Conference rdvax::grateful

re:  -< Dead welcomed back to Autzen Stadium -- maybe >-

>Several cities have banned the group, and at least three fans have died 
>violently outside concert halls in the past two years.  

Boy, doesn't that make us look good 8-(.  Anyways, I'm glad we can go
back to Eugene - I love that place!!

peace,
t!ng

and my wife and I are applying for jobs in Oregon at this very moment!!!!!
I love it.


  john

>Several cities have banned the group, and at least three fans have died 
>violently outside concert halls in the past two years.  

Boy, the nerve of fans dying violently outside concert halls.  Who do they
think they are anyway?

		Dave

    Yea... no kidding!!
    
    As if it were the bands fault or the kids fault that security (or
    whom ever) murdered them.
    
    Just say "no" to death... or is it "please, don't murder me".

�  Just say "no" to death...

  ;-)

You can say what you want but the evidence is pretty strong that some 
not-so-nice things are happening around Dead concerts - three deaths, lots
of drug use (and likely some driving under the influence), massive littering,
huge numbers of people who show up without tickets and destruction of property.
While there is much talk of leave-only-footprints, respect-other-people's-
property and love-one-another, I think that it is only appropriate that 
steps are being taken to better manage the crowds that the Dead draw.

Jim (who realizes that he is probably in a minority on this)

Note 148.6        
E::EVANS                                             

    In case you haven't noticed... evidence is pretty strong that
    some not-so-nice things are happening everywhere in our society
    today.
    
    Certainly no one objects to crowd control... but let us not forget
    that the Deadheads are not a violent crowd and that there is as
    much if not more trouble at sporting events than at Dead concerts
    ... in my opinion anyway.
    
    The three deaths were not the choice of the victims who died, you know?
    Drug use is a way of life for many Americans... like it or not. 
    Especially those who came of age in the sixties.  Littering is largely
    a result of so many people and not enough trash containers... a problem
    that authorities could easily avoid if they wanted to.  
    
    People who show up without tickets (even though it isn't something
    I would do nor recommend) are being drawn to the energy.  They are
    pests perhaps but hardy an earth shaking problem (again in my opinion).
    
    I don't have a problem with crowd control.  I just want to see this 
    kept in perspective.  In the police state attitude our society seems
    to have gravitated towards... it doesn't take much to trigger problems
    .. the way a person looks, the way they dress, the music they like to
    hear.. to some who buy into the propaganda of the Regean years, these
    things translate to 'druggies have no rights'.  It doesn't take much
    to push a situation over that thin blue line, you know?
    
    mary

re:  <<< Note 148.7 by HKFINN::STANLEY "What a long strange trip it's been..." >>>

>    Especially those who came of age in the sixties.  Littering is largely
>    a result of so many people and not enough trash containers... a problem
>    that authorities could easily avoid if they wanted to.  
    
  
 Mary,

 I agree with what your saying except for this point. Just because there
are not enough containers, it doesn't justify littering. If you toss
something on the ground because you can't find a barrel your still in 
the wrong. I have heard people say "Well I don't usually litter but there 
isn't any barrels around." Kinda hypocritical, wouldn't you say.
At Foxboro last year, while stuck in traffic I saw plenty of people 
tossing sh!t out of their cars. Leave it in the car I say. Just because
you don't want your personal space messed up is no reason to mess up the
world. 

 What is the point of this note, I'm not sure. But IMO *WE* as a group
need to take some responsiblity and not just expect the authorities
to do it entirely for us. 

Shawn

    Of course Shawn... no one condones littering.  But on the other hand,
    if one is expecting several thousand guests, than one should reasonably
    prepare... don't you think?
    
    mary

    Mary, somewhat true about being prepared but don't wait for someone
    else to do it for you, do it yourself (period). 
    
    Chris

    Period?  
    
    No Chris... comma, exclamation point, but not period.
    
    No one said anything about "waiting for someone else to do it for you".
    Individuals are not the only ones who have responsibility in a modern
    society.  Government... both local and national.. also have a
    responsibility for how things go.  Either we work together or things
    don't work.  Now if you want to have many thousand people in a confined
    area then you make the proper arrangements for them instead of ignoring
    the situation and the obvious ramifications and then blaming them for
    it afterwards.  Thats only common sense.
    
    mary

Note 148.7      
HKFINN::STANLEY                                           

>    In case you haven't noticed... evidence is pretty strong that
>    some not-so-nice things are happening everywhere in our society
>    today.

I will tell you what I have personally noticed.  In the last three years, the
worst cases of littering I have seen have been at Dead shows.  The worst cases
of drug abuse I have seen have been at Dead shows (people zonked out laying
on the ground).  The worst case of destruction of property that I have seen 
was at a Dead show.  Yes, I have watched TV and seen worse, but in my personal
experience I have not liked all that I have seen in the scene around the Dead
shows.  You may run in different circles.
    
>    Certainly no one objects to crowd control... but let us not forget
>    that the Deadheads are not a violent crowd and that there is as
>    much if not more trouble at sporting events than at Dead concerts
>    ... in my opinion anyway.

I have not heard of *any* deaths at *any* sports events in the U.S.  The 
Deadheads may not be a violent crowd, but three separate deaths seem a bit
more than coincidence.  *Some* violent 
    
>    The three deaths were not the choice of the victims who died, you know?

Few people want to go out and get themselves killed.  However, some groups
of people do things that greatly increase their chances of an untimely death.
Involvement in drugs is one.

>    Drug use is a way of life for many Americans... like it or not.
>    Especially those who came of age in the sixties. 

Whether we like it or not, there have been groups of people who have done a
number of less-than-nice things over the years ... drinking and driving, 
violence against women, discrimination.  Someone may drink enough to effect
their driving yet be .01 within the legal limits, someone may create music
videos that show women being victims and still be within the the realm of
society's current standards, You can pretty much discriminate against women,
blacks, native Americans, Deadheads and religious minorities without much fear
of anything happening to you ...  like it or not.

>    Littering is largely
>    a result of so many people and not enough trash containers... a problem
>    that authorities could easily avoid if they wanted to.

Someone not having a container near my hand has never been an excuse for 
littering. 
    
>    People who show up without tickets (even though it isn't something
>    I would do nor recommend) are being drawn to the energy.  They are
>    pests perhaps but hardy an earth shaking problem (again in my opinion).

I agree it's not an earth shaking problem, but I would agree that they are
pests.
    
>    I don't have a problem with crowd control.  I just want to see this 
>    kept in perspective.  In the police state attitude our society seems
>    to have gravitated towards... it doesn't take much to trigger problems
>    .. the way a person looks, the way they dress, the music they like to
>    hear.. to some who buy into the propaganda of the Regean years, these
>    things translate to 'druggies have no rights'.  It doesn't take much
>    to push a situation over that thin blue line, you know?

To go from crowd control to a "druggies have no rights" is quite a leap.  
I would like to point out that "druggies" have no *special* rights.  They 
do have the rights granted to all citizens, no more.  Of course you are right
that it doesn't take much to "push a situation over that thin blue line".  But
in most cases, it isn't the police who are doing the pushing.  When you have
large numbers of people openly breaking the drug laws, when you have people
urinating on peoples lawns and destroying property, it seems that it may be
the Deadheads who are doing much of the pushing.  Whether they like it or not,
Deadheads are a part of a larger society and a Dead concert is not a "free
zone" to withdraw from that society.

I guess what I am coming toward here is that I am not proud to be associated 
with the Dead scene anymore.  There is just too much that conflicts with my
values.   In fact, I don't talk about it much anymore to anyone who is not a 
known Deadhead.  I enjoy the music.  I enjoy reading set lists.  I'm looking
forward to the releases from the vault.... but as I said before there are some
things here that are not-so-nice.

Jim (who respects and understands that others have differing opinions on this)

Mary,

  I agree they should be prepared. To go back to Foxboro as an example
they prepared fro what the stadium would hold not the extra 40 thousand
extra that showed. Same goes for other venues. It's hard to tell how 
well things are prepared when more than should be there end up there.

Shawn

Note 148.12       
E::EVANS                                             
    
    Have you ever been to a political convention?  Or most any convention for
    that matter?  Is there littering at the Super Bowl? .. At Spring Break?
    
    What do you mean by "the worst cases of drug abuse"?  Did you see
    heroin addicts robbing people to get their fix?  Saying "worst cases"
    really implies some serious drug activity, one would think... 
    People zonked out laying on the ground was not all that an unusual sight 
    in my college days so perhaps you've led a more sheltered life than I have.
    
    What was the "worst case of destruction of property" that you saw at
    a Dead show?  Just curious..  someone blow up a neighborhood or
    something like in Philly?
    
    >Yes, I have watched TV and seen worse, but in my personal experience 
    >I have not liked all that I have seen in the scene around the Dead
    >shows.  You may run in different circles.
    
    Alas... it's not a perfect world, you know?  You may never find a scene
    in which you like all that you see... and then again you may... who
    cares.
    
>I have not heard of *any* deaths at *any* sports events in the U.S.  The 
>Deadheads may not be a violent crowd, but three separate deaths seem a bit
>more than coincidence.  *Some* violent 
    
    Perhaps three separate deaths are indeed more than a coincidence.  
    Perhaps the War on Drugs has created an atmosphere in this country 
    where those who are different are considered to be "fair game".
    Unless of course, you have some reason to blame the victim of a murder
    for being at fault ... for being "violent".  Do you suppose that the
    LAPD beating victim was also at fault for being black?  They claimed
    that he was violent too, didn't they?  But we all saw the video.
    
>Few people want to go out and get themselves killed.  However, some groups
>of people do things that greatly increase their chances of an untimely death.
>Involvement in drugs is one.

    Involvement in life is another.  Living in a city is another.  Driving
    on a freeway is another.  Flying in an airplane is another.
    Would you have us live in a plastic container... just to be safe
    from those who we pay to protect us?
    
    
>Whether we like it or not, there have been groups of people who have done a
>number of less-than-nice things over the years ... drinking and driving, 
>violence against women, discrimination.  Someone may drink enough to effect
>their driving yet be .01 within the legal limits, someone may create music
>videos that show women being victims and still be within the the realm of
>society's current standards, You can pretty much discriminate against women,
>blacks, native Americans, Deadheads and religious minorities without much fear
>of anything happening to you ...  like it or not.

    You are quite wrong.  One may THINK that one can pretty much
    discriminate against others without anything happening to you... and
    one may even live one's life that way... but life is a very strange
    thing, you know?  Much stranger than you can possibly imagine.
    There are forces at work in this world of men that are impossibly
    powerful and absolutely incredible.
    
    Think not that your victims lie powerless against you... they do not.
    
    
>Someone not having a container near my hand has never been an excuse for 
>littering. 
    
    No one is offering excuses.
    
