Conference rdvax::grateful

Re:  The Dew

The dead's anti-war song.  Appropriate now I guess.  The last time I heard
them play this was in Denvah, on Thurs.  Crowd was very respectful during the
quiet moments of the song... 

I listened to a couple versions on the way in this morning..Albany 3/26
and part of 7/2/88 Oxford...


Thanks a bunch to / for the chords...I played it a million times last night,
Sounded much better when I figured out that I was playing Am rather than Em :^/





Jim

re:       <<< Note 32.1 by BIODTL::FERGUSON "Is it just a waste of time?" >>>
   
>Re:  The Dew

>The dead's anti-war song.  
    
    Actually, it's more anti-nuke than anti-war.

    re .3
    
    	Aahhh
    
    	Close enough Ger...
    
    	;^)
    
    						/
    

A person named Shannon is refered to in the song Jack Straw.  Who is this
person?  How does s/he relate to the song?  Does anyone know what inspired
this song?

                 -< Jack Straw Brook has some nice Brookys ! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    	I would like to add some more confusion to the Jack Straw thing
    here.....In Westboro Ma. (where I grew up and still plan on growing up
    in) there is a story about an Indian named Jack Straw who happened to
    be Sir Walter Raleigh's right hand man....I always thought this was the
    Jack Straw ...... I'll have to go read more about him at the library...
    
    	Chris

    Jack Straw from Witchata (sp), that's nowhere near Mass. I'm afraid. 
                                                                        
    I never heard anything about Shannon though either. 
                                                        rfb
    (admitting he doesn't know all the words to jack straw)

    well Don't they have Indians in Witchata ? with a name like that Id say
    Indians came up with the name ! =8"'}  <--Indian smile feathers with a
    little war paint !
    
    Chris
    
    I will go to the Historin (sp?) place , they'll know more about this
    Jack Straw fella ! BTW in town there is a brook and a hill named Jack
    Straw so you might see where I get the connection ! just remember when
    I 1st heard JS my mind was most likly altered :')

    Wow Jc,.. 
    
    What a cooincidence
    
    I was just talking about this last nite withe Treemon and one many Dave
    
    Shannon is the "bad" guy of the story sa far as I can see.
    Shannon is the one who "jumps the watchman" and steals fomr him,...
    Shannon is the one who has to go to Tulsa to "settle one old score,
    once more for his pride"
    
    Shannon is the one who in the end got hanged for "playing for lives"
    and "cutting down a man in clold blood" which is why Jack had
    	to cut his buddy down (from the gallos) and "dug for him a shallow
    grave and laid his body down.
    
    								/
    

    Randy...
    
    	"Hurts my ears to listen Shannon it burns my eyes to see
    	cut down a man in cold blood Shannon might as well be me
    
    									/
    

re < Note 32.5 by MSHRMS::FIELDS "A TIME 4 PEACE,I SWEAR ITS NOT 2LATE" >

>    be Sir Walter Raleigh's right hand man....I always thought this was the
	^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

	who, according to Lennon, "was such a stupid get!"

    re. the last Shoreline show . . .
    
    As a confirmed nit-picker, I have to state that the correct title of
    "C. C. Rider" is really "See, See Rider."  I think the confusion set in
    due to a bad movie called "C.C. Rider" (or maybe that was just the lead
    character's name), which starred Joe Namath (I think).
    
    Jamie

Re:             <<< Note 32.12 by FRAGLE::IDE "now it can be told" >>>
                            -< See, See not C. C. >-

	OK Jamie, I agree with you ... you are a confirmed nit picker!

	:-)

    C C Rider, or See See Rider, is one of those old standards that's been
    through so many generations of changes that it's spelled several ways,
    none of them being the "one" way of spelling it. I've got it on many
    albums, and I've seen it spelled as "C C Rider" more often. I don't
    think it has anything to do with the movie.
    
    Scott
    

	re: -1

	Like Stagger Lee.  Or Stack-O-Lee, or ...

	...yet another one:



	IKO

	or is it:

	AIKO ?


AIKO is the Japanese spelling of this word (I worked with someone who has
a Japanese wife named Aiko.  She also had a vanity license plate with
her name on it.  For the longest time, they had NO IDEA why these people would
wave, stop and say "grate plate", etc... until finally, her husband asked!)

re:        <<< Note 32.16 by BIODTL::FERGUSON "the rainbow has a beard" >>>

> AIKO is the Japanese spelling of this word (I worked with someone who has

That guy from Africa (the one who likes the roaches fried in palm oil)
knows how to speak Swahili.  His MA license plate ends with  �IKO,
and he said in Swahili it means "I am".

fwiw,
Ken 

    re .14
    
    Yabbut it doesn't make any sense to spelled as C.C.  Not that all old
    folk songs make sense anyway . . .  But there is only one "correct" way
    -- MY WAY!  :^)
    
    Reaching way back to a Classic GRATEFUL discussion on Deep Ellum (Deep
    Elem, etc.), I came across a photo in a book on the blues that showed a
    picture of Elm St. in Dallas, Texas and said that the region was called
    Deep Ellum.  I also have an album entitled "Deep Ellum" which offers a
    short history on the region and its bad reputation.  BTW, the album
    contains a song by the New Bohemians called "Jamaican Lady" which
    predates their rapid rise and fall ("Ghost of a Dog" didn't do so
    well).
    
    Bring out your nits, I'll pick 'em for free!
    
