Conference moira::parenting_v3

    I am having a problem with this one conceptually. I would be most
    interested to see if this one is backed up with some fact or study or
    if it is the off-the-cuff postulating of some authority/group.
    
    An airbag inflates in 10s of milliseconds, and immediately begins
    deflating, within seconds it is deflated. It would seem that
    suffocation would not be an issue, since the duration is to short to
    cause any problem.
    
    If I remember correctly the charge that inflates the airbag is a
    nitrogen azide, which burns to nirtogen and a caustic. The caustic
    (Ammonia Hydroxide???) residue is left in the container and is not
    vented to the bag. The talc which is there to keep the plastic bag from
    sticking to itself, and to improve it sliding past itself on
    deployment. Talc is powdered rock (magesium silicate) and while not
    particularly healthy to breath (there usually is some small quantity of
    asbestos to talcum), it does seem somewhat alarmist to worry about a
    once or twice in a lifetime occurence of a major car accident compared
    the exposure received in a normal bathroom.
    
    The only thing I can imagine is that somebody is reacting to the fact
    the bag deploys with some force and may force a child's head backwards,
    but I would think that this would be another minor consideration given
    the severity of the accident that would case an airbag to deploy. I am
    basing that on the admonition to see that the "seat is pushed as far
    back as it will go."
    
    BTW, Passenger side airbags are fairly rare in today's cars because
    the space between the dash and passenger is much larger than the space
    between steering wheel and driver. This means that the bag must be
    larger, the inflation charge must be larger, and that the bag must
    inflate faster. This makes for a more complex/costly bag than for a
    driver side bag.
    
    /jim
    

Isn't baby powder mostly talc?

    .1> The only thing I can imagine is that somebody is reacting to the fact
      > the bag deploys with some force and may force a child's head backwards,
      > but I would think that this would be another minor consideration given
      > the severity of the accident that would case an airbag to deploy. I am
      > basing that on the admonition to see that the "seat is pushed as far
      > back as it will go."
    
    This was my assumption too, on reading the T&G article--that the force
    of the airbag would overcompensate for the forward motion of the seat
    and, assuming the baby seat is attached at the bottom, might push the
    top of the baby seat in an arc toward the rear of the car (baby's face 
    launched into the headrest).  That scenario does seem very unlikely to 
    me, though.
    
    Leslie

    re .2
    
    I think (and I could be wrong, but this is my take on this) that talc has 
    been replaced by corn starch.  And if it hasn't been replaced than I know 
    there are corn starch products, like baby powder with corn starch, that 
    you can choose instead of the talc type powder products.  I seem to
    remember reading somewhere (where, is the question!) that talc isn't used
     (as much) as it used to be because of the harmful effects of inhaling it.
    
    Nancy                                      

    This is more on the subject of Talc, then the airbag...but if anybody
    knows where that "question is", I would be interested in reading the
    information.  Reason being, is that I am 6 months pregnant and I use
    the baby powder with talc all the time.  After reading in this note
    about the talc, I'm concerned about using this and inhaling it.  Could
    this harm the baby?
    
    ..Lori

    As I read the article, the problem seemed to be that the bag
    inflates with some force.  Even an adult who slams into the bag at
    high speed experiences some bruising, though nothing like the
    damage from an ordinary collision.  The same force can seriously
    injure a baby. 
    
    --bonnie

    Re: 1273.5
    
    Rest assured, no matter what type of powder you use, your baby will not
    be harmed.
    
    The original Talcum powder was a finely ground Magnesium Silicate which
    for you chemistry aficianados is Mg3Si4O10(OH)2. In itself it is fairly
    benign. The problem came in that we got better at chemistry and
    microscopy, we began to see that a low concentration contaminant of
    **SOME** talcums was asbestos A2B5(Si or Al)8O22(OH)2.
    
    Inhalation of asbestos in high quantities has been linked with
    asbestosis and other respiratory problems. There was some hue and cry
    about 10-15 years ago, which has died down, and most manufacturers
    sample their talcum powder to make sure that there is no asbestos
    content.
    
    By common usage, talcum has come to mean a finely ground powder, so
    several toiletries although not being made from magnesium Silicate
    became known as talcs. Baby powders made from cornstarch are an
    example.
    
    By common sense it is not good to continuously breath in any type of
    dust for any period of time.
    
    /jim

    Re: .7
    
    Thanks Jim.  I'm relieved and educated!
    
