Conference rdvax::grateful

    Pat Metheny and Stanley Clark come to mind.
    Acoustic Alchemy is interesting sometimes, but they're more Yuppie
    Jazz.
    
    And, of course, the late grate Miles.
    
    tim
    
    

    I love jazz, and I Think (IMHO) David Sanborn is great!  Last summer
    I listened to "Change of Heart", while sailing down the Cape, and now,
    whenever I listen to that tape, I am taken back to that day on the water...
    
    Great stuff!!!
    Candi

As Tim said...Miles Davis is a terrific place to start.

Try the following:

	Neffertiti - great acoustic BeBop
	In a Silent Way - John McLaughlin's big break
	Miles Smiles - getting more electric
	Bitche's Brew - Check out where his head was at in 1968 - boggling!

For sax, you gotta check out John Coltrane.  Not always easy listening, but
fascinating stuff.  Also, Coleman Hawkins.

Chick Corea, Lionel Hampton, Billy Cobham, John McLaughlin, Pharoh Sanders,
Charles Mingus, Al DiMeola....

Go out and spend $$$$$$

	~dave

How about Larry Correal (sp?) or David Sanchez, both are excellent

Spiro Gira, or Abdullah Ibraham, and definitely Al Dimeola.

Among the hundreds of thousands of greats

Geoff

    Miles, In a Silent Way is amazing. Sounds like the Dead circa
    '74 doing space with a horn player.
    
    I was never into horns, but I've become very fond of good jazz
    guitar. Some of the stuff I've bought lately
    
    Emily Remler - East to Wes
    Joe Pass - One For My Baby
    Wes Montgomery - Wes Montgomery Plays The Blues
    Duke Robillard - Swing (actually I bought this a while ago but it's
    great!)
    
    - Dave

    "Asleep at the Wheel" kinda of Texas Swing/jazz (well jazz for Texas
    anyways :'))
    
    maybe this should be in the weird music note ?
    
    Chris

    Depending on your tastes,  you may find it hard to get into Miles'
    later style.  His early classics are "Kind of Blue" and "Milestones".
    They're more standard jazz, with some of the greats of the time in his
    band (including Coltrane).
    Other classics:
    Dave Brubeck - Time Out (THE classic!)
    Ornette Coleman - Free Jazz
    Thelonius Monk - Monk's Dream
    The Amazing Bud Powell
    Charlie Parker - Verve Sessions
    John Coltrane - Giant Steps
    
    I don't have all these albums, but they're on my list to check out
    eventually.  For more modern fusion stuff, I think John McLaughlin was
    already mentioned.  Also check out Jean Luc Ponty (Mystical
    Adventures, Enigmatic Ocean), Chick Corea/Return to Forever (Hymn of
    the Seventh Galaxy, No Mystery), and Al DiMeola (he has a live album
    that's really good).
    
    Scott
    

	I could have saved my reply from Wierd Music:

	Frank Zappa - Jazz From Hell, Waka Jawaka (hot rats), Sleep Dirt,
			*The Grand Wazoo*, and on and on...

	Really great sort of twisted classical/jazz.

	Ken

    
    
    
    
    
    
                              Joe Pass!!!
    

    How about:

	Ella Fitzgerald,
	Billie Holiday,
	Sara Vaughn?

	I really, really like female jazz vocalists!!

    Don

You should definitely check out John Coltrane if you're into sax.
Love Supreme and Live in Japan are 2 good ones to check out.

peace,
t!ng

    Another nice one for sax is John Klemmer.  "Barefoot Ballet" has some
    nice mellow stuff on it, and some of his other albums have him running
    the sax through a distortion box for some really scratchy sounds!
    
    Al DiMeola and John McLaughlin have always impressed me on guitar.
    Check out "Friday Night in San Francisco" where they, along with
    Paco deLucia, just fly up and down the fingerboards.

    For sax players I like:
    
    Coltrane - don't recall the name of the album, but the name of the tune
    I like most is called Equinox.
    
