Conference moira::parenting_v3

Well, I never say "You win!"  There are times when I've said, "mom thought
about what you had to say on the subject and I've decided that this is what
we are going to do about it..."

There is nothing wrong with changing your minds, there is nothing wrong with
being open and honest with your children.  Just watch for possible manipulation.

There are many times when my husband and I don't confer on things - be careful.
You will find that this kids will pit one against the other.  A friend described
how he handles this situation.  When dad says no and mom says yes after - the no
prevails becasue you shouldn't have asked mom behind my back.  Thus the no vote 
carries the most weight.  ie, if you ever get conflicting answers, the no always
wins...until (if it's decided that) mom and dad have time to discuss it.

    I just have a question,..... How come this notes file is up to 1236,
    yet the volume 1 only went to 387. Is size why we have 3 different
    notes files??
    
    Charlene
    

    It would help a little if .0 would give some examples of the kinds of
    things they're fighting with their son about.  With Marc (2), we tend
    to let him "control" things that really don't matter that much, or at
    all.  Like what color socks he wants to wear, or which book he wants
    us to read him, or to some extent, what he wants to eat.  I think this
    encourages him to think for himself, and make him feel like he has some
    control over his life (which, realistically, at age 2, he has practicaly
    none of).
    
    Then there are things that he absolutely doesn't have a choice about - 
    going to daycare, brushing his teeth, wearing a hat, etc.  And then 
    there are all the things in the middle, that you have to stop and think, 
    is this really worth fighting about.  I'm sure you've heard it before, 
    but you really have to choose your battles, or you end up fighting all 
    the time.
    
    I'd be a little concerned about a situation where an adult feels like
    he's in a power struggle with a 3-yr-old.  This may be something you
    have to talk with your husband about, 'cause it's only going to get
    worse (wait 10 or 15 yrs... think of it... you're going to have a
    TEENAGE BOY in the house - shudders!)

    Hi Deb,
    
    The thing that prompted me to write this note this morning was
    when Bill wanted Michael to wear a t-shirt under his sweatshirt
    because of the cold weather.  Michael fought him.  I would have
    given in, husband fought it out ..not so much because it was necessary
    for him to wear it, but because he is tired of getting an argument
    from Michael all the time!  
    
    Naturally, things like what books to read, etc there is never 
    an arugment about ..or things like going to school, etc.  It's
    the stuff in the middle of the road that I am questioning ..
    
    I think my husband is just tired of having to either give in or
    have a fight ..maybe he (we) are expecting too much from him ??
    
    Nancy

We are experiencing the same thing with our 3.5 year old.  He gets very
fussy when he doesn't get his way. Sometimes even throws a tantrum.  When
he does this, even if it is something we would have considered changing our
minds about - we hold firm with our original decision.

We have been explaining to him that "We will NEVER change our minds when you
fuss.  If you want to change our minds, you have to ask us again nicely."
We've even changed our minds on minor issues (like letting him stay up 5 extra
minutes) if he stopped fussing and re-asked us nicely.  We are gradually 
beginning to see an improvement, but we've had to repeat the "We will never
change our minds if you fuss" lesson quite a few times...his first instinct is
to raise a ruckus when he doesn't get his way.

� �ori �

    Re: .5
    
    Lori-
    
    Does your son now think that everytime you say "no" he has even the
    slightest chance of you changing your minds? How do you help your child
    understand the difference between a real "no" and a "maybe no?" How
    does he react when you do stick by your guns--does he then throw a
    tantrum?
    
    When I first read your reply, I thought it was a terrific idea for
    avoiding tantrums, which my 3.9-year-old daughter is an expert at
    doing. Although this method may do that, albeit temporarily, I'm not sure
    if it can be a long-term solution, or if the child would always think
    he or she has a chance of changing someone's mind, be it a parent,
    teacher, babysitter, or friend. Would pleading (O.K., reasoning) until
    the parent/teacher/babysitter etc. gives in out of frustration be any
    better? That's what I would guess would happen.
    
    Of course, my husband and I had to fight with our daughter to get ready
    for nursery school this morning, so I'm certainly no expert. Like the
    basenoter, I would welcome any suggestions for keeping a happy, healthy
    household.
    
