Conference mr1pst::music

    .0�I know karaoke comes to us from Japan, but where in the US did it
    .0�catch on first?  I assume the West Coast.  Is it popular in 

    	I'm pretty sure it was began in the Islands of Hawaii. I have a
    friend who lived over there when it first started, according to her.
    
It's all over now...fun to watch! and do I suppose...:*)
    
    B.A.

    >Where (in any city) are the good and bad places to go? 
    
    The bad places are the ones that make you stand up and make a fool of 
    yourself.
    
    The good places are the ones that make everyone else stand up and make
    fools of themselves.
    
    Steve

    It doesn't bother me that people like this, but if we're gonna talk about
    it, we might as well cover both sides of the story.
    
    I don't like karaoke any more than I like going to bars to see bands
    with highly untalented singers.  To me, it's the same.  A lot of the
    attraction seems to be a) to get up there and make a fool of yourself,
    and b) to laugh "at" (or perhaps "with") people making fools of
    themselves.
    
    One particularly disturbing observation is that occasionally when
    someone gets up there and sings well, it's not appreciated.  The people
    who are really bad are, I guess, far more entertaining.
    
    There's another aspect of it that I don't like: it's yet another
    technological innovation that is tearing down the live music industry.
    That is, like DJs, because it's cheaper than hiring a band, many clubs
    that would have live entertainment get Karaoke instead.
    
    Now, don't get me wrong.  I'm a true capitalist, and thus I accept
    this.   And I'll also confess that I am not an unbiased observer: I
    play in a bar band. 
    
    Fortunately, I can moan about the slow but steady death of live music
    in clubs and still remain a capitalist.  ;-)
    
    	db
    
    p.s. I've been playing in a DEC volleyball league in Hudson, MA for
         a couple of years now.  After the games, we'd all head over to
         the Horseshoe pub for beers, eats and what not.
    
         One night last year, we came to the 'Shoe and discovered that
         they started doing Karaoke.   We could no longer hold
         conversations and spent the whole time sitting, watching each
    	 other while some drunken fool was up there caterwalling.
    
    We put up with that for about 3 weeks and then  told the ownership of
    the Shoe that the 40 odd thirsty, hungry, beer-guzzling folks
    who reliably showed up every Wednesday evening were taking our
    business elsewhere.
    
    My understanding was that they later called us and begged us to come
    back but we told them "not until you dump the karaoke".  Apparently
    our league generated a lot more business than the karaoke.

    .3�    attraction seems to be a) to get up there and make a fool of yourself,
    .3�    and b) to laugh "at" (or perhaps "with") people making fools of
    .3�    themselves.

    	Not true on every case. I was in Fla(St.Pete)where Karaoke is big
    in town. They were numerous people with great talent getting up and
    there purely entertaining the audience. It was clear to me that these
    folks had been doing this for sometime, and they were excellent!
    	
    	Sure, there were a few "Odd" ones, but the DJ made the crowd give
    them a big round of applause to make them feel not so stupid!

    	In my opinion, it's really up to the master of ceremony's(tm) to
    which style of players you get. If you want the gonads, then boo
    everyone. If you want talent, give'em a hand.

    It's still fun..I think.

    B.A.

    Hey Ya,
    
    	Did anyone see Doogie Howser this last weekend??  He took that one
    nurse to Karoke bar.  What I saw from the show was a few drunk singers
    that couldn't carry a tune with a forklift.  Now, when Doogie's date
    went up, she could sing like, perfect!!!  NOT!!!!!!
    
    `There is one bar that I know that has Karoke on Sunday nights.  The
    Back Bay Bicycle club.  It is normally a Sports bar.  I haven't been
    but my  mom loves this stuff so we might go one of these nights.
    
    Virginia

	So, why don't you turn this into an opporitunity? I carry a book
	(Loose Leaf binder) with the words to practically all of our
	songs & let members of the audience come up and sing with us.
	It serves the same function, and the people singing are still
	stars to thier friends. The places that people want to do this
	at invite us back & I earn money instead of them renting a
	Karoke machine.

	Last weekend I picked up a 20 dollar tip for letting 6 people
	sing 'I Got Friends in Low Places' along with my sequencer.
	Sure, you have to carry a spare microphone and cue people when
	to expect things, but, that's not too tough to do.

	If you can't do this sort of thing now, I'd try to figure out
	how (If your live band market is being taken away by Karoke
	machines, you'd best start thinking on how to compete with 
	them).

							Jens

    Sorry Jens, but I wouldn't be playing in bars if it weren't fun.
    
    Being a backup band for an endless line of tone-deafs is not my idea of
    fun.
    
    Occasionally we do have people join us (we did this past weekend);
    sometimes they're good, sometimes they're awful (like this past weekend).
    As a "change of pace" once, maybe twice a night its OK.  But I don't
    want to become a Karaoke band.
    
