Conference moira::parenting_v3

My stepdaughter has married a muslim.  They will have their first child in
February.  Like Laura, I also would like ideas for shaing Christmas with our
non-christian relatives.

With our Jewish friends who observe kosher diet, we have always shared New 
Year's rather than Christmas with them.  We always gave their daughter a small
gift at this time.  We're not particularly religious and Christmas to me has
always represented a time of goodwill and sharing so this has not been a 
problem.  

Now with a muslim son-in-law, it is different.  He also follows strict muslim
diet which makes sharing Christmas day together difficult at best.  This year,
we will probably opt for fish on the 26th as a meal together (I really am not
fond of fish).

Any and all ideas welcome.

    Cheryl,
    
    I think it's best to ask your stepdaughter's husband how HE feels about
    it and what HE wants.  Let him be your guide.  If he grew up in a
    moslem country, Christmas is probably a novelty to him with no
    emotional baggage attached.  If he grew up in Germany or Switzerland,
    he may have felt different, excluded.  Ask him if he feels comfortable
    coming to your home at Christmas.  Remember that the Moslem religion
    reveres Jesus as a prophet, so Christmas is not completely alien to his
    religion, as it is for Jews.
    
    The dietary issues are somewhat separate.  It sounds like he has
    already told you what he needs to eat at your house.  All you can do is
    follow his guidelines.  Be reassured that this is equally difficult for
    non-kosher families when a new kosher member (newly religious child or
    spouse) is introduced.   If you don't like fish, ask him about serving
    meat.  I believe Moslems buy meat from kosher butchers if a Moslem
    butcher is not available.  It might mean getting separate cooking pans
    and utensils.  If you serve on nice paper plates with the large plastic
    forks (like those sold at Hallmark in the US), you don't have to worry
    about dishes at least.  In the US, you can buy Empire frozen turkey
    roll in a metal pan all ready for baking.
    
    Do they plan to raise their child as a Moslem, a Christian, or
    non-religious?  This will give you some idea about entertaining her at
    Christmas.  You won't have a real issue with it until she's old enough
    to understand what's happening.  That buys you at least 2 years grace
    period.  If you and your stepdaughter's husband get settled on how to
    handle it in 1991 and 1992, that will go a long way toward handling it
    with the baby.
    
    By the way, congratulations on becoming a step-Grandma!
    
    Laura

    Hi Laura... I've been thinking many of these same thoughts this time of
    year.  I think you've got an extra year to think, though... so far, 
    Marc's awareness of Christmas is limited to noticing all the lights on
    the houses and trees.  And I don't think he even knows (or cares) why
    people have lights on their houses.  He just thinks it's kind of
    neat.  I guess, though, if we had more Christian friends whose houses
    Marc visited on a regular basis, he might get more exposure to it.
    
    My family daycare provider is non-Jewish and non-Christian, so we don't
    have to handle the issue there.  His daycare center seems to have a
    policy of celebrating all the holidays.  During Chanukah, they had
    menorahs on the wall, they read Chanukah stories, etc.  Now they have
    Christmas decorations up, and yesterday, Marc's class made Santa
    Clauses out of construction paper and cotton balls.  They're having the
    school Christmas party on Friday, and Santa is coming.  Marc doesn't go
    there on Fridays, so I don't have to figure out what to say about that
    right now, but if I had to, I think I would say something like "Santa
    Claus is a make-believe man like Mickey Mouse, and some kids think
    that he brings them presents", and leave it at that.  (If I were
    Christian, I would _definitely_ subscribe to the Santa-is-only-make-
    believe theory, but that's a whole other note!)
    
    Anytime he asks me what something is, and it happens to be
    Christmas-related, I say "Oh, that's a Christmas tree, but our
    family doesn't celebrate Christmas because we're Jewish."  I could just
    as easily have left out any mention of Christmas, but I decided to
    volunteer the info even if he doesn't know what I'm talking about, just
    to get it in his head.  I try to leave out any emotional overtones,
    since adults tend to have a lot more "baggage" about this issue than
    kids do.  I even have difficulty using this exact sentence myself, when
    co-workers ask me if I've finished my Christmas shopping, etc.  Or when
    the nurse at Marc's pedi asked him if he had his Christmas tree yet.  I
    should practice in the bathroom...repeat after me... "We don't celebrate
    Christmas because we're Jewish".  If Marc hears me say it enough,
    without any apologetic tone, he'll start saying it, too.  (This is
    perfect age, because he repeats EVERY SINGLE THING I say :-))
    
    From what I know about your involvement with the synagogue, and Jewish
    life, I don't think you'll have any problem with Ilona feeling like
    she's missing something.  
    