    Nancy- 

    I'm not sure with us it's an issue of changing our minds, but
    more of not wanting an argument over so many issues!  I guess
    we need to know when to give in to avoid an argument and the
    tears and when it's important for us to stick by our guns.
    
    It seems to be such a fine line lately ...it's hard to know.
    
    Nancy

    
    You keep using the term "give in" and I have visions of conversations
    going on in my mind of you saying one thing, your son wanting something
    else, you say no, he complains, you agree, i.e. give in. Now I don't
    have a toddler...yet (Anna is 7 months old), but to me clothes don't
    seem to be a big deal. Maybe by trying to give your son choices where
    you don't really care about the outcome and let his choice/decision
    stand would get rid of a few of these battles. In the case of the
    T-shirt under the sweatshirt (or whatever it was), maybe if your
    husband had suggested he wear a T-shirt to help keep warm and when your
    son said no, then just say okay, I thought you might like to wear it to
    help keep warm, but if you think you'll be warm enough without then
    fine. Maybe this way your son won't feel he's fighting to get what he
    wants, but helped in the final decision. Now I may be way off base, but
    this seems to be what I've read in other notes. Give them a choice when
    the outcome doesn't matter and no choice where there is no alternative,
    i.e., going to daycare, etc.
    
    Patty

     This problem is one of the toughest.  It's not hard to state a
guideline, but the guideline is not easy to apply.

>Naturally, we can't give into everything, and we don't, but how do you draw
>the line?  When is it ok to say, "OK, you win" ??

More on your terminology later, but I think that the answer to the question
is:

     -    when the issue is not important; that is if any bad consequences
          that might come out of letting him do what he wants are not
          serious; or maybe another way of putting it is when the issue's
          importance to him greatly exceeds the importance to you (apart from
          the "control" issue).

     -    when he makes a reasonable point;

     -    when he presents his reasonable point in a reasonable way.  (note to
	  .6 -- note that the "ask nicely" is but one of three requirements.  
	  If you ask nicely, the answer MAY be yes, but if you don't ask 
	  nicely, the answer WILL be no.  And you have the right to say, 
	  "That's final, please drop the discussion."  

     Now, for the terminology.  I had a therapist once say to me (I think he
may have been quoting Theodore Dreikurs) "If you look on it as a win-lose
situation, you've already lost."  It sounds like this is your husband's
problem more so than yours, but I urge you to try not to look at it this way.

     As for when you give in, I think it's somewhere between you and your
husband.  If you give in to _all_ the "small issues", you encourage you son
to challenge you on all issues, and it will be more difficult when the "big
issues" come up.  And remember, how you, your husband, and you son define a
"big issue" may be quite different.

     Also, I agree, it's important to pick your fights, and in the case of
fights you choose not to have to provide an out for both of you, so that it
does not appear that either of you is "giving in."  

     If you _never_ give in, you encourage rebellion later, when he discovers
that there are things that you can't MAKE him do.  You also teach him that
being civil, respectful, and logical don't get him anywhere, so he might as
well be uncivil, disrespectful, and illogical.  You teach him that his
parents don't care what his point of view is.  You cut off communications.

     I also believe that you have the right to say "Because I say so" or its
equivalent; that right is quite strong now, and diminishes with age.  But
with that right comes the responsibility to be reasonable.

     Once again, easy to say, but oh so hard to do.
    
Clay

My mother raised eight children and, since I was one of the oldest, I was able
to both experience and observe her very effective way of both giving in and
saying "no".

She didn't treat us all eaqually, she treated us as individuals.  We were 
allowed more freedom as individuals when we showed that we could be trusted.

From the _earliest_ age, there were nuances to my mother's "no".  If the answer
was no the first time, I think we all felt that we could present a reasonable
argument.  If my mother's no was a firm decision which she was really unlikely
to ever change, the firmness of her "no" increased until we got to the "the
answer is absolutely no and if you ask me once more you are in big trouble."
point.  The learned behavior was to see the difference between no's which could
be discussed and those which couldn't.  The ones that could were usually due
to somebody trying something the first time for which my mother had no esta-
blished precedent.

This is even how she treated the babies.  And there was little or no raising of
voices.  She was very flexible outside of a few rules which were NEVER allowed
to be broken (no damaging each other, etc.).