    Grover Washington - some folks wouldn't call it jazz, but that's what
    the record stores call it.  I have several of his albums, but my fav is
    Mr. Magic ... particularly the tune called Earth Tones.  The album
    features Bob James on keyboards, Harvey Mason on drums, Eric Gale on
    guitar and Ralph McDonald on percussion.
    
    Steps Ahead - featuring Michael Brecker on sax.  The album I have is
    called Modern Times ... my favorite cut is called Safari.
    
    An album called simply "In Concert" featuring Stanley Turrentine on
    sax, Freddie Hubbard on trumpet, Herbie Hancock on keys, Ron Carter on
    bass, Jack DeJohnette on drums, and Eric Gale on guitar ... this album
    features some intense jamming.
    
    Other favorites of mine include:
    
    Chick Corea/Return to Forever - Romantic Warrior ... the final two
    minutes of the title cut are some of my all-time favorite music, of any
    variety.  Featured with Corea are Stanley Clarke on bass, Lenny White
    on drums, and Al Dimeola on guitar.
    
    Billy Cobham - Crosswinds ... a jazz/rock type album featuring Michael
    and Randy Brecker on woodwinds and horns, George Duke on keys and John
    Williams on bass.  Typical of Cobham albums, this one features some
    incredible percussion.  Another fine album is Spectrum.
    
    Herbie Hancock - Head Hunters ... this was the original album with the
    band by that name.  This features Bennie Maupin on reeds, Paul Jackson
    on bass, Harvey Mason on drums, and Bill Summers playing an assortment
    of percussion instruments.
    
    Les McCann & Eddie Harris - Swiss Movement ... this is a jazz classic 
    recorded live at the Montreaux Jazz Festival, and features what was
    probably McCann's most famous cut "Compared to What".
    
    Jean-Luc Ponty - Aurora ... features Darryl Steurmer on guitar and a
    very young Patrice Rushen on keys (before she decided there was more
    money in disco).  The cut "Renaissance" is one of my all-time fav
    pieces of music.
    
    Flora Purim - Open Your Eyes ... features Airto, Ron Carter, George
    Duke, Alphonso Johnson, and a host of others.  Perhaps her best ever
    album (IMO).
    
    One other which I no longer have that I thought was worth having was
    Weather Report ... Black Market.  This is the album that has the song
    Birdland on it.
    
    And if you want an album with a variety of excellent artists on it,
    "Happy Anniversary Charlie Brown" is one of the best.  This album
    features cuts by such artists as Patti Austin, David Benoit, Dave
    Brubeck, Chick Corea, Kenny G, Dave Grusin, B.B. King, Gerry Mulligan,
    Lee Ritenour, and Joe Williams.
    
    ... Bob
    

    
    
                  STANLEY JORDAN!!!!!!
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Sean

    RE .2 (Candi)
    
    One of my favorite pieces of sailing music is "Chase the Clouds Away"
    by Chuck Mangione ... I prefer the live version.  Don't know which
    album it's on, 'cause I got it on a tape from a friend.
    
    A couple of years ago I was in an overnight race that turned into a
    drifter.  Just after dawn, before the morning breeze filled in, we were
    drifting in the fog when four whales surfaced off our port beam (that's
    the left side of the boat for you landlubbers).  I went down below,
    popped in that tape, struck up an oat bran cigarette, and spent the next
    several minutes watching the show they performed for our benefit, to
    that particular tune.  It's got to be my all-time best sailing memory.
    
    ... Bob
    

    Wow,..
    
    all of my favorites have been mentioned already,..
    
    You folks have some refined taste in jazz,.. 
    
    Keep it up!
    
    						/
    

    spyro gyra...  esp morning dance...

    
    Another good Spyro Gyra album is "Catching the Sun."
    
    Hogan

    Well, Thelonius Monk has always been my favorite.  I think his piano
    playing style should be in weird music! Talk about off beat, outta
    key!!
    