    Thanks for posting this note.
    
    Deb
    

    Also, I'd be interested to see the replies you'ld get if you cross-post
    the basenote in the BAGELS file.  
    
    The basic issue of feeling different than all the other kids (because
    you're Jewish, or any other reason, for that matter), which is really
    what you're asking, is a very difficult one.  Off the top of my head, I
    can think of 7 or 8 different reasons why I felt "different" than the
    other kids in school when I was a kid, only some of which had to do
    with being Jewish.  I think the key is for parents to feel good enough
    about _themselves_ such that they can teach their children to feel this
    way also.  MUCH easier said than done, though.

    Laura, Deb,
    I sort of have the opposite experience; although we have a number of 
    christian traditions to follow (mostly secular though) I have had the 
    experience of going to a high school whose population was 85% jewish
    at the time (just sort of happened that way because of the number of
    jewish families in the area and the zoning of the school). I was very
    sensitized to other traditions besides our own (it was different enough
    that I celebrated xmas eve and not xmas day!). 
    The two gentlemen who have been my closest and dearest friends for the
    last 15 years are also jewish, and from them and others I realized that
    the approach to the holiday season differs from one jewish household 
    to the other.
    What seemed to work well is to emphasize what a secular holiday xmas
    has become, i.e. those things that seem to attract the children
    (lights, presents, trees) are NOT part of the religious christian
    experience. Hence they are not necessarily a break with one's own
    tradition if one wants to include this aspect of celebration for the 
    children. 
    I realize that strictly speaking hannukah is not a high-holiday, but
    that it has been dragged into greater importance as a result of the 
    fan-fare that accompanies xmas. Perhaps the focusing on the traditions
    of hannukah can make the little ones proud and not feel left out --
    the specialness of celebrating something other than xmas. 
    I realize too that this might be hard when they are very young, but 
    its a good time to start with their understanding.
    Anyway, there is always hannukah gelt !! 8-) 8-) 
    
    It depends on your family focus on secular and religious events, and 
    what your own traditions tell you. There is no one formula for every
    non-christian family (especially when so many cultures cross between
    family and friends!).
    
    Good luck,
    
    Monica
    

    Laura, Deb-
    
    Laura, I'm so glad that you entered this note. I don't think many
    non-Jews understand what it is like for Jews during the season, or
    what it can be like to be a Jew living in a Christian world.
    
    We are Jewish, our oldest is 3.9 years old going on 16, and this is the
    first year that we've had to deal with this issue (last year Jamie
    enjoyed the season but didn't ask any questions). When asked why we
    don't have a tree or decorate our house (which has been six or seven
    times already), we've told her that we are Jewish and do not celebrate
    Christmas because it is not a Jewish holiday, BUT, we can enjoy the
    holiday with the people who do celebrate it (like our daycare provider,
    the nursery school, and our non-Jewish friends). Of course, Jamie isn't
    happy to hear this (she either throws a fit or says "Don't say that!"),
    but that's life. The one thing we *don't* say is that we celebrate
    Chanukah instead, because as you probably know, Chanukah is really not
    as significant a holiday to Jews as Christmas is to Christians (something
    that most non-Jews don't understand).
    
    When I was growing up, my parents left Oreo cookies and milk for Santa
    on Christmas Eve and gave my sister and I gifts on Christmas Day
    (similar to the mini-Christmas tree that one of you mentioned earlier). I
    won't be doing that for my kids, though, because I want them to
    understand and accept the explanation that I've given Jamie already
    (Jews don't celebrate Christmas, but can enjoy the season with those
    that do). We won't deprive them of gifts and goodies during Chanukah or
    just through the season), but we won't celebrate anything that isn't what
    we should be celebrating in the first place (your mileage may vary).
    
    I realize that you are both living in an area with a very small
    percentage of Jewish people (and my husband and I lived in So. New
    Hampshire for several years before our kids came along, so we really do
    understand), but perhaps one other method for making things easier for
    your kids during the Christmas season would be to network with other
    Jewish families in the area and do fun things together. This way, the
    kids might not feel so different from their neighbors and local
    friends.
    