    Jamie

    Found this on the net:
    
Article: 23808
Path: engage.pko.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!news.crl.dec.com!deccrl!bloom-beacon!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!wupost!sdd.hp.com!ucsd!deadmin.ucsd.edu!mechanics.ucsd.edu!napier
From: [email protected] (Jim Napier)
Newsgroups: alt.rock-n-roll
Subject: Smokestack Lightning Meaning
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 18 Sep 91 15:13:29 GMT
Sender: [email protected]
Reply-To: [email protected] (Jim Napier)
Organization: U.C. San Diego, AMES Department
Lines: 71
 
 
 
The question of what is smokestack lightning was never completely resolved
I don't think. Since I really like the Yardbird's version of the Howlin' 
Wolf song, I was intrigued enough by the question to check out the library
here on campus for books on blues history and music to see if I could come
up with an explanation. It turned out to be real search and after looking
through almost 20 books what I have is not really an exact definition but a 
reasonable conclusion about the meaning.
 
In a nutshell smokestack lightning is not a "thing" at all but a bit of
vague imagery coined by early bluesmen to describe the qualities of a
black woman's skin. The phrase "smokestack lightning" itself is only
one of several phrases along these lines that appear in songs even
earlier than Wolf's version. The full history of the reference goes
back to a recording named "Big Road Blues" made by a bluesman named
Tommy Johnson in 1928, which is basically a song about a man's
mistreatment at the hands of his girlfriend and talks about his leaving and
going down the road with someone else. Although Johnson's original version
didn't mention smokestack lightning, subsequent versions of this song were
recorded and modified by later blues artists including Wolf. It was the 
comparision of these versions that leads to the above conclusion about the 
meaning. Here are some examples-
 
From Howlin' Wolf's "Smokestack Lightning" 
 
	Oh, smokestack lightning shining just like gold
		Oh, don't you hear me crying?
	Oooh, oooh, oooh.
 
From Willie Lofton's "Dark Road Blues" 
 
	Crying, smoke like lightning, shine like pearly gold.
		Now don't you hear me talking to you mama?
	Oh, smoke like lightning, shine like pearly gold.
	Crying, I won't get in trouble, save nobody's soul.
 
From John Henry Brown's "Big Road Blues"
 
    She's smokestack black, and her teeth don't shine like pearls.
	And don't you hear me talking, pretty mama?
    She's smokestack black, and her teeth don't shine like pearls.
    Guess that nice disposition carries the woman right on through the world.
 
 
With the exception of these particular stanzas from their respective songs
each of these artists' versions are largely faithful remakes of Johnson's 
tune. So in keeping with the original subject of the song the references would
be about a woman and not about trains or lightning, etc. The author of the
book where I found these lyrics stated in comparing them that in Brown's 
version 
 
   "his 'smokestack black' stanza is greatly changed from any of the
    its more cryptic forms and makes good sense without any great loss 
    of power in its imagery".
 
So the author is concluding that "smokestack black", "smoke like lightning",
and "smokestack lightning" are all basically the same thing. This imagery
may seem a little convoluted but not if you consider that these were rural
country blues singers with a vastly different view of the world than we have.
 
If anyone's interested in checking into this themselves most of the useful 
information I got came from a book called "Big Road Blues:Tradition and
Creativity in the Folk Blues" by David Evans. Researching this question really
gave me a insight into some aspects of blues music I had never known much
about. If you're a big blues fan I would recommend you take the time to read
about the history of the early blues artists. 
 
 
Jim Napier
UC San Diego
    

     Does anyone know anything about "August West"? I also posted this
    on the net and one person said he definetly was a real person but
    couldn't remember who exactly, maybe an old movie star?
    
     I always wondered if he was/is a true life person after I also
    saw a company called "August West Industries"
    
    
    Sean

    I once met a guy who claimed to have spoken with R. Hunter about "the
    wharf rat". He told me that Hunter wrote the song about a bum in New
    Jersey. (Paterson, perhaps?)
    
    This guy struck me as a tad crisp, but maybe he spoke truth.
    
    John

    oh yeah...  good ol' uncle Augie!  :^)  haven't seen him in years...
    
    				da ve

	Noticed there wasn't a Dead trivia topic, so this seemed the 
	closest appropriate note...

	"The Race Is On" was a big hit for country singer George Jones
	in (about?) 1965.

	Bob

 Sure that wasn't Jack Jones?  I know he had a hit with it also sometime in
the 60's...




 Jim who's pretty sure about Jack, but George may also have had a hit too.

This is amazing ... see what you can connect to which Dead tune.

(From Shakespeare's  Richard II - and said by Thomas Mowbray)


	'an unstrunged viol or harp 
	 or like a cunning instrument 
		    cas'd up
	 or being open, put into 
		    his hands
	 that knows no touch
	     to tune the harmony'


In the strangest of places if you look at it right .....

Carol

    
    Cool!!!
    
    Dave

    Hmmm,.. kinda makes you wonder eh? :-)
    
    							/
    

    
    I  *KNOW*  !!!  Ain't it grand?  Think I should tell 'em I know?
    
    carol

    Aqahh,. they probably wouldn't listen,.. too busy reading Othello
    or some such ;^)
    
    							/
    

    re .25

    Neat-o!!  But, Shakespeare is well known for his double entendres and I
    wonder. . .  I don't know the play, and context makes all the
    difference, so what do you think?
    
    Jamie

    
    John Shep suggests looking at the 'Ripple' lyrics ...
    
    'if my tunes were played on a harp unstrung ...'
    
    :-)  

    Or "Attics of My Life" ...
    
    'when there were no strings to play, you played to me'

    yeah! isn't that wonderful?  *sigh*
    
    

    Yes... it's one of my favorites. :-)
    
    Lately though ... I've been drawn to Lost Sailor/Saint of Circumstance.
    
    	"hear the rich man whine, see the Dog Star shine, I've a feeling
         there's no time to lose"

    Being the sailor joe that I am, and havinglistened to LS/SoC many time
    (actually listening to the combination this afternoon) I'd swear it's
    "Hear that witch wind whine and see the dog star shinin', I got feelin
    there's no time to loose". The key being that "witch wind" not only 
    sound right, but it fits the context of the song a whole lot better
    than ritch man. 
    
