Conference moira::parenting_v3

    
    First off, is the woman a registered child care provider or is she a
    friend or neighbor? Because I have the feeling that she can't handle
    all these children herself, if she isn't used to it. 
    
    Second, I do feel that she should have spoken to Brian before she
    yelled at your son a second time. I realize that not always you can
    speak calmly to a child to get them to listen. But the first time
    a child is told to do something it should be spoken in a calm tone.
    Not yelling at him right off. It sounds to me like the children get
    along fine, it might be the sitter that's the problem, No?
    
    Just my opinion.
    
    Sandy
    

    I think her actions are possibly not the wisest, or the calmest,
    but not having seen any of the situations described, I don't see
    anything abusive.  
    
    But it's clearly a serious mismatch between your values and
    expectations and hers, and you should make new care arrangements
    as soon as possible.  You might want to consider a more organized
    environment rather than family care; your son's showing the kinds
    of misbehavior that Steven (7) engages in when he's bored.  It was
    especially bad last summer just before he started school.  
    
    --bonnie

Ditto, Bonnie.

We were in a similar situation.  While things were going fairly smoothly,
the sitter could manage her three kids, my kid (and the many others she
accepted on a day-to-day basis).  BUT, there were those occasions when it
became blatantly obvious to Jim/I that she was "over-extended" ... and
you couldn't predict NOR avoid those many unexpected and unplanned
events which could (and usually did!) "upset the apple cart" (so to say!).

I did NOT want my child in an environment which was on "rocky ground".
I did not want my child subjected to irrational behavior (it's OK to spill
juice on the sofa, but it's not OK to contest having your shoes tied ...
it's OK to miss more naps than are taken ... it's OK to "fight" over toys
... it's OK to play in the snow barefoot ... it's OK for "me" (the sitter)
to scream at you and even "swat" (not spank, but swat) you when my nerves
are ruffled ...).  Not to mention how she solved her "over-extended"
situation when an accident resulted in an emergency Pedi appointment
(eg. you never knew WHO was now watching your kid, where your kid was,
when your kid would be back ... and worst yet, if your kid was being
watched by a 5-year old!!!!!).

Well, six months of chaos and confusion in an UNsettled environment was
enough for Jim/I to "can" homecare! (I know there's MANY good homecare's
available, we were NOT one of the lucky ones to find one!) ... we then
moved Juli into a learning center/daycare environment.

At the LC, rules are the same day-after-day-after-day.  There's a lot
MORE consistency, a lot MORE control, a lot MORE structure, a LOT, LOT
MORE activity (to keep them happy, BUSY and usually out of trouble) and 
discipline is handled in a very positive way (no yelling, but you sit on
a chair outside of the "fun" environment).

We saw a complete 180 in Juli's attitude and behavior within two weeks
of the transition to the learning center/daycare.  Oh, she's far from
a perfect child (even in my wildest dreams!!!!), but she sure has come
a long way these past several months ... not to mention the improvement
in HER happiness.  She just loves it there and we don't have to worry
about the kind of day she is having (we know she is very happy there),
she's doing great there (no behavorial upsets) and more importantly,
I just can't envision them yelling at her or striking her NO MATTER HOW
BAD IT GETS!  In fact, we have always said "if MY kid frays YOUR nerves,
call us -- we WILL pick her up ...".

So we, too, had similar problems with homecare ... and we are extremely
pleased with Juli's learning center/daycare (Hudson Children's Center,
Hudson, MA).

Dottie

    Dottie, 
    
    Your story illustrates why personality match is as important as
    anything else when it comes to choosing family daycare.  Except
    for "it's ok to swat," which it's not, and a bit more organization
    around who takes care of the kids when Julie has to rush her own
    kid to the emergency room (the youngest fillin is 16 and it's
    always at Julie's), your note could pretty well describe our
    daycare situation. 
    
