Conference moira::parenting_v3

    I don't think your boyfriend is doing anything wrong.  Sometimes, in
    the heat of play, personal needs are forgotten until it is too late.
    Any incentive that will help the child remember and make remembering
    the pattern instead of forgetting will work.  Of course he ought to set
    a limit by which time the child should be doing it on his own with no
    reward.  
    
    I gave my son rewards for about a month for doing all the things he
    was supposed to do to get ready for school (3rd grade) with no
    prompting from parents.  It worked.  The positive reenforcement
    was enough to change his behavior pattern.
    
    Anyway it is a much better alternative then yelling at him every time
    he makes a mistake.

    My 5 year old son has the same problem.  The doctor said this is VERY
    normal - the child is simply too "busy" to get into the bathroom on
    time.  He suggested that I remind my son every two hours to go to the
    bathroom, even use a timer if necessary. 
    
    The method your boyfriend is using sounds great.  I may even use it for
    my son (although he HAS gotten better lately).  There is NOTHING
    wrong with rewarding good behaviour!  This method is recommended for
    many behavioral problems.  It's similar to the "Star Charts" used for
    reinforcing good habits.  I'm going to use a similar method on my
    oldest son who has a problem with accepting critisism.  You give the
    child 50 poker chips at the beginning of the week.  When the behaviour
    is bad, you take a chip away.  If good, you add a chip.  At the end of
    the week you count how many chips are left and assess a reward.  We
    decided that each chip is worth a penny so, 50 chips adds $.50 to his
    allowance.  You can also do it as, 20 chips = ice cream treat, 30 chips
    = small toy, etc.  My son is very excited about starting this - hope it
    works!
    
    You boyfriend sounds like a very good parent.

    	A little compassion could also be used. An 8 year old boy is old
    enough to know that "this is not right" and old enough to feel ashamed
    about the situation.

    	Throughout my childhood, I had problems wetting my pants during the
    day, mostly this would occur when I was frightened or seemed to lose
    emotional control (as in excessive laughing or being extremely
    embarrassed). I learned that I was BAD and that I was doing something
    that only babies did. At a very early age (grammar school) I learned
    how to spill things on myself to make it look like an accident and not
    me wetting my pants. I spent many years trying to hide this secret. My
    parents chose to ignore it and pretend that nothing was wrong. The only
    thing that that did was to make me think that they were stupid for not
    noticing, and that I must be invisible, and that they didn't care.

    	I realize now that the wetting incidents were a result of some
    psychological trauma that I had experienced and continued to experience
    during my childhood. It took a long time to get this under control. In
    fact even just a few years ago, I had some bed wetting as a result of
    being terrified of some impending surgery. Imagine that! A grown adult
    having this sort of problem! I made myself discuss it with my Doctor
    instead of trying to pretend it wasn't happening and her response was
    that with my surgical history she would also probably be wetting the
    bed. Once I addressed the fear aspect, the problem went away and did
    not return. The point of that story was that I got VALIDATION of a
    problem and understanding of why it was occurring. I was not condemned
    for what I was doing.

    	I'm not sure that I have any advice for you except that punishment
    will not work here (and that includes calling the boy lazy). The
    actual wetting is punishment enough for the kid (trust me on this one).

    	If *my* child were going through this, based on my personal
    experience, I would do the following,

    	1. Get the child checked out by a medical physician to ensure that
    nothing is physically wrong

    	2. Get some psychological help for both the child and myself on how
    to approach this, there must be books or a counselor that you can talk
    to.

    	3. Do not ignore that this is happening. For example if the child
    wets the bed at night, put rubber sheets on the bed. Let the kid know
    that you are trying to take care of him even though he has lost some of
    his personal control.

    	You also mention that this child is your boyfriend's child. That
    seems to indicate either a divorce or a death. I would look into that
    as well to see if there is some unresolved anger/fear/abandonment/etc.

    	I guess that ultimately what I am saying is that this is not the
    child's fault. No child enjoys going through this experience.

    			Wendy

    Paula,
    
    I definitely agree with the other answers to this question.
    It is quite common for kids to get so bound up in what they
    are doing that they neglect to come in the house to use the
    toilet until it is too late.
    
    A child should *never* be shamed for wetting, it only makes
    the situation worse, as does punishment.
    
    Positive rewards are the best way to deal with this. 
    
