Conference moira::parenting_v3

Thanks!!!!

Overall, I think the majority of homecare/daycare is "good to excellent"
(even though we had problems with our "first" homecare provider).

I plan on watching the program.

Dottie

    I think I saw some of the Daycare horrors too last year before I went
    back to work in January.  Caused me much distress before I went back. 
    I thoroughly checked out the place my son is in and have checked
    references.  Also spent some time before I went back to work taking my
    son there to see how he might fit in.  It has turned out great and John
    loves it.
    
    However,  we still keep back ups in mind should anything change (like
    hours or personnel) since it is a home daycare you do not have the back
    up personnel like a center but I find it more personal than a center. 
    The woman in charge takes interest in all the kids and has been doing
    this for over 10 years.
    
    Digital has a Childcare referal service that can help find centers or
    home care near you.  You might want to check it out.  We found ours
    through an acquaintance but have used the referral service for checking
    out back ups.
    
    Good luck.
    
    Michelle

    
    Did anyone watch the segment last night???
    
    I watched it...but fell asleep on the couch after it, and missed the 
    "what to look for" section that was suppose to be one the news at 11.
    (I wish they had just put it in with the segment)
    
    It was pretty scary to think that there are places out there run like
    that. Made me really nervous about having to start lookin...  My
    husband sat there saying "Youre not going back, youre not going back"
    (to work)....  But financially we will have no choice.   But I do
    realise there are good places out there...just going to be a little
    tough finding the right one.
    
    First time mom-to-be...
    Can't ya tell?
    
    Chris
    
    

    The show was horrific. I kept asking myself where are the parents? If
    these places have an open door policy (I wouldn't think that any place
    that wouldn't allow unannounced visits would ever be considered by
    anyone) why are the parents not visiting more often?
    
    I'd be interested in replies from those folks who have visited their
    daycare facilities in this way.
    
    Granted the show made a point of the lack of state inspection agencies,
    lack of a goverment program and policies - but, where are the parents?
    
    This country will have a hopeless generation raised on this kind of
    daycare. The show gave an estimate of 50% of daycare is in bad shape.
    
    Dr Brazelton appeared on Boston's channel 5 news after the program. He
    mentioned again how far behind other developed countries the USA was on
    establishing a program and standards for daycare. We all need to
    pressure the government and business to change this - he mentioned what
    a sad representation of our current thinking it was that Massachusetts is
    considering closing the Office for Children (due to budget concerns).
    
    My wife and I have forgone many things in the past four years so that
    she could stay home with our son. It's situations like those shown on
    this program that make me feel that we have made the right decision.
    
    I was thinking about the program on the entire one hour commute this
    morning - I felt so bad for the young couple, the little boy who
    wandered around his daycare with no one paying any attention to him.
    I know a clean, well kept facility is no indication of the quality of
    care but I couldn't help but think that the condition of the facilities 
    shown on the show would make me think twice about placing a child in
    them.
    
    So sad - JR

    I cried a river of tears during the entire segment, had nightmares
    last night, and can't get the show out of my head right now.  Never
    in my life have I ever seen anything more disturbing on television.
    My reaction is a lot like .4's.  Where are the parents?  I know that
    the daycare owners do a lot of covering up when parents come, but
    people *must* make unannounced visits frequently.  Sure, it can be
    inconvenient to do this while you're working, but you have to know
    that your child is being cared for and not neglected or abused.
    
    My child has been in home daycare since she was 3 months old and I
    have no regrets.  I know her daycare provider loves her and most
    days my daughter doesn't want to leave to come home.  I'm relieved
    to know that she is well taken care of, but my heart is breaking for
    all of the children out there who aren't as privileged as she is.
    What can we do to change the horrors that are going on?  I noticed
    tears in Dr. Brazelton's eyes at one point when he was watching the
    tapes...  The other two doctors too, for that matter.
    
    But one of the most horrendous things is that the centers shown have
    not even been closed down.  Poor little Patrick is probably still
    wandering aimlessly in the "All American Daycare" and other children
    are tied up in their high-chairs at "Enchanted World".
    
    - Kathryn
    

    >why are the parents not visiting more often? 
    >Granted the show made a point of the lack of state inspection 
    >agencies, lack of a goverment program and policies - but, where 
    >are the parents?
    
    Probably working 10-hour days to make ends meet at a job where
    they'll get fired if they take time off to check up on a daycare
    center, or even to stay home with a sick kid.  
    
    Chances are they figure if the kid is clean and safe and not being
    actively abused, that's better than a lot of the choices.  And for
    a pretty significant part of the country, that's a better
    condition than the child would be in at home. 
    
