Conference rdvax::grateful

  FWIW - I would like to take some of the heat off Prob.

  I am for the war, I suppose I wish Sadam some sort of evil or
bad, I dunno know, but I am offended by many of the racist jokes,
mainly hardcopy here in CX0.  I suppose it is to be expected, but
if we can keep them out of Grateful better yet.  As I said, I do 
support this war, but I feel no hatred, disgust, or distain for 
Arab, Iragis or .... and do appreciate the removal of what I find
to be objectional entries.  Perhaps not through censorship, but 
I doubt Prob gets his thrills by censoring.

  john 

    
    it just seems like Grateful existed for five years without any problems
    and very little moderation... 
    	... now ... well, it's happening all over the world I guess...
        
    Mary

Can't offensive content be delivered in notes other than jokes?

- Dave

I have deleted a reply I WROTE on .3 ...

I have no solution to this problem.

re:           <<< Note 3.4 by ISLNDS::CLARK "the doublespeak decade" >>>
   >                        -< no notes in GRATEFUL? >-

>Can't offensive content be delivered in notes other than jokes?

I agree with - Dave. Think about for a minute. For instance I am a memeber
of the NRA and I've heard lots of jokes about the NRA, but they are only jokes
so I laughed, but then again I've seen/heard snide remarks made by people that
mean/beleive what they are saying and I find THAT offensive. ANd this can 
apply to every subject matter we discuss in Grateful.


Shawn

  Is it legal to be a member of the NRA & a Grateful Dead group too???
You must take harassment from _all_ sides, and I'll bet your parties
are interesting too.  Set list:

  Stars and Stripes Forever
  Box of Rain
  johnnie Get your Gun
  Morning Dew
    ...
    ...

 please know that I think we are smiling together. 

  john 

RE: .6

Make that 2 of us. I also am a member of the NRA. Have to do everything we can 
to protect our rights. ALL of our rights

Geoff

re:          <<< Note 3.7 by OURGNG::RYAN "going where the wind blows" >>>




> please know that I think we are smiling together. 

  Your not wrong in thinking that john.

Shawn 8-) 8-) 8-)  8-)

p.s. My wife refers to me as commie sometimes because of some of my 
"unpatriotic" ideas.
 

re:                        <<< Note 3.8 by AIMHI::KELLER >>>
   
>to protect our rights. ALL of our rights
                       ^^^^^
That's the key, all to often people let pick and chose things to defend.

Kinda like our gubmit.

Shawn

    RE: 7
    
    >> Stars & Stripes Forever
    >> Box of Rain
    
    Hmmm ... seems to me I have a tape somewhere that's got the boyz doing
    Stars & Stripes Forever.  I'll have to find it now ...
    
    								... Bobbb
    

    Re3.6/8
    
     Make that at least 3 of us. 
    
    Divide Dave
    

have ya heard the one about the two hillbillies at an NRA loaded gun show..............

    
    
    a cautionary note from your friendly neighborhood moderator_from_hell...
    
    
    	please keep in mind when taking advantage of the designated joke
    topic, that racial and ethnic jokes are not always viewed as being
    humorous!!!!  in fact, racial and ethnic jokes are, at best, tasteless
    and inconsiderate...  at worst, they are degrading, insulting, offensive
    and maybe more...  while some individuals may consider them amusing,
    others find them quite offensive...  as such, it is the policy of the
    moderators to delete or set hidden such jokes when they occur...
    
    		please, consider whether your "humorous" comments may
    	cause offense...
    
    					da ve 
                    

    
    ? from me too..  I seem to have missed something.  But as long as we're
    talking about it...
    
    I for one do not like the way this new grateful has turned out.  I
    think the moderation has gone way overboard.  I know we began with the
    best of intentions.. preserving the free form spirit of the old, while
    allowing a little organization into the new so that we can find the
    info we need.  However, I think this has been translated into a
    scenario where almost every digression is jumped on, folks don't know
    where to write anything for fear of having it moved or deleted, and
    generally an atmosphere of less participation and more anxiety reigns.  
    