    I don't really have any particular favorites after him.  I like
    acoustic jazz, unless it's one of those weird Windham Hill fusion
    artists.  I hate electric bass in a jazz song.  Gotta have those big
    uprights!!  Gotta have a good bassy room/sterio to hear them most of
    the time.  Lucky I got 'em!
    
    Speaking of fusion artists, I have a Bill Bruford (ex-drummer for Yes,
    best drummer in the world!) album with great fusion on it.  Of course
    the songs have beat changes galore.
    
    dave

Most of my favorites have already been mentioned -- 

Another good John Klemmer album is "Touch" - soothing Sax....

Anyone else ever hear the Rippingtons?  (Moonlighting and Welcome to the St
James Club)  I guess you'd call it fusion jazz - it's kinda up beat..


Glenn

	Miles -- "Kind of Blue"  -- my all-time fave...

    For me, it begins and ends with Thelonious Monk. I keep a picture of
    him here at work as an inspiration--here's a guy who kept doing his
    thing even though almost everyone told him his music was wrong for
    *fifteen years*.
    
    Other folks I love: John Coltrane, Ornette Coleman, Cecil Taylor, Bill
    Evans, Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday, Charlie Parker, Bud Powell,
    Gerry Mulligan
    
    Other folks I enjoy: Johhny Griffin, Mose Allison, Don Pullen, Charlie
    Haden, Don Cherry, Charles Mingus, Max Roach, Stan Getz, and dozens
    more--almost anyone with some imagination, some swing, and some chops.
    
    I'm developming an increasing fondness for a quirky band called "The
    Microscopic Septet". (The theme and much of the incidental music for
    Terry Gross's NPR show "Fresh Air" is theirs.)
    
    There are many, many kinds of jazz. Just open your ears!
    
    John

I'll second what Bobbb said about Jean Luc Ponty's AURORA album.
What an excellent record that is...Daryl Steurmer is a fantastic 
guitarist!!  The whole side one is a classic.  

As for Jazz and me?  Well I really like Louis Jordan who sort kinda
mixes jazz and a bit of blues into a big band sounds.  If you have heard
Joe Jackson's Jumpin Jive then you have heard the songs of Louis Jordan
(minus the "I left my heart...." by Tony).  Louis stuff is hard to find....

His lyrics were great though:

is you is or is you ain't my baby
the way your acting lately makes me doubt
you's is still my baby, baby
seems my flame in your heart done run out!

and on and on...

Other stuff?  Well,  things like Return to Forever, some Weather Report,
a couple Airto/Flora records, some John Mcglaughlin (birds of fire...)
(what a bad spelling job) and I know there's more but can't think of it....

I would like to hear some Charlie Parker and Monk having never been exposed
(knowingly) to that....

luv that music....
bob

    Gosh!  I fogot to mention:  a grate radio station that plays jazz every
    morning from 6 to 10.  The show is called A Tasteful Blend.  It's
    mostly jazz with blues thrown in.  It's on WICN in Worcester.  Why is
    it a grate radio staion?  Because it's on the low end of the radio
    dial, which means quality music and sound and it's public radio which
    means no commercial BS and a wide selection of songs spanning music
    recording time.
    
    They have a different dj every day (most of the time).  My favorite dj
    is Jack Worth on Monday.  He's a cool cat.  Kinda beat-nikish.  The dj
    on Friday plays some good stuff as well.  The guy on Thursday plays a
    lot of old, lyric-based jazz and big band, which is not always my
    favorite.
    
    The station is 90.5, WICN.  Check it out!
    
    dave
    
    ps - this is not a promotion, just my opinion.

    I can't believe that I left out my favorite ensemble, the Modern Jazz
    Quartet. MJQ is the essence of power sublimated through restraint into
    grace. That's a terribly pretentious sentence, but these guys were
    amazing. Their Atlantic releases after the change in drummers are my
    favorites.
    
    John

    BTW, does anyone know where I can get a copy of Ken Nordine's
    "Word Jazz"?
    