    Nancy-
    
     

    I am Jewish, my boyfriend is Christian, we have a 16 month old son.  I
    will be putting up a tree this year the same as I have always done
    since I have lived on my own (and this is the first year that my mother
    has actually encouraged it).  I don't celebrate the religious aspect
    of Christmas, but rather the commercial aspect as I just love the
    decorations and the spirit and the joy people seem to feel this time 
    of year.  I also celebrate Chanukah.  My son will be brought up to
    understand both the Christian and Jewish religions.
    
    Lori B.

I'm glad you put this in here, Laura.  I've given this a lot of
thought myself.  Of course, since I am Christian and do not have
these experiences, I have no successful experiences to share.  However,
I sympathize with the problem, and wish you luck!

Some random thoughts, though: I *think* if I were Jewish I would not 
celebrate Christmas at all.  It is so incredibly hard being a minority
sometimes, that I would want to really emphasize my own religion to my
kids.  

What we currently do is read stories to Evan that have different cultures
represented, and help him learn about other people's customs and special
occasions.  We do some of the fun things, too, that others might do, like
watch Native American dances and discuss the significance, or play with
a dreidel (sp?).  In this way we hope that he will not only be comfortable
in his own religion (I hope he will be Christian, like I am), but will also
be comfortable around other people's religions.

Best of luck!  

       Carol

There are lots of people in Geneva who don't celebrate Christmas for various
reasons.  The range of nationalities is enormous, there are all the single
people who look upon it as a good time to get skiing done because people stay
off the slopes on Christmas day, etc, etc.  It really is a holiday where its
"every man for himself" since the business close and the shops are open.  My
son-in-law, who is a taxi driver, will probably work through all the holidays.

My son-in -law is a fundamentalist who was raised in a moslem country.  There 
is one kosher meat shop in Geneva selling imported meat (it is illegal to 
butcher kosher in Switzerland) at about 3 times the normal price.  I am not
willing to go to such lengths so we'll eat fish or cheese.  I am sure their
children will be raised muslim and my stepdaughter may even convert.  So there
is really no reason to celebrate Christmas with them except that it is
"expected" and I am sure neither my husband nor my stepdaughter could imagine
not sharing gifts.

I bow to whatever J�rgen wants in this since it is his daughter and I have had 
very little to do with raising her.  

ccb

    We have very good friends that are Jewish.  We clebrate most holidays
    together.  We to over there house for Jewish holidays and they come
    to our house, or someone in my families house, for Christmas etc.
    
    Each of our son's, ages 6-1/2 and 7-1/2, know that we celebrate 
    different holidays due to religious differences but we are stress
    the importance of understanding the differences and sharing.  We are
    not overly religious in our Celebrations.  It's worked so far and
    the boys each look forward to the others holiday's but they know
    which holiday 'belongs' to which family.  This past weekend Sam and
    I went over for a short visit and on the way up Sam's comment to me
    was "Boy, I hope Jason had a great Hanukkah!" - we had been up over
    Thanksgiving and they exchanged a Hanukkah gift.  We will also exchange
    Christmas gifts for the boys.
    
    So we're different but I enjoy sharing and learning about their
    traditions and I believe that they feel the same.  You can share and
    appreciate the others traditions without being unfaithful to your own
    beliefs, IMO.  It's really getting really interesting now that Jason
    is attending Hebrew school - and I was proud of him when he said the
    Hebrew prayers when the Hanukka candles were lit this year!
    
    Regards,
    
    Kathy
    

    
    
    	When I was young, my best friend was Jewish, and I was brough up 
    	Catholic.  We traded holidays:  I celebrated Hanukkah with her 
    	family - they always had a present for me one night of Hanukkah. 
    	She helped us decorate our Christmas tree, and there was a present 
    	for her on Christmas. 
    
    	I'm not sure if she ever felt left out, but there was a very large 
    	Jewish population where I grew up, so Hanukkah (and Rosh Hoshanna
    	and Passover) was emphasized as much as Christmas (and Easter). 
    	We made dradles (sp?) as well as Christmas ornaments, lit menorrahs 
    	and decorated trees.
    
