Conference rdvax::grateful

    
    I am in desperate need of a new deck so I went out looking and I am not
    completely confused.  I currently have a two headed NAK and I want to
    get another tape deck mainly for dubbing and a primary playback deck. 
    I am willing to shell out some extra cash to get something I am going
    to be very happy with and will last me a long time.  My questions are:
    
    2 heads vs. 3 heads - what's the difference and will I notice it?
    
    I saw the new NAK line Cassette Deck 1 (3 heads $800) and Cassette Deck
    2 (2 heads $400).  I also saw a Dennon dual deck with dual motor (i.e.
    two seperate decks in one ideal for dubbing) and some Carver decks.  I
    am so confused.  Has anyone had any experience with the above decks and
    especially with the Dennon product line??
    
    I would appreciate any info and suggestions on purchasing a new deck.
    
    
    Thanx.
    Jerry

re:               <<< Note 74.1 by AD::VAUK "sleep in the stars" >>>

>    get another tape deck mainly for dubbing and a primary playback deck. 
>
>    2 heads vs. 3 heads - what's the difference and will I notice it?
    
	If you are getting another deck primarily for playback, then
	3 heads won't make any difference.   

	In a 2 head deck, 1 head is the playback/record head, and the 
	other is the erase head.  The play/record head either plays 
	_or_ records, ie, one or the other.

	In a 3 head deck, there's a play head, a separate record head,
	and an erase head.   When you dub onto a 3 head deck you can
	playback (on the playback head) what's being recorded (by the
	record head) simultaneously, so you instantly know how the tape
	"came out" or is coming out _while_ you record.  You can 
	alternatively monitor the source or the recording.

	When you use a 2 head deck and you want to see how the recording
	is coming out, you have to stop the tape, rewind, and playback.
	While you are recording the sound you hear is the sound of the
	source thru the record deck, not the tape you are dubbing.
	
	I use a 3 head deck for dubbing and I love it.   

	Ken

RE:               <<< Note 74.1 by AD::VAUK "sleep in the stars" >>>
                            -< Help on a new deck >-

    
>    2 heads vs. 3 heads - what's the difference and will I notice it?
    
The third head allows you to monitor during recording; that is, one head lays
down the music, and the next head reads it and reports in real time what has
been recorded. Two head decks output the signal being sent into the recording
head before its recorded, so you have to replay the tape to hear how it came
out.  The two heads in a two head deck are (In order) the erase head and 
record/playback head. The three heads in a three head deck are (in order) the
erase head, the record/playback head and another playback head.

>    I would appreciate any info and suggestions on purchasing a new deck.
    
The best thing to do is to use your ears.  Bring a good blank and a CD to the
shop, ask if you could record some reference material, and compare reference
material, preferably CD, with the tape after you've recorded a bit on it.  If
the store isn't set up to allow you to do this; make them set the equipment up
so you can do this.  Let your ears decide.  If your ears can't tell the diff in
reproductive quality between an $800 deck and a $400 deck, its seems pretty
silly to me to get the more expensive deck, regardless of any extra "features"
it may have.

Hope this helps

Fog

There's a lot of information in GRATEFUL_OLD in note 307.*

Here's what I wrote when I got my Denon last July.  I'm still VERY pleased with
it!

             <<< SPICE::USER4:[NOTES$LIBRARY]GRATEFUL_OLD.NOTE;1 >>>
                 -< Take my advice, you'd be better off DEAD >-
================================================================================
Note 307.26                        Tape Decks                           26 of 74
EZWIND::LEVY "Bound to cover just a little more gro" 95 lines  21-JUL-1989 10:45
                      -< New tape deck...my experiences >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  The other night, it became clear that my 9+ year old Technics cassette deck
  was no longer doing the job.  There had been warning signs of potential
  demise for some time. Now, however, the performance of the unit, while
  never stellar, had become completely unacceptable.  Time for the old crock
  to go to that big electronics junkpile in the sky.

  I gave thorough consideration to living with just one cassette deck, and
  rejected the idea (this process took about .25 seconds).

  Armed with information gleaned from the AUDIO notesfile (a hearty thanks
  and tip-of-the-hat to the AUDIO noters who have provided invaluable ideas,
  tips, and things to consider) I entered Natural Sound determined to shop
  carefully.

  Here's what I knew I wanted:

  	- 3 head design, so that I can monitor tape as well as source.
  	- Dolby HX-Pro circuitry, as this has been given rave reviews in AUDIO.
  	- Dolby B/C capability
  	- headphone jack
  	- adjustable output control

  The salesman with whom I spoke at Natural was Larry.  I was impressed by
  the lack of hard sell, the willingness to spend time making many many
  tapes, the thorough explanations he gave, and the willingness to say "I
  don't know" when he didn't.

  I began by looking at the NAD decks.  

    The 6300 is a beautiful deck.  3 head, dual capstan, HX-Pro, excellent
    tape handling characteristics.  Made fantastic tapes.  The price of this
    unit ($799) was at the absolute upper limit of what I was willing to
    spend.  The only negative (and for me a BIG one) was the lack of a
    headphone jack.

    The 6100 is a less robust deck.  Makes tapes that are barely discernably
    less fantastic than the 6300.  Single capstan, 2 head, HX-Pro.  Price was
    around $400.  Negatives on this one were the lack of headphone jack and
    what I considered poor tape handling on changing modes (Pushing STOP in
    the middle of a FF run caused the right-hand reel to stop immediately,
    but the left-hand reel continued to move for a short time.  A loop of
    tape would appear in the cassette window.  Switching rapidly from FF to
    REW had the same results.  I didn't like the possibilities of tape
    mishandling that this could cause.).

  Now for Nakameichi (sp?)

    I had seen the CR1A and wasn't interested in this or the CR2A.  If I
    wanted another 2-head machine, I'd probably opt for a 2nd Proton 740
    since I am VERY happy with this machine already.

    The CR3A is also a beautiful deck.  This deck had most of the features I
    was after, and also made marvelous tapes.  The big negative on this one
    was the lack of HX-Pro.  Nakameichi seems to think that HX-Pro is a
    crutch for less-than-top-quality machines.  My experience was that it was
    MUCH easier to saturate tape on the NAK than on the NAD.  I could bring
    the NAD decks up to +7db without any audible distortion.  The NAK would
    start distorting on the high frequencies somewhere between +3 and +5.  I
    attributed this difference to the lack of HX-Pro circuitry (but it could
    have been the phase of the moon for all I know!) .  At $750 this was also
    at just about the top end of what I was willing to spend.

  At this point, I was confused and nearly left the store to think things
  over and shop at some other places.  Nearly $800 is alot to spend (for me)
  on a cassette deck.  Neither of the ones I had seen did the job for me
  completely.  However, I noticed a DENON deck on the shelf and began to ask
  about this unit.

    The DENON DRM-800 has all of the features for which I was looking. 
    HX-Pro, 3-head (although not discreet 3-head as NAK does it - record and
    playback are separate heads housed in a single casing), Dolby B/C, dual
    capstan, adjustable output, headphone jack.  This deck also made
    marvelous tapes.  I couldn't differentiate tapes made on the DENON from
    tapes made on the NAD.  This deck shared the resistance to tape
    saturation (cranking to +7db and beyond produced no audible distortion on
    metal tape).  I has a bias fine-tune, MPX filter, nice real-time tape
    counter, and a couple of other useful features.  Tape handling was
    flawless.  Best yet, this thing cost $460.

  I purchased the DENON.  I considered that the NAD and the NAK might be
  somewhat better constructed and might have technical specifications
  somewhat above that of the DENON.  However, judging by my ears, the DENON
  did the job for me.  The money saved on this deck could go toward
  purchasing a bunch of tapes, and CDs, etc.  I also considered that I might
  be able to get a somewhat better price at Tweeter or by mailorder, but
  Natural has a service department right in the store.  This is a big plus
  for me since, if this thing needs service, I'd like to be able to talk to
  the guy doing the work.

  The bottom line:  I am satisfied with my purchase and very satisfied with
  my experience at Natural Sound.  


  	- Dave

    
    Thanx for the pointer to GRATEFUL_OLD.  I noticed that a lot of people
    mentioned the Music Box in Wellesley MA.  I plan to do some shoppin'
    this weekend - I would appreciate it if someone could point me in the
    right direction to find this store - I live in Westboro on Rt. 9 near
    495.  Thanx.
    
    One thing about NAK decks that has be rilly confused is - I saw the new
    line Cassette Deck 1 and Cassette Deck 2 and to be honest with you I
    hate the cosmetic changes that they have done.  Is this the only line
    NAK is offering now?  Are the BX and CR series decks still available? 
    As I understand it the BX-300 and CR-3A are the three headed decks -
    right?
    
    Thanx.
    Jerry 

Q:

Am I sujecting my tapes to any long term/significant damage by having them in 
my car during these coooooold New England winter months?


Thanks,
Scott

re:        <<< Note 74.8 by MR4DEC::WENTZELL "Lately it occurs to me..." >>>
   
>Am I sujecting my tapes to any long term/significant damage by having them in 
>my car during these coooooold New England winter months?
    
    Biggest problem is that the tape will probably break when you try to play
    them. Leave them inside your house.
    

    
    RE. .7
    
>6th Ave Electronics City in NYC has them advertised for $496, a terrific price,
>if'n you ask me.  Their Mail order number is 201-489-1204.  Make sure to
>inquire as to gaurantee info, as they may be selling grey market units.
    
    I have heard the term "grey market" used a lot in the AUDIO file. 
    Could someone explain to me exactly what this means and how can I be
    sure I am not buying "grey market" equipment.
    
    Thanx.
    Jerry

	Grey market equipment is usually gear that is designed for the
international market and imported to be sold in the US without the
"blessing" of the manufacturer.  This equipment is sold WITHOUT the express
and full manufacterer's warrenty, and the manufacturer will refuse to
service it if defective (unless you pay for the service).  Often, the store
selling the gear will offer their own "warrenty".  Grey market used to be
illegal but it was so prevalent that it was legalized with the requirement
that the stores selling it acknowledge in their ads that the gear is
grey market.

	Grey market equipment often has operating manuals in several
languages, and have switches that allow it to operate from several different
voltages (110, 120, 220, 240, etc).  

	Personally I would stay away from grey market equipment of any 
mechanical kind (turntables, CD players, tape decks, etc) due to the 
service/warrently hassles.  Purely electronic stuff I can fix myself ;-)

	Tweeter's Outlet sale:
	Thursday 12-9 pm
	Fri.	10-9 PM
	Sat.	10-6 PM
	Sunday	12-6 PM
	
	874 Comm. Ave, Boston	617-738-4411
	
	I've rummaged through the outlet center from time to time and they
do have some good stuff.  That's where I got my Yamaha DSP-3000 surround 
sound processor - it was around 40% off, and a factory-fresh (sealed cardboard
box, never touched by American hands ;-) one too!  Lots of NAD, Denon, Yamaha
CD players, tapedecks, receivers, amps, preamps, VCRs, etc.

	Josh

    
>6th Ave Electronics City in NYC has them advertised for $496, a terrific price,
>if'n you ask me.  Their Mail order number is 201-489-1204.  Make sure to
>inquire as to gaurantee info, as they may be selling grey market units.
    
    Whelp, I gave these guys a call and the salesman said the CR3A was $616
    but if I acted now he would give it to me for $599.  Also it is grey
    market equipment - it comes with their own warantee ONLY.  He said that
    they sell the decks way to far below list so NAK does not warantee
    them.  Oh well $496 sounded too good to be true.  I will have to check
    out the Tweeter sale this weekend.
    
    -Jerry

    
>    Whelp, I gave these guys a call and the salesman said the CR3A was $616
>    but if I acted now he would give it to me for $599.  Also it is grey

Wow, a whole 3% discount!  For those of us who haven't experienced 
them, the electronics stores of mid-town Manhattan are a mix of 
reputable dealers and slime-bags who prey on uninformed customers.  
The slimey ones just love people who don't worry about the warranty at 
the point of purchase - these are the folks who buy grey market stuff 
and only discover later that the store's refund policy is: NO refunds, 
returns or exchanges after 5 days!  (Big bummer for out-of-towners.)

