Conference moira::parenting_v3

    
    It's not so much how much time you spend with your children as long as
    it's quality time! Sound familiar? (I watch those Jesus christ of
    Latter Day Saints comercials!). Well, I haven't run into this stage yet
    because my daughter is only 11 months old. Try this: Make a list of all
    the things your child like to do,every day check off 1 thing on the
    list and do that activity. Today working parents are flat out busy people,
    and there should always be some time put aside for the kids,though it's
    difficult. Even if it's reading a short story or playing ring around the 
    rosy.Though you can't spend alot of time doing doing some of the things 
    you mentioned, you can still do them for a little while each day.
    Every parent feels their child need them to play with them for hrs. but 
    even the shortest time spent will be appreciated in the long run.
    
    So relax and enjoy a 10 minute play in the sandbox, after all you work
    hard and deserve some "Playtime" too !
    
    
    Sandy ( a first time mom who can't wait to do these things with her
            little one)
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    But don't just think of "play" as important time with your kids.
    Consider incorporating them into the chores and errands you must do.
    It's less efficient than doing it all yourself, but it kills two birds
    with one stone, and teaches them about responsibility as well.
    
    Our schedule (during the school year) is: 
    
      2 PM - pick up younger ones at child care, do errands or housework
        until...
    
      3:10 - drive to bus stop to pick up oldest (going to 2d grade next month)
    
      3:30 til 4 or 4:30 - go to park or play at home, possibly combined
        with errands if necessary
    
      4:30 - 5:00 - kids eat (wife gets home to late to make it a family
         meal, alas)
    
      5-6 - Older does homework, younger ones play, while Daddy has martini
        and fruit or cheese and reads New York Times while listening to 
        classical music.
    
      6-7 - Homework continues if necessary, we all play or work/play,
         outside if weather permits, inside otherwise
    
      7-8 - Change for bed, have snack, brush teeth, read books with Daddy
       (or Mommy and Daddy if she has made it home by then)
    
      8-9 - read to selves in bed, lights out by 9 maximum
    
    Obviously, this schedule, as crammed as it is, is only possible because
    I work part time. (Regular schedule of 7 AM - 1 PM, plus 1 hr each way
    from home in Boston to the DECburbs).
    
    Kit

    Boy is this one familiar!  I have two daughters, Alyssa is almost 4 and
    Krystin is 1 year.
    
    After the girls go to bed, I try to make some or all of the next nights
    supper.  Reheating food takes far less time than cooking it and most of
    it still tastes like you just cooked it.
    
    -  Heat up dinner
    -  Eat dinner
    -  Rinse off plates & pans and place them in the sink. (Don't do the
       dishes, wait until the kids are in bed.)
    -  Then it's playtime.  We either play on the swings, color, play a
       game, go for a walk, go for an icecream, etc.
    -  We play anywhere from 1-2 hours.  Then it's bathtime (if they really
       need it.)  Alyssa usually gets at least a little dirty from 
       playing on the playground, but a quick sponge bath takes care of 
       that.  I give her a bath every other night.
    -  Then I sit and read Alyssa a story while Krystin sits next to me
       drinking her nightly bottle.  At the end of the book, 
       I put Krystin to bed.  
    -  After Krystin is put to bed, we brush Alyssa's teeth and then I tuck
       her into bed.
    
    
    Krystin is usually in bed at 7:00 - 7:30.  Alyssa is usually in bed
    around 8:00.
    
    After the kids are in bed, we make the next nights dinner and do the
    dishes.  When we get through all that, it's about 8:30-9:00.  We spend
    a couple hours together relaxing, and then go to bed.  Then it starts
    all over the next day.
    
    Just make sure you do the activities your child likes.  If you do that
    he/she won't really pay too much attention to how much time is spent
    doing it.
    
     

I know how you feel.  I have 2 boys : 3 years, and 4 months.  I've made a
few adjustments to my routine recently.

I work 7:00 a.m. to 3:30.  I live less than 2 miles from my work which means
I don't have to waste any of my time commuting.

1) I go home for lunch almost every day. While home, I often throw in a load
of laundry.  After work I fold/put away the laundry.

2)I get home a little past 3:30. I change my clothes, get the mail, and put
away any laundry I may have done at lunch.

3)I pick up the kids from daycare around 4:00 and get home around 4:30.  The
baby usually has a nap when we get home, and I spend time with my oldest
(reading, T-ball, or whatever).

4)One major compromise I've made is I let my oldest son watch the Teenage
Mutant Ninja Turtles cartoon at 5:00.  I'd rather he didn't, but he really
enjoys it (and, after viewing it with him, I guess it's not so bad.  This
gives me time to start dinner and/or feed the baby, and sometimes get some 
ironing in.

5)We eat from around 5:45 (when my husband gets home) to about 6:30.

6)After dinner one of us finishes feeding the baby (if necessary) and then
we do stuff like play frisbee, baseball, watch the news, or whatever.  (Since
there are 2 parents and 2 children it works out pretty well - we each kind of
take one kid.)

7)Another compromise...our kids get baths every OTHER night.  The baby gets a
bath around 6:30 (I do his bath) and the 3 yr old gets his at 7:30 (my husband
usually does his bath).  After bath, the baby goes to bed (at 7:00).

8)My husband and I usually do chores around 7:30 - load the dishwasher, iron,
pay bills, run small errands, and/or spend time with our 3 yr. old (playing, 
reading, etc.)  I also make the lunches for the next day.

9)At 8:30 my other son gets ready for bed, brushes his teeth, and goes to bed.
I take my shower.

I am usually in bed with a book, magazine, or my remote control by 9:00 and
asleep by 10:00 'cos I have to get up at 5:30 a.m.

Also, I have a cleaning lady come in once a week to clean.

The hardest thing is when my husband is out of town, or else playing softball
after work because then I have to do all that myself.  I really gotta hand it
to you single parents, I don't know how you manage!

� �ori �

    I get home a varying times, but I'm usually there by 5 or 5:30 to feed
    Daniel his dinner. After dinner we do one of the following...

    - Errands, which is fun for him, as he enjoys going "bye bye in the car"
    - visit Grammy (who lives only a mile away) possible taking in a dip in
      the pool
    - take a walk 
    - stay at home and play. This is getting more fun as Daniel gets older!


    About 7:00 it time for a bath, which can take up to 30 minutes. After
    that we sit and rock while Daniel has his bottle. We usually watch
    Cheers then MASH reruns. There are times I think he actually waits for
    the MASH theme song before going to bed. When he's ready for bed, he
    turns around to put his head on my shoulder and give me the warmest
    hugs (sigh). I then lay him down in his crib, hand him Teddy the bear
    (original, huh?). Ten minutes later, he's sound asleep.

    good night folks!
    yawn!! :-O

    
    
    I am a first time mom, so I have just started with these nightly 
    routines.  Rebecca is only 4 months old but it is so much work
    because I do everything myself.  Well, last night really topped
    everything off, my husband agreed that he would stay home with
    Rebecca so I could do some grocery shopping.  Well when I ever
    returned and saw my husband come running to the car, I panicked
    he said that she had thrown up all over him and she wouldn't 
    stop crying.  I immediately ran into the house to see what was
    wrong.  First of all, Rebecca is not a fussy baby, she is really
    content and happy.  She was covered in vomit and she was not
    very happy.  I was so mad at my husband, I started to scream at him.
    I told him he should have changed her when she vomitted, and also
    he told me that he had gotten a couple of phone calls so she 
    go upset because he put her down in her chair after he spent a 
    few minutes playing with her.  I also went to check her diaper
    and sure enough she had a mess in her pants.  I guess what I am
    trying to get at is that my nightly routine is so hectic especially
    when my husband really doesn't pitch in to good!  I have left
    her alone with him plenty of other times and she has been great
    and he with her.  I just think he was having a bad day, he owns
    his own business so alot of pressure comes with it.  Between working
    and taking care of Rebecca and the house cleaning.  I feel like 
    I never spend time doing what I like.  Also, I feel so bad at night
    because I really can't spend valuable time with Rebecca as she goes
    to bed at 8:00.  As for my husband, we haven't spent time together
    since I came back to work in July.
    
    So much for nightly routines.
    
    

    Thanks for all the feedback so far, I do plan on taking several
    suggestions to heart.
    
    But....it's opinion time....do you think it's OK for me to plunk
    himdown infront of the TV for a half hour or so while I do dinner?  I
    guess I just hate the idea of him turning into a couch potatoe when the
    weather is so nice he ought to be outside.
    