    "Now my sails are fillin'
    The wind is willing
    I'm good as gone again"
    
    Geoff

    re lost sailor
    
    	cool lyrics and all,.. but I don't see how it connects to the
    Shakespeare qupte... and fwiw,.. I agree with "witch wind blowing"
    but I always thought it was the "dark star shining"...
    
    re attics,...
    
    		yes that fits,.. but it also fits Ripple:
    
    	"...If my tunes were sung on the harp unstrung..." 
    
    	so to me I (like Carol) concluded that it was prehaps inspiration
    for Ripple,.. although you nevere know.
    
    	You have to make sure where Shakespeare got his influcence,.. and
    perhaps Hunter went to the same well,.. rather than Shakespeare being
    the well for Hunter.
    
    	Makes for good discussion nonetheless...
    
    							/
    
    
    		

MILKWY::SAMPSON 
    
>    Being the sailor joe that I am, and havinglistened to LS/SoC many time
>    (actually listening to the combination this afternoon) I'd swear it's
>    "Hear that witch wind whine and see the dog star shinin', I got feelin
>    there's no time to loose". The key being that "witch wind" not only 
>    sound right, but it fits the context of the song a whole lot better
>    than ritch man. 
    
     Makes sense... "witch wind" sounds better anyway... I'll look it up 
     in Box of Rain.  
    
     It's the references to the Dog star that I find most compelling these 
     days though.

    	Actually, all I was saying was, ~I know that tune, it's playing in 
    my tape deck and even in my personal name. I don't think the lyric is 
    rich man~. I walked in with the tune on my mind, did a;no<cr> op gr<cr>
    and there was the note,completely out of context. 
    	I completely forgot about the Shakespear connection stuff so I don't
    know where to look for one. I'm pretty sure it's Dog star, mentioned in
    both LS and SoC. As for any deep underlying (because I couldn't spell 
    phylisophical) meaning, all I think there is to make of those tunes is
    that Loast Sailor is a bachelor and Saint of Circumstance is his moment
    of glory. (Gahd I even live the song.)
    
    	Ripple and Attics both seem to have a fit, but Ripple was the first
    thing that I thought of. When I saw the comment about attics I thought,
    "Oh yah I know that lyric", but when I read Ripple, "No, that's what I
    heard first". 
    
    Now I'm gonna crash
    Geoff
    

    Is there some significance meaning to the phrase "Dog Star" for
    sailors or other star gazers or whoever?
    
    					/not_well_educated_astrologer
    

    It's the planet Sirius.  It's associated with the Illuminati.  It's
    sometimes thought to be a source of ufo stuff.

    re .-1, .-2
    
    The STAR Sirius, which I'm sure you meant.  It's the brightest star in
    the constellation Canis Majoris, the Big Dog (which is right next to
    the Porch constellation <- redneck humor!).
    
    Jamfnordie

	I thought it really was a star - the closest one to Earth
	besides the sun...and that is why it is so bright.

	I think you can locate it by finding Orion and following
	the "belt" you will see the square of canis major - the
	brightest corner is the dog star...

	but this info is coming from some of those almost-lost
	brain cells...so take it for what it's worth...

	Debess

    re .-1
    
    It's a star, but not the closest to Earth (which is Alpha Centauri at
    1.2? light years).  I think it is the brightest star visible from
    Earth.
    
    There's a ton of methods of finding stars like the one you mentioned. 
    Another good one is to follow the arc of the big dipper away from the
    bucket end until you come to a bright star, which is Arcturus in the
    constellation Bo�tes ("arc to Arcturus").
    
    Jamie

    I wasn't sure about this Dog Star, and thought about it while I tried
    to sleep. I figured it was in Canis Major and probably bright. A bright
    distinct star would be good for navigation. And since the lost sailor
    is lost and is trying to find the dog star he probably wants to shoot
    the stars and get a fix on his location. 
    
    Woof

    Sirius lies fairly close to the Zodiac which is situated sort of
    equatorially. Therefore it's in the east in the early evening and in
    the west at dawn. To travel west at night in the Northern Hemisphere,
    keep it at your back in evening, above you mid-night, and in front of 
    you torwards dawn. To travel east, reverse the algorithm. Similarly to 
    travel north, keep the North Star in front of you; south, keep it at 
    your back. 
    
    As Jamie mentioned, Sirius is part of the constellation Canis Major.
    CM sits at the feet of his master Orion, and is seen looking up at
    him. Next to CM is the constellation Lepus (sp) which I think is
    a hare retrieved by CM and dropped at the feet of Orion. Orion
    is found chasing Taurus across the heavens nightly. 
    
    Fog'll probably keerekt me on all this, though. :-)
    
    - Gerry

    Orion... I should have known... that explains a lot.

    OK ... now I get it.  Cannibis major sits at the feet of Oreo ... doin'
    a dube no doubt ... but I thought Polaris was the brightest star ... or
    was that Poseiden ... ;^)
    
    ... Bobbb
    

    re .43
    
    Don't know about the puppy-dog connection, but Alpha Centauri isn't
    quite the closest star to the earth.  It's part of a binary system (or
    is there a third one, too?), and Alpha Proximi is somewhat closer than
    Alpha Centauri.
    
    If the poor ol' Space family Robinson & the Jupiter-2 had ever made it,
    we'd know all about those two :-)
    

	I thought the North Star was the brightest star.
	Is North Star == Sirius ?

	Ken

RE: .48

>    and Alpha Proximi is somewhat closer than Alpha Centauri.
 	 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

	You mean Proxima Centauri, perhaps?

Mark

	

>>    and Alpha Proximi is somewhat closer than Alpha Centauri.
 	 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>	You mean Proxima Centauri, perhaps?
    