    If the child comes in the house wet, the parent should matter of
    factly tell them to go wash up, put on dry pants and leave the
    wet ones by the washing machine. (i.e. *never* on the bedroom
    floor or in the hamper).
    
    I'd also second the suggestion to have the child examined by
    a physician to be sure there is no organic problem.
    
    Bonnie

    Paula,
    
    As the other notes have said, this is pretty normal, but it's a
    good idea to make sure it's not a symptom of a medical problem.  
    Allergies can also cause incontinence in some people; it probably
    wouldn't be a bad idea if your boyfriend took his son to the
    doctor.  There can also be structural factors with weak muscles.
    
    --bonnie

    My daughter (5), my husband and I just recently went through this.  I was so
    frustrated.  It was two and three times a day.  Little stressful. 
    Everyday, I'd come home from work to wet pants from the daycare.  I
    tried everyting.  First, I made sure it was not a medical problem ie:
    UTI.  I told her that she couldn't go to kindergarten unless she
    stopped having "accidents".  I told her she smelled (pretty mean, huh)? 
    The thing that finally worked was getting some little stars, making a
    chart and putting a star in each square for everyday she was dry.  I did 
    it for about three
    months.  To me, it seemed like it was never going to end, but not
    getting upset and doing the chart really helped us.  Daycare also helped 
    a lot by asking her
    every hour of so to try and go to the bathroom.  She has just recently
    stopped wetting and the very few times she does, it's no big deal.  
    She goes
    upstairs, cleans herself with wet wipes and changes.  The she rinses
    her pants or whatever in the sink.  I think it's time for a visit to 
    Toys R Us.  We ususally
    get her something special when she does really well.
    
    Carole

    Well - I dunno.

    Whenever we've tried "bribery" (no slur intended - I simply don't have
    a better word) with either of our kids it has failed miserably.  My
    children love material things as much as the next - they just haven't
    been effectively motivated by their promise.

    In fact they almost seemed to have relished the opportunity to "prove"
    their stubbornness or will power.

    L.

I'm the one with the 10 year old wetting his bed every night.  I took the
advice of one of my fellow noters and contacted Dr. Ferber at the Boston 
Children's hospital.  I strongly urge your boyfriend to have his son checked
for any medical problems (bladder infection, insufficient bladder size, 
insufficient muscular control).  If there is nothing wrong, help him stay
clean (washing, changing, etc.) in a matter of fact way.  

I reward Mark when he doesn't wet but the idea of a reward is not sufficient
to STOP him from wetting.  If the reward works in your case then that is great.
However, if he can't correct the situation by his own free will, then the
reward won't help.  Actually, children who have this problem are usually *SO*
happy when they're dry that being dry is almost enough reward in itself.

Another point, having worked with children and having a "wetting" son, make
sure that any care providers (including teachers, free activity adults, etc.)
are aware of the problem and can help the child without causing him further
embarassment.  When ever Mark goes on a school trip, I provide him with all
the necessary "equipment" so he can look after himself.  I then discuss it with
the teacher so that she can help him when he needs it.  Oddly enough, Mark is
actually _cleaner_ than his 13 year old brother who I have to practically
hogtie to get into the shower.

I think Mark might be starting to outgrow it.  We were 1 week on vacation and 
he didn't wet a single time.  He has wet every night since we've been back 
though.  I'm thankful for even small gains.  You never saw such a happy boy
who hadn't wet for a WHOLE WEEK!

Cheryl

After reading all the replies, I have been thinking about the
original basenote I entered and felt that I could have shared
a bit more about the entire situation.

Besides the 8 year old boy wetting during the day, there is also
a 10 year old daughter who wets every night.  She has absolutely
no idea she is wetting...her brain just doesn't get alarmed.

Both children have been seen by doctors in the past...no medical 
problems found; however, both were abused at the ages of 2 and 4 
(he sexually, she physically).

The doctor did prescribe a type of medication (can't remember what
it is called) for the daughter.  It was a liquid that she would squirt
up her nose (one squirt per nostril) each night before bedtime.  It was 
very, very expensive....$100/bottle.  This took a while to get into her 
system, but after about a week it was beginning to work.    One bottle
would last about a month...if that long!  She wasn't dry every night but 
when she was she was thrilled and so weren't we!  I think it's time for
another refill! 