    Am I the only one that feels this way?  Please let me know.  If so,
    then I'll bow to the majority and Grateful will remain as is.  But if
    not... well, maybe it's time for another change.  I don't know.. maybe
    I don't really have a handle on what this community needs.. I mean, I
    didn't really think we needed an 'organized' Grateful to begin with..
    but then, I know how to use keywords. :-)  
    
    I agree that certain notes.. VERY few of them.. should be digression
    free.. like the one that contains mail order instructions.  And
    actually, off the top of my head, that's the only one that comes to me. 
    I mean is the world really gonna collapse if there's a tangent or two
    anywhere else??  
    
    What do you think?
    
    Phyllis
    
    

Well, I am one of the people who sent John Ryan mail.  In catching up with
notes (or trying to, will everyone please quite down a bit until my workload
subsides :-) I noticed that John Ryan's title for 142 had been changed "at 
liberty" (to those confused souls see .4 to that note).  It angered me.

I wrote the note below and planned to enter it at lunch (at class this morning).
I am going to enter it still even though I'll probably have more to say after
reading replies ..... ;^)



I am bothered by something which I would like to open a discussion on....

I feel that changing a note's title at liberty (I read this to mean w/o
consulting the author, I could be wrong) to something that fits better *in the
opinion* of the person changing it is insulting to the original author and a
misuse of the privileges which were needed to affect the change.  If it were my
note I'd change the title back! 

Of course, this is all one woman's opinion - I don't expect it to be a 
consensus, I also don't expect to be totally off in left field by myself.
But hey, I am bugged and feeling a little bit like I am in kindergarten and
subject to the teach's rules and I decided to let it out.  Thank you.

Bob, maybe John Ryan really liked his title ... besides it's relevance is a
subjective call afterall.  He excersized his "artistic liscense" and titled his
own note, was changing the title to a verbatim description of the note contents
really necessary?  I don't see it.  Especially considering that John did keep
within the subject, in his opinion at least (that being the opinion of the
author).

Lisa

   
  Well even though I still think we may be over moderating I gotta say on
Note 142, so that was the note ;-), that Bob politely posted the action, thus
leaving himself open for feedback.  I believe if I am asking for more under-
standing from the Mod, then I can give more understanding back.  Sure he 
should not have taken the liberty, but it was posted immediately and it
was for clearness not anything else.

  So i guess drop my complaint, but let me also add that I don't see any need 
for a lot of moderating.


  john

From note 2.0 of this conference (just to re-iterate the policy)...
    
    4.  The moderators will not restrict/control or otherwise censor
    	regulate a discussion based solely on subject matter...  for
    	instance, a woman's right to choose an abortion may be a 
    	sensitive or offensive topic for some, but the mod's will not
    	intervene based on the subject matter alone...  intervention
    	will be based on the *content* of the discussion...
    
    5.	Moderators will be empowered to act on their own, but matters
        requiring moderator intervention that could affect the moderation
        policy of the file or could dramatically affect a discussion wil be
        discussed amongst some of the moderators before "permanent" action is
        taken.    
    

	my opinion is that we are being over-moderated...to the
	point of losing some of the "prankster" qualities we all
	know and love.  I don't like being SO organized (just look
	in my cellar...NOOOOOO DON'T ;-)

	that said,
	I have to admit that I like the "GD setlist" note.  I like
	to go into it and just find setlists.  I like that it's 
	separate from reviews/comments.  I like that all the setlists
	that will ever be entered will be in that one note.  What I
	don't like about it is that the reviews/comments note is
	so far away (numerically) from it.  And also...don't y'all
	think that things like setlists and reviews of shows should
	be some of the first notes in the file?  (I do know how to
	use keywords, btw)...it's just WEIRD to me to find this important
	note up in the 60's...

	The notes that I don't like separated are the "lyrics/chords
	wanted and given" notes.  Those seem ridiculous to separate (to me).
	But then, again, it probably is nice for someone to just
	find lyrics/chords in one note without digression.  It's just...
	so conFUsing to get a request and then have to remember to
	NOT reply right there.  Maybe...maybe...have one note and
	when the request gets filled, the request can be deleted...