    Another dumb question, how come so many people take a half hour in the
    tub?  We deal with baths on a nightly basis, and our favorite phrase is
    "It's the fastest bath in the west", in an out usually within 10
    minutes.  I guess I don't see the bathtub as a place to play.
    
    Lyn

    There's nothing wrong with 10 min baths. I do the same with my
    daughter. Wsh her up then 5 min of play time. Seeing how I have to stay
    with her it gets a little boring watching after a while.
    
    

    
    re: .7
    
    My son (just shy of 2) plays outside while I cook dinner.  He is
    always within ear and eye-shot of the kitchen sink however.  I also
    do what I can to prepare the meal in advance or cook on the grill
    so that I can be outside with him as much as possible.   We try
    to stay away from the TV as much as possible...
    
    As far as the bathtub is concerned, I just thought that all kids 
    enjoyed playing in the tub!  Jason's last anywhere from 5-30 minutes;
    mostly his call as to how long he wants to stay in there.  
    
    Carol

    My nightly routine varies, but it's pretty much this:
    
    Pick up Jackie at daycare around 5-5:15 and then home.  I live 4 miles
    from work/daycare so it's easy.  Depending on how tired she is, I may
    stop at the grocery store (on the way) to get dinner.
    
    Usually at 5:30 when we get home, she's tired and cranky.  Rather than
    deal with her this way, I put her down for a nap which can last
    anywhere from 1/2 hour to 2.5 hours.  I usually don't let her go past
    7:30, though.  While she's sleeping, I sit down and relax for a few
    minutes, then decide what she will have for dinner.  When my husband
    gets home, I'll run to the store for dinner (if we have nothing) or
    he will.  Sometimes we eat our dinner before Jackie wakes up, or 
    sometimes it's closer to 8:30-9:00 when we eat.
    
    Around 7:00 I start checking on Jackie (by the way, she's 14.5 months).
    If she's not awake, I'll try doing stuff in her room so she'll wake on 
    her own.  I then change her and we go downstairs to have dinner. 
    Because she's had a decent nap, she's happy during dinner, we play with
    her afterwards, and there's still usually time for a bath.  She'll go
    to bed around 8:30-9:00.  If there's no nap, bedtime is at 7-7:30.
    She sleeps through the night and wakes up around 7:00am (regardless of
    when she went to sleep).
    
    As for playing in the bath tub, she really likes the water so I let her
    play while I bath her.  I usually will get her out when she starts
    playing with the lever that lets the water out.  
    
    Mary
    

    I'll be honest, I don't really enjoy "playing with the kids" all
    the time.  I am not outside after work "playing with the kids" or
    reading to them.  They are 7 and 9.  Their dad just recently joined
    us again, and I really do value him.  I don't particulariy enjoy
    cooking every day.  Fortunately, he likes to cook and does most
    of it.  I'll usually heat up the vegetable or peel the potatoes
    while he does the main course.  I guess, pretty soon the kids will
    be cooking too.  They do the kitchen cleaning.  It's great.  
    
    A typical work-school day: up at 6am, he works 7-3:30; I 8-5.  The
    kids get home about 3.  He'll be there, so this year, I don't have
    to pay a lot of day care.  He doesn't do much around the house,
    except on the week-ends if I make a fuss.  So, he'll usually fix
    the bikes or the other kids broken toys, visit a neighbor, help
    the kids with their homework.  Then I get home around 5:15.  I usually
    spend about 10 mins. yelling about the messy house and how I was
    going to straighten it up one more time and then I want it to be
    kept up.  Then I tear my clothes off and put on a comfortable shirt
    and take a sit on the couch for a few minutes or so.  
    
    Then it's time to do the dinner.  Showers, a load of laundry, grocery
    shhopping.  I like to do some unroutine things on a week day.  I'd
    love to get off work about 3ish.  Then I'd have the whole rest of
    the day to do anything.  It'd be great.
    
    Usually the kids play sports or are involved in lessons of some
    sort.  That's what I like to participate in.  It'll soon be time
    for soccer.  Dad may coach, since he's home early, but by the time
    I get home, practice is over.  So, I love Saturadays.  I don't really
    buy into this "quality time" deal.  I remember as a kid, that I
    really hated my mom nor anyone being home after school.  I didn't
    care if they acutally played with me.  At least they were there.
     And besides, how the hell do you plan this "quality time" thing.
     All kinds of things happen during "quanity time" that makes the
    quality of family what it is: a whole bunch of good of bad!
                                                               

    My routine does vary sometimes.  My son is 11� months and is now
    starting to want to do things.  My husband is only home 4 days a month,
    so I am more or less on my own.  
    
    We get home around 6:00 and Stephen will play with his toys while I 
    change clothes, open mail and straighten up alittle. 
    
    6:30 - I will get his dinner ready and fed him.  Then I watch my soap
    while he takes a nap.  During this time, I also eat my dinner and clean
    up the kitchen real quick.
    
    7:30  Stephen will wake up (or I'll wake him up) and we will either go 
    swimming, take a walk or play inside together.  Sometimes we go grocery 
    shopping, but that is usually a weekend thing.
    
    8:30 I will get his bath ready and we will play some more while he is
    in the tub.  I then get him ready for bed.  He will stay up until 9:00
    and then I give him his bottle and I put him to bed.
    
    By this time I am so tired, I don't feel like doing anything.  I can't
    clean the kitchen or any other cleaning while he is sleeping because we
    live in a small one bedroom apartment and his crib is in the dining
    room.  Any kitchen noise will wake him up.  I do all laundry and
    cleaning on weekends.  
    
    Sometimes it gets real tough, especially on days when I have had a real
    stressful day and I am wiped out by the time I get home.  On those days
    we will both laydown on my bed and take a nap together.
    
    When hubby is home all the above goes out the window and we wing it.
    
    Kathy 

    Lyn,
    
    I'm answering your question without reading the replies in
    between, so I hope I'm not repeating what others have already
    said. 
    
    We've been having very good luck working "split shifts" --
    basically taking advantage of Digital's flexible hours in
    engineering facilities to decrease the number of hours both of us
    are away from home.  We have a more relaxed routine in both the
    morning and the evening.
    
    We both get up at 5:30 in the morning -- and boy was that hard for
    this night owl to get used to for a while.  Neil goes straight in
    to work.  I have an hour or more for my writing, and then I get
    Steven (7) and David (2) up and ready for school (fall) or camp
    (now) and the babysitter.  I pack lunches, check school bags, give
    them breakfast, all the rest of that stuff, and deliver them.  I
    get to work between 8:30 and 9:00.  
    
    By 14:30 Neil has put in his eight hours, so he leaves in time to
    pick Steven up at the bus and then get David.  By the time I get
    home at 17:30, Steven has already had his after school snack and
    is off playing with friends.  David has had supper and time to
    play with Daddy and has gone on to his toys.  Neil has supper on
    and he's playing the piano.  I have a few minutes to change out of
    my work clothes and play with David, then we sit down and eat, and
    we have a full hour or more after we eat most of the evening free
    for playing games, going for walks, or whatever before David has
    his bath and his story and goes to bed between 19:30-20:00. 
    Steven goes to bed the same time we do, 21:30. 
    
    I still don't like getting up early, and a lot of times my morning
    "personal time" will be spent snoozing, but all in all it's been
    great.  We each get some personal time, we have more time when the
    kids are with at least one of us, and we don't have to hassle with
    after-school daycare, which in my experience is the single worst
    hassle of having older children.  Evne though we have to go to bed
    early, it's been much less hectic.  
    
    --bonnie

    Our routine starts with my husband picking up our oldest son from the
    day care and the baby from the sitters, since he gets home first. 
    After the arrive home, the oldest watches the Turtles while my husband
    changes his clothes.  The baby goes upstairs with him.
    
    By the time I arrive home at 5:30pm, my husband has probably started a
    load of laundry or doing some little jobs around the house.  He tries
    to get dinner started before I arrive and then I take over.  So we
    generally eat by 6:00pm.
    
    After I eat, (while the baby is still in the high chair) I go to the
    kitchen and start to clean up the dinner mess.  By the time I am done
    both of the children are finished eating.  Then clean up their mess. 
    By 6:30pm, we are outside...either riding our bike, playing ball, or
    taking a walk to the park near our house.
    
