Conference rdvax::grateful

    Interestng note.
    
    I too have grave doubts that reality exists as a solid construct as we
    have always traditionally believed.
    
    mary

	This discussion about reality, I just don't know... 

	Reminds me of a wierd saying:

	"Reality: it's the next best thing to being there"


	Ponder *that* ;-)

RE:  .0

Well, all I can say is that you are addressing a key issue.

You claim that the ultimate reality (if you will) has to be relative
and individual.  I still don't understand exactly on what you base
this claim.  I assume it is because you think it is not possible (ie,
you have a belief that is is not or an opinion that it is not).  Well,
it's an interesting thing to discuss I suppose but the proof is in the
pudding.  It is possible to find out for oneself.


Of course, if you have an idea of a permanent, unchanging enitity
called the self, then all perceptions, feelings, thoughts will be
filtering through this collection of ideas about the self.  If you are
able to perceive, feel, think without this idea about a self (which
automatically splits the world in self and other, into subject and
object), then seeing "what is" is possible.  Is it possible to with a
still and totally open mind, just see, just be with whatever arises?
I think that is the key question.  And if one can just see, like this,
does what should be done automatically appear without thinking?  Does
it engender wisdom and compassion in each moment?

Is is possible to perceive what is without the idea of self or the
idea of no-self, before thinking, before no-thinking, before subject
and object, self and other, without attachment to spiritual
attainment, to having great and exotic experiences, but just being
without any preconceived ideas, the biggest one being of a separate
enitity called the self?

For many years, I sought after drugs and later meditation and
"mysticism" to have some great wild experience that would take me
somewhere else and break this chain of suffering which arises from a
self-centered view.  Today, I find the ordinary is extra-ordinary.
And the extra-ordinary is ordinary!  When I am paying attention
anyways which is not perhaps as often as I would like.  It seems to
take alot of work.

Questions about reality are interesting to speculate about but when it
is possible to find out oneself about such things, that to me seems a
better route.

have fun exploring,
peace,
john

john,

   I obviously don't have it as your play on words confused me.  In nature
where I sit and "ponder" the universe and my life I see to be able to remove 
the self and connect a little with what you are speaking of.  I never feel
that it is another reality or dimension though, rather a clearing of the fog.
It occurs to me the "truths" are not hidden in a different reality, but are
the unobvious obvious stuff.  It seems we have clouded ourselves right out
of the view.

   I think I am agreeing with something you said, if not I am saying it, in
that I see no, or very little, connection between drugs and the ability to 
see these (i've been using the word truths here but don't think it is correct,
so throw in a word).  I believe it may be a false view that makes one think 
they are doing something that perhaps they aren't.  I do believe it may lead
one to the realization that clearer thought is possible.  

  john 

RE: <<< Note 145.4 by OURGNG::RYAN "Spent my life seeking all that's still unsung" >>>
             -< sometimes it all seems so very simple and obvious >-

>the self and connect a little with what you are speaking of.  I never feel
>that it is another reality or dimension though, rather a clearing of the fog.
>It occurs to me the "truths" are not hidden in a different reality, but are
>the unobvious obvious stuff.  It seems we have clouded ourselves right out
>of the view.

Yes, that's a good way to put it...  I might say our self-centered
views and ideas have clouded out true selves out of view...


>see these (i've been using the word truths here but don't think it is correct,
>so throw in a word).  I believe it may be a false view that makes one think 
>they are doing something that perhaps they aren't.  I do believe it may lead
>one to the realization that clearer thought is possible.  

Perhaps... Many people report a interest in LSD and drugs of that ilk
helped foment an interest in lifting the fog (as you put it) by
glimpsing that there is some kind of fog or at least that the fog is
not so solid as one originally thought.

    
    Well... through out time many holy men, witches and shamain have used 
    drugs in magickal work and in visioning.  Since all plants come from
    the Great One and since all realities come from the Great One and since
    all perspectives and ways of seeing show the same truth... I really
    think it is up to the seeker and no one else... but thats just my
    opinion.
    
    mary

           
           
                                 MIRAGE
              
              
              Distant mirage contains crystal goblets of souls:
              Each so perfectly shaped and  compounded into
                              one reality -       
              Vulnerable and destined to be shattered
              By the opaque blindness of one deity.
              