    - Dave

            <<< Note 219.28 by GOOROO::CLARK "asymptotically normal" >>>
>    BTW, does anyone know where I can get a copy of Ken Nordine's
>    "Word Jazz"?
>    - Dave

hey dave, if you find out elsewhere then please tell us here -I've heard some 
of this and I like it....

bob

    some more to explore....
    Django Reinhardt...acoustic guitar from the 1930-1940's especially
    sessions from the Club Hot D'France..the man was way ahead of his 
    time..
    Stefan Grapelli...jazz violinist extrodinaire..if you like Jon Luc
    this guy had to have some influence (he's gotta be in his 70's)..
    he also plays on some earlier Django albums..he has also been on
    some Grisman albums and has played with Gary Burton.
    Gary Burton...xylaphone (sp)..
    Rippingtons ...nice 
    Yellowjackets...similar to Weather Report.
    Art Blakey and The Jazz Messangers....a legend and everybody and his
    uncle have played with this late GREAT drummer (Billy and Mickey have
    listened to him for sure)...(people like Freddie Hubbard,Miles Davis,
    Wynton Marsallis have all played with him)
    Oscar Peterson...man can tickle the ivorys
    James Williams..piano
    Wynton Marsallis...great trumpet
    Weather Report...Wayne Shorter and Zawinol...(BTW Bob B...The original
    Birdsong is not on Black Market...)
    Charlie Mingus
    Charlie Parker
    John Colltrane (sp)
    Art Ensamble of Chicago...THIS IS WAY OUT THERE but good musicians
    so much good jazz...need to look and develop your own tastes!!!!
    
    
    rich

    A couple of months ago I saw a Jaco Pastorius album in a used record
    store, but passed it up because I was being cheap.  However, Bob Weir
    played on that album.  Even had a picture of Bob on the back cover,
    trying to look cool smoking a cigarette (Bob smokes??).
    Anyhow, Jaco is another one worth checking out.  I have a tape of him
    with Jorma and there's some incredible bass playing.
    
    Scott
    

Just thought I'd promote a little live jazz.  Ryles (Inman Square, Cambridge) 
is a fab place to enjoy live jazz.  They have a "downstairs" with more 
traditional acts and an "upstairs" for more modern/way out stuff.  The cover 
charge covers both.  Food and drink are available.  They're open 7 nights a 
week.  You can pretty much drop in without knowing who's on, and be guaranteed 
of seeing good stuff.

Bill

    I also forgot to mention Steve Lacy. He plays the soprano sax, and
    produces a great deal of music with very few notes.
    
    John

    Scott....I have one or two Jaco Pastorius albums and bothe are great
    can't remember the names though...but worth a chance...also
    check out early Weather Report albums he played with them for
    a time,,,
    
    rich

I have had fun readin this topic  - lots and lots of good and varied 
suggestions to check out at some point.  Thanks for the pointers!

So far I've picked up a Branford Marsalis CD called "Music for Crazy People" 
which I really like, and a Spyro Gyra compilation CD that is quite different 
from Branford but enjoyable nonetheless.

Hey, I was reading somewhere that Branford is going to be the new Tonight Show 
Band leader when Johnny Carson and Doc Severison(sp?) retire in May.  Also that
Jay Leno will not hire a Ed MacMahon sidekick-type but will instead do that 
type of chatter with Branford, sort of a la Dave Letterman/Paul Schaefer.  I 
don't know how true that is but it is interesting.

Scott

    It's a little too, uh, "anal", to post in here but -- for an attempted
    outline of the broad sweep of jazz, see the topic 

      "Jazz outlined (Coming soon: Jazz, the cocktail napkin)", #503.5,
    
    in FINALY::JAZZ.
    