These guys have a million tricks.  Like the time I went shopping for 
an answering machine, and saw one that I liked in a display case.  The 
guy pulls it out, and it has a price sticker marked $189.00.  I start 
to say, "Oh, that's too expensive...", and the guy says, "Oh, no, for 
you, I'll give it to you for $110!".  Gee, like the guy is my buddy 
and wants to do me a favor.  What he doesn't tell you is that 
everything in the display case is marked up by about 100%, so 
everybody who walks in gets a "special" deal.  BTW, the answering 
machine I looked at was on sale in dozen other stores in the area, for 
about $100 - $130.  Same thing happened when I bought a walkman in 
NYC.

tom

    I'm looking for a portable DAT.  I have heard about new models of these
    from Sony and Aiwa, and I have seen some really little ones at shows,
    all of which seemed to have been bought from someone who was coming
    back from Japan or something.  I have yet to see ANY portable DAT
    equipment in any store anywhere.

RE:                    <<< Note 74.16 by WELCOM::ANDY >>>
                                   -< DAT? >-

>    I'm looking for a portable DAT.  I have heard about new models of these

I am too.  They are around, but ya hafta go looking.  There is a store in NYC
called DAT's Incredible which specializes in these things. Apparently, the
owner is getting quite used to Deadheads.  :-)

Fog

    Best bet for deadheads to buy portable DAT's is the Oade Bros in GA
    or Harvey Electronics in NJ (ask for Neil, tell him Gerry sent ya).
    Both places will give a special cut rate for deadheads. $750.00 for
    the new Sony TCD-D3 portable DAT. The Aiwa is a piece of crap. I don't
    know anyone who owns one who hasn't had problems.
    
    DAT's Incredible is expensive, as is the DAT Store in CA. Also, virtually
    any major mail order audio store in NYC has them. There are some pro
    audio stores in Boston/Cambridge that sell Panasonic pro decks as well.
    
    - Gerry

    
    When I was setting the levels on my deck last nite to do some dubbing I
    noticed a hum in the line.  After experimenting for a while I figured
    out that it was due to the Television set.  The farther the deck was
    from the TV the fainter the hum.  Fustrated, I moved the stereo
    upstairs in my bedroom.  Is there anything you can do to shield the TV
    or does it basically come down to - don't keep the stereo near the TV?
    
    Thanx.
    Jerry
    
    ps.  Don't worry Scott I re-dubbed your tapes.

	Does this 15mHz hum, or whatever it's called, sound like a
	constant, high pitched background tone ?  Sort of like a test
	pattern type sound, only much higher ?  

	Tapes I've get from a friend often have this background noise, 
	and I was thinking maybe what I'm hearing is a result of the
	TV noise being discussed.   I always thought it was related to	
	mistracked Dolby.

	Ken 

re < Note 74.23 by FURTHR::HANNAN "Beyond description..." >

>	Does this 15mHz hum, or whatever it's called, sound like a
>	constant, high pitched background tone ?  Sort of like a test
>	pattern type sound, only much higher ?  

	Yup.  Annoying as hell, isn't it?

>	Tapes I've get from a friend often have this background noise, 
>	and I was thinking maybe what I'm hearing is a result of the
>	TV noise being discussed.   I always thought it was related to	
>	mistracked Dolby.

	Could be his tape deck is screwed up.  Any spectrum analyzer type
	Equalizer, when hooked into his system, (ala' Jamie Ide's!) 	
	should show the problem, I guess...

	josh

First of all, I agree that the intelligible noise emanating from a TV set is
much more hazardous than any hums and squeals.

TV-induced electromagnetic interference is generated by the vertical and 
horizontal deflection coils.  These coils generate magnetic fields at roughly 
60 Hz and 15,750 Hz respectively.  Shielding against the propagation of these 
fields requires extreme measures - very thick metal, or ferromagnetic alloys 
with ultra-high permeability (extremely expensive).  These fields are present 
whenever the TV is on, and are not affected by image content.

Low EMF (electromagnetic field) monitors for computers are now becoming 
available because no one yet knows whether these fields can be harmful.  These 
monitors work by adding additional coils inside which generate an equal and 
opposite magnetic field.  Whether there is any activity like this in the TV 
world, I do not know.

Bill

    
    Whelp, I picked myself up a new wand demagnitizer yesterday.  I was
    wondering if someone who has used these things a lot could give me some
    pointers on how to properly demagnitize the heads on my tape deck??? 
    Also just out of curiosity how often do you clean the heads? and how
    often do you demagnitize the heads?  Thanx in advance.
    
    Happy Cheese-
    Jerry 

Re:           <<< Note 74.28 by AD::VAUK "love will see you through" >>>
    
>    Whelp, I picked myself up a new wand demagnitizer yesterday.  I was
>    wondering if someone who has used these things a lot could give me some
>    pointers on how to properly demagnitize the heads on my tape deck??? 
>    Also just out of curiosity how often do you clean the heads? and how
>    often do you demagnitize the heads?  Thanx in advance.

	1. How to Demagnetize

	- Clear all tapes more than 1 meter away from the deck to 
	  be demagnetized :-)
	- Open the tape access door
	- Hold the demagnetizer at arms length away from the tape deck
	  (and all tapes) and turn it on
	- Bring it slowly up to the tape deck and insert in the tape
	  well (slowly = 5-10 seconds)
	- Hold the wand next to the metal capstans, the erase head and
	  finally the record/play head
	- Hold in place for 5 seconds while moving in a small, slow 
	  circle around the heads
	- Slowly, i.e. over about 10-15 seconds, withdraw the demagnetizer
	  to arms lentgh away from the tape deck.  Move very slow ly over 
	  the first several centimeters - this is most important to 
	  keeping the noise down.
	- Turn off the demagnetizer

	2. If I'm doing serious recording, I clean the heads every other
	   90 or 100 minutes tape.  If I'm just playing tapes, generally
	   every 6-10 tapes.

	3. If I'm doing serious recording, I demagnetize about every 2nd
	   or 4th tape.  My attitude is too much in this case is 
	   better than too little.  If I'm just playing tapes, I rarely
	   demagnetize because I usually end up doing recording before
	   the accumulated hiss is enough to annoy me.

	Your mileage may vary....

	Bob_obsessive_techno-dweeb

Re:         <<< Note 74.30 by NECSC::LEVY "Love is real, not fade away" >>>

>              -< ...and don't let the wand touch the heads!!!!! >-

	Good point, Prob!

	Mine has a plastic/rubber sleeve that covers the tip of the
	wand and prevents it from scratching the heads.

	Bob

I demag about once every 10 tapes recorded.  I clean about once a month or
so, or when I'm about to do up a nice set of tapes from metal source for 
somebody.  I have one of those cassette style demagnetisers from Radio Shaft,
er, Shack.  Works pretty good, and it is very mobile (do the car's deck, my
friend's deck, my decks, etc...)

How much of a difference does demagnetizing make??  Is it necessary to preserve 
the life of tapes/tape_deck??  Is the equipment expensive??  It's never 
anything I ever gave much thought to (I do clean fairly regularly though).

Scott

re:           <<< Note 74.33 by MR4DEC::WENTZELL "Built for comfort" >>>

> How much of a difference does demagnetizing make??  

It's supposed to reduce drop-outs and "dulling" of high frequencies, and is
especially important for dubbing.  Some people say they don't notice any 
difference, but I say why take the chance: demag regularly.   

One think I'm not sure about is the effect of an overly magnetized deck
on _tapes_ played, not the way the tapes sound, but the effect of the recorded
material.  Can recorded material be irreversibly affected by not demagnetizing ?
If so, then I'd consider it even more important!

> Is it necessary to preserve the life of tapes/tape_deck??  

Depends on the last question I raised I guess.  To preserve dubs of tapes,
definitely yes!

> Is the equipment expensive??  

I used the Maxell cassette type for a long time - cost about $15.00 several
years ago.   A few months ago I picked up the wand-type from Radio Shack,
on sale for about $9.00 (from $15).

Ken

    
    One thing I thought I would mention is that a cassette type
    demagnitizer will not work for a three headed deck - that is why I
    picked up the wand style since I just recently aquired a three headed
    deck.
    
    Happy Cheese-
    Jerry

Ken described it pretty well.  My car deck hadn't seen a demagnetizer for
a couple of years!!  So, I clean out the deck, zapped it with the demagnetizer,
and presto! the sound was much, much, much better.  The highs came through
once again and the bass was full.

Radio Shack has those cassette type demagnetizers.  I paid something like
$7.50 for it on sale; it does the job, and it is very, very mobile (batteries
are built in, demagnetizing is very quick).  It is the size of a cassette
tape.

JC

Thanks for the advice, based on what I've heard so far I guess it is worthwhile 
to head to Radio Shack.  I'll probobly go with the cassette type, since most of 
my tape listening is done in the car (I'm just not home all that much).

This is basically just curiosity, and I'm risking showing off my incredible 
sophistication when it comes to audio, but what exactly causes a tape player to 
need to be demagnetized??  Is it atmospheric or is it little pieces of the 
music coming off my tapes and staying in my deck!  And if I play the music 
rilly loud, how often should I demagnetize my head  ;^)


Scott

	Cassette tapes are magnetic.  One property of magnetism is it's
ability to flow into other objects that can be magnetized.  This happens
when a magnetized object is "stuck" to another object.  Anyways, you have
your tapes constantly touching the head of your tape deck.  The head
becomes slightly magnetized and effects the head's ability to pick up
a clean reading from the tape.

    Doesn't that also, potentially, change the original recording on the
    tape - permanently?
    
    I mean, if the head has it's own Magnetic field, it could effect the
    tape that's running over it.  Presumably, it wouldn't enhance the
    recording.  I remember hearing (from Mystery?) that it tends to flatten
    the high-end.
    
    Is this (relatively) accurate?  
    

re:                  <<< Note 74.40 by SCAM::GRADY "tim grady" >>>
>                                 -< buzzzzzz >-
>
>    Doesn't that also, potentially, change the original recording on the
>    tape - permanently?
>    
>    I mean, if the head has it's own Magnetic field, it could effect the
>    tape that's running over it.  Presumably, it wouldn't enhance the
>    recording.  I remember hearing (from Mystery?) that it tends to flatten
>    the high-end.

    That's basically what I was asking in .34 if I read the above correctly...
    Anyone know if non-demagnetized decks + tape heads could permanently 
    affect recorded material on tape ? 

    Ken

I went to Radio Shack on Sat and picked up the cassette type demagnatizer.  
Used it in all my decks.  Not much difference, if any, in my car deck - it is 
relatively new, but gets the most use.  My new deck at home show a little 
better sound (could have been in my mind though).  The deck I have in my 
bedroom, which is about 10 years old really showed a HUGE improvement, 
especially on the high end.

Thanks for all the good advice!!!

Scott_no_longer_magnetic ;^)

	Re: the last couple....

	In *extreme* *pathological* cases, magnetized components in the
	tape path can permanently alter a tape being played.

	This was a much bigger problem 20 years ago when erase heads were
	commonly permanent magnets.  Since most decks that are likely to 
	be in use today use AC coils to erase a tape, this is not such a
	big deal.

	Tape heads have small slivers of funky magnetic materials (you 
	may have seems names like Crystalloy or Permalloy or etc.).  And
	like all (ferro)magnetic materials, they have are nonlinear.  
	That is, if one plots the magnetic flux density (B field) in the 
	material versus the applied magnetic field intensity (H field),
	shape of the resulting trace will show both saturation at high
	field intensities and also hysteresis.

	A key point here is that the shape of the curve varies strongly 
	with frequency.  That is, one can apply a much more intense 
	magnetic field without saturating the flux density with a DC
	field than a field that is varying in time.  As the frequency
	goes up, the maximum field intensity that can be applied without
	saturation goes down - often dramatically.

	The trick in audio recording is adjust the record head material's 
	properties so that it is as close to linear as possible over the
	widest posible range of magnetic field intensity/magnetic field
	flux density.  And this can be done very well.