	Debess

    
    Being an organized person myself I like the new notes file.  I was new
    to the company last year and found it difficult sometimes to find
    information without paging thru many notes of discussion and
    digression.  It is much easier to put a handle on important info in the
    new file - like mailorder instruction, hotline info, phone numbers, set
    lists, etc.  But I must admit I feel a little constrained sometime for
    fear of putting something in the wrong place or starting a digression. 
    I think it would be grate to have a happy medium between the old file
    and the new one.  I for one believe soem notes should not have
    digressions - for example the set list note - I remember paging thru
    many notes to get to the set list I was interested in.  I feel though
    that I am getting a hang of the organization and know where to put
    stuff.  One thing that is kinda upsetting me recently is how tense and
    heated some of the discussions have been in here.  I don't remember
    people getting this upset in the old file.  I think most of it is due
    to the fact that we are communicating with typed text and that makes it
    difficult sometimes to have a conversation.  Maybe we should have some
    other digression notes - for example - "Don't You Hate it when....",
    "Don't You Love it When....", "Ya Know I was Thinkin'.....".  Just some
    ideas.  
    
    Happy Cheese-
    Jerry

I mostly like the set up now.   Like Debess I like the set lists in the
set list notes w/no discussion.  Recently I went through GRATEFUL_OLD
trying to find some set lists and had a h*ll of a time finding them.  I 
also think the reduced digression has allowed me to apply a little self
discipline and reduced my noting considerably, allowing me to do what I
get paid to do.


That said, I do miss the "prankster" stuff, etc, and wish there was a little
more fun in here.  This is a place I come to find out whats up with the 
band, plus to get a little relief from the rest of the world.  And I must admit
the fear of someone poised to hit the delete key has me a bit paranoid of 
what I enter where.


I like the organization, but maybe we can lighten up a little bit and not
be so quick to hit the delete button.




Jim

In my opinion, in might be better to ask the author's permission
before changing a note's title unless there is some corparate policy
that is being violated (or conference policy)...

I don't mind the topics already set up as guidelines but I'm not sure
it should be enforced by the moderators unless we agreed to it for a
particular note (perhaps if it is marked no discussion)...

RE:  Different digression notes.  REALLY!  THERE SHOULD ONLY BE ONE
DIGRESSION NOTE.  HOW DARE YOU INSINUATE THAT THE DIGRESSION NOTE BE
DELIBERATLEY DERAILED!  WE MUST KEEP IT ON TRACK!!!



PS:  Only kidding on the last part

John, you are the author of the note and it doesn't bother you so I suppose
this is my cue to quiet down.

but first ... ;^)

it still irks me.  Suggesting a change for the sake of clarity is fine but
simply changing another's words isn't, in my book.  You as the author derserved
to be approached regarding a title change.  Whether the new title is clearer or
not is immaterial, IMHO ... the world would still have revolved if a little
more time (and hence consideration) was taken regarding that action.  Even
newspaper editors confer with journalists before printing edited stories ... at
least that is the expectation, and it is part of an editor's job to change
another's words. 

But this is one instance and John seems to be OK about it so now I *will* clam
up, about this.  One last comment on the subject holds - if this were to happen
to me Expect that I'll raise a hellraising ruckus and change my title back
before I let it slide.  I don't like being spiteful but I'd sooner do that than
comprimise *my* freedom of expression based on another's differing perception.

Now, enough said.



As for the general discussion Phyllis has started in her reply I have a little
to say.  I can feel the anxiety ... I see the jabs about digressing and the
moderators.  While they are funny they are also clues that people are bothered.
Yesterday I felt like it was an us/them thing .... and I was one of "them"
(moderators) and it didn't feel good I tell you.  Especially when I am as 
anxious and irked and saddened as the people taking the jabs seem to be.

I like the idea of organization, part of my nature is to be organized. Another
part of my nature (as suprised as you may be to hear this) is to be a prankster.
I found a mix and didn't foresee much of a hassle in doing so for notes either.
(which could be immaterial considering this is what is natural to me).  But
some of the things I see happening are going past extremes.  Some notes here
are much more beneficial to everyone the more organized they are ... so they
NEED moderation and organization.  Other notes will serve thier purpose 
irregardless of digressions or fun-poking.  They do NOT need the same level
of moderation/organization.  All these notes CAN co-exist in one file!!
Obviously it is a bit of a challenge to many of us but hey, we LOVE this file ..
I for one, think it is worth it.  And by the way, there is another purpose to
some of the notes (as well as the file in general) which Jim pointed out.
Namely the release and free-flow discussion with friends which IMO has been
inhibited by the what so many are calling "over moderation".