    What I've found is that you have to be careful with these kinds of
    things.  You play one request, and all of a sudden everybody thinks
    you're a juke box.  It never fails that when we say "This is a
    request", we get flooded with people coming up making requests
    (last week it was "Seasons in the Sun"!!!!), often talking to me
    WHILE I'm playing.
    
    The same thing happens when you bring someone up, all of a sudden a
    line starts to form and you're a "Karaoke band".

I must admit that I never thought of Karaoke as competing with live
bands..........I guess I assumed they were competing with DJs.

My experience with Karaoke has been that most (80%-90%) of the
people who sing are fairly talented, but obviously not at the
professional level.  I've only heard a few people who really
butchered songs.  And then, as someone mentioned, a good KJ
(Karaoke Jockey) will assist by either singing along and/or
encouraging the audience to applaud.

Karaoke appeals to my ego; one thing I really like about it is having 
complete strangers compliment me after I sing, especially if I've
heard them sing and they are good.

Who knows, maybe a talent scout will discover me!   NOT!!


Frank

    The last time this wonderful subject came up, I said my piece which was
    roughly what Dave said, only less delicate.
    
    I've been a performing musician for many many years. In my early teens,
    I was playing clubs in a jazz quartet with my father. In my later
    teens/20s, I was in a cover/originals band that was very well known. In
    fact, that band was a full-time job that payed me *more* money than my
    first job as a software engineer!!! Then came disco...
    
    I loathed disco in ways that I cannot even begin to describe. I hated
    it because it was musically vacuous. I hated it because some of the
    clubs my band played, in fact *ruled*, were now opting for less nights
    of us, more nights of DJ. I also hated it because of the audience and,
    shall we say, their motivations.
    
    So, I tried my hand at being a "purist" and went the full originals
    route. Being in an originals band is basically like signing up for a
    degree program in "How To Be Screwed".
    
    So to you karoke types, I want you to know I salute you! Why?
    
    Because you completely inexperienced, untrained, unprofessional,
    unpolished, un-uned wannabees, can *pay* to be exploited by club owners
    and DJs while you dream of what you have *not a prayer* of ever making
    happen (in fact, you'd be lucky to get a job with a wedding band)...
    and all it cost you was a few bucks.
    
    Look what it cost me to learn to same lesson.
    
    Brian

    .9�    So to you karoke types, I want you to know I salute you! Why?
    .9�    Because you completely inexperienced, untrained, unprofessional,
    .9�    unpolished, un-uned wannabees, can *pay* to be exploited by club owners
    
    Pay? Who pays? We don't pay down here! It's free! Pay? No way! It's
    just a way for club owners to get you into their joints.
    
    	B.A.

    >> Pay? Who pays? We don't pay down here! It's free! Pay? No way! It's
    >> just a way for club owners to get you into their joints

    From what I understand, and mind you I avoid places that have karaoke
    like I avoid unprotected sex with drug abusing strangers, it is
    customary to tip the ever-so-talented DJ after he/she lets you perform
    vocal self-abuse. Payment 1. Cover charge? Payment 2. $ 5.00 Mai Tais
    with $ .05 ingredients (not including the culturally sophisticated
    cocktail umbrellas). Payment 3.
    
    Brian

    
    	Payment 1- Don't tip
    	Payment 2- No cover
        Payment 3- Drink beer less expensive :*)
    
    	Needless to say if differs from every joint.  Of course you buy
    drink anyways, that's why we go there? To have a drink and socialize!
    
    B.A.

    RE: .B.A.
    
    You're heading down a different road than what I was getting at.
    Consider the club owner. In the "good old days", the clubs would hire a
    band and some even payed a decent wage. In fact, as a union musician,
    my wage was *guaranteed* to be a minimum amount. Well, the union got
    strong-armed by the club owners, many of whom (this should not shock
    you) are affiliated with certain criminal organizations where
    strong-arming is a specialty, and eventually the union ran away into a
    meek little corner and essentially charged dues for an insignificant
    amount of life insurance and a worthless newsletter.
    
    So, now clubs could exploit star-gazed kids into playing for "the
    door". Of course, the club never did anything to make sure you got any
    door. You had to be grateful to play for next to nothing. You had to
    even promote yourself, basicly hitting on your friends to show up at
    your gigs so you could get the honor of hitting on them again on a
    "better night".
    
    Then the clubs discovered DJs, but many people balked at the concept of
    a DJ as being an intangible form of entertainment. So, DJs were limited
    to the "disco" type clubs. Thank God. But wait! There's more! Along
    comes karaoke and now you can pay a DJ less than a band, you don't have
    to worry about how many friends the band members have, and not only
    that, but people will actually *pay* to entertain themselves. It's a
    P.T. Barnum dream.
    
    Brian

    .13�    You're heading down a different road than what I was getting at.
    
    	You're right...
    
    	But do think that some of these folks use this as test for
    themselves to see it they "have what it takes" to get going with a
    career?  That deal in Fla was some great talent. They could out sing
    several of "recording artsist" of today.   Maybe there hoping for a
    break by some big shot having a drink to notice them.  But it's only a
    P.T. Barnum Dream!  :*)
    
    B.A.