	This counts on , however, the heads having no residual magnetic 
	field.  If it does, a nice, symmetric excitation to the magnetic
	material in the head becomes skewed towards one end or the other 
	- and thus towards saturation.  And at higher frequencies, there 
	is less room for error (smaller magnetization loop).  Thus if
	the head has some is slightly magnetized, the high frequency 
	response will be degraded.

	The other consequence is that as the magnetic field intensity
	approaches and enters saturation, this is the same as the signal
	clipping - and noise is generated.  If on playback, the tape is
	unaffected.  On recording, however, this noise is recorded onto 
	the tape right along with the reduced frequency response input
	signal.

	There will now be a quiz :-)

	The gist of it is that the situation needs to be *extreme* -
	and it is unlikely - that a magnetized head will cause damage to
	a tape being played.

	A magnetized head, however, will degrade the sound quality of
	a tape being recorded...

	Professor_Bob

    Thanks Bob.  So, if I follow your explanation properly, we primarily
    need to be concerned about tape head magnetization during recording,
    and permanent damage is unlikely except with really old or really cheap
    equipment?  Of course, I'm not interested in using any such gear for
    tapes that I value anyway.
    
    How does the degradation in recorded material show up?  Plain old hiss?
    Distortion?  Buzz?  Phase shifting?  Dynamic range?  Crummy cymbals
    during Drums? All of the above?  Just curious...
    
    tim
    

Re:                  <<< Note 74.45 by SCAM::GRADY "tim grady" >>>

>   Thanks Bob.  

	Y'all are welcome...

>   So, if I follow your explanation properly, we primarily
>    need to be concerned about tape head magnetization during recording,
>    and permanent damage is unlikely except with really old or really cheap
>    equipment?  Of course, I'm not interested in using any such gear for
>    tapes that I value anyway.
 
	Correct...
   
>    How does the degradation in recorded material show up?  Plain old hiss?
>    Distortion?  Buzz?  Phase shifting?  Dynamic range?  Crummy cymbals
>    during Drums? All of the above?  Just curious...

	The high frequencies become rolled off and muted and the
	tape hiss increases are the basic audible effects.

	Bob

    
    I need to have a car tape deck repaired. It's a minor job, the spring
    on one of the wheels that turn the tape is broke.
    I plan on taking the deck out of the car myself..
    
    Does anybody know of a place in the Marlboro area that fixes decks.
    
    Appreciate any help..
    Don

I've taken stuff to Palmer Electronics in Westboro.  Good work and good prices.

Located near the center of town off of route 30 - just before the rotary as 
your heading into town from Marlboro - behind the Mobil(?) Station on the 
right. It is on the side street there -  River(?) St.

HTH!

Scott

While drifting off to a peaceful slumber last night, listening to 9-19-91
GDTRFB->Stella Blue, I awoke in a panic when the walkman suddenly reversed
playing the other side of the tape 8^O.  Tried the tape in my car deck and it
did it again....why?





Jim who doesn't wanna lose this tape

    Check to see if there is a problem on how the tape is wound...is it 
    crinkled or folded etc.?  That has happened to me with store bought
    tapes and that always seems to be the problem.
    
    rich

    re .49
    
    Check the hubs to see if they spin freely - if they're jamming, that
    would cause the tape player to reverse.  Sometimes fast-forwarding and
    rewinding a tape can fix a jam.
    
    Now for something completely different . . . 
    
    Why don't Dead tapers record in mono?  One mic would be cheaper and, I
    would think, give better results.  After all, the PA isn't true stereo,
    and it's a rare audience tape that has any kind of stereo image to it
    (and even when it does, it's often skewed to one side).  Mono recording
    probably wouldn't work well with a shotgun mic, so crowd noise would be
    more obvious.  Any thoughts from tapers?
    
    Jamie

    re:             <<< Note 74.51 by FRAGLE::IDE "now it can be told" >>>

>   Why don't Dead tapers record in mono?  One mic would be cheaper and, I
>    would think, give better results.  After all, the PA isn't true stereo,
>    and it's a rare audience tape that has any kind of stereo image to it
>    (and even when it does, it's often skewed to one side).  Mono recording
>    probably wouldn't work well with a shotgun mic, so crowd noise would be
>    more obvious.  Any thoughts from tapers?
    
    I wrote a big long reply to this when NECSC:: kicked me off in the
    middle. In a nutshell I said...
    
    - The Dead's PA is in stereo but you have to be in the sweet spot to hear
      it properly. Properly recorded up front tapes have great stereo
      imagery. Much of the reason aud tapes lack imagery is because
      the taping section is in a poor location. It takes a lot of work
      to reproduce the imagery from that kind of distance. reb and I use
      a split (35'-50') shotgun mic scheme that yields good imagery from
      the pit but still not as good as an "illegal" up front tape.
    
    - Mono tapes sound flat. I've used one mic in a bar and don't like the
      results. Even a mono bar PA sounds better with two mics due to the 
      added imagery of hall ambiance. Besides, the soundstage, although
      not stereo, will not be present on a mono recording. With two mics
      you can at least pick out which side of the stage different monitors
      are located (eg keys left, bass right, drums middle, etc). Even though 
      it's easier to smuggle and use one mic, I'd rather go through the hassle 
      of using two.
    
      Ger_who_wrote_a_lot_more_on_this_B4_Grateful_puked_and_apparently_had
      _a_lot_to_say_WRT_soundstage_imagery.

RE:  Jim

My old car deck used to do that quite a bit.  Seemed to be more frequent with
XLII-S type tapes than XLII type tapes.

RE:  Ger

If you lose a nice, long, well-thoughout reply when the host system barfs,
you can always do a REPLY/LAST (don't do any replies in between) to some
conference (or, re-open grateful, find the topic, and do a reply/last).  Also,
another way is to SPAWN out of notes, set your default to SYS$LOGIN, and do
a DIR NOTES*  ... you'll find many temporary files.  One of those is most
likely the nice, long, well-thoughout reply!

JC, who has been bit by this also and found that one of these solutions
    works all the time.

hey now,

where can I get a nak bx125 fixed in the NH/MA area?

mine just decided to give me some grief and I would like
it back and fixed asap.

any ideas?
thankew

    Is the BX300 good?? It's probably the most sought-after deck on the
    used market. Some claim that it's better quality than anything Nak's
    made since. Also it has a speed adjustment knob that's handy for fixing
    those off-speed tapes, which is probably another reason for its
    popularity. I'd go for it but I just shelled out many $$ for my
    upcoming vacation. Good thing I had 37p in leftover postage to pay for
    the SASE. ;-)
    
    Scott
    

    
    I got my NAK deck serviced at Natural Sound which is off rt. 9 in
    Fraimgham MA - pretty reasonable prices....
    
    Happy Cheese-
    Jerry

    It's worth what you want to pay for it. I bought a used BX125 for about
    $200, and they go anywhere from $200 to 300. The 300 is basically a 125
    with 3 heads instead of 2, the pitch control, and I think a different
    transport mechanism. Probably $300 to 350 would be a fair price if the
    deck is in good (i.e. almost new) condition.
    
    I don't remember what they went for new, somewhere in the neighborhood
    of $600 to 700 most likely, and they haven't made them for almost 5
    years.
    
    Scott, admittedly not a Nak pro other than the odd facts
    

    I have a question about tapes.  I am currently doing a trade (outside
    of DEC) and he is using Sony SR tapes and I am using Maxell xlII's.
    I have never used Sony - is this type of Sony Tape as high quality as
    the Maxell??
    
    Thanks for any help,  (Not that it really matter too much to me - Just 
    Curious)  
    
    :-) Scott g

    Does anyone know where I can find a high-end moving coil cartridge in
    the Nashua/Amherst area? I could go to Tweeter but they don't have any
    in stock.
    
    Thanks!
    
    Mike_who_does_own_a_CD_player_but_still_has_a_pile_of_vinyl_that_he_
    won't_get_rid_of_for_CDs

Personally, I never cared for Sony tapes.  I think maxell tapes are much
better...

    Mike-
    Try Tech HiFi in the plaza after Rockit Records. I don't know if they
    have exactly what you want, but they have the best selection around.
    They were able to get a 78 stylus for my turntable (hey, I gotta listen
    to Vaughn Monroe's "Ghost Riders In The Sky").
    
    Re: Sony tapes: I've seen reports that say Sony tapes are a little
    better than Maxells. Personally I'd accept them as long as they were
    the same type (i.e. hi-bias chrome). But I wouldn't go out of my way if
    he didn't take Maxells in exchange for them.
    
    Scott_whose_other_bummer_is_that_I_think_a_bee_stung_me_in_the_neck
    _this_morning
    

    Someone in the audio notesfile suggested I ask my question here, since
    many of you folks do recordings with shotgun microphones...
    
    Anyway, I'm looking for an inexpensive directional microphone to use
    with my camcorder. What are reasonable mic's to look for? Which ones
    should be avoided? Where can I buy them in the eastern MA or southern
    NH area?
    
    Thanks.
    
    	Marty Sasaki

I've seen some discussion about the negative aspects of dual well cassette
decks.  I'm beginning to consider buying a new deck and would like to know
what the negativity is all about.





Jim

Most dual well decks really compromise on quality in order to build two separate
transports into the same box.

Perhaps the single notable exception *might* be the Denon.  Don't remember the
part number.

The other problem is that, when dubbing tapes they don't allow you to set the
input level.  I don't know if this is always the case, but the ones I've seen
do not allow input level selection on dubbing.

If you've got a deck that works well now, you'd be MUCH better off spending the
money on a quality single well deck than a double (IMHO).

	~dave

    I used to have an Aiwa WXD808 dubbing deck. Tim Dalton has one 
    and so does Steve Marcus. This is a pretty good deck if you
    can find one these days. I bought it used, never had problems with 
    it in the 3 years I owned it, and sold it for what I paid for it. 
    
    I found it to be a great deck with good heads that made great copies
    even at (EGADS! :-) high speed. I'd recommend this model to anyone
    bent on owning a dubbing deck. Goes for about $450-500 new. Lots of used 
    ones around, though. Can't adjust the recording level but Aiwa makes a 
    model that does.
    
    - Gerry

               <<< VAXWRK::$1$DUS6:[NOTES$LIBRARY]AUDIO.NOTE;1 >>>
                          -< The Emperor's New Audio >-
================================================================================
Note 37.169           Looking for a home cassette/tape deck           169 of 169
WONDER::BOISSE                                       24 lines  11-SEP-1991 13:47
                        -< new Denon dual capstan deck >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For anyone who may be interested, Denon has come out with a new model cassette
deck #DRM-710. This is very similar to the DRM-700, but is a dual capstan
unit, which makes it almost identical to the DRM-800. I just picked one up at
O'Coins in Worcester for $379. 

Features:
  dual capstan
  three heads (rec & PB are a combination head)
  bias adjust
  output volume control
  16-segment meter w/ momentary peak hold
  record return (returns to start of recording from record mode)
  record pause (inserts a 5 second gap from record mode)
  music search
  real-time counter w/ memory zero
  tape size selector
  auto tape type selector

Plus the usual stuff: HX-Pro, Dolby B & C, MPX filter, headphone jack...

It sounds a lot better than my old TEAC ever did. But that only had Dolby B, 
so I guess that's not an even comparison. It sounds great!

	with all these tape trees "sprouting up", I was wondering...

	when someone copies a tape for you...should you use the same
	NR setting that the copy they have has?  

	Debess

    
    If a tape is marked as using B or C noise reduction, it should be
    played back with that selected.
    
    If the person receiving the copy wants noise reduction, that should be
    applied to the recording.
    
    DO NOT just leave all NR "off" on a tape and hope that the encoding
    will pass on to the new tape.
    
    So...if I have a tape with C and my recipient want B, I play it back
    with C on and record with B.  Clear?
    
    	~dave
    

You can leave the NR off for dubbing, and save nearly a generation of extra
hiss, but it will only work if the levels match EXACTLY.  It would bprobably
be a good idea to try listening top the copy with the NR on after you record
the first song and see if it sounds OK.

We used to do it this way a lot with the older dolby setups that included a
test tone.  We would record the test tone on the tape, and set the dolby
level to match the tone when we played it back.  Unfortunately, most
dolbys nowadays aren't easily adjustable.