>To go from crowd control to a "druggies have no rights" is quite a leap.  
>I would like to point out that "druggies" have no *special* rights.  They 
>do have the rights granted to all citizens, no more.  Of course you are right
>that it doesn't take much to "push a situation over that thin blue line".  But
>in most cases, it isn't the police who are doing the pushing.  When you have
>large numbers of people openly breaking the drug laws, when you have people
>urinating on peoples lawns and destroying property, it seems that it may be
>the Deadheads who are doing much of the pushing.  Whether they like it or not,
>Deadheads are a part of a larger society and a Dead concert is not a "free
>zone" to withdraw from that society.

    Au contraire... in most cases it is the police who are doing the
    pushing.  Further ... society is not a collection of little brown eggs
    all in a row.  It is a collective agreement of a diverse group of
    people to tolerate each other's differences and respect each other's
    rights.
    
>I guess what I am coming toward here is that I am not proud to be associated 
>with the Dead scene anymore.  There is just too much that conflicts with my
>values.   In fact, I don't talk about it much anymore to anyone who is not a 
>known Deadhead.  I enjoy the music.  I enjoy reading set lists.  I'm looking
>forward to the releases from the vault.... but as I said before there are some
>things here that are not-so-nice.

    Then leave it... it's a free country, you know?
    
    No one holds a gun to your head and forces you to go.
    
    Do what you want... thats what people do anyway.  We all have to
    respect our own personal values.
    
    Mary (who respects Jim's opinions although disagreeing with them)

  Ah come on Mary be fair, equating the spaced out people I have seen laying 
around a dead show with the space cadets at a college lawn is a pretty far
stretch.  I wish someone would address the differences they have seen between 
the 70's shows and the recent ones.  I've seen so few outside Oregon  (read one)
that I can't say, but I get the feeling that it is getting worse in terms of
trash and courtesy.  I do think it is size of crowds and I agree with you that
it is a societal problem more than a Deadhead problem.

  Jim, is it only worse at Dead shows for you? or do you feel it is worse
everwhere and you had hoped the Deadheads  would rise above it all?  I don't 
go to many rock concerts, but my understanding is that violence, and trashing
and all sorts of undesirable behavior is up everywhere.

  I hope they go back to Eugene, I would encourage everyone to try to make a 
show there.  I believe they play well there and I believe they are as welcome 
by that community as any except maybe Teluride.

  john   

re:  <<< Note 148.12 by E::EVANS >>>

>I will tell you what I have personally noticed.  In the last three years, the
>worst cases of littering I have seen have been at Dead shows.  The worst cases
>of drug abuse I have seen have been at Dead shows (people zonked out laying
>on the ground).  The worst case of destruction of property that I have seen 
>was at a Dead show.  Yes, I have watched TV and seen worse, but in my personal
>experience I have not liked all that I have seen in the scene around the Dead
>shows.  You may run in different circles.
    
Jim, I'm not sure which shows you've been to that you've had such horrible
experiences.  I can't believe people litter any more at Dead shows than at
a sports event.  I don't know what you mean by worst cases of drug abuse.
Do you actually see people taking drugs and as a result get zonked out by
it or do you just see people lying down and assume they're lying down 
because they're so out that they just can't deal??  I mean, people might
also lie down because they may feel like resting, but they don't have to 
drugged out to feel tired (just dancing can do that to you).  What kind of
"destruction of property" have you seen??  Do Deadheads set their hotel
rooms on fire??  I don't remember ever seeing open destruction of property
in the last 9 years and 200+ shows.  What kind of circle do you hang around
in??

>I have not heard of *any* deaths at *any* sports events in the U.S.  The 
>Deadheads may not be a violent crowd, but three separate deaths seem a bit
>more than coincidence.  *Some* violent 

Just because you've never heard of any deaths at a sports event doesn't
mean there weren't any.  I mean, newspapers would jump to publicize a
death associated with the Grateful Dead, but they wouldn't run headlines
that say "L.A. Raiders fan on vodka crashed and killed pregnant woman on
the way back from a game".  By the way, 2 of those deaths you're talking
about are *alleged* to be the handiwork of the Brendan Byrne security and
the now infamous LAPD.  Don't blame it on the scene.  Blame it on society's
reaction to the scene.  If people don't have such a stereotype of Deadheads,
then maybe some of these things won't happen (action = reaction).

peace,
t!ng

Note 148.15       
OURGNG::RYAN 
    
>  Ah come on Mary be fair, equating the spaced out people I have seen laying 
>around a dead show with the space cadets at a college lawn is a pretty far
>stretch.  
    
    Ever been to a frat party back in your youth, john?  Spaced out people
    laying around a dead show compare pretty well with the guys puking 
    their guts out of windows. :-)  
    Ah youth.... thank god it's over.. :-)

    Ther were 8 reported deaths, and millions of dollars in property
    damages all in ***one night** in tyegh city of Detroit during the
    "celebration" after  the Pistons won the ??? (NBA Champ[ionship?)
    last year.
    
    Jim,.. you should go to a hockey game. I have yet to attend a hockey
    game where there has not been at least two people thrown out for
    fighting,.. and I'm not talkiong about the players. People in the
    stands get pretty !@#$%^&*( violent. More violent thn any experiences
    I have from my 100 or so dead shows.
    
    The trash problems are two sided. The heads should
    and could have a bit more respect,.. and the authorities couls provide
    more receptacles. I think everybody is at fault there.
    
    Regarding general rowdiness and crowd control tactics. It is always
    difficult to tell how things get started. Its uisually some small
    misunderstanding that gets blown way out of proportion, snowballs into
    something much bigger (and stuider) than anyone who is involved can
    realize. I think in general that the heads are generally pretty well
    behaved,,... and that the authorities are often creating bad
    circumstances in which bad situations are bound to arise. WHose fault?
    I don't know. But it takes two to tango,.. and I feel that the cops
    are generally abrasive and antagonistic towards the heads these days.
    Much more so than say ten years ago. Of course, ten years ago,
    you could go to the venue the night of the show and still buy a
    ticket. The magnitude (ie the sheer numbers of people) following the
    band has really increased beyond the capaacity of most normal ways
    of dealin with a crowd. The dead crowd is a much bigger corwd than 
    most,.. and presents new and diffcult problems to the organizers. They
    in trun are not properly prepared for corwds of this size, and in lots
    of cases there is no way they could be prepared (Foxboro 90, 40,000
    extra ticketless heads showing up,. like who could be prepared for
    that?),.. and not being properly prepared means that bad situations are
    likely to arise. And when the bad situation finally arises,.. whose
    fault is it?
    
    	I guess its ultimately the band's fault for being so damned good
    :-)
    
    	Actually,.. its the record industries fault for promoting nothing
    but materialistic egocentric bullshit artists like Sinead O'Connor
    (many :-)'s here folks,,... its a joke OK?) and starving us poor
    humans for something meaningfuk in terms of musical entertainment.
    I mean, where are the Bob Dylans of the 90's? Who do we have making
    music today that even has the chance to really stretch out and make an
    album like,m.,.. say,.. Blues for Allah? or Aoxamaoxa (sp?)? The sad
    truth is that the record industry is so bottom line oriented these days
    that the artists are being forced to produce mindless trash that sells
    rather than meaningful soulful risky possibly not too well selling
    stuff. The dead's albums were never successful (until recently) when
    they were made,.. but they were made anyway because the band would not
    forsake their values to make a buck. Not many people are willing to
    live or die by their values like that. Money corrupts too. 
    
    	So the lack of meaningful music leaves us all flocking to the one
    band that has (debatably) never sold out to the record industry. If
    only some more progressive music was playing around,.. maybe we'd find
    out that all 100,000 of us don't need to go to Foxboro,.. maybe a few
    tens of thousands of us could go see some other band....
    
    	Oh well,.. Bottom linme for me here folks is that for whatever
    reasons,.. I share in Jims bottom line staement that he is ashamed to
    be associated with the scene anymore. Unlike Jim, I;m noit willing to
    lambaste the heads as the soul cause of the problems. Unlike Mary, I
    am alos not willing to lay complete blame at the feet of the
    authorities. We're in it together, anbd we're all responsible. The
    band, the fans, the authorities, and to some extent, the short sighted
    money hungry record industry.
    
    							/
    

    
>Jim, I'm not sure which shows you've been to that you've had such horrible
>experiences.  I can't believe people litter any more at Dead shows than at
>a sports event. 

For example, I went to 15-20 games last year at Fenway Park.  Yes, there is 
litter, but nothing like what I see at Dead shows.  This is just a personal
observation. 

>I don't know what you mean by worst cases of drug abuse.
>Do you actually see people taking drugs and as a result get zonked out by
>it or do you just see people lying down and assume they're lying down 
>because they're so out that they just can't deal?? 

In my day-to-day life I don't see people on drugs.  At the last couple of Dead
shows at Foxboro I have seen people being helped by attendants were were 
pretty clearly not conscious of what was going on around them.  I doubt if they
had the flu.  These folks were definately not taking a nap.  Maybe you see 
lots of people who are wasted on drugs.  I don't.  Maybe this is something you
see all the time at the events you go to.  I don't and I don't think it reflects
well on the scene.

>I mean, people might
>also lie down because they may feel like resting, but they don't have to 
>drugged out to feel tired (just dancing can do that to you).

Are you suggesting that these people I have seen at Dead shows were just 
resting?  This sounds like the Monty Python skit with the dead bird on the TV
that someone is suggesting is just asleep.  Am I alone in seeing people at Dead 
shows that are well beyond the state of mild drug intoxication?

>  What kind of
>"destruction of property" have you seen??  Do Deadheads set their hotel
>rooms on fire??  I don't remember ever seeing open destruction of property
>in the last 9 years and 200+ shows.  

Climbing over and knocking down fences.  At Foxboro, most of the portable 
toilets on the field looked to be pretty damaged by people climbing up on
top of them and having the tops cave in.  Granted this only amounts to maybe
a few thousands of dollars, but I don't see this at other events I go to.
Maybe you are used to seeing a lot more stuffed trashed in your community and
in the places you go that I do.

>What kind of circle do you hang around in??

I guess you might call it middle class suburbia.  None of my friends go on tour.
I work as a professional in a high-tech company.  Most of my friends are more
concerned about the quality of our schools than anything else right now.  I have
two small kids who I hope will at least have the opportunity to make it through 
adolesence without being pressured into taking drugs.  I own no tie-died clothes
but have a friend who does.  I made my first Dead concert tape in 1974 and 
remember vividly the day Pigpen died.  I do not consider myself a Deadhead and
I love the music of the Dead.

That said, don't get me wrong, I don't think that Dead shows are destructive
riots with rampant trashing of everything in sight.  That isn't true.  From my
personal observations however, the Dead concert scene is far from a loving 
Utopia.

Jim

    Jim
    
    	In my mind, ther is no doubt that Foxboro was the worst scene I
    have ever experienced at a dead show. IUf thats the only shopw you've
    been to in recent memory, I don't blame you for feeling the way you do.
    
    	But it is not representative of the entire dead scene. I feel its
    more representative of what can happen when you bring 100,000 people
    into a spcae intended for 60,000,.. which was less than properly
    prepared for 60,000 anyway.
    
