Conference rdvax::grateful

 Bob,

  Three thoughts:

   First - I mostly agree, but not as all inclusive as you concerning
all jokes regardless of intent or familiarity with the group, but that may
be a cope out.


� My twenty seven cents on the topic.  And if anyone's offended by 
� my opinion - tough!
	
�	Bob

   Second - I really like the above ;-), but

   Third -  it is sorta like "And if anyone's offended by 
   my joke - tough!"

   A serious question, as do tend to agree with you, is;

   If, as I believe, 99% of all humor falls in, one way or another, the
   categories you are against, would you like to see 99% of all humor
   removed??  Such as the You know you are a Deadhead when topic?
  
   john

    
    It doesn't seem to be all jokes that upset you though, Bob.  It seems
    to be woman oriented jokes.  
    
    And the last time, you reposted the joke in reverse... but no one got 
    upset by the reverse joke because none of the women cared.  They
    weren't threatened by it or offended at all.
    
    No offense intended but, it seems like you have a problem with women.
    
    Mary

� it seems like you have a problem with women

   Me too!!!!!!  and Mary I could certainly use some help, do you
charge by the hour to fix my psychosis?????  


   Pllleeeaaaseeee help mmmeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee,

    john who thought Phyllis' entry was true.  ;-)

    I totally agree, that is why I turn-off, or tune-out anything from
    Andrew Dice Clay, or the guy who "starred" in the canceled show
    Chicken Soup, and other comedians who rely on humiliation of an
    entire group just to get a laugh..  It doesn't matter to me if the 
    comedian is Jewish and is making Jewish jokes or if the comedian 
    is African American and making generalizations about other African 
    Americans just to get a laugh.  To me using a race, creed, color, 
    or religion to make a joke shows lack of imagination and and lack 
    of working harder to see the funny side of life. 
    
    I prefer jokes that lump together all PEOPLE not just one common 
    characteristic.  Like George Carlin's 7 words... or anything by 
    Steven Wright.  And how about the "Far Side" type of humor, its
    sometimes warped, sometimes sick but almost always hilarious, and
    can you tell me what race/creed/religion these characters are? 
    (do you remember, "Bummer of a birth-mark Hal") 
    That type of comedy can apply to just about everybody and doesn't
    have to insult our intelligence or degrade another human being.
                                                  
    Phew, I feel better, thanks.
    
    Joyce
    

    Note .4 was in reference to the base note.  But by the time
    I finished there were other noters.  It is just by coincidence (I
    think) that A.D.C was mentioned after notes .2 & .3 
     
    Joyce

    
    Hey... maybe I'm provincial but I think people should just mellow out
    and stop taking it all so seriously.  Life itself is little more than 
    a joke.  And if people have hangups... don't hang them on the rest of
    us, please?
    
    Nothing is too sacred to laugh at.. and no one.. as far as I'm concerned.
    
    Mary

    My opinion ... almost all humor can be construed as offensive if you
    choose to look at it that way.  While I agree that much of what is
    passed off as humor is tasteless, offensive, or not funny to some
    people, it can be taken too far ... both ways.
    
    If one looks at some of America's most successful comedians, they got
    to be successful by poking fun at actual events, people, and life
    situations.  If one chooses to be insulted by this type of humor, then
    one WILL be offended by it.  For example, a Jewish comedian making jokes
    about Jewish women could be taken to task as a sexist by some, while
    others, even Jewish women, see the humor without taking offense.  If
    you take the joke in the manner in which it was intended, then it's
    much more difficult to be offended by it because you realize first and
    foremost that the speaker was not trying to offend anybody.  This is
    much more difficult to do in a forum like notes, where inflection,
    facial expression, and timing are absent.
    
    For my own part, I take very few things seriously.  And so I can make
    (and take) jokes about religion (not anybody's religion in particular,
    just religion), politics (just another form of religion), work (there
    are some great DEC jokes out there), and life in general without
    getting offended (and hopefully without offending anybody).
    