    	Perhaps as your child grows older, he too will have someone to
    	share YOUR holidays with!  I LOVED making a succoth, attending the
    	purim carnivals, going to services and to Hebrew School, learning
    	how to say the Hebrew alphabet, etc. I vow to buy a menorah one of 
    	these days, since I am sad not to celebrate Hanukkah with my friends 
    	much anymore... ANyway, your child might feel special teaching HIS 
    	friends what YOU do for holidays, and won't feel as left out.
    
    	The only thing I remember causing tension in my school was teh
    	Santa thing.  I do remember some of the Jewish kids telling the
    	Christian kids that there wasn't a Santa, and that wasn't fair to
    	the partents who DID want to perpetuate the myth. (My husband and
    	I still haven't made up our minds WHAT to tell our children!)  So
    	when you tell your children that Santa is someone SOME kids believe
    	in, make sure to tell them not to tell those kids, espcially at 
    	young ages, that there isn't a Santa.
    
    	-Justine (who is sorry for having misspelled so many Jewish
    	holidays, but it's been so long since I went to Hebrew school!)
    
    

We are not Christians. We celebrate "Yuletide", a pre-Christian festival. It's
exactly the same as Christmas without the religious bit, ie. giving of gifts,
a feast, merry making etc... All this existed long before the Christians
hijacked the festival.

/Dave.

    I have to say that I really resent that last note .12.  Christians
    celebrate the holiday in the Christian way.  If anyone "hijacked" YOUR
    HOLIDAY it was non christians trying to make a buck off of it.
    
    I don't think the original note was meant to "bash" Christians, but note
    12 makes it look that way.                           

I'm sorry but it is a fact that many of the traditions now known as
"Christmas" pre-date Christianity. Also I am not bashing Christmas merely
pointing out that non-Christians can enjoy a mid-winter celebration which
encompasses the same types of activities and therefore not be seen to be
missing out or party-poopers!

/Dave.

   re: non-Christian tradition and the last few ... as far as I know,
   Dave (@REO) is correct.  I believe that it is historical fact that
   Christians often used or adapted local non-Christian tradition,
   custom, and even places of worship in their efforts to convert
   local non-Christian religions to Christianity.  
   
   For example, I believe it was common practice for some Christian
   missionary groups to build churches on the same site as
   non-Christian holy places to make it easier for the non-Christians
   to accept the holiness of the new church.  Also, I believe that the
   Santa Claus figure himself pre-dates Christianity in more than one
   culture.
   
   - Tom (another Christian)

    Yes, Dave's basically right.  
    
    The Christian absorption/coexistence with pre-existing religions
    and beliefs isn't necesarily as cynical as modern phrasing and
    attitudes make it sound, either.  Many early Christians believed
    that Jesus/God includes and supercedes all other gods, so that
    worship of Jesus/God could include all the practices the new
    Christians were used to, only offered now to the real God in truth
    rather than to the local diety in ignorance.  So they didn't see
    any conflict between crosses and, say, yule logs or mistletoe.
    Sometimes it was cynical, and brutal, of course, but most of the
    time it was a merging of cultures. 
    
    Early Christians also tended to see less conflict between secular
    and sacred life than many modern Christians, especially
    conservative Protestants, do.  Using mistletoe as a courting
    ritual during a Christian holiday wasn't seen as an offense to
    God, for instance.  
    
    --bonnie

Thank you all for clarification.  That was very educational.

Now, please, back to the questions about non-Christian children in a 
Christian culture.

      Carol duBois, PARENTING co-moderator

    Our oldest child is 4.25.  We celebrate Chanukah, Passover, and the
    high holy days.  We do not observe the Sabbath.  
    
    At this time of year, we explain to our oldest that some people
    celebrate Chanukah, some celebrate Christmas, some celebrate Kwanzaa,
    etc.  She doesn't yet think of Chanukah as the Jewish Christmas, but
    that is probably coming.  We have made it a point of giving our
    children Chanukah presents on Chanukah, and saving our Christmas
    presents for our Christian friends until Christmas.  Our oldest
    understands this, and has received all her Chanukah presents already,
    and has only recently started to hand out her Christmas presents to our
    nanny, nursery school teachers, etc.
    
    (I know that as a kid, I used to stay up Christmas eve to watch for
    Santa landing on my Catholic friends' houses.)  Our daughter is now
    fascinated with Santa, but knows that he will not be coming to our
    house.  I do not tell her that he's "make-believe" because I don't want
    her ruining it for any of her friends.
    