    ..Lori

re.7:

Interesting stuff! FYI, in the UK, health workers still issue warnings to mums
to be about using any kind of powder on new borns as (in their words) it has
been found to cause respiratory problems.

/Dave.

re: baby powder

I remember being told in our birthing class not to use any powder on a newborn
because if they accidently breathe some of it, it could cause them to stop
breathing.  The nurse who taught the class said she was aware of one infant
death because of this.  Altho the risk is somewhat small, any risk that can
cause death and can be avoided should be.

This risk applies to babies only...not to adults (presumably because our lungs
are larger and/or more developed?)

� �ori �

I read -- don't remember where -- that the correct way to apply baby powder is 
to put it on your hands, then apply it to the baby.  That releases a lot less 
powder into the air.  That's what we did.

Clay

The recent Consumer Reports article on child seats for cars also mentioned
not putting your child in the front if there is a passenger air bag.
I don't remember it saying why.

A question about suffocation: when the bag deflates, where does it go?
Does it get retracted back into the dashboard, or does it just lie there?
If it lies there, and the parent is unconscious (or dead) then I would
think that it would be possible that the air bag could be still on top
of the infant's face, and could therefore obstruct their breathing.

     Carol

>The recent Consumer Reports article on child seats for cars also mentioned
>not putting your child in the front if there is a passenger air bag.
>I don't remember it saying why.
    
    Because when the air bag deploys, it inflates with such force that it
    slams the infant seat into the seat back.  
    
    I saw a demo on tv (don't remember the program or newscast), and it
    looked pretty scary.  When the air bag deployed, the rear-facing seat
    smashed into the seat back--it looked as though it could cause severe
    head injuries to a child.
    
    As I recall, the warning not to use child seats in front passenger
    seats (with air bags) was only for *rear-facing* infant seats. 
    Although, you're supposed to keep the kid in the back seat anyway...
    
    Sue-not-a-parent-just-an-auntie-looking-for-info-for-her-adorable-niece
         

    Re: 1273.12   by CSC32::DUBOIS   "Consumer Reports"

>>A question about suffocation: when the bag deflates, where does it go?
>>Does it get retracted back into the dashboard, or does it just lie there?
>>If it lies there, and the parent is unconscious (or dead) then I would
>>think that it would be possible that the air bag could be still on top
>>of the infant's face, and could therefore obstruct their breathing.
    
    After the bag deflates, it just lies there. Since the Bag is anchored
    either to steering wheel or to the passenger dash, it will hang about
    0.5 meter from the passenger/drivers face, so a suffocation hazard
    would be somewhat far fetched. Remember the entire package; igniter,
    propellant, bag, and case fit within the steering wheel hub. It isn't
    very big. There probably isn't more than two square meters of material
    in all.
    
    /jim
    

    Interesting ...
    
    In .0 it seemed to imply that a rear facing seat was OK whereas .13
    says that rear facing seats are the problem ...
    
    Confusion reigns.
    
    On the other hand one doesn't really use a front facing car seat in
    the front seat for a multitude of reasons.  
    
    Stuart

    
    
    I have been out most of this week but:
    
    >> I am having a problem with this one conceptually. I would be 
    >>most interested to see if this one is backed up with some fact...
    
    
    The news report that I saw showed a rear facing car seat on the
    passenger side being destroyed ( with a dummy in it). It had nothing to
    do with talc or powder or anything else. While I would not have
    believed that an airbag could "put the crunch" in a baby car seat, 
    I saw the slo-mo on the news and it convinced me.
    
    doug
     

    RE: .16
    
    Yep, that's what I saw too.  I was also amazed that an airbag could
    deploy with such force.  Never would have guessed it, but I'm a
    believer now!
    
    Sue

    FWIW, I have made a request in the Fire_Rescue_EMS notes for a
    clarification on what this is about.  I have an interest in this not
    only as a parent, but as an EMS worker.  Although I don't get involved
    in the *acutal Mechanics* of a rescue, (I will not handle the jaws of
    life the things are just too much for me) I would like to know what
    condition my patient is going to be in after rescue, or what to
    anticipate en route to the scene.
    
    I will relay whatever info is obtained.
    
    Lyn

    I just thought I would write and let you know that a friend of mine
    was in an accident in which her airbag was deployed, and she had burns
    all up her arms from the thing.  These had been caused by whatever goes
    off to inflate the airbag.  She was not injured at all except by the
    airbag...
    
