Conference rdvax::grateful

    
    
    				Essence
    
    
    

    I didn't know it was a question.
    
    Do you mean what are we looking/striving for ...etc.?

    
                        Being
    

	Just one word?

		OK then, I'd have to say Peace.  It is the one best
		word that can describe what I quest to find 
		in my lifetime, and hope everyone finds as well.

	if I could only add two words to that I think they'd be ... of mind.

	I knew I couldn't contain myself to one word!!

	Good topic Tree ... thanks for the thoughts you provoked!  :-)

	Lisa

			E A R T H

                                Experience

				

		Death...




			Oh yeah,


		And Taxes...


:-)

	enlightenment.

    What?

    love

    It's .10...that or a big fat doobie!!! %^)
                                      rfb

    >the people who I regard highly in life's wisdom and learnings
    
    Yer in big trouble!
    
    My answer: instinct.  Food, shelter, breed, fight, flee, love, etc.
    
    
    I also believe that homo sapiens is moving towards extinction and we're
    doomed to be the second most successful species to rule Earth (so
    far!).  We won't be missed or remembered.
    
    Jamie

re:                <<< Note 208.7 by SPICE::PECKAR "Hail Baby!" >>>

>Death...And Taxes...

 Geez, I thought fer sure he woulda said...
    
    

    
    
    				SUGAR!!! 8-}
    
    
    
    
    

	Books!

	Life

    Well, considering the alarming number of babies these days, I'd say:
    
    reproduce
    

DEATH

OK, just to add a bit more fun to this discussion, how do you think your life
is controlled?  Do you believe you are in control of your own destiny?  Or,
do you believe that your life has been charted out already and the all the
answers are burried somewhere deep in the universe?


For me, I believe in fate.  I believe that I don't really have any control over
what has been planned for me.  When I come to a cross road, the decision I
make has already been planned for and made, somewhere, deep in the universe.

RE:        <<< Note 208.18 by ESASE1::JCFERGUSON "Shaken, not stirred." >>>
   
>                    -< another life-related question >-

  I believe that you chose your own destiny with the decisions you
make on a day-to-day basis.  If it is that life is planned, and everyone
has a certain fate, Why bother?  If I were to come to a cross road, if my
life has been mapped out, why think about which way to go, just go.  IMO
if you have a certain fate, the entire thought process is basically
useless, because no matter what you decide, it's already been decided.
That would bring mankind too close to being robots IMO. Why should I 
care about being moral and good if my life is planned, if I'm going to be 
good, I'm going to be good... if I'm going to be bad I'm going to be bad.
Why should I TRY to be either if I can't control it. 

 NEways, for ME the bottom line is I have freewill to chose on how to live my
life, then my life (and death) is affected by how I make those decisions. 

  Grate question JC. The first time I was introduced to this question
I was 13 years olds. I have always pondered on it over the years but
I still come up with my own *personal answer* as being the one above.
But no matter how I feel on the subject I do beleive this to be
a subject that is strictly to do with PERSONAL philosophy. I'm not so 
sure if there is a right or wrong answer. ALthou I do think mine is
the only answer ;-). But seriously, only in the end will we know (individually)
what is what.

Shawn

re:        <<< Note 208.18 by ESASE1::JCFERGUSON "Shaken, not stirred." >>>
   
>how do you think your life is controlled?  
    
    I don't believe my life is controlled by fate, destiny or karma, etc.
    I guess that's why a Guardian Bozo has been assigned to me. :-)

    
    First Question:
    
    		Perspective
    
    
    Second Question:
    
    		Definitely not fate... what a somber thought that it
    possibly could be...  I would say more, but it would sound exactly like
    what Shawn just said.

I believe that people control their destiny.  Whats more, others influence
it.  However, there is an anomoly in my line of thinking because I do believe
in fate when it comes to "that time" (for a person to die).  I dunno, I think
maybe it is the one part of the faith which I was raised in which I can't seem
to shake. 

Lisa

I guess fate is part of life in that "what will be will be."  However, I
believe very strongly that we create the path of life that we take as we
go along.  This is essentially an existentialist philosophy.....we are
responsible for our lives, and our actions and thoughts determine where our
lives will take us.  The more I see of life the more I'm convinced of this.

The book "One", by Richard Bach deals with this question in a big way.  Its
a pretty good book, recommended to anyone pondering this question.

Dave

    
    I thought of "One" while reading this note also. :-)
    
    I too believe we determine our own destiny.  I think there are lots of
    outside forces which also contribute to those choices, but ultimately
    there ARE choices.  We certainly can't control everything but there's
    no way I believe that it's all predetermined.  
    
    

I like to use the analogy of life being a river that you are floating along. If
you do nothing you will keep floating along and possibly hit some rocks or run
ashore.  You can paddle or steer to avoid the rocks or to go down some rapids
that look like fun.  Watch out for the waterfalls! :-)

I see the river's current as symbolic of fate and your steering and paddling as
free will.  A little of both is involved in navigating the river.

		Dave

    Re: .25 I love the analogy of the river.  I too believe that the "big
    picture" in my life is determined by fate.  The immediate choices are
    mine to make, and determine the direction my life takes within that
    "big picture".
    
    Rose
    

RE: >how do you think your life is controlled?  
    