    Umm... err..  yup, I did.  
    I think the loss of brain cells has reached critical mass.  I've
    reached the point where I've lost enough brain cells that I can no
    longer detect the loss of more brain cells.
    
    john_being_melancholy_about_getting_old_cause_its_his_birthday
    

	no, the north star is not the brightest but it is used for
	navigation because it is always in the same place - the north!

	Now this star you can find, I believe, by following the
	two stars that make up the edge of the "cup" away from
	the "handle" in the Big Dipper.  Follow them out from the cup,
	looking for the, I believe, orangish star (or is THAT the
	dog star that's orangish!?)

	Debess

	happy birthday, john...no matter how many brain cells you
	lose over the years, you probably will never forget
	the events taking place on this year's birthday :-(

	hope it's happy for you anyways...

	Debess

		Happy Birthday John!!!!

    re .46
    
    >Orion... I should have known... that explains a lot.
    
    Orion being close to Sirius explains a lot??  But they're only close
    when viewed from Earth, they're probably as far apart as we are from
    Sirius.
    
    re:     <<< Note 32.53 by OCTOBR::GRABAZS "black dirt live again!" >>>

	>no, the north star is not the brightest but it is used for
	>navigation because it is always in the same place - the north!

    Only for the next 10,000 years or so.  :^)  :^)
    
    In fact, Polaris is fairly dim.  It's very difficult to see from
    Central and Eastern Mass. due to light pollution.  I've never seen the
    Milky Way from Mass. -- it's a spectacular sight.
    
>	Now this star you can find, I believe, by following the
>	two stars that make up the edge of the "cup" away from
>	the "handle" in the Big Dipper.  Follow them out from the cup,
>	looking for the, I believe, orangish star (or is THAT the
>	dog star that's orangish!?)
    
    That's the right way to find it.  Polaris is the very end of the handle
    of the Little Dipper, which is made up of pretty dim stars.
    
    Didja know: the Big and Little Dippers are not constellations.
    
    Jamie Horkheimer

STUDIO::IDE 
    
>    Orion being close to Sirius explains a lot??  But they're only close
>    when viewed from Earth, they're probably as far apart as we are from
>    Sirius.
    
     I know but.... I'm on Earth... it's the right direction, you know?
    ... the right neighborhood...

Happy birthday, John!!  Now move this to the birthday topic, dammit!
;-) ;-) ;-)

peace,
t!ng

re:             <<< Note 32.56 by STUDIO::IDE "now it can be told" >>>
    
   >I've never seen the Milky Way from Mass. -- it's a spectacular sight.
    
    Very bright at my house. Wish I had a telescope.
    
    
    >Didja know: the Big and Little Dippers are not constellations.
    
    They are part of constellations - Ursa Major and Ursa Minor respectively 
    (Big & Little Bear). 
    

    re: <<< Note 32.57 by VERGA::STANLEY "what a long strange trip it's been" >>>

    
     >I know but.... I'm on Earth... 
    
    Aha!  The Mystery is solved!!  :^)  :^)  :^)
    
    >it's the right direction, you know?
    		     	
    Nah, just bang a left at the Crab Nebula Wormhole, slingshot around
    Betelgeuse, and you'll be there in no time at all.  Send a postcard! 
    :^)  :^)
    
    Jamfnordie

    re John
    
    	Hippy Barfday John,...
    
    re Mary
    
    	Hey Mary,.. welcome back to Earth! :-) :-)
    
    re Jamie,. and others,..
    
    	Thanks,.. I now realize that I am not the only one who
    doesn't know about the Dog Star :-) :-)
    
    	Geoff,..
    
    		FWIW,.. I've always taken "Lost Sailor" as a metaphor.
    	To me, the words speak literally of a dood losing control of
    his navigational and nautical skills,...but figuratively I've always
    connected that to people who lose their sh*t in life,.. like lots
    of 'deadheads' do... and the transition to St. of Circumstance where
    the words swicth to talk of "holes in whats left of my reason" and
    the like is what sort of confirmed that for me. 
    
    		Having said that,.. and also having taken a close 
    listen to those lyrics myself when I was figuring all this out,
    I 'hear' Bobby saying 'Dark Star' anyway,..
    
    		Of course,.. I could be wrong. It would be interesting
    	to know the real lyric here... either one seems to have potential
    
    
    									/
    

Re: .many

	Happy birthday, John!

	The Big Dipper and the Little Dipper ARE constellations.  They are
just different names for Ursa Major (Big Bear) and Ursa Minor (Little Bear).
There are only "part" of these constellations for sufficiently large (100%)
definitions of "part".

	Now, about Sirius being the brightest star visible from Terra.  It's
not even close.  It didn't sound right earlier today, and I just checked my
star globe.  Sirius is a magnitude 2 star.  Below, I've included a table of
magnitude 1 (brighter than Sirius) stars within 20 degrees of the celestial
equator (the same belt that Sirius is in), and their constellations.

Star			Constellation
-----------------------------------------------------------
Betelgeuse		Orion
Rigel			Orion
Procyon			Canis Minor (the "Hot Dog" :) )
Regulus			Leo
Spica			Virgo
Arcturus		Bootes
Altair			Aquila
Aldebaren		Taurus
------------------------------------------------------------
	Oh, and /-mon, it's astronomy, not astrology.

Mark

    Milkwy in Mass., I had to say something.  I've seen that many time, you
    should check it out from on a boat, with optics, on a clear night. Oh
    I can't wait to get my boat in the water
    
    	Hey slash, okay I'll agree with your interpretation, mine just
    chose a specific reason to have lost sight of (maybe cause I live it). 
    
        North star, yup it's north not bright. The big dipper is the
    pointer, but if you go the wrong way you'll hit Leo a really cool 
    constillation. 
    
    	Dog Star, Dark Star, could it be Rock star??? Maybe Bobby's looking
    for a rock star to help him sail a boat to a win in a race. 
    