    On the other hand, nothing turns me off more than a so-called joke that
    puts down a person or class of people (yes Bob, I'd agree with most of
    the categories you put in your list, just not as comprehensively as you
    do).  But I think the distinction needs to be made between humor and
    put-downs.  Where one draws the line between the two is sometimes a
    personal matter that says much about a persons values and sensitivity.
    But I think that intent means as much as content when it comes to humor.
    
    It's tough in a public forum like Notes to know where to draw the line
    between humor and offensive remarks.  Presumeably we have guidelines
    that tell us roughly where that line is.  But I think we all need to
    make an effort to "read between the lines" sometimes to determine
    intent also.  For example, Phyllis' list of "Rules" cannot possibly be
    construed as an attempt to put down men ... 'cause anybody who knows
    Phyllis knows she doesn't need "rules" to do that ... ;^) ... no, I
    mean, anybody who knows Phyllis knows that she doesn't have to put down
    men, they do it without her help ... no, er ... I mean ...
    
    But if you are offended by it you do have a right to express yourself
    accordingly.  You do not have the right to expect everybody else to
    agree with you.  And you do not have the right to enforce your beliefs
    on the rest of the reading community.
    
    Everybody has a different way of looking at things, and that includes
    our concept of humor.  I think it's incumbant upon all of us to be a
    little flexible in our views because we are sharing them with people of
    different views.  And I think that's got to work both ways.
    
    Believe it if you need it, if you don't hit NEXT UNSEEN ...
    
    								... Bob
    

    
    I pretty much agree with Mary.  There are jokes and comedians who I do
    feel 'cross the line' and I get offended.  But it doesn't happen often.  
    I think there's a difference between someone telling a Jewish joke and
    someone calling me a kike.  Maybe there's not.. but it certainly feels
    different.  
    
    I think just about everything can be laughed at also.. and should be! 
    Humor is a type of defense mechanism sometimes.. allows you to look at
    depressing things in a different way.. like all those 'tragedy' jokes.
    I don't think anyone really feels that the Challenger explosion was
    funny, but I definately think it helped to be able to laugh a little
    at a stupid joke about it.  
    
    Whatever...  lighten up.. it's only life after all.
    
    

Re: << Note 124.2 by DICKNS::STANLEY "What a long strange trip it's been..." >>>

>    It doesn't seem to be all jokes that upset you though, Bob.  It seems
>    to be woman oriented jokes.  

	Not true.  The only note on which I took official moderator
	action and set it hidden was an ethnic joke.

>    No offense intended but, it seems like you have a problem with women.

	Nothing like a (veiled) personal attack to add to the substance
	of the discussion, eh?

	But sure, it's obvious that gender issues are particularly
	sensitive for me.  That does not necessarily translate into "I
	have a problem with women".  Perhaps it simply means that I have
	a problem with sexism - in all its forms.

	Bob

re:                       <<< Note 124.4 by ISLNDS::TOMAO >>>
   
       
   > I prefer jokes that lump together all PEOPLE not just one common 
   > characteristic.  Like George Carlin's 7 words... or anything by 
   > Steven Wright.  And how about the "Far Side" type of humor, its
   > sometimes warped, sometimes sick but almost always hilarious, and
    

 While it's true that S.W. and G.C. don't use race/creed/religion exclusivly
they don't use pure "GENERIC" humor. That is to say they do poke fun at groups
and/or individuals. G.C. has many routines demeaning one religion or another.
S.W. pokes fun at women, sure he's not as crude as A.D.C is but then again
some one is bound to be offended. The Far Side is anti-hunting.

 Basiclly society today is so diverse  that you are bound to offended someone 
at sometime. Sure humor can be cruel but sometimes you have to remember the
person telling an implied *JOKE* is not really reinforcing a sterotype
but possibly he is saying how stupid it is. For example, do you think
All in the Family was glorifing bigotry, on the contrary it was ridiculing
bigots to show how simple minded they are in their opinions.

Shawn

Note 124.11                 
GR8FUL::WHITE 
    

    Bob... no personal attack was intended.. veiled or otherwise.
    
