Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Clay,
    
    I'm definitely NOT looking for legal advise here, although I'm sure
    that the gastro doctor is scared to death and is trying to cover his
    *ss by making sure the "problem" goes away.
    
    Just want to know if anyone's heard of a similar situation.  I'd walk
    to the end of the world and back for her and want to give her 100% of
    my support.
    
    Susan

That would be my take too.  I hope the gastro...'s alarm is unfounded and
that your friend will carry and deliver a healthy son or daughter.  I am 
surprised that these people took so lightly the possibility that she might
be pregnant.  Hope everything turns out alright.

Leslie

    I have no words of advice, but do offer this encouragement...
    
    A friend was told by her OB/GYN that her pregnancy so close to her
    rhubella vaccination would cause damage to the fetus and he recommended
    she abort immediately.   It was not something she could do and today
    she has a very healthy, intelligent, and wonderful 9 year old daughter!
    
    Get all the facts you can and work closely with your OB, but the final
    say in definately YOURS!!  Put your faith and trust where it belongs!
    
    -sandy
    
    

    I think it's time to step back and look at this in a more even
    keeled light ...
    
    In the 1950s and 60s when Ultrasound was not available, it was not
    uncommon to X-ray pregnant women to determine some of the info they
    now get proabbly more safely from Ultrasound.  A lot of women were
    x-rayed several times.  The x-ray films and machines used then
    generally required much higher doses of x-rays to produce readable
    x-ray pictures than are used today.
    
    Remember too that airplane flights also subject the body to significant
    doses of radiation, and pregnant women do routinely fly.
    
    There are no openly published reports of a direct connection between
    normal x-rays and preganancy problems and between radiation from
    flying and pregnancy probblems.
    
    That's not to say that these problems don't exist ... but the fear
    is bases highly conservatively on safety ... especially for doctors
    in fear of malpractice.
    
    So, if it were my wife and I, we'd be concerned but, not alarmed.
    We certainly wouldn't terminate based on this info.  I suspect that
    if there are major problems in utero it would likely miscarry given
    that it is so early in the pregnancy.  As to later cancers, well,
    that's something that the parents will have to keep an eye open
    for symptoms for a good few years, but again, I wouldn't be alarmist
    about it.  Concern yes, worry, no.
    
    I'd probably put my trust in the ob/gyn, tell the gi specialist to
    take a hike and find a new one.  I wouldn't be even thinking about
    lawsuits -- but then I don't believe in them anyway ... 
    
    Stuart

AS A MODERATOR

I'm sure that many of you had the same initial reaction as I did -- to flame 
one or more of the doctors and advise the noter's friend to sue the gastro.  
But while it's OK to advise her to see an attorney, we don't have
all the facts.  So please don't speculate on (potential) legal liability of 
any of the parties.

Clay Satow
co-mod

AS A NOTER 


>So, now she's got 3 varying opinions:  minimal risk (radiology), concern and
>consideration of the "options" (her ob/gyn) and termination (gastro).  She's a
>nervous wreck and doesn't have a clue of which way to turn.  As soon as the
>dosage results are back she'll be seeing a geneticist and making her decisions
>based upon that.

	The opinions are very understandable, based on what the 
	parties stand to gain or lose.  I think that seeing the 
	genetecist and then making her decision based on that is
	the right course of action.  I would take the ob/gyn's 
	advice more seriously than the others.

	She should also get another gastroenterologist, should
	the symptoms persist.  Her relationship with her current
	gastro is very tainted now.

	While I hope and pray that it will not be necessary, she
	should consult an attorney.  But right now, I think the
	emphasis should be on support for her in what must be a 
	very trying situation.  She seems to be on the right track,
	and it seems to me that support is far more important than
	advice right now.

Clay

    
    >>I wouldn't be even thinking about
    >>lawsuits -- but then I don't believe in them anyway ... 
    
    I have to agree; a lawsuit is an even more stressful thing to go
    through on top of being concerned as she is with the potential
    health problems of her child. I'd trust in the ob/gyn (provided this
    physician has a good relationship with the mother-to-be) and with
    all the facts the ob will have the most educated judgement on
    the risks to mother and child. 
    
    Good luck and our best wishes!
    
    Monica
    
    

Why did she bother calling the gastroenterologist about it in the first
place?

The radiology department is presumably expert in the administritation of
X-rays, and can be presumed to have some expertise in their risks.