    >that wouldn't allow unannounced visits would ever be considered by
    >anyone)
    
    Neil worked at a day care for a while.  One of his main jobs was
    calming down the kid after a parent's unannounced visit when the
    child couldn't understand how come Mommy or Daddy didn't take the
    child home.  Sometimes they'd cry all afternoon.  So depending on
    the school this can be either a coverup or a valid reason. 
    
    I didn't see the show, so I can't comment on the details.  Did
    they define "bad shape"?  Did they take into account how good the
    care was relative to the standards of the child's economic
    background?  A lot of the so-called horrors of daycare reflect the
    conditions people live under daily, not anything about the
    condition of daycare. 
    
    --bonnie

    RE: .6
    I don't buy it - somehow, if the parent is at all interested in the
    welfare of the child, daycare could be checked on - a parent, a friend,
    someone could check the conditions.
    
    I understand your point about 10 hour days and a working environment
    that is not as generous as Digital, but I guess the reason I chose the
    title to my reply is why go through all this to raise a child without
    any care for the outcome?
    
    I'm sorry you didn't see the show - I think your reply might be
    different if you had. The recurring situation seemed to be the lack of
    correct ratios in care providers to kids. One facility had one young,
    exhausted looking woman supervising 17 toddlers. They were totally out
    of control. Lack of supervision caused horrible situations - kids not
    being fed, left alone, plunked in high chairs with nothing to do.
    
    These kids are being harmed, and if the environment continues, will
    grow up to harm society - IMHO - being satisfied that they receive
    minimal care is not being a responsible parent.

    .6 Well, Adam's mom and dad seemed to be financially OK.  Their
    interests were in their sons well being and not so much on money.
    
    They did show a piece from another school down the road (I cannot
    remember the name) and the prices were the same.  But the conditions and
    overall structure surpassed the other two.  
    
    Where are the parents?  I too worked part-time a day care and seems
    some of the attitudes are when they leave, they almost forget about the
    kids and assume the center is doing the job they are paid to do.  Sad.
    Fortunately, the center I worked at had high standards and was stictly
    regulated by the director and professional people who ran the centers.
    
    As a result of my day care experience, I have made surprised visits. 
    Nothing bad to report.  Evan is always clean, and feed.  The ratios
    have always been equal.  
    
    I thought is was a good suggestion that the parents form a co-op and
    take turns with surprise visits.  If the states are not going to
    monitor, then someone has too.
    
    The children are the victims of these pitiful money-making businesses.
    
    Linda  
  

    re: .7
    
    I hope no one is ever as judgemental of your parenting behavior as
    you're being about the parents of these children.
    
    --bonnie

    I thought the first daycare center they showed looked like a terrible
    place to leave a child, even if I hadn't seen the tapes of what went
    on there.  The infants were left in their infant seats all day.  If
    I were a parent, I would have wondered where the walkers, or playpens,
    etc were.  There were two people watching 27 kids (infants included
    in this number, I believe).   A parent must realize their child won't
    get proper care and attention.  The place looked like a dump.  
    
    The good center was "Beverly's Place".  I'm glad they showed that,
    although only for a few minutes.  
    
    The third place (where Adam went), was probably more misleading. It
    looked decent.  The ratios looked good - because the director lied
    about the number of providers to children.
    
    I was so upset over poor Patrick (he was at the first place - the dump).  
    I wish they had gotten his last name so they could find out what the 
    parent(s) did about his situation. I was saddest when he fell asleep 
    on his blankie on the kitchen floor all by himself.  This poor kid 
    wandered around ALL DAY, alone, and no one ever noticed.   No one even 
    fed him!  Pacifier never came out of his mouth, blankie never left his 
    hand.  For those who didn't see the show, he wandered into the kitchen, 
    opened the bottom door on the gas stove, found a book of matches and 
    lit one!  The camera caught it perfectly.  No one ever knew.
    
    Also at the same facility:
    
    One kid was sick, threw up on himself, and was made to wait 40 or 45
    minutes until the one person who was feeding a baby could clean him
    up.  He was put in the kitchen by himself until he could be cleaned.
    
    The third facility they showed:
    
    There was one where the lady smacked the little girl (killed me, the 
    little girl looked around my little guy's age and all I could picture was 
    Eric being treated like that).  The poor little girl tried to climb back 
    up to this woman, but the woman just hit her again two more times.  In 
    this case, the mother of the girl had given the center permission to use 
    corporal punishment because they felt the daughter had a behavioral 
    problem.  But the mother said she never expected them to hit her in the 
    head.  It's a shame, but at the end of the story they said that little 
    girl was still in that same daycare center.  Also, the director of this 
    center, when she saw the tape, was denying that the other woman actually 
    hit the kid!!!  Did I imagine this?  I could have sworn she kept saying, 
    "She didn't hit her".
    
