Conference moira::parenting_v3

    I am so very sorry for the situation you are in, and for your children
    (born and unborn).  I am also a true believer that the best things in
    life may come in the form of a disaster, so if you can subscribe to
    this philosophy perhaps it would help you to cope.
    
    First of all, in most states, a divorce cannot be finalized during a
    pregnancy.  If either of you filed, it would remain pending until the
    pregnancy terminated, after which issues of child support, division of
    property, bills, etc... would be decided.
    
    You didn't really indicate what you want (divorce or reconciliation). 
    Assuming you have little or no hopes for the marriage, I would say it
    is best for all concerned - especially your son - for him to move out
    completely.  It is too damaging for your little boy, for you to
    "separate but not separate."  If he thinks your son won't be the wiser
    he's underestimating him.
    
    If you have hopes that a reconciliation is possible, then you should
    probably try to maintain as much of a "normal" relationship as possible
    - and CONTINUE WITH COUNSELING!
    
    IMO, if you want to know your husband's true feelings, you need to give
    him some ultimatums around your relationship BEFORE telling him about
    your pregnancy.  Knowing about it may cloud his feelings.  It is a risk
    to do it this way (and I know I'll probably hear about it from our male
    readers), but it is the only way to know how he honestly feel about
    *YOU*.
    
    Good luck, and keep us posted.  I went through a similar situation to
    yours, so send mail if you want some extra support!
    
    Kristen

    The first thing that comes to my mind is that your husband has been
    through a great ordeal, being wrongfully accused of sexual abuse.  His
    self esteem is probably shot and I'm sure he feels as though everyone
    suspects "something" went on.  
    
    The first question has to be what do BOTH of you want, reconciliation
    or divorce.  This has to be decided together WITH YOUR HUSBAND HAVING
    THE KNOWLEDGE THAT YOU ARE PREGNANT.  If you keep this from your husband 
    (and all I can tell you is how I would react) it will be very detrimental 
    to your relationship.  The trust that remains would be shattered (IMO).
    This may be the new beginning you are looking for, something to build
    on together.  I don't buy into the fact that him not knowing will be
    better and I need to stress this to you because I think it is just the
    opposite of what you need to do.
    
    You have both been through some trying times.  It is time to try and
    put some stability back in your lives and this may be the vehicle which
    could do just that.  Another suggestion I would have is to start going
    to church together (I don't know whether you do or not), this too can
    be the source of great stregnth and healing.  I wish you and your
    husband well in trying to get things back together for your own and
    your families sake.  Feel free to share this with your husband if you
    would like.  Hang in there, the sun always comes out again no matter
    how bad the storm.
    
    Mike

This is being entered for the basenoter.

       Carol duBois, PARENTING co-moderator

*****************************************************

Hi, and thanks for the nice thoughts.  They really do help!

Now for the latest and greatest in developments.  With the assistance of our
counselor late last week, my husband decided to move to his parents starting
last Friday.  Our son keeps asking when dad is coming home.  Boy, does that tug
at my heart strings, but it's necessary.  He has, on the other hand, been
rather well behaved, I have been real careful not to raise my voice, and to
control my anger, short patience, and raising of my voice. 

My husband was at the house from mid morning Saturday till after supper. 
Although I didn't go anywhere, I stayed out of the way of both of them.  The
"boys" made pizza, I took the opportunity to clean closets, and even get a much
needed nap, since I haven't been sleeping well lately, all things considered. 
We were sociable to one another, and the father and son time was more precious
for a change. 

My husband wants us to get a sitter and wants to pick me up for a "date"
Saturday night.  He's requested I wear a certain outfit he bought me for
Christmas a couple years ago, rather sensuous it is.  I feel fat in it, but I
guess I have to try a little, too, to make this thing work. 

I'm seeing the counselor this week - alone.  He feels he no longer needs the
counselor.  I am having an ultrasound tomorrow morning first to see how far
along I am, and to see if this is a viable pregnancy, since I've had several
miscarriages in the last couple years.  After that I will probably make a
decision whether or not to tell my husband, probably not if it looks like this
isn't viable, and maybe in a couple weeks if it does look viable.  

I'm just so confused at this point.  Of course I'm not sleeping at night
worth anything and the fatigue level is making daily living actions difficult.
My son and I spent an enjoyable day at the beach yesterday and then rented
a couple of children's movies, complete with popcorn!  Something his dad would
never think of doing.

So that's where I'm at.

    I know that this a tuff time for all of you.  But keep you chin up...we
    are all praying for you that things work out OK!!!  Good luck.  Keep us
    informed..
    