    I don't see "ok to spill juice, not okay to fight shoes" as an
    irrational difference.  Not fighting about shoes is something a
    very small child can understand, and usually rebellion is
    deliberate.  Spilling juice requires a lot more coordination and
    is seldom done with malicious intent.  Quarreling over toys, if it
    doesn't extend to hitting or to the bigger kid taking advantage of
    the little kid, is just something they have to learn to settle
    among themselves.  (And you'd be surprised how often the
    20-month-olds find a way to tell the 5-year-olds to take a hike.)
    
    I can't imagine Julie ever getting ruffled enough to swat anyone. 
    She manages 3 of her own and 2-3 others just fine.  But it is
    noisy, and hectic, and all the rest.  
    
    But then David is a mellow child and he's doing very well there. 
    He likes Julie's daughters and he's growing up very polite. 
    Obviously the similar environment didn't suit you and your
    daughter at all.  
    
    --bonnie

    re: .3
    
    Dottie,
    
    Robin should give you a discount for giving such wonderful
    comments about her center.  At least, she should offer
    you extra hotdogs at this Friday's cookout :-))
                                                   
    Wendy

Bonnie:

Again, the biggest problems Jim/I had with our homecare provider was:

	.  yes, she did swat my child (more than once)
	.  she did leave the kids UNattended (at home and in cars)
	.  she did leave a 5 year old "babysitting" a 13 month old
	.  she didn't know what the kids were doing half the time
		(she always depended on a 9-year old and a 5-year old
		to watch the two 1-1/2 year olds and TELL HER if
		something wasn't going right)
	.  the big kids could (and did) hit/push around the little kids
	.  meals, naps, diaper changes didn't always occur
	.  yes, there was CONTINUAL disorganization, chaos, confusion
		and noise
	.  there was NO structured activity (other than TV!) ...
		crayons were available if the child had an interest
	.  the sitter would not hesitate to contact ANYONE to fill-in
		for her
	.  I would show up "promptly" at 2:30 pm daily ... many, many
		times no sitter, no kids (and she was warned I had a
		3:00 pm Pedi appointment!)

Not sure if you can say this is similar to your homecare environment,
Bonnie ... but it's NOT the environment Jim/I would place Juli in.

Wendy:

Are you going to tomorrow's cookout?  Jim/I are planning on attending.

Dottie

    I have a real problem with her telling you that you have to take your
    child whenever you have a day off.  *I* decide if I need a day to get
    things done, work from home, and so on.  If I want Gina there, she's
    there.  If not, the sitter is doing the job she gets paid for.
    
    The situation as you describe it is more than I would put up with.
    
    judy

    Dottie -- 

    I said there was no hitting or leaving kids unattended.  I'll say
    it again.  THAT would indeed be off limits for me -- though it
    isn't for everybody.  

    But otherwise, yes.  

    No structured activity, yes.   Pool play, toys to run around with,
    coloring books, playing house, playing with beach toys in the
    sandbox, following ants around the yard.  I don't believe in
    structured activity for most 20-month-olds.  My opinion only.  

    Having the older kids help out with the younger kids, yes. A
    5-year-old isn't old enough to be responsible for a 1.5-old with
    no adults around, but a 5-year-old is more than capable of
    notifying an adult if the younger kid is doing something off
    limits.  And generally delights in getting the younger kid in
    trouble. 

    Meals happen when people are hungry.  Naps happen when and if
    people are sleepy.  Diaper changes happen when somebody's dirty. 

    What you'd consider criminally chaotic and confusing, yes.  Noise,
    yes.  In copious quantities.  Usually screaming with laughter,
    occasionally tears, mostly half a dozen people talking at once. 
    
    Warm.  Friendly.  Welcoming.  Kind.  Sympathetic, compassionate. 
    Listening.  The kind of place where everybody feels welcome.  So
    everybody does show up.  Husband gets off work at 3, sister and
    boyfriend, neighbors, mother, other friends.  After a year I know
    most of the people who are likely to be there when I pick up
    David, but every now and then a new one turns up.  The kind of
    place it's good to be in.  Sometimes I have trouble leaving in the
    morning, not because David's clingly but because I want to stay
    and talk. 
    