Concerning the "rebellion" point.  I reached this at 12 years old when I had a
club meeting to go to and I wanted to do something else.  Mom said no, I tried
to discuss, I became irrational.  Mom couldn't make me go to the meeting but
she did stop me from doing what I wanted to do.  After that she didn't try to
dictate my social activities.  I think she was great at being able to determine 
when she had influence over us and when we'd "announced" our independence.

Wish I were as successful as my mother ;-)

Cheryl

    My almost 3.5 years old son is one of the best negotiator that
    I have ever known.  When he asks for something, if the answer is no,
    he will always try to talk us out of the decision.  The coversation
    usually goes like this:
    
    Eric: "Mommy, Can I have 2 cookies?"
    Mom: "No"
    Eric: "How about 1 cookie?"
    Mom: "No"
    Eric: "Why?"
    Mom: "Because we are about to have dinner, and you can not have
          cookies right before meals"
    Eric: "If you give me the cookie, I will still eat the dinner"
    Mom: "No"
    Eric: "Ok, I won't eat the dinner"
    Mom: "Fine, but you still won't get the cookies"
    
    Most of the time, he will give in.  Because, he knows if he eats
    a good dinner, he will get cookies afterward.  Sometimes, he will
    throw a tantrum, I will just walk away.
    
    The conversation changes if my husband is involved:
    
    Eric: "Mommy, can I have 2 cookies?"
    Mom: "No"
    Eric: "But Daddy says yes"
    Mom (after verify with Dad): "Ok, you can have cookies, but only
    1 cookie, since we are about to have dinner"
    
    My husband and I always keep each others promises.  Fortunately,
    we are pretty united on most of the issues.
    
    Wendy

I'd like to reply to some of the earlier responses:

    Re: .6
>>    Does your son now think that everytime you say "no" he has even the
>>    slightest chance of you changing your minds? How do you help your child
>>    understand the difference between a real "no" and a "maybe no?" How
>>    does he react when you do stick by your guns--does he then throw a
>>    tantrum?
Of course he doesn't think "No" always means maybe.  I think Clay (.9) summed
up nicely what I was trying to say.  The idea is to TEACH him negotiation 
skills, which are critical to success in today's world.  By teaching him "You
will never get your way if you fuss" I am breaking him of the habit of crying
and screaming everytime he doesn't get his way, and to give reasoning a try.
Therefore, even when I stick to my guns and he doesn't get his way, tantrums
don't seem to happen as offen.  Yes, he still DOES get them sometimes and we
have to deal with them, mostly by trying to ignore them.  But we've only been 
working on this for about a month or so.  
>>    When I first read your reply, I thought it was a terrific idea for
>>    avoiding tantrums, which my 3.9-year-old daughter is an expert at
>>    doing. Although this method may do that, albeit temporarily, I'm not sure
>>    if it can be a long-term solution, or if the child would always think
>>    he or she has a chance of changing someone's mind, be it a parent,
>>    teacher, babysitter, or friend. Would pleading (O.K., reasoning) until
>>    the parent/teacher/babysitter etc. gives in out of frustration be any
>>    better?
Who said anything about "pleading until the parent/teacher/babysiter etc. gives
in out of shear frustration"??? That would be a big mistake and undermine 
everything I was trying to accomplish.  Negotiation skills include knowing WHEN
to back down when it's obvious you can't win.  Like .10 said, usually the tone
of voice can convey when "no" really means NO.

RE. .6
>>    I'm not sure with us it's an issue of changing our minds, but
>>    more of not wanting an argument over so many issues!  I guess
>>    we need to know when to give in to avoid an argument and the
>>    tears and when it's important for us to stick by our guns.
I agree with many of the previous responses.  Give choices whenever possible
to avoid the arguments in the first place.

� �ori �

    Thanks for all the replies, and just to clarify on the 
    terminology issue, neither one of uses the phrases
    "you win" or "I give in" with our son, when in reality
    that is what it feels like we are doing ..
    
    Nancy

    What an interesting discussion. I'm sure all parents struggle
    with these questions of everyday control issues. I think Clay
    (in .9) expressed the options very well.
    