	We are all but Marionettes, dancing through life controlled by...






				Cosmic Strings!


:-)


Fog

    both I think...  
    
    We are making it up as we go along... but the books already been
    written and some things are just ment to be...  we are the Writer and
    we are the Book.  
    	 ... and as long as we are alive, everything is subject to change...
    
    Like Dave... I see the river and go with the flow...

    enjoy

I think we have a choice as to which path to take when we come to a
junction in life; and once we made a decision, then the path we choose
can only present us with so many other choices, but none of which are
the same as if we had taken another road.  So in a way, our life is
predetermined only in so much as that we are presented with a limited
selection of choices, but we get to choose which path we take.  Huh??
;-)

Wow, what disagreement with my philosophy!  That's ok.

	How do you know, when you make *that* choice, that fate did not
already know the decision?  You may labor over a decision, banter back and
forth, but eventually you decide between A or B.  All the bantering is
part of your fate, and the final decision is already known, somewhere, in
the depths of the universe.

	Of course, this is all impossible to prove as it is a philosophy
vs. something concrete at this stage in the universe.  but think about what
i said; i mean, it could be fate, could it not?  are we really just a
bunch of roboots running some program?  who knows...  are humans just not
smart enough to realize that they don't have control of their destiny and
they are in fact running on a predetermined path?  I don't want to start
any flames here, just a little discussion... this is just my thoughts in this
subject.

	i also believe that if one firmly believes in the fate theory (and,
i frankly don't because I contradict the next thing about to write), then
there is really no need to worry about a lot of 'scary' things in life,
such as airplanes crashing while you're on board, cars crashing, getting
shot/stabbed/etc... in other words, your death.  does anyone worry about
death?  does anyone worry about dying before your time is due?  sometimes
i do, especially when life is going well...

	some things to think about and ponder.

    I don't buy all this fate stuff. I'm a firm believer in Bozology. After 
    all, it may be one's fate or destiny to get shut out for New Years mail
    order, but it's one's Guardian Bozo that'll get you tickets regardless. ;-)

    anyone see Mr Destiny? %^)
                              rfb

    
    
          A C C E P T A N C E........*
    
    

>    anyone see Mr Destiny? %^)

	Yes, as a mattery fact. He jes tromped inta my cube and stole my DJRR.

	Doncha jes hate when that happens?

fog

What am I doing with my life?

	working (please note this is at many different levels; not just while
	in the office, but with my kids, my wife, my persona, etc.)

How is my life controlled?

	God has a little radio control module for each of us that is used
	whenever we look like we're getting too close to the truth. This is the
	origin of the concept of discombobulation. Until that magic red button
gets pushed, we're on our own.

		A W A R E N E S S 

    re .36 ,.. and the origin of discombobulation,...
    
    	:-) :-)
    
    	Good stuff. Somebody sign thet person up!!!
    
    							/
    

re .36 ,.. and the origin of discombobulation,...
    
    Gee, and I always thought the origin of discombobulation came from 
    describing the workings of a blender. ie - what you put in, is not
    the same as what you get out. Musta been getting a little too close 
    to the truth that night, I guess. ;-)

    "Always look on the bright side of life..." - Monty Python...
    
    As for the first question I agree with rfb, All you need is love, but a
    cold brew and a warm spleef don't hurt none...:-)
    
    As for fate - no offense, JC, but I've met too many who use fate as a
    excuse for their own selfish intent.  We each have a free will, to
    choose the path that suits us best.  Others may influence our choice,
    but it is laziness, selfishness, or weakness to allow them to control
    us.  If ya don't pay attention to where yer goin', then don't bitch
    when ya don't know where ya are!
    
    I have a big problem with this issue, personally.  I'm kinda laid back,
    and tend to let others influence me too readily.  In the last two years
    I've spent a lot of energy swimming back upstream to correct or
    overcome the bad choices I've made at various junctions in that 
    grate river...
    
    But at least the struggle reminds me that I'm still alive - and when
    you get to wondering about whether you are or not, that can be a very
    reassuring reminder....  I must be alive - it wouldn't be such a pain
    in the ass if I wasn't. :-)
    
    tim
    

    
    
                          Fulfillment
    
    
    

     I like 	Peace
     I like 	Acceptance!

     Like the river and
     			 I like Sailing!!

     	You can't control the direction of the wind, the strength or even
     the presence. But when you've got wind you can go wherever you want. 
     If it's too powerful you might have to reef once or twice. If you don't
     reef early enough you can find yourself in a position where it's difficult
     to reef.
     	But you're at the helm and you decide where to steer. If your 
     destination is up wind you've got a beat, a lot of work, hard on the 
     wind, with water in your face and pile of extra miles just to make 
     one good one. If you have to get to get where the wind is abeam it 
     can be an easy set, but beam seas can be uncomfortable. If it's dead
     down wind you choose to steer a jibe or a run. Running DDW in heavy 
     wind and seas can be very dangerous without a preventer of some type,
     but a preventer can get you in a mess of shit if the wind shifts. Jibing
     that same course can be easy, fun and fast, but you have work to do 
     when it's time for the jibe. 
     	Sometimes sailing to weather is easier.