    	PEACE
    
    							/
    

RE.  Mary

  I was one of those puking frat rats, and believe I found a better way when
leaving that to join the Deadheads at shows, but I have never seen people as 
so "out of it" as the very small minority of out of it souls that Jim is 
referring to.  Of course I haven't been around the herion addicts you speak
of, but I haven't seen them at big events.

  I'm with /, darn it ;-), there is room for improvement and there should be a
consciousness, but other than security guards beating up people, I've seen 
much much worse violence at sporting events and other concerts.  Almost all
Deadheads I know are pretty mellow and clean and not inclined to littering 
and negative scenes.

  john

re:  <<< Note 148.19 by E::EVANS >>>

>Are you suggesting that these people I have seen at Dead shows were just 
>resting?  This sounds like the Monty Python skit with the dead bird on the TV
>that someone is suggesting is just asleep.  Am I alone in seeing people at Dead 
>shows that are well beyond the state of mild drug intoxication?

Well, I like to lie down during set breaks sometimes.  I sure hope people don't
go around thinking I'm lying down because I couldn't deal.  And no, I *do*
see people at Dead shows sometimes that are well beyond the state of mild
drug intoxication just as often as I see folks coming out of sporting events
who are well beyond the state of mild intoxication.

>Climbing over and knocking down fences.  At Foxboro, most of the portable 
>toilets on the field looked to be pretty damaged by people climbing up on
>top of them and having the tops cave in.  Granted this only amounts to maybe
>a few thousands of dollars, but I don't see this at other events I go to.
>Maybe you are used to seeing a lot more stuffed trashed in your community and
>in the places you go that I do.

I was at the Foxboro show, but I guess I missed that part of it.  Some of us
must be blessed.  No, I don't see a lot more stuff trashed in my community
than you do.  On the other hand, I probably see a lot less than you do (I
assume you live in the east coast though).  I used to live in Boston, and I
just remember the level of squalor being a lot more intense than anywhere
I've seen in the Bay Area.  I *do* however remember not really enjoying
the crowd around me on the floor at Foxboro.  It was definitely quite a
different scene from West Coast shows, where people seem to respect your
space more.

>I guess you might call it middle class suburbia.  None of my friends go on tour.
>I work as a professional in a high-tech company. 

Oh, yes, Jim, I forgot to tell you that I'm not a professional at a high-tech
company (I have no idea how I got access to this notesfile) and that the only
thing I do is follow the Dead around the country and live off the money I make
from selling honey, peanut-butter, and banana sandwiches.  Those honey, peanut-
butter, and banana sandwiches may be the only reason why I can afford to live
on a 60-acre ranch in La Honda.

>Most of my friends are more concerned about the quality of our schools than
>anything else right now.  

Oh, yes, Jim, I'm definitely not concerned about the quality of our schools,
I really don't give a flying f#$@ if my kids don't have the level of education
that I had.  All I want is that they follow the Dead around the country with
me selling honey, peanut-butter, and banana sandwiches.

>I have two small kids who I hope will at least have the opportunity to make
it through adolesence without being pressured into taking drugs.

I hope your kids will too.  Just don't take them to a Dead concert, then you
*know* they'll never be pressured by those long-haired tie-dyed hippies into
taking drugs.

>I made my first Dead concert tape in 1974 and remember vividly the day Pigpen
>died.  

Pigpen died in 1973.

>That said, don't get me wrong, I don't think that Dead shows are destructive
>riots with rampant trashing of everything in sight.

Ok, maybe I'm getting you wrong, but you certainly come across as if you think
Dead shows are destructive riots with rampant trashing of everything in sight.
I guess I hate blatant stereotyping more than anything else (especially when
it comes to the Dead scene), so forgive me if I can't see how you're *not*
thinking that Dead shows are destructive riots with rampant trashing of
everything in sight with some of the statements you've made or have implied.

ciao,
t!ng

    DOES ANYONE REMBER DYLANS ROLLING THUNDER REVIEW TOUR
    this is what the dead need to due for at least a year

    also you can not compare crowds in my imo west coast to east
    more shows on west coast imo so crowd is not as intence 
    or ticket problems  because of so few shows in northeast
    this causes more people to show up without tickets
    also booze is more of east coast problem don,t know why
    imo i do not beleive trash is that big of a problem than any
    other event sports or rock

Is it just me, or do people seem to be getting a little testy in here? I think 
I burned my fingers on the keyboard after the last few notes.

Jim,  I have definitely see alot of what you have seen. However I have also 
heard of many people getting killed injured and obnoxiously wasted drunk at 
sporting events (yes even the Red Sox)

There are People everywhere at all events and in all places who don't know how 
to handle themselves. And the minority always ruins it for the majority.

Ting, I think you were a little heavy-handed. I don't think Jim is trying to 
stereotype anyone, I think his experience has been limited though. When he was 
talking about where he lives and schools he was answering a question. I didn't 
get the impression that he thought any of us were less important or cared less 
about our children than he did. He was just telling us how it is in his 
reality.

I thought people were supposed to get less stressed after the shows came 
through town.  Maybe rumors of layoffs have everyone on edge. 

I'll stop rambling now. After one more thing that is...





		LIGHTEN UP EVERYONE, LIFE IS TOO SHORT

Geoff

	>>	LIGHTEN UP EVERYONE, LIFE IS TOO SHORT         <<

Amen brother!!!!


I sat in the bleachers for just about every weekend home Red Sox game last year 
and will be again this year.  Every Saturday I see fist fights, drunks, litter, 
large crowds, and drug use (basically just people smoking pot).  It generally 
doesn't affect my time, but it there and it's obvious.  In fact, if anyone is 
going to opening day at Fenway (or probobly any other major league park) next 
week you'll see a pretty chaotic scene with lots of the above.  I've been to 2 
Dead shows (MSG and Albany) so my experience is limited but the scene was pretty
comparable except for the fights (didn't see any at the Dead showz).  Put that 
many diverse people in one place and I think you're gonna get a less-than-
"perfect" scene, it's just a matter of what you see and how it affects you 
(and how you affect it).

Just my $.02

Scott

    I don't think Ting was heavy handed, Geoff... and thanks for dinner
    last night, the fondue was fantastic. :-)
    
    
    I think that our society REALLY over-reacts to just about everything.
    Further... this drug scare business is a lot of bull ... again in my
    own humble opinion.  Drug laws and attempts to control drug use cause
    more problems than drugs themselves in my opinion.
    
    Jim talks about his kids... well I've raised two sons.. they are 20 and
    21 now.  Both have attended Dead shows for a long time and both are
    fine, intelligent men.  Jay made the Deans List last semester.
    They recognize trouble and they know how to avoid it.  They learn from
    the guys crashed out on the street... they know better than to allow
    themselves to be that vulnerable.  Life is getting more complex, more
    complicated, more chaotic... not less... and survival skills give one an
    edge.
    
    If drugs were eliminated from the entire world, ... would that
    guarantee that Jim's kids would never have a problem?  Not by a long
    shot.  Could Jim raise his kids in the worst drug infested neighborhood
    in the worst city in the world and have them still turn out ok? 
    Certainly!  If he does it right..
    
    mary

    Gee Geoff, I was gonna say about what you said.  T!ng ... I've never
    seen you so steamed, and it kinda surprises me.  I don't think Jim was
    trying to stereotype anybody.  I kinda agree with some of what he said,
    though not to the degree that he does.  On the other hand, Jim, I think
    you're using an awfully wide brush when you paint your picture of the
    scene at Dead shows.  And a lot of what you say doesn't apply to the vast
    majority of the people attending those shows.
    
    It's very difficult to not see the things you mentioned.  But keep
    in mind that it's not the majority of heads that are acting that way. 
    Sure drugs are a part of the scene, but I think the vast majority of
    the folks taking drugs at a concert are handling their drugs much
    better (in terms of their behavior) than the majority of folks who,
    say, go to a Patriots or Bruins game and guzzle beer.  It's easy to go
    anywhere where there's a large crowd of people and find examples of
    poor behavior.  Nobody ever said that Deadheads were angels ... we're
    just as human and diverse as any other crowd of people.  But we're not
    all a bunch of destructive animals either.  Some of your statements do
    come across like you think we are, even though I don't think you meant
    them to.
    
    In reply .6 you seem to discredit the behavior of heads who talk about
    "leave-only-footprints", "respect-other-people's-property" and
    "love-one-another".  For my part, I tend to see more of this type than
    the ones who behave destructively.  If you were in Albany you would
    have seen plenty of people walking around with trash bags picking up
    after, not only themselves, but others as well.  You would have seen
    posters all over the place asking people to "respect Albany, they
    respect us".  You would have seen lots of cooperation between heads and
    police (I saw some police who looked like they were enjoying the
    scene).  You would have seen lots of people having a good time going
    things that are perfectly legal and non-destructive.  So ya gotta 
    balance the bad against the good.
    
    In reply .12 you note that "the worst case of littering I've ever seen
    have been at Dead shows".  I ask you, have you ever attended a July 4th
    concert at the Hatch shell?  Or one of the celebrations at City Hall
    when the Celtics won the NBA championship?  You wanna talk about
    litter.  It's a fact of life that crowds produce litter.  And frankly,
    I've not been anywhere where some Joe Average in the crowd walks around
    with a trash bag making a personal attempt to do something about it ...
    except at Dead shows.  So although your point is valid, there's another
    side that has to be looked at too if you wanna be fair about it.
    
    In the same reply, you talk about drug abuse and property destruction. 
    I think these things are not unique to Dead shows ... perhaps the
    reason you don't see these things elsewhere is that you don't go to
    other concerts where the crowd is as large as at Dead shows.  I don't
    think, for example, that there's any less use of drugs at a Rolling
    Stones concert than at a Dead show.  And if you want to include alcohol
    as a drug, I think the average hockey fan will consume more drugs than
    your average deadhead.  So it's all how you want to look at it. 
    
    Property destruction is something else.  I was also sickened by some of
    the happenings at Foxboro, particularly in '89 when those toilets got
    trashed.  That's the first time in more than 20 years of going to Dead
    shows that I've seen that kind of destruction.  And I can't explain why
    it happens.  But I can tell ya that most heads are as disgusted by that
    kind of bahavior as you and I are ... because most heads know that kind
    of thing will lead to the end of the tour scene and they want to avoid
    that.
    
    The deaths you mentioned were completely out of context.  I was at the
    Meadowlands show the night Adam Katz was killed, and I am FIRMLY
    convinced he was killed by security (NOT police) persons.  My reasoning
    for that statement is based on observations that night before and after
    the show.  Many of those yellow-shirts were antagonizing heads, and
    beating them as soon as they opened their mouths.  Those guys were
    acting like they were legbreakers for Guido the Loan Shark from
    Hoboken.  We will probably never know for sure what happened, but I
    think Adam Katz' death was more the result of an attitude problem by
    the security than anything.  Incidentally, there have also been many
    violent incidents at the Byrne Arena during hockey and basketball
    events involving security and patrons, so I don't think it's a Grateful
    Dead thing.  A second incident, that involving the LAPD also comes to
    mind.  The LAPD reported that the man involved bacame violent and
    injured himself.  Coincidentally, that was also the initial report they
    filed last month in that now-infamous incident.  They had to change
    their report after the videotape was shown, however.  This type of
    violence is indicative of a nationwide problem, and has little to do
    with the Grateful Dead or their fans.
    