For the life of me I still cannot understand where the major split between
organization and fun occured.  We can have it all!!  Let's just please not
try to Organize our Fun ... that can't work.

This file is not solely an organized index of Grateful Dead information
NOR is it solely a fun free-for-all discussion between friends.  It's both, or
it is trying very hard to be.  PLEASE let's all try to remember that!

Lisa

well I for one don't know what in hell's tarnation you all are even
talking about....note titles etc....but I can gather from the gist of
the last few notes....

I think things are fine in here....I appreciate a few of the notes
that are "non digressing" notes.  I like the set list note to be that
way although it took me one simple (and nicely put) warning about me
digressing in a non-digression note...all I did was move it.

With the non-digress notes I can come in here in a whirlwind (busy busy)
and go to the note I know....and read it and exit...without wading thru
all the chatter.....and come back when I have more time and read that too.

as for the question - "bob, do you feel overly moderated?"
My answer is - "No, I don't.  I felt there was a need for a small amount
of moderation"....and I can say to you all PLEASE don't confuse organization
with moderation....you do need moderation (small pokes with electric
cattle prods) to achieve this in this community however....

do moderators of this conference feel like they are walking a tight rope
between grateful old and grateful new...????...have no fear mod's I haven't
been involved with any issues I felt detracted from this file...


just play the tapes, grateful_old style is GONE!  this is 1991 :) and 
grateful_new_new
everybody have some fun eh?! and take geoff's word from another note....

bob

This is a personal preference thing.

Personally, I like the new organized grateful.  As others have pointed it,
it is much easier finding things like set lists, etc...

everyone just needs to relax a bit i think.

    One thing that's breaking the "organization" in here is that us
    commoners can't add a note where it belongs. For example, when we
    wanted a Dylan topic, a good place for it might have been in with the
    several empty notes reserved for the non-Dead music discussions. But
    since those empty notes are reserved, we can't change them. So when the
    need for a new topic comes up, we can only create a new topic for it.
    We have no control over where it goes, other than it being the last
    topic in the file. So, there goes the organization because related
    topics are now scattered.
    
    What's the solution? Obviously we can't all be moderators. We could
    have a "request for a new topic" note, but given the delay in waiting
    for a moderator to create the topic, the spontanaity is gone.
    
    Scott
    

	"Dylan"?  Did someone say "Dylan" ??  ;-)

	I think a little more organisation than GRATEFUL.NOTE;-1 had is
	desired, for the sake of those who want to be able to look up
	setlists etc.  

	I guess, like Bob W. said at the genesis of the Dylan note, that I 
	could have just started one.  Funny thing, it never occured to me,
	I guess I've gotten used to regulated files like CARBUFFS, AUDIO,
	HOMEWORK, and the most organized notesfile on the Planet, HIKING ;-)

	But, like Scott said, just dumping a Dylan note at the "end" of the 
	notesfile kinda doesn't appeal to the idea of grouping musical
	discussions in some way.

	heck, I dunno. "I got mixed up confusion, Mahhhnn an' itsa killin' me!"

	(there! I got my obligatory Dylan quote in!  ha! :-)

	Josh

Don't forget that this file was discussed for weeks in Grateful.old before
ever being created.  Everyone was asked for suggestions for notes to occupy
the first 100 slots and furthermore the directory was shared at least twice
for a week before the notes were created.  Everyone had thier chance whether
they actually had the ability to create the notes or not, we can't read your
minds.  The note is in the file now, thanks to Bob White ... isn't that good
enough or should we continue to argue about where to put notes and who is
digressing where.  That's not what I came into this note for, and I have better
things to do, so .. goodbye.

    
    Scott,
    
    Note 5 is where you would put in a request for a new reserved topic.
    