    Every other night we are back in the house by 7:30pm, it's bath
    night...I give the baby a bath (he's 14 months) and then drain the tub
    and the oldest (almost 5) takes his shower.
    
    Then the baby goes to bed at 8:00pm, and the oldest has his nightly
    snack.  Then he goes off the bed by 8:30pm.  On the weekends, he stays
    up until 9:00.  
    
    Then it's back to the kitchen to pack lunches for tomorrow and try and
    decide what's for dinner tomorrow.  Then it's time for the shower for
    me.  Then in bed by 10:00pm.  Our day too starts at 5:30 am.  My
    husband leaves for the offices at 6:15 am.
    
    Some times I don't know how I do it...I too feel like SUPERMOM.  But I
    wouldn't change it for anything...
    
    Lillian
    

    I have a 3 and 6 year old
    My 'routine' has changed quite drastically recently, so I can give you
    two - the one we used to have, and the one I have now;
    
    USED TO BE;
    My husband picked up the kids at daycare at 5:00 and ran errands or
    took a walk or pushed them on the swingset.  In the midst of this he
    might do some laundry or sweep the floor or do dishes.
    
    6-7:00, I'd come home, yell for 10 mins because the kids were starving
    and hadn't been fed, get dinner for them and rush them into their
    baths.  Their bath can be 2-30 mins - up to them.  It's nice if they
    take a longer bath because it gives me more time for 'whatever'.  Sit
    and collapse, fold laundry, eat dinner (we never eat together) etc.
    After the bath, it's anywhere between 7:30 and 8:30, depending on when
    I got home.  If it's 8:30, it's 10 mins of quiet time and then bed
    (We've found that they almost ALWAYS need a few mins to relax after
    their bath).  If it's 7:30, then me and the kids might go out for a
    walk or on the swings or try to play a quiet game or read a book or
    just talk.  8:00 - 8:30 is usually TV, and then bed at 8:30.
    
    If there's any energy left after 8:30, then it's clean the house and
    try to be to bed by 10:00.
    
    
    Now what we do .....
    
    I have the boys every other day.  I pick them up from the babysitter at
    5:00.  We go back to the apt. have a snack (juice and cookie, freeze
    pop or something) and they play in the playground there for a little
    while.  If it's a hot day we'll head over to the pool, where they'll
    paddle around for about 45 mins, and Everyone is much more relaxed and
    can deal with each other easier.  
    
    About 6:00 - 6:30, they'll be ready to eat, and we'll decide on, and
    make and eat dinner together.  After dinner, _AND_ if it's after
    7:30/8:00 if they need a bath, same length of time as above.  If it's
    still early after dinner, they race out to the playground and drag a
    few friends back home and we'll have cookies and talk or play a bit.
    By 8:00, things are pretty well settled, we'll listen to a record and
    dance and sing for a while, then about 8:20 it's bedtime and I'll make
    up a story for them (usually about them), and they're asleep ~8:30.
    
    Laundry is in the building, so that's done after they're in bed, as are
    dishes.  They're not allowed to eat/drink anyplace except the kitchen,
    so that mess is all in one place, and before they go to bed for the
    night, they must put their things back in their room.  Being there's
    only 3 rooms (plus the kitchen), it's pretty easy to do!
    
    One thing that I discovered though .... we USED to have a *VERY* strict
    bedtime, that no matter what happened, the boys HAD to be in bed by
    8:00.  There was so much stress around this, and half the time they
    weren't sleepy then, that everyone was miserable.
    
    The routine above is what we try to stick to.  The times are a
    guideline.  Sometimes they're in bed earlier, sometimes much much
    later.  Once I made up my mind that I wouldn't put them to bed until
    I'd spent at least 1/2 hour paying attention to each of them, life got
    an AWFUL lot easier.  ALSO, if they KNOW that you're going to play with
    them eventually, they don't bother you about it so much the times
    you're NOT playing with them!  REALLY!
    
    Good Luck!
    Patty
    
    p.s. .... if you REALLY want to save some time, get rid of that house
    and all the extra work that goes with that!!!  I'm amazed how much more
    time I have - don't need to worry about raking or mowing the lawn,
    weeding, putting the barrels out, taking the barrels in, watering the
    lawn, sweeping/shoveling the driveway, sweeping/vacuuming/dusting twice
    as many rooms as you need, and the list goes on and on!!! It's not your 
    jobs or your kids that are killing you - it's maintaining a 'large' house 
    for yourselves!
    

    My routine is so easy, I feel a little guilty....
    
    Out of work at 5:00.  Pick up boys at 5:15, home by 5:30.  Take dinner
    requests (I hate thinking up what to cook).  Cook dinner.  Serve and
    eat anywhere from 6:00-7:00.  Meanwhile, kids are playing together 
    (age 4 and 6) or with neighbors.  Eat and put dishes in sink - done in 
    <30min. Kids back out to play until 8:00 or dusk.  Bath when needed - 
    not every night.  Everything is very relaxed at our house.  My husband
    works nights, so it's just me and the boys.  We go to the mall, we rent
    videos, we walk, we play, we read, we play school (homework).  My
    oldest doesn't require much sleep - he can go to bed at 9:00
    (non-school nights) and get up at 6:30 and go all day.  My younger
    sleeps more - he'll go to bed at 9:00 and sleep until 8:00.  No one
    takes naps - they are at daycare for 2 hours.  Husband helps maintain
    the house during the week - we do laundry as necessary.  
    
    I have never felt that I didn't have time to do all the necessities.  I
    don't make lunches (everyone's home to eat), I grocery shop with the
    kids, etc. 
    
    I do remember, however, when they were smaller - getting them to bed
    earlier made for a much more rushed evening.  Guess it gets better as
    they get older....
    
    -sandy
      

    RE:  baths and TV
    
    I think this daily bathing is a bit weird - our 3 kids takes baths when
    they need it, or when they want to, whichever comes first. It averages
    out about twice a week, less for the 7 year old in summer because he
    swims a lot but doesn't particularly like baths.
    
    As for TV, sigh, we allow an hour a day (plus a few minutes around 
    breakfast). The only one who ever really was much of a TV bug is the
    older one (7), and he watches 2 half-hour shows in the late afternoon.
    
    Kit 

    RE: .17
    
    I don't see why you should think that a daily bath should be weird.  Kids 
    get hot and sweaty just like adults do.  Doesn't it feel good to you to get
    all cleaned up after a hot day?  I also find that it relaxes and
    unwinds my son, and he usually falls alseep within 30 minutes after a
    bath.
    
    Kathy
       

    My kids would definitely object if I tried to skip bath time - it's one
    of their favorite activities!  This may change as they get older (they're
    1 and 3 1/2 now).  Among Gregor's first half dozen words were "bath" and
    "splash".  Maybe our definition of "bath" is a little different, though?
    It consists of a quick once-over with a wet washcloth (mainly to get
    their heads clean), followed by up to half an hour of filling and
    emptying cups, splashing, pushing the rubber ducks around, pushing the
    boats around, putting the bath toys out on the floor and then picking
    them back up and putting them in the tub, etc.

						cheryl

    I have a 3 yr old and 10 months old.  The 3 yr old goes to a 
    daycare center and 10 months old goes to a family daycare.
    Our routine is:
    
    - pick up Eric (3 yr) at daycare at 5:30pm, back home around 6pm
      
    - prepare dinner while Eric is watching Seasame Street
    
    - have dinner around 6:45pm, or right after my husband gets home
      (my husband usually pick up Monica on his way home)
    
    - my husband and I take turns to have dinner.  Usually I will
      feed the baby first then have dinner later.
    
    - the dinner is usually done around 7:30pm.
    
    - we then play for 1 hour
    
    - bath time starts around 8:30pm.  It usually takes me 10 minutes
      to do the baby.  Eric's bath will take a little longer.
    
    - The baby is usually in bed between 9-9:30pm.
    
    - Eric's bed time routine starts around 9pm.  He is usually asleep
      by 10pm.  My husband usually do the routine with Eric, so I can
      do dishes and clean up.
    
    - I am usually in bed between 10:30-11pm.  I am up at 6am everyday.
      Since the baby is up at 6am.  Eric is up at 7am.
    
    Since both my kids sleep very little.  Both sleep less than 12 hours
    per day, I have a very busy schedule. 
    
    Wendy

I am lucky that I can "flex-hours", so I usually leave about 3'ish.
That gives me time to hit the grocery store, bank, department store,
hairdresser (whatever needs to be done that day!) and then I try to get
home by 4-4:30 pm.

