Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Jasmin,
    
    Sounds to me like your daughter is very smart and knows how to get her
    way. Babies are very manipulative, they are smarter than we think they
    are. If she has done things like this in the past and you rush over to
    her and give her what she wants, she knows that everytime she does it,
    she'll get her way. My 8 month old daughter does this,only she whines 
    instead. In your case though, I'd be afraid to not run to her for fear
    that she might hold her breath too long!  Ask your pediatrician for
    advice, I'm sure they have dealt with situations like this before.
    
    
    Good luck,
    
    Sandy

    
    I think that I've heard somewhere along the way, that the
    breath-holding isn't to be overly concerned about....if it 
    is indeed deliberate.   I recall that if they do hold their
    breath long enough to "pass-out" temporarily, their normal
    breathing will resume immediately.....someone please correct
    me if I'm wrong!!   Course, this battle of wills is easier 
    said than done.
    
    Carol

     My recollection is the same as .2's.  Talk to your Ped, and
I seem to remember Spock and other child references as discussing
the issue.
     DON'T shake a baby in order to arouse it.  Baby's brains and
neck are very, very, fragile, and you can cause serious injury. 
And to add to that tragedy, a parent is almost automatically
suspected of abuse if that happens.
     Also, if it is appropriate to just let the baby pass out, make
sure that she can't hurt herself when she does so.  And, of course
it's easy for me to say,  but don't panic.  I've heard of similar
situations, but never in the context of it resulting in any damage
to the baby.

Clay   

As mentioned before, holding breath is not going to result in any physical
problem, even if the baby passes out, because the breathing reflex instantly
takes over.  However, if you don't feel comfortable with that, try blowing
straight into your childs face, hard.  There seems to be some conditioned
reflex that forces them to want to take a breath.  Of course, the child may
just get mad again and scream and hold breath again, but that's something
to try and is less dramatic than a slap on the bottom.

The other thing to remember too, fortunately, is that it is a phase which
should pass fairly quickly when they realize that they still don't get
what they want ... unless the child is just seeking attention, when of
course, this technique works first time every time!  Under those circumstances
a chat with the doc might be advisable.

Stuart

    I too agree with the previous 2 replies, if she holds her breath long
    enough to pass out, the normal breathing will return and hopefully
    she'll be in a better mood when she reawakens.  
    
    What I used to do is when AJ got so wound up that he would cry and stop
    breathing for a couple seconds, to catch his breath, is use the
    opportunity to blow into his open mouth and face, from a distance not 
    like you would during mouth to mouth recuscitation.  It would seem to 
    startle him into breathing again.  In our case, fortunately, this phase 
    didn't last long.
    
    Sounds like you've got one strong willed girl there, hang in and be
    firm, I said *firm* not tough!  This may be the first of many battles
    of the will you're going to face.  Who knows many strong willed
    children turn into born leaders!
    
    Lyn

    
    I might be wrong here, but I thought that babies this young didn't
    actually KNOW how to manipulate anyone!  My understanding from what
    I've read is that a baby cries simply because it needs something and
    that it isn't clever enough at this age to try to get its own way by
    "playing up". I thought the manipulation part didn't start until the 
    baby reached it's first year.
    
    Please tell me if I'm misinformed because this is the way I've been
    handling my six-month old daughter - attending to her needs each time
    she cries - in the hope that if I satisfy her needs quickly enough,
    she'll grow up to be exactly the opposite of a manipulating child - a
    satisfied, content one who doesn't *have* to scream every time she
    wants something.
    
    Ali
    

    RE:  .6
    
    I don't know what date the 'experts' set for the upper limit on
    coddling, but I certainly started out that way with my daughter.  It
    was very appropriate for the first few months, for the same reasons you
    gave.
    
    Since approximately 4 or 5 months I've gradually scaled back on the
    instant responsiveness.  I feel my daughter (now 7 months) is quite
    aware and capable of manipulation.    I certainly feel there is a lot
    of interaction between us, and that she is aware of it.
    
    She has learned to hold her own bottle when I'm too busy to pick her up
    or when she sits in my lap drinking, while I eat.  She cries to be in
    the same room with me.  I try to distract her with toys in her playpen,
    or put her in her walker or on the floor in the room where I am.  But I
    usually don't carry her around as I work.  I let her cry for a couple
    of minutes when I'm moving around the house and can't carry both a baby
    and a basket of laundry or bags of groceries.  
    
    Just my way.  I think she's doing fine.
    
    Laura

    re .6
    
    The earliest threshold I've seen written for "manipulation" is 9
    months...after that you have to discern between "wants" and
    "needs"...my rule has been to try to give them some of their wants, and
    all of their needs.  That being said, however, sometimes their "needs"
    conflict with my "needs"...and, sometimes I do put myself first.
    
    Susan

Our pediatrician talked about stopping the instant response at about 4 months.
This had less to do with manipulative behavior than with developing some "self
calming" skills.  In particular he said that if she cried when we put her in
bed, we should try to ignore it for a few minutes before going back in to
comfort her.