    RE: B.A.
    
    Well, if people are singing in karaoke joints because they expect
    something to happen to their "careers", they're seriously deluding
    themselves.
    
    There's the music biz and then there's the singing biz as a subset of
    the music biz. To make it in the singing biz you have to be exceptional
    in many ways. Being a good singer is not all there is to it.
    
    For one thing, you have to have looks. For instance, if the bovine
    troika of Wilson Phillips were not Wilsons and Phillips, do you think
    they'd have a prayer in the music biz? Not! They can't even sing, but
    they "made it" because they had the "in" that your average lounge lizard
    (who probably sings better) does not.
    
    Most well-known singers also do other things - write, play, etc. Very
    few are just vocalists. Those that are still need to be exceptional in
    ways that exceed their vocal abilities, e.g., can they make teenagers
    of the opposite sex horny (or more horny than they normally are)...
    that's what this whole stinking business comes down to it seems.
    
    Of course, if they're *really* ugly and can't sing for beans they can
    always get a job with a country band! :-)
    
    Brian

    .15�    Well, if people are singing in karaoke joints because they expect
    .15�    something to happen to their "careers", they're seriously deluding
    .15�    themselves.
    
    	True, but they may not be able to afford the instruments and band
    members to do a good gig...so they "Use" karako to their advantage. I
    think!
    
    	Not saying it would happen, but the record labels could do better
    if they did listen to *some* these people doing Karaoke.
    
    	At least what I heard, and I'm by no means an expert!
    
    B.A.

    > I must admit that I never thought of Karaoke as competing with live
    > bands..........I guess I assumed they were competing with DJs.
    
    Karaokes, DJ's and bands all offer the same general thing: club
    entertainment.
    
    Karaokes and DJ's are generally MUCH cheaper then bar bands.  They
    don't require as many people, as much equipment, as much
    rehearsal/talent, etc. etc.
    
    Basically, bar bands can't compete economically with DJs and Karaoke
    and thus are losing the battle. 

    
    	Geez, it's gotta be the full moon!!  I have no idea why folks
    	who go to see and sing at Karaoke nights are suckers.  And 
    	anyone who thinks their taste in music is better than the
    	next guy just because they're a musician is just plain silly.
    
    	I hope he doesn't mind me using him as an example but Howard
    	Ray and his band just might be everything Brian hates about
    	music and looks down on.  You'd have to be bonkers to think
    	that Howard is anything but a fabulous musician and his band
    	is top shelf!  And I have to feel that he really loves that
    	type of music.  So do I, btw, and I know how very hard it is
    	to play.
    
    	Karaoke makes alot of people smile and feel good.  Obviously
    	the "common folk" haven't been getting much of that from live
    	bands lately.  That wonderful high that we musicians get after
    	good night is contagious.  Like it or not, they've got the bug.
    
    	Tom
    

    Tom,
    
    Who's Howard Ray? I don't look down on him, whoever he is. If he's a
    country type, that was just my usual crotchety noting style, not to be
    taken seriously.
    
    And... I said nothing about people's musical tastes... nor do I really
    want to stop anyone from having a good time. I can only tell you that
    on my list of good times, karaoke is conspicuously absent.
    
    That has nothing to do with my general resentment of the direction of
    the music biz and the fact that a decent musician can't make a decent
    living anymore.
    
    Not to worry though Tom, I won't be around much longer to offend you.
    
    P.S. My watch says it's one day past a full moon...
    
    Brian

    Karaoke...
    Beach Clubs...
    Disco Dancing...
    Video Arcades...
    
    
    I see these things as fads, more or less, that do eventually depart.
    For no real reason, I just feel that karaoke will fade away
    and disappear.
    
    Of course, not any time soon!  But certainly, a big part of its appeal
    right now is its very *novelty* and eventually that will wear away.
    
    The music market is tough for musicians these days.  However, I believe
    that people will fall for performers who manage to capture something
    in a way that the layperson never could...and we admire the performers
    for that.  We admire their talent.
    
    I don't know how this will affect bar bands...but I do think things
    are cyclical and bands will come back again.
    
    JMHO,
    
    Brian

    
    	db, I really don't think that clubs now have Karaoke only
    	because it's cheaper.  And, it's really unfair to put it in
    	with DJ's (because it's prerecorded music?).  For example,
    	the Marlboro Holiday gives a room, dinner, and breakfast for
    	two AND a 6 month membership to their health club for the
    	winner each friday night.  Not bad!
    
    	Also, DJ's aren't drawing anyone to clubs.  People react totally
    	different to Karaoke.  Kinda like watching pro golfers at a
    	tournament - everyone says "wish I could do that..."
    