    
    
    
    Lillian

    It looks like things are progressing, not in leaps and bounds but one
    step at a time.  Remember, even te longest journey begins with the
    first steps.  Keep on going, it seems as though there is something
    there worth salvaging.  It seems that there have been circumstances in
    the past which have led you all to have doubts about the other, let it
    mend itself.  I still suggest telling your husband.  You all are in it
    together.
    
    Mike

    I also feel that you should tell your husband about your pregnancy.
     Just because it may alter his feeling towards you, doesn't mean
    that it should hidden from him.  So what if it makes a difference
    to him that you are pregnant and he decides now to make an even
    more heartily effort for keeping the family together.  "Love" is
    not the only thing that keeps a marriage together.  I think that
    if the two can keep a respectable relationship, you could really
    value and enjoy his companionship and support during your pregnancy.
     Also, your son would have both of his parents.  
    
    I feel separation is natural at times.  A marriage, family for that
    matter, should be flexible.  It's like a pair of your favorite jeans.
     You may gain, lose or remain at a level of weight.  Times, you
    lose weight and you need a belt to keep those pants up, other times
    you gain weight and need to put the pants away for awhile or let
    the bulges show for the rest to see.  That's a natural part of life.
     No two people can always get along.  Then there's times, when those
    pants fit just perfectly and you wear them whenever you want feel
    so comfortable.  That's how I see marriage.
    
    Perhaps you can loosen a button and take it easy.  What's so bad
    'bout the husband sleeping on the couch.  It's unnatural for 2 mad
    folks to sleep side by side in the same bed.  So what, your son
    sees that the two of you are in a "bout".  That's O.k.  Don't play
    games with yourself or your family.  Let the whole thing out!  
    Be mad if you want to be.  If you want some space, take it.  Let
    your husband, the boy's father take him, should the 2 of you live
    separately.  He'll be fine.  Take some rest!  
    
    I have a feeling your husband doesn't want to let his family go.
    So, you really have a lot!t
                               

    I'm in a similar situation now .... I've moved out of the house, and
    the boys (3 and 6) switch between their dad and me, every other day.
    There were a lot of difficulties on our marriage, and talking over the
    years never got us anywhere.  
    
    Being a little further 'into this' than you are so far, may I offer
    some thoughts;
    
    o As hard as this has all been now, it gets much, much, much harder. 
    Just yesterday I picked up the boys after daycare and Jason(3) screamed
    and cried for almost an hour because he didn't want to be at my
    apartment and just wanted to be home and wanted Mommy to live in the
    blue house ... and that wasn't the worst of what we've gone through.
    
    o I noticed a touch of competitiveness in your note "something his
    father would never think of"  Try as hard as you can -- and then harder
    still -- to not be judgemental of your husband when it comes to your
    son.  We are in hyper-competitive mode right now and it's really heart
    wrenching.  Just Because my husband is at the house and the boys'
    things are there, and he has more financial flexibility than I do, it's
    much easier for him to do or buy things for the boys.  They come over
    to the apt., and can't understand that we can't afford everything
    they'd like.  Try to let your husband have the time with your son, in
    the way that they see fit, and you and your son take the time the way
    you like, and DON'T (If at **ALL** possible!!!!!!!) ever compare what
    he does with you versus what he does with Dad.  You may REALLY want to
    make comments like "Well, isn't this nicer than when Dad...{whatever}",
    but you'll end up putting your son in the middle and tearing you and
    your husband apart.
    
    o As for your date - I think that's GREAT!!!  As for the outfit - I
    guess it's not a big deal, *BUT*, may I suggest trying to be very open
    with your feelings.  I do believe that any time any marriage reaches
    the point of separation, a large part of the problem is that the couple
    has not been communicating effectively for some time.  For whatever
    reason - that doesn't matter.  I DO think though, that if you are going
    to TRY to put things back together again, you must try to be completely
    open and honest with everything that you are feeling.  It has been
    astounding to me how many times (especially recently) that my husband
    has mis-read what I'm thinking.  When I was very sad, he thought I was
    angry with him.  When I was angry with myself, he thought I was
    repulsed by him.  My silence never helped him understand.  I REALLY
    think you need to talk about every last little emotion.
    
    If the outfit makes you feel fat, but you're willing to wear it anyway
    because you want to try to please him -- *TELL HIM*!!!  He'll
    appreciate that you wore it, and will probably make more of a point to
    notice.  If the evening doesn't work out perfect, you won't resent
    having worn it so much.  If you wear it and feel like you're making a
    sacrifice for him, it's not going to work.  Wear it because you want to
    make him happy - not because you feel Obligated!  If you only feel
    obligated, then wear something else!! 
    
