Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Digital has a Corporate Childcare Progarm Office. I believe Erica Fox
    is the program manager. You might want to check with your local PSA for
    info. or with Erica.

Also see NOTED::PARENTING_V2 notes 1455.* and 2157.*.

       Carol dB, PARENTING co-mod

<why Digital doesn't offer a daycare ...

My best guess would be LIABILITY!!!, followed by numerous other reasons
(assuming, of course, that you're eluding to an ON-site daycare center).

When Juli was first born, OH HOW I wanted an inhouse daycare center.  Now
that two years have passed I now realize that if she were "JUST three floors
down and six corridors over, I'd be going out of my way (and finding all
kinds of excuses) to drop in and see her.  I also know that those "expected
1-minute HI's" would end up to be 20 minute visits.  And although I would
get satisfaction out of dropping in and out of Juli's daily routine, I'm
not sure Juli could handle the continuous interruptions ... actually, we'd
probably BOTH suffer continous severance anxiety and frustration!

I flex-houred the first year and I am so thankful that we did AND
survived the sacrifices necessary to make it a "happy" first year.  Then
we transitioned into part-time homecare for a few months before transitioning
into a fulltime learning center environment (when Juli was 17'ish months of
age).

I have to honestly say ... the learning center arrangement is working out
GREAT for ALL of us.  Close enough that we can drop in if we REALLY happen
to be going by that way (but far enough away that you're not dropping in
several times and every day).  Jim works 1/2 mile from the center, so he
walks over 2-3 times a week for a short 15-minute visit.  He goes out of his
way NOT to interrupt Juli's activities (oftening watching her in the pool
or in the playground from an indoor window).  They are unplanned, unexpected
visits ... and the daycare center WELCOMES him! ... and it finds it rewarding,
refreshing and fulfilling to see her "playful and happy" without 
distracting her.

I think Juli would enjoy and adapt to any learning center-like daycare
environment ... but Mommy (and Daddy!) would NO DOUBT do much better
if it were to remain OFFsite!

My PERSONAL feelings on this.
Dottie

PS:  Perhaps a black one-way picture window would help solve the problem
     of "interrupted" visits ... but it still wouldn't solve my deserve to
     walk by the center a minimum of 10X daily!!

I think the liability issue is bogus.  Other companies have in-house daycare,
and you don't hear about a liability problem.

As regards too-frequent visits, how does that differ from too-frequent
coffee (or notesfile) breaks?

I still like the idea of onsite daycare, especially for nursing mothers.
I would not switch Evan over, but I might use it for the next child.

       Carol

    I'm pretty sure that a couple years ago, in the NRO, MRO areas there
    was an active "Daycare Committee".  Since nothing came of it, and no
    one seems to have heard of it, I'm assuming it died a natural death.  I too
    wish Daycare were more available to us on site.  I do recall one of the
    issues was large increases in liability insurance to the company.
    The Commerce Insurance Company in Wesbster (MA) has one of the best
    on-site daycare around with, from what I've heard, a huge waiting list.
    Maybe we should find out what they're doing right??
    
    Someone mentioned time lost by visiting the center, think of it this
    way, we probably spend that much time, if not more chatting with
    coworkers about our kids during the day, if not calling the provider
    to make sure everything is ok, or running to the daycare at lunch to
    drop off something, give a medication etc, or having to leave work
    exactly on time, or early just "in case" you run into a traffic jam
    between work and your center, and you are penalized by the center if
    you are late picking up.  You've also got the assurance that the center
    will be there for you, every day that DEC works.  I've run into
    problems Daycare being closed on holidays that everyone else gets off, 
    except DEC, what do you do then?
    
    Lyn                                                

Digital does, there is a Digital run Cr�che in Reading, England.

But you meant U.S., didn't you?

/Dave :-)

    RE: 7
    
    Yes, I do mean US, but maybe the people in Reading can give some input.
    Do you know who runs the Creche in Reading?
    
    Thanks for all the input so far,
    
    Joe

Re.8:

I don't know. I have spoken to them a while ago though, I just rang the DEC Park,
Reading switchboard, and asked for the Cr�che. The number is 830 3111.