    In reply .19 you compare the Foxboro show to a game at Fenway Park.  To
    keep things in perspective, there were about three times as many people
    at Foxboro, so the litter problem can be expected to be greater.  But
    just to make a comment here, I've seen more people at Fenway throw
    their trash on the floor than use waste containers.  Laziness is not a
    problem unique to deadheads.
    
    Jim, most of us in here come from middle-class suburbia.  Some of us
    have children, and are concerned about many of the same things as you
    are.  As to wanting your kids to make it through adolescence without
    feeling pressured to take drugs, Jim that's got nothing to do with the
    Dead, or their fans.  Kids are gonna experiment with whatever they
    decide to ... I think it has more to do with curiousity and a natural
    tendency for teenagers to rebel than anything else.  Sure, seeing
    people zonked out at Dead shows isn't a good example.  But most of
    those zonked-out people are themselves teenagers experimenting, just
    the way I (and I bet most of us in here) did when we were that age. 
    And not all of that happened at Dead shows either.  While a lot of that
    goes on at shows, the same people will act that way whether they're at
    a show or not.  The association with that kind of behavior and Grateful
    Dead concerts isn't necessarily valid, and constitutes stereotyping at
    it's worst because the vast majority of Deadheads don't act that way.
    
    I think the best way to keep your kids from feeling pressured is to
    educate them yourself to the dangers of drugs.  Make them feel like
    they don't have to experiment to find out about these things.  Give
    them proper values and self-esteem so they don't have to feel pressured
    by their peers into doing something they don't want to do.  Personally,
    if I wanted to keep a kid from doing drugs, I might take them to a show
    just to show them those zonked-out types and ask them to think for
    themselves if they really wanna be like that.  Most kids are smart
    enough to figure out the answer for themselves.  And if they still
    wanna experiment, well there isn't much of anything you could have done
    to prevent it anyway.  Such is human nature.
    
    In summary Jim, I see many of the same things you do.  I put an
    entirely different interpretation on what I'm seeing.  Much of it
    disgusts me these days.  But in all honesty, 20 years ago that might
    have been me zonked out on the sidewalk.  During those years, my values
    and perspectives on human behavior have changed.  I'll bet yours have
    too ... acquiring a family does that to a person.  But it isn't valid
    to just focus on all the negative things and blame it on being a
    deadhead, 'cause some people are gonna act like animals no matter where
    they are.  At least in the case of Dead shows, you have another side to
    look at, if you will ... namely those heads who do get actively
    involved in trying to do their bit to make it better.  That's about all
    you can expect, isn't it ??
    
    ... Bob
    
    

My apologies.  I should have known better than to question anything Dead related 
in this conference.

T!ng, it seems that my stating that I don't like some of what I have seen at 
some Dead shows puts me in that class of blatantly stereotyping people 
that you seem to hate with such a passion.  I'm sorry you feel that way.

I agree that there are far worse things happening in the world than what happens
at a Dead concert, but having an example of something that is worse should not
be a justification for accepting anything.  I have personally seen some changes
in the Dead concert scene that trouble me.  I thought that this was a safe
enough place to express my concerns about something that has been important 
in my life without getting flamed.  I was wrong.  I apologize for upsetting
t!ng and other Grateful noters.

Jim

    No flames intended from me, Jim...  
    
    It's just not a perfect world and we are not perfect people.
    
    mary

Sorry for getting a little steamed.  I'm just human, ya know  8-).

It just really bothers me when someone uses one or two incidents
to generalize about an entire scene.  It's like saying that the
*worst* cases of drunkeness I've ever seen is at baseball games just
because one guy had a bit too much and was puking his guts out next
to me.  Statements like that are not only untrue, but also are unfair
for the rest of us who are trying our darndest to straighten out the
scene the best way we can.  I think for the amount of people that
shows up at a show, the Grateful Dead scene is very mellow in
proportion to its size, and it's going to get better if you give it
a chance.

peace,
t!ng

Jim,

  I fit your description of yourself and I too have seen what you describe, but
I believe Bob Bailey's note says it for me.  Also, only a few jumped on you, not
really many from the notes file.  Don't broad brush it here either, some of us
agreed with things you had to say, just not the all encompassing remarks.

  john 

    Ting:
    
    	I too was surprised by your fervor there. Go out and eat a big
    juicy steak. It'll get those hormones back in order ;^)
    
    Mary
    
    	Have a little respect Mary. I am tiring of reading your personal
    attacks, ridiculing any and every opinion contrary to your own.
    Everyone has a right to their opinon, and in grateful they are allowed
    to epress those opinions, right or wrong. You keep appending statements
    that say you do respect others opinions,... but that is not very
    believable after reading some of the stuff you've written above that.
    If you truly do have respect,.. then maybe I should say "show" it,
    rather than "have"it. I do not want people to stop partaking in these
    discussions for fear of bearing th ewrath of Mary. Instead of the old
    extract/tear to shreads/ repost ,.. why don't you just entre your
    opinion and leave it at that. I for one might put more credence in what
    you say if I didn't have to wade through a slew of personal attacks.
    	Actually I find it amusing that I am writing this, because I often
    agree with what you have to say. Its the way you go about it,.. the 
    delivery needs work. I want everyone, including you, to be free to
    express themselves. I don't like reading that Jim is sorry he spoke up.
    Why the #@$%^&*( should anybody have to feel sorry for expressing
    themselves?
    	The condescension is also rather annoying. We (the Marvs, Johns,
    Jims,.. and now probably me too) are not children, waiting for  you to
    bestow your wisdom upon us. You have an *opinion* to express, then
    eess it. We'll listen. Buit if you are trying to come off as the wise
    old sage,.... ?
    
    	Its no woder to me that you don't feel that Ting's reply was heavy
    handed. IMHO, that is the most heavy handed reply Ting ever wrote. And
    there's nothing wrong with that either.
    
    					/_now_at_the_top_of_mary's_sh*t_list

I must say I'm getting alot tired of the uptight testy attitude in here.  I
just came back in from a truly gorgeous day and it sure is a contrast to here.

		Dave

RE.  /

�  Am I brave, stupid or masochistic?

  oh pluhleeesse let me answer this one  ;-), but I want more choices 

Mary, do you have a shitlist???  who's on it???  ;-)  me?/  / (he's on mine,
       no reason just because)

Geoff, where's my _fondue_  I love fondue!!

T!ng, girrllll did you get everyone's attention or what!??????

�  AIMHI::KELLER "Wherever you go, there you are"

� 		LIGHTEN UP EVERYONE, LIFE IS TOO SHORT

�  Geoff


works for me.

 john

RE:      <<< Note 148.34 by AOXOA::STANLEY "I need a miracle every day..." >>>

>I must say I'm getting alot tired of the uptight testy attitude in here.  I
>just came back in from a truly gorgeous day and it sure is a contrast to here.



A beauty it is!  I went out to lunch with the people in my group and it felt so
good to be out in the nice weather/sun that I almost told them to take the rest
of the day off and have some fun.



Jim

    RE .29
    
    Jim, I just went back and re-read all the replies to this note.  One
    thing I noticed is that the majority of replies agreed with you to some
    degree or another, just not with the broad generalizations you were
    using to phrase your arguments.  So the first statement in reply .29 
    kinda bothers me a bit, because you apparently feel inhibited to 
    "question anything Dead related in this conference".  You should feel
    free to raise these kind of issues whenever you please.  You should
    also expect a lively discussion to ensue.  But you should not expect
    personal attacks for your views.  With one exception I don't think anybody
    took your remarks personally or really "flamed" you back.  So please
    don't use that one example to conclude that you shouldn't feel free to
    discuss things.  I can respect your opinion and disagree with it at the
    same time ... most of us can.  And if there's one value that I think
    most Deadheads do have in common I think it's tolerance of differences
    of opinion.
    
    But you must learn to judge us as individuals, because we're all
    different.  There is where most of us have a problem with the way you
    presented your argument.
    
    RE .33
    
    Slash ... where are you comin' from mon ???  I went back and read
    Mary's replies.  Sorry ol' buddy, but I can't see where she deserves
    what you said.  Mary always argues hard ... most times I suspect purely
    for the fun of it.  But I thought we all knew how to take all that by
    now.
    
    Man, this conference has sure been controversial lately.  I thought
    Deadheads didn't like controversy ... can we all kiss and make up now?
    
    ... Bob
    

re:  <<< Note 148.37 by BOOKS::BAILEYB "Smilin' on a cloudy day" >>>

>    can we all kiss and make up now?
    
	SMMMMMOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOCCHHHH!!!  8->!!

peace,
t!ng

re:  <<< Note 148.35 by OURGNG::RYAN "Spent my life seeking all that's still unsung" >>>

>T!ng, girrllll did you get everyone's attention or what!??????

Ok, ok, I confess!!  I entered that mean, nasty, heavy-handed, cut-throat
note because I'm sick of being a goody two-shoe, ok??  Just because I like
giving out "no time to hate" stickers doesn't mean I'm an angel all the
time (just most of the time, that's all 8-/ 8-) ;-)

PEACE!!,
t!ng

p.s.  And, yes, Jim, please go ahead and express your opinion and I'll
      promise to be good next time.

    Bob
    
    	Where am I coming from?
    
    	Like I said,.. I'm tired of reading personal attacks, and watching
    people bicker,.. and recently Mary always seems to be in the thick of
    it. Maybe her replies were not so bad here, and I may have taken it
    wrong, but the smily face after the reply where she stated that Ting 
    had not been heavy handed hit me wrong. Ting's reply was heavy handed,
    and upset Jim, and if Jim has to read how someone else doesn't think he
    was right to be upset, then where does that leave him? Howling at the
    lonesome moon? No,.. I don't think so,.. and neither does Ting which is
    why she so kindly apologized for her own tone. Some other people could
    take a lesson from that.
    
    	So where are you coming from Bob?
    
    								/

    jeez... and to think that all I had in mind when I posted this note was
    
    (a) an expression of joy that the Dead would be coming back to my part
    of the world
    
    (b) satisfaction that a "let's keep it clean" attitude could reverse 
    at least one instance of banishment and maybe turn around some of the 
    negative image that the Deadhead culture is burdened with
    
    Something about this discussion must have touched some very sensitive
    nerve endings, looking at the emotion in the last two dozen or so
    responses.  Most of you seem to know one another on a personal basis. 
    Why are you so busily getting pi**ed off at each other?

re:     <<< Note 148.41 by STAR::SALKEWICZ "It missed... therefore, I am " >>>
                          -< I know where we've been >-

>    people bicker,.. and recently Mary always seems to be in the thick of

Well you sure showed her a thing or two didn't you now.  I don't think she'll
be bothering you any longer.  Too bad you don't notice your own personal
attacks.