    Actually, I'll post a little piece here, because it's a little "wrong"
    in there, and happens to coincide with some tastes in here:
========================================================================
...    
  --> Free jazz
      . Charles Mingus (w/ Eric Dolphy, Booker Ervin), 1957-62
      . Ornette Coleman (w/ Don Cherry, Charlie Haden), 1959-61
      . Cecil Taylor, 1962-74
      . John Coltrane (w/ Pharaoh Sanders), 1965-7
      . Sun Ra (w/ John Gilmore), 1965-80
      . Art Ensemble of Chicago, 1969-80

  --> Fusion: Jazz/rock, jazz/funk
      . Miles Davis, 1969-75
          --> John McLaughlin/Mahavishnu, Chick Corea/Return to Forever, Herbie
              Hancock, Weather Report (Wayne Shorter, Joe Zawinul, et al.)
      . Ornette Coleman, 1976-
          --> Ronald Shannon Jackson, James Blood Ulmer, Sonny Sharrock
========================================================================
    FWIW, it also shows some of the good names in
    > New Orleans jazz
    > Swing (small group)
    > Swing (big band)
    > Bebop -- Bird, Diz, Monk, etc. [all 3 appear on a "Bird&Diz" Verve CD BTW]
    > Cool variants of bebop -- incl. Getz, Brubeck, MJQ, etc.
    > Hard variants of bebop -- lots of hot sax here, Rollins Saxophone
                                          Colossus, Coltrane Giant Steps
    > Modal jazz -- Miles Kind of Blue, Bill Evans Village Vanguard,
                                    Coltrane Love Supreme

  There's music from each of those styles that rearranged my head.
  Especially Bird & Diz, a thousand times Monk, Miles & Coltrane, Sonny
  Rollins, Ornette Coleman, the hot sax of Coleman Hawkins & the cool sax of
  Lester Young.  Definitely life changing music, the sound of freedom.

  I'm surprised Deadheads who are jazz heads didn't yet mention Miles' "A
  Tribute to Jack Johnson".  Side 1, feuled by McLaughlin guitar and Herbie
  Hancock organ, arguably blows away "Bitches Brew" et al.  It can't blow
  away "In a Silent Way", which isn't about blowing away -- beautiful quiet,
  flowing fusion, "electronic rain forest" stuff like the quiet parts of
  Bitches Brew..  And for weird dual-guitar-driven jazz/funk Miles from
  right before he dropped out of sight for 6 years, try "Agharta" or
  "Pangaea" (afternoon & evening concerts from the same day, for years
  available only in Japan).  [All are on US domestic CD except "Tribute to
  Jack Johnson", import only.]

  Miles' "Kind of Blue" is a natural for Deadheads, but the CD out has
  a compressed high range (masking flaws in the tape master), which affects
  cymbals and stuff like that.  CBS has promised to fix it.  Might not
  bother those who aren't sonic connoisseurs, since it is maybe the ultimate
  jazz album.
  
  A lot of great stuff was already mentioned.  One thing -- I love Ornette
  Coleman, probably the only guy who follows his instincts and R&B/bebop
  roots enough to make free jazz that swings -- but I'm not sure the album
  "Free Jazz" is the place to begin (or end or anything).  Some people swear
  allegiance to it but, I dunno.  The stuff I've always thought people
  should be paying attention to was recorded right before (1959-60) -- "The
  Shape of Jazz to Come", "Change of the Century", "This Is Our Music".

  Difficult listening if you force rock or swing or bop expectations on it
  (better to adapt to its flow), but like Louis Armstrong's 1928 "West End
  Blues" it changed the way a lot of music heads heard all music afterwards.
  (Unfortunately it also let a lot of charlatans get hyped by the jazz press
  as free jazz titans, but the music public ignored them so it's OK...)
  
  A lot of the above music is what prepared me for liking the Dead, so what
  can I say.   - Jay

Some of my favorite jazz artists are:

Miles Davis (his older stuff; I don't really go for his newer pop/fusion stuff)
John Coltrane
Charlie Parker

I have some other really good albums by:

Oscar Peterson
Sonny Rollins
Wynton Marsalis

And, if you like both the Grateful Dead and jazz, I strongly suggest that you
listen to some Phish.  While they're quite a bit different from the Dead
musically, there are numerous non-musical comparisons (type and loyalty ofaudience, 
primarily a live performing band, allowing of taping at shows, hotline and
computer newsgroup available, etc.)  They're an incredible band, originally from
Vermont, but now they tour on a national level.  (They just signed a long term
record deal with Electra, so if you haven't heard of them yet you may be hearing
more of them in the future.)