Pick up the mail and paper, let the dog out, unload (whatever my errands
were!) and start dinner.  THEN, the next 30-45 minutes are "lull" AND MY
TIME!  I NEED this time!  I unwind, read the mail, peel vegies, water
the garden ... whatever!

Jim leaves work at 5 pm, picks up Juli at daycare (1/2 mile away!) and
they arrive about 5:45 pm.

Usually dinner is ready, we ALL sit down and eat.  I clean up the kitchen
and put the first (of two) loads of laundry in the washing machine.  Jim
and Juli go outdoors to play (6:15-7:30 pm'ish).  When I'm done with the
kitchen (6:40'ish), I join them.  Sometimes the neighborhood kids come by, 
sometimes we take Juli for a walk, sometimes we play with Juli indoors ... 
whatever.  Lately, Jim/Juli pick the vegies (in the garden) and deliver
them to our neighbors.

At 7:30-7:45, Jim bathes Juli while I tidy up the house, finish the
laundry, start the dishwasher ... whatever.  Once in a while we'll switch
... I do the bathtime and Jim does the kitchen.  We try to sync our chores
so we can maximize our "free" time TOGETHER.

Family time (TV, play in rec room, etc.) until bedtime (8:30 pm).  Rest
of evening is Jim/Dottie's time.

Sometimes we do grocery shopping and errands in the evening, and top it
off at McDonald's or Friendly's.  Sometimes we do chores together (Juli
empties the dryer and Jim/I fold the clothes).

I "try" to do an errand or two after work, so it doesn't pile up on
weekends.  I've lowered my standards (wash kitchen floor when needed, not
once a week whether or NOT it needs it).  Jim/Juli/I try to do things
together (errands, chores, yardwork ...).  Jim is good about "sharing"
the chores and responsibilities ... and just entertaining Juli helps me
get something done 10X faster!

I, too, used to get upset when Jim if I found Juli in a backwards diaper,
smelled of spitup, red socks and a pink outfit ... BUT, my baby survived
just fine!  And criticizing Jim only alienated him from "trying" or
"wanting" to help.  I had to learn to bite my tongue (and God did it hurt
sometimes!),  I had to realize there wasn't ONLY ONE WAY (my way!).  I had
to accept his standards as being a little less than mine, I had to 
accept his ways as being a little different than mine and I quickly
realized that he did want to help me (and Juli)... if only I appreciated 
it AND didn't criticize and redo it!  I can't think of any of Jim's
screwups OR different-ways which REALLY risked our child's safety and
welfare.

Dottie

PS:  Juli was a colic baby.  She projectile vomited and in ONE SHOT hit
     Jim's backside, his chair, his terminal screen, his monitor, his
     keyboard, his desk, his coffee ... herself and her swing!  I called
     the Pedi and said "now what?" and he said "don't clean her up, bring
     her (and Jim!) in "as is" (I guess the consistency and amount would
     tell the Pedi how severe the colic was?  God only knows!).  That's
     when I realized that vomit wouldn't kill my kid or my husband ...
     (and Jim didn't even think of killing the kid for doing it!).

    We have a 21 month old daughter - our crazy life goes like this...
    
    5:00 I leave work and pick up Kristen, get home at 5:50 pm {My husband
         also leaves at 5:00, commutes an hour or so and is home by 6:00)
    
    5:50 I begin dinner for Kristen and myself, all done by 6:15
    
    6:15 Try to play outside for a while or play inside with toys and read
         books and color.
    
    6:45 If a bath night {every other night}, basically Daddy does this!
         {thank you, thank you, thank you}
    
    7:00 Get that last sip of apple juice in and she is off to bed.
         
    7:00-9:00  My husband goes to the gym to work out on Monday, Wednesday
         and Friday - I usually pack lunches, layout clothes for the next
         day, maybe ironing or sewing, maybe just watch 911...
    
    9:00 Husband comes home, I go to bed and he has dinner.
    
    5:00 am - next day do it again.
    
    On Tuesday and Thursday nights, this doesn't apply.  I go out and teach
    Aerobic classes and he does all the work with Kristen, including
    picking her up at day care on Thursday night.
    
    I understand what you are going through.  I have often wished I could
    work a shorter day, then do we just find more to do?  I would love to
    go out for a relaxing walk, swimming, do errands, etc at night, there
    is just no enough time.  I get up at 5:00 so I can go to the gym at
    6:00 am to workout before work - and my husband does the morning
    routine with our daughter - that's *their* special time.
    
    We just handle it through the week and then throw out the routines on
    the week-end, except bed time is always between 7:00-7:30.
    
    If you find any easier ways, please let me know!
    
    -Patty

    I forgot to say that I do my errands on my lunch hour and for the 
    majority of Saturday mornings.  I also do laundry at 5:30 in the
    morning and put it all away on Saturday.  My husband helps out
    tremendously with the chores and takes care of making his own dinners.
    
    For all it's worth, the craziness doesn't feel bad, it just feels
    like there's got to be an easier way...
    
    -Patty

    Re: .-1  How do you make dinner in 15 minutes??

Lyn, 

Of *course* it's okay to let them watch TV while you cook!  It keeps him
safe, and if you are concerned about what's on then you can let him watch
taped shows (like Sesame Street or Reading Rainbow).  What's more, if you
really think he needs daily baths, then you can let him take a bath while
you cook!  Let him play.  Buy him some boats for the bath, or some things
that stick on the walls and on him, etc (not sticky; I don't know what they
are, but my mom got some space ones for Evan: astronauts, comet, planet, star).
We only do a bath about twice a week, and whereas it used to take up a lot
of my time, now, at age 3 1/2, Evan plays alone most of the time and all
I do is the initial cleaning.  I keep an ear on him and he lets me know
when he is ready to come out.

Our average evening has Shellie cooking while I talk/play with Evan.
Sometimes I work in the garden for 15 minutes while he runs around the yard,
or else we will play with toys or watch TV or whatever.  We usually eat
fast stuff like mac'n'cheese, or frozen fish with rice, or other stuff that
takes less than 30 minutes to make.  When Shellie's cooking, she tries to
add a vegetable; I tend to forget.  :-}

After dinner, we play some more.  Sometimes that includes a walk to the park,
a couple of blocks away.  Sometimes we play outside some more.  Sometimes
I'll get smart and remember to bring out the playdough or a watercolor paint
book, or something, which gives me time to sit next to him and read a little
Time magazine (between the times I am complimenting him on his good work, or
rolling a playdough ball for him). 

When Shellie's tired, and I'm not home, they "veg" in front of the TV.
She gets stressed out a lot faster than I do, and this keeps them both
happy.

< I know there's someone out there who can put a little more organization into

I think one of my things is that I *don't* organize.  I try to play it by
ear.  So what if he doesn't get to bed at 8:00 (his bedtime)?  He doesn't fall
asleep until 9:30 anyway (we let him play in his room).  I figure the bedtime
is for *me*, so I can have some alone time or time with Shellie.  If I'm
too busy making magic rocks grow or teaching him about dinosaurs, then I'm
not going to stop to rush him into bed.

BTW, I also spend a *lot* of time putting him to bed - probably averaging about
45 minutes.  I like to really talk about the books, and songs, and sometimes
teach him stuff and sometimes learn from him.  That's in addition to all of
the above.

Summary: don't rush.  Have fun.  Play it by ear.  Enjoy *yourself*.

    Carol

    re: .24
    
    See "family cooking school" note for a few of the ideas. 
    Some others that I don't think are in there:
    
    Grilled cheese sandwiches and canned chili with tossed salads on
    the side
    
    Broiled steak with pasta and tossed salads or steamed broccoli
    (20 min. with practice and a thin steak)
    
    Broiled hamburgers and tossed salads, steamed broccoli, and/or
    frozen vegetable
    
    Chicken a la king (chunks of cooked chicken, can of veg. soup, can
    of cream of chicken soup) over pasta with sliced tomatoes for
    veggie
    
    --bonnie

    Our evening ritual is similar to many here, so I won't put it all in
    here.  The one thing that has struck me *a lot* is how little time
    couples spend together.  All we do together now is sleep.  Both of us
    are feeling not too pleased with this.  
    
