Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Well, for one thing, MSG is monosodium glutamate, which means it's
    a salt.
    
    --bonnie

Well, it's not really a salt, but it does contain sodium, which is what's
in regular salt that's usually a problem.  "Salt" is used for chloride
compounds (and those of similar elemental combinations).

I know that MSG exposure can cause MSG sensitivity in people; it seems to me
that it makes sense to avoid it where you can during pregnancy.  Most
restaurants which use it encourage you to ask to omit it, and more and more
don't use it at all.

			Steve

    A cooking program (The Frugal Gourmet) said MSG is a soybean product,
    and perfectly natural.  For those that are sensitive, avoid it (just
    like avoiding strawberries).

    Its becoming hard for me to stomach preparing food in the kitchen,
    and so going through canned/processed foods in the grocer's I noticed
    that many of them (and I was surprised!) have MSG on the list of 
    ingredients.
    Many chinese food places now advertise no-msg meals or menus. I
    have not read much in the way of warning for pregnant women to
    avoid it, but like everything else, its moderation that should be 
    the rule. 
    
    Monica
    

    I avoided MSG while pregnant, although my midwife didn't say anything
    about it.  I do have one friend who's doctor said *no* MSG while she
    was pregnant.  You might want to check with your doctor.
    
    Mary
    

    MSG (sold as the brand name "Accent") gave me a tremendous, very sudden
    onset headache when I was pregnant.  We had been to one of the Fast
    food joints on Route 9 in Westboro and aparently the lettuce on the
    salad bar was treated with MSG-we think. Perhaps I'm wrong, but isn't that
    the stuff that keeps the lettuce on the salad bar from turning brown?
    
    The pain was so intense that I had to make an emergency call to my
    internist and OB and get a prescription for codein.  I was literally
    holding my head and screaming it was so bad.  I have had salad from
    that place since, non pregnant state, and have had no reaction.
    
    It has been linked to severe headaches, I believe it might constrict
    blood vessles which could cause sever headache.  Seems to me 20/20 or
    60 minutes did a program about hidden MSG and other chemicals in food a
    couple years ago.  The report didn't look pleasant.
    
    Lyn

    I believe that you're referring to sulfites, which is what some
    restaurants use to keep lettuce from browning.
    
    Leslie

    Thanks for the clarification Leslie.  I must have been reacting to the
    sulfites on lettuce.  But have still experience some extremely bad
    headaches after eating chinese food.  Kind of a pressure on my temples,
    and occational light headedness.  I have heard MSG linked to seizures,
    in extreme cases of course, through a couple of my training courses
    with the ambulance service.  Not to start a panic on this, but just
    relating some "advice of the experts".
    
    Lyn
    

    both sufites and MSG have been quite often linked to headaches;
    is something that's on the list of foods that can cause migraines.
    
    Lyn, I am not surprised that you had that headache when you were pregnant
    (although I *REALLY* sympathize with you!), since migraines
    are linked with hormones and their changes in the body, people often
    get, or loose these symptoms after, or during pregnancy. 
    Yes, MSG *IS* a popular cause, although in my case its not something
    that usually triggers them. 
    
    These additives can also cause allergy attacks. 
    
    Monica
    
    

Besides the headaches, sulfites can trigger asthma attacks for those with asthma.

MSG can aggravate Meniere's (sp?) Disease, an inner problem resulting in dizzy
spells.

Jeff Smith frequently comments on the "naturalness" of MSG.  My take on that is
that whiskey is a derivative of grain but one would never assume that has the
same effect as Wheaties.

Dick

    
    Did anyone catch the 60 minutes segment on MSG?
    
    It seems it is connected with severe headaches, wild mood swings,
    etc.  They interviewed one child that was diagnosed as having
    ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder) and in reality it was a reaction
    to MSG...
    
    MSG is labeled and hidden in ingredients, such as:
    
    	Natural Flavors, Accent, Sodium Csomething (can't think of the name)
        and a few other ingredients..i think flavor enhancers...
    
