Conference moira::parenting_v3

    If I understood your note correctly,  there will be other children at
    the wedding/reception, but your son was excluded.  If there are
    children other than the ring bearer or flower girl invited, I don't
    see how *I* would interpret this as anything other than personal.  I
    would talk to the bride and groom about it.  If you don't like what you
    hear, stay home and enjoy the day with your son.  JMHO...
    
    				Mary

    re .1, No, at this point (today) the only other children who are
    "supposed" to be there are my niece and nephew who are IN the wedding. 
    Aparently her husband to be has nieces and nephews, whom I believe to
    be younger than my son, and want to bring them.  We were just "toying"
    with the idea of getting a sitter until last weekend.  I had actually
    suggested to my sister inlaw, the mother of the two children, that I
    would hire a sitter for the day who would come to the wedding
    exclusively to watch the three children and then later in the day take
    them away to either my home, my inlaws home or her home.
    
    My nephew's fifth birthday party was last weekend, and I mentioned to
    both sisters inlaw my plan.  Nothing was said at the time, but
    yesterday I got a clear message which was passed from my father inlaw
    to my husband to me, that my son was NOT welcomed.  I guess I'm upset
    for several reasons including  being completely snubbed as far as
    participation in the wedding goes.  She was our only bridesmaid, as was
    her (at that time) boyfriend who was the only usher.  She has chosen
    her friends to be in the bridesmaids as opposed to her family, and I'm
    feeling hurt.  My husband keeps saying don't sweat it, it's money we
    don't have to spend, but I can't see it that way.
    
    So any further opinions would be appreciated, including babysitting
    volunteers.
    
    Lyn

    Just an opinon here. Children can be real problems at
    weddings/receptions. They can fuss a lot in the church and thus disrupt
    the ceremony and they can wreak havoc at the reception. Not to mention
    that little ones typically "steal the show" wherever they are and,
    after all, this is the bride and groom's special day and they should
    not be upstaged.
    
    At the same time, I would also recommend to anyone planning to get
    married that if they do not wish to have children at the wedding they
    should respectfully request this of ALL the guests in writing with the
    invitation. It's rude and insensitive to pass the information along
    through a chain of relatives. And, I also feel it's unfair to have
    children participate in the ceremony while barring other children from
    the event altogether.
    
    Mike

    
    Lyn, in your .0 note, you said that the grooms parents are insisting on
    bringing many other kids.  That's where .1 got the impression.  I think
    you meant insisting on NOT bringing......
    
    Kids at a wedding is a tough call.  I've seen kids that are well
    behaved at weddings, and kids that raise all kinds of hell at weddings.
    What I've also seen, and this may be the unfortunate case here, is that
    you'll have one of those families that lets their kids get away with
    anything they want out of the home and are little brats at weddings.
    Since you can't really discriminate, and you don't want THESE kids
    there, the only way out is to not invite any kids.
    I would go if I were you though.  It IS your sisters wedding, afterall.
    
    Chris D.
            

    This sure rings a sore note with me, but from a different standpoint. 
    When my husband I were married, we said *no* children of any kind.  The
    only exception would be his sister's 6 week old baby who was being
    nursed at the time.  My husband's side of the family gave me all sorts
    of grief.  "but MY children are wonderful and no problem" etc.  We made
    this decision for many reasons.. 1) my brother's kids were young and
    terrors, 2) we did not want to pay for children's meals when they would
    go uneaten, and 3) parents need a day out, away from children now and
    then and how could they enjoy themselves if they were watching their
    children?  My (soon to be) brother-in-law (dad of new baby) gave me
    SUCH a hard time and threatened not to come.  I understood his
    viewpoint and told him that his baby would be an excpetion, but it fell
    on deaf ears.  Anyway, getting back to the point in hand...
    
    If just the children in the wedding party go to the wedding/reception,
    then that's fine (and different).  However, I would have talk to your
    sister-in-law (or have your husband speak with her) about your feelings
    on this.  Perhaps the other side of the family is giving the bride and
    groom a hard time and they don't plan on giving in and it's causing
    friction.  This is what basically happened to us.
    