     Life's a reach & then you Jibe
     	Geoff

re                 <<< Note 208.40 by SCAM::GRADY "tim grady" >>>
                                  -< Zzzzzzz >-

>    As for fate - no offense, JC, but I've met too many who use fate as a
>    excuse for their own selfish intent.  We each have a free will, to
>    choose the path that suits us best.  Others may influence our choice,
>    but it is laziness, selfishness, or weakness to allow them to control
>    us.  If ya don't pay attention to where yer goin', then don't bitch
>    when ya don't know where ya are!
 
Well tim, you have not met me.  I'm far from selfish or lazy.  And, as my
girl friend will tell you, NO ONE, and I mean hardly ANYBODY, tells me
what to do.  When I go to make a decision, I don't just say "ah, I do X
because in the end, it doesn't really matter because it is all fate."  I
labor over decisions, and sometimes have a difficult time coming to make a
final decision.  After I've made the decision, I'm usually happy (occasionally,
I wish I had chosen something different).  I'm tenacious, and will most likely
remain that way for many years to come.

I look at fate as more as an aftermath of a decision.  I don't use fate to
make decisions - I use reasoning and logic.  I suppose I'm not a hard-core
fatehead, but, I do realize its presence as a thought-provoking subject.
I don't preach fate to anyone, it is just my way of thinking about some of
this life stuff.

JC

    
    
    				Learning
    
    

>    				Learning
    
 
	Yes!!  My old personal ... "life is for learning"   

    yes

    AMEN to .46, brothers and sisters!
    

	The answer to both:   Karma

    RE .42 >
    
    Geoff....nice analogy of life....enjoyed it much!!!
    
    							dugo.......�

	well, Tree, here's where my opinion is at at this point
	in my life...

	answer to life?  I agree with ting, enlightenment...once it
	is truly attained, there is no more need for physical life...

	fate?  I agree with Ken, karma, true karma, not instant karma!,
	but karma in the sense of reincarnating into a particular life
	in order to "learn" something on the road to enlightenment...
	this does not mean that the life is all pre-determined, oh no,
	most definately not, the decisions and paths you take are most
	certainly your's... but will they take you to a higher level?
	you can make the conscious decision...you can make it happen!

	Debess

    Life is like an ice-cream cone ... you have to lick it one day at a
    time ...
    
    		... Charlie Brown
    

	 I don't really have any feelings about reincarnation or anything
	 like that with respect to karma, which I guess is what the dictionary 
	 defines karma as.  I don't think we can be conscious of reincarnation, 
	 though some say there are.   I never really understood what "karma" 
	 meant in the past, always wondered about it, heard about it often,
	 and wondered about it's definition.  But the way I understand it,
	 karma is you get what you give and vice versa.  
	 
	 Like, if you steal from someone, someone will steal from you.
	 If you're kind to someone, someone will be kind to you. 
	 If you make someone great tapes, someone will make you great tapes ;-)

	 In every aspect of life I really believe in this.  Whether it's
	 God/religion (maybe hell is here and now if you're so inclined)
	 or whether it's just er, the natural order of things I don't know,
	 but from experience I think it's real.

	 Ken

        "One"

   Good book!

   Glenn - Another fan of Richard Bach

   (But afraid my "one" may have already passed away from this lifetime - this
    question comes to mind whenever I think of this book - tough one to deal
    with sometimes - ya think maybe there could be two?)

    keep da faith Glenn %^)
                           rfb

    I think karma is the law of cause and effect on a higher level.

re:   <<< Note 208.56 by VERGA::STANLEY "what a long strange trip it's been" >>>
>
>    I think karma is the law of cause and effect on a higher level.


	I think karma also applies to a "lower" level; ie, to everyday 
	life as opposed to after-lives.   At least it starts there.

	Ken

    No.. I'm not refering to after lives at all.  I mean right here now
    this sort of life.
    
    Lets see.... hmmmm .... 
    
    		You blow off work time after time after time...
    		It catches up with you and you get fired....
    
    		Karma dude
    
    It just seems to work that way...
    
    Mary

    
    Cause and effect on a physical level... open the faucet, the water
    comes out... cause and effect on a karmic level... cheat on your wife
    ... end up in divorce court... 
    
    It all happens here in this life, in this world..

I thought nice guys finished last?  ;^)

Does this mean that Ronnie Reagan is Going To Get His someday?

-dc

    
    
    >>Does this mean that Ronnie Reagan is Going To Get His someday?
    
    Oh yeah......he will, one way or another
    
    Hogan

    You got it. :-)

	yeah...I agree what you are talking about is a true phenomena...
	I see it happen all the time...as an example, I live with a man 
	who will always stop to help someone who's broke down along the 
	road no matter if it's a stranger or if he's in a hurry or it's 
	raining or whatever...and then I have seen wonderful people stop 
	and help him or go out of their way to help him so many times...
	that yes, I believe it is a true phenomena...but this is what I
	call "instant karma"...it's the case of sending out good "vibrations"
	into the world and getting them back (it works the other way too,
	but let's think positive)...

	what -I- am calling karma has nothing to do with "reaping what
	you sow"...at least not in THIS lifetime...it has to do with
	this road to enlightenment that (I believe) we are all on...it
	has to do with achieving certain goals along that road and if
	they aren't reached in this lifetime...well, you have another
	chance somelife to experience a chance to succeed...my belief
	is that you pick your life so that that chance will present itself
	to you and you can choose to accomplish it...or not...but
	that is what karma is to me...that purposeful choice your spirit
	makes to live this particular life...