    The products they talked about were like Ric-a-Roni, all campbell's
    soups, gravy mixes, many more, basically, anything with Natural 
    Flavors....I had no idea that MSG was in almost everything.....Many 
    foods have several different resources of MSG within the one item.    
    
    One reason they use it in soup is because it is a flavor enhancer
    and saves the companies money.  Rather than needing 6 chickens for
    chicken stock, they use 1 chicken and 3 lbs of MSG..... yuck!
    
    They were trying to get the FDA to put some kind of regulation
    on the use of MSG or at least the labeling and not have it hidden
    in ingredients the way it is today.
    
    Has anyone ever been tested for MSG reaction?  Chinese food is
    a very minor source of MSG compared to what we eat everyday.
    
    If anyone remembers all the ingredients that contain MSG, please
    post.
     
    What about your kids?  They talked about kids being out of control,
    and dr's were diagnosing other diseases as a result.  One woman
    had severe abdominal pains...they removed her gall bladder and her
    appendix and she still suffered...and it turns out it was a reaction
    to MSG...one kid reads every label of everything looking for hidden
    MSG...
    
    I'm pregnant and it makes me kind of nervous to think that I'm ingesting
    all this MSG when sometime in the 1980's, I think, it was banned
    from baby food because it was unhealthy for children...
                                                        
    Kristen

    I didn't actually see the show, I was doing the pre-bedtime routine. 
    What my husband said to me was something about "fast-food MSG"
    hyperactivity.  I presumed it meant too much McD's Burger King etc.,
    in fact my comment was "he doesn't do the fast food joints often enough
    to cause his kind of hyperactivity.
    
    I don't do much of premade soups, etc.  We give AJ frequent frozen dinner
    during the winter months, usually it's Healthy Choice or Budget Gourmet
    Lite brands, and I can't see MSG listed on those labels anywhere.
    
    Comments??
    
    Lyn

    
    re: frozen dinners
    
    Check for Natural Flavors...if it is listed it contains MSG...
    no telling how much...
    
    As far as fast-food...I don't remember them mentionioning McD's, etc
    at all...
    
    I wish I could remember all the ingredients that contain MSG 
    unknown to the consumer...
    
    Kristen

    "60 Minutes" is a classic muck-raking show: lots of heat, little
    light.  Every week they have to find a villian, no matter how hard
    they have to look or how much they have to distort the evidence.
    
    Don't take them seriously as a source of information--it's just
    an up-market version of 20/20 or Geraldo.
    
    			-John Bishop

    As Kirsten mentioned, there are a number of popular chemical 
    compounds that while listed in the ingredients, never reveal what is 
    in THEM. Now, I feel somewhat ashamed to say that I too forgot most
    of the ones they mentioned (a lot of use I am! ;-) ) 
    
    I think we must keep this report in perspective though, Kirsten I am
    under the impression that this has gotten you quite upset. I do believe
    that 60Minutes' aim it to bring to light things that the general public
    needs to know, or THEY feel the public needs to know. 
    
    I felt uneasy with this segment that while yes, I believe there is
    something to say about seemingly obvious behavioural changes in
    patients who have stopped using MSG in their diets, I STILL felt that
    we weren't getting the whole picture, that the 60Minutes team was
    there to bring the alarmist side of the story, and paint those who
    denied it effects as lying fools. 
    
    Don't let this news freak you out -- we are ALL living in the same
    culture (more or less) and eating much the same foods -- I would think
    that most of the children I know that were born in the last 5 years 
    are healthy and happy, even those whose mothers have had wine, binged
    on junk food, or even most of those whose parents smoke.
    
    Again, I tend to think the jury is still out on this one (but I 
    would sure like better labelling or removal of the stuff too!!!)
    
    Monica,
    Still skeptical (either way)
     

There seems to be some truth to the statement that some people have a reaction,
allergic or otherwise, to MSG.  If you want to see if your child's hyperactivity
is aggravated by MSG, why not eliminate MSG from his diet for a couple of weeks?
It's not that difficult to avoid fast food, TV dinners, packaged soups, and
other foods that are likely to contain MSG.