    Good luck.
    Mary
    

This sounds like two issues to me.  One issue not being able to bring your son
to the wedding, and the other is your feeling of being snubbed by not being
asked to participate in her wedding.

Are you making an issue out of your son's exclusion only because you weren't
asked to particpate in the wedding? Would you feel the same way at having to
hire a sitter if you WERE asked to be in the wedding?

I don't think it's unreasonable to exclude children from wedding receptions
and I, too, had an "adult only" reception when I got married.  A wedding 
*ceremony*, however, technically is not a private affair if held in a church.
It is supposedly open to anyone in the church community and is not by invitation
only.  While I personally would NOT bring a baby to a wedding ceremony for
fear having the ceremony spoiled by an episode of shrilled uncontrollable 
crying, I do not see anything wrong with bringing children providing they are 
well behaved and can sit still for the duration. (You didn't mention who old 
AJ is.)  If you want to bring AJ to the wedding and don't believe he would be
disruptive, then I say go ahead.  But I would abide by their wishes and not
bring AJ to the reception, which according to your base note, you were
originally planning on hiring a sitter for that part anyways.

Even though I had an adults only reception, I had 3 yr old ring bearer and
flower girl.  I didn't even think about the irony of it.  One was an only 
child, and the other had much older siblings that came to the reception. 

As for the situation where you feel snubbed by not being asked to be in the
wedding; I can understand how you feel, but you don't know the reasons why she
didn't ask you. Maybe she didn't want to burden you with the expense.  Having
someone in YOUR wedding doesn't obligate them to put you in THEIR wedding.  I
don't know if you were serious about boycotting the wedding just because neither
you, your son, nor your husband were asked to be in the wedding party, but
that doesn't sound like a close friendship to me.  I'm sure that was just
anger and hurt coming out, though.

� �ori �

Lyn,

I'm assuming that the bride and groom have no children of their own.  I chose
to have an "adults only" wedding and reception when I got married several 
million years ago ;-).  Now that I have children - my viewpoint has changed
and I would probably make different choices.

Some of our primary motivation at the time was economics.  We had a nice recep-
tion with a sit down meal.  There were no discounts for children - if I had invited
all the children of friends/family - that would have meant paying for *60* MORE
meals. (Even several million years ago - that meant $600.00.

Although some kids are well behaved at weddings - some aren't.  I felt more
comfortable telling everyone not to bring children than discriminating against
some.


Good luck - its a tough decision,
Rochelle

P.S. We did have a few boycotters - notably one couple who had the rowdiest
     kids I've ever encountered.

  This is a little off the subject, and probably won't help .0, but for any 
  of you who are planning weddings for yourselves or someone else may want 
  to consider doing what some friends of ours did.

  Because they had a lot of relatives and friends with children, and because
  the bride loves childres (she was a nanny at one time), she decided to
  include chilldren in the wedding.  She hired a sitter to take care of and
  entertain them during the entire reception.  This included taking them 
  outside to play with bubbles, etc.  They also had a special buffet table 
  set up just for children which included PB&J sandwiches, hotdogs, chips, 
  popcorn, etc.  

  Our children were 6 months and 4 years at the time.....we took a portacrib
  and the baby slept through most of the reception (it was during her normal
  afternoon nap time).  Our son went off with the sitter and the other kids
  and we felt like we didn't have to worry about him.  

Frank

    We have, occasionally, had similar problems.  Not all weddings
    welcome children, for the various reasons mentioned.  On the
    other hand, expecially in the case of out-of-town weddings,
    you can't really go if you can't take your child.
    
    I wonder if anyone has considered hiring some child-care services
    to handle ALL the kids together;  it seems that would give the kids
    a way to get away from the adults, and conversely.

    I just want to explain a little further, I DO NOT have any options
    outside of my inlaws for a babysitter for a full day.  My family,
    what's left of it is scattered throughout the country.  My closest
    relative is my aunt on the north shore of MA.  Obviously my inlaws are
    not an option for this one, my sister inlaw *should* know this, and
    seems to have an attitude of not caring about anyone but herself and
    her (obviously) favorite niece and nephew.
    