The ob/gyn presumably is experienced in issues of what is and isn't risky
to a pregnant woman (but I'd still expect the radiologist's expertise to
be more relevant here).

But what sort of expertise does the gastroenterologist have that should
make him specially qualified to give advice about the risks of X-rays
to pregnant women?  It seems to me that she might as well have asked
her mailman or grocery clerk.

(I'm a programmer -- but that doesn't mean that I'll be able to help you if 
you come to me for advice on algorithms for doing a Fast Fourier Transform.)

	-Neil

re: .7

Interesting point, Neil.

Which brings up another question.  If a gastroenterologist has no particular 
expertise on the risks of x-rays to pregnant women, why did he proceed to give 
her advice?  Particularly on whether she should or should not get an abortion.

IMO, the relevance to the base note is this:  Of all the advice/feedback she 
has gotten so far, the gastro's input is the LEAST valid.  Thus she is left 
with a(n understandably) concerned, but not panicked OB/GYN, a radiology 
department that believes there is little danger, but is collecting more 
information, and a geneticist that doesn't have the facts yet.  So among the 
qualified opinions, there is concern, but no alarm yet, which seems to me 
quite proper under the circumstances.  

An interesting sidelight is this.  My wife went in for the exact same 
procedure for the exact same reason.  The x-ray technician asked her if she 
was positive that she was not pregnant.  Now, our children are 8 and 11, and 
we have no plans to have any more, and my wife believed that she was not 
pregnant.  But she was not sure enough for them, so they refused to do the 
procedure.

Clay

Interesting.  My wife went to the dentist for a checkup.  Before giving
her bite-wing X-rays, they asked her if she was pregnant.  Since she didn't
know for sure, they had her come back when she had her period.

    What .8 and .9 are actually confirming is that everyone is being
    far more careful about X-rays than they ever have been in the past.

    That doesn't say it's actually a problem, but the doctor and dentist
    don't want to be party to a potential problem, and with the almost
    constant threats of malpractice hanging over most doctors heads these
    days, they'd rather stay 10 miles from it.  Who can blame them?

    When we came to Canada, Jane had to have a chest x-ray for canadian
    immigration.  She was pregnant.  We enquired of 2 doctors who were
    on a list to do the rest of the required medical.  The nurse at the
    one doctors office thought we were absolutely off our rockers to even
    contmplate having an X-ray.  The other wasn't too concerned except
    to say ensure that you are screened.  I ended up speaking with the head
    gynecologist at the local large hospital.  He gave me the information
    that I relayed in an earlier note.  We went ahead and had it done and
    we don't know of any problems with our now 10 year old daughter.  (Unless 
    that's why she still has an aversion to cleaning up messes she leaves 
    behind her!!!!!).

    What was hard to understand was the wide difference in medical opinion.

    As Monica implied ... worrying about it all could actually be more
    harmful because of high adrenalin levels, lack of sleep from worry etc,
    than the actual x-rays themselves!

    Stuart
    

    My mother had a few chest X-Rays while she was in the early stages
    of pregnancy with me.   At the time she did not know until afterwards
    that she was pregnant.   The only problem I had was I was born
    with a lump on my rectum, which kept growing, the doctors removed 
    it.   That was 33 years ago, as a previous noter states, in the
    past higher doses of radiation were used than is now.
    
    I hope everything works out for your friend.
    
    
    Rgds.,
    
    Bernie

    Bernie;
      was your problem at birth attributed to the xrays? This may
    have been coincidence.
    
      BTW I too was unsure whether I was pregnant when I went to the
    dentist last. And yes, they said come back if you get your period,
    if not, we can hold off the proposed dental work until next year.
      (sure enough, I am).
    
    Monica
    

    I would also strongly recommend that your friend work with the OB/GYN
    and take his advice to find a geneticist and get a knowledgeable
    opinion.  Perhaps the solution is Amnio at the time when that is
    feasible to verify  whether any damage has in fact been done.  Then
    at least she will have all the facts available and won't have to work
    from emotion.

    Monica,
    
    Yes, according to my mother, the lump was caused by the x-rays.
    
    
    
    Bernie
    

    Quick update:
    
    I spoke with my friends last night.  They have an appointment with the
    geneticist on Monday.  Her ob/gyn is doing an ultrasound this Thursday
    in hopes of being able to determine exactly how far along she is which
    is information that the geneticist needs.  She also spoke with a doctor
    (courtesy of the Pregnancy Hotline) who has written several papers on
    the effects of radiation on pregnant women and received positive
    feedback from him as they discussed her situation.  Hopefully, the
    dosage results will be back today or tomorrow and they will will be
    encouraging.
    