    Dolby is great stuff if used properly.  Try recording a CD with and
    without Dolby C.  See which one *you* want to listen to.  My bet is
    that you'll pick the Dolby C copy!
    
    The only times that noise reduction is a problem, IMHO, is when:
    
    	1 - The tape decks have a compatibility problem with the dolby
    		implementation.
    
    	2 - Care is not taken in the copying process.
    
    I've found that most modern decks have compatible dolby, since the
    circuitry is purchased as a chip from Dolby Labs.  Some older decks,
    which had adjustable dolby circuitry can have incompatible
    implementations.
    
    On something like the BG tree, where the geneology of the tapes is well
    known, using noise reduction can have a beneficial effect.
    
    If I am getting a 4th or 5th generation tape where I don't know what
    care was taken on the earlier gens, it's better to ask for no dolby.
    
    The above is all personal opinion and doesn't count for snot in the
    *really* important matters in life!
    
    	~dave
    

>     The only times that noise reduction is a problem, IMHO, is when:
>     
>     	1 - The tape decks have a compatibility problem with the dolby
>     		implementation.
>   
>     	2 - Care is not taken in the copying process.
  

	I agree with the above.  Also, I think the main problem is a difference
	in azimuth (the way the head is lined up with the tape itself).

	A significant difference in azimuth between decks will make a 
	tape recorded on 1 machine sound lousy or at least, not as good
	as its potential, on the other machine - this can happen *without* 
	Dolby encoded onto the tape.   A huge difference can occur, obvious in 
	the high end.   Add Dolby encoding, and the problem becomes MUCH worse: 
	the tape played on the other machine will sound much worse because of
	improper decoding of the encoded signal.
	
	I think it's the difference between azimuth that causes most of 
	the grief.   
	
	The NAK Dragon dynamically adjusts azimuth to each tape played	
	I believe, which is why it's known as thE best playback deck there is.
	Any Dragon owners care to comment on whether "Dolby incompatibility"
	exists at all on a dragon ?

	The other problem is a lot of people just don't understand the process
	of how Dolby is supposed to work, that it's a 2 step system.  So you
	see tapes dubbed with no decoding of dolby on playback, then encoded
	again on the dub, resulting in all kinds of strange noises on the tape.

	Until Dolby is a 1 step process, it's gonna continue to be a problem.
	I think Dolby HX PRO is a 1 step process.

	Ken

re < Note 74.81 by FURTHR::HANNAN "Beyond description..." >

>	I think it's the difference between azimuth that causes most of 
>	the grief.   

Yup!
	
>	Until Dolby is a 1 step process, it's gonna continue to be a problem.
>	I think Dolby HX PRO is a 1 step process.

Well... close....:-)
Dolby (B and C, as we know it) by definition is a 2 step processs.. Encode and
Decode.  I don't think Dolby will emerge with a one step process..this
already exists and is known as "Dynamic Noise Reduction" and it can sound 
pretty bad or good depending how its used.

Dolby HX Pro is exactly like regular Dolby B or C except that basically the
encoding processs is a little smarter about putting hi-level (loud) 
hi-frequency signals _onto_ the tape - thus enabling a greater maximum 
hi-freq. level before tape saturation.  Anytime you do anything to raise the
max recorded level (before saturation, of course!) (and also of course 
preserving the (hopefully low) 'no-signal' noise level of the electronics)
you increase the overall S/N ratio (did I use too many parenthesisisis in 
this sentence :-) ?). :-)

Josh

re:   <<< Note 74.82 by BARFLY::BELKIN "the slow one now will later be fast" >>>

> Decode.  I don't think Dolby will emerge with a one step process..this
> already exists and is known as "Dynamic Noise Reduction" and it can sound 
> pretty bad or good depending how its used.

Yeah, the unadjustable DNR on my car stereo is basically useless...
Still I think a partial solution is to have a real good 1 step noise reduction
system that works well; at least it would reduce the azimuth effect on 
noise reduction.

> (did I use too many parenthesisisis in 
> this sentence :-) ?). :-)

Nope, they balanced out just fine;-)

Ken

re < Note 74.83 by FURTHR::HANNAN "Beyond description..." >

>Still I think a partial solution is to have a real good 1 step noise reduction
>system that works well; at least it would reduce the azimuth effect on 

Its a compromise.. what typically happens is the azimuth is off enough to 
kill the high end, so the listener turns up the treble (or hi-freq. bands on
the EQ).  This of course brings up the hiss... so thats where the DNR comes
in.  Good, adjustable  DNRs are (or at least _were_) around.

josh

    During playback, Dolby reduces the level of low-level signals. The
    lower the level of a signal, the more Dolby depresses it. (The idea,
    of course, is that signals are depressed exactly as much as they were
    boosted during recording.)
    
    This works (more or less) great for new tapes. As a tape ages, its
    signal level drops, which will cause Dolby circuitry to depress its
    low-level signals excessively. This is one reason why a 10-year-old
    cassette recorded with Dolby is likely to be missing most of its highs
    if played back with Dolby on.
    
    For tapes that you expect to keep for a long time, I'd recommend either
    leaving the Dolby off or using a high-quality metal tape. (Metal tapes
    supposedly demagnetize more slowly than other formulations.)
    
    The effect is much worse with Dolby C than with Dolby B, because Dolby
    C uses more extreme boosting and suppression. So, using Dolby B is sort
    of a middle ground.
    
    John

    re .-1
    
    The latest Audio has an article on surround encoded CDs.  Mostly
    soundtracks, but good demo stuff I'd imagine.  I'm not that interested
    in surround 'cause I'm just not a movie fan.
    
    re:      <<< Note 74.90 by FURTHR::HANNAN "Beyond description..." >>>
    
>	Fancy EQ I guess...  Jazz club sounded the best.
    
    The major difference is that DSP eqs _and_ introduces delays to give
    the impression of a different listening room.  For instance, they might
    characterize the response of a cathedral and make it a DSP program so
    that all your pipe organ CDs would sound like a religious experience.
    
    Has anyone tried various DSP programs with audience tapes?  I'd like to
    be able to improve upon the awful acoustics of some halls, such as
    Landover's Capital Centre.  Then I can loop this component with my
    Donna Filter 3000 and Squelch The Assholes Who Think I Paid $26.50 To Hear
    Them Sing "Stella Blue" Filters and then I'd never have to leave my
    living room. 
    
    Jamie

    >Has anyone tried various DSP programs with audience tapes?  I'd like to
    >be able to improve upon the awful acoustics of some halls, such as
    >Landover's Capital Centre.  Then I can loop this component with my
    >Donna Filter 3000 and Squelch The Assholes Who Think I Paid $26.50 To Hear
    >Them Sing "Stella Blue" Filters and then I'd never have to leave my
    >living room. 
    
I have a Yamaha Pro-Logic receiver that has multiple DSP settings and ajustable 
volume control for each channel.  I don't know if it is possible to actually 
"improve" the sound in any absolute sense but by playing with the DSP and delay 
and volume of the different speakers it is possible to create effects that make 
you feel like you're really at a live performance, and you can change the 
accoustical feel of what you're listening to.  With audience tapes it is really 
nice because the ambiance of the venue is already on the tape and the DSP can 
bring it out and "enhance" it, which to me sort of "disguises" any tape hiss 
and gives the impression of improved sound quality.  It is also a very nice 
effect to have when listening to live CDs (JGB has been getting a lot of play 
lately), really makes you feel like your are hearing the performance live from 
the best seat in the house.  BTW, all this is very subjective based on my 
listening tastes, so your results could be quite different.

Now all I need is one of dem Squelch the Assholes...Filters and I'm all 
set! 8^)

Scott

    re .-1
    
    >	I would bet that you can't do what you want with the equipment
    >you have. The only thing I have ever heard of that might help is the
    >dynamic noise reduction type fo units that Josh speaks of on occasion.
    
    Definitely can't do it with what I have.  DNR has its problems, too
    (raising and lowering the noise floor gives tapes a "pumping" sound.)
    
    >The trouble with these simpler "add effects" devices,. is that thats
    >all they can do is add effects. A "bad" tape usually is bad because
    >it already hass too much of a bad thing going,.. and nothing you add
    >can really help. You need to "subtract" from the bad tape to get rid of
    >the problem,.. and an "adding" device won't help you.
    
    But I don't want anything to do with bad tapes.  The best recording
    from Boston Garden still suffers from problems because of the acoustics
    of the hall.  DSP attempts to make your listening room sound like the
    inside of a jazz club, etc.  Can this technology be used to remove, or
    improve upon, the acoustic problems of hockey arenas?
    
    The point's kind of moot for me anyway, we're looking for a house and
    there's no way I can afford new stereo equipment (I just sneaked the
    Hi-Fi VCR in, but only 'cause we can now rent every film in which Kevin
    Costner's butt plays the lead).
    
    Jamie
    

	Anyone ever heard of the Nak Model 480 ?  It's a 2-head 
	tape deck with Dolby B, and was available new about
	6 years ago for around $500+.

	I'm looking into buying one used and was wondering what
	it is, if anyone ever heard of it, is it good, etc.

	Thanks
	Ken

    Ken,
    
    They're excellent decks. I have three friends that own them and they've
    been very happy with them over the years, and they've had a lot of use
    with minimal trips to the electronic doctor other than yearly checkups.
    
    Mike

Re:         <<< Note 74.97 by GNPIKE::HANNAN "Beyond description..." >>>
>                          -< NAK Model 480 anyone ? >-
>
>	Anyone ever heard of the Nak Model 480 ?  It's a 2-head 
>	tape deck with Dolby B, and was available new about
>	6 years ago for around $500+.
>
>	I'm looking into buying one used and was wondering what
>	it is, if anyone ever heard of it, is it good, etc.

	It was a fine machine in its day.  But geesh, was that as 
	recent as 6 years ago?  I would have thought more like 10+
	years ago.

	The problem with a used tape deck is that they are principally
	mechanical devices.  There are lots of belts, gears, motors,
	bearings, pulleys, levers and capstans that just plain wear out. 
	Replacing them can be expensive.  And checking them out before
	buying is nearly impossible.

	In my opinion, there is significant risk in buying a second hand
	tape deck - especially one that has is older and/or has had lots
	of use.

	Bob

	Thanks for the info.  For the price I'm gonna go for it;
	even if something needs fixin' I'll still be ahead and
	fulfill one-half of a moreorless lifelong dream ;-)  

	I thought it would be older than 6 years too because I've
	never heard of this type.  I remember the CR1A, 2A types,
	then the BX models before that.  So maybe it is older but
	it hasn't been used by a taping fanatic so maybe it has
	some good years ahead of it.

	Ken

Re:        <<< Note 74.100 by GNPIKE::HANNAN "Beyond description..." >>>
>
>	Thanks for the info.  For the price I'm gonna go for it;
>	even if something needs fixin' I'll still be ahead and
>	fulfill one-half of a moreorless lifelong dream ;-)  

	Just be aware that a cheap "fixin'" will come in at $80-100.
	And that's for something simple like replacing an idler assembly.
	When a small plastic gizmo in my 582Z broke, it was going to 
	be at least $300 in labor alone to fix it.  I thanked the service
	guy and asked what kind of deal could they give me on a CR-3A...	
	You might to buy the deck with an attitude when it breaks, its
	history...

re     <<< Note 74.102 by STAR::SALKEWICZ "It missed... therefore, I am " >>>
             -< Tape decks are no different than cars, boats, etc >-

>    aint that always the way when you buy used anything Bob?
 
Well, I think Bob is coming from the point of "is it worth it?" vs. taking the
risk of buying something used.  I buy used cars, and yes, I take the risk of
it having some problems.  But, the car is a necessary entity, whereas a tapedeck
ain't.  Same w/ a boat, unless you use it for commutting.  And, same with
a house....  It is worth putting $5k into a house that you paid $150k for,
but is it worth putting $200 into a tapedeck that you paid $200 for?  

Not knocking the NAK deck Ken is thinking of buying; just pointing out the
diff in buying used items.

>    aint that always the way when you buy used anything Bob?
 
> is it worth putting $200 into a tapedeck that you paid $200 for?  