    But at least I feel like I have a lot of company right now!
    
    judy

    My routine is about the same nightly during the week:
    
    My husband or I will pick up Chris (11 1/2 months) and get home around
    5:30. We play until about 6:00. We make dinner for Chris, although
    last night was the first night that I tried getting him to eat
    dinner with us, and he did great! (Hotdog and potatoe and carrots)
    
    After dinner we take a walk with the dog. Sometimes we do this before
    dinner, depending on how hungry Chris is. We then either play a little
    more, or take a bath. He loves the tub, and he sprays down the 
    bathroom during his bath. It's hilarious, but wet!!! We then dress
    him for bed, and play for awhile, depending on how tired he is.
    
    When he's ready for bed, usually between 7:30 - 8:00, we give him
    a bottle of milk, while rocking him. When he decides he has enough
    milk, we flip him around on his belly and cuddle and rock. Once
    he's asleep, we plop him in his crib. (I know some people don't think
    you should rock him to sleep, but I love the cuddle time!!!)
    
    Sheila
    

    My husband and I are lucky, we both work less than 15 minutes
    from home.

    My husband and I alternate evening pick-up.  I do it M/W/F one
    week, T/TH the next. If I leave the office at 5:00pm, I can get
    to Michael's (almost 4 years) preschool by 5:15.  I greet him 
    in the play yard, we empty his shoes of sand, wave good-bye to 
    friends and teachers and head home.  Since we live only 4 blocks 
    from school, we're home by 5:30. 

    I grab the mail, listen to messages on the answering machine, 
    change clothes and walk to the school at the end of the street,
    (6 houses away) to pick up Amber (age 6) from her after school
    care center. We walk home, usually stopping to chat with neighbors.
    My kids usually join the other kids' games in progress, while I
    go home to prepare dinner or decide which pizza company to order
    from :^)

    My husband is home by the the time I return which by now is 
    close to 6:00pm.

    Dinner usually consists of flour tortillas with any combination
    of ingredients (peanut butter, cheese, chicken, beans, etc.),
    plenty of yogurt, fresh fruits and a vegetable (the kids love to 
    eat fruits and veggies that have been sliced with garnishing tools).  
    Macaroni and cheese, rice (any kind), breakfast foods and sandwiches
    are also very popular meal offerings.  My daughter is so hard to
    please when it comes to food.  We found if we keep the kids busy
    until 7:30pm-8:00pm and allow only one small snack, she will eat 
    almost anything we put in front of her for dinner.  My son, on the 
    other hand, will eat anything at any time, but he likes veggies
    best.

    My son loves his bath time which he gets about three times a week.
    He gets a good wash down every night at the sink. Especially his
    fingernails and face and the sand between his toes. My daughter 
    hates (*HATES*) bath time and hair washings.  She is 6 and just 
    flat out refused to take bathes about the time she started kinder-
    garten. She does!!!, however, get a bath and her hair washed twice 
    a week, with special attention given to getting the chlorine out of 
    her hair, as she swims several times a week.

    Clean up (ie. baths, sink washings, teeth brushing, etc.) happens 
    around 8:15-8:30pm.  If they aren't done with clean up by 8:45, 
    there will be no bedtime story.  Storytime will last until 9:00-
    9:15 and then we talk about our day, what was fun, what was sad,
    what did we learn, what is going to happen tomorrow. Prayers follow
    and then, lights out.  Both kids are in the same room, so it helps
    streamline the bedtime routine. It also means that toys and other
    distractions are out of sight (in the spare room) and we don't find
    our son up at 10:30pm playing in the dark with his cars.

    After the kids are down, I try to catch up on reading the mail, 
    reading a book, get on the system and note, my husband generally has
    taken care of the kitchen duties while I'm putting the kids to bed.
    Mommmy and daddy's time is usually after the 11:00pm news. That
    is the only time we feel relaxed enough to talk to each other. 
    Lights go out in our room at midnight. 

    Food shopping is done by my husband on Tuesday nights after his
    weekly tennis league.  I spend Saturdays cleaning the house and
    doing laundry.  Sundays are 'family' day.  We go to the movies,
    do 'fun' shopping, go to the lake or pool or bike riding...
    
    We manage.  I can't imagine how people cope with long commutes,
    nasty weather (we're in mild so Cal), or unstable relationships.
    It can be so overwhelming.
    
    Jodi-
    

    Jodi brings up a good point, and one that I had forgotten -- if
    you can do something to cut down the length of your commute,
    you'll be able to cut down on the hecticness, too.  We're only
    about 15-20 min. from work, and the sitter's is on the route.
    
    --bonnie

It is really interesting to me how many of the husbands are able to do things 
like play softball or work out, while the wives are making dinner, preparing 
for the next day, etc.

I have a traveling husband, so I usually go it alone.  Leave work at 4:30, pick
up Elise, sometimes we do errands.  We're home by 5:15 to 5:45, depending.

I unload the car, let the dogs out, and make Elise's dinner bottle.  She drinks
that while I unpack her daycare bag and look thru the mail.  Then we play
until dinner time, at about 6:30.  I always have her dinner ready to nuke, so
making it is very fast.  I rely very heavily on the microwave and make very,
very simple meals.  (Like a salad and a banana).

After her dinner, we play some more, then bath at about 7:30-7:45, then bed.

Now, my evening job starts - I wash bottles, do laundry, make my dinner and
Elise's meals for the next day, read the mail, etc.  I usually am in bed by
9:30 and read until I fall asleep.  Morning comes at 5:45 and we're out the
door by 7AM.

I do all housework, such as it is, on weekends.  I also do yardwork, groceries,
etc.  When my husband is away, I get *NO* time off and I feel it.  When he's
here, he does the cooking, the groceries, and and most of the laundry.

    .31 has a good point.  A major part of the reason our days go
    relatively smoothly is that Neil considers the house and child
    care equally his responsibility.  At this point he's probably
    doing more than half of the routine work of keeping up the home. 
    This really makes a difference for both of us, just as sharing the
    breadwinning relatively evenly makes the pressures of work and the
    worries about layoffs less urgent. 
    
    And the kids do what they can.  David helps pick up toys, Steven
    sets up the table, Kat does the dishes and takes care of the cats.
    
    This sounds like a slogan from a bad improve-productivity seminar,
    but we've found it to be true for us:  The more it's a team
    effort, the better it goes for everybody.
    
    --bonnie

Also see topic 130, which discusses mornings, and how some people have made 
the mornings go smoother by getting things ready the night before.

     Carol duBois, PARENTING co-moderator

    I did a dir/tit=tantrums, but I didn't really find what I was
    looking for, so here goes:
    
    4-mo. old Holly has started spending the entire dinner hour
    crying and/or screaming.  Her last bottle at the sitter's is
    anywhere from 4 to 5 p.m., so when we pick her up at 5:30, she's
    had a bottle recently -- I don't think she's all that hungry.
    We just started her on cereal this week, so maybe that will help.
    Last night (I wasn't home), she threw such a "tantrum" (sorry,
    only word I can think of) that Mike put her in her crib and she
    cried herself to sleep in less than 10 minutes.  She slept like
    a lamb all night, too.  Her daytime naps are very sporadic -- she's
    sort of a catnapper, but some days she doesn't even do that.  Some
    nights she can stay up till 7:30 or 7:45, other nights she's
    completely zonked at 7.  What can I do?  I would like to eat dinner;
    more importantly, all of us would like to eat in peace.  The only
    time Holly is happy at dinner time is if someone is holding her.
    
    No wonder a friend of mine calls 5-7 p.m. "Hell Hour"...
    
    Kate

    	Boy does this sound familiar Kate....From 3 months till about
    	10 months, when Matt came home from daycare, he was a complete
    	bear.  Our dinner was miserable.  We determined the best thing
    	for him was to feed him, bath him, and get him into bed.  We
    	used to have him in bed sometimes between 6:30-7:00.  We just
    	came to the conclusion that he was miserable when he was tired,
    	and bed was the best thing for him.  Funny thing though, after
    	10 months...he just grew out of it.  It was a drastic...and
    	great change!  Now (16 months) he goes to bed between 8:00-8:30...
    	and he's the happiest child.  
    