    To me, those are more important than academics or educational
    qualifications or scheduled activities. The place your daughter
    goes to sounds like it's perfect for you and her, but from my
    perspective it sounds too rigid, regimented, and pressured for my
    20-month-old.  It might be the finest school in New England, but
    it would be bad for me and David. 
    
    --bonnie

    To .0:
    
    I agree wholeheartedly with .8.  When you pay for daycare for your
    child, whether or not you go to work after you drop your child off
    shouldn't have any impact on the arrangement.  There have been days
    when I've brought my daughter to her sitter when I wasn't going to
    work after - she didn't have a problem with it.  Yours shouldn't
    either.  I'd find a new one, even though I know that's a difficult
    task.  But I just couldn't deal with the type of person you've
    described.
    
    Good luck,
    Kathryn
    

    RE: .0
    
    In my opinion, the provider should be reported to the OFC.  Family
    daycare providers are licensed to provide care at their home only. 
    Sending the kids to a neighbor is not condoned.  I personally would
    call the OFC and request an un-announced visit.  Since my wife provides
    care, I am somewhat familiar with the rules.  As an example:  Daycare
    providers are forbidden from congregating at one providers home for any
    function.  This is because licensing is determined by the size of the
    home and the number of adults normally working there.  Other than
    "public" places, no group functions can be held.  This is to insure
    that the proper amount of play space is available.  While this appears
    to be a bit extreme, it does minimize the possibility of a group of
    providers from covering for another who may want the day off.
    
    Abusive reactions to a child mis-behaving, in my book, is not acceptable.
    Singling out an individual is also not acceptable.  If the provider has
    a problem with one child, the problem should be worked with the parent,
    not the child.  We too have had this problem with one child.  It turns
    out that the family had lost a dog shortly before the behavior
    problems.  A few days of extra attention and pro-active discipline, and
    the problem was solved.
    
    Would this behavior be called child abuse?  Unlikely, although I don't
    feel it is the right type of behavior.  This provider does not have the
    right attitude to be working with children (IMHO).
    
    Dan

    I don't think that this warrants child abuse, although I would not keep
    my child in this type of environment.  As you may or may not know, my
    wife does in home care.  There is an agreement between her and the
    people she sits for.  My wife told the parents what she does for
    discipline, what kind of activities the children will be doing, car or
    no car, etc.  The children are not allowed off of our premises.  There
    is even a plan if someone should be injured.  
    
    I reccomend in the next (daycare) situation you find yourself in, that
    you draft up a thorough contract covering any and all situations which
    may arise.  This will give you some peace of mind as well as giving you
    guidelines to address any issues in the future.
    
    Mike

    Thank you all for your responses.
    
    As I said before, I do not wish to get her "in trouble".  As it turned
    out, last night when we picked up the kids she was as sweet as pie. 
    She said the kids behaved wonderfully all day.  Not another word was
    said.
    
    I asked her if there was a problem with Monday and she said no, but
    then tried to pry out what we're doing (which is none of her business).
    
    I really feel that when she has a bad day, she just "takes it out" on
    us.  She's only human.  I personally can not deal with this after I've
    worked all day.  I feel she should discuss problems with me, NOT with
    my son.  
    
    She did ASK me if the kids could play at the neighbors and I said I had
    no problem with that.  I can not blame her for that.  But, when she got
    complaints from the neighbors, she should have discussed it with me and
    let me know that they would not be allowed to go there anymore.  That
    would have been fine.
    
    Again this morning, my five-year old daughter said she did not want to
    go there.  When I asked her why, she just said "because".  That's all I
    ever get out of her.
    
    So, I have decided to find another sitter.  I do not want to leave her on
    bad terms as I may need a backup sitter someday.  
    
    Again, thank you all for your wonderful responses.
    