              Distant mirage contains crystal essences of thoughts:
              Manipulated and distorted by the whims of
                              one reality -       
              Conformable and destined to be shattered
              By the transparent spontaneity of one soul.
              
              Distant mirage contains crystal worlds:
              Superficial beauty covering inner darkness of
                              one reality -       
              Unsettled and destined to be shattered
              By the profound clarity of one thought.
              
              Distant mirage contains crystal reflections:
              Each unique only in the multiplicity of
                              one reality -       
              Divisible and destined to be shattered
              By the ultimate enlightenment of one world.
              

						- 1983

    re: .7
    
    That's really nice T!ng....
    
    re: .3
    
    John, I think you're almost at the point where you understand my point
    of view.  Yes you are correct in that my belief in relative and
    individual realities is just that - my belief/opinion and I definitely
    don't propose it to be a claim.  This might get a little confusing, but
    I also believe that your belief/opinion in a reality that "is"
    effectively creates this reality, much in the same way that I think  
    a person's belief in Jesus as God, the Messiah empowers this reality
    for the people who believe in it.
    
    when you say - 
    
>you have a belief that is is not or an opinion that it is not).  Well,
>it's an interesting thing to discuss I suppose but the proof is in the
>pudding.  It is possible to find out for oneself.
    
    I'm not really sure how to interpret this...  Do you have some proof of
    a universal single reality that you can share with me?  I agree that it
    is possible to find out for oneself, (this is essentially my argument) 
    but do you think it's really possible to find out for others?   
    
>Of course, if you have an idea of a permanent, unchanging enitity
>called the self, then all perceptions, feelings, thoughts will be
>filtering through this collection of ideas about the self.  
    
    Close - I have an idea of a permanent, yet ever-changing entity called
    my soul and that all perceptions, feelings, and thoughts are
    influeneced by a spiritual reality or condition that exists as my soul.
    I believe the spiritual condition is unique to everyone and that this
    spiritual condition exists even if you believe...
    
>it is possible to perceive what is without the idea of self or the
>idea of no-self, before thinking, before no-thinking, before subject
>and object, self and other, without attachment to spiritual
>attainment, to having great and exotic experiences, 
    
    and when you say "just being" in the following - 
    
    >but just being
>without any preconceived ideas, the biggest one being of a separate
>enitity called the self?
    
    What is it that is you or a part of you that is "just being"? 
    Do you believe in something something like a soul or spiritual
    condition that is "just being", or do you believe one can exists as
    simply nothing in order to "just be"? It's my opinion that a person can
    seperate themselves from preconceived ideas and thoughts about self,
    but I also believe in the soul and the inability to seperate oneself
    from the spiritual condition of the soul....  It's an interesting
    thought, maybe I'm just having a lot of trouble grasping the idea of
    "being" nothing, and at the same time seeing something, like when you
    say - 
    
>able to perceive, feel, think without this idea about a self (which
>automatically splits the world in self and other, into subject and
>object), then seeing "what is" is possible.  Is it possible to with a
>still and totally open mind, just see, just be with whatever arises?
>I think that is the key question.  And if one can just see, like this,
>does what should be done automatically appear without thinking?  Does
>it engender wisdom and compassion in each moment?
    
    Don't get me wrong, because I agree that one can just see and that
    avenues for action and thought will automatically be presented, but
    these avenues will be unique to each person (or "soul" if you will), and
    the wisdom and compassion of each moment is determined by the spiritual
    condition - and please don't ask my to define the spiritual condition,
    because, to me, the spiritual condition is the reality that just "is"
    within each soul, is without seeing, without seeing whatever arises,
    without seeing avenues for action or thought, without time or moments 
    for wisdom and compassion.... 
    
    I do enjoy evaluating my ideas with an open mind, so keep it coming and
    let me know what you think and why....
    
     
    
    

RE:          <<< Note 145.8 by IMTDEV::INGALLS "Earth Day - Every Day" >>>
                    -< Hmmm... More rambling thoughts.... >-
>    I'm not really sure how to interpret this...  Do you have some proof of
>    a universal single reality that you can share with me?  I agree that it
>    is possible to find out for oneself, (this is essentially my argument) 
>    but do you think it's really possible to find out for others?   

Perhaps this just a question of semantics, on how you define
individual reality and ultimate reality, etc...