Considering that Melissa already figured out that pushing the buttons on the
remote control made the TV change (though with no idea which buttons do what)
at about 6 months and that dropping things so that we could pick them up was
fun at about 7 months.  I wouldn't be surprised to find other manipulative
understanding that early.

Dick

    Manipulation ...
    
    Try within a few WEEKS!  Our first *VERY* quickly discovered that a
    certain type of crying brought Mum or Dad nore quickly if she
    decided it was attention she wanted!
    
    The other two were a couple months before it was really noticeable!
    
    Stuart

    It varies from child to child.  Kat engaged in definite
    "manipulative" behavior at four months, while I don't think David
    was capable of that kind of action until he was over a year old.
    
    It can happen any time they're old enough to know that they want
    something different from what you want, or that you're not going
    to give them something they want -- usually in connection with the
    beginnings of mobility, which is the first time they really have
    the ability to get into things that they shouldn't have.  Now
    whether the conscious thought process is "I'm going to cry until
    she gives this to me" or "I can't have it, wahhhhh!!!!!!" the
    result is about the same. 
    
    That said, the baby in the basenote seems awfully young for
    breath-holding temper tantrums.  Have you had her checked
    thoroughly by a pedicatrician?  It sounds like the physical
    changes from crying might be causing her throat to spasm, or
    something.  
    
    --bonnie

    
    re: .11   
    
    I agree that the baby in the basenote sounds too young for a breath
    -holding tantrum.   What I thought she might be doing is crying so 
    hard and long that she forgets to breathe....

    I didn't realize that shaking a baby might cause serious injury; I did
    that to Pris and it didn't do any good.  Guess I better not do that
    again.  Thanks for the advise.
    
    It does seem that Pris was doing it deliberately because she had
    that kind of sympathetic look (Carry me mummy,please) before she lost
    her cool.
    
    I'm glad to know that this phase won't go on forever (mentioned in .5).
    Even if it does, it's so assuring to hear that from a experienced
    mother.  I have tried to be firm but I became too soft hearted in the
    end.  Guess I have to be more strong willed than Pris.  
    
    Will try the blowing into baby's face tactic should Pris go into one of
    her crazy moods.
    
    Indeed, lot of friends and relatives says my little one is too smart
    for her own good; no wonder she drives me up the wall!! I love her just
    the same anyway.
    
    Jasmin
    
    

I know that it's just a matter of words, but I'm uncomfortable about talking
about infants being "manipulative".  The word "manipulation" (to me, anyways)
carries connotations of (1) conscious intent, and (2) "underhandedness".

I don't disagree at all that infants learn quickly what sorts of behavior
will be most effective in getting their wants and needs satisfied.  I'm
just concerned that a parent who thinks of his or her infant's behavior
(and ultimately, of the infant itself) as manipulative may be building
a set of attitudes that are not going to be helpful in the long run.

	-Neil

    Good point, Neil.  I think perhaps the reason some of us don't get
    upset by the idea is that we don't think of "manipulative" as
    necessarily either underhanded or planned.  It's reasonable kids
    should try to get what they want. 

    Jasmin, it may be that what Pris needs is more reassurance in
    strange places rather than more will.  It might be "carry me,
    mummy, please, I'm real scared here" rather than "you're going to
    carry me or else."
    
    --bonnie

    Without being able to observe the child, I would have some concern as
    to her loss of air and turning blue.  It "may" be that she is holding
    her breath to get your attention ... it may also be that her upper
    airway is becoming inflamed and swollen because of the irritation
    caused by the crying and it eventually causes an obstructed airway.  Be
    careful not to jump to the wrong conclusions without being able to
    "see" what is really happening.  If you have any questions/concerns,
    you should consult your doctor.
    
    Infants and young children with obstructed airways very quickly go into
    cardiac arrest - the largest cause of death in infants is obstructed
    airways.  If you don't know infant/child/adult CPR, I would recommend
    you take a course at your local Red Cross.
    
    Also, as stated previously, shaking an infant or child can cause
    serious harm to the child.  They have unstable vertibra and there brain
    has not yet fully developed into its skull.   DO NOT shake your child
    under any conditions.  One harmless way to get their attention if need
    be is to flick your finger on the bottom of their feet.  This will
    arrouse them if sleeping and sometime interrupt a tantrum.
     
    Good Luck
    
    Chuck Boutcher
    EMT-B
                                                

    From the American Heritage Dictionary:
    
    manipulation 1. The act of manipulating.  2.  Shrewd or devious
    management, esp. for one's own advantage
    
    manipulate 1.  To operate or control by skilled use of the hands;
    handle. 2. To influence or manage shrewdly or deviously: "He
    manipulated public opinion in his favor."
    
    shrewd 1. Having keen insight: astute.  2.  Artful, cunning.
    Shrewd stresses perceptiveness, hardheadedness, cunning, and an
    intuitive knack in practical matters.
    
    devious 1.  Deviating from the straight or direct course: roundabout. 
    2.  Departing from the correct or proper way: erring.  3.  Not
    straightforward: shifty.
    