		Dave

hey now folks - here's where I get punched right?  once from each
direction....

What's the deal any way???  Something is right in what *everyone* said.

And Dave - I thought MAry could/would handle herself....are you offended
for her?

let's not get personal...

bob the emotional moderator...

	Relax everyone.

	We're all trying to learn and build bridges, not destroy them.

	Everyone should go home, and do whatever you have to do to
	relax ... (now, I don't want to get into a discussion about
	each other's way of relaxing, thank you very much.)

re:      <<< Note 148.45 by LANDO::HAPGOOD "Leroy says, 'keep on rockin'" >>>
                           -< maybe I'm a fool.... >-


Well, Bob, I usually stay try to out of conflicts, here and outside of notes.
I love Mary very much and there was something that hit me in that note.  She
comes on strong but there is a very sensitive person behind that.

		Dave

    Geez, if it wasn't the spring tour, I'd think y'all needed a show!
    What's with the high level of stress lately? It's not just in here, but
    all over. Spring fever? Fear of layoffs? Sunspots?
    
    Do what Charlie Papazian (Mr. Homebrew) sez:
    relax, don't worry, ahve a homebrew!
    
    Scott
    

    RE .41
    
    >> So where are you coming from Bob?
    
    Well, since you asked ... the land of confusion I suppose.  I can't
    understand the logic behind you twice now stating that you're tired of
    reading personal attacks, then immediately following that statement up
    with a personal attack of your very own.  I don't like reading that
    stuff either, and I'll bet nobody in here does.  But I can't see how
    you can justify slamming somebody else for doing something while
    simultaneously doing the same thing yourself.  Think about it man ...
    
    I'm very sorry that Jim got flamed for expressing something he
    legitimately felt concerned about.  But I just don't see where Mary
    should get slammed for it, she wasn't the one who did the flaming.
    I took the time to go back and re-read all those replies 'cause I
    truly couldn't figure out where your justification for reply .33 came
    from ... and I still can't.
    
    I think if you feel the need to say stuff like that to somebody, you
    should not do it in here ... send them a mail message.  Nobody in here
    deserves to be publically humiliated.  Your comments to Mary in reply 
    .33 were the most personal, personal attack I've seen in here in a long
    time ... perhaps ever.
    
    This Notes conference is a very special place for me ... it's usually
    synonomous with harmony ... a place where I can come to get away from
    the craziness of everyday life, and enjoy some chatter with a community
    of very special people.  When one of us directs hurtful comments toward
    another, it affects the whole community because it disrupts the harmony
    that makes this the special place that it is.  I'd like to see us learn
    to settle our differences a little less hurtfully.  I'd like to see us
    be a little more accepting of the aspects of each other's character
    that endears us to some while at the same time aggravates the hell out
    of others.  Most of the time we manage to do that, but not this time. 
    And it hurts me to see us hurting each other.
    
    Basically, that's where I'm coming from ...
    
    						... Bob
    

      <<< Note 148.47 by AOXOA::STANLEY "I need a miracle every day..." >>>

>Well, Bob, I usually stay try to out of conflicts, here and outside of notes.
>I love Mary very much and there was something that hit me in that note.  She
>comes on strong but there is a very sensitive person behind that.

I knew that Dave!  I can be the same way too....

I dunno why I put that note in except to maybe see where you were
coming from....which I admit - I already knew!???

I'm not making sense!
bob

RE:                    <<< Note 148.52 by XCUSME::MACINTYRE >>>

   >    I just hope Jim and Dave read this before commenting on .51.
    
        
    
    I did and no problem here....right now my hope is that those who have
disagreements about noting style/content/whatever can get them worked out
offline/online or any way you can.  There's too much other stuff going on to
worry about to let these things separate us into them vs us.  We are all one
with some differences.  Lets get them settled and move on.



I still like the idea of a hug orgy one of these days.   :^)





Jim    

re:  <<< Note 148.53 by DASXPS::HENDERSON "Someone's got to turn the page" >>>

>I still like the idea of a hug orgy one of these days.   :^)

I get hug orgy fixes at Dead shows 8-).

peace,
t!ng

    huh???  what???  did someone say orgy?!?!?!?!
    
    		:^) :^) :^) :^) :^) :^) :^) :^)
    
    					da ve

> hug orgy

	heh heh, at Friday nights show while waiting for a friend to
	"get dressed" some random head (cute, blond hair, blue eyes
	anout 23/24) came up to me, tapped me on the shoulder and
	asked for a hug.  Only at a deadshow!  And only at a deadshow
	would I be so inclined to give him that hug ... all while the
	love of my life is watching, and smiling because he thinks it
	is so cool also!   :-) :-)

It's beautiful today and will be all weekend, I say now is the time for
the first official (east-coast; west-coaster ARE certainly welcome) hug
orgy (tm).  Anyone reading this who sees me between now and Monday gets
a hug!!!

Lisa

    oooooo I'll be right up !

    Wow ... you should see the line outside Lisa's office ... ;^)
    
    								... Bob
    

Call 1-800-HUG-ORGY for reservations :^)




Jim	

    I found it ! I found it ! thanks LS I needed that ! :')

Yes, Chris and Bbb have already stopped by to visit me .... ;^)  Bbb mentioned
coming back.  By the way, Rache and Probably - I stopped down before to deliver
your hugs but yous guys weren't around.  

Lisa

So how 'bout coming up here and giving Shawn and me one?  :^)







Jim

Hey, Lisa, that's not fair.  By the time us west-coasters drive out there,
it'd be Tuesday and we would've missed our hugs!!  8-(

I thought we were supposed to meet up somewhere in between...like Kansas.

peace,
t!ng_a_deprived_huglette

re:    <<< Note 148.62 by DASXPS::HENDERSON "Someone's got to turn the page" >>>

>So how 'bout coming up here and giving Shawn and me one?  :^)


Yea, I sure could use one right about now. 8-)


Shawn

    
    T!ng, i sympathize with your plight...  may i offer you a mondo
    virtual hug??  :^)
    
    				da ve

    Where else is it so easy to turn a slugfest into a hugfest ... ;^)
    
    ... Bobbb
    

re:  <<< Note 148.65 by STRATA::DWEST "Dont Overlook Something Extraordinary" >>>
    
>    T!ng, i sympathize with your plight...  may i offer you a mondo
>    virtual hug??  :^)
    
Sure, da ve!!  That's sounds great!!  Just give me a minute so I can
put on my mondo virtual-reality you-really-think-you're-getting-hugged
hug vest, ok??  8-)

peace,
t!ng

and just when I was about to offer you a raincheck T!ng, enjoy your virtual
hug!!!!   :-)

Lisa

  I want a virtual hug !!!!!

  and a virual ----  ;-)

  john

    
    Um, excuse me sir but this is a family conference. 
    
    ;-)
    
    
    

John, you can have a real hug ... you just have to come here.

and Shawn and Jim .... I suppose you guys can have rainchecks, as long as
it's a sunny day.  :-)
    

    
    
    
    	 Sounds like he wants to expand the family.....
        

	"Virtual reality ain't what it used to be."

-Zippy The Pinhead        

re .43
>Well you sure showed her a thing or two didn't you now.  I don't think she'll
>be bothering you any longer.  Too bad you don't notice your own personal
>attacks.

	Yeah I guess its a one direction communication then. We all can
bear the personal attacks of Mary,.. but she gets special moderator protection
from any attack on herself.

	Do you think I am unconscious? I realize full well what I am/was
doing/saying. I feel it needed,.. and needs to be said. I 'noticed' my own 
personal attacks Dave. I'm not denying them now. They were/are personal.
Only I seem to have lost touch with the one person who should be replying.

	What the hell,.. if she's bent on ruining this space for me,..
	why not give her something to think about before I log off
	forever.

re .47

>Well, Bob, I usually stay try to out of conflicts, here and outside of notes.
>I love Mary very much and there was something that hit me in that note.  She
>comes on strong but there is a very sensitive person behind that.

	Love is blind. Why do you stay out of all the other conflicts
	that she gets into by attacking everyone else and jump right
	in when she herself is attacked?

re .41
    
    >> So where are you coming from Bob?
    
>    Well, since you asked ... the land of confusion I suppose.  I can't
>    understand the logic behind you twice now stating that you're tired of
>    reading personal attacks, then immediately following that statement up
>    with a personal attack of your very own.  I don't like reading that
>    stuff either, and I'll bet nobody in here does.  But I can't see how
>    you can justify slamming somebody else for doing something while
>    simultaneously doing the same thing yourself.  Think about it man ...

	Fighting fire with fire I guess. Maybe its not justified.
    
>    I'm very sorry that Jim got flamed for expressing something he
>    legitimately felt concerned about.  But I just don't see where Mary
>    should get slammed for it, she wasn't the one who did the flaming.
>    I took the time to go back and re-read all those replies 'cause I
>    truly couldn't figure out where your justification for reply .33 came
>    from ... and I still can't.

	She was the one who made a ?joke? about it by smily facing a reply
	stating that Ting was not heavy handed in her opinion. Like kids on
	a playground,.. its so nice to see her ganging up with Ting on
	Jim. Ting apologized for her heavy handedness...

	That to me was a two person personal attack on Jim, downgraded
	to a one person attack per Ting's apology, and that where it *still*
	stands.
    
>    I think if you feel the need to say stuff like that to somebody, you
>    should not do it in here ... send them a mail message.  Nobody in here
>    deserves to be publically humiliated.  Your comments to Mary in reply 
>    .33 were the most personal, personal attack I've seen in here in a long
>    time ... perhaps ever.

	Agreed. Ya know,.. I've been noting here for too long I guess.
	I remember when this used to be a fun place. Try though you may 
	poeople to pretend and convince each other that it really is just
	as good as the old gratefuls... to me,.. it just aint. Its turned
	into a bunch of childish bullsh*t that has me reaching for work
	to do for relief from reading grateful. This is upsetting to me.
	Its not all Mary's fault, but uts like the final straw for me.
	I had two choices. Quietly disappear into the woodwork and remove
	this from my notebook,.. or vent my spleen. I chose the latter in the
	hopes that maybe she would cool out a little and allow people a
	chance to express themselves and maybe give her flamethrower a rest.
	So I cranked up my flame thrower.... 
    
>    This Notes conference is a very special place for me ... it's usually
>    synonomous with harmony 

	It *was* once like that. At least the memories are good.

... a place where I can come to get away from
>    the craziness of everyday life, and enjoy some chatter with a community
>    of very special people.  When one of us directs hurtful comments toward
>    another, it affects the whole community because it disrupts the harmony
>    that makes this the special place that it is.  I'd like to see us learn
>    to settle our differences a little less hurtfully.  I'd like to see us
>    be a little more accepting of the aspects of each other's character
>    that endears us to some while at the same time aggravates the hell out
>    of others.  Most of the time we manage to do that, but not this time. 
>    And it hurts me to see us hurting each other.