    I guess I feel like I'm being pushed up against a brick wall with no
    way to break through it.  I understand this is *her* day, but I'm upset
    that there appears to be no compromising.  Am I fighting a loosing
    battle?  Should I tell her the hard facts that if I do end up hiring a
    sitter for 8+ hours that there won't be much money left for her wedding
    gift?
    
    Usually I can see an objective solution in most difficult situations,
    maybe I'm just too close to this one.
    
    Lyn

    
    If you *really* don't have an option, then you probably shouldn't
    attend the wedding.   Other than that, I'd consider just bringing
    AJ to the church and hiring a sitter for the reception portion
    and perhaps leaving the reception a bit early to cut down on the
    amount of time that AJ is left with your 15-year-old sitter.
    
    Frankly, though, I'm hearing a mixed message and a lot of hurt
    in your notes.   If you're considering telling your sister-in-law
    that if you have to hire a sitter, you won't have much left for
    their gift....I'm wondering how you would have afforded a gift if
    you and your husband were in the wedding - bridesmaid's dresses 
    and tuxes are very expensive!  
    
    Indeed, your sister-in-law is not really considering your predicament,
    but I'm willling to bet that she has a lot on her mind lately what
    with all the wedding preparations and what not.   Planning a wedding
    is major stress!
    
    Would it be possible to line AJ's weekday provider for the weekend
    day in question?   
    
    Carol

    Would your husband consider _not_ going to the wedding?  (It's _his_
    sister, right?)  If not, would he consider going by himself? 
    
    I've been to many family weddings with lots of kids, but there have
    also been some where a minimum age was imposed (no kids under 8 or
    whatever).  My husband and I just went to his cousin's late-nite,
    black-tie wedding which was definitely no-kids (even if Marc had been
    invited, I would have left him home anyway since it didn't start until 7
    p.m.).  Fortunately, all our families live in N.Y., so I was able to
    leave Marc at _my_ parents house.  I realize that's not an option for
    you.  
    
    I don't know what your relationship with your husband's family is like
    (sounds like not too great), but I think not going at all could
    certainly create more problems in the relationship.
    
    Does AJ have any friends whose parents would be willing to take him
    for the day?  (This is a local wedding, right?)

    Lyn, I follow this notesfile closely, and know that you have a
    less-than-perfect relationship with your in-laws.  I think some of that
    is coming through here and you need to divide all these issues.
    
    (I don't mean to be critical at all.  I'm trying to help, and hope you
    see that.)
    
    If the wedding is in the church, I think some previous noters
    suggestions of taking AJ to the church and attending the reception for
    a shorter time may be in order.
    
    You could also ask to share a babysitter with some of the other family
    members invited.  My siblings and I routinely do this.  (We have to
    since we all live out of our hometown and my Mom lines up a few sitters
    for the 8 grandkids.  It certainly cuts down on the $$.)
    
    I know it hurts to not have your child included.  I would hate having
    to learn that lesson so young.
    
    Good luck in whatever you decide to do.
    
    judy

    In reply to note .03, I disagree on the part where you said that is was
    "unfair" to have children in the wedding and ban other children
    attending the wedding.  There are so many different reasons why this
    takes place.
    
    I am getting married next month and requesting on the invitations for
    an "adult" count of people, not children, I am having 3 children in my
    wedding party - two of them are age 7 and the other is age 10 - these
    children are my neice and nephews the only children in our families. 
    Our reasons for what we are doing is definately cost - we are paying
    for this weeding ourselves and can't afford a plate for each child
    (which would be many) - if I could afford too, I would in a second) 
    but I wouldn't leave close family out of my wedding either - again this
    is a personal choice and just my opinion - if people whom we are
    inviting resent the fact we are asking for just an adult count, then
    that is their choice not to attend - but it's not meant that way - and
    relatives and friends should know that if they know you.
    