    By the way, there is an excellent book that I found in my personnel
    department.  It's called "It's not the Jewish Christmas", or something
    like that, by Geller.  It explains both Judaism and Christianity fairly
    well, although it's probably meant for an older child.  I know that,
    for me, the best way I FINALLY understood Christmas, Easter, etc. was
    when a friend and I sat down together comparing what we had learned in
    religious classes (she was Catholic).  I probably was only about 10
    years old, but, for once, we could understand our differences.
    
    Good luck.

In a similar vein to this discussion, my eldest came out the other day and
asked "Why it is that we give gifts to each other on Jesus birthday ?" and
then followed this up with why the Easter Bunny at Easter when that's when
Jesus died .... shhheeeeessshhh

After a bit of research and thinking about it ... we found reasonable
answers and they are probably applicable to this discussion.

Christmas is an aglomeration of a number of festivals, many Pagan, many
Christian.  The primary ones being the birth of Christ and St Stephen's
day and the Pagan Festival of Winter.

The idea of Christmas trees and lighting them in fact comes from the
festival of winter rather than any Christian festival.  It's the stars
and angels that come from that.

Gift giving at Christmas comes from two known sources ... first from the
gifts of the wise men and tied to Christian lore, and secondly from King 
Wenceslas to help people through the long cold winter months (and hence non-
Christian).  From the development of these two ideas and the combination
with St. Nicholas (pick your spelling) came Santa Claus.

(Easter was a little bit easier ... it combines the Christian Easter with
the pagan festival of spring ... when the bunnies appear from their holes!)

So, for our so-called Christian Christmas, a lot of it's roots, like the
Christmas tree, the yule log, the holly, the ivy, the mistletoe ... are
all from the pagan festival of winter ... and not Christian at all.  On
the other hand, they have become so intertwined with Christian tradition
it is really hard to separate them.

Stuart

    Steven last night gave me some thoughts on this subject. 
    
    He's 7, and the product of a mixed Jewish-Christian marriage, and
    doesn't exactly consider himself Christian.  He considers himself
    "both," and is equally proud of Hannukah and Christmas this year. 
    (Also quite proud of being different, it seems.)   His friends
    have been glad to learn about Jewish customs (as many as Steven
    knows; Neil's more agnostic than anything), and his teacher went
    to a lot of  trouble to incorporate the beliefs of her students
    into her holiday-season lessons this year -- they covered
    ethnic/religious  holidays like St. Lucia and St. Steven's days,
    and even some  far eastern religions, though in less depth because
    the teacher didn't have much in the way of resources to learn
    about it.  Steven apparently contributed a lot to the discussions
    from his dual perspective. 
    
    I think part of the reason that he's so comfortable with both
    religions is that Neil and I have been careful to always treat
    each other's beliefs with respect, even when we don't agree.  And
    we haven't been afraid to say we don't agree, or to say "Mama
    believes this, but Daddy believes something else."  
    
    I know this isn't quite the same thing as being Jewish in a
    non-Jewish community, but I think maybe the principle is true --
    that if you're honest and respectful from the beginning, your
    daughter will learn to respect herself, her religion, and her
    friends.  I think the things you're planning to do, especially
    sharing your holiday with the other kids the way they've shared
    Christmas with you, are great and will build both the other kids'
    understanding and your daughter's self esteem.  
    
    I also bet she would understand if you took her to the hospital or
    other activities with you and included her according to her
    ability.   She might not understand the intellectual components,
    but I think for now she will understand that she's part of Mommy
    and Daddy's beliefs, the same way and the same level of
    understanding of a Christian child at a candlelight nativity
    service.  Maybe they can't explain it, but they do get something
    from it.
    
    --bonnie
    
    

I am Jewish and married to a non-Jew who calls himself a Christian but doesn't
believe in Jesus Christ, but rather "the goodness of mankind".  We have 2
sons, one 9 (mine from a previous marriage) and one 5 months.

(confused yet?)

We are raising our children as Jews and celebrate all the Jewish holidays.
We also put up a tree at Christmas time, or visit my husband's parents and
celebrate Christmas with them.