    	Maybe it has to do with not really having a set routine yet...but
    	all I know is when we got home, we'd take care of Matt, get him
    	to bed, and then eat our dinner peacefully...hang in there...it
    	gets better.  (to think I'm going to go through it again in June
    	with number two!!...UGGH)
    
    	Ellen

    
    Anna went through something very similar around this time frame. I had
    started her on cereal also. There were some days I would pick her up
    from the babysitters and she would have had a bottle at 4 or 5 pm, so I
    figured she was set for a while and she would start screaming and
    nothing would work. It turned out that she was starving!!!! Once she
    started having cerealand fruit at lunch time it helped. Anna is now
    almost 6 months old and is much more pleasent at supper time. I still
    may end up reheating my supper cause she needs hers as mine is put on
    the table, but as soon as she eats her cereal and veggies and has an
    ounce or two of formula, she's happy as a clam and I get to eat in
    peace. 
    
    Good luck in making it through this time. Also, right around 4 months
    was when Anna wanted nothing more to do with the swing and we switched
    her into a walker and she was much happier, but then Anna has always
    been one to not enjoy being reclined. Even at a few weeks old she would
    strain to pull her head up and was much happier being held on a
    shoulder so she could see what was going on.
    
    Patty

    I had read somewhere that this is a "fussy" time for most
    babies/toddlers because it's a stressful time for the parents, i.e.,
    just get home from work and you have to get supper on the table.  I
    know that it is for me and it has been for 3.5 years.  Cara (3.5) is
    either whining about something, not hungry, wants to color, doesn't
    like the way her socks feel!!!! or Tommy (18 months) is hanging onto my
    leg while I'm trying to cook dinner, pointing at the food, screaming. 
    Then when I put him in his chair he either tries to get out, or throws
    his fork across the kitchen (he has a real good arm too!!) Anyway, I've
    decided to go back to giving him a spoon and if giving them both a
    cookie while I'm trying to get dinner ready, keeps them quiet, then
    that's what they get!!
    
    I guess I don't have a solution, but I can sympathize.  I just try to
    keep a sense of humour (not that easy sometimes), and breath a sigh of
    relief at 7:30 when everyone is fast asleep and they look like angels
    (of course my kitchen looks like hell though!!!)
    
    Good luck!
    Joyce B.
    

>    The only
>    time Holly is happy at dinner time is if someone is holding her.

In our case, that would have been enough to resolve the issue right there.

I don't remember in detail, but I don't think Elspeth had spent very much
time sitting by herself at meals by 4 months.

	-Neil

Evan was several months old before we ate dinner as a family again.
Usually he was fed at 6:00 or so, and we either ate in shifts or after 
he went to bed.  Hard to believe I could wait that long, but I did, regularly.

(I can still remember eating together for the first time.  Wow.
I was so amazed.)   :-}

      Carol

    Re .38:  I agree up to a point, but it's kind of hard to cut a
    piece of meat or a tricky lettuce leaf while holding a baby on
    your lap.
    
    Re .39 and in general:  I know everyone wants to do what is right
    for their children, but what about me?  I appreciate and understand
    the spirit in which .38 and .39 were written, but is it so dreadful
    to want to eat a meal?  When Mike isn't home in the mornings, which
    happens pretty often, if I don't get up the very instand the alarm goes
    off at 5:15 a.m., I don't get breakfast.  Like a lot of us noters --
    probably like everyone these days, I guess -- I eat lunch at my desk
    and frequently am typing with one hand and gulping a sandwich with the
    other.  When Mike isn't home in the evenings, if the kids are feeling
    extra "needy," then I don't get dinner.  Then I read these notes and I
    feel like a monster for wanting to take 20 minutes to eat.  I love my
    children and would do anything for them, but dammit, I can't do it on 
    an empty stomach.

    AJ is over 4-1/2 and I still feed myself with one hand, and help him
    with the other hand, and coax him verbally all through the meal.  Tell
    me again, what is the meaning of a *HOT* meal, arn't all mothers doomed
    to eat food which is either stone cold or nuked several times til dried
    out?  Conversations between we adults?  Well that's non existant!
    
    Seriously, when he was that age we used to come home and literally
    handhim a bottle til his supper was ready, something that only needed
    warming in the micro, bathe him put him to bed and then we'd have a
    chance to eat.  OR we'd feed him, put him in his highchair or
    kangarockaroo while we ate, and give him something to play with, or as he 
    got older some kind of finger food to keep him busy.             
    
    I second the thought someone made of the swing, I swear it is the best
    thing since a grandmother for entertainment! Unfortunate that our
    kitchen is too small to accomodate the swing.
    
    Not to rathole here, but why at 4 months is your baby sitting in your
    lap during mealtimes, where did this habit start?  Sounds like time for
    some behaviour modification to me. I would be afraid of a knife or fork
    slipping and hurting baby.  (not meant to offend, just an observation)
    
    Lyn

    Kate, 
    
    I knew sooner or later somebody was going to say something I had
    to answer. 
    
    No, there's nothing wrong with wanting to have a few minutes for a
    meal, and there's nothing wrong with expecting your child to learn
    to take your needs into account.  No, mothers are not doomed to
    eating cold food with one hand. No, we aren't bad mothers if we
    put the kid down rather than carrying him/her around constantly. 
    No, it's not unreasonable to expect the children to learn to
    behave in a civilized manner, and I think even a very young child
    is old enough to begin to understand that other people have rights
    too, and that no, they don't always get exactly what they want.  
    
    Different people have different definitions of what this means,
    and I don't mean to say that people who let their kids sit on
    their laps during dinner are doing something wrong.  But neither
    are those of us who want to eat a meal differently. 
    
    We used to put the baby in the playpen with a couple of favorite
    toys.  Steven was better off if he couldn't see what we were
    doing, because then he'd want to come and join us, while if we
    were out of easy sight, he'd play by himself, while David liked to
    watch us and was pretty happy there.  
    
    Later on, they'd sit in the high chair, and if they wanted to
    throw food on the floor or otherwise misbehave, they'd find
    themselves turned around to face a blank wall while the rest of us
    went on with our meal.  It's unpleasant the first couple of times
    but after that it never happened more than occasionally.  
    
    --bonnie

    
    	Ditto Bonnie!  You wrote it to the tee!  There is absolutely
    	nothing wrong with giving time to yourself.  Like I said before,
    	we always found it easier when Matthew was little to feed him,
    	bath him, get him to bed, and then eat peacefully ourselves.  Of
    	course this no longer happens now that he's older....were back
    	to crazy hectic dinners, while he throws his food...and sippy cup
    	around.
    
    	But one thing....you mentioned turning your child around in
    	his highchair when he started throwing food.  Matthew's going
    	through this right now, and I usually tell him our favorite word...
    	No...but it does nothing.  He sits in a tot loc at the counter
    	with us (he's 16 months..yesterday).  Any thoughts on how to
    	disipline him?

    RE: .34
    
    Does she just want *you*?  Like one of the previous replies, I had
    heard that this was a tough hour for infants, having had it after
    all the overstimulation during the day.
    
    Our solution, at that age, was for one of us to "hold" her in a Snugli
    pouch while we ate, carefully.  She just wanted to snuggle.  We have
    some great pictures (yes this is our first child) of Katina with
    noodles and assorted vegetables on her tiny head (all cold of course). 
    This gave us a chance to have our meal (and some adult conversation) in
    peace.
    
    Now that she's older, 13 months, after the third time the sippy cup
    hits the floor, that's it... that and any food she's been eyeing
    to trash are gone.  A few minutes later, we take her out of her high
    chair and she's off to her room to play with her toys.  I'm hoping
    she's not associating acting up with a way not to eat and leave the
    table.  I don't think she is yet...

    Oh the terrible dinner time!
    
    Kate, I have had exactly the same problem with Allison our second.  She
    has always gone to bed early for some reason(7:00pm), so she is always
    cranky at dinner time.  Many times I spend the first part of dinner 
    attending to the kids, but then after they eat I have 5-10 mins or so
    to eat my dinner when they play because they are all done.
    
    I have even started having them watch a video when they are done, so I
    can finish my dinner and have 5mins of peace.  That way we sort of get
    the best of both worlds since we eat together as a family for a time
    and then eat by myself for a time.  Usually after dinner Stephen amuses
    Allison so she isn't so cranky.  Hang in there, they do get older and 
    change some.
    
    RE: a few back
    
    Allison, 17 months is greatly amused by throwing food when she is done
    with her meal.  She knows she is not supposed to do it and you should
    see the grin she gives me!  As soon as I know she is done,(one item on 
    the floor), I race to clear the tray.  If she wants more I tell her no,
    since you threw your food you are all done.  She usually is all
    finished.
    
    I can't wait until this food throwing stage is over.
    