    It was disgusting.  I know there have got to be many many many good
    centers out there.  It's just a shame that two of the random three
    they chose were so pathetic.
    
    By the way, the first miserable place and the good place both charged
    the same amount, so it wasn't like people would put their kids in the
    dump because they couldn't afford better.  I guess they just didn't
    know how bad it was.
    
    Donna
    

    re:.9
    Oh, but people are! :'). I'm confused, I may have hit a hot button with
    you. You didn't see the show. In the context of the information provided
    I was making some observations and struggling with the idea that anyone
    would be comfortable with what was shown. It was a small cut above the
    horrifing pictures of the orphans in Rumania. You suggested that
    perhaps people are confident that if kids are kept clean, fed and not
    "actively" being abused that that was OK - I disagree and labled my
    statement as my opinion.
    
    I know people of my generation, DECCIES, who also just don't seem to
    invest the energy required to find good quality daycare. Dump them
    here, dump them there - why have the kids? 
    
    JR

    
    
    
    I think the sickest part is that according to the show that these
    places are *STILL IN OPERATION*... How can that be??  All that they
    got was a written warning, BFD...  Penalize them hard cold cash and
    see what happens...  If they start charging more to their customers
    the customers will go elsewhere...  Also maybe if this warning letter
    got distributed to all the 'customers', it would more than likely
    force the center to clean up their act...
    
    As with a previous reply, we have forgone a lot and my wife stays home
    (and also takes care of another little one)..  Just watching that program
    we couldn't believe the treatment...  As a parent I'd figure you'd have
    to know something was wrong if your child acted differently after 
    going to a daycare (as opposed to before, or when someone was at home).
    
    
    If I heard correctly I think they said that two of the places (the real
    bad one, and the good one) each cost $50/week (maybe they said $150,
    but I thought I heard $50)...  
    
    
    John
    
    

    It was $50.00 a week.  Before I chose the school for my children, I
    looked around.  I saw three or four school.  Considerably less than
    what I am currently paying and the other school even included hot
    lunches!  
    
    I was so upset after visiting one school that I abruptly stopped the
    tour mid-way through and left in total disgust.  I was more upset that
    parents would leave their children in such an evironment.  
    - Children were sleeping on the floor, no mats, no blankets, no
    nothing.
    - The so called classrooms were divided with BED SHEETS! and were
    located in the basement of the building
    - There appeared to be a sea of kids.  I've never seen so many children
    in one place (except for Chuck-e-Cheese)
    - The free play toys consisted of a handful of homemade blocks and 
    some raggedy stuffed toys.  
    
    The list goes on, but this is a reputable center in Nashua.
    
    Another center was located on a very busy street with no fence around
    the play area.  The directors response when asked; "We have never had
    any problems or accidents".  Well, that's a chance I'm not taking.
    
    The bottom line, Not everyone has the same standards.  And I firmly
    believe that you get what you pay for.
    
    Linda
      
    

    
    
    I also didn't see the show and have no children so my comments are just
    and observation I have made and are not meant to cast judgement on
    anyone.
    
    	My neice and nephew went to what I considered to be an average
    daycare center.  Children were divided by age group with 2 teachers
    to a room of about 15 children.  Somewhat structured like a school
    a school with field trips and projects.  A very positive experience
    for both of them.  This was in Massachusetts and most of my friends
    who sent their children to a center were in centers of the same type.
    
    	A friend of mine lives in South Carolina.  I went to visit her
    last summer and went with her to pick up her son from his daycare
    center.  The center was one room with all ages of children together.  
    There had to be at least 25 kids in the room when we got there with one
    woman watching them all.  She paid 55.00 a week for full-time care.
    I personally (maybe new england puritanical thinking) thought the 
    place was inadequate.  My only experience with daycare had been the
    one previously mentioned.  My friend was very pleased with her center.
    It was new and she felt her son was being cared for and she could 
    afford it.
    
    	I thought 55.00 dollars a week was cheap.  Cheap for Massachusetts.
    In the area of S. Carolina where my friend lives its average cost. 
    People can't afford to pay $100.00 and more for daycare.  They don't 
    have the incomes.
    
    	Bottom line I guess I'd like to say that when examining other
    peoples situations we sometimes don't look at all the factors involved
    in their decision process.  50.00 here might be the cheap deal and
    some other part of the country be the average price found.  Daycare
    needs to be regulated by the government and parents need to be
    involved.  Just like our institutions of education.  Find Care for
    your children you can trust in and do that by examining what out
    there.  One persons treasure is anothers Junk.  

