Conference mr1pst::music

    Here's one idea.  Check out a book called "Ways of the Hand"
    by David Sudnow.  It describes, in excruciating detail, the author's
    journey in learning to play improvised jazz piano, from scratch.
    I say "excruciating detail" because he delves so deeply into analyzing
    his own thought processes.  It can be a tough read, but there are
    rewards; he does come up with a lot of insights, particularly in the
    area of the nature of musical improvisation.  I don't know of this
    will actually help you out of your dead end, but it's worth a look.
    The book wasn't hard to find several years ago in paperback; don't
    know if it's still in print.
    
    /rick

Yo Nancy- you came to the right place! For commiseration, anyway- and maybe some
suggestions.

My piano background is pretty similar. Funny thing is, I didn't end up with the
same problem on *other* instruments I picked up along the way (guitar, recorder,
for example). The problem seems to be one of association/habit on the instrument,
at least to me.

I can't offer any real proven solutions, as I'm still *far* from a totally
freewheeling master of improv. One thing I think helped me a lot was playing
guitar, as it is based solidly on chord patterns. Another which is helping me
at the moment is playing for contradances: the music (*if* any) is either just a
melody line, to which you have to put chords, or at most the melody plus chords
(as found in a fake book). Lots of playing without a complete arrangement in front
of me seems to be gradually eliminating "fear of notelessness," getting me used
to associating chord patterns with the ol' ivories, and helping me get comfy
with what choices sound good when playing from chords.

O' course, contradance music is pretty straight-ahead stuff- I can't say I'm
really there yet. I'm working (*very* slowly) through a series of books by John
Mehegan on jazz. Chord progressions and melodic improvisations are two of the
topics covered.

I once posted a similar note to yours, BTW, in the JAZZ conference, which is
where I found the Mehegan reference. Y'know, I haven't yet met anyone of the
"CPA" type who's completely crossed the "improv barrier." I think you really
have to get used to sounding *bad-* or at least not good- and do it enough to
get better. It's really worse than learning a new instrument, as there's stuff
to unlearn.

Anyhow- "Hi, I'm Bob. I'm a NOTE-aholic..."

Good luck-

	Bob

    Classical Pianists Anonymous -- I love it! 
    
    Even better than Terrified Classically Trained Pianists, which was the
    support group I was thinking of creating. We could get together and
    relive our haunting memories of being told "Now, pretend there's an
    *orange* under your hand as you play -- curve your fingers -- CURVED
    fingers, PLEASE!!!"
    
    Also, "Cut your fingernails, dear, please; I can't STAND to hear them
    clicking on the keys!"
    
    And doubtless many other exhortations, injunctions, etc., etc!
    
    --Nancy

    
    well i play keys by ear anyway so i can't help there, but i play
    bass (acoustic & electric), tuba, a couple of reeds and very recently
    cello, and i just make a habit to noodle anything i hear.
    
    I'm a bad boy at rehearsal, always being reprimanded, but i habitually
    play snatches of melody that the first violins play on bass or cello.
    Even when i hear something new (or old) on radio or CD - if i never
    tried to play it before, i walk right over to the piano and do it.
    After 30 years i can usually find the right key right away, and then
    just wing it. It has never been a real concious exersise, just a habit,
    but it seems to be a good one.
    
    My wife has the same problem you have - is classically trained on
    piano, but cannot play by ear.  Actually, i think she can, but you have
    to have the patience to experiment and put up with notes. That CAN be
    difficult mentally if you have put a lot of hard, ritual labor into
    playing by score. You just have to break that mind set, and let rip
    whatever comes out.  Think back to when you started reading - it
    wasn't perfect in the beginning then, it won't be now.
    
    bob

	This is close to what a friend and I have been talking alot 
	about lately.  My impression in that you're very similar to
	a high number of pianists as opposed to guitarists.  Most
	pianists take lessons, most guitarists don't (how's that for
	a general statement? ;^)  Guess I should say that all this is
	just my opinion... So, to me..

	Lessons = sheet music = knows song on paper = close the
	book = can't play the song anymore !!

	Play by ear = struggle with song = knows song on the instrument =
	knows how to improvise !!