	That's the basic point.  With a tape deck, there is a significant
	chance of a repair that would cost as much as the unit did.
	The prime component for these kind of troubles is a VCR.

	Primarily electronic components are less risky.  There's not just
	much to fail.  Electrolytic capacitors do dry out in time, 
	especially if temperature stressed, but these should be good for
	ten years.

	My main stereo system has second hand pre-amp and power amp.  My
	main speakers are also second hand.  By doing careful shopping
	that's one way I've been able to afford a good stereo setup... 

	Bob_tech_head

	Well, I picked up the Nak 480 last thursday, dropped it at 
	the shop (Park Ave Audio/Video in Worcester) on friday, and
	picked it up yesterday.   It needed a couple of motor control
	transistors, a belt, and a tuneup (azimuth etc).  Grand total
	of $65.00 in repairs and the deck appears to be running very well!

	Now, does anyone know how to use the TAPE settings ?  There are
	2 buttons - one tagged ZX, the other tagged with EX and SX I think
	(in is ZX, out is SX or vice versa) - but I have no documentation.
	ANyone know what settings are for what tape types ?

	Ken

There's a separate button on the right for EQ @ 70 or 120.  The 2 other 
buttons are what I was wondering about.

Mike Rogers (thanks Mike!) gave me the following info:

 . The ZX setting is for metal (Type IV) tape
 . the EX setting is for normal (Type I) tape
 . the SX setting (Type II) is for the CRO2 tape

--- 
The EQ switch would be at 70 for CR02, 120 for normal.  What about metal ?

And why are there the ZX,SX,EX buttons in the first place if there's an
EQ switch ?  Is it like fine-tuning the bias ?   I'm a little confused...

Ken

Re:        <<< Note 74.108 by MONTOR::HANNAN "Beyond description..." >>>

> The EQ switch would be at 70 for CR02, 120 for normal.  What about metal ?

	70 �s

> And why are there the ZX,SX,EX buttons in the first place if there's an
> EQ switch ?  Is it like fine-tuning the bias ?   I'm a little confused...

	ZX, SX, EX buttons adjust the bias for the tape type.  It's not
	a fine tune, like the bias adjust that are on some decks, but 
	rather the major adjust.

	Bob

	P.S. Nakamichi uses the ZX, SX and EX designators because that is
	the coding they use for their brand of tapes.

	P.P.S. Handy dandy reference table...

	IEC     Common        Equalization
	Type    Description   Time Constant	Bias Setting
	----    ------------  -------------	----------------

	I	Normal		120 �sec	Normal Bias
	II	Chrome		 70 �sec	High Bias
	III	Ferric Oxide	120 �sec	High Bias
	IV	Metal		 70 �sec	(Very) High Bias

	IEC     Common        Equalization
	Type    Description   Time Constant	Bias Setting
	----    ------------  -------------	----------------

	I	Normal		120 �sec	Normal Bias
	II	Chrome		 70 �sec	High Bias
	III	Ferrichrome	120 �sec	High Bias
	IV	Metal		 70 �sec	(Very) High Bias

re: Bobw

>> And why are there the ZX,SX,EX buttons in the first place if there's an
>> EQ switch ?  Is it like fine-tuning the bias ?   I'm a little confused...

>	ZX, SX, EX buttons adjust the bias for the tape type.  It's not
>	a fine tune, like the bias adjust that are on some decks, but 
>	rather the major adjust.

What's wierd, and I think I've figured it out, is that you need to set
both the EQ *and* the bias (ZX,EX,SX) switches.  On other decks, it
seems like these 2 are combined into a single switch: CR02 for the right 
bias *and* EQ; METAL and NORMAL for the right bias and eq, resp.

Is this interpretation correct ?

Thanks
Ken

Re:       <<< Note 74.112 by MONTOR::HANNAN "Beyond description..." >>>

> What's wierd, and I think I've figured it out, is that you need to set
> both the EQ *and* the bias (ZX,EX,SX) switches.

	Correct.  But remember that weirdness is in the brain of the 
	beholder :-)  Seems perfectly normal to me to have separate 
	switches...

> On other decks, it seems like these 2 are combined into a single
> switch: CR02 for the right bias *and* EQ; METAL and NORMAL for the right
> bias and eq, resp. 

	Correct, these functions are often combined in some other brands 
	of tape deck.

	Bob

    Many decks no longer have tape type switches (Nak despite their
    reputation seems to hang onto the older technology), since they've
    standardized the notch system.  Normal tapes have normal write-lock
    holes, high bias have wider holes, and metal have wider holes plus two
    additional holes.  My Onkyo adjusts the settings automatically (so does
    the deck in my car for that matter), but there's a bias adjustment knob
    since the bias is different among brands.  Nak decks I believe are
    factory adjusted for their brand of tape, which is made for them by TDK
    or Maxell but with slightly better specs.
    
    Congrats Ken on getting a Nak, although your other decks weren't too
    shabby either.
    
    Scott_still_longing_for_a_BX300
    

        IEC     Common        Equalization
        Type    Description   Time Constant     Bias Setting    NAK Settings
        ----    ------------  -------------     ------------    ------------

        I       Normal          120 �sec        Normal Bias         EX
        II      Chrome           70 �sec        High Bias           SX
        III     Ferrichrome     120 �sec        High Bias           SX
        IV      Metal            70 �sec        Very High           ZX


	Note: if using metal, ZX should be set and it doesn't matter what
		the EX/SX button is set at.  [Is this correct ?]

								  Recommended
IEC     Common        Equalization				  peak Record-
Type    Description   Time Constant   Bias Setting  NAK Settings  ing Level (db)
----    ------------  -------------   ------------  ------------  --------------

I       Normal          120 �sec      Normal Bias         EX		-3
II      Chrome           70 �sec      High Bias           SX		 0
III     Ferrichrome     120 �sec      High Bias           SX		+3
IV      Metal            70 �sec      Very High           ZX		+5


:-)

    Anybody ever hear of NAD tape decks?  I'm currently trying to decide
    whether I want the Denon 710 or the NAD 6340.
    
    The Denon is a 3-head deck with dual-capstan tape transport.  The NAD
    is a 2-head, single-capstan design.  But the NAD has this feature
    called Play-Trim that sounds like a great thing for copying tapes from
    tapes ... here's what they say about it.
    
    	"This is, in effect, a specialized treble tone control that can
    	 be used to boost the treble from dull-sounding pre-recorded tapes,
    	 or cut it from bright-sounding ones.  Any NAD deck with Play Trim
    	 makes a better job of reproducing pre-recorded tapes than the best
    	 Nakamichis, I have found."
    
    To my ears they both sound great.  The Denon has the advantage in terms
    of the heads and tape transport mechanism.  The NAD seems like it would
    hold up better to the amount of use I would put it through.  I can't 
    really decide which one to buy.  Does anybody have any comments that can
    help me make up my mind?  I intend to own one or the other by week's
    end.
    
    ... Bobbb
    

re:           <<< Note 74.117 by CUPTAY::BAILEY "Season of the Winch" >>>

>                -< NAD or Denon, which is the better deck ??? >-
	
	When I helped out my brother in law buy a decent stereo system,
	we soundchecked both an NAD and a Harmon Kardon deck (in the same
	price range) by dubbing	selections from one of his cd's, and the 
	Harmon Kardon sounded much better we thought.  Have you tried
	listening to dubs made on both ?  Or just playback of some tapes
	you have ?  What's the warranty length on both ?  

	I've heard good things about Denon.  NAD seems to have a pretty
	good reputation too though.

	If you are going to use it for dubbing, I'd go for the 3-head deck.  
	That way you can do real-time sound checks, ie, you can listen to the 
	dubbed tape on playback while it's dubbing, and a/b source/monitor to 
	compare source and dub.  A *great* feature IMO.  No more rewind-play 
	to check how the dub came out, which is all you cna do with a 2 head 
	deck.

	I am curious about that play trim though.  I think it's supposed to
	be especially good for playing back tapes dubbed with Dolby.  The 
	salesperson said that it was _not_ an azimuth adjustment though
	(I think). So I wonder what this play trim really does.  

	Maybe you can send mail to tape-heads to ask for more opinions ?

	Ken

Bbb,,,

The NAD's I've looked at don't seem as good as the Denon's I've checked out, 
both in image clarity and my percieved quality of engineering and construction.

I would go with the three head, personally, since it allows you to monitor what 
is being recorded as its being recorded. This is an invaluable feature. 

Fog

>	(I think). So I wonder what this play trim really does.  

I think it sounds like its not much more than an adjustable high pass filter, 
maybe with some other waveform manipulation circuitry thrown in.

Definitely not to be confused with azimuth adjust, which may sometimes be
refered to as trim control. This feature physically re-orients the heads so you
can attempt to perfectly match the head allignment of the deck that layed the
tracks in the first place. 

I think Azimuth adjust and adjustable speed control are great features in a 
tape deck.

    I bet play trim is just bias adjust, found on most quality decks.  I
    agree, three heads are the way to go.
    
    Jamie

re       <<< Note 74.121 by STUDIO::IDE "Can't this wait 'til I'm old?" >>>

>    I bet play trim is just bias adjust, found on most quality decks.  I
>    agree, three heads are the way to go.
    
	But isn't bias only significant for recording/dubbing ?   I'm
	not sure...   the play trim is for playback.

	Ken

play trim is not the same as bias adjust, and its not the same as azimuth adjust

i can look at exactly what it says in the literature (i own an NAD 6300), but
offhand i know it's a filter that operates BEFORE the Dolby circuitry; so, it's
supposed to compensate for tapes which were poorly recorded with Dolby; it has
no effect during record

definitely get a 3 head deck, with bias adjust, if you want to do recording;
the NAD 6300 is such a deck, but it's been discontinued (i bought a
floor model about 6 months ago); NAD no longer makes any 3 head decks

azimuth adjust and pitch control would be great things to have (i'd gladly trade
the play trim for one of these), but good luck finding them; i don't even know
if top-end Nak's have them anymore

don't get auto-reverse, unless it's a mechanism that actually flips the tape
(like the Nak Dragon); again, i don't know if you can find this anymore

my recommendation for a reasonably priced 3 head deck, the Sony TC-K677-ES; i
bought one around the same time as my NAD for about $320, i think; Sony changes
their model numbers quite frequently, so that exact model may not exist anymore,
but there's probably one with identical features and specs in a slightly
different housing; make sure you're looking at the ES line; better quality than
the regular Sony line

- rich

p.s. there's a lot of discussion about decks in the AUDIO notes file; i did a
lot of reading there when i was shopping for mine

I second the 3-head deck stuff.  I have a 2-head and I'm sorry I didn't go for
a deck a little bit better then what I have (Harmon Kardon 2 head).

My HK deck has a bias boost/defeat knob.  Only useful for recording.  It
sounds like that "play trim" button is the same thing, accept it affect
playback.

what store are you looking to buyy at mon?  are you going to buy an extended
warr?  I bought 3 extra years of warrenty for my sony deck.  i've used it
once already.  i pretty much do all the rewinding and listening on the
sony, thereby saving the HK for recording only.

/jc

Re: Note 74.123 by ROCK::CAMPR::FROMM

> don't get auto-reverse, unless it's a mechanism that actually flips the
> tape (like the Nak Dragon); again, i don't know if you can find this
> anymore 

The Dragon does not flip the tape.  However, it has an automatic azimuth 
adjust.  This corrects the historical problem with auto-reversing decks - 
mis-alignment of the heads.

The Dragon, I believe, is still in production.  However, given that it 
costs about US$2000, it hard to justify these days.  For only about 
US$1200-1300, you can a get a pro DAT deck.

Bob_long_time_Dragon_owner

Play trim is neither a bias adjust, nor an azimuth adjust.  Play trim is 
similar to a variable loudness knob.

Every tape deck has a set of equalization curves that it uses to do
different things like accomodate tape type and (en/de)code noise reduction.
Every manufacturer chooses these curves for their tape decks, and you'll
surely find that every set of curves is different to some degree.  This is
why some tapes made on deck A sound great on deck A but crappy on deck B.