There are lots of theories about the causes of hyperactivity.  Every once in
a while, some doctor claims that by avoiding some substance, some large number
of people can be "cured."  I rate these doctors slightly above the ones with
miracle cancer cures.

    I had a boss once who mentioned that he couldn't take MSG--had to call
    ahead to Chinese restaurants to be sure they didn't use it, or that
    they would withhold it from a serving on demand.  When I asked "why--
    what happens?" he said he got severe headaches and stomachaches from
    it.  At the time I thought "boy, some people have weird allergies," and
    I also figured there was probably a connection between that
    stereotypical "get stuffed on Chinese food and be hungry an hour later"
    and MSG (the stuffed feeling may really be an MSG reaction).
    
    When Alex and I tried a local Chinese restaurant for the first time,
    then went on to grocery shopping, she complained of a severe
    stomachache (with a 6-year-old's dramatic flair).  I knew immediately
    that this restaurant must have used massive quantities of MSG; I
    explained it to her, wrote that restaurant off our list, watched her
    pretty closely for the evening (tummyache diminished as I expected) and
    concluded that she has a mild reaction to it.
    
    She has no reaction to the MSG in Rice-a-Roni, snack foods, lemon
    pepper seasoning, etc., so I'm not going to drive myself and everyone
    else crazy poring over labels and restricting our diet maniacally. 
    (Which is worse, an MSG tummyache or a Momm who's a major pain?!)
    
    Leslie

    re .-1 
    could Alex's stomachache have been caused by something else in
    that chinese dinner?
    
    A co-worker of mine just spent two amazing years - she first seemed
    to be suffering from incredible fatigue, her daughters as well. 
    To make a long story short, after a lot of self education (on 
    allergys and vitamin defficiencies mostly) and a lot of specialists,
    her diagnosis is Allergies to such things as yeast, as well as 
    lack of many vitamins. One of her daughters also had allergies
    to corn (ANYTHING with cornstarch or cornoil!) and beef! These were
    only diagnosed with a lot of time and effort and many specially
    tailored allergy tests. 
    
    What I am getting at is MSG can be one of SEVERAL things that can
    create discomfort or behavioural modification in a person. I will
    not deny that some DO have to watch for MSG (their task is not 
    easy according to the 60 Minutes report) but they are NOT the only
    ones. My friend tells me that grocery shopping for her and her
    family is quite a drama now. Every label MUST be read. 
    And WHAT could they be missing, even if they are so diligent?
    
    Monica
    

Several studies in Europe have identified strong links between asthma attacks
and large doses of MSG, such as found in some Chinese meals. In several cases
these have been fatal, more often they are temporarily incapacitating. Children
with asthma have been advised by hospitals and by the Asthma society (correct
name escapes me) to avoid MSG.

When I was in Australia for DECUS in 1989 I noticed several Chinese restuarants
with signs in the window saying that no MSG was used in any meals. It appears
that one or two child deaths had been linked with MSG consumption and that there
was a significant loss of trade until they publicly dropped MSG. I didn't notice
the headache I usually associate with eating Chinese, but then I normally have a
drink and it could just be low tolerance to Chinese beer/wine.

Eric

    re .18 -  Monica, yes I'm sure Alex's stomachache could have been
    caused by some other additive, but I do think the odds are
    overwhelmingly in favor of the culprit being MSG.  For one thing, we
    shared the food and I had no reaction; I think I would have shown some
    symptoms if it had been some really bizarre chemical.  I have a cast-
    iron stomach as far as most everyday American chemicals/potent
    peppers/MSG levels go, and I just have a feeling that that restaurant
    shoveled it in.  (It *was* tasty food, and I've found that usually if 
    the stuff is really lip-smackin' good, monosodium glutamate is #2 or 3
    on the label!--either that or garlic  :-D  )
    
    Leslie

re: .19

Some anecdotal, non-scientific, non-medical evidence -- When I am having an 
asthmatic attack, I find that salt (or other high sodium things like soy 
sauce) tend to make that attack worse.  I have a friend, whose wife has severe 
asthma attacks, who claims that there is a definite link between salt intake 
and asthma.