    Meanwhile, they sound much more positive and are taking this as "We'll
    worry and be upset when and if we have to, but right now we're pregnant
    and thrilled."
    
    Thanks for all the info and support, I'll write in an update when I
    have more.
    
    Susan 

    Forgive my ignorance on this one, but I was of the understanding that
    effects of radiation take several years to manifest themselves, am I
    wrong?  Isn't it usually Lukemia or other blood disorder that comes
    from excessive radiation exposure?
    
    Realisticly, though I would tend to say that your friend probably
    didn't have enough radiation to affect the baby.  My experience is the
    radiologist is *usually* very careful to shield both male and female
    reproductive areas.  Almost everyone of AJ's xrays from birth have a
    small triangle area over his genitals, which is where the shield was
    placed for the xray.  He certainly wasn't old enough to father anything
    at 12 hours old!
    
    I have been asked to leave an Xray room, when accompanying him more
    than once.  Just because I absolutely knew I was late due to tension,
    not pregnancy, but NO technitian will accept that excuse.  If I do stay
    I am required to wear a full lead xray apron that wraps completely
    around me.
    
    Lyn

    Hi,
    
    I was involved in a car accident at 5 1/2 months of pregnancy and told
    the technician, she called my ob/gyn and said go ahead with the x-rays.
    
    I gave birth to a healthy, happy baby boy 7 years ago and nothing seems
    to be wrong with him.  Just a normal boy for his age.
    
    I hope that things will go well for your friends.  Keep us posted.
    
    Cindy
    

    Well, they got the dosage results back yesterday.  It looks
    encouraging, the report said that based upon the xray plates and lots
    of other factors, including things like maintainence records of the
    equipment over the past year, etc, that her dosage was somewhere in the
    range of 1.2 to 1.4 rads.
    
    So now they are off to the geneticist feeling much more positive.
    
    Thanks,
    Susan

I just spoke to a friend whose wife fell down a hole when a grating gave way
when she was six months pregnant.  The sack tore awauy from the womb and she 
had internal bleeding.  She also damaged her knee which was subsequently
operated.  She had extensive x-rays directly on the baby and surrounding
areas.  She had to spend three months in complete bed rest and take medication 
to stop the contractions but delivered a health full term baby boy (by caesarian
section) who is now one year old and the delight of both parents.

Concern: yes, worry:no.

ccb

    Hi,
    
    I was happy to see this entry on radiation because I have been
    concerned about the amount of radiation that is emitted from my
    workstation. I am working on this 8 hrs a day, 40 hours a week and it
    has crossed my mind more than once that this may be affecting my baby.
    I am 14 weeks pregnant. Does anyone have any info on this? I really
    appreciate it.
    
    Thanks,
    Cindy

    
    I don't have any facts about this, just my personal experience.
    I also worked at my workstation the entire time I was pregnant (except
    for meeting times I guess :-) and everything was fine.  
    
    Does anyone have information about this danger?
    
    Bev

    I do recall that this was discussed in another note here, including
    a nice lengthy discussion by Stuart. Sorry I cannot recall where.
    
    Monica
    

I was concerned about this too when I found out that I was pregnant.  
I have read a lot about this.  Everything I have read indicates that 
there are NO known problems that occur when you work even 40 hours per
week in front of a work station.  It is suggested that you do not 
stand behind a terminal/work station if possible, because if there were 
any risk it would be greater from the back of the terminal.

    I just got off the phone with my friend; she had her geneticist
    appointment this morning and all looks good.  He had ALL her files
    there, from gastroenterologist to gynecologist to radiology, and he
    said that, basically, 10 rads of exposure is an extremely conservative
    number and that if she had been exposed to 10 rads he wouldn't have
    recommended termination.  But, she since she was exposed to 1.2 to 1.4
    rads he feels strongly that everything is fine, usually, if the fetus
    has been negatively affected it will terminate itself.  She said he spent 
    alot of time talking with her and she felt comfortable with him and
    confident in his diagnosis. He did suggest a 2nd ultra sound at 16
    weeks to double check.
    
    So, all systems are go for them (yippee!!!) and now we're trying to
    plan how we can have these babies on the same day since we're due 3
    days apart!
    