	Debess

    Oh... I see Debess.
    
    For me, Karma is more immediate.. it works almost like a physical law..
    step out of line and wham.... :-)
    
    just-lucky-I-guess-mary

    You're both right,. IMHO
    
    It is a "feedback" thing. You get back what you give out. Give off
    bad vibes,.. you get screwed. Give off good vibes and do good things,
    good things will happen to you.
    
    Exactly when will the feedback occur is all we're hashing over,.. and I
    say its all the same. I mean,.. looking past my physical body to the
    realm of the soul,.. this life we're living is just one stage of what
    the long haul is all about. And when talking about karma,.. it doesn't
    matter if it catches up with you before you die,.. it will catch up
    with you sometime,.. perhaps after you die,.. but thats still *YOU*
    and your karma,.. just in the hereafter instead of the here/now.
    
    							/mon
    

	one point of what I'm trying to say...is the giving out
	of good but then something real shitty happens...I mean
	real shitty...the "why do bad things happen to good people"
	syndrome...I don't think that this is an "excuse" to NOT send out
	the good anymore ("instant karma's gonna get you"!)...and I don't 
	think of it as a "punishment" for something you've done...I look 
	at it as something you've got to experience at some point in your 
	soul life for some reason to get to the next stage...and I THINK 
	it relates to something YOU'VE done before (in another life)...

	I'm thinking of Eric Clapton...this man has lead an incredibly
	difficult life and we've been witness to much of it...we've
	been witness to it because he also has an incredible talent...
	we've seen him struggle and work through it...
	I've been thinking that we are witnessing one of those souls
	who is approaching enlightenment in a near lifetime...
	next time he will be a Ghandi-like person...

	hey, believe it if you need it!
	Debess

    
    RE. last few >
    
    Karma is truth, karma always exists, it never leaves and will never
    disappear, it is neither good nor bad, it's what happens....it is
    creation in motion...the basis of all that was, is and ever will be.
    
    The key is acceptance, if you can always take the good with the bad and
    understand what it really means, there is no hardship...
    
    Why do the bad guys always seem to win???  Why does Sh*t happen to the
    nicest people...no reason...what do the bad guys really win, are they
    really bad, Reagen is Reagen...your judgement casts his fate...and the
    nice folks in the world who seem to be on the wrong end of the stick...
    
    Is it really that important of a stick anyway and are they really nice 
    folks after all...
    
    Karma is the basis of Buddhism...within this relm everything is
    illusion...Reagen and the Dead...
    
    					Peace,
    
    							dugo
    					
    
                                                                        

    
    Patterns...
    
    In nature, and simulated by man.  
    
    Like when the frost on a leaf is viewed under a microscope, a seemingly
    infinite fractal is revealed.
    
    Like the brief glimpse of part of the understanding is revealed by
    experiencing a deja vu, you've been there before, life is cyclical.
    
    The sun feeds us all, the balance it enables in our solar system keeps
    our infinitely resilient planet humble by sheltering its knowledge of
    how delicate it really is.
    
    To map the universe in one's mind, a completeness is felt like no
    other.  The spatial range of infinitescimal to grandiose is in itself
    too vast to comprehend let alone the context of those objects that
    exist in the range.
    
    Happiness is not a puppy dog or an ice cream cone, it is meeting the 
    challenge to be satisfied in a life devoid of answers but full of
    questions.  
    
    Tree_diary 

Interesting, Tree...

Patterns reveal themselves in different planes of
consciousness.  Life decisions often are forced upon us
by converging lines of seemingly unrelated series of
events.  

Like ice crystals contracting on the center of a winter
window, the events around us can sometimes corner us
into waking up and taking action, perhaps leaving us with
only unpleasant options from which to chose.  Other times,
the choices aren't so tough.

Often we can feel when a decision we are making is one
whose import will be, or could become substantial in our 
lives.  

The question that arises? Do we wait until our hand is
forced, or seek to recognize the encroaching patterns,
and perhaps have better choices that later won't be
possible?  Likewise, in choosing early, have we missed
the chance at a better choice that hasn't yet appeared
to us?

Patterns.  Maybe part of happiness is having a choice at 
all, and another part is being able to live with the
choices once they are made.  Who knows.

tim

The truly slackful SubGenius always follows what currently appears to
be the path of least resistance.  In this way, one comes to know all that
is Dobbs.

    yes... the path of least resistance is where the current flows... go 
    with the flow and Dobbs will bob along beside you...

    
    Funny you should say that DC...  I think I'd put myself into that
    category.  Dobbs?  Help the naive by saying more?
    
    Yeah Tim, thanks for biting...  I enjoy reading your writing!
    
    Decisions?  It's my premise that most people are out of touch with
    nature, and the patterns around them, and therefore people's personas
    and decisions are more decidedly a factor of their upbringing and
    belief systems.  
    
    I've written about this separation of man from his natural surroundings
    in a song, but that's been my only source of relief from this
    frustration.
    