	Me too. So why should I stand by when IMHO there is someone
	going around hurting everyone for no apparent good reason?
	My attack was vicious,.. I admit it. The expression:

	He/She can sure dish it out, but he/she can't take it

	comes to mind.
    
>    Basically, that's where I'm coming from ...

	Thanks for the reply Bob. And thanks to anyone else who actually
	cares enough to reply to me. You might have better luck with
	mail in the future.

						Bill Salkewicz
						DTN 381-0546

    Wow.  And after all those hug replies.  Geepers.
    
    Yeah, things are different:  lots of "lighten ups" in this "new"
    notesfile.  It used to be the default before.  Now some need to be
    reminded.  Oh well, we can blame it on lots of things. Some blame the
    world, some blame the notesfile, I personally blame my shoes.  What the
    hell?
    
    dave

re:  <<< Note 148.75 by SPOCK::IRONS "Shadow boxin' the apocalypse" >>>

>    Oh well, we can blame it on lots of things. Some blame the
>    world, some blame the notesfile, I personally blame my shoes.  What the
>    hell?
    
I blame it on the bug I ate with my ice-cream on Easter Sunday.  It landed
in my ice-cream, so I figured it was a lot easier eating it then trying to
shoo it off.  Heck, what the hell??  I thought it kind of tasted like
stale liquorice - didn't go well with my vanilla ice-cream, so it ruined
the week for me.  ;-)  8-)

peace & love,
t!ng

xxxxoxoxoxoxoxooooooxxxoxoxoooooooxxxxxx and a smmmooooocchhh!!

re:     <<< Note 148.74 by STAR::SALKEWICZ "It missed... therefore, I am " >>>
               -< counting to ten didn't really change anything >-
  
I won't reply point by point but I feel I have to say something.  I can only
say that the heat that built up in here got me too and I replied as I did.  I'm
sorry things got out of hand.

Guess I don't know what else to say.

		Dave

  Dave, /, & ALL,

   Is it because I don't know you personally, well it seems like I do, 
so that I don't understand the not stated dislike of a different level, but
why is this so outta hand.  I am used to the Colorado Deadheads.  We drink
homebrew and imbibe and if we talk politics they get in my face.  rfb and 
Divide Dave harass me firmly about my wishy washy ways and politics and 
whatever .....  we nail Dave about averything and rfb about his in your
facenesss, the conversations aren't always nice, we don't always say "in
my opinion", but you know  they helped me move when I was poor, visited
me when I couldn't walk and we just don't hold minor issues against each 
other.  Hell, don't judge each other by their opinions on these surface
level ideas .... 

  I understand where Dave is coming from!!!  He got lucky and married a 
woman with some passion, one that tries to be nice but opens her mouth
and the emotion comes out.  and he loves her, he knew /'s words would
hurt and as with all passionate people I'll bet Mary feels that emotion 
pretty strongly too.  I'll bet Mary has stuck her foot in her mouth so many
times that it is wrinkled by the spit ;-), but shoot I'll bet if / really
needed help she show up with chicken soup or whatever and if he was still
mad leave it on the doorstep.  I like Mary!!  I like emotional people, but 
I'll bet she is a emotional weakling at times and Dave stood up for her, I 
like him for it!!

  / is one of my favorite people in DEC, wise cracking smartass that thinks
and cares, I'm even of the opinion that he is pretty damn smart.  Too serious,
too intense, but another chicken soup giver. 

  Jim Evans, sounds like good enough guy, made a broad generalization, geez
can't imagine one of us doing THAT!!!!!!  Kinda sounded like mid-life crisis
stuff to me, when you are old like me you have some of his feelings and I
guess he just broad brushed it. 

  Well, Jim, Mary, /, Dave and John and Marv, come on out and fight and 
generalize with us "western Deadheads" will fight back and laugh at you,
but we'll still be friends.  I guess it's sitting undr those Rocky Mtn. stars
listening to tapes that reminds us of what's important and what isn't!!!!

  Gotta go to my other job, love ya all, enjoy your weekends.


  john
  

re .78:


	Amen brother and right on the money as far as I'm concerned. I 
couldn't have said it better myself and a weekend under the Maine Stars with 
some good friends and good music helped me out.

Life is full of conflicts, even between people you love. The best part of a 
fight is kissing and making up:-)

I have a feeling that alot of people in here have cabin fever. it has been a 
long depressing almost-winter-that-never-came and grey and dreary and rainy 
for 3 months gets people depressed. I hope this past weekend with some sun and 
some heat melted some of the ice that has formed recently.

We will all survive the battles that are going on in the world. Internally 
and externally. We may get wounded and have some scars to show at the end but 
they will make great topics of stories for our grandchildren and other 
generations to come.

Life is good,

Geoff

So, how many people did we lose on account of this discussion?  

Unfortunately, we'll probably never know.   I think Geoff's explanation
in .79 says a lot, and I hope those who have left will come back.  




Jim

    you people are too much!!!!!!!!!!! I REALLY can't believe whut I've
    just read in here. I know by now...and I find it hard to believe
    there are those in here that haven't yet...who to f%*& with verbally
    and who not too..(not that I EVEN care really) /, I don't know you
    , but you seem awfully willing to beat on Mary for some of the
    things I see  (read) you doing in here too!  Mary, I don't know
    you either, but you seem awqfully rash in some of your statementys,
    Bob Bailey, I don't know you either...E:Evans, I don't know either....
    Marv, the same.....and most of you don't know me either so you don't
    REALLY know what an ashole I really am...... BUT I DO ENJOY THIS
    FILE!!!!!!! amnd I am PROUD to be  deadhead...and I wILL tell everyone
    that wants to listen.................AND I DO HOPE WE ARE ALL STILL
    IN THIS FILE .............TOGETHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

	I am so sorry.

	I should have just faded away. There is no reason for me to play
	police man of this notesfile. People can fend for themselves I
	guess. I can stop reading. I guess I am personally saddened that
	this file has started to resemble SOAPBOX more than GRATEFUL
	of late. I love the old GRATEFUL,.. where everybody was entitled
	to their opinion and were free to express it... where even if they were
	"wrong" (Can an opinion ever be wrong?) they did not have to worry
	about defending themselves,.. they just never got attacked. Somehow,
	we used to be able tio discuss our differences of opinon and accept
	the fact that we did not agree,.. and we'd agree to disagree and get
	on with the business of supporting each other with our friendship,
	which is what made this such a special place for me. Somehow, the 
	issues have become more important than the friendship,.. and I fear
	that that is where we are committing a fatal error. 

	But who am I to	set policy? 

	Who the #$%^& am I to do what I did to Mary? 

	I'm sorry Mary that you were in the forefront of my mind when I decided
	to let loose with all my fustration that has built up from this 
	notesfile over the last few weeks/months. While I do believe that you 
	could show a little more respect, it is certainly not true that you are
	the sole reason for me deciding not to participate anymore. Please hear
	me and understand me when I say I am sorry for making you out to be 
	something you are not. Its probably too little too late, but I offer
	my apologies now. 

	Fellow heads, I thank you all for the off line support, but please
	realize that the last thing I want to do is draw lines and chose sides
	on this. That whole process is the very thing that has upset me, and it
	is the last thing that I want to perpetuate any further. Of course,
	with the wrath I expressed, its probably too late. Why should Mary or
	anyone else forgive me for my outburst?

	I feel somewhat violated,.. like that place/thing called grateful
	is being taken away from me. Obviously its not all Mary's fault.
	Things are just a wee bit hot these days. And yes Geoff, it has been
	a long cold lonely winter (Thanks for the words George),... and 
	maybe thats why things are so tense,. but its certainly no excuse.
	It didn't used to matter what was going on in the rest of the world,...
	we always seemed to get by without the world @#$%^&ing up our act.

	Where has all the tolerance and good karma gone?

	I will be relegating myself to read-only land instead of disappearing
	completely. I just don't seem to be able to feel right about saying
	much of anything anymore. I feel like a criminal who is no longer
	worthy of a being part of grateful.

	But to the mod's I must coment that its not your fault either. Fog 
	expressed some kind of personal fustration that he feels because
	he designed the model for organization we are trying to use. Well Fog
	et al, the organization is not IMHO what has created the problem.
	Sure people are going to have to learn to deal with it,. and sure 
	you'll get a handful of complaints from people who have nothing better
	to do than knock what you're doing, but hey! that is not why we are
	so tense in here. We are so tense because we are attacking and
	afraid of attack. If you take a personal attack such as mine and move
	it to the "personal attacks only" note, it doesn't change a bloody
	thing. The tension exists because of the contents of the
	notes, and not because of the placement/organization of them. The
	fact that we organized and also disintegrated at close to the
	same time is purely coincidence,.. so please don't blame yourselves
	or your attempt to organize this mess for the bad vibes. the bad vibes
	are coming from other places,... kabish?

	Anyway, I'm really not in any shape to say much more than I hope
	I have not ruined this place for all of you. What a child I am...

							/

  / don't be so hard on yourself.  You are not a criminal, it is not 
your fault what is going on in here.  All sorts of things can be the 
cause...we just came through a war, the economy is a total disaster,
many of us are on the brink of financial disaster and for the first time
in our DEC lives, we could be out of a job tomorrow.  And many of us
at times have our disagreements.


There's no reason for anyone to leave here, IMO.  Yeah, there were some
differences.  OK.  But I, for one, learn something from everybody who writes
in here, and life IS for learning.  Everybody has something to say, and when
everybody says what they have to say there are going to be differences.  I,
for one can accept that, and I think most of us can.  Some of us say what
we have to say a little differently than others, and lets remember that
the way we READ stuff electronically can be 180 degrees off from the author's
intentions.



Anyway, I have work to do.  I hate to see anyone leave this conference.  If
anybody can work out whatever differences they have, I would think it could
be us.




Jim

ditto what Jim and Geoff said!  

The bad vibes have many reasons .... not only many for each individual but
different ones between different people.  Let's stop trying to measure the
state of the company or state of the world or state of whatever based on
outbursts in here.  Just recognize it exists, and is OK.  We are all entitled
to our releases afterall.

We create our own realities and situations.... for what it is worth I sense
tension but nowhere near the magnitude I have seen alluded to by some here.  We
do all carry our own baggage and personal measuring sticks afterall.  Life is
too short to let another person's bad trip create one for yourself.  Just
remember whose face you see in the mirror. 

Once we all face the general tense vibes all around I'd bet we'll see our
'old grateful' begin to reammerge.

to slash (and others who may feel like leaving), do what feels comfortable 
to you but please don't attiribute it to what the file needs for it's health.
We all would like to see you, and everyone stay ... at least I would, but
first and foremost I'd like to see you remain happy!