    I saw most of the show before my husband came home and asked me to turn
    it off because it was too depressing.  We have a 9 month old so I
    empathized with the plight of the babies, especially the two who were
    stuck in a car seat all day without anyone to cuddle them...
    
    At the risk of waxing philosophical, I have to wonder 'How do we fix
    this?'  Many of us at DEC are professionals and have the selection of
    day care.  Others are less fortunate and the 'system' isn't there to
    ensure at lease the basics in child care.  It irks me that the center
    we saw is still in business. Does the inspection agency lack the clout
    to go in and shut it down?  They shut down restaurants quicker than
    that and they don't have responsibility for raising our children.
    
    At some level it's easy to dismiss it and say 'Thank goodness that's not
    our situation', but it's more pervasive than that.  This is a generation
    of children that will grow up and be in school with our children,
    compete for jobs with them, and increase the need for social services
    even further.  Dr. Brazelton said that a 9 month old baby would reflect
    the damage caused by such neglect.  We need to find a way to intervene
    before these children get too old.
    
    Maybe I'm really too idealistic, and maybe it's just perceived as
    another women's and children's issue and therefore lacks the political
    clout to get fixed.  but we need to care and we need to find a way to
    change this situation..
    
    -- Mary
                   

    I agree with.15, I am horrified, these places exist and are still open
    after receiving the hand slap by the inspectors!!!  This show cut to
    the very heart of me, and I'm sure every mother who watched it.
    
    I know that in California, to be licensed for day care in your home you
    can only have up to 6 kids to one adult.  I'm not sure what it is for
    day care "centers".  Why can't all states come up with ratio laws! 
    Seventeen kids to one adult is OUTRAGEOUS!!!  Now, coming up with the
    laws won't just solve the problem, they need to be inforced.  Think of
    all the places that would not be licensed, and therefore just take as
    many kids as possible to make money.  This happens in home day care
    too.  
    
    It really is the parents responsibility to check things out.  I
    sympathize with those who have little money, but child to adult ratio
    is almost near the top of my list, when it comes to wants.  The couple
    who did check the day care out first, really had the wool pulled over
    their eyes by the center.  They had additional workers brought in for
    their initial visit and every evening when the parents picked up kids 
    so it would look like there were more workers.  My suggestion would be
    not only to drop in unannounced, but get to know other parents and have
    them do the same.  This gives you two or three sets of eye balls
    instead of one!
    
    <FLAME ON>
                    
    Lastly, IMHO it is inappropriate to comment about what we say about
    this show if you haven't seen it!!!!!!!!!
    
    <FLAME OFF>

    re: .9
    
    This is the statement I objected to:
    
    >if the parent is at all interested in the welfare of the child,
    >daycare could be checked on 
    
    You don't know the parent or parents, you don't know their
    situation, their attitudes, their justifications.  Perhaps they're
    criminally negligent and should be locked up, but perhaps they
    have a side to their story too.  
    
    You don't have the right to say that a parent whose child is in
    one of those centers isn't interested in their child's welfare
    unless you know the entire story.
    
    Judging the daycare centers is one thing and I have no comment on
    that, since as I said I didn't see the show.  But judging the
    parents this harshly without any evidence is another matter. 
    
    --bonnie

    I agree with Bonnie.
    I was very lucky to find an excellent daycare when I needed one.  I did
    investigate it before sending my daughter and was lucky because I knew
    one of the teachers personally.  I wasn't able to leave work during the
    day to check on things.  Being too far away was one problem but my
    biggest problem was my manager at the time.  My daughter was born with
    a genetic disease (Cystic Fibrosis) that was slowly taking her life.
    The daycare center called frequently to say Tina was sick and I had to
    pick her up.  My manager at the time wanted to fire me because I was
    taking "too much" time off.  He really didn't care that my daughter was
    dying..just that I was taking too much time off.  I can't even think of
    this guy without getting furious!  Anyway, I finally couldn't take any 
    more so I found another job with a HUMAN manager and was able to take the 
    time off I needed to be with my child.  Staying home wasn't an option 
    since I was the sole support for me and my two children.  If this guy
    wanted to fire me over taking time off for a dying child, could you
    imagine his reaction if I said I was leaving for a while to check up on
    the daycare?  Was I a bad mother because I had to trust that they were
    taking care of her properly?   
    I do have to admit though, I couldn't believe that mother who's baby
    had been hit several times on the face and head left her baby there
    after seeing this.  That bothered me.
    
    Marie

 Not everyone has the good fortune of being able to forego some family needs 
 and have a parent take care of their children.  This would, of course, 
 eliminate the daily need for outside child-care.