When off the medication, she does have a dry night every so often....
When she does, we will usually question what she had to eat or drink the 
previous day.  In most cases, we find that she had NO SODA or ICE CREAM.  
She has been real good at trying not to drink or eat after 6:00.  

Many thanks to all of you who responded to my basenote.  After
reading each one of them, I was able to better understand why
using some sort of a reward system isn't such a bad idea after all.

I have shared the responses with my boyfriend and he too is thankful.

Regards,
Paula
    

    re: 1021.7 -- the word our daycare uses is "negotiating", not bribery! 
    sounds better.
    
    Good luck to all of you with wetters -- my 3 yr old had a problem with
    her bowel movements, and we tried the sticker chart -- worked
    marvelously.  It's still hanging in her room, she still talks about
    getting a sticker for "pooping on the potty" -- and we  haven't used it
    in months.  Now, to get her to eat her meals in under an hour...we're
    trying yet ANOTHER chart!  [does it ever end???!!!!!!!]
    
    
    /sandy

    What a shame that these kids were abused.  Have they had any therapy to
    deal with the psychological results?  It sounds like that may be
    contributing to the wetting.
    
    Laura

    
    Laura,
    
    Thanks for asking.  Yes, the entire family went through therapy.  
    They are amazingly bright (both straight A students), mature and 
    well behaved children for their ages - so far :)  The daughter, age 
    10, does remember instances when she was beaten (around 4 years old); 
    however, the boy, age 8, does not which is perhaps a blessing!  There 
    are many discussions that take place about this and the boy, although 
    still very young and doesn't quite understand it all, insists that he 
    is not angry or upset with his mother over what she did, i.e. abuse,
    desertion, abandonment, etc.
    
    IMO I think that the daughter's bedwetting is definitely linked with 
    the abuse; however, I don't feel that is the case with the boy.  He 
    can go weeks without wetting.....and then he can go everyday during 
    the week as well.
    
    Regards,
    

    My daughter, now age 8, had both day and night wetting problems until
    recently (she still has a night-time problem occasionally - especially
    when she has a cold).
    
    We saw a pediatric urologist, Dr. Stuart Bauer, who works out of
    Children's Hospital in Boston, but also has office hours in Framingham. 
    He diagnosed her as having a "spastic bladder" at age 5.  We tried a
    couple of different medications - I don't remember their names -but
    they did work.  They did, however, have some side effects - dryness in
    the mouth, drowsiness - do we tried not to stay on them for very long
    periods.
    
    Molly seems to have mostly outgrown the problem.  As I said, she still
    wets the bed once in a great while and especially if she has a cold.  
    
    You really need to get it checked out medically.  Incentives or bribes
    can work well if it is a behavioral problem.  Counseling can help if it
    is a psychological problem, such as the abuse you mentioned.  But
    neither of these will work if there is a physical problem.

    I've been down this road with my 13 year old daughter.  She would wet
    every night and sometimes 2 or 3 times in a night and sometimes she'd
    crawl in with us and wet.  It was awful.  By 7 we had her on little
    pills because nothing was wrong.  That worked for a while till we
    noticed she got sick to her stomach from taking them.  So by the age of
    8 1/2 I realized screaming (after trying to be patient many a night)
    did not help the situation.  I talked with a Gal who said she outgrew
    wetting at the age of 10 so I thought there must be hope.  I began to
    get real patient with her and told her I knew it wasn't her fault and
    she was trying hard.  That helped a little.  The thing that helped the
    most was when I'd say ok, I think something is bothering you tell mommy
    about it.  She'd open up, we'd talk and boom a dry night!  It took me
    till she was about 9 1/2 to relate that it must be emotional.  She
    tappered off once she also realized she wet when she was keeping
    something inside.  She hasn't wet since 10 1/2 Thank you God!
    
    Now, I'm going through it with my son but he'd been dry so much more at
    night 4 1/2 because of patience and stickers for dry nights and
    different stickers for dry days.  In fact he's counting the nights he's
    been dry.  Once it was 14 days in a row then he wet and we said nothing
    except that's okay and the next day he said it's been 16 days right
    mom? Of course john, he's back on track!  Who cares as long as he feels
    good it helps to keep him dry.
    
    Bottom line, just show patience reassure them you know they don't do it
    on purpose and are trying hard and that pretty soon they will stop
    wetting and not to worry about it.  I too beleive in helping them get
    clean because it shows it's not big deal and they don't need to tend
    after themselves as a punishment.