- Rich

    I just got a copy of "Time Out" by Dave Brubeck.  Definitely one of the
    most classic jazz albums of all time.  It was one of the first to use
    non-standard times (most early jazz was in 4/4), there's not a single
    track on the album in 4/4.  The "famous" track, Take Five, is in 5/4,
    another favorite is Blue Rondo A La Turk, in 9/8.  Been learning a
    little about how to count time by listening to this.
    
    For vocal jazz, my favorite is Billie Holliday "Lady Sings The Blues". 
    It's really bluesy but still jazz 40's and 50's style.  I think it was
    one of her last recordings, about 35 years ago.
    
    I'm still discovering lots of jazz, started about 10 years ago with
    people like Jean Luc Ponty and John McLaughlin (try some of his early
    stuff like My Goals Beyond or Extrapolation), and went back into their
    influences.
    
    Scott
    

re:< Note 219.38 by BCSE::ABBOT >

>    I just got a copy of "Time Out" by Dave Brubeck.  Definitely one of the
>    most classic jazz albums of all time.  It was one of the first to use
>    non-standard times (most early jazz was in 4/4), there's not a single
>    track on the album in 4/4.  The "famous" track, Take Five, is in 5/4,
>    another favorite is Blue Rondo A La Turk, in 9/8.  Been learning a
>    little about how to count time by listening to this.

9/8?  Wow, never heard that.  For 7/4 time, try to count Estimated Prophet. 
Took me a while to figure it out!  Also Uncle John's, especially the jam at the
end.  I really like 7/4 time.  Don't know any Dead songs in 5/4, but Rush likes
to do it.

I should listen to the Eleven some time!  (only heard it once, and don't
remember it)

adam

    Yeah, the 9/8 tune goes 2 2 2 3.  I didn't notice it until it was
    explained to me.
    
    Just bought my brother "Kind of Blue" for Christmas.  That album is
    chapter 1 of classic jazz, Time Out is chapter 2 (but I already got him
    that).
    
    Scott
    

RE:                       <<< Note 219.40 by BCSE::ABBOT >>>

   > Yeah, the 9/8 tune goes 2 2 2 3.  I didn't notice it until it was
   > explained to me.
    
    

    Do you mean |1.2| 1,2| 1,2| 1,2,3|?


    Jim who'd go ask Bruce but got yelled at when asking another musical 
    question today :^)


        
    

 Jim    

    
    <<< Note 219.41 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Don't go near that river" >>>


>>    Do you mean |1.2| 1,2| 1,2| 1,2,3|?

Yeah, I think thats what he means....

>>    Jim who'd go ask Bruce but got yelled at when asking another musical 
>>    question today :^)

I'm no Bruce, but I'll yell at you....AAAAARRRRRRGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

:^)

Hogan

    How does Estimated go then??
    
    |1,2,3,4|1,2,3,4|1,2,3,4|1,2,3| ???
    
    dave who_is_quite_curious_about_this
    
    

    Didn't we have this discussion last year?  :^)
    
    The time signature is x/y and means:
    
    x - beats per measure
    y - this note gets 1 beat
    
    So, 4/4 means 4 beats per measure, 1/4 note gets one beat.  4 1/4 notes
    would be counted 1-2-3-4, 4 1/8 notes would be 1-and-2-and-3-and-4-and,
    2 half notes 12-34, 1 whole note 1234, etc.
    
    9 1/8 notes in 9/8 time would be 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9.  But, you can count
    it any way you want as long as it comes out right.  You might think
    that 1 measure of 9/8 could just be divided into 3 measures of 3/8, but
    it isn't so (for reasons too complicated to go into, i.e. I don't
    remember but there's a damn good reason).  11/y gets akward, so count
    it 1-2-3|2-2-3|3-2-3|4-2 if you'd like, counting to 11 works too.
    