 Not everyone has the good fortune of having child-care located close to work 
 so a parent has an opportunity to make unannounced visits.  This would, of 
 course, keep the child-care provider on his/her toes.

 Not everyone has the good fortune of working in an environment that allows 
 a worker the ability to take extended lunches/breaks (something along the 
 lines of 2-hours) in order to travel to a child-care provider and make a 
 suprise visit.

 I strongly resent the insinuation that those of us who fit into the above 
 category (ie. no parent at home, child-care not close to work, or not taking
 extended breaks) are somehow disinterested in our children and the care they
 receive.  I, myself, have never made a surprise visit with my child-care 
 provider.  Sure, I have wanted to from time to time but I haven't the 
 opportunity to do so.  Fortunately (and perhaps I am being naive) I trust my 
 provider enough to know my son is getting the attention he deserves (and that 
 the provider is being paid for).

 I am somewhat taken aback (though not altogether surprised) by the attitudes 
 of some of the participants of this topic.  It seems that those of us who do 
 not make these surprise visits are being held to blame for the actions of 
 these unscrupulous, unworthy child-care providers.  It is insinuated that if 
 -we- drop in on these people, there would be no problem.  I only wish this
 were true.  What about the young couple who left their child for the first
 time?  Are they to blame?  I think not.  Bottom line:  No one can watch these
 people -all- the time.

 Personally, knowing the people who lay blame on the parents have no idea 
 what reasons we (they) may have for not doing what -they- think right (or, 
 for that matter, know not whether someone may have dropped in sometime 
 earlier) makes me very angry.

 Who is to blame for abuse that takes place with a child-care provider?  
 The child-care provider.
  
 My heart-felt opinion...

-Andy

The following agency was mentioned in the Prime Time Live program:

		National Childcare Referral Agency
			(507)287-2220

It was implied that they can assist in locating good childcare.  Whether
that is by identifying bad childcare providers, I do not recall.

-Andy

What a lousy forum for a serious discussion.

In the *context of the facts presented in the program*, I'm wondering why no 
warning bells went off in the parents of the children portrayed.

In contrast to the structured daycare that was shown, the toddlers from the
"unstructured" daycare situations are not going home with little projects,
songs they have learned or, I would imagine, anything good to say about
their day. Do they say - I jumped all around, fought, got strapped in a
highchair all afternoon, missed lunch, and kicked little Billy in the head?
No, I don't think so, but the absence of any positive report would, in my
mind, be alarming. Do the parents of the toddlers (portrayed in the
program) ask any questions? Listen to the answers (given by the kids in the
program)? And (in the context of the children shown in the program) do they
care about the welfare of their kids? 

I would think that the parents who have kids in good daycare situations are
constantly being reinforced from their kids reports that everything is OK.
Not to imply that an onsite visit is necessary in all cases. I made the
point about visits in the context of the information provided in the
program. 

The main points that I got out of the show, and tried to present in my 
first commentary, were the following (now lost in lousy ratholes full of 
misconceptions and defensive posturing):

1. Lack of a national daycare policy and program (I have sent a 
   letter to all my state's representatives in Washington)

2. Lack of enforcement of existing policies (especially care
   providers to kids ratios) 

3. Potential of these kids to grow up to be caring, well-adjusted members 
   of society.


Some noters have picked up on these points and I hope it stirs them into
some action as well. I'm sorry if I offended any noters by causing them to
see any "insinuations" in my words beyond what was presented in the
program. 

I hope all get the point that I'm dealing with the kids and situations 
portrayed in the program and don't pretend to know all the facts about 
their lives - just asking some questions.

Like most of us here, I too was very emotional during and after the show.
I just could not believe that there are such horrible places in this world.
Little children *depend* on adults to take care of them, so whenever I see
anything happen to little children it affects me personally much more than
when I see something happen to an adult.  For the amount of money they make,
I think that most daycare providers take the job because they love children,
and not for the money.  I guess this isn't always the case....

Do you really think that they (PrimeTime Live) showed a fair accessment?
I felt that they seeked out the poor quality daycare and focused their
entire show on it (yeah, they showed a small clip from a decent center).  If
I were a new parent, or one CONSIDERING a daycare center, that show would
have been enough to change my mind.  Perhaps I'm naive, but I really think
that there are more quality centers - MANY MORE, percentage wise - than
they depicted in the show.