    Phyllis's list was far too absurd to be taken as a serious attack
    against men by anyone except those who are particularly sensitive
    about gender issues.
    
    I'm 46 years old and I don't need to have my reading material censored
    by anyone.  I'M AN ADULT.  We all are.
    
    If I object to some particular type of humor, I can press
    next unseen or turn off the tv or walk out of the room or ... if it
    REALLY bugs me, I can punch the guy out. :-) 
    
    		IT'S JUST A JOKE!
     
    All I'm saying is that we have to be sensitive about not forcing our
    own personal values upon everybody else... especially if we are in a
    position of power that enables us to do that if we so choose.
    
    Mary

    
>    Phyllis's list was far too absurd to be taken as a serious attack
>    against men by anyone except those who are particularly sensitive
>    about gender issues.

	I didn't take it as an attack on *men*, I took is as
	derogatory to *women*!

	Bob

    
    None of the women complained or were offended by it, were they?  
    
    Regardless... we don't need protection... we are ADULT women.
    
    Mary  

    Who was it that said ... "I disagree with what you said, but will
    defend to the death your right to say it" (Voltaire perhaps?).
    
    That's how I feel about this topic.  Bob has expressed his feelings on
    the subject ... I don't agree with all of what he said, but I do
    respect him for his feelings on the subject.  We could all (and I do
    mean ALL) stand to lighten up a little, both on the topic of humor and
    on the topic of offending people's sensitivity.
    
    FWIW - I've seen the "Rules" posted in many an office around Digital. 
    Without exception, it's posted in a woman's office.  So I don't think
    women see it as offensive in any way.  Personally, I think it's funny. 
    Now my ex-wife ... she woulda taken it seriously.
    
    ... Bob
    

Re:<<< Note 124.15 by DICKNS::STANLEY "What a long strange trip it's been..." >>
    
>    None of the women complained or were offended by it, were they?  

	No woman, apparently, has complained so far.

	Whether or not any were offended is indeterminate - 
	and irrelevant.
    
>    Regardless... we don't need protection... we are ADULT women.

	Protection?!  Say what?  Why does my expressing my (negative)
	opinion at what I perceive to be sexism constitute offering 
	"protection"?

	Bob

To each their own.  Personally, tell me just about any joke you want, no
matter the content, and I don't care.  I was actually responding to Bob's 
reply to the list of "woman rules" because I tought Bob's reply funny 
(specifically the word "barf")!!  Strange, but true folks...  I do like
"bathroom talk", and barf certainly falls in that category!

My experience with jokes is not to tell them in mixed company.  Grateful is
clearly mixed company.  That is my prerogative.  I will not tell a joke
in grateful unless it is truely "clean" ... no way...  to diverse of an
audience.  While I don't get offended by the Jokes I read in here, I would
not post them myself.  

Everyone should seriously consider their audience before writing ANYTHING !
Not everyone has the same set of values as you do.  Weighing everything is
important....


	JC

I was thinking this morning about the topics in GRATEFUL, over the past couple
of years, that have caused ... err, bad feelings I guess, or whatever you want
to call it.  This was my shower-time thinking, which tends to be very muddled,
as compared to the slightly muddled thinking that I retain for the rest of the
day.

I was trying to think of something common between all of them ... the only
conclusion I came to was that it seems like all the noters in GRATEFUL want
the best for whatever people/group they're discussing at the time.  That was
a nice thought for me; it reminded me of why I like this conference so much.

Here's what my tin-foil-trap of a memory came up with; definitely in scrambled
order, chronologically:

	"Girl" vs. "Woman"		What's best for women?
	Digital taping technology	What's best for deadheads & their tapes?
	Offensive jokes			What's best for society?
	WAR???????			What's best for the world?
	The Vending/Camping Scene	What's best for deadheads?
	?

I'm not trying to belittle the importance of any of these issues, or people's
opinions about them.  Just rambling I guess ... I'll stop now ...

- peace
  Dave

    .21 was a rambleing note worty of deletion...it's a good thing I
    lost the path to NECSC!!!
                