    	Tom
    

    
    
    	I've seen quite a few talented people singing at Karaoke, some,
    	much more talented than some singers in bands. Karaoke offers
    	a wide variety of music, unlike bands which generally encompases
    	one particular style.  As far as wannabee's, everone loves the
    	attention and granted some Karaoke singers "Wannabe" a professional,
    	but I don't see these bar bands cutting records on a regular basis.	
    	They "Wannabe" well known, popular and famous too.  Everyone is
    	a "Wannabe" to a certain extent.
    
    	I love live bands and nothing can ever replace the excitement of
    	live performers.  I also like Karaoke, and .18 was perfectly on
    	target. People are having fun, and feeling pretty good.  And there
    	is definately some talent out there.
    
    	And it is, just plain silly, to think, anyone's opinion whether it
        is a "Profession Musician's" or mine, carries any more weight
    	than another's. I guess the old saying about opinions applies here.
    
    	Isn't there another note in here to bash Karaoke anyway?  ( This
    	subject seems to be as heated as the Guns 'N Roses note!!!!!!!!)
    
    	This note was intended for Karaoke participants and observers to share
    	their favorite places/experiences for Karaoke.(I Think??)
    
    	In the Worcester area, I've been to J.J. O'Rourkes.  Party Time
    	Productions does a very good job of hosting it.  They have a
    	lot of songs and it is done very professionally.  There are these
    	two guys there once in a while who do Creedon's real well. There
    	is one girl who's name is Janine who has a Stevie Nicks kind of
    	voice and is very talented. I like when a decent couple do "Love
    	Shack" or that song from Grease, ???"Summer Love"???
    
    	I went to the Royal Manderine and the host there thought he was
    	god.  Talk about a "Wannabe"!!!!!!  I think he had visions of 
    	being a cross between Bobby Brown and Steve Tyler!!  He would
    	really hog the show.  Every few songs he did one, pretty well but
    	there was better talent there.  Two guys did Bon Jovi, "Dead or
    	Alive"  They did GREAT job.
    
    	I went to the 99 in Hudson one Thursday night and the guy hosting
    	it passed out the song list.  It consisted of three sheets with
    	"Side A" and Side B" listed three times!!  The sound system could
    	have been surpassed by a "Mr. Microphone" and an AM radio.
    
    	Conte Sound hosts it throughout Central Mass..  They have a great
    	sound system usually, with a little reverb.  The hosts vary in
    	professionalism.
    
    	Well, this is of course, only my "Opinion".
    
    	Enjoy.
                                                        

        >>  And it is, just plain silly, to think, anyone's opinion whether
        >> i is a "Profession Musician's" or mine, carries any more weight
        >> than another's. I guess the old saying about opinions applies
    	>> here.
    
    My opinion is different than yours, but we're both entitled to them.
    Why does the fact that I think karaoke's a joke map to me thinking my
    opinion carries more weight? Next time you infer that I'm silly, I'll
    remind you how silly I think your vain little hobby is. However, I'm not
    trying to convince you karaoke sucks, nor will you have even the slightest
    snowball's chance in hell of convincing me it doesn't.
    
    Brian

    
    
    	Any your a moderator?
    
    	Your reply says enough.....
    
    	

    Yes, I am. And if you think you can do a better job, by all means
    *please* send me a TK50 and this whole mess is *yours*. Then you can
    exercise whatever opinion control you feel is necessary.
    
    Brian

    
    	For the most part, a moderator is just another noter, with opinions
    	that [s]he likes to voice every so often.
    
    	I didn't think Brian's reply was that bad ... he told the truth,
    	which happened to hurt, apparently.  But it was his opinion.  He
    	didn't say that Karaoke performers, as people, sucked ... he said
    	that Karaoke as a form of entertainment sucked.
    
    							GTI

    Tom thanks for compliment, and your right I do enjoy playing the style
    of music that we're playing, and I do realize that its not popular
    amongst most musicians, but things like that don't bother me.  As for
    Karaoke, its entertaining when done correctly and I've also heard some
    excellent vocalist.  I can understand why some musicians would get
    upset just what we need another "cheaper form" of entertainment.
    First there were the DJ's then Lip-Synching, then the Midi-bands
    and now Karaoke.  Well guess what the next craze will be "tracks"
    I'm seeing more and more clubs opening up to this idea.  A singing
    group or individual pre-record the music only onto a cassette and the
    club is usually set up with a stage monitor system (Mike, floor
    monitors, and sometimes an effects unit).  The DJ plays the tape and
    the singer(s) sing live, the only difference between this and Karaoke
    is the music is always "Original:" and there is usually some
    choregraphy involved.  Most of the acts I've seen are pretty good,
    and most of them are looking to get signed.  The club owner can get
    4 or 5 acts during the course of an evening for the price of 1 good
    band. (makes sense to me)
    I feel that since most bands these days are refusing to give the public 
    entertainment (the days of just standing there and wiggling your
    fingers are over).  Thanks to MTV when they show the bands live, you
    see this massive show (wall of amps, big light show, smoke machines,)
    when you go to the clubs 5 guys standing there singing the same tunes
    with a butt hanging out there mouth is just not the same.  So like
    everything else its all about money.  I personally know bands that are
    playing top-40 music and making $2000.00 a night (5 pieces), and there
    working 4 to 5 nights a week.  The money is out there, but you gotta
    bring a show with ya.  Until we as musicians quit waiting for the 60's
    and 70's to come back (cause their not coming back in that formate) and
    start to realize that times are changing and like everything else its
    all about money, the public is going to continue to come up with
    alternative inexpensive ideas for entertainment.
    