    I would be concerned about those burns on the baby's face or
    something...
    
    Lesa

    Lesa, please for my purposes as a rescuer, tell me what make and model
    and year your friend was driving?
    
    We have been told that burns were impossible.  I've always been a
    little skeptical, especially since the explosion in the factory that
    makes the passenger side airbags, a few months ago.  Supposidly the
    explostion was triggered by chemicals used to deploy the bag!
    
    Lyn

    Lyn,
    
    I have a 1990 Ford Taurus wagon which had a recall for the air bag. 
    The claim was that the driver could get burned from the chemicals if
    the bag deployed.  I don't remember if it had to do with the way the
    bag was "packed" or if it was a defect in one of the tubes or what.  As
    soon as I heard about it I had mine checked out (and was told it was
    fine), but I would guess that some people just tossed the recall
    notice.
    
    marianne

    Lyn,
    
    She was driving a Chrysler product, I believe.  It was a new car.
    
    Lesa

    Lesa, so much for "buy American, Buy quality" 
    
    Oh that WAS a tacky comment wasn't it!  ;-)
    
    Lyn

    Please be aware that baby powder with Talc IS DANGEROUS.  The
    circumstances of danger are the child inhaling the loose powder
    and it interfering with their breathing.  However, the reaction can
    happen later, even several hours I have heard, somewhat like an allergic 
    reaction.  When changing an active baby on a changing table, many of us 
    will hand the child any item within reach to get their attention long 
    enought to complete the job at the other end.  If they are able to get 
    a nosefull of powder, problems can arise.  Even the amount in the air
    from a generous application can be enough to cause problems.  Talcum
    powder is dangerous.
    
    Use cornstarch-based powder, keep toys on the table to hand to them, 
    GET RID of all talc-based baby powder, and as an earlier note suggested, 
    apply the powder to your hands, then to the baby.  
    
    Cornstarch smells and works the same as far as I have ever been 
    able to tell, and makes me just a bit more comfortable.      
    
    

    
    
    >>Use cornstarch-based powder, keep toys on the table to hand to them, 
    >>GET RID of all talc-based baby powder, and as an earlier note suggested, 
    >>apply the powder to your hands, then to the baby.  
    
    >>Cornstarch smells and works the same as far as I have ever been 
    >>able to tell, and makes me just a bit more comfortable.      
    
    'Course I heard that cornstarch in baby powder is flammable, backed
    by a rather convincing demonstration of someone igniting the air
    after this stuff had been fluffed up into it, by a cigarette.
    
    Your comment about the talc stuff is really the first I hear.
    
    Monica

    Also, cornstarch absobrs moisture and holds it on the skin ...
    
    If your kid has a diaper rash cornstarch based powders are NOT the
    way to go!
    
    I know that SOME talc is ground exceptionally fine and blocks pores.
    I know that too much in the air is hazardous ... for you too -- so
    get rid of all talc based products which includes bath powders, face
    powders, powdered make up ....   Are you willing to do that ?????
    
    Before saying get rid of it ... lets get the entire message and
    get the risks and so on down for every one to make some valid
    judgement calls ...
    
    Stuart

    re: 1273.24   TALCUM POWDER IS DANGEROUS    by SSAVX::MARGOLIS
    
    Sorry to disagree, but talcum is predominantly magnesium silicate. The
    incidence of allergic reactions to it is extemely low. Besides being an
    ingredient in most cosmetic powders, it is also a minor ingredient in
    most deodorants (along with Aluminum silicate).
    
    Long term inhalation of any finely ground metal silicate is not good
    and can cause several recognized health problems, but the exposure
    required is much higher than one would get by a several time daily
    application of power. (Mine and mill workers do have the problem.)
    
    There is an effect whereby a dust can trigger a spasm of the
    epiglottis, which would cause breathing problems. That problem usually
    only occurs in exteremely large dust concentrations and it is not
    limited to mineral based talcums, but can occur with with organic
    powders like corn starch.
    
    Most of the concern around mineral based talcum, as I pointed out in
    1273.1 came from minor contaminants (chiefly asbestos). Vendors have
    since put in programs to control the purity of their product.
    
    So the point is that dust control is important no matter what material
    you choose to use. The type of material is personal preference.
    
    If you think about one thing, cornstarch + water = a growth media for
    bacteria, while the magnesium in talcum acts as an inhibitor to 
    yeast and bacterial growth.
    