    ...but to furthur carry on a rediculous discussion.......
    
    Lenny Bruce, before his style became famous, used to open up shows
    calling everyone he could see in the crowd their derogatory cultural names
    "Nigger, nigger,nigger...boogie, boogie, boogie," and close the segment,
    (just as he wuz about to be lynched,) saying "If we all called each
    other those names until they didn't mean anything anymore...then
    maybe, just maybe a little black child wouldn't come home from school
    anymore crying because he wuz called those names!"
    
    Kinda warped, but there's some truth in that
    
    rfb                                                
    

    Re: 7
    
    What she said.....

When people can't laugh at life or their mistakes or things meant to be funny, 
not derogatory then the world gets into serious trouble. Things like the Gulf 
War and Iran Contra and overtaking Panama and Savings & Loan Crisis' and 
TVEvangilists start to happen.

People take life much too seriously. Lighten up and smell the roses.

Enjoy life and see the humor when it's meant to be there, stand up against 
wrongs against you or people, but see THE JOKE when its there.

Geoff

    who wuz it that said "Dose 'em if they can't take a joke"???

    Yeah, I can see a lot of other things to get serious about. If I were
    *real* bored with life, maybe I would get serious about jokes, but for
    now, I'll lighten up.  However, it is good to know that not everyone
    can see things the way you do, even if it's a joke.
    
    I sometimes go overboard with jokes at times, which I don't like to
    much and try to curv it a bit.  I can be a ball buster which I don't
    always like.  I developed it back in my cocky teenager daze.  I am
    slowly growing out of it.  And a funny thing is, I like Andrew Dice
    Clay, I wouldn't pay money to see him but I do like his act.  Why?  I
    laugh **AT HIM**  not at what/who he puts down.  There's a *big*
    difference!  I dought if this guy is like that all the time.  He'd be
    dead by any means by now, no pun intended.  I've actually known boys in
    high school that I've despised that were/are just like Clay. I couldn't
    laugh at them back then without the fear of being physically assaulted,
    but I can now.  I actually know someone now that's like Clay's
    portrayed character that I can say, unfortunately, I hate. He is the
    only person in the world I would seriously like to kick in the face,
    which really disturbs me, but I'm human and so are jokes.
    
    dave

re:       <<< Note 124.27 by SPOCK::IRONS "Shadow boxin' the apocalypse" >>>
   
   >    laugh **AT HIM**  not at what/who he puts down.  There's a *big*
   > difference!  I dought if this guy is like that all the time.  He'd be
   > dead by any means by now, no pun intended.  I've actually known boys in
    
 You said it Dave. I think the joke *is* the character not the contents
of the jokes. Kinda like Archie from All in the Family and Al Bundy from
Married with Children. As for Dice Clay in real life. He doesn't seem to be
that way. I've never met him but I have seen interviews with him.
He say that he grew up in Brooklyn "a shy, dorky jewish boy, who had no luck
with the girls."  (his words not mine.) Then  he started out in stand up
doing "clean" material and was be heckled to death every night. Then 
one night he hit upon the Diceman and it worked. Take it FWIW. He could be
full of sh*t and beleives everything he say. But then again if that's the 
case it wouldn't be comedy. 

Shawn

re:                      <<< Note 124.22 by CLOSUS::BARNES >>>

>    Lenny Bruce, before his style became famous, used to open up shows
>    calling everyone he could see in the crowd their derogatory cultural names
>...
>    maybe, just maybe a little black child wouldn't come home from school
>    anymore crying because he wuz called those names!"
    
Interesting.  I know next to nothing about Lenny Bruce, but this reply reminds
me of my favorite comedien, Richard Pryor. He uses race in his material (when 
he did stand-up) but he has a message:  racism should stop!    And he is
hilarious!

Without humor I'd tighten up, fade away into seriousness, and would have NO fun.
Please, lighten up.  I'm half Polish, and everyone knows there's a lot of 
Polish jokes around, but I don't get offended.  If someone calls me a dumb 
Polack in seriousness, then I'd get upset!   