    
    0.:
    
    I would be extremely concerned over my Daycare provider yelling at my
    children.  And, if my 4 year old told me she didn't like going there
    because she was yelled at.  From what you have described I wouldn't
    want her to provide care for my children, nor anyone elses if that is
    how she does it.  If it were me, I think I would report her.  How else
    would the OFC be informed of these types of situations if people just
    pull their kids out and not report the reasons.
    
    just my 2 Cents
    elizabeth
    

I have to say that I don't see child abuse here, but I also don't feel
comfortable with this person, and would feel a sense of urgency to move
my child from there.

I believe she is being unfair, but it does sound as if your son may be
difficult and she is not equipped to deal with such a child.  Perhaps you
both have some problems to work, and neither should ignore them (MY
opinion of course, based on the little info you gave)

Regarding your keeping them on your days off:  I disagree with that but if
she insists you keep them, then you should pay 4/5 of the weekly cost.  If
you let her get away with anything more then you are setting a precedence
and allowing her this injustice.  I'm assuming your child will not be there
any longer but if he was, I'd not tell her when I'm taking vacation - just
drop him off as you normally do, and have a great day!

FWIW,
Kristen

    IMO any attack on a kids self-esteem, especially name calling is verbal
    abuse.  
    
    I have had to deal with this issue of day care providers only being 
    available 'if your working'. Some day care providers operate that
    way...as far as I am concerned  I stay away from those with that
    attitude.
    
    They are providing a service (child care)... and being paid for it.
    What the parent does during that time is none of their business as
    long as the parent can be reached in an emergency.  Obviously there
    should be some give and take too.
    
    One potential provider (I didn't hire her) hit me with this line
    during the interview: "and there will be NO stopping on errands on
    the way home from work... you are to come STRAIGHT here after work"
    
    What was I doing... hiring a mother!
    
    Jeff

    >>I do not feel she has the right to tell him that she doesn't want him
                                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    >>there anymore and she won't take him anymore.
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    She said that??  I'd be furious, and I'd find a new caregiver ASAP. 
    I don't have a real big problem with yelling (the sheer volume of it), 
    but I have a problem with the message that was yelled!  Make sure your 
    son knows that YOU are changing the arrangements because you don't like 
    the way she yelled at him and denigrated him, and because you want the 
    caregiver (not her neighbors) to be watching him.
    
    As for not wanting to burn bridges, I wouldn't feel that THAT bridge
    was safe to cross again anyway!
    
    Leslie
    

    As a working mom of three, I have had quite a few experiences with both
    good and not-so-good daycare situations in private home and "daycare"
    situations.  

    I have to say that I would remove my children from that home immediately.
    If I can't feel that my children are cared for by a caring, loving 
    individual (or group), I can't leave them.  Day care takes up such a
    major portion of their lives, how they are treated will affect them now
    and for the rest of their lives.  I can't take the chance and let 
    someone else hurt my children's self-esteem ---  their most important
    asset.

    I also need to make one more comment regarding daycare while you are
    not at work.  I have no problems with that ... however, I am not surprised
    by your sitter's response, given her general attitude ... but you made
    a comment indicating it is none of her business of your whereabouts (if
    I'm misquoting, I'm sorry).  It is.  If there is an emergency with your
    child, you would want to know.

    Good Luck!

  

    A couple thoughts here, we recently had a dental appointment, no big
    deal just a little tiny cavity to be filled, but before the dentist
    began he asked my permission to use "verbal restraint", I said OK, but
    wasn't quite sure what he was talking about.  It was basically
    permission to raise his voice *just a little*, and speak rather firmly
    to my son, to keep him still in the chair.  As for the way I saw it, he
    didn't really need my permission but it was a nice gesture.  Maybe
    yelling is considered child abuse, I don't really know.
    
    As for you immediate problem, if you think you provider is overwhelmed
    and has too many kids, she probably does.  A license allows 6 kids per
    adult (in MA), but many providers will only take 4 or 5 full time just
    for that reason.  If she is taking more than 6 at a time, then report
    her, she is breaking the law!  From my observations home daycare
    generally is unstructured, unplanned, but in most cases still well
    under control.
    
    Follow you head and heart, if it doesn't feel fuzzy it probably isn't!
    
    Lyn