I'm not one to stop in unannounced when I don't need to (in fact, most times
that I need to be there at an unusual hour I call ahead so they can get the
girls ready).  But it seems there are other indications of whether your
child is in quality daycare.  Some things that I experience are:

- Artwork - Kati brings home tons of it every single day
- Songs - she knows so many songs.  Now she sings songs I don't know, and
	she has to have learned them at school
- Notes - I get notes every day telling me the times for food/drink (and
	how much), naps, diaper or toilet, etc.  The notes always have
	personal information such as new milestones, fun activities, moods
	of the kids, etc...
- Kids Excitement - Kati is thrilled to go to daycare, and is beside herself
	if one of her teachers comes to babysit on weekends/evenings

There are other signs, but I would think that any of the daycare centers that
were "exposed" could not have sent children home with the above.

Pity those centers are opened.  The doors should be shut, and employees
banned from working in childcare ever again.

Kristen

    Well, I say thank God Lisa (my wife is at home w/our kids).  I know not
    everyone can afford it, and it is a shame.  I read that, for the (per
    child) deductions in the US to be equivalent to what it was in the
    late fifties, it would have to be (around) $4000/dependant.  If this
    were the case today more people could afford to have one of the parents
    stay home with the child (where applicable).  
    
    I cannot believe the people who want to see the government get more
    involved in this situation.  Half the problem is that (as was shown on
    the program) government is ineffective in most of the things it gets
    its hands on.  We need to make time to check on the daycare provider. 
    In my opinion, anyone who says they cannot check on their provider,
    does not want to.  Use your lunch hour.  Come in 1/2 hr early, there
    are many creative ways.  If the company (or boss) you are working for 
    does not believe in this type of thing, then find another job.  Sorry
    to sound so harsh, but I just cannot buy into the fact that one cannot
    change their circumstances to accomodate their childrens well-being.
    
    
    FYI-They are going to show reactions of some of the parents from the
    daycares shown This week on the same program.
    
    Mike

    
    I wanted to stay away from this topic but just have to add my 2cents..
    
    I am willing to lay odds that it would be quite simple to create
    an equally horrific Prime Time Live show dedicated to horrors that
    can be found in homes across America where the mothers and/or 
    fathers ARE home with their children!   This is not a problem unique
    to daycare situations.  
    
    I'm not denying that something needs to be done with respect to the 
    daycare situations.   As far as I'm concerned, the one place should
    be shutdown immediately!   However, I think emphasis needs to be placed
    on making sure that all children grow up in a caring, loving
    environment - daycare or no daycare.  
    
    Why is is that stay-at-home parents always seem SO quick to jump
    all over parents who choose or have to work and need daycare as
    a result, but rarely do you see the opposite?    
    
    Carol   

I could, in the spirit on some of the replies in this string, write an
indignant note as to how you don't have the right to condemn stay at home
parents because you don't know all the facts, and that I'm tired that
people insinuate that because one parent stays at home that the environment
is not healthy. And ask why daycare parents always jump on parents with
stay at home kids. I could defensively describe my wife's considerable
efforts in structuring my sons day at home. 

But I won't, because I know you didn't mean me personally and it wouldn't
lend anything to the topic under discussion. 
:') 

I'm positive some stay at home situations are no doubt equally horrifying.
What can we do, as a society, to insure that kids, wherever they spend
their day, are in a nurturing, healthy environment? 

One reply that expressed reluctance to further involve the government,
certainly is worth discussing. I sit on the fence - sometimes I rage
against the ineptness of the government in enforcing laws that are already
on the books - with agencies we already fund, and other times I feel it is a
proper role for the government to play. 

Where can businesses be more involved? I'm well aware of Digital's 
reluctance to involve themselves in this role, but the kids we are raising 
are the employees of the future. Why is corporate America so hell bent on 
short-term thinking (rhetorical)?

    RE: .25 I agree with your note, especially the last paragraph.  I think
    the private sector could regulate daycare a heck of a lot better than
    the govt could.  
    
    
    Mike

    RE: .14  I had my 14 year old in daycares for 14 years in
    Massachusetts. I never have experienced a bad one.
    
    I now live in South Carolina and have my 4 month old in a very nice
    daycare. 
    
    There are good and bad daycares no matter where you live. I don't think
    the state you live in has any relevence here at all.
    
    We looked at 4 or 5 daycares before we found one that felt right for
    us. We found it while I was still pregnant. I would stop in during the
    pregnancy and while I was home on matrenity leave. We feel very good
    about our decision.
    
    I think the next part of this show where they interview the parents
    will be just as sad. Some will be horrified to discover they made a
    wrong decision and others will think the treatment their kids are
    receiving is o.k.
    
    Sheree
    

    
    
    PTL is airing the parent's reaction to that show - not sure what
    night the show is on...
    
    
    bonnie

    It's on tonight at 10:00.
    

    I'm going to try to remember to tape this!! I taped last weeks horror
    show. I couldn't believe what saw!! With a 8 month old son, I was very
    angry to say the least!