    This is why I felt that remark was "unfair" to state.  
    
    Again, this is only my opinion.
    
    Laura
    (Mother to be in September '92)

    Four years ago my in-laws (husband's parents) threw a 50th wedding
    anniversary party for themselves and didn't invite any of their
    grandchildren.  As Elizabeth was only nine months old at the time (and
    this anniversary was 500 miles away) we took her along.  My
    mother-in-law got us a sitter in Pittsburgh.  
    
    It was certainly not the best of circumstances.  Our child was staying
    in my in-laws apartment with a sitter she didn't know while we were at
    the anniversary party.  Elizabeth was fine for a while but eventually
    broke down into serious tears.  Ultimately, the sitter called the "club"; 
    we had to go pick up Elizabeth and the sitter and bring them in the party. 
    The poor sitter spent the remainder of the evening trying to entertain
    Elizabeth and herself in the lobby while I ran back and forth between
    the lobby and the party.  
    
    I was not particularly happy with the whole experience, but my in-laws
    did have the right to have the type of party they wanted.  (They're
    definately not kiddie-oriented folks.)  In my mind I did what was
    necessary to maintain a good relationship with my husband's parents.
    
    Good luck,
    LZP
    

    I do need to clarify, because although my husband doesn't get into this
    notes file, I know several of his coworkers and many who know us DO!
    
    I DO have a very good relationship with my motherinlaw and father
    inlaw. They would literally give you their last dollar and the shirt
    off their back.  ( to clarify they have helped us out several times
    financially, and for the shirt off the back thing, my pictures coming
    out of the church after our wedding showed me wearing my M-I-L's mink
    coat, and her standing there freezing in a thin dress, in NOvember).
    They footed the entire catering bill for our wedding and had the
    reception at their home, it was wonderful!  
    
    When we were  'in between' homes we they offered us their home for an
    indefinite time, AJ was born while we were there.  The hurt comes from
    my sister inlaw and a "better than thou' attitude.  But so far there
    has never been any major disputes.  I sort of feel like what have I got
    to loose if this becomes a feud, but why stir up trouble.
    
    I still haven't decided what to do, and may try some "negotiations"
    during the weekend.
    
    Thanks for all the input!
    Lyn

    Here's $.02 from Miss Manners:
    
    The way the wedding invitation was addressed is a clue to who is
    welcome.  If the invitation reads "Mr. and Mrs." (or Mr. and Ms.)
    then no kids are invited.  If the invitation reads "Mr. and Ms.
    *and family*" (emphasis mine), then kids are invited/welcome.
    
    Frankly, I have never really heard of kids being invited to a wedding.
    Probably everything depends on what the local custom is.  I grew
    up in Pittsburgh and never was invited to one single wedding that
    my parents were invited to.  The only reason I went to my sister's
    wedding is because she and her husband are oldest in their respective
    families and the families are large and there is a large gap between
    them and the youngest in the families.  However, even at that, my
    younger brother and sister and I were 8, almost 10 and almost 12,
    respectively.  
    
    I'm not saying anyone is right (I do agree with previous noters
    that you should have been told up front that you'd have to make
    other plans for AJ).  I'm just saying that there is an "etiquette
    precedent" for not inviting kids to a wedding.
     

    Sounds like there's a lot of subtext/read-between-the-lines stuff going
    on here, but I agree with .14 and .17 about kids IN the wedding...
    they're members of the cast, as it were (vs. members of the audience)
    and so have privileges that the invited guests do not.  I see no breach
    of etiquette in specifying no children among the attendees while
    including a flower girl and ring bearer in the wedding party; I *think*
    Emily Post backs me up on this!
    
    Leslie

    OK, here's the plan as of right now anyway.
    
    We've decided to leave AJ with someone for that day.  We will play the
    later parts of the reception by ear, and if it seems appropriate
    towards the end we may run out, fetch him and bring him back to the
    reception, ultimately then back to my inlaws home for the party there,
    hopefully he will fall asleep later in the evening.
    
