Conference moira::parenting_v3

Kate,

Are you in the market for some support, even if it doesn't come with any
useful advice?  I know how you feel!  This is the MOST frustrating phase
(so far!) that we've been through!  Your wonderful reasonable child 
suddenly MAKE NO SENSE.  It is hard and it does pass, really it does.

But you did ask for advice that doesn't fall into the categories you've 
already gotten, and this is what worked for me:

- distraction.  I know this is usually applied to much younger kids, but my
mom recently used it for her kids fighting in the back seat (they were in 
their LATE 20's - details on request)  I really don't think you can out-
stubborn a preschooler, but sometimes you can "change the channel".  I know
this takes some creativity, and these kids only hit you with this stuff when
you have nothing left, but dredge it up when you can

- humor.  This takes even more effort, but once you practice a while, it 
comes much easier.  It means catching the situation early, which is sort of
a solution in itself

- bribes.  Never underestimate a good old bribe.  Instead of a general 
reward for going outside each day, I've had more success with specifics - 
a new (to him) toy that is only used outside, etc.  A great example of 
this is bubbles to get into the tub (courtesy this conference)

- appreciation.  You have an intense, healthy, bright kid, normal for his
age.  I remember looking at Sally when I was ready to burst and doing a
variation on counting to 10: saying "4 4 4 4 4", which reminded me that she
was 4 and that this was just part of the developmental deal.

- screaming.  Do it.  Get it out.  Get it together.  Start over.  As long as
you don't scream something distructive or scream in anyone's ear, it won't
hurt a bit.

Good luck Kate.  

Jane

    
    Kate..
    
    I know this doesn't have anything to do with helping you with your sons
    temper/stubborn problem, but in reading your note, I couldn't help but
    reply to one small tidbit I read.
    
    You said something about the daycare woman putting the kids in the 
    "big part" of the carriage...???  I'm not sure how old the boys are,
    but that move can be very dangerous!  My girlfriends son, 21 mos, just
    ended up with a concussion (sp?) last week, after falling out of the
    shopping cart.  He was standing up in the "big part" leaning against
    the cart, when he just FLIPPED over and onto the floor.  I guess the
    wasn't a problem before when he was smaller, but as he grows taller, 
    the sides of the cart are now at his "middle" back, and he just leaned back
     too far, and Boom!  It scared the daylights out of my friend, and she 
    had to rush him straight to the hospital to be checked out. he really 
    hit the floor good. 
    
    I just thought I'd mention this...(and since I am a "to-be" mom, I plan
                                       on filing this memory in my brain so
    				       I don't let the same thing happen)
    
    Mod: feel free to move if necessary.
    
    Chris
                  

Kate:

Juli, too, has a very strong will.

What we found worked was:

	.  Consistentcy!!!  Bedtime is ALWAYS 8 pm.  ALWAYS one nap
	   a day.  Once in a great while we might miss it (holiday, etc),
	   but 95% of the time it's consistency!

	.  We do not believe in rewarding Juli for doing what is expected
	   of her (eg. good behavior!).  We commend her for being good
	   "Honey, you were soooo good in the restaurant this evening ...
	   an extra pat, an extra tight hug, but NO rewards (candy).
	   We don't beg and plead (if you are good tonight, you can have
	   an ice cream sundae or stay up late ...).  Rewards will be
	   given for doing something "extra"  (eg. helping Grandma rake
	   leaves ...).  If we buy her something she wants, we try NOT to
	   label it so she thinks she can get another one the next time by
	   invoking the same behavior (or action).

	.  We don't speak more than twice ... "Juli, don't touch that ...".
	   Followed by "I won't speak again ..." ... followed by ACTION!
	   And she knows!  To the point she won't "quite-touch" it the
	   second time, but wants you aware that she's taking her second
	   chance anyway.

	.  No means "no" ... We don't change our minds.  I just hate 
	   watching parents cave into kids because the kids wore them down
	   "Mommy, can I have Coke" ... "No!" ... "Mommy, please" ... "no..."
	   "Mommy, I'll just die if I don't get some Coke" ... "....nooo?..."
	   "Mommy, pleaseeeee, just a sip ..." ... "well, OK, just a sip ...".
	   awwwggghhh!  (Mom just survived the moment at hand, but the
	   stage has now been set for one heck of a war tomorrow!)