I agree it's confusing being a non-Christian in a predominantly Christian
society, and it's confusing trying to incorporate Christian traditions so
as to not feel different.  Being a non-Christian has shown me just how
slanted our culture is toward honoring Christian holidays while ignoring
other religions (Christmas is a day off for most everyone, but who gets Yom
Kippur off without having to make a special request or special
arrangements?)

My husband feels that Christmas is not so much about the birth of Christ,
but about sharing good will.

As a follow on to a previous reply, history bears out that Jesus was not
born in December, but I believe I recall reading that it was more like
October, however don't quote me on that.

I enjoy the break in the winter darkness that Christmas brings, as well as
the cheeriness of the season.

My older son, understands very clearly that Christmas is not a Jewish
holiday, and he also enjoys it immensely.  I  think I'm being quite honest
when I say that all those gifts have alot to do with it.  To try and show
him the meaning of Christmas my husband believes in, I'm taking him to a
shelter for the homeless this Christmas day to do some volunteering.

I do think he feels different and is looking for a way to deal with it.
Today as we were leaving the house he asked if he could bring his Hebrew
school song book and prayer book to his daycare center to show the other
kids....

My problem (speak up if there are any others of you who share this view) is
that Christian holidays are celebrated in the public schools, which teaches
ALL children that to be Christian is the norm and to not be Christian is
somehow abnormal.

One way many schools try to get around this is by doing plays called
"Christmas Around the World" and lessons incorporating holiday themes.  The
problem with these is that they promote the idea that Chanukah is the
"Jewish Christmas".  The rest of the "world" celebrations discuss how other
countries celebrate Christmas, but of course they don't celebrate Christmas
in Israel, so they cover it by including Chanukah.  My son brought home a
word search from school entitled "Christmas Words".  Among the usual words
you'd expect to find (Santa Claus, reindeer, etc) were "menorah",
"dreidle", and "Chanukah".

So, in answer to the base note, I agree it's confusing and I think that the
answer is to help your children to feel comfortable with who they are, and
that they're not "different" from others any more than others are
"different" from them.  In other words, don't give it the "Jews living in a
Christian society" angle, and perhaps they won't feel so out of place as
we Jewish adults who WERE raised that way feel.

-Caryn

    Thanks for everyone's ideas.
    
    One thing I am doing now, is strengthening my own Jewish identity
    through Value of Diversity work here at Digital.  It's challenging and
    a bit scary, but I know it will be rewarding.  My daughter will share
    my identity, values, and self-esteem while she develops her own.  I
    hope she sees me as a strong, dynamic, self-confident Mama.
    
    By the way, if anybody wants to be on my VoD distribution list, please
    send me your Vaxmail node name and account.  As far as I know, I am the
    only one maintaining a Jewish constituency VoD list!  I'm in Littleton,
    Mass., but would like to stay in touch with people from any location.
    
    A healthy, happy New Year to everyone.
    
    Laura

    I read an article in the Boston Globe sometime during the last few days
    on this subject.  As a non-Christian I resent the attitude that we are
    somehow to be pitied because Christmas is not our holiday.  I do not
    remember once in my childhood ever envying my Christian friends.
    
    Christmas did not even impinge on my thinking.  It looked nice but it
    meant nothing to me.  Don't assume that your celebrations or
    non-celebrations cannot be explained properly to your children so that
    they will feel the same way I did.
    
    Since I am now married to a Christian, we do celebrate the holidays
    though not for their religious content.
    
    Don't make your kids feel like second class citizens.  Make them proud
    of whatever heritage they are.
    

    I'm a third-generation atheist.   I don't even know what religions
    three of my grandparents left.  We've always celebrated with a tree
    and presents and so on, and I didn't feel left out of anything as
    a child.  I think it's easy to consider Dec 25th not a Christian
    celebration, but a seasonal one (and the non-Christian origins of
    decorated pine tree, etc. make this easier).
    
    So I'd say: get a tree, decorate it, exchange gifts.  That's the
    seasonal part, with no religous overtones.  Ignore the carols, the
    creches, and other parts that are specifically Christian.  If you
    have a religion in your family it can accomodate a local secular
    celebration, I hope.
    
    My wife and I have conflicts over Santa, a quasi-religious figure
    (like the Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy)--but that's another issue.
    