    Karin

    I would like some feedback on my latest attempt to get AJ to eat...
    He's been going through this "living on Air stage".  He doesn't eat
    much for lunch, so I have concerns and try to get as much into him at
    supper as I can.  We are now eating with him at the table, after his
    bath and PJ's.  When my husband and I finish, we will sit with him for
    a few minutes, but we have started insisting that he will finish what's
    on his plate before he can leave the table.  We make it clear that if
    he takes too long there can be no time for quiet time with television
    prior to going to bed.
    
    We had previously tried setting a cake timer, but found that with that
    he'd just fool around until the timer rang, and pretty much end up not
    eating anything at all.
    
    I just feel so guilty over this, should I??
    
    Lyn

    
    re: .46
    
    I don't know about older kids like AJ, but I do know that if my
    2-year-old does not want to eat, there is NO WAY to make him 
    eat.  Furthermore, most of the childraising books I've read agree
    that to force children to eat is to invite food/weight problems.
    
    So, my basic philosphy is to attempt to have Jason eat his meals
    with us at the table, but on those occasions when he doesn't want
    to eat, to excuse him from the table with only "good" snacks (fruit,
    bread, crackers, etc) or his leftover meal offered at a later time.
    It's working so far....
                                       
    Carol

There is nothing wrong with taking time for yourself.  The way I do it
as I try to get both my needs and the child's met, if possible.
At 4 months, I don't think they can understand that other people need
time.  I think that all they can understand is that "I'm not going to get
my needs/wants met."  In this case, I would either take turns with another
adult eating, while the other person took care of the child, or I would use
a Snuggli and eat, so I could hold the child without using my hands, or
I would find something to distract the baby while I ate, like a tape of
Sesame Street or a Disney sing-a-long tape or the fish tank or something.

As to Lynn's concerns, Evan is 3 1/2 and he almost always eats separately
from us, by his choice.  He tells me about his day before dinner, and we
play afterwards, and our adult conversation at dinner time does not interest
him.  So he eats downstairs in front of the TV while we adults talk.  Usually
he doesn't eat a lot of things.  He may eat a lot of *one* thing, though. He is
really into rice.  He never wants to eat anything warm or hot, always cold (he
is fine with room temp, though).  Since he eats enough fruits, veggies, and
protein over the course of the day (or week), I don't worry.  He has access to
whatever we are eating, but rarely eats more than one or two items at a meal.
Still, he is growing and is healthy, so I don't push him.  Since AJ is living
on air, but is still healthy, I wouldn't worry.

Good luck!  :-)

       Carol

    re: .46
    
    We also have the same rule in our house.  If they eat their dinner then
    they get a snack later on.  If the dinner is not eaten, NO snack.  That
    has been our rule for 5 years and so far no problems.
    
    I know when Jeffrey (now 5) was younger, I went to the Pedi and asked
    about him not eating anything.  He said not to worry, he will eat when
    he is hungry.  As far as playing with his food, we have not laid the
    rule that the table is for eating, and if your not going to eat then
    get down.
    
    When our second (Evan now 16 months) was a little thing, he too was
    cranky at dinner time.  We finally got into this routine.  My husband
    would hold him while I fixed my dinner.  I would fix my plate, that
    included cutting my meat, get settled at the table, then take the baby
    back.  I know that he probably spent the first four months of his life
    with some kind of crumb or another on his head.  I remember going to my
    mother-in-laws house for dinner one Sunday, and they were amazed at how
    well I could function with only one hand.
    
    Still today, at 5:30pm Evan is still at his crankiest and I generally
    have him on my left hip while I am finishing dinner.
    
    Don't worry this phase will pass, and you will pass into the next
    phase, it just get easier when they can begin to sit up and eat some
    crackers.
    
    Good luck!!!!!!!!!!
    
    lillian

re: .34

>    No wonder a friend of mine calls 5-7 p.m. "Hell Hour"... 

     Funny you should call it "Hell hour (singular)" when the period you
mention is two hourS long, and when you're in the middle of it, seems to last
forever.

     It seems to me if you can handle it, .43 had the best idea.  Eat after
Holly has gone to bed, especially if eating a peaceful meal is important to
you. If necessary, eat something while you are feeding her and getting her
ready for bed, so that you don't get too starved.  You mentioned kidS, so I
don't know if this is impractical for you, but it's worth considering.  If
you enjoy cooking, it may also enable you to prepare meals that take a bit
longer to cook, but are impractical if you try to eat at 6:00.

re: .46

     It seems to me that the focus should be on making sure that he eats the
right things, as opposed to ensuring that he eats a certain volume of food. 
As has been said in here before, no kid ever starved to death or even
suffered malnutrition, if nourishing food was available.  If he's not eating
dinner because he's eating junk food, then do what you can to cut out the
junk food (which I know is difficult if he is in daycare).  If it makes you
feel better, you might give him vitamin tablets to make sure that he gets
enough vitamins even if he doesn't eat much.  The key questions are: Is he
growing?  Is he healthy?  If so, then he's getting enough to eat.

>but we have started insisting that he will finish what's on his plate before
>he can leave the table

     IMO, it depends on whether he selected the portion or you did.  If he
selected the portion, then I agree with you.  If you selected the portion,
then I disagree, and think that you may be in for battles, and possibly
eating disorders, later.  

     As for the taking too long, that's a problem we have with our eight year
old.  We try to recognize that time pressures and an overly hectic schedule
probably caused US to eat faster than is desirable, so we try to take that
into account.  Often, he ends up eating alone, and we see nothing wrong with
that.  On some occasions, we've said that after a certain time, that the food
gets taken away, and there is no dessert or anything else to eat until
tomorrow morning.  

Clay

re : last few,

we have similar processes in our house.  My son, if he KNOWS he doesn't like
something we're having (like GREEN BEANS) can ask for a "no-thank-you" helping
and can specify if he wants LOTS of something (like MASHED POTATOES).  However,
once he sits down to a meal, he either eats what he has or gets no dessert/
snack later on - at times, when he's being particularly stubborn, he also gets
the same meal back (*nuked*) a day or meal later !

One thing we've tried hard to have him differentiate is between 
    "are you really full ?  well, if so, then that must mean you have 
     no room for anything more, even dessert !"     versus 
    "I don't like this and don't want any more".  
If it's the later and he's really made an attempt (especially if it's something
new), then dessert is still a possibility. 

And, FWIW, in our house, DESSERT IS NOT AUTOMATIC.  By this I mean we do not
have something for dessert every single night.  Desserts are special treats,
so if the meal's not finished BECAUSE he doesn't like something, he also knows
that means nothing between-meals until the next one !

Debbi J   

    This can easily be put in one of the sleep topics as well.
    
    I wanted to ask the user community out there if I'm setting myself up
    for major expectations (and problems) later on by having my 3 month
    old breastfeed as a method of falling asleep.  My pedi says that she will
    expect 'Mom' as the prerequisite for sleep.  It certainly seems to work
    and I am extremely fortunate that she sleeps thru the nite anywhere
    from 10-11 hours.  
    
    I don't carry on this routine every nite, but most.  Seems the nites
    I'm not home, she is fussy and won't go to bed until much later and
    only after much crying.
    
    I'm willing to sacrifice my evenings feeding her if the reward 
    is getting a good night's rest (for her and us), but am I setting
    myself up for bigger problems when she gets older?
    
    Comments/suggestions very welcome  
    
    Kathy

    Just to clarify, and THANKS for all your help so far.
    
    First, I have approached this with the pedi.  I'm not sure what I
    should be expecting as far as weight gain in the age bracket, but he
    has only gained something like 2 pounds in the last 5 months. He has
    thought grown, in shoulder width and height, I can stand him up and
    count his ribs!  The pedi's only suggestion was to try and get him to
    eat two Carnation instant breakfasts each day.  She says he can live on
    that alone, I have hesitations on that.
    
    Second, desserts in our house are just about non existant.  We made a
    big deal yesterday of having him make jello with fruit "all by himself"
    but I did the boiling water part, he did the rest and we all had *His*
    dessert after dinner last night.
    
    He will eat just about anything you put in front of him.  He does
    resist steak, so on those nights he gets a lean cheeseburger.  He
    loves, and is willing to try just about every veggies, including beets,
    broccoli and saurekraut!
    