    I do, however plan on letting both my inlaws, and my two sisters in law
    know how upset I am with their handling of this situation.  Everyone
    should have known how hard it is to get a sitter for that long of a
    period, since they (the inlaws) are usually the ones who take care of
    him when we have an all day occation to attend.
    
    Sort of ironic, the last wedding we were invited to children were
    invited, in fact encouraged to attend.  We left him with his
    gramparents for that day so we *could* enjoy ourselves!  Although we
    had fun there, I kept having mommy guilt knowing that he could have
    been there, and that we were having such a great time even without him. 
    I will keep you posted of any chaning events.  The wedding RSVP's are
    due back by this weekend, we haven't yet responded.
    
    (Thanks Dottie!!)
    Lyn

    I am of the belief that if done correctly, open communication can clear
    a myriad of hurt feelings and mis-understandings. 
    Without being cruel, let others involved know of your feelings (and 
    perhaps a little of your hurt) in order to get things straightened out.
    
    As far as children are concerned, IMO the ceremony at the church should
    possibly not have *young* children (under 5) in attendance, because of
    possible disruption, bordom on the part of the child, and possibly the
    taking away of the experience for the adult. However, I have always
    considered receptions as large family affairs and would not deny
    parents the joy of sharing their children with other relatives. The
    idea of hiring and on-site sitter for a large group of kids is
    excellent if it can be arranged.
    
    For us (3.5 years ago) we had several friends who had decided not to
    bring their small babies, my cousin's 7 year old daughter who was our
    flower girl and Alan's cousin's 2 daughters, 8 and 11, who were the 
    only children there. I suppose it made it easy for us in some ways.
    
    As far as participation in the wedding goes, as a person who tried to
    make everyone happy in our arrangements, I understand how hard a task
    it can be. I ended up in a shouting match with my elected
    maid-of-honour a few weeks before the wedding, and had to replace her
    with someone I should have chosen in the first place. Its very
    difficult. There was one friend of Alan's who was NOT in the wedding
    party (although her husband was an usher, and their mutual friends were
    best man and bride's maid) and I think we may have hurt her feelings.
    In the end she made some mention that at her wedding there was a
    friend who took care of the Guest Book, making sure everyone signed. I
    took her broad hint and suggested she do that for us. It made her 
    happy even though it was a little of a disaster (another story...). 
    
    In the end we got out of being stressed by all the diplomacy by
    convincing ourselves that a wedding is not for the bride and  groom,
    but for everyone around them. 
    
    Again, be open and honest, and try not to forget everyone else's 
    point of view...
    
    Monica

I think this is a great opportunity to enjoy the day with family and spouse
... while AJ is enjoying himself "outside the confines" of a boring wedding
(now that's how a young kid would really feel, folks!) and an "adult"-filled
reception.

If I were "5", I'd much rather be running, jumping, climbing, yelling,
biking, skating, chasing other kid(s) ... and eatting at McDonald's ...

and Mom/Dad get to enjoy themselves (at the wedding/reception) without
being pulled along by a typical 5-year-old, bored with the environment and
trying so hard to shake them ants out of his pants!

And, I see nothing wrong with bringing AJ to the tailend of the reception
(to meet his family), either.  And I would "hope" no one else (in-laws)
would object!

Dottie

PS:  The one who not only invited kids to our wedding, but let each kid
     cut their very own slice of our 3-tier wedding cake -- which seemed
     to bother the hell out of everyone BUT the bride/groom! Jim didn't mind
     that I had a LONG line of kids waiting to dance with "the princess" (or
     that the photographer used half his film taking pictures of each kid 
     dancing with the bride and each "kid" cutting the cake and all those
     family pictures people wanted taken!  I can honestly say I didn't hear 
     one "squabble" (I must have left the planet that day!)
     and would do it all the same way again!  But to each their own ... 
     different strokes for different folks ... if a bride/groom wishes to 
     exclude kids, I'd honor their wishes and not feel any guilt about totally
     enjoying "a day with adults"!  (Isn't it great to say "sorry, AJ, I
     didn't call the rules on this one"!)