    
    	Coffee in the morning, I think I'll go have some.
    Geoff

re:            <<< Note 32.62 by 11SRUS::MARK "Waltzing with Bears" >>>
>                 -< FACTS!?  We don't need no stinking facts! >-

I did some checking last night, and got some different answers . . .

>	The Big Dipper and the Little Dipper ARE constellations.  They are
>just different names for Ursa Major (Big Bear) and Ursa Minor (Little Bear).
>There are only "part" of these constellations for sufficiently large (100%)
>definitions of "part".

    They're called "asterisms."  If you go by H. A. Rey's (yep, Curious
    George's dad) constellation drawings, the dipper buckets form the
    blankets of the two bears, and the handles form the back.  Asterisms
    are popular star figures which are parts of constellations.
    
    Didja know: there's no Big Dipper (or Man in the Moon) in England.
    
>	Now, about Sirius being the brightest star visible from Terra.  It's
>not even close.  It didn't sound right earlier today, and I just checked my
>star globe.  Sirius is a magnitude 2 star.  Below, I've included a table of
>magnitude 1 (brighter than Sirius) stars within 20 degrees of the celestial
>equator (the same belt that Sirius is in), and their constellations.

    What chart did you use?  I checked three sources and came up with:
    
    Star		Apparent Mag.
    
    Sirius		-1.43
    Canopus		-0.73
    Alpha Centauri	-0.27
    Arcturus		-0.06
    Vega		+0.04
    Capella		+0.09
    Rigel		+0.15
    Procyon		+0.37
    Achernar		+0.53
    Beta Centauri	+0.66
    
    for the ten brightest by apparent magnitude (brightness as seen from
    Earth).  Betelgeuse is a variable star, which, at its brightest (+0.4),
    would be no. 9 on this list.
    
    Your list might be in order of absolute magnitude (absolute magnitude
    accounts for the distance from Earth).  Sirius' absolute mag. is 1.39,
    which places it way down on the list.
    
    BTW, Sirius is a double, with an 8.3 mag companion.  They're 8.6 light
    years from Earth.
    
    Our Sun is mag. -26.8!
    
    As for "which star is closer," the confusion comes in because Alpha,
    Beta, and Proxima Centauri form a trinary system 4.3 light years (25
    trillion miles!) from Earth.  Proxima is currently the closest.  Alpha
    is by far the brightest of the three, but it can only be seen from
    southern latitudes.  Sirius (8.7 l.y.) and Procyon (11.3 l.y.) are the
    closest which can be seen from the northern hemisphere.
    
    If anyone was foolish enough to read this far, what other Grateful Dead
    songs mention stars or other heavenly bodies?
    
    Jamie

	I read it Jamie..one of my favorites heavenly stanzas:
	 
	 Counting stars by candelight
	 All are dim but one is bright,
	 The spiral light of Venus
	 Rising first and shining best
	 
	 Oh! from the northwest corner
	 Of a brand new crescent moon
	 Crickets and cicadas sing
	 A rare and different tune:  Terrapin Station
	 In the shadow of the moon:  Terrapin Station
	 And I know we'll be there soon
	

	Debess
	
	ps - did I ever tell y'all that Debess means "the heavens"

    .-1
    
    One of my favorites also!  I'm still not sure what makes Venus' light
    "spiral," though.  :^)
    
    So, what season/year would those conditions occur?  We know that Venus
    was the evening star, the Moon was waxing crescent, it wasn't winter
    (crickets and cicadas were out), and the cicadas were probably at one
    of their seven year peaks.  The calculations involved are beyond me
    (or, rather, waaaay too much work).
    
    Jamie

RE: Ger: "Fog'll kerrekt me"...

	What he said (Jamie).   :-)

RE: Jaime, Deadsongs with the string "star"...   :-)


Dark Star by Jerry Garcia and Robert Hunter 4/75 
Sleep in the stars, don't you cry, dry your eyes on the wind.
the highway, the moon, the clouds and the stars.
The desert stars are bright tonight
The bastard barely swallowed it,
There he goes, now here she starts, I hear her cry.
kimmona like a crazy quilt stargown
before you start falling, get ready to fall,
but if you start falling, be ready to fall,
Dark Star by Jerry Garcia and Robert Hunter 4/75 
Dark star crashes, 
When I awoke the stars were out
If I had a star to give
Maybe I've got no star to spare
Strike another match, go start anew,
Seems one day I start to wonder
You know my uncle, he starts a friendly game,
My uncle starts winnin'; cowboys got sore.
One of them cowboys, he starts to draw
Woh! one good ride from start to end,
Stars were spinnin' dizzy, Lord
women round here start looking good,
women round here start looking good,
started moving my feet
with arms of ivy wrapped around the manzanita, stark and shiny in the breeze.
Counting stars by candelight
Sittin' and starin' out of the hotel window.
I'll get a new start, lead the life I should.
My eyes get filled so full of stars, I don't know when I leave

>          <<< Note 32.68 by CSCMA::M_PECKAR "outside the lazy gate" >>>
    
    well, you can prob'ly delete these lines... ;-)
    
before you start falling, get ready to fall,
but if you start falling, be ready to fall,
Strike another match, go start anew,
Seems one day I start to wonder
You know my uncle, he starts a friendly game,
My uncle starts winnin'; cowboys got sore.
One of them cowboys, he starts to draw
Woh! one good ride from start to end,
women round here start looking good,
women round here start looking good,
started moving my feet
with arms of ivy wrapped around the manzanita, stark and shiny in the breeze.
Sittin' and starin' out of the hotel window.
I'll get a new start, lead the life I should.

    next time you use a search command Mikey, don't forget to leave a space
    at the end of your string!  :^)  instead of "star" do "star "...  
    thenyou won't get all the "start" "stark" etc...
    
    					da ve

RE: .65 (Jamie)

>    What chart did you use?  I checked three sources and came up with:

	A celestial globe made by "Denoyer-Geppert Co., Chicago 40, U.S.A.,
Copywrite 1956".