    Because we are caught in a catch 22, his doctor who is helping with the
    toileting issues is telling us to give him bulk, he eats one or two
    metamucil cookies each day, plus fibercon in juice, he may be getting
    bulk but I question if he's getting protien enough.  He does take a
    prescription chewable vitamin with half strength floride each day, and
    he will drink tons of real juices and milk with no problem.  In fact
    chocolate milk is a real rare treat, and is in the category with
    dessert.  We often have to take away his milk because he will fill up
    on that instead of the food.
    
    Thanks again, and keep 'em coming!
    Lyn

re .51 (Breastfeeding to sleep)...

It depends on what you regard as a problem.

Seriously.

Your mileage will probably vary...  Elspeth was regularly nursed to sleep
at bedtime until she was around 2.  If we had regarded that regular practice
as a problem, then we would have had a problem --- I don't think we did have
a problem.  Eventually, we (well, Lynne :-) weaned her, first from having to
be nursed to sleep, then from having to have someone lie with her until she
was asleep.  It probably wasn't much harder or easier than it would have been
earlier, and it seemed like the right time to us.

	-Neil

    
    I agree with Neil.  I breastfed my daughter to sleep until she was 
    12 months.  I never regarded it as a problem.  But it was tough for
    someone else to get her down. To wean her, I offered her a cup of water
    while holding her until she got sleepy.
      
    But, she's always been a good sleeper [except when teething] so we never 
    worried about her associating sleeping with eating.  I do try and put her 
    in her crib before she falls asleep now.
    
    Rochelle

    I never knew a little baby who didn't associate sleep with some
    kind of food -- a bottle, a bedtime snack or something.  James
    got off the bottle at 15 months, but still wanted something to
    eat till he was around 2.5.  He's now 3.5 and still likes juice at bedtime.
    
    I didn't breastfeed my kids for very long, but I have always been
    under the impression that you're "supposed" to breast-feed at
    bedtime so you won't be uncomfortable full in the morning.  Is 
    that right?
    
    If your child regularly sleeps 10-11 hours at night, I'd be tempted
    to say, don't mess with success.  And she is only 3 months old.
    She'll be getting a lot more independent over the next few months,
    so enjoy the cuddle time!

         How's this for strange?!  My son (7 months) eats better AFTER he
    goes to sleep.  75%+ of the time we have to get him to go to sleep
    first or he will not take his bottle.  But, after he is asleep, he will
    eat 5-6 oz. no sweat.  So, one of us is usually spending our dinner
    time holding him to try to get him calm and asleep so that we can feed
    him.  Anyone ever heard of that before?!
    
    
                            ---Sue

    Lyn, 
    
    I don't remember if AJ has diet restrictions?  If so, that might
    rule out some of the things I'm going to suggest.  But my two
    oldest were both very light eaters -- for several years Kat was
    off the bottom of the doctor's height/weight chart.  I had people
    coming up in the grocery store to ask me if she was sick because
    she was so skinny. 
    
    The instant-breakfast suggestion isn't as bad as it sounds.  It's
    just a liquid vitamin pill.
    
    Timing:  is he getting too much fruit juice or soda in the
    afternoon, so he's not hungry by suppertime?  I've found with
    Steven that the artificially sweetened diet drinks are just as bad
    for killing appetite as the really sweet drinks are; I'd say it
    was the volume but plain water doesn't have the same effect.  
    
    If you're worried about protein, bulk, and general caloric intake,
    you might try adding things like beans (the navy bean kind, not
    the green bean kind, though those are good too), brown rice,
    cracked wheat (bulgur), etc.  Since they're complex carbohydrates,
    they have a good bit of energy for growth, they have a lot of
    fiber, and they're high in protein. 
    
    I usually make them as part of a one-dish meal (casserole of
    bulgur with mushrooms, chicken chunks, and peas, for instance) or
    as a side dish.  Brown rice pilaf is something you can make in
    large quantities in the oven, then reheat for a couple of days. 
    Something quick is a microwaved baked potato with cheese melted
    over it.  Peanut butter sandwich on whole-wheat or 5-grain bread.
    Lentil soup.  Pizza -- load on the vegetables and cheese (use
    low-fat if you're worried about fat, though that doesn't sound
    like something that AJ needs to worry about.) 
    
    Try beefing up breakfast.  Well, you don't need to add *beef* to
    breakfast, but my kids tend not to be hungry in the evening, so if
    they get a big meal at breakfast or dinner, their total intake
    tends to go up.  A bowl of whole-grain cereal with a sliced banana
    and a couple of slices of buttered toast will keep a kid going for
    hours.  Oatmeal with raisins in it.  Leftover pizza. 
    
    You might also want to consider adding dessert to the menu -- not
    cakes and such but things like raisins or nuts, puddings made with
    milk, fruits like peaches, pears, or apples poached in fruit juice
    (that means cut an apple in halves, take out the seeds, put it in
    a small saucepan or skillet, pour some apple juice over it, maybe
    fill the cavities with raisins and/or nuts, and simmer for 15 min.
    or so.  Less in the microwave.).  Graham crackers.  Fruit and
    cheese.  Apple, peach, pear crisp (slice fruit into an oven
    dish.  In a separate bowl combine a cup of rolled oats, a bit of
    brown sugar, and enough margarine to make it hold together --
    usually about 3 tablespoons.  Sprinkle it over the fruit.  Bake.)
    
    I'm getting carried away here so I'll stop, but this is an area I 
    know too much about, sigh.
    
    --bonnie

    Bonnie, thanks for the suggestions and No he doesn't have any diet
    restrictions, except the ones WE decided upon.
    
    We have been trying to eliminate morning hassle, by sending a bowl of
    cereal to school, but are rapidly discovering that breakfast at
    preschool is not enforced and he's eating little or nothing, so we're
    back at square one, which is insist he eat before leaving the house,
    eat enroute in the car, or hope he stops long enough to eat once he
    gets there.  We have started to eliminate the mineral oil, and the
    unifiber, and he eats one of the metamucil cookies on the ride home,
    which will keep him a little less demanding until supper is ready.
    
    I remembered a "long lost friend" had given me a recipie for a high
    protein cookie, and hope someone might have it still.  It was made of
    Quaker natural cereal, the granola type, some breakfast sausage meat,
    an egg and some other "good for you" type things.  It was baked into a
    cookie, but was like a meal substitute.  Does anyone have a recipie
    along these lines?
    
    We saw the doctor Monday, and this kid hasn't gained an ounce in a
    month, is this normal?
    
    Lyn

    
    Just to put your mind at ease -- maybe a little -- my youngest sister
    was very small at birth (5lb 3oz) for a full term baby. She was always
    a peanut when she was young and I remember she went for a while when
    she was somewhere between 4 and 6 when she didn't grow at all. I think
    she was weighing in at about 30-32 pounds. She eventually did grow and
    is now about 5'4" and weighs a whopping 105 pounds. I remember her
    going through high school (she's 22 now) and she would eat everything
    in sight and never gain an ounce. I just always figured her for a high
    metabolism since if I look at food I gain weight. Is it possible your
    son has a high metabolism and isn't gaining weight due to this??? I
    don't know your whole story so I may be way off here.
    
    Patty

Lyn,

My son David is nearly 4 years old.  I am fairly sure that when he has his
4-year checkup his weight will be no more than it was at his 3-year checkup,
and may well be a pound or two lower.  He is a very healthy and active kid,
and I have no concerns about his weight.  He has spent the past year adding
height without adding any weight - I always expected this would happen at
some point, because his genetic background is all tall and skinny, and
according to my mom, I also was a roly-poly baby who lengthened out into a
beanpole before age 5.

I'm not saying this is your situation, but I do think that perfectly
normal kids can go a *long* time without gaining weight.

						cheryl

re: .61

>  He has spent the past year adding height without adding any weight 

That's nuthin'. I've done that for 10 or 15 years.  Or do I have that 
backwards?

Clay

    re: .59
    
    >We saw the doctor Monday, and this kid hasn't gained an ounce in a
    >month, is this normal?
    
    Lyn, 
    
    It was sure normal for Kat at that age.  I think she may have gone
    the entire year from 3.5 to 4.5 and not gained more than half a
    pound.  Steven didn't gain much more than that. 
    
    Kat remembers that I used to feed her nuts for breakfast --
    peanuts usually, or broken-up walnuts.  High in protien and packed
    with calories, and she loved them. 
    
    And her favorite snack food was "trail mix" -- equal parts
    raisins, chocolate chips, and broken-up walnuts.  Thrown in some
    coconut if you like it, or use other dried fruits.  
    
    --bonnie