MSG, of course, contains sodium.  

Clay

    I never knew that Rice-a-roni had MSG until near the end of my
    pregnancy. My friend was 3 months behind me and had told me her doctor
    had advised against eating eat since it had MSG. Well, I ate
    Rice-a-roni constantly with my pregnancy, and we had a perfect baby
    boy. No effects there, and I never had any problems with it.
    
    I guess it depends on your body, and what you can take.
    
    Sheila
    

    I happened to write down the list of ingredients that "60 Minutes" said
    can contain MSG:
    
     		Sodium Casseinate
       		Autolyzed Yeast
       		Hydrolyzed Vegetable Protein 
       		Natural Flavors
    
    I am sensitive to MSG -- when I eat something containing it, I get a 
    light-headed tingling feeling. It's frustrating to have it at work,
    because I can't concentrate.  I (and my family) avoid prepared foods, 
    and do most of our cooking from basic ingredients. 
    
    I usually eat a salad at work every day, and choose mostly fresh items
    and just vinegar for dressing. I often top my salad with the
    cafeteria's homemade croutons. One day a couple of weeks ago, I went to
    see the cafeteria manager after lunch -- I had an MSG buzz, and
    suspected the croutons. He said he had made the croutons himself, and
    that they contained only margarine and spices. So we went looking for the
    culprit -- we checked the spice rack (garlic and onion powder -- fine)
    refrigerator (feta cheese -- fine), and the stockroom (olives and sliced
    beets were fine -- but what's this ... the tuna fish ... hydrolyzed
    vegetable protein! That was it! Some of the cans in the stockroom
    contained it; others didn't.  So now I know to stay clear of canned
    tuna (and all the salad dressings, and all the soups [MSG in the stock
    base], and everything on the hot line ...).
    
    By the way, a lot of the turkeys I saw at the supermarket this year
    (both frozen and fresh) contained hydrolyzed vegetable protein. So the
    centerpiece at many of our holiday gatherings probably contained MSG. 
    
    About two weeks before the "60 Minutes" segment on MSG, there 
    was an article in the Wall Street Journal about how the Glutamate
    Manufacturers Association was planning to conduct "damage control"
    public relations to counteract the expected response to the "60
    Minutes" segment. The association has a powerful lobbying arm that is
    impeding efforts to get clearer labeling of MSG-containing foods.
    Today, it's legal to hide MSG in any of the ingredients listed at the
    beginning of this note. The association would like to keep it that way.   

    The weekend before Thanksgiving we attended a social event, dancing and
    homemade refreshments, mostly cheese, crackers and the "chex-mix", I
    was drinking white wine, nothing excessive though.  The next morning I
    had a sick headache like I've never had before.  Hubby was fine, and he
    had had more wine than I had.  This headache resisted everything I took
    for it, and even Monday afternoon at work I was having chest
    palpitations, tingling in my arms, feeling lightheaded etc. Just for
    the fun(?) of it I stopped in the supermarket to glance at the recipie
    for the chex mix, on the box, it called for some huge amount of salt
    PLUS Accent (MSG) added in.  Since I was eating more or the mix than
    cheese and crackers, I can only blame that, especially since I was
    filling this tiny plate from the bottom of the container.  There are
    also Nitrites(?SP) in some wines, but that wasn't the culprit, since I
    had previously checked out the label when I bought it for personal use.
    
    

    I have to open up this subject again, due to the chaos it has caused in
    our lives lately...  As far as I can get from this note, there is
    NOTHING conclusive about avoiding "incidental MSG" during pregnancy,
    right??  I think it would be enough to avoid Chinese food and straight
    spice-rack MSG ("Accent"), but after reading this, my wife wants to
    avoid everything that says "natural flavors" on it!!  Based on two
    notes here, anecdotal of a "60 Minutes" report...
    