    No more time to tell how, this is the season of what . . .
    
    Jamie

    So would Estimated be:
    
    |1,2,3|1,2,3|4|  or  |1,2,3|1,2,3,4|  or |1,2,3,4|1,2,3| or am I
    totally way off beat??
    
    These things have baffled me since the dawn of my ears.
    
    And I can only dance to dead tunes, mainly strange beats like
    estimated.   Songs like that seem easier to me for some reason.  Those
    3/4 4/4 beats get boring.
    
    dave

Yep...we've talked about this before.  One of my favorite subjects!

Playing in the Band is in 10.  Counted [1 2 3 4][1 2 3 4][1 2]

	[ 1         2       3       4][1     2   3          4   ] [1  2]
	Some folks up   in  treetops.....Just a  lookin for their ki-yites.
	
Estimated is in 7.

     [1     2    3  4  5   6 7] 
	My time comin'  an y day, don't 
      wor   ry 'bout me no! . .


Now, to get real confused find the old Herbie Hancock album called Mwandishi.
The title song is in 7.5....he he he....


	~dave

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!

re:< Note 219.45 by SPOCK::IRONS "Setting the Standard for Deadcellence" >

>    So would Estimated be:
>    
>    |1,2,3|1,2,3|4|  or  |1,2,3|1,2,3,4|  or |1,2,3,4|1,2,3| or am I
>    totally way off beat??

It's hard for me to say which one it is.  I think they mix the phrasing
throughout the song.  When I'm going through the song in my head sometimes I
don't even count it off - I prefer to "feel" it (like Playing in the Band,
which has 10 beats per measure).  But you can usually break down songs in 7
into 4 beats then 3 beats, or 3 beats then 4 beats.

Going through the "My time coming, any day" part, I'd group it as 4 then 3. 
During the "California" part, the way I break down the vocals is 6 then 1,
sometimes 5 then 2.  That's just the way I do it.

Like Jamie said, it doesn't matter how you group it (grouping being simply a
way to accentuate beats - like the vocals in Playin are clearly 4 4 2), as long
as you count up to 7 (Estimated) or 10 (Playin) or whatever.  When I saw the
dead jam Estimated at Foxboro last year, they were rotating which beat of the 7
got an accent.  That's one of the things I like about the dead, Bobby in
particular.

Another weird one is Music Never Stopped, which is in 4/4 but the "they forgot
about the time" is 1 measure of 6/8, then a 4/4 measure with no music, then the
jam is back in 6/8.  I needed sheet music to figure out that one.  If you try
to count in groups of 4 during the jam, forget it.  It won't make sense.

For a real test, try to follow Pride of Cucamonga.  I don't know it offhand,
but it changes time signatures a lot.

adam

    Another song I was surprised to see so many time changes in is Neil
    Woung's "Words Between The Lines of Age".  The time changes almost
    every measure (or so it looked from the sheet music).  Although I doubt
    he was as conscious of time signatures as Brubeck (or Paul Desmond)
    was.
    
    Scott
    

    The Estimatd I usually refer to is on 5/5/77 (I think).  I listen to
    the drummers when they hit the snare.  I think it's usually 4 then 3.
    Mickey does this on the cymbals also.  
    
    I love that song.  I always try to play the air drums to it and follow
    the drummers closely.  It's tuff.  Gotta get in a very "concentrated"
    mood.
    
    Well, thanks all for explaining and being patient!
    
    Happy holidays, I'm outta here till next year in a few hours.
    
    dave

    For people who are interested in learning a little bit more about time
    signatures, I would recommend reading the liner notes of Brubeck's
    "Time Out".  It's got a little blurb about each song, including how the
    time is done.  The title track is neat 'cause it changes to common time
    in the middle and back again.