What NAD did, and I can vouch for their success in the matter, is to create
a fine-tuning knob for 'their' set of EQ curves.  This allows you to 
compensate for the difference in EQ curves between their and other decks.
A tape recorded on another deck using Dolby B/C will sound as-good (or in
one case I've experienced, better) than on the other deck.

- jeff

    >> don't get auto-reverse, unless it's a mechanism that actually flips
    the
    >> tape (like the Nak Dragon); again, i don't know if you can find this
    >> anymore
    
    >The Dragon does not flip the tape.  However, it has an automatic
    azimuth
    >adjust.  This corrects the historical problem with auto-reversing decks
    -
    >mis-alignment of the heads.
    
    then which is the Nak that flips the tape?
    
    re: DAT
    
    i thought about buying one, but i think i'll wait until they've been
    out a little longer (design improvements will surely come along), the
    price of blank tapes drops (this could take quite a bit considering
    that DCC will probably be pushed to the masses which will relegate DAT
    to a semi-professional category), and there's more people to trade DATs
    with; i'm sure i'll get one someday, but for now I'm happy with 2 good
    analog decks; with my setup now, i can hear a slight difference during
    recording when i flip the recording deck between "source" and "tape",
    but the difference is extremely minimal, and it's often difficult to
    say which i think is better
    
    - rich
    

I've recently seen the first adds for a Philips DCC (Digital Compact Cassette)
machine.  These machines will play and record standard analog cassettes AND
play and record the new cassette-size digital tapes.  Best of both worlds.

	~dave

re:  which deck flips tapes?

I think it's the BX300.  But Spine'll have to answer cause his housemate
has 2.

bob

    Well, I bought the Denon ... now I've got myself a real nice machine
    for recording.  I'll use my Sony as my play deck and "retire" the Sharp
    deck (actually, I'll probably sell it real cheap).
    
    Time to get the decks rollin' again ...
    
    						... Bobbb
    

    Bobbb,
    
    Don't sell your Sharp deck. Keep it and use it as a rewind deck to save 
    the wear and tear on your new Denon and your Sony decks.
    
    Mike

> re:  which deck flips tapes?
>
> I think it's the BX300.  But Spine'll have to answer cause his housemate
> has 2.

No, it's not a BX series deck.  I'm pretty sure the model number is
RX201.  It's really cool to watch 'em flip the tapes -- particularly
if you have two of 'em side by side and they do it in synch!

The RX201 is basically a BX125 with the flip capability added to it.  Oh,
plus the tapes go in upside down!

tms

	Re: Nakamichi's that flip tapes

	The Nakamichi's that actually flip the tape are the RX series.
	I believe there was an RX-202 and RX-505.  Maybe others.

	Re: DCC

	DCC will *not* record standard analog tapes, play back only for
	analog.

	Re: Cost of DAT tapes

	Agreed that the cost won't come down sharply, but brand name 120
	minute tapes can be had for as little as $6.

	Bob

    The RX-505 was a BX-300 with the flip mechanism.  The BX and RX series
    have been out of production for several years.  But - check stores like
    Tweeter or Cookin, they keep a database of their used equipment.
    
    Anyone seen the new Sony disc format?  It's like a small floppy, but
    it's supposed to hold about 90 minutes.  I hope the digital technology
    heads in that direction, since random access is way better than
    sequential.  Just with so many formats on the market it doesn't look
    hopeful.  Sony is supposed to be releasing some 500 titles in this
    format by the end of the year.
    
    Scott
    

	Speaking about Tweeter, they are no more in Worcester :-/
	I finally decided what the hell, let's get that camcorder,
	they're running a sale, so we went to Tweeter across from
	Spag's only to find locked doors and a sign on the window
	from creditors saying *the bank* owns everything in there now...  
	So then we went to the Greendale mall, only to find Tweeter had 
	been replaced by a _shoe store_.   I think that happened a while 
	ago, but I forgot.
	
	Mindy as wanted one for a while but they're so damn expensive!
	I told her it was not a setup ;-)

	So no Tweeter in the Worcester area.  Anyone know what's up	
	with the one across from Spag's ?  The ads don't even list one
	for Worcester anymore.

	Ken

There seems to be a lot of controversy among audiophiles surrounding Phillips'
implementation of Digital onto Compact Cassettes (DCC).

Apparertly, DCC's technology doesn't reproduce sounds as well as DAT or CD 
technology, and many DAT-heads claim that it even destroys important parts of 
the analog spectrum in its conversion of the signal into a "compressed" digital 
format.

I'm not ready to judge it, though.  Even if the technology is one qaurter as
good as DAT, it still may turn out to be superior to the best analog tapedecks, 
and it just wouldn't cut it in the market if it didn't anyways, imo.

    Just remember that both the Sony Mini-Disk and the DCC are using
    PASC compression. in non-detailed terms, PASC will determine
    the "loudest" point of music, and reduce the rest. So at one instance
    its a guitar tone, next its a drum beat, then a cymbal....Once
    this music gets compressed, its gone.....
    
    

RE:          <<< Note 74.136 by MONTOR::HANNAN "Beyond description..." >>>
                        -< no Tweeter in Worcester :-( >-

>        they're running a sale, so we went to Tweeter across from
>        Spag's only to find locked doors and a sign on the window
>        from creditors saying *the bank* owns everything in there now...

OH NO!!!  I am one of their creditors! I bought Rache a Tweeter's gift
certificate for her to upgrade her car speakers...

re:  DCC

DCC is based on someone else's idea of the your audio spectrum.
It eliminates all supposedly non-audible stuff to compress the
audio data.  But really, who is to judge what I can hear.
You lose out a lot with DCC.  Also, the projected cost of DCC
tapes will start at $10/tape - as expensive if not more than
some DAT tapes.  Get a DAT and do it right!  And you don't have
to flip tapes!  8-)

peace,
t!ng

re:         <<< Note 74.139 by CSCMA::M_PECKAR "As the decnet turns" >>>

> OH NO!!!  I am one of their creditors! I bought Rache a Tweeter's gift
> certificate for her to upgrade her car speakers...

I'd try calling another Tweeter _real soon_, like closer to Framingham/Boston.
Hopefully it's only the Worcester area that's going under (as opposed to all
Tweeter, etc), and hopefully they'll honor the coupon at another location.

How nice of you BTW ;-)   I recommend the Boston Acoustics...

Ken

I believe there was/is a Nak model (something -1000) that did the UDAR
(Uni-directional Auto Reverse).

re: DCC

I also don't like the idea of compression.  It's bad enough the music is
digital.  I'd prefer a full, uncompressed 16-bit stream.  I'm waiting for the
magneto-optical disks to come out.  Hopefully, they'll be cheap enough in a few
years (like blanks under 5 bux and the unit under $500).

adam_with_400_records_and_no_CD

>>magneto-optical disks to come out.  Hopefully, they'll be cheap enough in a few
>years (like blanks under 5 bux and the unit under $500).

Don't hold your breath for those prices, Adam.  Try quadrupling that
figure and it'd still be considered cheap!

peace,
t!ng

	I was up at the Unpleasant Lane mall last night doing a quick
	shopping spree.

	Anyways, I always stop at Cookin' to see what's new.  Right now
	and until supplies last, they're selling a NAK tape deck (did not
	get model #s) for $299 !!  Regularly $399.  Don't know much about
	the deck, but, it seemed pretty cool.  plus, i was in a hurry...
	(stores were closing!)

fyi
jc

    I was wondering if anyone could give me some information about the
    following taping equipment that I'm thinking about buying used. 
    Anything like retail price, general quality, or estimated depreciation
    value (since I don't know how old it is) would be grately
    appreciated....
    
    	NAK cp-4 shotgun microphones
    
    	marantz PMD430 portable tape deck
    
    thanx much
    
    	Mike

not that this really answers your question, but if i was buying a tape deck
used i would take it in to have it fully serviced, adjusted and calibrated by
a good shop; i think that this will run you about $50 (jeff, how much did it
cost for your Nak?), assuming that nothing needs to be replaced; i'd add this
cost to whatever your going to pay for the deck; just something to consider...

>(since I don't know how old it is)

the person you're getting from should be willing to tell you how old it is
and how much it's been used; of course, he could easily lie to you

- rich

>     	NAK cp-4 shotgun microphones

I don't like 'em.  The midrange is canned, the high end is harsh, and I
don't like the bass response.  They're also VERY, VERY directional and
placement sensitive.  If you're off center, you can forget about bass
response; and if you don't point 'em RIGHT at the stacks, then you'll
totally miss the mids and highs.  The only recording I've heard and liked
that was made with Nak mics was made with Nak 300s and with the cardioid
capsules in a 1500 seat theater.

A decent price on a good-condition used pair is probably $300 if they're 300
bodies, and $200 of they're 100 bodies.  GerG was asking between $400 and
$500 for his entire Nak rig (shotguns, omnis, cardioids, 300 bodies, cables,
and a power supply -- that was a *good* price for all that gear!!).  But if
the price is right......

> marantz PMD430 portable tape deck
  
I don't know much about the Marantz decks except that they do NOT pass the
signal during the flip, unlike the Sony D5 which does, so people might not
be happy patching out of you... but that can be a good thing! ;-)  Price for
a used 430? ... $100-$150 maybe??  I think they go for ~$300 new.

re: service on my Nak CR-2A (not a portable!)

...it was $100 for the tuneup and to fix a blown cap on one of the inputs.
I think the cleaning/demag/calibration/etc. (i.e. tune-up) was $60 at
Natural Sound in F-ham.


- jeff

>I don't like 'em.  The midrange is canned, the high end is harsh, and I
>don't like the bass response.  They're also VERY, VERY directional and
    
    How did I know you were going to say that if you responded Jeff? :-)
    
    Is there any mics that you *do* like that wouldn't cost someone a
    coupla' thousand dollars? (you picky DAThead :-) :-) :-)
    
    	Mike

>    	marantz PMD430 portable tape deck

i asked one friend who has a marantz and is happy with it what the model
number was, and his response:

>   PMD-430   Get one there awesome!

i've got another friend who also has a marantz and is happy with it; probably
the same model, but i don't know for sure (i haven't gotten mail back yet)

- rich

    thanx Rich.  The person I'm getting the equipment kind-of "inherited"
    it. (strictly legitimate)  He doesn't know that much about it and
    doesn't know what he wants to sell it for.  He'd probably accept a
    fairly low price, but I don't want to take advantage of his lack of
    knowledge.  The whole package includes the 2 NAK mics, deck, and power
    pack.  I decided I definitely want to make an offer, but when I talk to
    him tonight I don't know what kind of figures I should throw out.  Any
    ideas?  Rich, Jeff, anyone? thanx for the responses......
    
    	Mike

re: .148

I just got a Bela Fleck tape (12-?-92) that was recorded with a $300 pair of
Len Moskowitz's Core Sound Binaural mics.  F'n AWESOME TAPE!!!  This tape is
as good as my Bela dsbds!  And when I listened to it with headphones on, I
suddenly found myself immersed in the crowd -- the effect is amazing!  There
were people coughing, and clapping, tapping their feet all around me.  I
cought myself a couple of times turning my head at what I thought were
sounds coming from another part of our house, but it was just the tape...
...wild!

These are the tiny clip-on-your-hat types that are excellent for stealthing.
I'd have to say that the Core Sound mics sound better than Sonic Studios.  I
wouldn't use those type of mics at a Dead show -- all you get is the crowd!
;-)


> I don't know what kind of figures I should throw out.  Any ideas?  

That gear would probably fetch $400 to $500 used and in good condition.  I'd
offer $200 and see if he laughs... ...then offer $350.  How much homework do
you think this guy has done so far, and how well does he know his taping
gear?


- jeff

>offer $200 and see if he laughs... ...then offer $350.  How much homework do
>you think this guy has done so far, and how well does he know his taping
>gear?
    
    He doesn't know his gear, but he's probably doing his homework.  I was
    thinking I'd offer $300, but couldn't get ahold of him yesterday.
    
    	Mike

I second Jeff's opinion of Core Sound Binaural's. Tapes I have which are 
made with them have a wonderful ambiance. They clip right onto a pair of 
eyeglasses.