    
    
                       Just my Opinion...........
    
    
                                             Howard

    Ahhhh!!! *that* Howard Ray!!!
    
    (Sorry I didn't recognize the name when Tom mentioned it... my
    associative logic is malfunctioning)
    
    Brian

This is what I like about music; We all have different likes and dislikes.
For me, having someone from the audience come up and sing (no matter what
they sound like) is audience participation, and I enjoy this aspect of it.
I'm part of the entertainment, and as far as I'm concerned, If people arn't
having a good time, then I'm not entertaining anyone. If you don't like Karoke,
that's fine, lots of other people do. If you don't want to play in a mode
where other people randomly join in with the band, thats fine also. I happen
to enjoy this sort of thing, and I play around a lot (and have been doing
this same sort of thing for years). I don't take the music aspect that
seriously, because I like to play out. Each of us is different, and because
of that, we all do different things that we enjoy.  I've played in hangers
(with airplanes all around me), I've played parties where people brought
thier horses in to show everyone (1000+ pounds wandering around my P.A.
system), I've had Wildebeasts (at the Denver Zoo) a few hundred yards away,
and have played in parks, clubs, private parties, ski areas, resorts
and at the state fair. I enjoy audience participation & have had people
come up and sing or play tamborine or dance with the band at almost every
place that I've played at. I feel that this is a valid form of entertainment.
I had a good time doing this also. I feel that my efforts can effectively
compete with Karoke, and that people can enjoy it every bit as much with
a live band as a Karoke machine. I also feel that people who enjoy singing
with a Karoke machine are happy when that can be the center of attention.
Is there anything wrong with that? I hope not.

I'm not that serious of a musician. I doubt that Karoke is just a phase;
I suspect that it's a trend that allows anybody to be a star for a few
minutes (Like Andy Warhol suggested - thier 15 minutes of stardom). So, for
those of you who feel that this will suddenly dissappear, don't hold your
breath. I'd say you may eventually have to adapt to what the Audience
and the club owner considers entertainment.

						Jens

    I think karaoke may be around for awhile, like it or not.
    
    Before the invention of the phonograph and the radio, music was ALL
    live, and you either were in the audience or you were a participant.
    What we call "folk music" nowadays was nothing but ordinary people
    making music (as opposed to folks getting together to jam on some
    Beethoven quartets).
    
    But once recorded or broadcast music was possible, it was no longer
    necessary for folks to sing and play on their own.  Notice how kids
    love to sing songs and bang on instruments?  So why do so few people
    today carry through on this love of music and learn to play an
    instrument or take singing lessons?  I dunno, blame whoever or whatever
    you like.  
    
    However, karaoke answers that need to make music...people can get up
    and "be the star".  Sure, that seems hokey but after all, nowadays
    we're so used to seeing music being "performed" that it probably seems
    natural to most folks.  All the reverb and crap that gets poured on the
    vocals makes almost anybody sound better...look at what it's done for
    Madonna!
    
    If it's something that people have fun doing, they'll keep doing it.
    Besides, these days I'm not about to discount people's desire to do
    *anything* (witness the bungee jumping craze)!!!
    
    						Brian

    
    
    I think people who dont lead x-citing lives are highly interested
    on this type of thing.. 
    
    SO SUe ME OK??????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    but I think its, like... everyone who hasnt been in a band I think
    privately wishes they were in a band at one point in thier lives,
    Some of us can never get away from it :*)  
    
    Like Allan Starr and myself were talking last night, Once you get up 
    on stage people are attracted more so to you, I have never figured out
    this type of phemonia (sp?) but its true.. When I was singing 
    I had ten guys right there trying to talk to me, and luckly my
    boyfriend at the time was my guitarist, that chilled them out! :*)
    	but I think its getting up there in the limelight (so to speak)
    that appeals to people. But anyways I think it gives people that
    chance to play "rock star " for a couple of minutes.
    
    i'm rambling so i'M  LIKE  outta here!
    			
    			wendy o'
    
    

    Well, If people have a great time and come back and it generates
    revenue for the bar owner, thats it. It is a threat to working
    musicians, but personal artistic/musical expression doesn't mean anything
    if people aren't interested -- except to the musician. 
    Being a musician, I love live bands, but business is business. 
    
    However, If they have cat karaoke, I'll pay! But then again, who
    wouldn't?

I dunno,  some folks are just wet noodles.  I've never seen anyone 
do karaoke or been in a bar when it was going on but shoot, whatever
happened to letting people have fun the way they want to have fun
without telling them just what you think about the way they have fun
(and for that matter a 2nd round of this stuff cause it's a retread
discussion...so predictable).