    It should be interesting to see what the parents have to say. I hope
    they show the mother of the child that was hit in the face three times!
    According to the show, the mother GAVE the daycare center permission to 
    "disciplinary action" as she feels the child has a "behavioral problem".
    If she does, I know where she got it!! NO child deserves that kind of
    treatment!!!

    Norma

    Not that I'm a cynic or anything, you understand, but . . . I got
    to thinking the other day, after catching a few minutes of this
    show on video at my neighbor's house. 
    
    Suppose a camera crew showed up at my house one morning and
    followed us around for eight hours, filming everything.   And then
    suppose they had to extract, say, 20 minutes of that to present
    our life.  
    
    And what if they decided to show David coming in filthy and crying
    and getting plopped down in his room still howling, and left there
    for ten minutes with no response, and didn't show me running out
    to pick up Steven where he had just crashed his bike into the
    lilac bush, carrying him upstairs to the bathroom and trying to
    decide whether to call an ambulance or just clean up the blood? 
    
    Suppose they showed David sitting in his high chair staring at the
    wall, and didn't show him begging to be lifted into the chair, and
    didn't show me cooking on the other side of the room? 
    
    What if they decided to show a picture of the room that used to be
    Steven's bedroom, with the uncovered box spring and a couple of
    dirty blankets where Steven and his friend were playing hospital? 
    Steven doesn't sleep there any more, he shares the bunk bed with
    David, and we're converting the other room to a playroom, but you
    can't tell that by looking.  
    
    You'd certainly get a different opinion of us, wouldn't you?
    
    And this network certainly got a lot more audience by doing a
    horror show than they would have from a fair, balanced, objective
    presentation. 
    
    --bonnie

    
    Alot of good points made Bonnie...
    
    Chris
    
    

    re .31
    
    You've offered some examples of how situations/events CAN be shown out of 
    context, in a misleading fashion.
    
    However, do you have reason/evidence for suggesting that this 
    misrepresentation occurred on the 20/20 program?
                                            
    Gene

    re: .33
    
    Was it 20-20?  I thought it was Prime Time Live.
    
    Anywya, I just got to wondering, that's all.  The things they
    showed seemed SO inflammatory and SO obviously wrong that my first
    reaction was, "How could anybody miss this?"  And then, because
    it's been my experience that generally most people are doing the
    best they can most of the time, it got me thinking about what the
    rest of the picture might be.  
    
    Yeah, there are bad people and exploitive people in life, but
    things are so seldom clear in life that when somebody presents
    such obvious situations it makes me think maybe they missed
    something.  As a writer and former journalist, I know how hard it
    is to accurately explain anything in a brief space, so the picture
    could get skewed by accident as well as by malice or by a quest
    for ratings.  And  these magazine-format news programs have been
    accused of these things in the past.  
    
    --bonnie

    re: 31
    
    I think you pointed out some valid and interesting points also, 
    however... Prime Time stated that babies were left in their car
    seats for hours at a time. Toddlers were left crying in highchairs
    for long periods. Also what about the adult to children ratio, the 
    daycare worker slapping the infant three times in the face and throwing
    the infant in the crib, the little boy wandering around alone all day
    and not being fed, and the child who had to sit in his own vomit for 40
    minutes? IMO these events should never happen in a "typical" day at home or
    at a daycare center.                                           
    

    .34 
    Bonnie,
    Did you watch last night? They addressed many of your points. How much
    did you watch of the tape of the first show?
    JR

I can see both sides here ...

I "finally" saw the tape last night and, too, was horrified by much of what
I saw.  I then saw the "rebuttal" segment and the one daycare owner still
adamantly contests the charges.  She claims that the "crew" cut all the
"good" stuff out and only showed the "bad" stuff and manipulated it to
make it seem that much worse (e.g. provider changed a ka-zillion diapers,
never washed her hands once, and then applied teething gel to a babies
gums - with dirty hands).  The daycare owner swears it was "edited tape"
and DIDN'T show the hand washing .... well, PrimeTime was more than happy
to show the ENTIRE "unedited" segment (fast forwarded) and PT was right,
the lady never did wash her hands!!!

I also agree with Bonnie.  Even the best parent gets caught up in worst
case scenarios!  I'd hate to see the footage of Jim/I standing in our
driveway chatting, while our 13 month old daughter wobbles over to the
lawnmower and lays her hand onto the STEAMY HOT MUFFLER  (terrible,
terrible, scaring burn on her palm) ... it all happened so quick, WE
were both watching her ... and I STILL FEEL tremendous guilt over this!