PSS: Glad I can help out, Lyn.  It's a perfect arrangement (solution).

    My feeling in general about weddings is that it's the bride and groom's
    day and WHATEVER they want is okay--within reason of course. 
    
    We didn't have young children at our wedding.  The family ages jumped
    from my brother's kids (2.5 years, 1.5 years, and one week), who didn't
    come, to teenagers, who did come, so it made the decision easy.  
    
    We did NOT invite our friends' children.  We didn't expect any problem
    with that, but one couple showed up with their preteen child--AFTER
    receiving an invitation addressed to the two adults AND responding that
    "2" would be attending!  What were they thinking?  It would have been
    very awkward (since we had exactly 10 tables of 10), but we had a
    no-show at their table.
    
    -Tracy
     

    
    	My 2 cents... which is about what it's worth, but anyway.
    
    I don't think young children belong at a wedding.  My 7 year old
    daughter was asked to be the flower girl at my nieces wedding.  She was
    thrilled.  However, the day of the wedding, she kept bugging me for
    this and that, and wanted to be waited on hand and foot and she wanted
    the attention of my niece and her husband, and on and on... not that
    she was bad, she just was out of place.  My other daughter, age 11, was
    not in the wedding and was put at the "teens" table.  There were about
    8 of them all told, and Juli and another girl were the youngest.  She
    was miserable all day!
    
    However, I believe it's up to the bride and groom.  It really is THEIR
    day.
    
    I'm attending a wedding in May myself, and both girls are invited
    again.  It's the wedding of the mother of my youngest daughter's best
    friend.  So, there'll be tons of kids there.  That may work out okay.
    
    Anyway, try to figure out if you were upset because AJ wasn't invited
    to be a ring-bearer, of if it was because he wasn't invited - period.
    
    
    jean
    

    
    
    After reading 1351.11, I'd say go without him.  
    
    Chris D.

    We just returned from my sister's wedding this past weekend--four hours
    away from home--and I learned one important lesson: follow your
    instincts about what would be best for you, your husband, and your
    child.
    
    In our case, our children were not invited to the wedding, but we had
    to decide whether to leave them at their daycare provider's house for
    the whole weekend, or bring them with us and find a babysitter for the
    wedding (from 3 P.M. until 2 A.M., all told). I was leaning toward
    leaving them with our daycare provider (my rationale was that although
    it would cost megabucks, I'd feel best knowing they were getting the
    best care) while my husband wanted to bring them with us (and use an
    unknown babysitter for the wedding). I gave in, the babysitter turned out
    to be awful, and I had a lousy time at the wedding (another LONG story).
    
    I don't think you can fault your sister-in-law for not inviting your
    son, but in the end, you should do what feels right for you and your
    family--either go without him for the entire wedding, get him for the
    latter part of the reception, or don't go at all.
    
    Good luck!
    
    Nancy (who is so glad that her sister's wedding is over!) 
    
    

I'm getting married in two weeks, so have had to grapple with this
issue recently.  My thoughts are that the wedding ceremony and the
reception are two different issues.  Were we having a medium to large ceremony
in a public place (our first plan before we downscaled), I'd frankly
opt for children to not attend.  Ceremonies are quiet, frequently solemn
events, especially if held in a church.  The last thing I'd want is to
have a child (even were it one of my dear nieces or nephew) howling.
We considered hiring a sitter to watch any children for the 1/2
hour of the ceremony.

I'm more open to the idea of having a child attend a reception,
given that the noise level isn't such a concern.  I agree, though,
that it depends on finances and the preferences of the bride and groom.
If they're paying $30 to $60 per person, having children attend can be
a major financial strain. The bride and groom have enough to worry 
about without trying to please the frequently-contradictory needs of 
all their relatives.

    The word from Ms. Manners on ceremonies and receptions...
    
    Most ceremonies (like those held in church) are public events.  While
    you can inform folks and invite them to attend, you theoretically
    cannot restrict attendance to your invitees.  
    
    Receptions are another story.  Here it is considered gosh to come
    without being invited.