Just remember esteemed musicians,  when tuesday nights karaoke is
over they just might plop down 10 bucks to hear you play on saturday.

bob

ps.  I only entered this because more often then not, a person who is
enthused about something opens a note and write about it only to be
sh*t upon by the faithful noters of music who just have to tell you
about the flip side you didn't really want to hear about.

    I played in a club (back in jolly ol' new england) where they did
    Karaoke between our sets. I loved it !!! It gave us a chance to take
    really "LONG" breaks without the owner going balistic. It also gave
    the folks in the audience the chance to get up on stage and pretend to 
    be singers (just as many lead vocalists in working bands pretend to 
    be singers ;^). I'm no great fan of Karaoke, but what the hell, if
    other people enjoy it, then all the power to them. I believe it to 
    be arrogant and narrow-minded to trash someone else's idea of 
    entertainment just because it doesn't agree with your own.
    
    /Billy K
    

    And just as predictable as this topic coming up again are the
    emmergence of the typical noting sticks in the mud who are equally as
    boring when they try to squash any dissenting viewpoint.
    
    I'll be out of DEC soon... most of it, I will miss very much. What I
    won't miss is the mind-set that you can't speak out for or against
    something without getting the verbal hairy eye-brow from those who feel
    that the two greatest possible sins are 1. to be different, and 2. to
    be *vocally* different.
    
    Anyone who thinks that socialism died with the Soviet Union should take
    a long look at DEC.
    
    In a nutshell, tough.
    
    Brian

No no Brian,  you can be how you want to be....

What I was saying more than anything (and that you didn't see) was
that that note was started enthusiastically about karaoke.  You can take yer 
complaints (the whole lot of them) to the other notes in here for bitching like 
"I just don't get it..." which is the more appropriate place, wouldn't you 
say?  

Speak out by all means (and no one in here will ever accuse you in particular
of not having many opinions or not speaking out).  My point wasn't to try to 
keep anyone from hearing what you had to say.

>    something without getting the verbal hairy eye-brow from those who feel

the pot and the kettle are both black sir.  

bob 

    Bob,
    
    I have a different viewpoint from you as to where discussion of a topic
    belongs. Slagging notes are fine, but they could potentially lead
    to twice as many topics in this conference. As moderator, I know how it
    is (apparently) difficult for some people even to deal with the concept
    of there being a single "for sale" note. A slag note for everything is
    too much. As for putting it all in "I don't get it...", well, that in
    itself is innapropriate because there's two many threads of what people
    "don't get" going on at the same time.
    
    My opinion is that the notes conference is for open discussion. While
    others may choose to coddle people on the basis that they're some sort of
    poor protectionless invalids, I don't. While the opinions I express, as
    I have stated many times, are not intended to offend, as Popeye would
    say, "I ams what I ams".
    
    It was absolutely clear to me that the originator of this note enjoyed
    karaoke and did not, as you put it, "want to hear it" from other people
    who did not. I've thought about this and concluded that I would not
    have stopped anyone else from speaking out against karaoke. Apparently,
    people want me to censore *myself* in ways that I would not censore
    other people. Sorry, wrong moderator. This particular moderator
    doesn't mind when folks get a little testy. At least it keeps it
    interesting. The only time I put on my mod hat is when it's an issue of
    potential liability. Other than that, I have a very "let the boys (or
    girls) fight" attitude. As musicians go, I tend more toward the Ted
    Nugent personality type than the John Denver type. My idea of a good
    drinking place is one where the glasses are filmy, the floor looks like
    it's been pee'ed on a few times and the wimmins are a bit skanky. My
    approach to life is like my approach to bars and music. A bit of
    rowdiness and a good fist fight for no apparent reason are all part of
    my Ernest Hemmingway with a Steinberger mystique.
    
    I am not attacking people who choose to participate in karaoke. To
    assume otherwise would be to assume that I spend my time worrying about
    what other people do. In fact, I spend *none* of my time worrying about
    what other people do, until they do it to me. Thankfully, any place
    that has karaoke also has a sign that says so. So, if I really feel a
    crushing need to go to a bar, I can avoid the ones that will make me
    sick. No problem. The other people that go there can knock themselves
    out. But somehow, I'm raining on people's parades, no worse, I'm
    SHITTING on them, because I state plainly what I think of that
    particular form of entertainment.
    
    Sheesh. Well, all I can say is it's a good thing no one's mentioned
    politics or religion... 
    
    Brian

Brian,  I have to agree with you even though I can only imagine how it
might be otherwise.... 

What I think happens in notes quite often is that a person writes a note
to discuss something in a positive manner and the negative replies outway
what was initially to be discussed and the discussion goes off in a totally
different direction (of course here I am going down that path).  I also
think that some people who are read_only may be inhibited to write notes 
because of this.  

But again,  if notes are for discussions (and they are) then there should be
both sides...