You might also get some info from asking in the MARVIN::UK_Digital VAXnotes
conference, topic #344. Ignore references to RDGENG::People_First VAXnotes
conference in that topic, it's closed now.

/Dave.

    The creche is not "the Digital creche", (according to personnel)
    although many people who don't use it think it is.  Digital wants to 
    take no part in the running of it, and it is self financing.
    
    The creche is in a Digital building, but not one where many people
    work. It is about 3 minutes drive from Digital Park, a large facility
    in Reading.
    Digital set the creche up about 18 months ago, by giving a contract
    to a company that runs other nurseries.  Digital paid the set up costs,
    including some really nice toys and stuff.
    I'm told that they don't pay rent or for the telephone or electricity -
    but I don't know that for sure. This seems to conflict with the idea
    that it is self financing, so maybe they do pay, but we have been
    unable to get a definite answer about it (unless anyone else knows
    different of course).
    
    I pay 19 pounds a day for a baby who goes three days a week.  It's a
    slightly cheaper rate for a full week, and cheaper for children over 2.
    
    The idea is that only children of Digital parents go there, but because
    it took a while to fill it there are some "non-Digital children" there,
    but preference is given to Digital children. It took a while to fill it
    because people didn't want to change their existing childcare
    arrangements. It's getting filled up as people come back from maternity
    leave and use it for the baby.
    
    The implications of Digital not wanting to be involved in the running
    of the creche are that if you have any sort of problem, you have to
    sort it out with the creche management, and Digital will not get
    involved.
    
    In my opinion, the creche is really good, and the standard of care is
    high. My baby settled down there very quickly and is happy.  It made my
    return to work easy, and I'm glad it exists.  I wish Digital would take
    a little more responsiblity for it, but I suppose nothing is perfect.
                                                              

    sorry, forgot to sign my reply!
    
    Heather

    RE: .0
    
    Because DEC doesn't want to provide any employee benefits it doesn't
    have to, and has no pressure requiring it to (government, union, etc)
    
    Ultimately, of course, the refusal to recognize the realities of the 
    modern working world might indirectly affect the company (through loss
    of workers to more enlightened companies), but this is probably a bit
    too subtle for management to pick up on -- particularly a male, white,
    middle-aged management.  Anyways, we're talking about a whole country
    that, in general, accepts third-world levels of social services and
    really believes we should all handle this stuff ourselves.  DEC's
    attitude is just a symptom, not a cause.
    
    Kit

Re.12:

I think your comments do not apply to DEC in general. They do not match my
experience in the UK or other Digital subsidiaries in Europe.

/Dave.

    re: .13 - exactly my point, although apparently I did not make myself
    clear: Digital gets away with less in the U.S. because it *can* get
    away with less.  The rest of the industrialized world (S.Africa and
    Japan possibly accepted) essentially decided between 50 and 100 years
    ago that a certain level of services (health, education, other social
    services) were to be provided in one way or another. End of debate,
    except around the edges, over extent and implementation.  Here we
    continue by the myth that each person or family can or should provide
    for an array of services that Europeans simply expect as part of the
    social compact.  So, DEC's *U.S* policy is that child care is the
    family's responsibility and not the company's (even non-subsidized but
    company sponsered), that providing it would make us uncompetitive (the
    reverse is more likely true, as evidenced by companies that do take
    this seriously), etc, blah, blah.
    
    Kit

    Well, the debate may have ended, "except around the edges", in
    Europe, but it's not over here, and why should it be?  This is
    the kind of issue that people can disagree over forever, as it
    is essentially about what people owe each other and the purpose
    of government.  It's a debate which has been going on since the
    dawn of civilization, and there's no objective way I know of to
    settle it.
    
    Please don't assume that just because everybody in Western Europe
    expects one service or another that it's automatically The One 
    Right Way To Live.
    
    I find myself somewhat resenting what seems to be a "I know the
    real truth" tone in your note; I hope I'm misinterpreting phrases
    like "gets away with" and "by the myth", but it seems you assume
    that no good person could possibly disagree with you on this issue.
    