I have no proof to offer.  Only to urge people to find out for
themselves why they are here, what is life and death, why is there
suffering, what does it mean to be a human being (if they are
interesting in such issues).  

>    Close - I have an idea of a permanent, yet ever-changing entity called
>    my soul and that all perceptions, feelings, and thoughts are
>    influeneced by a spiritual reality or condition that exists as my soul.
>    I believe the spiritual condition is unique to everyone and that this
>    spiritual condition exists even if you believe...

But if there is this idea about something, it is possible to see
without already having an opinion?  In other words, does the idea
impede the direction perception of what is?  Are beliefs necessary?
They do seem to get us into a lot of trouble  ;-)
   
    
>    What is it that is you or a part of you that is "just being"? 

That's the interesting question!!!  When there is no observer and
thing being observer, when they are one, where is the you and the
other?  Is it possible to experience this?  Many people don't think
so.


>   Do you believe in something something like a soul or spiritual
>    condition that is "just being", or do you believe one can exists as
>    simply nothing in order to "just be"? It's my opinion that a person can
>    seperate themselves from preconceived ideas and thoughts about self,
>   but I also believe in the soul and the inability to seperate oneself
>    from the spiritual condition of the soul....  It's an interesting
>    thought, maybe I'm just having a lot of trouble grasping the idea of
>    "being" nothing, and at the same time seeing something, like when you
>    say - 

When you are being nothing, are you being nothing or being everything?
   
>    Don't get me wrong, because I agree that one can just see and that
>    avenues for action and thought will automatically be presented, but
>    these avenues will be unique to each person (or "soul" if you will), and
>    the wisdom and compassion of each moment is determined by the spiritual
>    condition - and please don't ask my to define the spiritual condition,
>    because, to me, the spiritual condition is the reality that just "is"
>    within each soul, is without seeing, without seeing whatever arises,
>    without seeing avenues for action or thought, without time or moments 
>    for wisdom and compassion.... 
    
 
Yes, I agree with this (although I don't quite have the concept of
soul that you do). Many of these things are hard if not impossible to
describe in words.  Certainly we all have our character and situation
and history to contend with.

It is a wonderful thing to be able to feel this "just doing" what
needs to be done.  For me, it seems to happen most often when working
with sick kids.  In my new solo show that I am doing now, I open it up
with a clown bit where I start dusting off the stage (complaining
about the dust on the stage, etc).  Then I start dusting off the
people in the audience as I go around with a big smile on my face
goofing the whole universe, the whole ridiculous seriouness of the
whole human race including myself.  So last time, I go into the
audience and start dusting people off saying "DOESN'T YOUR MOTHER DUST
YOU? and WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU WERE VACUUMED YOUNG MAN? and HOW
ABOUT A SHINE SIR (for bald guys).  Well, I went around to every kid
in the audience last time and got such amazing smiles and laughs from
every single kid.  Then I knew I was doing my job for that moment.
And at that moment there was no fear on how was I doing, how was the
bit going over, what was I going to do next, what am I having for
dinner tomorrow!

I think I've said quite enough over the last few days so I'll shut up
now!  [Mary, is that a sigh of relief I hear? ;-)]

peace and hugs,
john

    Wait wait wait a second John,.. you can't shut up yet!
    
    Besides,.. when its time for you to shut up,.. I'll let you know %^)
    
    But seriously (HA!)
    
    About this when you're "just being" ,.. adn at that point what is
    it about you that is "just being".
    
    This is very interesting and thought provoking. The easy answer
    to me is that it is your soul or spirit that is "just being".
    But the difficult question that immediatyely follows then is
    what is the soul? I don't know. But don't shut up yet ,.. lets talk
    about this..
    
    The soul as ??? ( sorry,.. I'm spacing on your name) desdcribed it is
    pretty much the way I believe it to be. However, I do believe that the
    soul is seperable from the rest of "me". This is based on some
    personal experiences which I think the thought police would love to
    hear about but I guess they'll have to wait. If you know what I'm
    talking about, then I don't need to explain. If you don't, I propbably
    couldn't get it across to you anyway in notes so,.. sorry.
    
    Anyway, I do believe that the soul operating in the subconscious mind,
    can be ttally different and seperate from what ever the hell it is you
    think you are doing in the conscious mind. Have you ever had an
    experience where you're in the middle or about to do something and you
    suddenly realize that its wrong!. Where did the revelation come from?
    Its the subcounscious mind speaking out with words from the soul.
    