Lisa

	Bill mon, you are being much to hard on yourself.  Take a breather and
join us again sometime soon.  We all make mistakes, and hopefully, most of us
can forgive, forget, and get on with it.

	Mary, I sure hope you join us again too.  

	Peace mon,
	JC

    /,
    sometime ago , last year or maybe before...I wuz feeling exactly
    like the note you just entered that started with "I'm sorry...."
    I did the same thing, became read only until I had something 
    to say, because I percieved myself as coming across negative and
    percieved peoples reactions to me as negative....that all passed
    as time went on in life and GRATEFUL.... I hope to see your smiling
    / in here again..........the same goes to Mary, Marv, Jim, T!ing
    and everyone else.
    
    the only thing I know for sure is that we DO love each other.
                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'm probably in a position to make suggestions, but how about if we
all TAKE A CHILL PILL, MELLOW OUT, POP IN ONE OF YOUR FAVORITE TAPES,
AND HUG THE FIRST PERSON YOU SEE!!  I feel bad that I did my share
to spread some bad vibes in here, but I've kicked myself a few times
and now I'm ready to do time to spread at least as much good vibes
(if not a *lot* more) to counteract.  So how about it, folks??  Let's
start a love chain.  Send a good and happy message to 5 people (especially
if you feel need it) and ask each of them to pass it on to 5 more people.
Also, if you don't have a "NO TIME TO HATE" sticker to stick somewhere to
remind yourself that there really *is* no time to mope, to sulk, to be
unhappy, and *especially* to hate, let me know and I'll send you some.
Life really *is* too short.  If you need to be reminded of this, just
visit your nearest graveyard and ask the nearest dead body or reread
"A Christmas Carol".  I'll get off my soapbox now.

Come on, people now, smile on your brother!!

peace, love, hugs, smiles, and good karma!!,
t!ng

RE:                    <<< Note 148.87 by XCUSME::MACINTYRE >>>

       
   >   I have to disagree with you on what's going on in here.  Coming 
   > through a war, economy is disarray, personal financial disasters 
   > and the changes here at DEC are *not* what's caused the current rift.
    

     Right.  I was commenting on the overall "testiness" that has been 
     evident and offering my postulation that the above may be contributors
     to that condition that may have led to several outbursts of emotion
     that ensued.

     Other than that, I'd prefer not to continue the discussion.



     Jim




          

I've just made my way through this entire note from first to last.

In my opinion, the problems that have surfaced here reflect the general state
of unease within the Corporation, the Country, and the entire planet.  We're a
pretty accurate barometer of what's going on.  Everyone is uncertain, uptight,
at least a little angry, and confused.  We've been at war.  Our company is in
financial trouble.  People are losing jobs.  This stuff all has effects on
things like the gestalt of vibes in a place like GRATEFUL.  At least we have a
place where we can let it hang out!

I'd like to suggest that the real cause of the problems, hurt feelings, and
disillusionment in the notesfile seem to stem from circumstances when one
person feels that it is necessary to defend or otherwise shield another person. 
Interpretations get all fuzzy, intentions get confused, people see personal
attacks where perhaps none were intended, etc.  I don't think that anyone here
needs defense...after all, we are all intelligent responsible adults (or so we
like to think!).

I *really* don't see how anything in this discussion should have gotten anyone
as offended as it appeared to have done.  A couple of people had a strong
disagreement.  Such is the nature of communication.  Only when others tried
defending one person or another did things get unpleasant.

GRATEFUL ain't like it used to be.  DIGITAL ain't like it used to be.  I don't
think these are separate issues, entirely.  

Please, let's let people have their opinions and express themselves in their
own ways.  Sometimes that may not be pleasant for you.  However, before
"reacting" it might be wise to ask yourself if your response will add value to
the conversation.  I'm *not* saying, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say
anything at all."  I AM saying, "If you can't say anything *productive*, don't
say anything at all."

Now, let's get back to our previously scheduled digressions, eh?

	~dave

Hey ~prob,

You touched on a point I was thinking of making and that is that
even though this is communication it is a poor form of it at that.

IMO, I've seen more arguments and flame wars between people in notesfiles
because: you can't tell what a joke is by reading pixels on a screen,
you can't see the dastardly smile on the face at the other end, you are
really disconnected and there fore less likely to really be as careful
as if speaking face to face, you can't see body movement...and on and on 
and on....

I think all of these add up ...
bob

	Right On Probz!!

                I think everyone has to face the fact that these are emotional
                times.  The sooner we can all see that we have a handicapp
                (of sorts) from the starting gate the sooner we can all begin
                compensating.  And thus getting grateful back to where it is
                a place that everyone likes to be.

	Now, let's stop beating this horse and all go Hug Probably, or the
	closest DECHead you can find!!  :-)

    Welcome to Grateful; please leave your mundane problems at the door.
    :-)
    
    I haven't been following this discussion at all, except to skim the
    first few replies and next unseen over the rest. It's certainly not fun
    and I'm not one to participate in heated discussions.
    
    We should get back to discussing things of real importance, like what's
    our favorite jelly flavor. I just got some elderberry jam from a
    friend's mother in Mississippi and it's yummy!
    
    Scott
    

    does orange marmalade qualify as a favorite jelly flavor, Scott?
    if so that's mine...  love it one an english muffin with a big 
    cholesterol laden pat-o-butter!!!!
    
    				da ve_virtual_burping

I love jam with Randy's special home-made walnut and fruit waffles!!
If anyone is in my immediate neighborhood, you have my personal invite
to come up and experience this delicious conglomeration of heavenly
delight for yourself 8-)!!

peace,
t!ng

    Watch out!  The moderator police...with *me* as head
    police-person...are about to move this discussion to the "What's your
    favorite jam" topic. :^)
    
    Sure hope we don't get into any arguments over the merits of jam vs
    jelly vs preserves!  :^) :^)
    
    	~dave
    

I'd like to nominate this topic as the most digressively-digressed topic of
1991.  ;^)

- peace (back by popular demand)
  Dave

    I'm not big on Jellys but I can put Peanutbutter on just about anything
    :')
    
    
    Chris_the_digressively_digressed

    
    
    
    	I LOVE PB with my scrambled eggs....and this just isn't because 
    	I'm pregnant I've alwayed loved it. 
    
    	Nicole

I can eat peanut butter on just about anything also, however I prefer the
taste of raspberry (prounounce the P please!) jam.  As a matter of fact, I
simply prefer the taste of raspberries to just about anything!

Hey now;

I hate to be a whiner or anything, but ... DEC has some kind of policy
regarding chain letters via email ... is it that *all* chain letters are not
allowed, or does it have to do with the content?

Just don't want to see anything jeopardize this notesfile.

- Dave

    I'd say this chain "OF LOVE" letter is not the kinda chain letter 
    policy frowns on :') no money is asked for  so I (not being a policy
    cop) would say its OKDOKY !
    
    Chris

actually I believe the " no no " in regards to chain letters deals mainly with
the tie-up of computer resources.  But this isn't really a chain letter of
sorts ... there is no forwarding of mail all over the corporation, just alot of
similar messages being sent out to differing distributions lists (and then
being read, filed, replied to ,deleted whatever but not forwarded).  Heck, we
communicate with friends via EMail every day.  That's all we are really
doing.... 

Lisa

No problem; I just wanted to verify this for my own brain.

Here's the section from the OrangeBook that mentions chain letters, fyi.

- Dave

PERSONNEL                             Section 6.54           
Page  1 of 4           
POLICIES AND PROCEDURES               Effective 01-DEC-90    
                Proper Use of Digital Computers, Systems and
                                   Networks

SCOPE: WORLDWIDE

PHILOSOPHY

Systems and network utilities are powerful business tools, encouraging
creativity and the exchange of ideas needed to maintain our
competitive edge.  These tools allow for instantaneous creation of
"electronic" organizations to focus worldwide resources on urgent
tasks.  We want to encourage our people to use these tools in
accordance with Company philosophy and values.

Our peer-to-peer, open computing environment reflects our corporate
culture.  We sell this concept to customers, and business and society
are clearly moving towards this way of operating.  We believe that
what we sell to our customers will get better if we use it ourselves.

Information, and the ability to freely communicate it are valuable
assets that play a significant role in Digital's success.  The
protection and appropriate use of these assets is everyone's
responsibility.  We must strike a balance between encouraging open
systems and protecting these assets if they are to continue to support
our success.

POLICY

Digital owns and operates computers, systems and networks primarily to
support the Company's business activities.  Systems should be used to
enhance the cost effectiveness and efficient running of the business,
to assist employees in being more effective in executing their duties
and responsibilities, to enhance our employees' ability to operate our
computer systems, to foster appropriate open and efficient
communications and to perpetuate the use of computers in day-to-day
activities.

Employees should remember that computers, systems and networks like
paper files, notebooks etc., are company assets provided to employees
to assist them in performing their work.  These tools, and the work
product they contain are Company property and are therefore subject to
Company review and control.  The efficient operation of these vital
resources is critical to the success of the business, and it is

                        Digital Equipment Corporation

PERSONNEL                             Section 6.54           
Page  2 of 4           
POLICIES AND PROCEDURES               Effective 01-DEC-90    

                Proper Use of Digital Computers, Systems and
                                   Networks

therefore the responsibility of all employees to use the computer
resources provided to them by the Company appropriately.

DEFINITIONS

For the purpose of this policy, improper use includes, but is not
limited to the use of Digital owned and/or operated systems, networks
and conferences for the purpose of gaining unauthorized access to
internal or external computer systems or accounts, for personal
purposes that are contrary to Company philosophy or policy, for
purposes that interfere or compete with the Company's business
activities, or for purposes of individual financial gain.   Examples
of misuse include, but are not limited to, transmitting sexual or
ethnic jokes or slurs, soliciting other employees, developing chain
letters, making defamatory statements, disclosing private facts about
any individual or organization, inappropriate disclosure of Company
Proprietary or Confidential Information, permitting unauthorized
access, etc.

RESPONSIBILITIES

    COST CENTER MANAGERS - Cost center managers are responsible for
    effective use of the Company's assets, which includes networking
    and computers.  They may delegate that responsibility to other
    individuals, but they are ultimately responsible for making sure
    these policies are adhered to.

    SYSTEMS MANAGERS - All employees must ensure that computers,
    systems and networks that they manage are clearly operating in
    support of Company business activities.  System Managers must
    immediately investigate and report any incident of misuse by an
    employee to the employee's manager.

    MANAGERS - Managers should periodically remind employees about the
    appropriate use of Company computer resources and, monitor these
    resources to insure that they are being used in accordance with
    this policy.

    EMPLOYEES - Employees are expected to use Company sponsored
    computer resources and their time at work (as determined by their

                        Digital Equipment Corporation

PERSONNEL                             Section 6.54           
Page  3 of 4           
POLICIES AND PROCEDURES               Effective 01-DEC-90    

                Proper Use of Digital Computers, Systems and
                                   Networks

manager) in accordance with this policy and to support Company
    business activities.  In addition, employees should report all
    potential misuse to their manager.