    Our daughter Sarah is now coming up to two and a half, and is
    really starting to stretch her wings. I'm sure a two year old
    is much less sophisticated at argument than a child in the threes,
    so it may not be much of a comparison. I just wanted to add
    the observation that Sarah *very clearly* states her independence
    just for the sake of exercizing that independence. She argues,
    dissagrees, or simply yells "No", "Don't Like It!" or that sort
    of thing, just because it's a newly found skill. She often
    doesn't know what she is refusing. She just wants to refuse.
    If I can keep in mind that toddlers are meant to do this --
    that it's their developmental stage, and one which allows
    them to define themselves as individuals, I can (sometimes)
    laugh it off.
    
    Also, I am just starting to understand the idea that *control*
    is a major issue for many adults, going back to their childhoods.
    There is a whole line of therapy ("codependency" therapy, the hot new word) 
    which addresses the lack of control and respect allowed to children within  
    "disfunctional" families. There are volumes written on the subject, 
    and I'm not at all educated in it, so I can't explain much further. 
    It just strikes me that control plays such an important part
    in our developmental health, and without a feeling of control
    in our childhoods, we continue to struggle for it as adults.
    
    -Barbara C.   

    I agree with all the people who view this phase as a "learning
    negotiation skills" phase.  It was very frustrating for me when
    I seemed to argue with my daughter over every little thing.  She
    did grow out of it, but we both learned to respect each others'
    opinions and preferences.
    
    One thing I learned early on is not to let it get to the "loud-
    voice-argument" point, but to keep it to a discussion.  This was
    hard to do, but it helped to keep both of us calm and the discussions
    to be true negotiations.
    
    As for the cookies discussion, I'd have said, "You can put the 
    cookie next to your plate and have it after you finish your dinner."
    
    This issue isn't about losing parental control, it's about teaching
     a new skill to a person who will need the skill to survive in the
    world.  Accepting "no" for an answer is not a skill a person needs
    when they are looking for a job, negotiating a peace settlement, or
    getting a law through congress!
    
    Diana

>     This issue isn't about losing parental control, it's about teaching
>     a new skill to a person who will need the skill to survive in the
>    world.  Accepting "no" for an answer is not a skill a person needs
>    when they are looking for a job, negotiating a peace settlement, or
>    getting a law through congress!
    
    Aren't there times, though, when being able to accept "no"
    for an answer IS a valuable life skill?  I thought one of the most
    important things we teach our children is that they can't have every
    single thing they want.

<    I thought one of the most
<    important things we teach our children is that they can't have every
<    single thing they want.

Quite true, but at the same time, they shouldn't always lose, which is what
the basenoter's situation was sounding like to me.

Our house has struggled with this issue, too, whereas Shellie was always
the one afraid of "losing".  We worked a long time on this before things
settled down.  Now we are working on teaching Evan to *calmly* express his
disagreement.  He is doing that more and more.

This whole parenting thing is very frustrating sometimes, but very interesting
to me.  We have learned so much good and so much bad from our parents, and
it is hard sometimes to think out how we *really* want to act, without just 
reacting to the circumstance in the way that our parents would.  When faced
with new experiences all of the time, it can be hard to plan out what to do.

Makes me appreciate this notesfile more and more, though.  It is *so*
helpful to see others going through things that I go through, and to hear
such good advice as I see here!  :-)

       Carol

re: .16

>>    . . .Accepting "no" for an answer is not a skill a person needs
>>    when they are looking for a job, negotiating a peace settlement, or
>>    getting a law through congress!
    
>    Aren't there times, though, when being able to accept "no"
>    for an answer IS a valuable life skill?  I thought one of the most
>    important things we teach our children is that they can't have every
>    single thing they want.

	Give me the serenity to accept that which I must accept;
	The courage to change that which I must change;
	And the wisdom to know the difference.

Quoted so often that I fear it is a cliche, but it's still true.  

Clay

    It is true that children must learn that they can't have everything
    that they want.  But questioning the reason that they can't have
    everything they want should be an acceptable behavior.  Children
    need to learn differentiate when "no" is a reasonable answer and
    when it is a negotiable answer.  Unfortunately, it means that we
    as parents must go through the phase of answering their million,
    "But why can't I?" questions.
    
    After a while, my daughter did learn that my answers ("you'll spoil
    your dinner") was usually reasonable and unquestionable.  She also
    learned that sometimes my answer was really a "not now" kind of "no."
    An explanation didn't frustrate her as much as a point-blank "no!"
    