>    Your list might be in order of absolute magnitude (absolute magnitude

	The key says "Symbols of Apparent Magnitude", and shows Sirius as 2nd
magnitude, and the ones I list (among others) as 1st magnitude.

	I tried to verify visually, but it was overcast last night.  I could
believe the globe is wrong.  I'll have to check some other sources.  

	Besides, I did say that facts were optional in this discussion. :)

Mark

re   <<< Note 32.70 by ROULET::DWEST "Dont Overlook Something Extraordinary" >>>
                                    -< :^) >-

>    next time you use a search command Mikey, don't forget to leave a space
>    at the end of your string!  :^)  instead of "star" do "star "...  
>    thenyou won't get all the "start" "stark" etc...
    
MY GOD, Da ve, then you'd miss "stars" !!!!!!  

    i sit corrected!  :^)
    
    					da ve

It's important, dam*it!

    re Mark
    
    	I asked about the significance/meaning of teh Dog Star which
    unless I am totally wacked is basically an astrological question.
    
    	Where it is, What color, whats it made of, etc are astronomical
    questions that I also am interested in,...
    
    	Besides,. I;m not a well trained astrologer or astronomer,..I just
    like dead lyrics and looking up at a star filled sky.
    
    	Geoff,.. please don't "accept" my theory at the rejection of your
    own. I'm not sure what the hell I'm talking about here.... its all
    hypothetical. We really need the real lyric,.. not a /dissertation
    	to figure this out... OK mon?
    
    	Anyway,.. I hope you all exercise your right to choose to have
    a good nonviolent weekend...
    
    						/Bill
    

re: <<< Note 32.75 by STAR::SALKEWICZ "It missed... therefore, I am " >>>
        
    >	I asked about the significance/meaning of teh Dog Star which
    >unless I am totally wacked is basically an astrological question.
    
    The significance/meaning of the Dog Star is primarily navigational
    and astronomical. It doesn't really factor astrologically.
    
    - Gerry

    Can I accept your theory without rejecting mine???
    
    	Who's got the lyrics??
    

    Oh gee thanks for enlighytening me on that GerG,..
    
    Let me try this one more time
    
    Is there any *cosmic* significance to the Dog Star?
    
    								/
    

re: <<< Note 32.78 by STAR::SALKEWICZ "It missed... therefore, I am " >>>
    
    >Oh gee thanks for enlighytening me on that GerG,..
    
    yer welcome. ;-)
    
    >Let me try this one more time
    >Is there any *cosmic* significance to the Dog Star?
    
    Other than that it resides in the cosmos, nope. :-) Keep trying
    though, /. :-)

    - Gerry

    
    Geez,.. yer so helpful :-)
    
    						/
    

	just got TFTV and I am loving it - this is a band I
	never heard - (when I started seeing them, Keith and Donna
	were already playing with them... I have not been much
	of a tape collector (until I've had this great connection
	called GRATEFUL) and don't believe I have any tapes from
	the 60's... all the albums I have have a different band
	lineup, even LIVE/DEAD has TC on keyboards) - this is a
	band I have never heard...

	when I realize it is from '68, I'm amazed - I'm amazed
	at the cosmic reality that these guys came together,
	found eachother somehow - and ended up melding their
	lives to play this music that sounds so good even when
	they were a new band - it amazes me how bands come 
	together...  and that they're STILL together this
	many years later...

	anyways, what I'm doing in this topic is wondering
	about "That's It For The Other One"...this has been
	one of my favorite, if not my very favorite, song...
	and this is the first time I've heard the whole thing!
	Isn't that weird.  I had read the words but never heard
	it before.  I didn't know it was written in the 60's.
	
	I'm wondering about the "he had to die"...is that Cassady
	they're talking about?  I thought he died in the early 70's...
	but since they come right out with "cowboy Neal at the wheel"
	I was wondering if this was also about him...

	Or is it something not quite so literal?  I think not because,
	since it was written before '68, they were still on this uphill
	part of their journey, life was pretty great, the scene around
	San Francisco had not gotten out of hand yet, I imagine their
	perspectives on life were pretty positive...

	Debess

TIFTOO was written after Neal's death, for Neal, about Neal: Neal all the way.

The classic "break out" of early performances would like kinda like this in 
current setlist parlance...

	Cryptical Envelopemnt-->
	The Other One-->
	Drums-->
	The Other One-->
	Cryptical Envelopement

    Cryptical envelopment . . . when da ve walks up to you and gives you a
    bare hug.
    
    Jamie

	a bare hug or a bear hug?  :-)

    Debess!
    
    Go out right after work and buy Anthem of the Sun.  You won't be
    disappointed!!!
    
    	~dave
    

    
    
    >>    Go out right after work and buy Anthem of the Sun.  You won't be
    >>    disappointed!!!
    
    YES!!!!  I AGREE!!!!
    
    One of my favorites.....
    
    Hogan

Ah yess.. the Other One.  To me the lyrics seem to describe the series
of extraordinary spaces someone passes thru.  The feelings are however 
described in third-person perspective.  So when "he has to die" our intrepid
Voyager is experiencing that 'ole Cosmic Death phase, you know, total death
of ego.  However after some time this feeling passes and there is a kind
of dramatic rebirth: "Sun comes up blood red/wind yells among the stone".

...

One time I was listening to the 5/2/70 Other One (Harper College).. this
was in college days myself so I was playing it on my reel-to-reel tape
deck which has pitch control.  Well it began to seem to me that the pitch
was off and I started fiddleing with that knob... big mistake! ;-) for the
rest of the tape (that day, practically) I couldn't get the pitch to where
it seemed right!!!

Josh

    
    HA!!!  
    
    all those wanting bear hugs line up on the left...
    
    all those wanting bare hugs line up on the right...  
    