>>    	marantz PMD430 portable tape deck

>i've got another friend who also has a marantz and is happy with it; probably
>the same model, but i don't know for sure (i haven't gotten mail back yet)

yep, it's the same deck:

>Sure do!  It's a PMD430 (three heads).

- rich

Yo Mike!

First, ask him what he wants for the gear before offering him any money!
*Then* offer him $100+ _less_ ...  ;-)

That way you'll know if he's done his homework -- and besides, you might get
lucky!   


- jeff

PS -- and when it's all done, you can use some of that money I save you to
pay me my $50 consulting fee!!! ;-) ;-) ;-)

This question is directed to the various and sundry musicians in this file
(I think).

I'm interested in notch filters, for filtering 60, 120, 240 Hz hum from tapes.
I've been looking through my latest Full Compass catalog and there are
a couple of parametric equalalizers in there that look like they might do the 
trick.  That is, the Q of the filters can be turned up real hi (like to 20)
to make a sharp notch, and they have up to 20 db of cut.

HOWEVER, these parametric EQs are usually 4-6 band mono units, available
in 'dual-mono' or stereo configurations.  But I don't really need 4-6 bands,
only 3.  Well, I suppose those 2/71 Capital Theater tapes with the nasty
hi-pitch whistle might need a notch there, but I don't think those tapes
had a hum problem up at 120 or 240 Hs, so.. still back to not needing >4
bands.

SO, does anyone in the music equipment biz (Rane, Klark-Telnic, dbx, etc) make 
a parametric filter thats specialized as a notch filter?
stereo, 3 bands, ultra sharp notch, lots of cut?

And, where are there local (Boston area) music stores that would carry
such a beast?

thanks, Josh

I hear NoNoise systems can do this...

;-)

>And, where are there local (Boston area) music stores that would carry
>such a beast?

no clue if they have anything like this, but i'd suggest trying Wurlizter's;
they're a pretty good music store (i bought my keyboard from them); there's
one in framingham (or natick?) but i think the main store on comm ave. has
more of a selection of stuff

- rich

    I'm in the market for a new cassette deck...
    
    I was looking at a 2-deck JVC, but a friend who is very involved in
    trading tapes etc...told me that I'd be better off buying 2 seperate
    decks, if I plan on doing a lot of copying. Reasons: 2 decks, more
    hardware to break down, more electroncs involved, and usually with the
    dubbing function in a 2-deck unit, you don't have the capability to set
    the recording level as you dub.
    
    I'm planning to spend $200, maybe a bit more, and JVC was first
    thought, because I have a JVC CD player, and they have that connection
    between CD and Cassette that sets the best recording level when
    recording CD's.
    
    So, are there decent 1-deck cassette decks that are in the $100-$125
    range, or is a 2-deck unit acceptable, I'll be doing some copying, but
    I won't be making a living at it  :)
    
    thanx,
    
    Wes

    For $200???  i'd stay with your original plan...your friend is right that
    you'll get more flexibility and less noise from a 2 individual deck
    system....but it'll cost you much more than $200....
    
    For economy, you're doing the right thing....
    
    							dugo

    I bought a Sony TCRW535 dual-cassette deck a couple of months ago, and
    I'm real happy with it.  I was also limited to under $200.  I found the
    deck for $150, but I haven't seen it for under $199 since then.  (In
    fact, Lechmere has it on sale for $199 this week.)
    
    I use it for dubbing and for playing tapes regularly.  It's got lots of
    nice features, e.g., sensor for tape type, recording level meters,
    dual motors, and plenty more.
    
    The unit is great if you're not an audiophile, and I'm not.  My ears
    just can't tell the difference much of the time.  But I certainly
    haven't had any complaints from people for whom I've made copies,
    either.
    
    Bud

Hah!  got the GRATEFUL pudits punditing !  :-)

My turn... :-)

Ken, Jaime et. al, all got it about right, IMO.

Azimuth mis-alignent between any 2 decks will kill the high-end, more so
when Dolby is used.  So, people tend to not use Dolby, to reduce the tendency
of hi-freq. loss.  

Without Dolby, cassettes have an S/N of only around 55 dB (+/- 2 or so).
If you try to tape any decent DAT onto a cassette w/o Dolby, you _will_ have
a lot of added hiss, noticable on the quiet parts between songs (like when 
you turn up the volume to hear the on-stage band chatter).

Note that not all DATs are extremely quiet.  For example, some of the Europe 72 
boards were done on a cassette master.  Even with Dolby B, this'll be about 
62 (+/-) dB S/N.  

I disagree with Jaime about dynamic noise reduction, though.  When properly 
done, on a tape that isn't horribly noisy to begin with, I think its quite
difficult to detect its 'action' (ie. noise pumping with volume changes),
other than the fact that the tape just sounds a hell of a lot better, without
the hi-freq. noise!

Flame away! ;-)

Josh

    Analog is for wimps!
    


    ;-)
    

>    Analog is for wimps!

...or for those of us with families to take care of!  :-)

Hmmm...toss the kids...go DAT...yea, that's the way!  :-)

	call_me_dad

(Well, Dan Healy has a couple of Alesis 8 track ADATs in the 'board, so I 
suppose I can put this here in this note...)

The current issue of the high-end audio magazine "The Absolute Sound" has a 
lengthy interview with DH about the Dead's sound system.  TAS costs about $8
and the Paper Store in Maynard has 2 copies left.

I left my copy in my car this AM so I could get some work done :-).
However a quick perusal showed some extremely interesting information about
how the PA is incredibly aligned for time-smear, completely direct-coupled
from the instruments up to the power amps, digitally EQed, etc.

Josh

Well, I gave my stereo a present on Sunday:  118 ft of 10-gauge speaker wire
for the 2 sets of main speakers, and 100 ft. of 14 gauge for the 4 surround
speakers.

It really made a difference!  Basses have more bass, kick drums more kick,
kettle drums more kettle, cellos more cel (chel?)  :-)  
I'm sure my neighbors love it too... ;-)

I had been using 14 ga. for the big mains, 16 or 18 (not sure which) for the 
small mains, and 18 or worse for the surrounds.

I got all the wire at You Do It Electronics.  The 10-ga. is comparativly
inexpensive there, compared to "real" audiophile speaker cable like Monster
Wire.  Not sure how much the real fancy-schamcy audiophile speaker cable goes
for but its easily in the range of several hundred $ for like 10 feet!
YDI sells the 10-ga. for $.69/foot.  Its nice and flexible too, easy to bend
around corners.

Josh

    I've got a tape deck which has variable output levels, so I have to
    watch where I set things.  Normally I'll sample various spots on the
    tape, pick the one with the highest level, and set that around where I
    want the peaks to be (assuming tape hiss allows me to do that, of
    course).  With XL-IIS, I usually aim right around +3.
    
    Now, my play deck also has a peak hold feature, and every so often
    I'll look at it after doing some tapes, and find that I blew it
    somewhere, and hit a peak of 6 or 7 (it maxes out at 7).
    
    Should I
    a - figure it's probably just an isolated spot, and not worry too much
    about it.
    
    b - be a nice, concerned taper, and redo the tape.
    
    c - Start wondering why I'm worried about this in the first place.
    
    Note that, if I pick option b, I'm no longer taping onto a "new" tape,
    since it's already been taped on once while making the first copy.  But
    the fresh copy sound better, due to less distortion from peaking.
    
    Yea, I know.  I should just toss the first tapes, and start over again
    with nice, fresh, brand new tapes.
    
    Anyone got any opinions?  
    
    One can sure think of strange things when they really should be
    sleeping...

    What happens when you multiply the peak value by 1024?  :-)
    
    I'd re-record the tape.  As long as your erase head is working well,
    that wouldn't be a problem.
    
    	dave
    

re: loud peaks

It's a tough call.  At the BG-shows, the dynamic range was pretty big:
some spots were real quiet, but when it got loud, it got LOUD!  So the DAT
masters have a pretty wide range of signal (30dB or so, which is beyond the
range of the meters on most analog decks ;-).

This is problem when dubbing over to analog ... and I (and my fellow
DAT->analog tapers) have to make a choice between one or two loud peaks, or
recording the quiet songs at -5 or -10 dB.  I try to have the loudest peak
on my tapes at +5 or +6 (which is usually some loud part of drums, or when
Jerry bonks into the mic ;-) but even with that, there are still enitre
songs that never get above -5 on the meters ... So take yer pick --
slightly distorted in one or two spots, or drowned in hiss.

- jeff_who's_started_to_mark_analog_
  deck_level_settings_on_his_DAT_
  tapes_to_keep_from_having_to_
  figure_it_out_every_time_:-)
  

Here is a good argument for compression. Josh, where's the black box for that?

    
    someone in classified ads is selling some nakamichi equipment.  note
    #11919.
    
    fyi.

    Phyllis,
    
    Not sure if your note belongs here.  It is definitely void of words
    like "analog, digitize, peak(s), hisssss, xl, and erasurehead"
    
    c
    

    
    :-)
    
    

    I have a question about an issue I keep getting intermitantly (sp?)
    with my Digital equipment.  I have a Panasonic SV-3700 pro and a 
    Sony D/7 portable.  I have been trading tapes with a few individuals
    and every once in a while I get a DAT tape with this problem. 
    Basically, when I play the tape I get a crackle or a kind of snaping
    sound when the tape levels are at their maximum levels.  ie: when the
    levels jump to the farthest point in the level controls, I hear a small
    crackle in my speakers.  Now, my SV-3700 has an OVER indicator, that
    tells you that the levels are too high (ie: over driven) and distortion
    is probable.  This indicator light is NOT being lit when I hear this
    noise.  I tried fast forwarding/rewinding the tape to no avail.  I
    asked that these few tapes be retaped and some are okay afterwards,
    some are the same.  Now for the strange part, I took the tapes (about 4)
    that had this problem and put them in my used DAT tape bin, a few weeks
    later I decided to tape over one of them and decided to play it before
    recording over it, and the crackles were GONE !  None, sounds fine now.
    I tryed all the "bad" tapes and they were all playing fine now also.
    
    What gives?  Any ideas?  Has anyone with DAT had a similar problem?
    
    Thanks,
    Randy

> Basically, when I play the tape I get a crackle or a kind of snaping sound
> when the tape levels are at their maximum levels.  ie: when the levels jump
> to the farthest point in the level controls, I hear a small crackle in my
> speakers.  Now, my SV-3700 has an OVER indicator, that tells you that the
> levels are too high (ie: over driven) and distortion is probable.  This
> indicator light is NOT being lit when I hear this noise.  

The OVER indicator is only functional when recording.  It never lights during
playback.

If the tape was overdriven during recording (enough to produce digital
clipping at a signal level above 0dB), then you'll likely hear it, but the
over indicator won't light -- because the digital playback signal never goes
over 0dB.

Often, a loud PA pop or drum hit will cause the levels to go over 0dB when
recording, but the distortion is often not audible.  When Jerry croaks,
however, it's a totally different experience! :-)

> I tried fast forwarding/rewinding the tape to no avail.  I asked that these
> few tapes be retaped and some are okay afterwards, some are the same.  Now
> for the strange part, I took the tapes (about 4) that had this problem and
> put them in my used DAT tape bin, a few weeks later I decided to tape over
> one of them and decided to play it before recording over it, and the
> crackles were GONE !  None, sounds fine now.  I tryed all the "bad" tapes
> and they were all playing fine now also.
>     
>     What gives?  Any ideas?  Has anyone with DAT had a similar problem?
  
If the tapes were NOT clipped when they were recorded, then what you heard
before might have been the inability of the error correction circuitry to fix
the missing bits.  Some people have speculated that error correction is more
difficult during transients and loud segments (perhaps due to the difficulty
of correcting most-significant-bit-errors).

Did you check your error rates before and after?  Is there any difference that
might be evidence that the error correction circuitry was failing before and
is succeeding now?  

Did you try playinig the tapes in the D-7 (or any other deck) to see if it had
the same noise in the same spots?

Any time I see a dropout or any digital noise, I check the error rate of the
tape in that segment to see if it's high in that spot.  hit-n-hold-n-release:
MODE-RESET-PAUSE to get the error-rate/scms display.