I'm not saying Jim/I are in control because we do the above.  It only sets
the boundaries ... we still fight Juli's daily tugging, pushing and testing of
these boundaries, but Jim/I have found that by agreeing on the above, Juli
learns and understands the minimum LIMITS, while Jim/I can maintain a certain
amount of control within limits which WE HAVE BOTH AGREED UPON -- Juli gets
the same consistent feedback whether she's pushing Jim OR pushing me.

I also have to give Jim the credit for "controling" me, too.  It was very
easy for me to agree with Jim that the above was good and necessary, but it
was an ENTIRELY different story to actually "live it and carry it out" 
(especially after a long, difficult trying day!).  So early on, Jim was
fighting to keep me in the corner, while trying to teach Juli the limits.  I
had to let go and let Jim take on Juli.  I knew he was right, but I was the
softie.  Took only a short amount of time and a few very bloody battles for me
to realize it WORKS!  (And sometimes I would take a walk while Jim took on
Juli -- eg. getting Juli to go to bed at 8 pm and NOT throw a tantrum in the 
crib!)

JIM got Juli to go to bed EVERY NIGHT, 8 pm sharp, hugs/kisses - no tears!
He got her to stop after the first "no!".  He lets her cry how ever long it
takes for her to realize tears won't solve all her demands/problems  (last 
night Juli stood at the kitchen door and bawled for an hour because all the
neighborhood kids had to leave her backyard and go home at dusk ... broke
my heart! ... I wanted to take Juli outside "in the dark" and give her a
ride on her swing, but Jim said "no, she'll learn that every day ends and a
new one begins tomorrow ...", but God how my heart ached watching Juli learn 
this lesson!).  Juli finally stopped crying just in time to take a tub 
and go to bed (without any tears!).

KIDS!!!!  Even heartburn doesn't hurt like some of my heart-aches while Juli's
learning about life!

Dottie

PS.  Jim obviously has a stronger will than Juli & ME ... to be able to hold
     me in the corner with his left hand, while controlling Juli's situation
     with his right hand!  But now that I see how effective he's been, I
     spend very little time in the corner now, but center court WITH JIM!
     -- Look out Juli!

    re .2's anecdote - that's probably why Stop & Shop has international-
    symbol type warnings (circle with diagonal line) ON THE CART SEATS
    showing, in no uncertain terms, that it's against store rules for
    anyone to ride in the "big part of the cart" or hang from the sides or
    front.
    
    set flame/high
    
    Grocery shopping is NOT CHILD CARE in my book.
    
    set flame/pilot-light
    
    Leslie

    We did use the reward system with our daughter.  She was giving us a
    real hard time about bed time (and she's in a bed, therefore she can
    get out of her room and scream down the hall).  Anyway, my husband is
    the Assistant Principle at a school that is based on Assertive
    Discipline.  What this means is, the rules are spelled out clearly, if
    you do not follow the rules there are consequences, if you follow the
    rules there are rewards.
    
    Well, with Cara (3 years old) we started a sticker chart.  She would
    get three stickers if she went to bed w/o screaming, etc...  If by the
    end of the week her chart was full, then we would reward her with a
    video, playland, NOT candy.  It worked for us.  We keep that sticker
    chart on the fridge, Cara gets to pick her out the stickers she wants,
    and she places them on the block.
    
    My husband did a survey at his school and 100% of the teachers felt the
    Assertive Discipline policy was extremely effective.
    
    AS others have said, there must be consistency though.
    
    Good luck... 3 year olds are so much fun!?!?!?!?
    

    To the basenoter....are you sure MY son isn't living at your house???
    We've started lately refusing to ride in the seat part of the grocery
    cart, rather insisting that he push is, of course while putting
    anything within his reach into the card.
    
    Is you child (son/daughter? I can't remember) still taking *2* naps a
    day?  I'd consider that a minor miracle.  AJ gave up 2 naps a day
    shortly before 2.  He sleeps well for 2 to 3 hours a day, in the
    afternoon.  But recently he's been fighting us on weekends about taking
    any nap at all, he's 4+4 months.  He will lay in bed, and maybe doze
    off for a short while, and at this point I'd guess he's doing the same
    at daycare.
    
    He's *very* indpendant, very "daddy" oriented.  Dad's his HERO!  He
    tries his limits, gets disciplines for stepping outside his limits, and
    is generally giving both of us many, many grey hairs!!
    