    					@   @
    					  >
    					\___/
    
    					da ve_with_arms_fer_huggin'! :^)
    

    
    
     Can you get in BOTH lines????
    
    
       Divide Dave whos_going_afish'n_with_RFB_and_won't_be_back_for_a_week

>       Divide Dave whos_going_afish'n_with_RFB_and_won't_be_back_for_a_week

Hey, ya'll stay outta trouble!!!  you're goin' to Kansas?

    re .88 and .89  
    
    	 both lines can form up at SIS tomorrow!!!  :^)  and for those of
    you who can't make it there (what do you mean you live 2000 miles
    away???  that's a flimsy excuse if i ever heard one!!!! :^), it is
    NOT a one time only deal...  there's an unlimited supply!!!  :^)
    
    					da ve

    <<< Note 32.91 by ROULET::DWEST "Dont Overlook Something Extraordinary" >>>
                           -< :^)  getting psyched! >-
    
    Yeah ... me too ... I've been pretty bummed about having sold our boat
    lately, now that sailing season's here.  But the up side is that for
    the first time in five years, I won't be doing the JFK Regatta this
    week-end, so I'll see y'all at S-I-S.
    
    ... Bobbb
    

   Liberty   by Robert Hunter
   
   Saw a bird with a tear in his eye
   Walking to New Orleans---my, my, my
   Hey, now, Bird, wouldn't you rather die
   than walk this world when you're born to fly?
   
   If I was the sun, I'd look for shade
   If I was a bed, I would stay unmade
   If I was a river I'd run uphill
   And if you call me you know I will
   
   Mmmm, freedom
   Ooo, liberty
   O ... leave me alone
   to find my own way home
   
   I say what I mean and I don't give a damn
   I do believe and I am who I am
   Hey, now, Mama, come take my hand
   Whole lotta shakin' all over this land
   
   If I was an eagle I'd dress like a duck
   Crawl like a lizard and honk like a truck
   If I get a notion I'll climb this tree
   or chop it down and you can't stop me
   
   Mmmm, freedom
   Ooo, liberty
   O ... leave me alone
   to find my own way home
   
   Went to the well but the water was dry
   Dipped my bucket in the clear blue sky
   Looked in the bottom and what did I see?
   The whole damned world looking back at me
   
   If I was a bottle I'd spill for love
   Sake of mercy I'd kill for love
   If I were a juicer I'd binge for love
   If I were a coward I'd cringe for love
   
   Freedom
   Liberty
   Leave me alone
   to find my own way home
   

    
    Thanks for postin the lyrics, Ger.  I really like them.
    
    	Mark
    

    Hmmm, why do I hear Mickey's voice in his "Fire on the Mountain"
    rap when I read that song???
    
    PeterT
    

   Broken Arrow by Robbie Robertson
   
   Who else is gonna bring you
     A broken arrow
   Who else is gonna bring you
     A bottle of rain
   There he goes, moving across the water
   There he goes turning my whole
     world around
   
   Do you feel what I feel
   Can we make that so it's part of the deal
   I gotta hold you in these arms of steel
   Lay your heart on the line... this time
   
   I wanna breate when you breate
   When you whisper like that hot
     summer breeze
   Count the beads of sweat that cover me
   Don't you show me a sign, this time
   
   Who else is gonna bring you
     A broken arrow
   Who else is gonna bring you
     A bottle of rain
   There he goes, moving across the water
   There he goes turning my whole
     world around
   
   Can you see wat I see
   Can you cut behind the mystery
   I will meet you by the witness tree
   Leave the whole world behind
   
   I want to come when you call
   I'll get to you if I have to crawl
   They can't hold me with these iron walls
   We've got mountains to climb
   
   Who else is gonna bring you
     A broken arrow
   Who else is gonna bring you
     A bottle of rain
   There he goes, moving across the water
   There he goes turning my whole
     world around
   
   (c) 1987 Medicine Hat Music ASCAP
   
   Posted without permission.

   DAYS BETWEEN
   by Robert Hunter and Jerry Garcia
   
   There were days
   and there were days
   and there were days between
   Summer flies and August dies
   the world grows dark and mean
   Comes the shimmer of the moon
   on black infested trees
   the singing man is at his song
   the holy on their knees
   The reckless are out wrecking
   The timid plead their pleas
   No one knows much more of this
   than anyone can see, anyone can see
   
   There were days
   and there were days
   and there were days besides
   when phantom ships with phantom sails
   set to sea on phantom tides
   Comes the lightning of the sun
   on bright unfocused eyes
   the blue of yet another day
   a springtime wet with sighs
   a hopeful candle lingers
   in the land of lullabies
   where headless horsemen vanish
   with wild and lonely cries, lonely cries
   
   There were days
   and there were days
   and there were days I know
   when all we ever wanted
   was to learn and love and grow
   Once we grew into our shoes
   we told them where to go
   Walked halfway around the world
   on promise of the glow
   Stood upon a mountain top
   Walked barefoot in the snow
   Gave the best we had to give
   How much we'll never know, we'll never know
   
   There were days
   and there were days
   and there were days between
   polished like a golden bowl
   The finest ever seen
   Hearts of Summer held in trust
   still tender, young and green
   left on shelves collecting dust
   not knowing what they mean
   Valentines of flesh and blood
   as soft as velveteen
   hoping love would not forsake
   the days that lie between, lie between

Pigpen's "she's got" rap in lovelight.

What do you think???

Here's what I think..

	She's got Pop's bad knitting, grapes that are oversized,
   	Workin undercover with rule that slides.

