franconia notch. raining! after
the notch, mostly overcast, but not raining.  my plan was to go up the
ammoonusuc ravine tr, crawford path south (over monroe using the bypass)
then hit eisenhower, and down the edmonds path.  about 9.5 miles or so.
made the  the Lakes of the Crowds hut (lived up to its name!) in 1:10,
compared to the AMC book time of 2:55... i guess all this mt biking is
paying off.  there, the winds were cranking, solid, 40 mph minimum, gusting
to 70+.  temp about 38F.  i put on some warmer stuff in the hut, cooled
down a bit from the haul up the ammonusuc, then hit the rd to monroe.
most of the 2 mi trek from the hut to eisenhower is above treeline, so,
i had the wind (north west wind) to me the whole way.  on top on monroe,
at just under 5400', rime ice was ewverywhere!  i was psyched!  winter!
rage!  it was in the clouds, so i could not see too far... maybe 30'.
kinda erie,... i was by myself, with the mighty wind raging!!  onward
down to eisenhower i droppped below the cloud ceiling and was treated
to some awesome views to thew west into VT and to the east...  veyr easy
to pick out Stowe & co... clear as a bell.  made it up to eisenhower and
as i climbed to the top of the cairn, the wind literally knocked me down!
incredidble.  this whole hike the wind just did not let up!...  i went
south from there and then made a right on crawford to dbl-back to
the edmonds tr.  down edmonds, got my bike i stashed, and rode back up
to marshfield station to fetch the Nova.  all in all, an awesome hike,
and weather you would never expect on June 26... Mt wash was reporting
SNOW (!!!!) and 29F... monroe summit must have been about 35F or so...
ice everywhere.  so, let this be a warning to those of you who summer
hike: winter can happen anytime in the whites.  luckily i knew this
and was prepared....

great hike... not often can ya enjoy such *intense* weather in the
summer!!!!!!!!!!!!


46 down, 2 to go!

    
    Ahhh yes.  Nothing like 3 days of backpacking in the mountains...covered 
    damn near 30 miles this trip.  Met up with JC Saturday morning on the
    Ethan Pond trail and cranked up a good 15 mile day up Mt. Carrigain.
    Some of the deepest Wilderness in the White Mountains along the Shoal
    Pond Brook Trail.  Yowza!
    
    The Captain Morgan and Vodka mixture eased the foot pain nicely
    Saturday night.
    

yup, good time indeed mon.
got the Nova in good shape for the ride up to NH.
New sneakers, front end align, etc.  it rages!


Carigain... #47.

1 to go: Cabot

took the day off yesterday to climb Mt. Moosilauke.
have to say it was one of the best climbs in recent 
memory.  my friend showed up on time at 06:00... loaded
up the Nova, and blasted northbound.  coming up 93, you
could see the franconia range and cannon blasted with snow.
i figured a dusting from wednesday's rain storm.  i was
pscyhed to see snow :-).  heading S on 118 from 112, we started
encountering the snow dusting as we climbed.  at the DOC
ravine lodge, there was about 6" of fresh snow on the ground.
we suited up, and hit the trail.  ambient temp was probably
about 22F (it was 31F in Groton at 05:45).  broke trail the
whole way... luckily, at the bottom it was only about 10" of
snow.  as we gained elevation, so did the snow depth.  we
cruised up the old carriage road most of the way... corn snow
underneath + a fresh dump of light powder made me really
want those skis!!!  i was dyin' !!  post holing was not an
issue going up the old c-road.  drifts we deep in some spots
as we got closer to the summit.  before busting out of treeline,
we suited up in wind gear and began the climb through the
tundra.  we did have a few post-holes 'cuz the snow was
at least 5' deep if not more.  excellent views W to VT... 
Killington, Sugarbush,
Camels hump and Mansfield all in view (S->N).  to the east, 
the franconia range was completely snow covered and was in and
out of the clouds.  mt wash... in the clouds... but you could
see that it too was snow blasted.  ate lunch on the summit...
nice 40 mph west wind w/ an ambient temp of about 15F or so..
lots of snow drifts, etc.  then, down gorge brook but not
before dessert of some oats to get going.  surfing through the
light powder was a blast !!  there was a good base of corn snow
underneath (5' or so, we were hitting the branches) ...
the sun was shining throught the
conifers.. descent was easy and loads of fun.  again,we broke
trail down the whole way.  never saw anyone else.
and with my love of snow/winter, i thanked mother nature for
the perfect setting for a hike in the Whites!

next week, i want to hike again...
no bugs on "The Moose" yet as it is still winter up
north.

    a friend in my group here at dec is a Dartmouth alumni and
    perennial member ot the outing club that takes care of the 
    cabins and trails on Moosilauke.  He's got a web page someplace
    that shows views of the trail and all the shelters.
    
    http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/whites/
    
    Hmm, guess it's more about the Whites in general,,,
    
    PeterT
    

    
    I had a nice (but long and grueling) hike up Mt Passaconaway on Sunday.
    
    Lots of snow on top.  It'll probably all be gone by then end of next
    week.  All together, it was a wonderful hike.  Sun, Rain, Hail, Sleet,
    Snow and a rainbow....all in one hike!!!
                                                                  
    This is one 4k'er I'm glad to get over with.  

You and steve-o have a bunch of "gems" left dude !
get used to those beauties!

I have one left... had it for a looooong time now.
Cabot.

hopefully next week i'll bag a day off and do another
hike before the black flies come and ruin the scene!