If the error rate is low (no change from the rest of the tape), then the noise
may be in the recording, not in the playback -- in which case you're screwed
until you get a redub.  If the error rate changes, then it's an indication
that the tape has a bad spot, or the signal on the media is weak in that spot
(due to dirt in the recording deck, among other possibilities).

How many hours do you have on your 3700?
How many hours since your last head cleaning (dry tape preferred)?  
How many hours since your last TRANSPORT (capstain, pinch roller, guide posts)
cleaning?

The cleanliness of your deck can have a significant effect on how well your
tapes sound -- since error correction causes slight signal degradation in some
cases (due to interpolation) -- ask anyone in the AUDIO notesfile about how
the cleanliness of a CD affects the sound ... and duck! ;-)  

If your deck is cleaner now than it was before (say, because the tiny piece of
grunge that was blocking one of your heads is now gone), then the problem may
be fixed.


Oh, one more thing...



Make backups of those friggin tapes while they're still 'fixed'!!!



- jeff

Hi Randy,

First and foremost, what the error counter in the 3700 doing when you hear
the crackles?   Having that error counter is one of the reasons why you 
bought that 3700 (the other 3 being: the shuttle/jog wheel, the fact its pro,
and it reputation.  I know - I have 2).

When I get some tapes from someone, and I hear distortion, the first thing
I do is check if it corresonds with the error count spiking.
Sometime a previous gen was played back with errors/distortion, and that
copy (the one that you now have, or that your tape trading partner has and
copied for you) will sound lousy, although its error count is low.
Nothin' left to do but frown, frown, frown :-(

When I play tapes I usually don't hear any digital mistracking noise till the
error counter gets in the hi hundreds.  I had a tape that had errors in the
300's near the beginning, that used be lower, so I cloned it before it got
worse.  But I could still play it and not hear any distortion. 

I got tapes from Doug Moog that had errors on them when I played them.
I had him re-do a few, that were better the second time around.  I suspect
his deck might be a tad dirty, or mis-adjusted relative to mine... something
like that.

	Josh

    Thanks for the replys ...  When I played those tapes in my D7 I got the
    same results.  I checked the error counter and it wasn;t that bad.  I'm
    going to try them again now and see if the error count seems lower than 
    before.   My 3700 has about 35 hours on it and the D7 maybe 50, I
    cleaned the 3700 once already because I thought, initially, that
    the problem was a dirty spot on the heads.  I'll keep ya informed as to
    my results, in the mean time I'm going to dub the ones that sound good
    now and monitor the error rates.  Thanks,
    
    Randy
    
    

    I attempted to play the tapes that had magically stopped crackling and
    they are back to doing it.  I tried all four in both my decks, same
    results.  I guess I'll just try again in a few weeks.  
    
    RS>
       

    
    anyone know what nakamichi analog decks are out there these days?
    My friend is shopping for one and none of the model numbers sound
    familiar to me.  Any info on suggested models and prices would be
    appreciated.
    
    Thanks,
    Phyllis
    

re: Nak's

Nakamichi has changed their line a couple times in the last few years, so I
don't really have a clue what's out there now or for how much -- but it's
probably too much anyway :-)

About 5 or 6 years ago Nak decided to go 'mainstream' with their prices, and
skimped on their parts (knobs, switches, electronics) to drop their cost to be
more in line with Yamaha, Kenwood, etc.  Real big mistake if ya ask me, and
unless they've reconsidered their decision and gone back to their old ways, I
wouldn't recommend late model Nak decks.  All you're buying is a label, not
the high quality parts that you expect, IMO.

I'd suggest that your friend look into getting a used CR-7A and spending $100
extra to have it tuned/cleaned/tested/fixed.  IMO, that's the best deck for
the money (if ya get one used).  I've seen asking prices around $500 from
private sellers, more from hi-fi shops...

- jeff

    I to have been away from Nakamichi equipment too long to know the 
    new model numbers.  I was recently in a HiFi store that specializes in
    high end equipment that carries Naks and they looked nice but I can't
    speak for the quality.  I love my Nak 300 but its been in the shop
    since Dec. 7th (5 times back and forth) for several problems.  Of
    course, it has about 5000+ hours on it so....  I subscribe to Consumer
    Reports, and although they very rarely look at high end equipment, they
    do compare mid range stuff all the time and I belive it was 1-3 months
    ago they dedicated an entire issue to "the gear".  I was suprised to 
    see a few resonably priced Sony decks with excellent specs (20-18,000)
    with decent Wow and Flutter ranges.  Spec wise, they would compete
    directly with the likes of Nak and other high enders.  If quality is
    really an issue (and I'm not saying it is but a previous note eluded to
    that) then there might not be as big a difference in quality and/or
    specs between the Nak and a good Sony.
    
    Randy
    
    

Sigh.... It looks like I'm going to have to bring my Nak in for service soon.
Doesn't get a lot of traffic theses days, but I use it every now and again
to listen to Acoustic Slipknot whilst exercising, and the other morning 
it refused to play, rewind, fast forward or much of anything.  I need to 
take a quick look and try cleaning it well before bringing it in, but 
I'd rather not screw around with it too much.  Oh well, my D6C is still
available.


PeterT

    Well, definitly DON'T bring it to Stereo & Video Repair in Roswell GA !
    I brought my NAK BX-300 there after it ate a tape and it has been there
    5 times since, and the problem has yet to be fixed and I have spent
    $210 in repairs for a new motor, slide rules and other misc parts.
    
    It was finally sent back to CAL to Nak to hopefully be fixed once and
    for all !!  I broght it in Dec 7th and it hasn't run since !  Luckly,
    having gone to Digital format I haven't needed to dub many analogs, but
    it sure has been a pain anyway.....
    
    Hope you have better luck than I did.... lesson learned is check
    with Nak for certified service centers.....  I found out that the place
    I took mine to lists that it fixes Naks in the Yellow pages but is NOT
    certified.  The guy that worked on my deck was fired (for charging for
    things not really done to equipment !) and the new guy told me "I have
    never worked on a Nak 3 head deck before and it looks aweful 
    complicated, but I'll give it my best shot."  5 months later and I'm
    still without my deck (not to mention the $200+)  But, at least its
    finally in good hands.... with Nakamichi....
    
    RS
    
    
    Randy
    

    Well, I guess I will ask this repeated question once again.  A good
    DECk recommendation for alot of tape trading actvity. I currently have
    a Kenwood KXW 40/40 that has been cleaned and demagnetized regularly.
    This dual-well deck has been flawless and worked very well. I am 
    however looking for a single-well deck, preferably a 3-head.  I
    was leaning toward a NAK but the bad Notes press has me thinking.
    DENON? SONY?   Is Denon an OEM product?  I think about $400-$500
    would be my range for pricing.  Any thoughts would be helpful.
    thanks
    Todd Nicholson
    

I have a Denon DRM 800 that has worked flawlessly.  I'm happy with it.
You have tapes made with it. :-)

	dave

I saw a used Nak CR-7A (w/ manual azimuth adjust! :-) for sale for ~$500 not
too long ago.  Only problem is that I can't remember where.  sorry! :-( 

A used CR-7A in good condition is probably the best deck for the money, IMO.

- jeff

    a cleaning question...I've used the basic rubbing alcohol on q-tip deal
    for years on my old deck, but on my new deck, it is time for a cleaning
    again, and I've heard that the rubbing alcohol can "crack" heads and/or
    pinch rollers etc....I've also used the cleaning cassettes with
    solution deal from Radio shack etc...
    
    what do YOU use ??  I also demagnetize on a regular basis
    
    thanx
    
    Wes

	I use TCTF, or trichlorotriflouroethane, or something very similar.
	Josh can probably verify the name.  It's the same stuff used to 
	clean computer tape drives. Several years ago I picked up a mechanical 
	cleaner that came with this stuff as the liquid to add.  I forget the 
	brand name.  It's semi-expensive, but worth it.	
	
	fwiw, I've always found discwasher products to work well.  So far
	they've successfully cleaned my cassette decks, vcr, and most recently,
	a skipping cd player.  I've since reverted to using a q-tip like thing
	and the tctf for tape decks.
	
	/Ken

    Alcohol will hasten the drying out of the capstan and other rubber
    parts.
    
    Rubbing alcohol frequently contains things other than isopropyl and
    water and you probably don't want the extras in the tape path. Read the
    label.
    
    If you can find an electronic supply store, you can by the head cleaner
    solution there at reasonable prices. I bought a big ol' bottle of TCTF
    years ago for about $8 and it is still over half full. I think TCTF is
    a freon and may now be more expensive.
    
    gary

    thanx for the tips...I grabbed a little bottle of solution from Radio
    Slack, tctf is not available thru them, fwiw
    
    Wes

    I'm happy.  I figured out this weekend I don't have to rely on
    the dubbing capability of my tape deck, it's actually a twin 
    deck which means it's got all the inputs/outputs necessary to
    permit me to adjust record levels!  Good news for a tapehead,
    perfectionist that I am.

    This was a real problem (as _Jeff and Brian will recognize
    from our conversations) 'cuz it really cuts down on the record
    quality.  Now if the sound is low I can boost it on either or
    both channels.  Whew!

    Just a matter of opening the ole brain.

    Duh!  

    Tom

    
    How can you tap into the direct link that the twin cassettes share?  
    I've been tryin to do this for 10 years, as far as I know, it's 
    impossible without going into the deck.  The only way I've found to 
    deal with this is use another, external deck with a line-in to the 
    recording deck.

    I don't, that's the trick.  I set my amp rec out selector to deck 1,
    play the source tape in deck 1, and record onto deck 2.  Both decks
    in my Yamaha twin have input level controls and separate i/o jacks.
    Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that's the difference between a dubbing
    deck and a twin deck.  I have a twin deck that does dubbing too.

    If I use the dubbing feature, I can't control the input level but
    the amp is left out of the loop altogether, which means it's free
    to do other things if I don't feel like listening to the tape.

    Of course, with rec out selection I can also listen to something else
    anyway.

    Dave Levy and esp. Tim Grady may also recall conversations on
    this issue.

    Tom

	not being taper-tecknology-knowledgable, got a question.
	I was listening to a '73 tape coming in today, and Bobby was
	coming out of the left speaker.  How'd that happen?
	Is it like when they turn the negative upside down during the
	printing process and everything is a mirror image?!?

	Debess

    
    Were you driving in reverse?
    

	no, she was driving in new hampshire.
	
	maybe it wasn't memorex?

    IT's A PLOT BY PAT BUCHANNEN!!!!!

Very simple:

1. the tape may not have been mixed Jerry-left, Bob-right when it was made
	at the show in 1973.  

and/or

2. Somewhere along the way, someone got their deck's L/R connections reversed
	when they copied the tape.

Wanna hear something that'll blow your mind?  According to the 
Tapes_in_Circulation list at 

	http://mars.tiedrich.com/tapelist/tapefaq.html

10/19-20/74 are AUDs !  
If you listen carefully to 10/19/74, you will hear the L/R channels swap.  
I think the tape was spliced together.  Keith's piano should be on the Right. 
I believe its:

        Songs with  * are reversed stereo (Keith on Left)
   Set 1:                                 Set 2:
   Mississippi 1/2 Step *                Uncle John's Band *
   Me & My Uncle *                       Big Railroad Blues
   Friend of the Devil *                 The Race Is On
   Beat It On Down The Line              Tomorrow is Forever
   It Must Have Been The Roses *         Mexicali Blues
   El Paso *                             Dire Wolf
   Loose Lucy                            Sugar Magnolia *
   Black Throated Wind *                 He's Gone *
   Scarlet Begonias *                    Truckin' -> *
   To Lay Me Down                        Caution -> *
   Mama Tried *                          Drums -> *
   Eyes of the World -> *                Truckin' *
   China Doll *                          Black Peter *
   Big River *                           Sunshine Daydream


Josh

    
    Anyone have a standard, single or double cassette player they want to
    sell for cheap?  It must have standard RCA jacks.
    
    One of the players on my double cassette is cooked and I'd rather just
    buy another single cassette deck and run it through my receiver so I 
    can adjust the levels and record onto the remaining player that works.