    Something practical out of all this?  When you are faced with a
    difficult problem to solve, and you run into the typical conventional
    brick walls of not having a solution, look to patterns in nature to
    help.  There have been billions of problems in wilderness that mother
    nature has provided her offspring with solutions to, and we must learn
    to abstract these solutions onto problems of our own.
    
    Man has survived and "prospered" yes, but only because of the
    artificial environment he has built up around himself (women too!).
    Other things in nature (plants especially) depend on nothing artificial
    to survive.  *They* are in tune!
    
    What are "decisions"?  Nothing more than abstracted assignments of
    applied logic.  But currently they are out of compliance of the laws of
    the natural world (because we can shelter ourselves from the
    ramifications)...  We need to fit ourselves back into the patterns we
    evolved from in order to maintain proper balance and continuity of
    life.
    
    Pretty bold huh?  I'm such a hypocrite though...  :^(
    
    Tree
    

    No you're not Tree... why do you say that?

I think it can be a problem to make decisions only, as you put
it, as abstracted assignments of applied logic.  I've done too
much logical thinking, sometimes in suppression of the heart.

Then I met John Ryan, and that changed, a little anyway.

Nature seems to provide the kind of natural order and disorder
to make things clearer, when I can take the time to take
advantage of it.  There's nothing orderly about the sound, and
smell of a walk on the beach - crashing white noise and brine
in the sinuses - but when I lived nearby, it was a favorite
place to sort things out.  Now, instead there is the woodlands
around my house where I can go...white noise of a stream and
the scent of the forest...no crickets yet. ;-)

Nature offers patterns amidst chaos, which for some reason seems
relaxing.  That helps me step beyond the logical decision, to
feel what's going on around me, and inside me too.

Order and chaos, yin and yang, logic and emotion...

Who the hell is Dobbs? :-)

tim

    Lao Tzu says that men have a consistent logic and women have a
    consistent behavior.. both together make The One.

re Dobbs ... see SPICE::GRATEFUL_OLD, topic 366

"You'll pay to know what you really think."

That John Ryan; he sure has a way of stirring the trub off the bottom of 
the tun, stimulating furthur fermentation and bringing out those rare 
flavors.  Watch out, though, sometime they can be off-flavors.  :-)

    saw John Ryan briefly over the weekend. He's just back from an
    interview in Washington DC, where the company he works for wanted him
    to move to, with NO increase in pay or benifits. I believe his answer
    was something like.."Now lemme get this straight, you want me to move
    to the murder capital of the nation, with no extra pay or added
    incentives? No mountains, no clear running streams... I don't think so.." 
    thier answer.."I don't balme you!" didn't get to talk long....
    
    rfb

Interesting indeed.  Perhaps that is why I spend as much time as possible
outside, especially in the winter, when man tends to really be reclusive
inside his home watching the TV.  Winter is such a nice time of the year - 
sometimes I have a difficult time trying to figure out why I like winter 
the most of any season (I can't name any of my friends who put winter as #1).
I think I know why - sort of a selfish reason - nobody else is out in the 
woods to share it with me except nature.  A real feeling of solitude.  Or,
perhaps it is my desire to be outdoors, even in the harshest of seasons,
enjoying the most basic things of life.

I once had a dream to earn enough money to buy a large farm outright in the
farm reaches of N.E. and retire to self-sufficiency....

    
  >  I once had a dream to earn enough money to buy a large farm outright in
  >  the farm reaches of N.E. and retire to self-sufficiency....
    
    
    You make it sound like past tense.  Sounds to me like that's a dream
    you want to keep hold of JC...  
    
    Thanks for the sentiment Mary, but I still believe that many of my
    actions are hypocritical...  Let me show how:
    
    Whenever I go camping, or walking through the woods, I get the same
    feeling JC illustrated in his last reply.  It's really a rejuvenating
    phenomena...  I feel healthier too.  Something about moving freely in
    nature, with unaltered climate interacting with my body, whether it be
    rain, sunshine, a cool breeze, the fragrance of the pines, whatever.
    Yet, that phenomena goes away when the "elements" get too natural. 
    When the positive feelings from nature are out weighed by the
    inconvenience of not having forced hot water heating in my tent, or a
    refrigerator to go to to get my lime for my mixed drink.
    
    This "seperation" exists in social interaction as well.  You don't need
    to look much further back than 100 short years ago, to a time when the 
    industrial revolution had not yet reaped full influence on the
    interaction of the family.  Before that, the whole family was needed
    for help on the farm, to work in the family business, to sell goods at
    the market.  Now, parents are divided from their children.  Why? 
    because their value systems tell them that material provisions are more
    important than healthy interactive relationships.  
    
    The television!  The electronic babysitter!  The social skills that
    this single device saps out of the human being is unmatched by any
    other invention in the history of man.  Yet it's role in our lives
    inevitably increases.  We are constantly evolving.  Our capacity to
    evolve is greater than any other species.  However, our evolution is
    not tied to nature.  We don't evolve (as much) physically as we once
    did.  We evolve mentally.  And this mental evolution is driving a stake
    between our source of life (nature and our planet, though debatable I
    suppose) and our future.  This division creates such a dependency on
    tools and artifacts that we have created that these tools become
    "nature" to us, and these tools enable us to to create even more
    sophisticated tools that harm real nature to a greater degree and
    increase our level of dependence even more!
    