Thanks,
bob 
ps. sorry to side track the discussion

>    Anyone who thinks that socialism died with the Soviet Union should take
>    a long look at DEC.
>    
>    In a nutshell, tough.
    
    truer words never spoken.
    Jay

    > What I think happens in notes quite often is that a person writes a
    > note to discuss something in a positive manner and the negative replies
    > outway what was initially to be discussed and the discussion goes off
    > in a totally different direction
    
    Bob,
    
    I just want to go on record as stating that I think your analysis
    is very astute and when I was MUSIC moderator I instituted a rule
    that basically declared a right for fans of a particular artist
    to have a note devoted to the appreciation of that artist, not to
    debate the artists merit.
    
    I disagree STRONGLY with Brian's statement about "slag notes".
    
    IMHO "Why I hate Michael Jackson" is an entirely different topic than
    what otherwises appears in "Michael Jackson" which is people sharing
    their appreciation.
    
    Thus an anti-MJ bomb in the middle of that note is, in my opinion,
    a clear cut disruption of the topic.
    
    I agree that a slag note for every topic would be too much.  But I
    don't think there's a need for one for EVERY topic either.  Bob
    came in here to discuss one thing - Brian clearly has a different
    agenda.  IMHO that's reason enough for two notes.
    
    BTW, I am not faulting Brian for stating his views in this note.  My
    feeling is that we only need to create slag notes when other topics
    are disrupted by "slaggers".

    
    	I feel that .9 is way out of bounds.  The un-this and un-that
    	was un-neccessary and un-true.  I've been playing music for
    	30 years and hopefully don't fit your description.
    
    	Btw, I won 4 free breakfast buffets friday night for singing
    	one song.  er, db, it was Billie Jean.  Am I in the right
    	note?  ;^)
    
    	Tom
    
    	ps - and piss on the floor doesn't do much for me either.
    

    
    
    	re. TOM
    
    
    SO 	WHATZ 	your 	point?
    					;')
    			
    		wendy o'
    
    			

    Tom,
    
    It's been the same old story with you since I've been noting here. I
    tweak people's nose because I enjoy it and I really do mean it in fun
    and you get all hot and bothered. Tom, I mean, like I'm serious about
    liking places with piss on the floor... or anything else I've said. Why,
    if you can't take a little good natured poking, don't you just ignore
    whatever I write from now until my demise here... I think you'll feel a
    lot better if you do. And frankly, I tired a longtime ago of explaining
    myself to you. I'll say the one serious thing I've said in a longtime...
    I don't care if you like me or not. That battle is obviously lost and
    I'm still alive and (as far as I can tell) unharmed. So I'm just *not*
    gonna worry about it. Sorry...
    
    Dave and I, and I'm sure a few other people too, have a different view
    of "moderation style". My view is that a conference with too many
    topics is a nightmare to maintain and use. I would offer to reconsider my
    stance, but frankly, I won't be around long enough to make a difference
    anyway. Whatever the noters work out with the next moderator is fine
    with me.
    
    I'm not a "typical" person... in this notes file or in this company.
    People that are agressive, confrontational and what I might term
    "lusty" (I do *not* mean that in the sexual sense) are square pegs in
    DEC's round hole. All I can repeat is what I've said many times... I
    really don't mean to offend people. What you see is a manefestation of
    my style, and of the fact that I just *love* to see people melt down
    and go ballistic. Fortunately, this conference is loaded with victims
    who are ready to get seriously whipped up into a frenzy at the
    slightest provocation. And better yet, they'll do it over subjects like
    Karaoke.
    
    Really, this ain't the Post Office folks! Lighten up! I know things
    have been kinda gloomy in and around our great old employer, but that
    doesn't mean we all have to lose our humor. Next time I or someone else
    writes a note that offends you, I suggest that you go back and read the
    note again, but this time, pretend it was written by Dave Barry (or
    choose your favorite humorist). My point is, an explicit smiley face
    should not be your only clue that people are funning with ya.
    
    Brian

    Brian,
    
    FWIW, since you support people saying what they think:
    
    To me, your note comes across as blaming everyone else for not agreeing
    with you on what's fun [as well as what's good music, etc.]
    
    	db

    Fair's fair and it isn't fair to turn this note, however much fun it
    might be for me, into a discussion/debate/derision of my noting style,
    my personality or my opinions. Several of you have been trying to
    modify all of these for several years now, and look at how much
    progress you've made... :-)
    
    So, how about we stick to the subject at hand? I'll "bow out" here
    (I've said my piece) unless someone wants to debate the *substance* of
    what I've been saying (which is, to put it as succintly as I possibly
    can, that karaoke is a pretty desparate form of entertainment).
    
    I won't promise you that if you do suck me back into the "debate" that
    I will be nice to you. I don't "expect" people to be nice to me. How
    they choose to act toward me is their's, and their's alone, to define.
    I just thought it fair to warn everyone. However, I also want to say that
    I am not "mad" at anyone. Far from it, I really *do* enjoy a bit of
    verbal sparring.
    