    You're at a time when everyone is stripped right down to their barest
    selves.  Each of you have wide gaping wounds, and it sounds like each
    would like to heal that pain together.  Before you can ever do that,
    you need to find out how they got there, and you have to make sure that
    when you close those wounds, that you close each other in - not out!! 
    Let him into your heart and feel every last little emotion - and insist
    on the same from him.  You seem to think that it's worth salvaging.  If
    that's true (or if there's even a CHANCE!), then realize that you have
    the chance to make your marriage be just whatever you want from a
    marriage.  It might help to sit down and both of you write down what
    you're looking for in a marriage and relationship, what's most
    important, least important, and HOW important.  Be Specific!  Don't say
    "Do something romantic once in a while", say "Take a walk by the lake
    in the moonlight, holding hands, whispering softly to each other" (or
    whatever).
    
    I'm probably not the best person to be saying these things because of
    my situation, but if there's any hope at all, you REALLY REALLY should
    try for it --- because giving up is much much more difficult than you
    could ever imagine!!
    
    If you'd like to talk off line, please send mail or call (881-0877)
    
    Good Luck!

    Are the sexual harrassment charges at the root of your problems?  Did
    the probmlems start before the charges or as a result of them?  Has
    this made you suspicious of your husband?  Are there other extenuating
    circumstances (him cheating, etc)?
    
    Mike

This note is from the basenoter.

       Carol duBois, PARENTING co-moderator

**********************************************************

I saw the doctor Tuesday for an Ultrasound.  My pregnancies are "fragile" at 
best, and the Ultrasound showed pretty much nothing in the uterus.  The doctor
thought the pregnancy might be under 3 weeks, not the predicted 6 to 10 we had
thought. But by that afternoon I knew the truth was that this baby was not to
be and have started spotting.  Yesterday I passed what looked like a cord, or
very large clot.  Today the spotting is quite heavy, but being at work, and
especially being in touch with the noters, is what I need the most. 

I decided to tell my husband Tuesday evening about the pregnancy, and the
fact that it is about to end.  He seemed more surprised than anything, but
at the same time was very supportive of me.  He even offered to not return
to his parents that night in case the pain or bleeding became out of control.
I told him to return to his parents, and I'd call if I need him.

He stopped by the house yesterday on his way home, we had a long talk, and
even a few quiet intimate moments, and we agreed to get away just for tonight.
My sister-in-law will take our child, this will be our first night away without
him since his birth, several years now.  And he's reserved a "suite" in a nice
hotel, with a room facing a lake.  

I don't want us to end up permanently separated, in fact my dearest hope is
that we'll be back together soon.  I'm finding the house maintenance alone
(grass cutting, pool maintenance, leaky faucets, etc.) overwhelming, and the
constant question of "when's daddy coming home" really heart breaking.

.8 asked if this had been going on since before the harassment charges,
well in a word sort of.  We have always bickered, but not to this extent.
Do I think he did anything, NO.  I think it was misinterpreted actions and
words that were blown out of proportion.  What sort made it happen was the
fact that we literally spent every reserve dollar to hire a lawyer, and
at time literally, had no money for food or clothes.  Then an old girlfriend 
of his from high school suddenly surfaces, he claims she's just a
friend whom he can talk to freely, but what bothers me is that she turns
up suddenly, out of the blue and she's just left her husband #2!  Then all
of a sudden he wants a night or two to go out by himself, offering me no
explanation of where he's going or what he's doing, or I get vague excuses
of "a bunch of the guys from work are getting together".

We've agreed, so far, that if we get back together we'll be moving away from
the town we're in, to escape the people who filed the harassment charges,
and sort of start life new.  He's agreed to grow back his beard, which I
positively love, and literally cried when he shaved it off.  And I in turn
have agreed to try and dress more "for him", and not be so aware of my
rather plump body.  I know I'm big but apparently that bothers me more than
him.  

I am sort of looking forward to this weekend, and our "special night together"!

    One sad one for the end of this fragile pregnancy, and the physical
    discomfort/pain you're going through.
    
    And one of relief that you and your husband have been talking so
    productively, that you'll have tonight (Rx for relief!), that he'll
    give you back his beard and that he doesn't think you're <whatever--
    tubby?!>.
    
    Glad the noting community is helping you.  It's wonderful to have
    worldwide resources & experience at your fingertips.
    