    This is the paradox.  This is the downfall of man.  This is how the
    patterns I spoke of have crept into the evolution of the human, and how 
    the human's ignorance will inevitably make him a dinosaur.
    
    This is what I've been thinking.
    
    Treemon

LJOHUB::RILEY 
    
>    When the positive feelings from nature are out weighed by the
>    inconvenience of not having forced hot water heating in my tent, or a
>    refrigerator to go to to get my lime for my mixed drink.
    
     :-) .. the sun heats water too, Tree... and nothing cools a drink like
     a mountain stream...
    
>    This "seperation" exists in social interaction as well.  You don't need
>    to look much further back than 100 short years ago, to a time when the 
>    industrial revolution had not yet reaped full influence on the
>    interaction of the family.  Before that, the whole family was needed
>    for help on the farm, to work in the family business, to sell goods at
>    the market.  Now, parents are divided from their children.  Why? 
>    because their value systems tell them that material provisions are more
>    important than healthy interactive relationships.  
    
     Oh well... things change... 
        
>    The television!  The electronic babysitter!  The social skills that
>    this single device saps out of the human being is unmatched by any
>    other invention in the history of man.  Yet it's role in our lives
>    inevitably increases.  
    
     ... inevitably? :-)
    
    >We are constantly evolving.  Our capacity to
    >evolve is greater than any other species.  However, our evolution is
    >not tied to nature.  
    
    How can anything not be tied to nature?
    
    >We don't evolve (as much) physically as we once did.  We evolve mentally.  
    >And this mental evolution is driving a stake between our source of life 
    >(nature and our planet, though debatable I suppose) and our future.  
    
    We evolve... 
    I (personally) do not tend to make the kinds of separation that you see.  
    The choice to focus on the mental is a choice.
    
    >This division creates such a dependency on tools and artifacts that we 
    >have created that these tools become "nature" to us, and these tools 
    >enable us to to create even more sophisticated tools that harm real 
    >nature to a greater degree and increase our level of dependence even more!
    
    Oh... i dunno... nature is pretty resilent.... far more than we
    realize... it has a way of correcting itself.
        
>    This is the paradox.  This is the downfall of man.  This is how the
>    patterns I spoke of have crept into the evolution of the human, and how 
>    the human's ignorance will inevitably make him a dinosaur.
    
     The patterns (to me) are the fractals that together comprise the form
     of life... life always maintains a certain form... though the patterns
     may differ, the form is the same.  
    
     You appear to assume that there is a *human* control of the process... 
     that the process is dependent upon humanity... 
     ...it isn't though, Tree.  
    
     When humans venture outside of the patterns, then they are gone in the 
     void... in that space between what is and what isn't... 
     but humanity isn't a herd... all humans don't do the same things... 
     those who follow the Way will be ok .. just like always... although
     many of those who don't probably won't make it through these times.... 
     but Tree... this isn't anything new.. it's always been this way...
     same as it ever was... 

    
    >  Same as it ever was...
                                             
    True.  BUT, being fractal and all, I see the separation of man from
    nature to be happening at a faster and faster rate, this faster rate
    contributes to further and further separation...  It's an exponential
    correlation...  and THAT's what scares me.
    
    Like a paisley fractal, or a nautilus shell, or an architect's french
    curve template, the separation starts with subtlety and goes for a
    great length at a gradual curve.  Then some catalyst comes along and
    kicks the exponential factor in (industrial age?, settling of America?)
    and the separation function suddenly incorporates an exponential
    factor, and nothing can be done until it's too late.
    
    Extremist?
    
    Ethnocentric?
    
    Or just not founded in reality?  
    
    you decide....
    
    
    I agree though, nature is pretty resilient.  Perhaps this is just one
    more exponentiation in the tapestry though...  And perhaps I am
    overreacting. 
    
    treeeagain

	>Ethnocentric?
 
	I like calling naturacentric.....

	Ethnocentic seems to be more for the cultural
	perspectives....

	It's amazing how well nature bounces back from certain
	natural destructive powers....

	The ice age, volcanoes, whatever wiped out the dinosours,
	huge storms......

	It's also amazing how poorly nature will not bounce
	back after human interaction as compared to other
	items.....

	Are we really part of nature????? 
	


	   

Fractal geometry reminds me of the hints found in a game or puzzle 
that help you figure out how things work.  Neither the answer nor a
freak accident - they mean something, but it isn't clear what - yet.

I don't think we can help but be part of nature, one way or another.
What else is there, if we are not part of nature?  Marv's point is
well taken, though.  People have a hard time dealing with technology,
and technology itself is outrunning our capacity to deploy it properly,
effectively, humanely.

The more I learn to go with the flow around me, the easier it gets to
deal with what would otherwise seem to be a rather unnatural
environment.  I think it's workable, but it definitely needs more
work.

tim

re <<< Note 208.83 by LJOHUB::RILEY "Namer of chaotic individuals everywhere!" >>>

>    I agree though, nature is pretty resilient.  Perhaps this is just one
>    more exponentiation in the tapestry though...  And perhaps I am
>    overreacting. 
 