    Thanks for all the help, it's been appreciated by all.
    
    Susan
    
    

    re: .21, .22, .23
    
    Thank you for your notes of encouragement.  I still would like to find
    definite stats on studies performed - so if you can recall that note I
    would be very grateful. 
    
    Thanks again everyone,
    
    Cindy  
    

When I was pregnant with my daughter I too was concerned about sitting in front 
of a terminal all day.  I have no facts about exposure levels; I can only
relay what I did for my own "peace of mind."  At first I borrowed an x-ray 
technician-type lead apron from my sister-in-law.  Her father (a heart 
surgeon) got it for her since during all three of her pregnancies she has 
worked in his office at a computer terminal one day a week.  Boy, was that 
thing HEAVY!  After a while I would take it off and just drape it over my 
stomach (which was still its normal size - I wasn't 'showing' yet), and 
just lifted it off whenever I had to leave my desk.  Well, even THAT was a 
hassle.  Then I found a special anti-glare screen which mounts on the front of
the terminal. It was advertised as the best filter for VDTs, but of course 
it stated that there were no standards yet established for how much 
radiation is OK.  Even so, I bought it - and it was megabucks!  ($200)  But 
you know how it is ... protecting the baby is all you think about for nine 
months ... so, was this over-kill?  Probably, but oh well.  I now use it on 
my computer at home.


Susan

    Ummmmm
    
    definite stats ???
    
    Everything I've read so far has come to only 1 definite answer
    
    "It is inconclusive that the electromagnetic radiation from a
    CRT has an effect on preganancies"
    
       to paraphrase.
    
    They usually come with comments to the effect that other environmental
    considerations, such as sitting long hours and job stress could have
    as large an impact, if not more, that the em radiation.
    
    Stuart

I found the following related notes in PARENTING_V2, if anyone is interested
in following this up there:


 368  ANGORA::CATT          4-MAR-1988    14  Are LN03's Dangerous to Pregnant
					      Women?
 741  REGENT::WORKMAN      20-OCT-1988     4  Pregnancy and Video Terminals

1018  FRAGLE::KUDLICH      27-FEB-1989    18  Pregnancy and the Cathode Tube

FYI,
Carol

    Might I suggest that you contact the people in EH&S at the HLO facility
    (Hudson MA).  I believe that they and their people were the "guinea
    pigs" used in the radition at the workplace study done a couple years
    ago.  I'm not sure who actually did the study, but I do remember the
    results being published on the channel 4 (WBZ-TV) news during a regular
    broadcast. 
    
    My husband is part of EH&S in another group, and his opinion is that
    the news media made the report sound slightly slanted, towards VTD's
    being a cause of birth defects.(His opinion only, the way it was
    broadcast!)
    
    Personally, as a secretary, I sit in front of the tube sometimes up to
    50 hours a week, I seldom leave my tube even for lunch.  Granted my son
    had a surgically correctable birth defect, but I did ask my OB
    following delivery if this may have been VDT related, he insists it
    wasn't, so I will take his word for it.
    
    Lyn

    With my son, I worked 40 or so hours a week in front of the tube, and
    extra hours at home on it for school. I can't say that it did any
    damage. I had a healthy 7 lb, 11 oz baby boy, who is continuing to
    grow with know problems. I would say the thing that would cause  it
    is all the stress worrying about it. Just relax, enjoy and get up
    to walk around in between and you should be fine.
    
    Sheila
    

    I had a history of miscarriages (unexplained) so I naturally thought of
    all the VDT time.  I don't think I have the papers or references now,
    but I contacted Tom Stockebrand, who was the lead enginering design
    person for videos and he looked into it and assured me that it was
    virtually impossible to get enough radiation to harm things, short of
    standing behind the terminal.  
    
    Other references you might want to poke around at are:  1) There was a
    long article or series in the New York about 2 years ago about
    electromagnetic radiation in general and VDT issues in particular.  It
    was on the side of it being harmful and the truth being hidden; 2)
    There was a fairly recent (last year?) redo of the original studies
    reported in the New England Journal of Medicine (I think).  That said
    that there was no effect.  I think they used ATT operators and did
    double blind studies, etc.  
    
    My bottom line after losing four is that it wasn't due to the VDT. 
    There's so much else that can go wrong and the body does know when to
    end a pregnancy, even if it is painful for the wishful parents.  Take
    it from someone who has been there.