Not to mention the time she loosened her two front teeth (5' from me!)
... and just TODAY, Jim was talking with Juli's daycare provider,
10' from the swingset and they witnessed Juli running for a swing
AND DIVING THROUGH IT!  She slid through the sand, scunned her hands
and chin and cut her lip!  ... .Now, if Jim didn't witness it, what
might WE think - having just watched the Daycare Horrors Tape? ...

I'd sure be having my doubts!!!

I'm sure glad that PrimeTime made us aware of what could be affecting
each and every child in homecare and daycare today ... HOWEVER, I don't
want it to consume me such that I'm now going to question every bruise,
every tear, every behaviorial change (which occurs daily with a toddler!)
which Juli comes home (from daycare!) with.

Dottie

    
    While .31 makes some valid points about how the "media" can 
    certainly (and DO) show the things that will solicit the most
    response, there is is NO exuse for these things in a daycare center. 
    We live in households that (because of the way we live) cannot be 
    child proofed. A daycare center is in the business of taking care of 
    children. It is what they are payed to do. To that end, they should
    be held to a higher standard of child-proofing. I would 
    not expect a daycare center to have a lawn mower where the children
    could get to it, nor would I expect them to have a mattress with
    springs and dirty blankets. While a home may necessarily have these
    things, a  daycare center should not..... comparisons of home-care vs.
    daycare are not valid due to the functions of each place. Now, if your
    childcare provider works out of a home... sure, make the comparison. 
    Things like matches that the little boy found in the stove  are 
    inexcuseable in a daycare center. Hitting a one year old is
    inexcuseable. Not washing hands between diaper changes is inexcuseable.
    That these things EVER happen at the daycare center is inexcuseable.
    That they happened on one random day leads one to believe
    that they may happen regularly.  
    A lot of the random jumping around and fighting among
    the kids might be explainable (ever watch kids at a playground?), 
    and mixed in with the match scene and the punishment scene and other 
    scenes lends a feeling of total disarray. So, while some of the 
    clips shown were not out of the ordinary for a household  with kids, 
    others were situations that should never happen, and should not be 
    overlooked as media-hype. 
    
    Doug
      

    re: .37
    
    Dot, that expresses quite well my reaction to the whole thing.  
    
    re: .38
    
    I disagree with your assumption.  I do not expect any higher
    standards from a caregiver, even a daycare center, than I enforce
    in my own home.   
    
    Many millions of people in this country disagree about using
    physical force to discipline a child of any age.  If the parent
    knew that such force was being used, and approved it, I may not
    like it and I may move my child out that daycare, but I also think
    it's none of my business.
    
    --bonnie

    Hi everyone,
    	I wanted to comment here so I entered my introduction in entry 14.
    All of the points are well taken in this note.  I saw the two shows and
    was pretty sick after thinking about the kids and maybe many more in
    that might be in the same conditions.  I am a person who thinks kindly
    of others and try not to think bad of people.  
    
    	I was surprised that nobody has mentioned last night show including
    a piece of Our House of Representives in Wash. DC. who have a daycare
    facility for their children that WE the taxpayer are contributing
    money too.  I don't mean that's wrong but I am upset to think that
    money to them is more than OUR kids.
    
    		MJ
    

re: 40

Oh, but did JIM have a lot to say about that!  Those beautiful surroundings,
all instructors had a minimum of a MS (or whatever!) in child development,
all the furniture WAS NEW and CLEAN ... the teachers were in total control!
... the ratio was 1:3 (teacher -> children) ...

and tell me this WAS NOT STAGED for the camera crew!  Believe that and I have
a bridge to sell you in downtown NYC!

It is grossly unfair that we "subsidize" this gorgeous daycare center for
our House of Representatives ... at a very fair price ($165/week!) ... when
they can't do diddily-squat to address the "common family's" daycare needs.

I also found it repulsive when:

.  the All-American Daycare Center's owner ADMANTLY denied everything,
   even when the entire, unedited tape was shown to her.

.  the All-American Daycare Center's owner even went "public" to try and
   convince the world that the tape was "misleading" and the accusations were
   all wrong, warped and unfair.

.  One parent (of the FOUR remaining kids at the center) told the PrimeTime
   camera that she KNOWS ALL ABOUT THE TAPE and still chooses to willingly
   deliver her child to these adult-monsters!

.  the state investigator (who was put on a hot plate!) tried so hard to
   "cool down" the hot potato that was dropped in his hands (not that he
   didn't OWN IT!) ... One side of me felt sorry for the situation he was
   in, but the other side of me said "You SHOULD pay equally for the
   suffering of these little children!"

Well, rest assured, All-American won't be operating much longer ... but that
still doesn't solve the problem.  "We", as parents, still own the responsibilty.

Dottie