One day though, humandkind is going to push the edge of the envelope
too far and nature is _not_ going to bounce back.  i believe that i may see
this in my lifetime, and, i sort of envy my father, who is 61, who will
probably not see this in his lifetime.  I'll have to live with the shit we've
dumped into our ecosystem.  in a way, i'm sort of getting all i can now
for fear of not being able to take in nature in the future.  maybe, maybe not.
did you know that 1992 was one of the worse years for humankind disasters?
all those oil spills!  how much more with the earth takes before it barfs?
maybe all these voilent storms we've been having over the last 2 years is
a signal .. .... ...

LJOHUB::RILEY 
                                             
    I guess I just don't understand, Tree.  How do you define nature that
    you can exclude mankind from it?
    
>    and the separation function suddenly incorporates an exponential
>    factor, and nothing can be done until it's too late.
    
     ... "nothing can be done" ... "too late" ... so many limits, Tree...
    but nature doesn't recognize the limits that humanity sets upon
    itself...
    we think differently.. you and I... that's what it is.. we 'see' things
    differently.. doesn't matter though... if we didn't.. it wouldn't be
    the Tao... :-)

    Nature rebounding:
    
      I'm in (at least partial) agreement with JC on this. We talk about
    nature's uncanny ability to rebound from natural disasters.  Some
    examples were Ice Ages and volcanos.  The natural world has shown a
    resiliency that can only be termed remarkable.  The "problem" is that
    this healing takes hundreds and sometime thousands of years.  I am
    quite certain that manmade disasters are not necessarily part of the
    equation and nature's ability to heal itself from these attacks is
    uncertain at best.  In addition, I am alive NOW and I don't want to die
    wondering how long it will take for things to be right again.
    
      I also agree with JC about how he feels about his father and the
    future.  My son is 15 and as things now stand, I am very happy that I
    am not his age.  I am really frightened about the prospects for the
    future.  I don't think I would want to live in the world we will be
    leaving to him and his children.  Do I feel guilty about the trashing
    of the planet?  You bet!  Am I doing what I can to stop it?  Probably
    not enough.  
    
      Growing up I always had an interest in history as well as looking
    forward into the future.  I have changed.  I believe in the HERE AND
    NOW.  As far as nature rebounding, history doesn't mean a thing.  We
    have shifted the balance so far out of whack that we can no longer rely
    on the past to foresee our future world.  We have to fix things NOW or
    there won't be a bright future for anyone.
    
    Marv
    

    maybe i'm wierd but i can't imagine how anyone can say that nature will
    not recover from the works of man...
    
    as i see it, nature is the most powerful tangible force here on the
    planet...  it has always recovered before...  it will recover again...
    
    keep in mind, it will not be the same, but then it never was before
    either...  nature heals the earth after a volcano erupts, but the earth
    is not the same...  nature helped the earthe recover from whatever it
    was that killed the dinosaurs, but hte earth was not the same...  the
    planet will survive us and nature will be the healer once more...  of
    course, nature may eliminate the root cause of the problem as well...
    :^)
    
    i also can't agree with the "i wouldn't want to live in the world we
    are leaving for our kids" stuff either...  why?  it is a wonderful
    world for us, why wouldn't it be a wonderful world for them too???
    i believe we are stewards of the planet...  i agree that we have not
    done an especially good job taking care of it thus far, but this is the
    only world they will have to live in...  considering the choice is not
    to live at all, i'll take life thank you, with all it's flaws,
    hardships, etc...  the planet we got from our parents isn't the same
    one the got from thiers...  that ol' evolution thing again...
    
    sheeeeesh guys...  so many people are sounding so hopeless...  we're
    still involved in a dynamic process (life) in a dynamic environment
    (earth)...  anything can happen...  rather than look to the future with
    fear and loathing for all the bad stuff that we see, why not look
    towards the rising sun with hope and some conviction to make things
    better???? 
    
    who was it who said something to the effect of "so many people look to
    the future and say "why?"...  i look to the future and say "why
    not?"...  
    
    if a solution to a problem can be found and implemented in the short
    term, was there really a problem in the first place?  healing takes a 
    long time...  i don't believe that the ability to heal is
    diminishing...  i just don't think we know where to look for it, or
    that we've been looking long enough...
    
    					da ve

    Hey now da ve,
    
      I think its cool to be an optimist.
    
      If my underlying message got lost in the lament I'll simply distill
    it to this:
    
    	It is a mistake to rely on the earth to heal itself.  It is a
    mistake to believe in recovery.  It is also a mistake to count on
    things being better in the future.  We've screwed things up so much
    that the only thing we should reasonable rely on is US.  We are the
    ones who have to make things right.  If we don't do it NOW, it could be
    too late for those that follow to do it for us.
    