    At any rate, the phase did pass.  I didn't lose control of my
    parenting authority -- in fact, I think I have more authority now.
    
    Diana

    Yes, I agree.  I have absolutely no problem with Marc asking me why
    not.  In fact, I prefer him to understand the reasons for things, so
    lots of times I'll tell him why the answer is no before he even asks. 
    (Actually, at just over 2, I don't think he even knows the word "why"
    yet.  I think I've only heard him say it once, and I'm not sure he knew
    what he was saying.  But I'm sure it's not far off!)

    I'm middle-of-the-road on being required by a 6-year-old to "explain
    myself."  Yes, I offer explanations as often as I can, especially when
    I think they'll make sense to her (not in the adult realm of
    metaphysical musings, in other words)--but there are definite
    situations where explanations are contraindicated.  Alex will try to
    string out an argument until I hit exhaustion by whining "but whyyyyy,"
    when what she's trying to get is a second dessert and we BOTH know the
    reason.  Or, if we're shopping for clothes with a friend who buys something
    godawful for HER daughter, I don't consider it necessary to give Alex
    my *reason* for not buying her sequins, fishnet and black vinyl!  At
    least not then and there; at home I can remove it from the personal
    (so the message isn't "Suzi's mom has NO TASTE!") and make it a
    discussion of which fabrics/designs I think are appropriate for kids.
    
    Leslie    

    I'd like to offer a suggestion for parents of toddlers/pre-schoolers
    who are arguing. This seems to be working for me. When Justine is
    questioning a decision, such as "let's get cloths on" or "time for
    bed". I give her a couple of warnings then I proceed with business. 
    If it's bedtime, I gather her stuffed toys up and head upstairs and
    she invariably does the "wait for me" routine. Same with getting
    dressed for the sitters, if she's not cooperating, I pick up her 
    cloths and head downstairs.
    
    So far it's working great, knock on wood.
    
    Jan

    For me, the issue of control is that in the end I have to let go
    of all of it.  They're going to grow up and leave home and they
    don't ever again have to pay attention to a single thing I've ever
    said to them.  I can hope that they'll love and respect me enough
    to listen to the things I've taught them about living right and
    living well, but that's love, not control.
    
    We've always let the kids make most decisions about their person
    and personal life -- what to wear, what kind of haircut to get, 
    whether to do their homework after school or after supper, whether
    to take piano lessons, what kind of books to read, etc.  
    
    We try to save the confrontations for the important things, things
    that affect health and safety.  And I've been astonished over the
    years at how many things I was convinced were both immoral and
    unhealthy turned out to be just the way I was raised.  Like
    insisting that Steven wear a hat to school.  
    
    Neil asked me, "Did you wear a hat to school when you were his
    age?"
    
    "Yes, my mother made me."  Pause.  "I took it off as soon as I was
    out of sight of the house, and put it back on on the way home."
    
    "Did you die of pneumonia?"
    
    "No, I didn't even have colds very often."
    
    "Neither did I."  
    
    And so I quit telling Steven to wear a hat every morning -- and
    the funny thing was, as soon as I stopped, he started faithfully
    grabbing a hat on the way out the door!
    
    The same thing is true with Kat.  She's almost 18, responsible
    and level-headed, so she's got a 1:00 a.m. curfew even on school
    nights, and we often let her take the car over to her boyfriend's. 
    Most nights she's home and in bed by 10. . .  
    
    I think of it this way.  At 18 they're going to need to be ready
    to leave home and take over complete responsibility for every
    aspect of their lives, from studying and eating to keeping a dorm
    room or apartment clean to choosing friends and deciding whether
    to go out for pizza or stay home and do the laundry.  That means
    they need to know how to do the laundry, keep a budget, manage
    their daily schedule, etc.  And those tasks in turn are made up of
    a thousand smaller choices and responsibilities.  Letting the
    toddler choose his own shirt is just another step in developing
    all the skills of choosing his life. 
    
    
    --bonnie
    
    

    Well this topic sure came up at a good time!!  My 3.9 year old (Jason)
    has been driving us bonkers lately .... EVERYthing is an argument with
    him.  JUST for the sake of arguing.  Ask him anything, and he'll try to
    fight you on it.
    