    Leslie

    Best wishes for you tonight!
    
    I think making time for just the two of you, without the kids
    around, is one of the most important things you can do to keep a
    marriage healthy.  I know it helps us a lot to have one night a
    week when our oldest daughter watches the young ones and Neil and
    I go out to dinner, or to do something cheaper if the budget's
    tight.  Sometimes we even just go for a long walk.  Maybe you
    could arrange something like that more often?

    I know what you mean with the clothes and the attractiveness.  
    It's been a shock to me to realize that though I gained a lot of
    weight that I can't seem to lose last time around, Neil still
    seems to find me as attractive as ever.  For a while I couldn't
    even stand to look at myself in the mirror.  And even though I
    wanted to make love, I couldn't bear the thought of having sex
    because I looked so awful I couldn't imagine making love to me,
    and if I couldn't, how could he possibly want to?  Convoluted, and
    it seems kind of silly in retrospect, but that was how I felt. 
    
    But I took a new job where I have to dress up a bit more than I
    was used to, and a funny thing happened -- when I started paying
    more attention to dressing to look nice, I felt better.  "Fat" and
    "beautiful" aren't mutually exclusive categories . . . 
    
    --bonnie

Well????????????????????????  How did it go??????????????????

This is a reply from the basenoter.

         Carol duBois, PARENTING co-moderator

******************************************************************

The weekend itself was quite nice. My manager allowed me to leave early
on Friday so I could stop and pick up some nice wine, cheese and crackers,
go home pack a bag for our son, and a few "special" things for us.  We had
a lovely suite in a resort type hotel, with a room overlooking the lake,
and a few dozen ducks running all over the grounds (we fed them what was
left of our crackers Saturday morning).  Initially, I thought the weekend
might be a disaster.  I was late getting to the hotel and he was in a complete
rage by the time I got there.  He, too, had thought ahead and gotten a bottle
of champagne, cheese spread and crackers.  I had also picked up a special
flavor of soda he likes, to try and be extra nice.  We enjoyed the pool,
jacuzzi, a walk by the lake after dinner.  So many intimate moments, I
really thought things were starting to heal.

But I guess I was wrong. He was at home Saturday, Sunday, and by yesterday
morning I began to think I want him out.  He started bickering, staying up
late without me, not picking up after himself and so on. I actually told
him to pick up our son at daycare and stay at his parents for the night.
He came home after the hurricane passed, and again it was verbal abuse,
staying up late, watching "adult" movies, and being rude.  So I've suggested
he make a list of things he wants to "negotiate" including changes, and
I will do the same.  This on the advise of our counselor.  He probably won't,
so I'm not too sure what my next move is.  At this point my tension level
is about to explode, and I guess I just don't want to give up yet, but
just not sure where it's going. 

The pregnancy is not an issue any longer, that was a miscarriage that happened
last week.  He seemed to, after first telling him, act as if it wasn't an
issue, and has in fact, told me he doesn't want any more children.  His 
reasons seemed selfish, such as that would keep us from spontaneous adventures,
and I'd probably have to stop working, he seems to want my paycheck more than
me lately, he keeps urging me to work more than my current part time hours.
I just don't feel I can do that with everything going on.  He has also not
mentioned that anything is wrong at home to any of his coworkers.  I have
a hard time figuring that reasoning out.  He seems embarrassed, and
keeps making it seem as if I was the one totally at fault, and asked him
to leave.

I'm going to suggest he stay at his parents and we can talk, and maybe
try just a Saturday night "date" this coming weekend.

>He has also not
>mentioned that anything is wrong at home to any of his coworkers.  I have
>a hard time figuring that reasoning out.  He seems embarrassed, and
>keeps making it seem as if I was the one totally at fault, and asked him
>to leave.

I'd have to say that this is probably a smart move on his part.  When some
close friends (now divorced, but...) first started seeing a counselor many
years ago, the first thing he told them was DON'T TELL ANYONE YOU ARE HAVING
PROBLEMS - ESPECIALLY NOT PARENTS (in his case that would be difficult to
do, however!)!!!  Not only will they offer their own "advice" to cloud your
decisions, but you will constantly be "watched" if you end up working things
out.  Any little thing you do will be "interpreted" (they must be getting along
better - they went to lunch today; things must be getting worse - she showed
up crying today; etc...).

FWIW

    I cannot offer any words of wisdom or advice, but I do send you my
    warmest thoughts.  Please stay in touch with us, seek the comfort of
    your friends, stay with your counselor.  You're going through alot
    right now.  I hope things work out for the best.  
    
    marcia