    The replies here have variously identified "Chinese food headaches,"
    which just about everyone can attest to (including me), asthma
    aggravation, and some stomachaches related to high-MSG foods.  One
    noter cites a friend's doctor advising to avoid MSG during pregnancy.  
    And one of our books at home on super-careful pregnancy only says to 
    avoid it in Chinese food and on your spice rack.
    
    However, will someone agree with me in saying that pregnant women do
    not need to go crazy trying to avoid the ingredients on the "60
    Minutes" list?  At best, these only concern those who are extremely
    MSG-sensitive?  And that "Natural Flavors" (why the caps???) 
    does NOT == MSG all of the time, or even most of the time?  I seem 
    to remember reading that "natural flavors" can refer to lots of 
    things, like the apple products used in most "blueberry" foods... 
    Does anyone have some data to back me up?
    
    This subject is getting out of control in our house, based on
    incomplete information.  Shed some light if you can.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Brian W.

If your wife's really nervous about "natural flavors" including MSG, she can
always call or write to the manufacturer.

I'd recommend calling your doctor's office and asking them.

My doctor has not said a word about MSG.  None of the literature I have
specifically mentions MSG.  I'm now 25 weeks pregnant and I've eaten at
Chinese restaurants.  I have never had an MSG headache, so I don't think
I'm particularly sensitive to the stuff.

But frankly, I'd rather take advice from my doctor than a notes conference
(or a TV show for that matter!).

Is there some way for your family to compromise on this?  If I were convinced
(for whatever reason) that some ingredient was bad for the baby, I would be
*extremely* upset if someone were strongly encouraging me to eat it anyway.
If your wife buys the food and prepares the meals (not always the case I know, so
no flames please!), would it hurt you to do without MSG and whatever else it
is that she wants to avoid?  Is there perhaps some other way to compromise
on this? 

Good luck working this out!

    You can certainly request Chinese food to be prepared without the MSG -
    most restaurants can do it for items except the appetizers, which tend
    to be prepared in large batches.
    
    My doctor's suggestion when I was pregnant was to skip Chinese food for
    the most part during pregnancy - one or 2 meals of it might not have an
    affect, but eating LOTS of MSG on a regular basis might.....  so I had
    one at the beginning, and one Chinese meal at the end of the pregnancy
    :-)
    
    

    I am a Chinese food junkie.  I ate it regularly throughout my
    pregnancy, not only in restaurants, but prepared at home.  I don't
    remember ever getting a headache from it.  But then again, I ate spicy
    and hot meals (Thai, Mexican, Chinese) throughout as well.  The running
    joke was that my baby was going to want hot peppers in his formula.

    The result of all this?  A 10+ pound healthy boy who continues to
    exceed the charts for height, and is pretty normal for weight.  I of
    course think he is the best baby in the world.

    Everyone is different.  If you have reactions to certain foods, avoid
    them.  If not, the stress of worrying about it is probably worse that
    the food itself.

    marianne

    Thanks for the replies.  I guess we need to call & ask our doctor.
    
    We are both responsible for planning the menu/grocery list, and usually
    shop together.  I'm sorry if my reply sounded a bit hysterical; this is
    why.  It's almost impossible to find many foods that don't contain
    "natural flavor" on the ingredients list, and I'm not convinced that
    this always (or even usually) means MSG.  (For instance, in breakfast
    cereal?)  I don't see anything in the previous replies which implies to
    me that the "60 Minutes" report, for what it's worth, said this either.
    {This becomes a "all chickens are birds, therefore, all birds are
    chickens" argument, if you see what I mean...}
    
    Naturally I am willing to compromise, and avoid anything that
    explicitly contains MSG (or nitrates, or lots of salt, etc).  I just
    don't want to go through the grocery store reading label items and
    saying, "What do they *really* mean by `water?'  Is that spring water,
    or New York City municipal water?"  I am not ready to become a one-man
    FDA.
    
    Thanks again,
    
    Brian W.

re .30:

BTW, NYC municipal water is probably better than most spring water.