    Are other people's kids this bad??  I wouldn't have a hard time
    disciplining him, except that he's **SO** sensitive, fragile. 
    Yesterday he was being rotten beyond all belief, beating up his (older)
    brother, yelling at me, wouldn't do a single thing I told him to do
    etc etc.  I said to him "Jason, if you don't start acting nice soon,
    I'm going to take all your Christmas presents back to the store!" (I
    was at my wit's end!).  Last night around 2:00am, he woke up screaming
    crying in the midst of a night terror, yelling at me that I was a "bad
    mommy", crying that I had hurt his feelings, I tried to tell him I
    loved him, and hold him - he wouldn't let me near him, and everytime I
    said I Love You, he'd scream NO! and kick and cry louder ... come to
    find out, because I told him I was going to take his toys back...!
    
    I just don't know how to deal with him.  I don't want to hurt him like
    that, but I feel like I've lost 'control' of him, in that he doesn't
    feel like he has to do *ANYTHING* I tell him.  No amount of punishment
    or hugs or anything I've tried seems to make a difference. 
    
    Any hints??  
    
    THANKS!
    Patty
    
    ....gee, my first was an angel compared to this!!

    Well, one of the things my kids taught me was not to ever threaten
    a punishment I wasn't willing to carry out.  It backfired on me
    every time.  If it was dire enough it got them to do what I wanted
    at the time, but in the long run it only made them resent me, and
    eventually when they called my bluff they found out I wouldn't
    really do something too mean, and then it didn't have any force at
    all.  I was teaching them they didn't have to listen to me.  
    
    Another thing they taught me was that it's important that the
    punishment be an appropriate consequence of the behavior. Taking
    away their favorite toy because they were throwing food at the
    wall didn't teach them not to throw food at the wall because they
    didn't connect the consequences with the behavior.  Having to get
    down and be hungry for a couple of hours, until the next meal, was
    a lot more direct connection.  Would you believe ALL THREE of them
    did that one to me before I figured it out????
    
    --bonnie

A few notes earlier (.19) someone suggested that "no" often means "not now".
It reminds me of something I read somewhere that further translates the phrase
into "yes, later".

A lot of the questions kids ask can be answered more positively than our
initial first response.  In answer to a cookie before dinner, a cheerful
"sure, right after dinner we'll have some" or "how many shall I get ready for
you?"  (followed by a surprised "OH!  you wanted it now?!  We can't do that! 
But help me figure out some minute detail for right after dinner.") Or, after
persistent needling, "ok, if you really want something before dinner you
could have a pickle, a piece of cheese, or __kid's_healthy_favorite__."

"gee, what a __superlative__ idea! <pause> except...." can be substituted
liberally, and if we acknowledge their thoughts before declining, they may be
less persistent.  In response to wanting something outrageous (like a t-shirt
in the winter, a birthday today, or staying home on a weekday) try "gee,
what a...etc, But then what about __offbeat_reason_why_it_can't_be___?"  Let
them work it out with you.  Or lead them through a fantasy of what it would be
like.  If it's not such an outrageous request but still warrants a no, try
"gee,...etc, how about if we do that tonight" and immediately help redirect
their thoughts toward planning the event.  It gives them some control &
sidetracks their nagging with more interesting thoughts.

Younger children are much more apt to take on a power struggle with their
parents than with LIFE.  (Too big & unknown).  If a conflict is presented as
"that's what happens in life" vs "because I say so", it may generate less
argument.  This got us through the early two's, I'm almost ashamed to admit!
I took advantage of the times when I could get away with things like "You want
to go to bed without taking a bath?!  Think of how stinky you'd be...we
couldn't do that!"  Ack! that's LIFE!  case closed.

As far as getting kids to do things, give them control (nothing original
here).  It's amazing what a difference in response we get when we ask Marich
(3yrs) how many minutes until he's ready to take a bath (it's usually downhill
from there, fortunately :-)  If he has some control, he's quite reasonable. 
But even the most cheerful "It's time to take a bath!" generates a resounding
"NO!"  And when we've reached our limit, we tell him that we've waited long
enough - we're going to do other things & he'll have to put himself to bed. 
That gets him in a hurry, cause we've done it before & ignored him long enough
to leave an impression that we mean it. (Funny how independent they want to
be...until it's dumped on them!)