:-0

	Pig says:

	She's got two big black kitties, 
	with great big enormous eyes
	Workin' under cover wearin tour tie-dyes

	I beleive he's talking about undercover cops, even back then ;-)

	Ken

>	Pig says:
>
>	She's got two big black kitties, 
>	with great big enormous eyes
>	Workin' under cover wearin tour tie-dyes
>
>	I beleive he's talking about undercover cops, even back then ;-)
    
    I'm sorry if it seems like my mind is in the gutter, but I can't help
    but think these lines are making reference to a woman's chest. just MHO
    
    	Mike

    .100 thinks like I do........i mean, like tim grady does.....%^)
    
    rfb

    glad to hear I'm not the only one...:-\
    
    	.100

	Well, they were just words that rhymed ;-)  Reading it back
	it does conjure up some images though.

	What pig actually says, at least according to one source,
	is in the Golden Road article on pigpen.  I don't know if
	I remember enough to type it in.

	Ken

    
    that was a great article!! 
    
    

OK, i was listening to 2-18-71 II last night and Jerry and Bob are having this
exchange w/ the audience/lighting people.  apparently, some light was on that
the boyz wanted off... and, the aud. wanted off too...

at one point, jerry says:

	"Welcome to the lucky logger dance contest"

what is the reference?

>	"Welcome to the lucky logger dance contest"
    
    could this be a reference to the tune "frozen logger" ?
    
    that tune is a trip.  It sounds pretty awful too.
    
    "my loooverrr waaaaass a lawwwwwwgerrrrr" :-) :-)
    
    	Mike

    I have that on a redrocks tape as "The Logger Song"
    but the reference was before that tune, eh?
    rfb

    I always thought that was referring to Lucky Lager...... really bad
    beer..... don't even think it's around any more.......

re                    <<< Note 32.108 by MISERY::VASQUEZ_JE >>>

>    I always thought that was referring to Lucky Lager...... really bad
>    beer..... don't even think it's around any more.......

With Jerry's san fran twang to his voice, it is tough to determine if he is
saying "lucky logger" or "lucky lager" ... perhaps it is the latter, since
Lucky Lager, as you claim, was a product at one time...


i'd say it is not a reference to the frozen logger tune.

    This doesn't quite fit the topic title, but it's close enough.
    
    Have the Dead ever released an instrumental?  I can't think of any
    offhand.  This seems unusual for a band that is so heavily instrument,
    as opposed to vocal, based.
    
    Jamie

    infred roses??  Not sure - never heard the disk, but I thought it 
    was a collection of drumz and space.
    
    :-)
    Scott

    does blues for alla have words ?

    
    Blues for Allah the album has tunz with words on it.
    
    Infrared roses has no words in NE of the tunz - just drumz/space clips
    - pretty good album (IMHO of course) if you're into that sort of thing. 
                         

>    Have the Dead ever released an instrumental?

i don't believe that "Feedback" (i think that's the title) on "Live Dead" has
any lyrics, but that's not a whole album, and it's not studio either

- rich

    Interesting replies.  I have "Infrared Roses," though I rarely play it. 
    "Feedback" counts, sort of, I guess.  I used it in college to clear my
    room of unwanted guests -- it never failed me.  :-)
    
    I was thinking along the lines of the Allman Bros. instrumentals, for
    example "Elizabeth Reed" and "Jessica," which are fully realized
    songs.  I can't think of a similar example for the Dead.
    
    Jamie

    how bout Spainish Jam or Alhambra, I think it's really called.
    rfb

    >"Feedback" counts, sort of, I guess.  
    
    hell yes it counts...not only that, some of us applaud for it! 
    
    that reminds me - I heard that Frampton lives in Nashua,NH - could that
    be true or is someone toying with my mind?
    
    

    
    no one has mentioned "Antwerp's Placebo" yet...  short
    instrumental/percussion piece on "Go To Heaen"...
    
    or hwo about "Slipknot" from help->slip->frank????
    
    					da ve

"Sage & Spirit" from the 
Blues for Allah album. I'm not sure about "King Solomon's Marbles?"

- dc

>Blues for Allah album. I'm not sure about "King Solomon's Marbles?"

Definite on KSM.  Full title is something like, 
King Solomon's Marbles (Stronger than Dirt, or Milking the Turkey) 
isn't it?

Didn't Jerry have a few intrumentalish little things on his first solo
album - "Spidergawd", "Eep Hour"   (I love that title.  "Hey, what time is it?"
"Oh, its gettin' to be about Eep Hour, whaddya think?")

josh

    
    Yep, "Late for Supper....Spidergawd, Eep Hour" has no words.....except
    you can hear "Dr. Frank Clippenheimer" and "Don't think" among the
    background noise of "Late for Supper."
    
    I love that stuff....awesome Halloween music.
    
    Hogan

merle and jerry - "Blues for the Rainforest"

as DC mentioned - Sage and Spirit is really cool too... 



glennnn

I think there's also a tune on Blues for Allah called "Serenghetti" that's
an instrumental...but it's been ages since I listened to that album...

tim

    
    Actually I think "Serenghetti" is on "Shakedown Street" 

    "The bus came by, and I got on, that's when it all began. ... >
    
    Who's behind the wheel on the bus to never, never land?
    
    Thanks, 
    Steve

    cassidy...sometimes called cowboy cassidy??? ain't that part of That's
    It for THE Other One" too??
    rfb

    Yup.  Cowboy Neal was at the Wheel.

    Yep, but its Neal Cassady, I believe.  Cassidy is the daughter of
    Eileen Law, I think, who works in the Dead's office.
    
    You should read the Electric Kool Aid Acid Test!
    
    	dave
    

and Cassady is Dean Moriarty in Jack Kerouac's books, such as "On the Road"

Ah, yes, but the song "Cassidy" is actually about both of them

   "there he goes now, here she starts"  (or maybe it's "hear her cry")

From somewhere, probably a GD Hour, I remember hearing either from 
or about Eileen Law, how she was camping out at Bob's house while
pregnant with Cassidy, and she remembers going through her breathing
exercises outside in a tent while listening to Bob working on 
the song that eventually became Cassidy.

PeterT