	Don't get me wrong, I think lessons are a must.  But, you MUST
	put the sheet music away to learn the song on the old ivories.

	I recently went to a party and there was a piano there.  Two people
	played very nicely with the sheet music from the bench - sight reading
	was no problem.  But sit them down with no music and neither could
	play a thing!!  

	Also, classical pianists play interweaving bass lines, chords, and
	the good old melody on the top.  Pop pianists like Elton John and
	Billy Joel SING the melody and they're basically playing bass lines 
	with their left hand and chords with their right.

	Here's a challenge for you - pull out the music to a song you play
	and can sing to.  Don't look at those dots, look at the chords on
	top.  Sing the melody and "drum" the bass notes and chords where
	the left hand is the bass drum and your right is the snare.  I'm
	assuming that you know the notes of the chords, yes?

	Playing by ear, ie; figuring out a song's chords, is something
	that comes with time.  Focusing in on bass notes help with popular
	music in most cases.  But as you learn songs on the piano (as
	opposed to on paper), you'll begin to hear familiar progressions.
	
	Some examples (in different keys) are...

	   	I  VI  IV  V
		C  Am  F   G7

		This is that familiar 50's progression with the background
	 	vocalists singing "oooh, wah-oooh, wop-wah-ooh, waah-ooh".
		All the way to "Every breath you take, every move you make,
		every bond you break, every step you take, I'll be watching
		you" by the Police.

	A variation is

		I  III  IV  V
		C  Em   F   G7

		"I Remember when rock was young, me and Suzy had so much fun,
		 holdin' hands..." etc...  One that doesn't go to the V is
		"I pulled into Nazareth, I was feelin' 'bout half passed dead"

	Another common progression

		II  V
		Am  D

		"It's been a long, time comin' - it's going to be a long,
		 time gone".  Or "Feelin' better, now that we're through,
		 feelin' better cuz I'm over you".  

	The one to four movement happens all the time

		I  IV
		D  G

		"When you're weary, feeling down" by Simon and Garfunkel or
		"We've only just begun..." by the Carpenters.

	A gazillion tunes use the I  IV  V progression.  From Johnny B Good
	to Twist and Shout to Keep Your Hands to Yourself and on and on...

	As far as improvising or "soloing" over changes, I'd guess you're
	in great shape already.  All those melodies you were playing with
	your right hand were once improvisations by the song's writer.

	And most popular music is really just "do a deer, a female deer,
	ra, a drop of golden sun"...

	Tom

    re: knowing the notes to the chords
    
    My sister-in-law is a classically trained pianist (and very good, too,
    in my opinion).  But I doubt she could improvise either.
    
    And no, I don't think she would know the notes to the chords.  That's
    *theory*, not *practice*.
    
    She actually asked me to tell her a thing or two about chords and I'm
    only a self-taught guitarist (and occassional banger of the keys).
    
    tom_p

    Re: 156.5
    
    Thanks for all the examples. No, I DON't know all the notes to the
    chords! Sniff, sniff, blubber, blubber! I think I'll get the books
    mentioned in one of the earlier replies to this note. Geez, I don't
    know nothin'.
    
    I've always heard about chord progressions and how certain ones are
    commonly used in popular music. But I don't know what the roman
    numerals refer to, or the chord names you printed beneath them. So I
    have a lot of learning to do. 
    
    If you know of a good book about chords and chord progressions, I'd love to
    know about it; otherwise, I'm sure a trip to a store like Wordsworth
    would turn up lots of possibilities.

    
    	a minor, quick trip into simple harmony will give the needed
    explanation about scales, chords etc.  A little knowledge goes a
    long way.
    
    	Last week a violinist in our group said she couldn't understand
    how anyone played a passage from memory.  Our fearless leader had
    an interesting explanation.
    