    Well, I'm glad to hear from most of you who responded that you like the
    new file and don't mind all the organization.  I still can't for the
    life of me understand the fervor of our new non-digression notes policy
    (and there's a lot more of them than just set lists, mail order
    instructions, etc) but that's just my opinion.  And I still do believe
    that folks are feeling inhibited and overmoderated.. even if they won't
    admit it. ;-)  (Can you tell she was a psych major or what? ;-))  
    
    As far as my own personal stress level goes.. in case anyone's
    interested.. I survived the dentist. :-)  In fact, it was the most
    painless dental experience of my life and I'm not even scared to go
    back for the rest.  REally.  I just reread that and I can't even
    believe I typed it!  And.. in case anyone's interested in the absolute
    best song to drown out the sound of dental noise to it's Wharf Rat. 
    Loud.
    
    Sorry for the interruption.. we now return you to the discussion in
    progress..
    
    :-)
    
    

RE:           <<< Note 3.31 by TERAPN::PHYLLIS "Wake, now discover.." >>>

>    painless dental experience of my life and I'm not even scared to go
>    back for the rest.  REally.  I just reread that and I can't even
>    believe I typed it!  And.. in case anyone's interested in the absolute
>    best song to drown out the sound of dental noise to it's Wharf Rat. 
>    Loud.

Aren't the drugs they have to reduce pain great?????

JC, who dislikes going to the doctor and dentist.

Note 5 was established to request new "organized non-digressatory" topics.

The reason the Dylan Topic didn't make it into the first 100 notes is this.
During the process of organization, it became clear that there wasn't enough
room for all the "other band and other type of music-related notes." There were
specific requests for a Dylan note, a Blues note, a Hot Tuna note, A Hunter S.
Thomson note, etc., etc., 

	There weren't enough reserved topics to hold all these, and to be fair,
it was mutually decided that rather than have some and not others, all notes in
this category would be placed on the un-reserved side after grateful_new was
let loose on the general noting public. After all, it was reasoned, these
topics really aren't that Dead-related anyway, right? Also, this way we
wouldn't get complaints like "how come there's a reserved topic for the blues,
but not for Bluegrass?" Or, "How come there's a Dylan topic, but not a Smiths'
topic?"

	Without launching into an emotional tirade about how frustrated I am
that you just can't please all the people all the time, and how we clearly have
factions who are saying Grateful is too organized and factions who are saying
it is not organized enough, let me this. INSTEAD OF MAKING A BIG DEAL OUT OF
THIS, TAKE A FEW MINUTES AND THINK ABOUT HOW THE ISSUES SURROUNDING THE 
ORGANIZATION AND MODERATION OF GRATEFUL STACK UP PRIORITY-WISE AGAINST OTHER 
ISSUES YOU HAVE TO FACE EVERY DAY AND LIGHTEN UP A BIT.

Thenk you.

A very frustrated moderator.

RE:               <<< Note 3.33 by SPICE::PECKAR "Congratulations!" >>>


Sorry for screaming in -.1 I take it kinda personally when there are bad rythms
generated against Grateful because I was primarily responsible for this
organization scheme. I'm not mad at anybody, but I still think I need to hit da
ve for what he did in note 815 in Grateful_old.  :-}

Forgive me.

Fog

Hey Fog,

HOW COME THERE'S AN OFFICIAL FEED YOUR FACE NOTE BUT NO OFFICIAL FEED
YOUR CAT NOTE?!?



PS:  Only kidding.  I don't even have a cat.

RE:              <<< Note 3.33 by SPICE::PECKAR "Congratulations!" >>>
                               -< big nit time >-

>it is not organized enough, let me this. INSTEAD OF MAKING A BIG DEAL OUT OF
>THIS, TAKE A FEW MINUTES AND THINK ABOUT HOW THE ISSUES SURROUNDING THE 
>ORGANIZATION AND MODERATION OF GRATEFUL STACK UP PRIORITY-WISE AGAINST OTHER 
>ISSUES YOU HAVE TO FACE EVERY DAY AND LIGHTEN UP A BIT.



	Thank you Fog.

	Well said.

    please don't hit me Mikey!!!  if you do, i'll tell them all that the
    congrats note was all YOUR idea (and knowing this crowd, they would
    believe me! :^)...
    
    					da ve
    
    ps. thanks for the words...  i both agree with and forgive you...

An observation from the rear (or should that be front :)

the only ones that seem to have a problem or at least that are
vocalizing the perceived/real problem seems to be the MODERATORS.

what gives, and if you all are talking about off line mail then
how should we know what you're talking about?