      Marv
    

re         <<< Note 208.89 by ROULET::DWEST "if wishes were horses..." >>>
                      -< ok, so i'm an optimist...  :^) >-

>    keep in mind, it will not be the same, but then it never was before
>    either...  nature heals the earth after a volcano erupts, but the earth
>    is not the same...  nature helped the earthe recover from whatever it
>    was that killed the dinosaurs, but hte earth was not the same...  the
>    planet will survive us and nature will be the healer once more...  of
>    course, nature may eliminate the root cause of the problem as well...

da ve, these are natural disasters though, which I reckon, are fundamentally
different then manmade disasters, such as oil spills, garbage, etc.  perhaps
nature was engineered to handle the natural disasters, but, the manmade
disasters might not be in nature's relm of recovery abilities.  so far, perhaps
yes, but, how much more will nature take before it barfs all over us?  

re: other comments not aimed at anyone in particular

i spent more then a score of years during the summer vacationing on the cape
in chatham.  we enjoyed the nice, clean, ocean water.  then, in '85 and '86,
i lived on the NJ shore...  the ocean down there is SICK !  at least near
point pleasant where I was (my adopted family's back yard was the ocean).
i remember weeks at a time when there would be bans prohibiting people from
swimming in the ocean due to pollution.  the beaches were gross too: tampon
applicators, six-pack rings, cans, bottles, styrofoam, etc.. all products
of man.  how long will it take before this kind of pollution litters the
clean beaches of chatham?  how long will take to convince man that beaches, etc
are slowly going down the toilet?


i am proud to say that deb and i, by my best estimate, recycle about 50% of
our trash...  we also attempt to limit the amount of potential trash by
watching what we buy: for instance, we don't put each f'n vegetable in a
plastic bag to bring home!  instead, we bring 'em home w/o a plastic bag
and use the _recycled_many_times_over_ plastic bags we have in stock.  i watch
people at the store walk out with just hoards of shit they DO NOT need!  
when i visit other folks' houses, i rarely see evidence of
the level of recycling we do - don't tell me your town doesn't have it
either - recyling is everywhere now - a lot of times it boils down to
laziness... or, just a selfish attitude about doing one's part in attempting
to live better w/ nature.

> instead, we bring 'em home w/o a plastic bag
> and use the _recycled_many_times_over_ plastic bags we have in stock.  i watch
> people at the store walk out with just hoards of shit they DO NOT need!  
> when i visit other folks' houses, i rarely see evidence of
> the level of recycling we do - don't tell me your town doesn't have it
> either - recyling is everywhere now - a lot of times it boils down to
> laziness... or, just a selfish attitude about doing one's part in attempting
> to live better w/ nature.

To all these people, I say PAY ATTENTION, DAMMIT:  
REDUCE, REUSE, and then recycle.

The more reduction and reuse there is, there's less need for recycling.  
Recycling takes energy and resources....The more reduction, the less need
for reuse.  The more reuse, the less need for recycling.  The less
recycling the less trash...It's a chain...

Unfortunately, the reduce and reuse part takes the biggest change
in attitude (change away from the "I want a *new* one." and the
"I want enough, so I'd better take too much"), that some people
are just too lazy and selfish to do.

Dave (far from perfect, but doing pretty well at this).

	I'm with you guys too. We all should recycle and try to reuse and
	reduce.  Not enough people do, yet. Consider the following for
	Earth Day 1993:
	
	Earth Day events in 1993 will focus on sharing ways in which we
	can work more sustainably with the Earth, while honoring its
	Indigenous People. Earth Day USA and the Seventh Generation Fund
	have developed a personal pledge with the hope that everyone will
	take time to seriously contemplate the Earth.
	
	Feel free to print and sign this pledge, and have others do so.
	Keep a copy as a reminder and send the original signed pledge to
	either:
	
	Seventh Generation Fund			Earth Day USA
	P.O. Box 2550				P.O. Box 470
	McKinleyville,  CA  95521		Peterborough,  NH  03458
	
	The signed copies will be presented to a convocation of elders.
	

	 			     ===*===
	
				  Pledge to the
			       Seventh Generation
				    and the 
				Earth's Environment
	
	I pledge  to review my lifestyle, and consider the habits
	  and ways in  which  I may cause undue harm to the Earth
	  and to the children of the Seventh Generation to come.
	
	I pledge to renegotiate my  relationship  with  the Earth
	  during the year 1993.
	
	I pledge that in my every  deliberation,  I will consider
	  the impact on the Seveth Generation.
	
	
	  ____________________________________________
	  Signed
	
	
	  _______________________
	  Date
	
	
	
				     ===*===
	
	"In our way of life ... with every decision we make, we always
	keep in mind the Seventh Generation to come ...
	
	When we walk upon Mother Earth, we always plant our feet
	carefully, because we know that the faces of our future
	generations are looking up at us from beneath the ground.
	
	We never forget them."
	
			- Oren Lyons, Faithkeeper of the Onondaga
	
	Earth Day is Thursday, April 22nd.
	
	More info on Earth Day and its planned events can be obtained by
	calling Earth Day USA at (603) 924-7720.
	
	I have no financial connection with Earth Day USA and post this
	for your information.
	
	Jay

I'M NEW AND I DON'T KNOW if anyone will read this but,
you people are great!! I think I started off on the wrong foot
(see topic 538)but it is so nice to read from people with the
same thought process as I. I love you all and I will remember
what I have learned/shared in this conference!!!
For every positive action there is a equally positive reaction
we all have to really want it though.
Chris =)
[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

    glad we all came to a consensus,of sorts....%^)
    
    rfb_who needs to spend less time in here

	Hi Chris - just wanted to say welcome in response to your
	note here...the timing is so perfect for me to go back thru
	this old note - just saw the Treeman himself out in Seattle
	a couple days ago - SYNCHRONICITY!!

	Debess