Ken

    I agree with what Mary said in .13, and what Geoff said in .24
    
    We are adults Bob, and we don't need our reading material censored
    
    As Geoff says, you have to try to look for the humor. If you 
    only want to look for the put down, thats all you'll see.
    
    As far as what the hell we should do about this "problem" in
    grateful,.. I think the bottom line is that people are free to
    flame someone for making bad jokes,.. or jokes that "cross the line"
    If you put a "mean" joke in, you'll have to bear the wrath of
    Bob, or /, or ??? Perhpas we will beat you into submission and you
    will delete your tasteless crap. Perhaps we will discover that we are
    too sensitive in some way, and that maybe we should ighten up. In any
    event, we should just let people make their jokes. And we should
    also let people challenge the accep[tability of any note, joke or
    otherwise.
    
    moving right along....
    
    						/
    

    
    If we can't have jokes, we sure as hell can't have puns.
    
    ;-) 
    
    

And just what do you propose as PUNishment?







Jim

>     <<< Note 124.32 by BOSOX::HENDERSON "Gonna get there? I don't know" >>>
>                                    -< ;^) >-
>
>And just what do you propose as PUNishment?


Put the in the PUNitentry

Maybe then we'll have a captive audience?







Jim

	Yeahbut, can we CELL the idea ?

Well, I'm GUARDedly optimistic  :^)






Jim

    be careful guys...  Phyllis is a moderator now...  she has the privs
    to LOCK UP this note!  :^) :^) :^)
    
    				da ve

    
    Okay.  I deserved this.  I will repeat I am an idiot 50 times.  Okay?
    
    NOW STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Moderators also have deleting power, by the way. ;-) ;-)
    
    

Re;          <<< Note 124.38 by TERAPN::PHYLLIS "Wake, now discover.." >>>

    
>    Okay.  I deserved this.  I will repeat I am an idiot 50 times.  Okay?
 
	Uh, Phyllis ... we didn't HEAR you out this way!!  :-)

Yeah, I'm still waiting, too!







Jim

re < Note 124.38 by TERAPN::PHYLLIS "Wake, now discover.." >

>    Okay.  I deserved this.  I will repeat I am an idiot 50 times.  Okay?

	Hey Phyllis there's an easier way.  After all, we are a computer
	company!  Try:

10 FOR I = 1 TO 50
20 PRINT "I am an idiot."
30 NEXT I
40 END

		;-)

    You're using FORTRAN, you *must* be an idiot! ;*}

	Well, I called Phyllis yesterday afternoon but she couldn't
	talk .... she was too busy telling herself what an idiot 
	she is!  :-)

    
	hi folks...  
    
    pardon me for a moment while i jump in here and revive a topic that has
    been dormant for a couple of years...  a few recent incidents have 
    kind of nudged me just enough to come back to this particular
    thought...  
    
    recently, both in my personal life and in here, i've been encountering
    some jokes which made me chuckle but also made me question the
    apporporiateness of the comments...  jokes about sexual orientation,
    religion, reace, gender, national origin etc...as has been brought up 
    before quite often, there are some jokes that, imho, are not really worth 
    telling becasue they offend or cause injury somehow...  it made me
    think of good ol' Bob White's note of a couple of years ago...  while
    the words are not mine, i do agree mostly with the sentiments
    expressed...  
    
    please take note that my comments are not aimed at any individual
    and that a lot of what brings me to bring this up again is due to stuff
    that is happening around me in "real life" and not in here...  however
    a couple of recent jokes here helped so, here we are again...  using
    form feeds to hide potentially offensive stuff helps some, but i have
    to ask (and i have been guilty of this myself on occasion) if it's
    enough?  or if this kind of humore really ought to be propogated
    if it also propogates a bad image of the folks we poke fun at...
    i mean, we as deadheads get pissed at the state of colorado for
    enacting anti-gay legislation...  now we come on line and tell gay
    jokes?  isn't this a tad contradictory?
    
    you may agree or disagree, as is your right...  i really don't care...
    pardon me for pontificating, but i felt it was worth bringing up again
    and reposting Bob's original thoughts....
    
    
    			believe it if you need it...
    
    					da ve
    
    ps.  i am posting this as a "regular" member of the conference...  NOT
    as a moderator, and my opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions
    of other mods in htis file...
    