    	When you first start reading (see the dog. the dog goes woof, woof)
    you concentrate on words, and not the thought they convey. Eventually
    we learn to image the thought behind a sentence, we don't really think
    about the act of reading.  The same applies with music.  As we learn
    to read notes, and transpose that to an instrument, it is a very
    concious exersise, very mechanical.  Hopefully, after yo are fluent in
    this exersise, you start becoming more involved in the emotion that the
    music generates, and learn to play off what other people are playing.
    
    	i've just switched instruments, although the score for both is
    often the same.  I have pretty much memorized pieces of the Handels
    Messiah on bass - even those the notes are played differently on cello
    (different strings/positions) I still can recall whole passages and
    play them faithfully on each instrument.   To me, it's more important
    for a musician to feel the music being played than learn technique.
    Technique provides a tool for expression, but without the emotion of
    expression, it is souless and useless.   It is something that needs
    re-enforcement, especially when you work on technique - remember is
    place and function.
    
    	bob

    Thanks, everybody -- I've got a lot of good suggestions to go on now.
    Of course, if anybody wants to add any more, please feel free.
    
    --Nancy

    
    You probably know more than you realize. Can you sight read? If so you
    probably can look at a cluster of notes and play the chord without much
    thought, even if you don't consciously know the chord or its inversion.
    
    	I'll second the nature of the replies here. Knowing chords is the
    first step to improv. Another technique for improv is to block out the
    chords with the left hand then play a melody with the right. This is a
    style that jazz players use a good deal. 
    
    Start simple with a chord arpeggio in the right hand. After (hopefully)
    five minutes this will start to bore you. Switch to playing the scale
    in the right hand as you continue to block out chords in the left.
    	Next try altering the scale by repeating and skipping notes. Make
    up your own scales. Try little runs here and there. As long as you
    stick to the notes in the scale that matched the key you are playing in
    it should all sound pretty good. After a bit you may find that you are
    starting to play little phrases, almost like vocal conversation.
    Congrats! you are now improvising!
    
    	When you become more proficient, start investigating modes.
    
    
    
    						good luck,
    						Mark
    
    

    After a zillion years of classical piano (which I didn't play very
    well) I switched to church organ.  In the meantime, I picked up guitar,
    and learned mostly by ear.  I then learned a few easy licks on
    electronic organ (Hammond), and found I could fake damn near anything on
    it.  Don't know why, but I find organ easiest.  Go figure.  
    
    Anyway, buy some recordings of the piano style you'd like to play,
    starting with easier tunes.  If you can get them on 45, it's a little
    easier to keep going back and repeating a section.  Learn every note of
    the tune, but don't try to transcribe to written music.  Ultimately, 
    memorize the song, which you will now be sick of.  Get another song,
    and repeat.  Most styles of music are collections of cliches; learn the
    cliches, and you'll be able to learn new tunes quicker.  
    
    This is a very painful way to learn improvisation, but it is probably
    the only way.  Guitarists call it ear training.  All the great
    guitarists have spent mega hours doing this.  
    
    And cheer up!  In one or two year's time, you'll be there!
    
    Carl

    I successfully made the transition in my 'teens.  7 years of classical
    piano.  I second those that say
    
    o	toss your sheet music.  think of it as a crutch.
    
    o	find a recording of a favorite piece, NOT classical, that you know
    	well but have never played.  
    
    		- before listening to the recording, do your best to pick
    		  out the melody.  Don't write it down.  ;-)
    
    		- start working with the recording, bring the record player
    		  or tape deck right over to the piano.. use headphones if
    		  you have a family you wish to spare
    
    o	you may think that that's EAR training, not improvising.. true, but
    
    o	My take on playing others' material by EAR is that I have to really
    	UNDERSTAND it before I can play it or remember it.  And it's this
    	understanding that will lead to facile improvisation.
    
    best of luck
    
    karl

    I just got a brochure in the mail for a week-long workshop called 
    "Music for Everyone!" July 12-18 in Keene, NH. The director is
    composer & improvisational cellist David Darling.
    
    "Want to play music with others that is sensitive, profound, and
    TOTALLY IMPROVISED? Bring your violin or voice... harmonica or drum...
    Come and discover how!"...
    
    "Mornings will be spent together in a group class taught by David
    Darling. These sessions offer veteran musicians and improvisers the
    opportunity to expand their expressive abilities in a playful setting.
    Newcomers will find a fresh, inviting, and supportive place to learn
    the basic techniques of music improvisation for self-expression.
    
    "Afternoons will be set aside for playing music in ensembles...
    
    "Evening gatherings... will provide a variety of experiences."
    