    Don

    If anyone remembers the Musician magazine tag-team interview with Jerry
    Garcia & Elvis Costello...  Jerry had some real interesting commments
    about jazz players he listens to for relaxation/inspiration.  (Also a
    particular country/bluegrass fiddler he was into at the moment, the
    "Charlie Parker of fiddle" -- Charley(?) Stoneman.  Still trying to find
    that Rounder live LP of Stoneman he recommended.)
    
    I remember he singled out Charlie Parker and Art Tatum as two jazz
    players whose ability to weave melodies (and substitute harmonies)
    across a tremendous range of material impressed him.  He talked about
    the lines they played, some of which he tries to pick out on guitar.

    Just like in "rock" or anything, I'd say the players to check out are
    the ones whose whole career contain multitudes, the ones who can take
    over your musical outlook for weeks at a time, and that you can return
    to again & again and discover new things -- like Bird and Tatum, also
    Ellington, Monk, Coltrane, Miles.
    
    Specific recommendations are a puzzle, like when someone asks what's the
    best Dead/ Van Morrison/ Dylan/ Otis Redding/ Joni Mitchell/ or whoever,
    good musicians with long careers (OK, only 6 years for Otis) and
    complicated musical personalities whose relative low-points even
    produced gems.  But you have to start somewhere, and the albums named in
    here look like good entry points.  I copied down a couple myself.  - Jay

    
    
    Not to beat a dead corpse (uh horse that is), but I learned all about
    time signatures and phrasings of rhythmic patterns to create song
    structure when learning drums as a youngster...
    
    Indeed Jamie's rendition of time signatures is right on, but even at a more
    detailed level, the beats within a measure are broken down into
    duplemeter segments and ternomy (spelling?) where the duplemeter is
    counts of two beats, and the ternomy is a grouping of three.  So in
    counting Estimated Prophet for example there are two groupings of
    duplemeter and one of ternomy for each measure:
    
    | 1 - 2 | 1 - 2 | 1 - 2 - 3 | 
    
    As Adam noted, sometimes (actually more than sometimes) the boyz spice
    it up by switching those three phrasings around, and at times obscuring
    them so to make the 7/4 time non-obvious, but if you listen carefully
    and count along, you'll always be able to keep on track (even if there
    is no track) by counting 7/4.
    
    Jamie's point about switching 9/8 to three measures of 3/8 is also true
    in most but not all cases.  If your 9/8 music is broken into three
    groupings of ternomy:
    
    | 1 - 2 - 3 | 1 - 2 - 3 | 1 - 2 - 3 |
    
    then indeed it can be broken into three measures of 3/8, but if it were
    phrased with three groupings of duplemeter and one of ternomy:
    
    | 1 - 2 | 1 - 2 - 3 | 1 - 2 | 1 - 2 |
    
    then it could not be broken down into three measures of 3/8.  Also, 4/4
    is the same as 2/2, and 6/8 is the same as 3/4 and composers use one
    variation over the other because of the "feel" of the song (a concept
    which if more difficult illustrate given this medium).
    
    TreeTime

    re (even if there is no track)
    
    	I never play music with this guy,... he's always off track,..
    or is that out of his tree,.. or off the beaten path as it were,..
    perhaps he has taken the track less drummed upon,. I'm not sure,..
    but its a lot of fun having him around :-) :-)
    
    								/
    

looking for some input -- any opinions on these albums (offered in classifieds
for $8 ea. on CD) 

Spyro Gyra     Carnaval
Spyro Gyra     Alternating Currents
Miles Davis    Dig  ($5)

Not jazz, but what the hey -- 

Stevie Wonder  Characters



On another note -- having read through this topic again, I wanted to mention
on of my favorite Joni Mitchell recordings "Shadows and Light" which is live
and most of the tracks include Pat Metheny and Jaco Pastorious....

    Spyro Gyra ... Alternating Currents ... definite thumbs up.  It's one
    of the better S.G. albums (IMO) and my roommate has 'em all (and plays
    'em frequently).
    
    ... Bobbb