    We've tried discipline for bad deeds, he has had a problem with toilet
    accidents the last couple weeks, and I finally decided after all the
    depriving, disciplining, sending him to bed with no TV that what have I
    got to loose.  Tuesday he had had an accident, and even though he'd
    been told that I would not take him with me when I work out, (we both
    swim after my work out, and usually stop for McD's on the way home) I
    knew I had to work out, and work off some frustration, so I did work
    out, and we did swim, briefly, and we did stop for a burger.  and for
    whatever reason he had an accident free day yesterday.  So last night
    my husband and I stopped on the way home to get lumber to build him a
    sandbox, and stopped at his second favorite place, Abdow's, for supper,
    and let's see if we've had another good day, (which I'd like to hope
    for).
    
    What this rambling is all about is I know I shouldn't be rewarding for
    mis-behavior, but what have I got to loose?  The other thing we've seen
    lately is if we speak to him harshly, especially daddy, who's his
    "hero" he bursts out in tears.  Is this part of the age of being 4?
    
    Help me out TOO!!
    Lyn

    Lyn (.6) brought something to mind...  my daughter had been sticking
    out her tongue (which I can't stand) and everytime she did, I would
    make her do time out, and I'd tell her that sticking out her tongue was
    not nice.  Well, it seemed she was doing it more and more.  Anyway, I
    was complaining about it to my mother and she said "Why don't you just
    ignore her when she does it".  Well, I did and it worked.  She no
    longer sticks out her tongue.
    
    Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying to ignore bad behavior.  I just
    feel for myself personally, that I tended to "over time out" and I think
    this can create alot of frustration in the child. I've started to 
    ignore alot of things that I know are just happening because she's
    either overtired, hungry or I'm overtired or hungry!!
    
    My daughter isn't an angel, she has her bad days... but then again, we
    all have bad days!!  We can't be good everyday. 

    I've been trying to do what .7 is doing, ignore annoying but basically
    harmless behavior.  On the other hand, when I say, "Let's pick up
    our toys now," or "Please don't stand so close to the TV set," I
    don't wish to say it three or four or five times.  
    
    This morning I had *another* talk with the sitter.  Apparently James
    walked up to Kevin and bopped him on the head with a toy bowling pin.
    That earned him a good stiff time-out.  (If I'd seen him do it, it
    would have earned him no TV till his 5th birthday, but that's another
    story.)  Elaine says this was an unprovoked attack, and since she saw
    him do it, she intervened right away.  My question is, if your kid
    does something extra-naughty at day care, do you/should you follow up
    the sitter's time out with a disciplinary measure at home?  Part of
    me says yes, to reinforce the idea that limits are limits.  On the
    other hand, if you didn't see it happen, is it fair to do so?
    
    James doesn't play much -- if at all -- with other kids on the
    weekends.  Since I don't usually see him play with other kids, I
    assume that he's doing well, unless I get told otherwise, like I
    did yesterday and today.  Mike tried talking to him last night,
    but James played "in one ear, out the other."  Is this kid going
    to grow up to be a juvenile delinquent?  What can I do to make an 
    impression on him?  If I yell, he yells back.  If I put him in his
    room for a time-out, he just flings open the door and marches right
    back down the hall.  If I spank him, he yells, "Don't spank me!"
    and it makes him more aggressive with other people.  I scolded him
    this morning and he said, "I don't like you."  I told him he could go
    to the Mommy Store over the weekend and pick out a new mommy.
    
    The terrible twos, my foot!!!!!!!!
    
    Ready to give him back to the stork,
    Kate
    

    Re. -1 -- I personally don't think you should further punish a child at
    home for something he did hours earlier in daycare.  The incident is
    long forgotten in his mind, and he will not make the connection with
    your punishment and what he did.  He will only take it as your
    disapproval for SOMETHING he did, but not what he did.
    
    Furthermore, you are not raising a juvenile delinquent.  Now, this is
    Just My Opinion, but children grow and learn by many processes.  One of
    these processes is by testing the children around them.  One of the
    ways they test, particularly for boys, is through physical pushing,
    hitting, roughhousing etc.  They act out and establish a pecking order
    through physical acts.  Girls on the other hand, establish a pecking
    order, especially around the ages of four and five, by relationships. 
    Who likes who, who plays with whom, who is the best friend etc.  I've
    seen it in action, and if you have a child of each sex and are
    observant, you will see these types of behaviour come through.
    
    So, to see your son with these behaviors should not be too surprising
    to you.  How you treat these behaviors is the key.  Make him understand
    that hitting is not OK, but don't go off the deep end :*) thinking
    you're somehow rainsing MR. Future Delinquent of 2002.  Get some good
    books and read about the behavior of the typical 4 year old.  I think
    you'd be surprised and relieved at just how normal he is!
    