    You can call (603)352-4941 for a copy of the brochure. It also refers
    to "the grassroots network Music for People, which provides networking
    and services for people interested in music improvisation &
    self-expression." So they may offer other programs. Darling also does
    short workshops at Spring Hill, Interface, and probably other places.
    
    					Val

 
	The situation I'm in is not too disimilar, although my short-term
	goal is not particularly to develop a play-by-ear talent.  I'm
	the type that does OK with the sheet music in front of me, take
	it away and I'm pretty useless.  Also, I'm real tired of spending
	$5-$15 for songbooks which maybe only have a couple-three songs
	that I really want.  So, I've started collecting fake books.  Now
	the gotcha with fake books is that unless you have some improvisa-
	tion talent, your song renderings are all gonna sound more or less
	like the same old hash.  So, to try and get past this I've just
	now begun working my way through a couple of books, which are:
 
		"How to Play From a Fake Book" by Michael Esterowitz,
			Ekay Music, Inc., ISBN-0-943748-19-4, $ 16.95
			(Barnes & Noble in NYC carries it)
 
		"How to Use a Fake Book" by Ann Collins, Hal Leonard
			puts it out (don't have the ISBN handy, but
			since it's Hal Leonard ANY place that sells
			sheet music should be able to get it for you), $ 8.95
 
	Both presuppose that you already know how to read music and
	aren't an out-and-out beginner, i.e., you do OK with sheet
	music and you're ready to move onwards a bit towards being
	able to improvise, embellish, etc.
 
	Like I say, I'm just starting into these two books, I haven't
	decided whether only one of the two would be THE ONE to have or
	not; at first glance they seem to complement each other very
	nicely, the Esterowitz seems more comprehensive (which is the one
	I bought first) but I'm not sorry I bought the Collins as well.
 
	Now the idea with this whole fake book scheme is to be able to
	ultimately concoct on the fly pleasing accompaniments to songs
	just listed with the melody line and chords, hence my goal with
	these two books is to get myself up to speed on becoming a good
	improviser and being able to unleash a number of different song
	styles as befits the individual melodies, situations, etc.
 
	I think this, for some folks anyways, might be a viable alternative
	path toward the goal of improvising/playing by ear, not necessarily
	getting you all the way there, but getting you well on the way.
	By no means am I belittling earlier suggestions here, I'm sure they
	are perfectly valid, and to play by ear probably will entail sooner
	or later some agony in which all crutches (sheet music, fake books,
	etc., etc.) have to be laid aside and the hard work done between
	just you and the instrument.  Just mentioning these books since
	maybe they can speed up or lay some groundwork to get farther down
	the path faster.  BTW, both of these books are pretty good at
	introducing a decent amount of theory (but these are NOT college
	textbooks on harmony by a long shot) and chord structures, etc.,
	that I don't believe I've ever seen laid out so well from any
	other sources (which are either helter-skelter or scholarly).
	Good luck, hope this helps, maybe worth a look, maybe or maybe
	not the best answer for you. 
	 							Bill
    

    Your story was similar to mine.
    
    I can't remember when I first started taking classical lessons.  I was
    probably 5 or so.
    
    The difference in my story was that I always had a tendency to "noodle
    around" (what my teacher called it).  After awhile it just became
    obvious that I had to do things that allowed me to improvise but
    at the time, I simply wasn not into jazz or rock (hated it in fact)
    so I ended up sorta improvising classical things.
    
    Now, I'm pretty much firmly into modern music (rock, jazz, progressive,
    standards, etc.).
    
    From your notes I gather the impression that while you have had good
    training in reading and technique, you probably have had little or
    now "ear training" and that (don't be offended) you may not be so
    fortunate as to have a very good natural ear.  Sounds like you have
    neither relative nor absolute pitch for example.
    
    I believe the basic skill you need to develope is to develope your
    ear to the point that you can "play what you can hear".
    
    My own recommendation is to learn (by ear) as many tunes as you can.
    
    You might start out by trying to find the notes randomly, but I think
    that pretty soon you will find that your ear will begin to "recognize"
    things likes chords and intervals and that as you keep working on it,
    things get easier and easier.
    
    Once you have a certainly ability to play what you can hear, your
    improvisation is limited only your technique and your imagination.
    
    	db