Of course as they turn 3-4 this all becomes less effective - that's when all
their effort goes into sharpening their bargaining skills :-)  But I think
positive, upbeat, non-confrontational responses really help them gain a sense
of self worth (their ideas are fine, but just not under the circumstances).
And the good news is that it's not all that hard to do.  The catch is that it
doesn't always work.  But that doesn't matter, it's still fun just to relax a
bit & appreciate our kids & their ideas!

...Rita

    I'm convinced that my girls do all of their arguing with their parents,
    because their teachers and day care people say they are always
    cooperative, the first to help clean up, the first to get in line, etc.
    They are always getting stickers or other little rewards for good
    behavior. So why does my 6-yr old still stomp her feet and furiously
    maintain that I'm a mean mommy (because she couldn't have coke at
    dinner, it's time for bed, or whatever)? And that we all hate her? 
    
    Because she's a gutsy, smart little tyke! Who most of the time is sweet
    and cooperative. When she was two and again at four (there's something
    about those even-numbered years!), I had to remind myself that she
    wasn't stubborn, she just persevered! 
    
    How do we handle it? Well, when she yells at me that I'm being unfair
    (for having to take a bath or whatever), I usually just send her to her
    room, where there are stuffed animals, coloring stuff and books, but no
    TV and no radio. In other words, she's by herself and it calms her
    down. She usually emerges from her room subdued after a tantrum and
    quite sweet. Then we exchange a few words about how yelling just makes
    us tired. 
    
    My dad has a saying, "Don't sweat the small stuff." And all kids have
    different personalities. My 9-yr old perseveres, but in a much more
    pleasant way. She is more laid back than her little sister, but she
    manages to get her way often enough. Maybe she was born with better
    inate negotiation skills, and her little sister is going to learn the
    hard way!
    
    It's always a challenge, but it DOES get easier because you can reason
    with your kids as they get older. Usually.
    
    

    RE: .27
    
    Literally *everything* you wrote could have been written by me!
    
    I have a 6 year old that sounds exactly like yours.  Great at
    school and daycare, demanding and persecuted (her view) at home.
    
    One thing she is learning (usually the hard way) is that if I
    tell her it's bath time, and she gets sassy and rude about it,
    she loses a privilige.  With each tantrum, she loses another.
    I will go on until there is nothing left to take away and 
    she will *still* have to take her bath.  I tell her it's HER
    choice.  She can take a bath now and keep all of her privileges
    intact or she can take it later (losing something if not every-
    thing along the way).  They're smart, it doesn't take them long  
    to figure this one out. 
    
    I also like to 'catch' her doing something right.  This morning
    for instance, Amber was easy to get off to school.  She was pleasant
    and she picked out her outfit without being harrassed.  I grabbed
    her, hugged her tightly and thanked her for her sensibility. Mornings
    are tough enough for me without difficult children. I let her know
    how much the whole family appreciates a smooth running household.  
    
    Jodi-
    

    I will always remember the expereince of a good friend of mine with her
    daughter.  The daughter was extremely rebellious as a young teenager,
    constantly told her mother off etc.
    
    What the mother was told is that when children act this way, they do it
    with the people with whom they feel the most safe.  They know that no
    matter how badly they behave the love will remain. 
    
    A very positive spin on a tough situation.
     

Re. .29

Mark will, when he is angry, say awful things to me.  He hates me.  He wishes
I had to go back to the hospital (I've had several painful operations).  He
takes back gifts he has given me.  He never does this to his father.

But...  he never doubts that I love him.  He sometimes, when he feels really
sorry for himself, doubts that papa or grandma or his brother love him but
never me.  And when he asks if I love him, I can never tease him about it.
Mommy's love has to be unconditional.  It is rather like the proverbial rock in 
the storm.

Later, when he is finished being angry with me, he will tell me he really didn't
mean it (whatever it is).  He has a lot harder time apologizing to his dad.

Geesh... kid's psychology!

ccb

    I think kids also need a place where they can "let it all hang out",
    which usually home.  I know my kids are absolute angels when they are
    at daycare or at grandparents.  It must be hard trying to be good all
    of the time.  Home should be where you know you will be loved and can
    let things go and relax a little bit.  But maybe that's just the way
    I view home.  I know I don't like to work from home because it is sort
    of my haven away from work.  I also always preferred to study at the
    library rather than at home.
    
    Karin