    			-John Bishop

>    a child.  I think it's easy to consider Dec 25th not a Christian
>    celebration, but a seasonal one (and the non-Christian origins of
>    decorated pine tree, etc. make this easier).
>

I would describe it as a pre-Christian religious celebration.  You are
using non-Christian to imply non-religious, when that isn't the case.
    
>    So I'd say: get a tree, decorate it, exchange gifts.  That's the
>    seasonal part, with no religous overtones.  Ignore the carols, the
>    creches, and other parts that are specifically Christian.  If you
>    have a religion in your family it can accomodate a local secular
>    celebration, I hope.

This is all easy when the "secular" celebration you are participating in
is part of your families traditional culture or has NO overtones of specific
religion.  When you are talking about one of the major holidays of a religious
tradition with a history of persecuting your own, it is much harder (and less
appropriate).

All in all count us out of this Christmas stuff.  What it is is a nice day to
go skiing without the crowds  8^{).

Dick

    We have a similar situation although we are not Jews.  We are
    Chinese and we celebrate most Chinese holidays (Moon Festival,
    Chinese New Year, etc.).  We have never celebrated Christmas
    until this year.  We did it for our 3.5 yr old son.  Like other
    noters said, we think it is important for our children to understand
    and respect other religions.  And we really like the sharing
    spirit of Christmas.  We have books that talk about Jewish holidays,
    although we don't celebrate it.   When my kids grown up, we
    would like them keep their Chinese traditions, however, if they
    do decide on a different religion, we will repect their choices.
    
    Wendy

    I am NOT saying this to mock any group at all, just to relate that on
    Christmas AJ said something about What is Christmas, I answered to him
    that is was the celebration of the birth of baby Jesus.  His answer:
    "so when do we cut the cake, mom?"  I decided to just let him enjoy the
    holiday, presents, the spoiling of grand and great-grand parents etc,
    and leave heavyduty discussion wait another year.
    
    Personally, I grew up with a close Jewish friend.  Although I never
    fully grasped the meaning of Chanukka(sorry I'm awful spelling that) I
    was almost envious that she got presents for a full 8 days in a row,
    whereas our gifts were over and done with in a couple hours.  (I must
    have been rather selfish and materialistic)
    
    In preschool, both last year and this, AJ has been taught both
    Christian and non-christian aspects of the holiday.  In fact he can
    sing the "Driedle" song quite well.  Not to mock again but he recieved
    a Harmonica in his stocking for Christmas, he kept telling people all
    day that he got a "Hannuka" for Christmas.  We used the oportunity to
    explain what the word *he was using* really meant, the difference in
    the cultures.
    
    Lyn

    re .25: non-, pre-, un-
    
    While many of the features of the standard American Christmas
    are pagan in origin, any religious feeling based on that paganism
    is gone--at least for me.  So the tree, etc. is non-religious as
    far as I'm concerned.  Since no other religion I'm aware of has
    similiar tree-gift-snowman elements, if these elements are tied
    to any religion, it's to some form of Christianity.  So it really
    is a case of "non-Christian implies non-religous" for these items.
    
    But it's true that while I'm not Christian, the "traditional culture"
    is not foreign to me.  On the other hand, atheists have also been
    persecuted in the past, and not only by Christians!  But there's
    no historic atheist ethnic culture that I know of, and so no 
    systematic persecution to cause unease--so I understand why you
    might perfer skiing.
    
    			-John Bishop

We had a quiet evening with my Muslim son-in-law and step daughter and 
exchanged a few gifts.  No big deal.  We will in the future just avoid the
particular religious days with them.  My stepdaughter went by herself to her
mother's for Christmas.  She did not have a Christmas tree or any other 
decorations because her husband wouldn't let her.

There was one interesting point during the evening.  My son Dirk is studying
the life of Mohammed in school right now.  One of his best friends is an
adopted Guinean boy, black as coal, who was born the nephew of President
Toure of Guinea (until he was deposed).  Oumar, Dirk's friend, was born in
Rome and the Pope happened to pass through the hospital that day and baptised
all the babies, including muslim Oumar :-)

Well, Arbie, my son-in-law, is always trying to convert all of us.  When Dirk
told him that Oumar was born a muslim but didn't practice, Arbie said that that
didn't matter, once a muslim always a muslim and it is impossible to renounce
your faith (look what Salman Rushdie got for trying).  I said, "He may have
been born a muslim but he was baptised by the Pope."  The look on his face
was a real picture!

Cheryl