    CONFERENCE MODERATORS - Conference (Notesfile) moderators are
    expected to periodically review the contents of the conferences
    they moderate to insure that material contained in those files
    meet the letter and spirit of this policy. Moderators are expected
    to remove any material that does not comply with these standards,
    and should report violations of this policy to the appropriate
    systems or cost center manager.

NOTES FILES/CONFERENCES

Digital provides systems to its employees to maintain computer
conferences (Notes files) in direct support of Company business (i.e.,
product development, financial analysis, business planning, etc.).
Digital also permits access to these systems to communicate matters of
opinions and common interests.

In all cases a computer conference must have an identified conference
moderator as defined above.  Where the conference directly supports
the Company's business, the conference moderator and the responsible
systems manager may elect to restrict access to the conference.
Digital classified information may only be placed in a conference with
restricted access.  Conferences created to communicate matters of
opinion and common interests may not be used for solicitations of any
kind, and must be open to all employees.

In addition, these conferences may not be used to promote behavior
which is contrary to the Company's values or policy (i.e., they may
not promote discrimination, disrespect for the individual, violence,
etc.).  It is the responsibility of employees who utilize such notes
files to do so in a manner consistent with both the letter and spirit
of this policy and the Company's values.  The Company reserves the
right to terminate any notesfile it believes is inappropriate or in
violation of this policy.


                        Digital Equipment Corporation

PERSONNEL                             Section 6.54           
Page  4 of 4           
POLICIES AND PROCEDURES               Effective 01-DEC-90    

                Proper Use of Digital Computers, Systems and
                                   Networks

RESPONSIBILITY FOR CONTENT OF MESSAGES SENT OR POSTED ON NETWORK

Messages mailed or posted over the Digital network are the
responsibility of the original author.  Posting these materials in a
notesfile/conference without the explicit permission of the author is
prohibited and is a violation of this policy.

When forwarding messages or posting them to conferences, removal or
falsification of the original message header (which indicates the
author) is prohibited.

| This policy covers all messages addressed to individuals and
| organizations.  It is not intended to restrict the distribution of
| general announcements, course listings, etc., or messages originally
| posted on external bulletin boards such as Usenet news groups.

COMPANY ACCESS

Because networks, computer systems and accounts are resources the
Company provides to its employees, the Company reserves the right to
access those networks, systems and accounts as it deems necessary.

POLICY VIOLATIONS

Managers who suspect systems are being used improperly should discuss
the problem with the employee in question and, if appropriate, involve
security.  In cases where improper use has been clearly established,
the employee should be dealt with in accordance with the Corrective
Action and Disciplinary Policy (6.21).


REFERENCES







                        Digital Equipment Corporation

I think my favorite jam is peach.  Years ago when I lived in Colorado, a friend
picked me up a bushel of fresh peaches from Grand Junction...I made a whole mess
of peach jam, that was if I may say so myself, excellent.  However, if I'm 
eating an english muffin, I tend to prefer orange marmalade.


My dad used to take a mess of peanut butter, mix grape jam with it (mix 'em
up together) and put it on toast...yowza that was grate!!




Jim

    2 down 3 to go :^) So far this past week I've stopped twice 
    to help disabled motorists always wondering while pulling
    over just how much help I'll be as I'm no car buff. However
    they were both easy fixes, one being out of gas and one
    being a broken jack. What I was wondering is if I can mix
    and match. Like can I now give out 3 hugs or tell three
    people I love them? Or tell one person I love them and 
    give out two hugs, etc...?
    
    I often wonder what these people I'm helping might be
    thinking about my dancing skeletons sticker :^)
    
    peace,Andy

I enjoy peanutbutter on celery....

Especially super chunk!

re:  unbroken love chain

Ok, there ya go!!  You'll just have to do it the old fashion way and not
electronically in case someone in corporate doesn't have a sense of humor
(or doesn't appreciate people hugging electronically ;-)

And now back to the digression...

Has anyone ever tried raspberry jam made with wine??  Now that's what I
call a fine jam!!  We picked some up at a winery up near Bodega Bay last
year, and it's just the most incredible tasting concoction you will dare
to imagine!!  mmmmm...MMMMMM!!

peace,
t!ng

Here's one for ya...instead of jelly or jam...take a package of jello
(whatever flavor..I like strawberry)...mix it with sugar (don't add water!)
and put it on toast!  Nice change from jam, a little different than cinammon
and sugar...




Jim

re:  jam

Why I prefer dead jams :)

couldn't resist....
bob

actaully my fave is strawberry .....

    OK, the big question of the day is:
    
    What the hell is the difference between jelly and jam???!!!  I've
    always wanted to know and I'll gladly put this in the Ask The Universe
    note if need be!  I'm serious now!  :^)
    
    dave

Oooh T!ng ... it's a good thing I am sitting here enjoying my lunch because
your notes sound scrumdiliumpscious!  As opposed to Jim's, which just sound
wierd.  :-)

Lisa

	jelly is made with fruit juice, jam is made with the fruit too...

re:  <<< Note 148.112 by SPOCK::IRONS "Shadow boxin' the apocalypse" >>>

>    What the hell is the difference between jelly and jam???!!!  I've
>    always wanted to know and I'll gladly put this in the Ask The Universe
    
I always thought jelly is the kind that stays together in one piece if you
throw a wad of it across the room.  All it'd do is land and wiggle a little.
Whereas, if you throw a wad of jam across the room, it'll do its best to
splatter all over your favorite tie-dye, giving it a more psychedelic
pattern than you can ever manage using regular dyes and making you wish
the pattern would stay through a wash.  That's just my perception, of
course 8-).

peace,
t!ng

this theory sounds like it needs to be tested!  Everybody bring thier choice 
of jelly and jam to er, um, Fog's house (yea, that's the ticket!) tonight and
commence throwing!!!!!  :-)

    Hi folks
    
    Yes,.. its me,.. the ex-noter
    
    I guess I should say that all of you can stop sending me mail
    urging me to not go away. Please understand that I did not get
    scared off by what happened here. I merely decided to do what
    someone suggested in some note and that is to sit back, take stock
    of myself, and gather a deep breath before doing any more grateful
    noting.
    
    FWIW, I have tried unsuccessfully to work things out with Mary
    off line. We just don't see eye to eye. I hope that soon she and 
    Dave will feel like rejoining the "fun".
    
    Right now, I think its better for me to just read until I get 
    a better perspective on things. But I guess all you would be
    personal attackers out there should know that I'm still on the prowl.
    I will fight to the death for everyones right to express themselves
    freely in here. I can't give up on what I thought/think is a great
    notesfile where this freedom of expression is enjoyed by all, and if
    I have to flame someone to do it,.. I'd do it again. I've come to the
    conclusion that it is worth fighting for.
    
    							/
    
    PS And now,. all you people who were glad to see me go can write me 
       hate mail urging me to get the @#$%^& out!!! 
    
    

    Ahhhh....good to have the ol' slash-mon back!
    
    	~dave
    

    re:114
    
    My kids have been putting pb in their celery too and I
    decided to give it a try just to see how weird they were
    and the result was...
    
    
    pretty darn good ! ;^) but then again I like just about
    everything that's edible.
    
    peace,Andy

I love PB on celery!!  It's the BEST!  I also love exotic butters
like Cashew and Macadamia Nut Butter and Almond Butter.  It gives
good ole Peanut Butter a bit of old-fashioned American competition.
8-)

peace,
t!ng

PB on celery is definately great but personally I think banannas
and apples with PB is far better!  Try it if you haven't!!

Lisa

I od'd on bananas and PB years ago, but apples and PB...magnifico!




Jim

    ooooooooooo my I just got back from sugarloaf and had a great time
    (bob h. you were right they have tons of snow) and I just finished this
    whole note...no more time for comments cept......
    
    I LIKE PEANUT BUTTER ON ICE CREAM
    
    rich

Re:        <<< Note 148.123 by WFOV12::BUTZE "Do the trouser press baby" >>>
>                           -< hug some pnut butter >-

		this sounds sticky.

;^)

    re. -1
    
    HA!  Lisa, you are such a NUT.
    
    :-) :-)
    
    Scott g

    sticky but ooooooooo what fun when its errrr licked off
    
    rich

    what do you mean "hit you?"  i just want to be there to take pictures
    when it happens!  :^)
    
    				da ve

    just black/whites and no videos
    
    
    rich

    I heard this.  If a venue hosting the Dead agrees to forgo
    serving alcohol at the show, the Dead agree to give back
    to the venue 25% of the fee they'ld otherwise collect for
    their performance.  This has been their policy for 9 months
    or so.  So far the only venue that hasn't bought into it
    is Shoreline (which, by the way is owned and operated by the
    city of Mountain View which is notorious for complaining about
    roudiness and crimes purpetrated in and around their ampitheatre
    when the Dead play there).
    
    Kendunno
    

re:< Note 148.129 by WLDWST::BLAKKAN "Let it shine." >
                                   -< sound >-

>    I heard this.  If a venue hosting the Dead agrees to forgo
>    serving alcohol at the show, the Dead agree to give back
>    to the venue 25% of the fee they'ld otherwise collect for
>    their performance.  This has been their policy for 9 months

Hmm, this is an interesting point, and new to me.  I think it's a great idea. 
I also don't think too many people would be disappointed if there was no beer
at shows.  Personally, I just get a large soda and I'm set for the show.  Beer
is generally too expensive at arenas, and it's usually some piss-water brand.

Besides, I never strongly associated alcohol usage with the deadhead scene,
although there is quite a bit.  You can always get whatever beer you want in
the parking lot, and get loaded before the show! :-)

Incidentally, some guy in the row behind us puked behind Dave Clark and I at
Nassau.  I found out after the fact why I happened to see this guy with his
head between his knees at one point.

>    So far the only venue that hasn't bought into it
>    is Shoreline (which, by the way is owned and operated by the
>    city of Mountain View which is notorious for complaining about
>    roudiness and crimes purpetrated in and around their ampitheatre
>    when the Dead play there).

Hypocrisy pervades government.

adam

    an input from a beer guzzler....
    I agree with -1. If you want good
    beer, bring it in a cooler, if there is swill sold inside, it is
    usually just that...swill. (the buds sold at Fiddlers Green in Denvah
    are gross...and I don't mind A bud once in awhile) I usually like
                                ^^^
    to have the cold ones AFTER the show...them waitin for me in my
    car cooler, buried in ice, is just the right incentive to leave the venue 
    And I always like havin extras for the heads that look really in
    need.            A real highlite for me in Vegas was settin on the
    tailgate drinking COLD hienikens with that vegas full moon arisin
    over the desert mountains with 30,000 deadheads all howling like
    wolves!!!! people said they could hear the howls for miles!!! 
    It wouldnota been the same without the cold ones.......                   
    
    rfb (iamanalcoholiciadmitthatfreely....the phrase one must admit
    to when joining AA)