I don't see anyone here complaining except for moderators....

so Mod's may be best to take your own advice...
,lighten up....

bob

ps.  I think you are all doing a fine job....I can take it any way...
so don't worry about displeasing me....or anybody else....

    
    Well, I can only speak for myself..
    
    Yes, I'm a moderator but I consider myself a conference member also.  I
    know I've been feeling that a lot of the moderator actions in here are
    somewhat heavy handed and I don't like it.  I've also noticed quite a
    few comments floating around about digressing and write-locking and
    deleting, etc.. which led me to believe that I wasn't the only one
    getting annoyed... so I decided to talk about it.
    
    
    
    

That's fine Phyllis!  I just thought that from reading what
I've been reading that there is maybe more going on "behind
the scenes" than meets the eye for the casual reader of 
grateful like me....

oke-doke!
bob

ps.  I hope you your mouth is feeling better....

    
    
    yeah...  kinda what Phyllis said...  although i don't have problems
    with the moderator actions that have been taking place (people have to
    act in accordance with thier own conscience-which is cool-and there
    ain't no problem in here so big it can't be fixed), mine is more an
    "attitudinal" thing that occasionally turns into little us/them
    scenes...  a lot of stuff, visible and invisible, comes home to roost
    with the mods...  and a lot of that attitude stuff manifests itself in 
    heightened frustration levels all around...
    
    if i were to answer the musical question "what i want to know is, are
    you kind?"  a lot of times lately i would have to say no...  we as a
    community have not always been as kind as we could be to each other
    lately...  after all, it's only a notesfile, and kindness is free...
    if we want to foster it "out there" we should be fostering it in here
    too...
    
    that's it for me...  thanks for your kind attention...  :^)
    
    			da ve_the_kind_moderator_from_hell

add another yea to what da ve and Phyllis said.  I can feel frustration,
both projected at me, in general - as a moderator, and projected from me
as a result of the general attitude I see lately within the file.  Like all
big changes there are things we all like about the new grateful and things we 
all dislike about the new grateful.  We have to try to have patience and let
ourselves adapt, be a little bit more understanding of one another and stop
creating "sides".  And above all, remember how much we love this file and
one another.

Lisa

Ok!

Thanks for the messages - I said in my first note that I thought you
all were doing a good job....I hope the other msgs I put about where
I perceived all the frustation to be helped you to think about it...

You know it's a tough job but someone has to do it :) :) :)

one thing to remember:
If you had 2 people you could walk a line between them....the more people
you have the less you'll please and that is plain and simple....

I hope you all still enjoy the tasks cause it would be hell and frustration
to NO END if you didn't...

bob

	Hey now!  Let me say one more thing about this moderation
	subject, and then I'll drop it...

	I know there are all kinds of people in this world, all
	kinds of deadheads in this world, all kinds of DECheads
	in this world...no problem AT ALL...

	even though I am not the most organized person in the world
	I have some very close friends who certainly would be in
	the top 10 list of the most organized people in the world ;-)

	we don't try to tell eachother to CHANGE - but we DO get into
	some pretty heavy "jabbing" (as someone put it) at eachother.
	It's all done in fun and taken in fun...no hard feelings 
	intended.  I guess underneath it all is this question of
	"how can they BE like that?" (on both sides)...but we realize
	that we ARE like that and the best way to deal with it is
	by kidding around...


	Thank you Phyllis and Lisa for bringing this out to the open.
	I guess some of my initial "jabs" were done because I was 
	having some fun and BobW didn't appreciate it and I dealt with
	it by kidding around.  Maybe I should have sent mail or dealt
	with it directly in here - just not my style though.  I made
	some sarcastic remarks and maybe this is not the medium to do
	that in - but that's how I am.  So now I have a chance to
	explain myself - hope y'all understand me a bit more.  I don't
	want to change Bob ... I think I KNOW where he's coming from... 
	but I'm different and I only HOPE he can appreciate where 
	I'm coming from.  

	Finally, I guess in the future I will again be jabbing at someone
	in here...I'll be sure to add lots of ;-)'s when I do...


	and finally, finally, I also want to thank ALL the moderators...
	you have a tough job here trying to please THIS diverse group.
	Of course this isn't of monumental importance, but it's good
	to get this out in the open, true?

	Debess