    Somebody mentionedd or questioned the idea of whether we are God, or
    can be God, or what. Well,.. if anything, our souls are capable
    of becoming part of something you might call God. In fact, our
    souls may be part of what is God now. Perhapos without us,.. and
    without all of our souls contributing to the idea of God, tahne there
    might be no God...???... my brain hurts already and I'm only 1/10000th
    of the way towards exoplaining what I started out to say,.. so I'm
    quitting now (as a cheer rises up from the nether regions)
    
    	But I know I have a soul,.. because my soul has looked dowen upon
    my body, and upon the world, and seen that it is noty part of this
    world.
    
    						/
    

re:  God

God is out if God = the Force, Jehovah, Buddha, or any tangible deity.
God is in if God = the summation of our positive vibes, and thus we, as
	a collective whole, becomes God.

Hmmmm....

peace,
God_part_17171717

�  God_part_17171717

  I'll bet Randy is God_part_17171718.

  ;-)

  IMHO there was some good quality control in the God_part_1717xxxx series.

re:  Note 145.12 by OURGNG::RYAN "Spent my life seeking all that's still unsung" >>>

>  God_part_17171717
>
>  I'll bet Randy is God_part_17171718.
>
>  ;-)
>
>  IMHO there was some good quality control in the God_part_1717xxxx series.

Thanks, John!!  8-)  So, ummm...what's *your* part number (if I'm not getting
too personal, that is 8-)  ;-)

peace,
t!ng...errr, I mean, God_part_17171717 8->!!

T!ng,

  I had printed out that poem you entered for later reading, as it looked good,
and it was excellent. It wasn't until later that I discovered you had written it.
Good job God_part_17171717!!!!

 john

Note 145.9                         
VIA::HEFFERNAN 
    
>[Mary, is that a sigh of relief I hear? ;-)]

No john, it isn't. :-)  I always enjoy listening to you.
    
    mary

re:  <<< Note 145.14 by OURGNG::RYAN "Spent my life seeking all that's still unsung" >>>

>  I had printed out that poem you entered for later reading, as it looked good,
>and it was excellent. It wasn't until later that I discovered you had written it.
>Good job God_part_17171717!!!!

Thanks, John!!  I wrote that when I was in college.  I don't know what came
over me.  I used to write a lot more when I was in high school (probably
because I used to get a lot of inspiration from just growing up), but I
haven't done too much lately since I've become "grown" 8-(.  I think I'll
just have to quit that mentality and try regressing 8-).

peace,
God_part_!7!7!7!7

RE:     <<< Note 145.10 by STAR::SALKEWICZ "It missed... therefore, I am " >>>


OK.  Slash, let me know when I can shut up!  ;-)

I think what you are getting at is the question of what is just being?
Is that correct?

Very good question.  Does there have to be anything just being?  Could
just being just be being?  ;-)

If there is something just being doesn't that imply a subject and an
ojbect?  Could just being be before this split between subject and
object.  A lot of people talk about oneness and the inter-relationship
between all things.  How can there be complete oneness is there is
selfness and otherness (which I think is implied if there has to be
something just being).  Do you see what I am getting at?  I'm sure
we've all had are moments of just being (for lack of a better word)
where self and other drop away, including our own self-centered
thoughts, desires, and concerns.  And alas, pretty soon someone :-)
gets back into the picture with its usual self-oriented mode of being
and direct perception is lost.  (This is my own experience at any
rate).

From what I have experienced I believe is is possible through some work
and effort to "cultivate" this state.  Of course, when you are trying
to do something, then there is a self that is trying to do something
or get something outside itself.  So, it is difficult I think.

You and Glen mention belief in a soul.  I don't know.  I'm not sure I
have the same concept or experience.  Is it necessary to name these
things that can't really be described with words?  It does seem to
result in a lot of problems.  I suppose if we are to intellectually
understand these experiences, perhaps it is necessary to try and use
words and concepts.  But they are in my view limited and prone to
error.  The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon and all that.