    
            <<< NECSC::SYS_CLUSTER:[NOTES$LIBRARY]GRATEFUL.NOTE;1 >>>
                 -< Take my advice, you'd be better off DEAD >-
================================================================================
Note 124.0                  Thoughts on "It's A Joke"                 43 replies
GR8FUL::WHITE "Without love in a dream..."           46 lines  13-FEB-1991 13:21
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	
	I'd like to dive right and talk about this.  I may at some time 
	withdraw from the discussion, but I feel pretty strongly on this 
	issue.
	
		"It's A Joke!"
	
	When one tells a story that demeans someone by sayng implicitly 
	or explicitly that because of:
	
	- the color of their skin they must be lazy
	- their religion and culture they must be shiftless and greedy
	- their gender they must be unpredictable and difficult to get 
	  along with
	- their national origin they must be stupid and dull witted
	
	Is it OK to excuse this with "Lighten up!  Get a sense of 
	humour! It's only a joke!"
	
	Not in my book!  Absolutely not!
	
	For a long time humour has been used as a tool to divide and 
	separate humanity.  Differences are exaggerated to make humour.  
	But this only serves to reinforce stereotype.  It only serves to 
	push people apart.  It only serves to further "us versus them".  
	It only serves to make "us" feel superior to "them".
	
	It does *not* serve to reinforce the dignity of each and every
	one of us!  It does *not* promote love of one's fellow humans.
	
	And trying to excuse this by saying "It's just a joke" doesn't 
	cut it any more.
	
	This is why I object and am offended by so much of what passes 
	for humour on this planet.
	
	People are free to speak as they please.  However I don't have 
	to like it or go along with it.
	
	And I'm obviously not shy about piping up when I object.
	
	My twenty seven cents on the topic.  And if anyone's offended by 
	my opinion - tough!
	
	Bob
	

    I'm with you, da ve.  I replied in the Joke note before I saw your
    comments.  Well said.
    
    Bud

    
    I have deleted my note in the jokes file.  Hope I didn't offend any
    folks who are especially religous, If so, I'm sorry
    
    	Mark
    

my 2 cents on this...


	each of us may belong to circles of friends that you know quite well
and you understand what is appropriate/inappropriate for that group.  this
allows you to perhaps tell some off-color jokes without offending anyone,
mostly becuase you know your audience.

	this is a public notes file, and, you never know who is reading out
there, where they are from, what religion they are, etc,etc,etc.  for this
reason, and for the same reason you wouldn't stand up in front of an unknown
audience and tell an off-color joke, every needs to exercise restraint in 
telling any sort of joke or posting anything that demeans _anybody_ in this
forum.

	me personally, i can stand all sorts of jokes.  but i know many who
are sensitive, and i respect those people...  a hurt feeling causes sadness
and anger, as i'm sure all of us know.


	

It's a good point, da ve.  None of us is consistent in what
we say and do.  We're all flawed enough to sometimes say
one thing, yet do another.  Lately I've taken care not to
be too quick to judge.

We meter our patience with each other's inconsistency by
the love we feel for each other.  Once in awhile, though,
it's a good idea to gently remind ourselves when we're
crossing the line.

tim

Its easy to think of this conference as a big poker table; its really more 
of a afternoon game of Whist; the Vicker's playing too...

    i thought about my joke alot today...you're right, i entered it soon
    after hearing it and even though i tried to soften it's presentation it
    was truely inappropriate...karma's funny that way...you think something
    you do can be so innocent and it can end up hurting so many so badly.
    
    i thank you all for helping me to redefine my own 'boundaries', to 
    understand what i should find is and isn't appropriate...i guess that's
    one 'lesson' in life that i've learned today...
    
    thanks again...                
    
    			dugo

Darn, I never even got to appreciate how tasteless it was!

PeterT