    		-John Bishop

    Re: .15
    
    John,
    
    Yes, indeed I do believe that the US attitude with respect to social
    services in general, and to the care and nurturing of our children in
    specific, is inhumane, wasteful, and detrimental to the health of our
    society and the health of families.  In particular, our attitude
    towards society's role in the care and education of children is
    completely out of touch with the realities of family life in the late
    20th century. 
    
    Further, I believe that we need to be aware that this is not necessary,
    that we are pretty much alone as a wealthy nation in this attitude, and
    that there are good reasons why most modern industrial nations wouldn't
    dream of washing its hands of these problems, as we do.
    
    I'm sorry you disagree, but it is my right -- and my duty -- as a
    citizen and a parent to express these opinions. I can cite no better
    reason for doing this than the touching naivite of the base noter who
    asked why Digital does not have on-site day care.  And I certainly will
    not be intimidated into a silence that supports the status quo by the
    suggestion that opinions that do not accord with yours constitute proof
    that I "assume that no good person could possibly disagree with you on
    this issue".
    
    Kit

Re: .16

Rubbish.  Nobody was trying to intimidate you into silence.  .15 said 
there are two sides to the question with reasonable people on both sides 
(and I'd add unreasonable people on both sides.)  The question has a long 
history and if the soft sciences had methods for doing proofs, it could 
probably be proved that the question will never be settled.

>>>==>PStJTT

    I'm not trying to intimidate you, Kit, and I agree that you have
    a right to express your opinions and to try to persuade others
    to implement them, as do all of us.
    
    How do you react when I say that you (and all of Western Europe) are 
    the ones "completely out of touch with realities of family life" and 
    are "washing your hands of these problems", as I really believe you
    and they are?  I'm just asking for a slighly less adversarial approach,
    not silence.
    
    While I disagree with you, I'm not inclined to preach these days,
    and have (almost) given up debate in NOTES.  But please note that
    I _don't_ support the status quo!
    
    		-John Bishop

    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    I was going to write what was looking like a long essay on the
    history of these differences, but then decided it was going to be
    too long and involved and wouldn't really address the problem anyway.
    
    Suffice it to say that in a nutshell, the difference between the
    two philosophies is based on who should be responsible for the well
    being of our children.  The individual or society.  And the problem
    is how we see such things as day-care in this framework ... if we
    see it there at all!  We can make all kinds of generalizations on
    how N. Americans see this and how European see it and we'd see why
    the two sides are di-polar.
    
    Given ideal situations, both approaches should work fine, but
    the situations are not ideal, and regretably, it seems, in North
    America (I'm Canadian and include Canada) that for things like day-care
    if you are poor, and hence most in need of day-care to earn a living,
    you cannot get it.  For those who can afford already afford day care,
    it is available.  A horrible poverty trap ... and I believe that is
    where Europeans look so derogartorily on the American experience.  The
    impression is that for social services (like health care, day care
    etc.) those that have get .... those that are poor don't.  Money counts
    for too much in society.
    
    I spent many years in the UK (and was born there) and have seen both
    sides of the coin.  I believe a path down the middle is called for
    since I have seen abuse of social systems by people who have no need,
    and I've seen people caught in a poverty trap in desparate need to
    get out and with every desire to get out, but the lack of social
    services prevents it.  I have seen too those who take advantage of
    social servicesand have no desire to stand for themselves.  I believe
    society, which includes individuals, governments and employers must
    start taking a little more responsibility to ensure that people
    caught in poverty traps have a means to get out, and if that means
    ensuring that there is affordable, employer provided daycare, then
    so beit.  There can be side benefits to employer provided daycare
    like improved productivity and loyalty.
    
    Stuart who wishes that North American employers would also follow the
    lead of European employers in vacation allowances too ...  
    
    
    

    Moderator note:
    
    As we like to say here in PARENTING, "People, please be gentle with one
    another."
    
    This topic has the potential to get very heated up.  Please think
    carefully before you reply to see if it really furthers the
    conversation.  
    
    We had an earlier daycare debate in 948.0-948.105, for cross-
    referencing.  948 focussed on the merits of daycare versus stay-at-
    home care.  At several points it dealt with US attitudes in particular.
    
    Laura
    Co-mod