I guess, if you want to know how I describe it and I think it is the
same thing that you are talking about would be to say that it is my
belief that a quiet and still mind that is mindful and attentive will
know what to do, will see directly.  I believe that a lot of religions
have been insistent on naming this as something outside and
attributing a lot of human characteristics and projections on "it"
depending on the culture.  But I wonder if such conceptualization is
needed.  The important thing, in my view, to experience it.  This
whole business of trying to force people to be "good" or else they
will suffer after they die is not the most effective religious
doctrine.  If one knows what to do and I beleive this is the natural
state of every human being (although it is covered up by layers and
layers of desire, greed, self-image, fear, you name it).  When there
is just being, doesn't one know what to do without thought?  


We may just have different names for things, you call this voice which
you claim comes from the subconscious mind the soul (if I understand
you correctly) and claim it is separate from "me".  I look at it a
little differently and prefer to name it (if I must) as intuition or
an intuitive force.  And I prefer not to think of it as my individual
soul but more as a universal force that is neither inside nor outside
me but comes before that.

Also, pyschologists have drawn this line between conscous and subconsious
that is interesting and may be helpful but I really wonder if there is
such a line.  When one is very quiet, I think one can get access to
alot of the mind.  And I don't see them as different - only things
that have different levels of accessibility.  So I wonder if it is
possible or desirable or necessary (strictly speaking) to locate this
force in a particular place, if in fact, it may tend to obscure it
more.

But while metaphysical speculation and naming is interesting, what I
find most interesting is to experience this thing, this just being
(absolute)  directly.  And also to not get stuck there in that
experience but to express it in the relative everyday life.  And to me
that means being of service and being or should I say just being a
human being in the most fundamental sense of the word.  For some
reason, this experience of the absolute or following one's intuition
or seeing one's soul seems to engender wisdom and compassion.  An
interesting question is how can it be cultivated (if it can at all)
without getting into a state of spiritual materialism?

Personally, I find this cultivation if you will very difficult and
very hard and I find there is a lot of stuff to work through.  In just
anyone is thinking I am special because I can talk about these things
with some clarity  and have read a lot of books and so forth and have
done some of this work, believe me I am a mere begineer and can be an
absolute jerk at times and have all kinds of problem areas and hot
buttons that send me back to the whole thought-emotion stuck muck that
seems to drain away energy and perpetuate problems.  An interesting
question and one I forget alot is seeing that we are in the same
leaking boat, who can we help each other out instead of fighting with
each other or ignoring each other.

So I think perhaps we may be talking essentially about the same thing.
You can let me know if you want.   In any case, it's been good to
discuss it with you and I hope our discussion has been helpful.

peace,
john

    I used to think I could tell where I ended
    and the rest of the universe began.
    I know now that I cannot.
    Some of what looks like reality is merely a projection.
    Sometimes "projections" project themselves into the real world.
    
    
re .3:
  > Is is possible to perceive what is without the idea of self or the
  > idea of no-self...
    
    Can one ever distinguish between perceiving what is
    and the illusion of perceiving what is
    
re .10:
  > Somebody mentionedd or questioned the idea of whether we are God, or
  > can be God, or what. Well,..
    
    If you were, how would you know?
    
re .16:
    Growing up is greatly overrated, I hear.  I think I'll pass.
    

    Has anybody visited the Kripalu yoga Ashram in Lenox, Mass.?  I went
    there last night, it's a really neat place.
    
    -danielle

    
    i've never been there myself, but a friend of mine has visited several
    times...  she says it's like a bit of heaven on earth! :^)
    
    					da ve

    Yeah, it was really nice.  Everybody was so friendly, and I had a good
    time.  I'd like to go again in a few weeks or so.
    
    danielle
    

	re-1 Please elaborate

	I was born and raised in the mountains, but I've never 
	heard of Kripalu.....whateveritis.

    Kripalu is a form of yoga.  It was introduced by a man
    called Yogi Amrit Desai, or Gurudev.  He lives at the ashram in Lenox.
    Many people go there to relax and meditate.  My mom is really into
    yoga, and she used to always take me to the ashram in Adams Center, NY. 
    The ashram in Lenox is the main one in the United States.  People
    travel from all over to visit. You can rent a room to spend the night,
    or just visit for the day.   They have good vegetarian and natural food
    there, too.
    
    danielle

	More info on Kripalu can be found in HYDRA::DEJAVU ( I forget
	which note)
	
	Jay (KP7 or Select to add to your Notebook)