    That said, in the spirit of not disrupting this discussion any further,
    I will not reply here unless a note is specifically addressed to me.
    I'm not doing this to "pick up my ball and go home" as it were, my
    motivation really is to not detract further from the discussion.
    
    Brian

    So where are some good karaoke places in the Boston/Cambridge/
    Somerville area?  My first karaoke experience at SIGGRAPH last year was
    pretty incredible so I wouldn't mind trying it again.  I sing in
    several classical and theatrical groups but haven't had the chance to
    sing with rock bands.  Karaoke can give a hint of that experience
    without over-committing myself to yet another musical group.

    As far as "good" karaoke places in the Cambridge/Somerville area, I
    can't say. I am going to assume that what makes a good place is the
    selection of songs, the sound system, the quality of the mikes, and the
    possibility of winning something you can actually boast about.
      In a few weeks, a nightclub in Marlboro called Doo Wops will be
    hosting an 8 or 10 week long competition for best singers. There is
    supposed to be a substantial cash prize for the winner and weekly
    prizes along the way for the finalists. 
       Their Karaoke selection is pretty good, not the best, and the sound
    system is very good as well as their mikes. There are not too many
    places these days that offer decent prizes for competitions so for
    those who might want to consider this an opportunity for fun and
    reward, keep your ears open for more info in local papers. I will post
    any info I find here as well.
    
    Mr Ed

    This weekend there was an outdoor wedding in my neighborhood that
    featured Karaoke as part of the entertainment.  I've never ventured
    into a Karaoke club before, so this was my first exposure to the
    real thing (plus, there was no escaping it :-).  What was clearly
    evident to me, even from a distance, was how much fun the people
    were having.  This seems like a natural for weddings, where everyone
    knows each other already.  Lots of cheering, and laughing, and egging
    on.  Through an open window, I was treated to a truly awful performance
    "Flashdance: What a Feeling" and you know what?  I survived!  Sounded
    like they were having a great time.
    
    From what I could tell, they had a DJ and he included Karaoke as part
    of the package.  I would expect this to become a big fad (if it isn't
    already) and de rigueur for weddings in the near future.
    
    /rick

    At one of the clubs where my band plays, the owner has karaoke on
    Thursday nights.  She said it's a huge money maker, but she can't take
    it for more than a few hours at a time: the talent (using the word in
    its loosest incarnation) is just too lame.
    
    She said they seem to have a ton of fun and they do get thirsty while 
    cheering and clapping.
    
    Arrrgh.

    Does anyone know about discs/tapes for classical music
    karaoke?
    
    I'm currently taking voice lessons, and this would seem
    to be an ideal way of rehearsing at home.
    

    
    	(800) 752-SING - they'll send you a catalog.
    
    	Tom
    

    
    	Has anyone in here ever heard of the "Super K" cassette format
    	for Karaoke?  I was looking at a dual cassette Karaoke machine
    	in Lechmere just before Christmas.  It was on sale for $179.
    	I was considering buying it just to have fun with.  I was turned
    	off by the fact that Lechmere only had five of the Super K format
    	tapes that this machine uses.  And the salesperson said that I
    	wouldn't be able to get them at a Strawberries Music store or the
    	like.  He said I'd have to go to a regular music store.  Between
    	that statement and the fact that three out of Lechmere's five
    	tapes were the same, I decided to pass.  I'm still interested
    	in this machine.  But only if there is a decent selection and
    	supply of these Super K tapes available.  They must be fairly
    	new.  The difference between these and regular Karaoke cassettes
    	is that the Super K allows the lyrics to be shown on your T.V..
    
    	If anyone knows of a store that carries the Super K tapes, please
    	post its name here.  Lechmere didn't even have a catalog for
    	The Super K tapes.  Nor was there one, or even an address for one,
    	packed inside the box with the machine.
    
    	I'd appreciate any information you can provide on this.  I live
    	in Southern New Hampshire so I'm looking for a supplier within
    	a 50 mile radius or so.  If I could get them through mail order,
    	I'd probably seriously reconsider this purchase.  Thanks, in
    	advance, for your help.
    
    							Paul
    

    
    
    	Call the number in .51, they will send you a huge packet of info
    	on all types of Karaoke machines and tapes/discs.
    
    	/ab

    
    I called the number.  I got a recorded message that stated their
    business hours.  According to the recording they should be open
    today from 9:00 to 5:00.  I'm trying to figure out why the recording
    said something about calling back during normal working hours.  I
    thought I did.  Even if this place is on the west coast it is still
    after 9:00 there.  Any idea where this place is located?  Maybe
    they're shut down for the holidays?
    
    							Paul
    

    
    
    I don't remember off hand where they are located.  I called also,
    and the sent me a large packet with different types of units and
    a long list of accessories.  Maybe they are shut down for the week?
    
    Actom Music also has a lot of that equipment?
    
    /ab