    
    I hope that our children manage us shrewdly; they are utterly dependent
    on us for their care and sustenance!

    Rick tells me that I am Priscilla's security blanket and not that Pris
    is trying to manipulate me.  I think she might be too young for that,
    however we must realize that babies can get bored,tired,sleepy,etc and
    that they can't speak so crying is their only way of communicating to
    us. I think I'm getting good at guessing what Pris needs.  The strange 
    thing is that Rick and I give Pris the same amount of love and care
    when she was born until now but Pris isn't so clingy to him or
    appreciate him.  Rick feels quite rejected - poor chap.  Why is Pris
    behaving this way and is it just a phase.

I think, given the age and the fact that she's a shy baby, that Pris is pretty
normal in wanting you.  Elise is very social, but I'm beginning to be the
center of the universe.  She likes other people, wants to talk to them, smiles
a lot, but can be totally distracted if I speak, even from a different room.

According to Penelope Leach, a baby needs to attach emotionally to one person
for a while.  My own opinion is that it gives them the security and stability
to explore the world.  I don't think it's a coincidence that the strongest 
attachment seems to happen at about when they learn to walk and crawl.  
Suddenly they have all these physical skills that allow them to
move around and explore on their own.  It must be very scary for them.

    What noter .19 said sound familiar to what I'm experiencing.  Pris
    smiles, plays with anybody, PROVIDED I'm carrying her.  I do feel soooo
    good when I pick up Pris after work as she will break into a huge grin
    the moment she sees me and will even stretch her arms out to ME !! 
    I can imagine that a baby needs some security when they 'realize' that
    there are so many things to explore and discover.
    
    Patiently waiting for the day she grows out of her breath-holding.

Breath-holding should not be taken lightly!

My son who is now two and a half years old, has been diagnosed as
having a developmental problem which causes him at times to lose his 
ability to breath.  

My first observation of Daniel's breath holding tendencies occurred
when he was about four and a half months old.  It was characterized 
by his inability to make a crying noise and a blueish tint about 
his mouth and eyes.  After the first noticeable time, his breath 
holding spells became longer in duration and more pronounced
(turning very blue about his mouth and eyes, stiffening of his
entire body along with his eyes rolling toward his forehead).

On several occasions, I spoke with his pediatrician who instructed
us to 1) blow in his face, 2) use cold cloths on his face, and 
3) protect him if he were to pass out.  Daniel never passed out.

However, at 14 months, Daniel had a ten minute seizure brought on
by a breath holding spell.  911 arrived, administered first aid and
transported him to the hospital.  Our pediatrician's partner met
us at the hospital, did an examination and admitted him for 48 hours
of monitoring and various tests.  The tests consisted of 1) blood work,
2) Cat Scan, 3) mental and physical developmental testing to determine
skills and to check for any damages that may have occurred due to 
the seizure, and 4) an EEG to check brain waves for epilepsy.  

Daniel came through all test with flying colors.  However, what the
Neurologist diagnosed was that Daniel had a developmental deficiency
in that his body could not respond normally to fear, pain and anger.

The way the Neurologist explained it was that as adults our heart
rate goes up when we experience anger, pain, and fear.  This causes
the blood to flow faster.  However, with Daniel his heart rate decreases
and in the process fails to push adequate oxygen and blood to the brain.
The normal response for the brain when deprived of oxygen is to cause a
seizure.  This is called Anoxic Reflex "something."  His Neurologist
simply told us to do what most people have been doing for years...
Turn him completely upside-down (while providing adequate support against
our bodies) and gently blow in his face.  He said gravity would help the 
flow of the blood to the brain and lessen the chance of Daniel having a 
seizure.  During his spells, Daniel is fully aware that he can't get his 
breath and will oftentimes, claw at his mouth in his attempt to breath.  
It can take several seconds (seems likes minutes) for Daniel to regain 
his breath.

The good news is that Daniel is expected to out grow the breath holding 
spells between the ages of four and five.  Currently, we take steps to 
minimize  potential hazardous situations for Daniel, but still allow him 
to experience different levels of emotions to help him grow and develop.

He is not a manipulative child but rather a child who has a developmental
need that was not completely satisfied when he was born.

    I do hope that Daniel will out-grow these breath-holding spells.  It
    can be very worrisome for the parents.  My heart ache when it happened
    to Pris and I noticed that it happened when Pris appeared very
    tired and I was too slow in carrying her and that's when she decided
    that she really needs her mum, so out came the face turning blue
    symptom.
    
    We are still very cautious about Pris whenever she cries.  We wouldn't
    let her cry for too long to play it safe.
    
    On the other hand, I try not to run over to carry out in case it
    becomes a habit and so far things are running smoothly. She can stay in
    her cot for about 1/2 hr talking to herself when I refuse to get up
    from bed. She seems to sense that I am not ready to get up yet.  She
    can sense it when I am up and about and that's when she would start
    making noises to tell me that she wants me and only me.
    
    Here's hoping breathing-holding spells will be a thing of the past.