    /jim
    

    This seems like a related "add on"
    
    A coworker mentioned that some famous actress is sueing the makes of
    "Static Guard".  Seems she sustained first and second degree burns
    caused when the aerosol mist and can ignited while spraying her
    clothing with the stuff.  The ignition was caused by a static spark.
    
    The manufacturer is now putting a warning on the can advising you NOT
    to spray the mist while you are wearing the clothing, due to a possible
    ignition hazard, and they are also changing the propelant used. (I
    think it used to be propelled by some form of butane, and are now using
    either Co2 or just compressed air.)
    
    Now wait just a minute here, doesn't all their commercials show the
    women (mostly) spraying the mist directly on the outside of the
    clothing, while STILL having it on?  (what's wrong with this picture?)
    
    Lyn

    As for diaper rash, what works best is air.  Leave the diaper off for a
    minute, blow on his bottom (Nathan loves this, makes me feel silly!)
    and don't put the diaper on any tighter than necessary.  Nathan also
    unfortunately loves powder.  We have always tried not to use anything
    on his bottom, including wipes (we use a warm wash cloth and water only
    except while traveling), and he has had less than 10 strikes of rash,
    in 2+ years.  Now, we occasionally give him powder, when he remembers
    and screams.  We never let him play with it, and this makes it not a
    hazard for us.  
    
    
    Adrienne

DRIVERS ESCAPE INJURY IN ACCIDENTS ONLY TO BE HURT BY AUTO AIR BAGS
	Consumers not warned about possible dangers

Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel
Fort Lauderdale, Fla. -- Eileen Yinger's car traveled north at 25 mph on a wet
highway when it skidded into an accident that cracked one headlight and
wrinkled the right front end. 
  The crash late last month in Pompano Beach, Fla., ended, the owner says, in
a gentle thump that set off her air bag. 
  "All of a sudden there I am with smoke all around and tears coming down and
coughing," said Yinger, 69, a registered nurse from Centerville, Ohio. 
  "I wouldn't have been hurt in the accident.  I had my seat belt on."
  But she was hurt.  Not by the other car, not by metal or glass -- but by
the air bag.
  Trumpeted as a milestone in automobile safety, air bags have caused serious
burns, eye injuries, torn tendons, and broken bones, the Sun-Sentinel of Fort
Lauderdale has found. 
  No agency or organization keeps reliable statistics on the number of air bag
accidents.  Reports of the accidents are scattered among automakers, consumer
groups and government offices. 
  Like many owners of cars with air bags, Yinger had never heard about the
possible dangers.  She learned the hard way. 
  Paramedics rinsed Yinger down with water and rushed her to the hospital with
first- and third-degree burns on her arms and abdomen.  Her lungs were X-rayed
for chemical damage, though none was found. 
  "If you talk to the car dealer he says there's nothing wrong.  (Air bags) are
safe," Yinger said.  "And I said, "Well, how come I got burned?"
  She is not the first to ask.
  Car companies and auto safety groups, fearful of alarming motorists eager for
the air bag's extra protection, have done little to warn the public about the
system's risks. 
  Automakers' TV commercials show a billowing white pillow puffing out of a 
steering column, enfolding the driver like a marshmallow.  Air bags have turned
into a sales tool, ballyhooed as standard equipment on some models, along with
air conditioning and cruise control. 
  Consumer advocates such as Ralph Nader praise the bags as a breakthrough -- 
"a technological vaccine," Nader said recently. 
  And they do save lives.  From the day air bags first hit the road in 1974
through last year, they have protected an estimated 278 people in accidents
that would have been fatal, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety
Administration. 
  Blasted open by a controlled explosion inside the steering column or
passenger instrument panel, the air bag fills in 1/20 of a second.  Its nylon
surface travels at speeds up to 100 mph. 
  Once inflated, the bag belches smoke and powder that is mostly corn starch or
talcum powder but may include a small amount of sodium hydroxide, a skin and
eye irritant.  Intense heat floods from vents in the nylon. 
  The air bag's wallop has shattered bones and shredded tendons.  Burns result
from the heat, the chemicals or the abrasive surface of the bag.

    
    Wow!
    Never heard of THAT before!
    
    
    - Monica

    Carol, thank you for taking the time to relate this article.  It seem
    to be an explaination for a previous note (.20 or .21?).  We, as
    emergency personnel have been warned to approach a deployed airbag
    cautiously, and to gently feel the steering wheel because it may be
    hot!  
    
    Thanks for taking the time!
    Lyn