    >On the other hand, when I say, "Let's pick up our toys now," or
    >"Please don't stand so close to the TV set," I don't wish to say
    >it three or four or five times.
    
    One thing that sometimes helps is accompany the second telling by
    physical action -- "please don't stand so close to the TV set" as
    you pick him up and move him back to what you consider an
    appropriate distance.  I don't mean disciplinary action, just
    something that reinforces your message so he associates the
    request with the response.  Conditioning, I guess.
    
    On your other issue -- it depends on the severity of the offense
    whether we add discipline at home.  For something that would
    generally only be dealt with on the spot, we don't usually do
    more.  If it would involve more than an immediate time-out, or
    cleanup, or whatever, then we assess the appropriate long-term
    measure.  
    
    My own opinion is that James is a little young for punishments
    that last longer than a day.  I don't think a kid that age has the
    conceptual view to understand "long-term consequences" of his
    action, and perceives it only as you being mean to him.  
    
    --bonnie

    
    Would an age-appropriate punishment for not picking up toys on
    request be that the toys be taken away for x amount of time?
    I don't know if it would work or what x should be, just an
    idea.... 
    carol

    re: double discipline....
    
    My oldest (now 6) is easily moved to whack his younger brother (now 4
    and easily takes care of himself) for something that angers him.  Then
    he will come to me and tell me what his brother did and expect me to
    punish little brother.  I told him I am not going to punish him because
    you already did by whacking him.  If you want me to take care of the
    problem, then you have to stay out of it.
    
    What I am getting at (by taking the long road here) is that the child
    should be disciplined once, but you should talk with him and let him
    know that you are aware of what happened and that (care provider) did
    the right thing.  You are disappointed that he purposely hurt someone
    and you want him to control his behaviour (or whatever you feel is an
    appropriate discussion).  I would definately let him know that you were
    made aware and that you are disappointed in his actions.
    
    -sandy
    

    Within the last couple of months (late 3's early 4's) my daughter has been
    put "on the bench" several times at daycare.  I feel that she is old
    enough to understand that we disapprove of the behavior that caused her
    to get a timeout.  I don't consider a timeout punishment.
    
    Therefore, she knows that if she has been on the bench during the day
    there will be no TV that evening.  She takes the punishment, even as far
    as to go to her room until dinner without being asked.
    
    The incidents at school have decreased markedly and the teachers value
    the fact that we re-enforce them at home. I don't consider it double
    punishment nor do I feel that she can't connect the two at her age.
    

Kate:

Couple of things come to mind ... (remembering no two kids are alike, etc.
etc. etc....).

When Juli was in homecare, her behavior was FAR worse than it is in daycare.
Why?  

First off, the sitter had a child a little older than Juli which meant
Juli was always competing on Elizabeth's turf (my Mommy, my toys, my this and
that).  People say as long as the provider is FAIR, it's OK ... I totally
disagree!  I think an outsider kid has it a lot tougher when s/he's on another
kid's turf!

Secondly, no matter how hard you try ... "sometimes" you can't help but side
with your kid (over another kid) ... or it just seems that way ... maybe 
because the outsider kid is being raised with different limits and values
which doesn't always mesh with the sitter's or the sitter's kid(s) ... but
just the other day I observed our EX-sitter's kid and another kid (she was
babysitting) parading through the flower bed.  I heard "Andrew! blah, blah ...",
but NEVER heard "Elizabeth! ...".

Differences in parenting styles was also a problem for us.  For example,
the sitter would let the kids have bloody fights over toys, while I would 
get involved if they couldn't resolve it within a minute or so.
By the sitter letting the kids slug it out, the strongest/biggest and most
persistent was victorious (and bullious!) and Juli became very agressive
and overly protective of toys and things (eg. HER lunch, HER coat, HER boots...).
Some days she would come home so frustrated she wanted to kick the dog! ... not
to mention Juli soon figured out the only way a "runt" (like her) could win
was by resorting to biting, scratching, kicking and playing down-right dirty!
Juli's behavior carried over into OUR home life, too!

Within JUST ONE WEEK of daycare, Juli's behavior did a complete 180!  I cannot
begin to tell you the positive impactSSSS it has had on Juli.  And the feedback
from daycare just busts Jim/my buttons!  She's calmed down and become so
loveable that it's SCARY!  So I have to say the change in her environment had
a BIG impact on her behavior.  She's been in daycare for 7 weeks now and hasn't
hit a kid yet ... or thrown a tandrum ... or set the stage for confrontation ...

As for punishing ... I remember as a child that if I did something wrong
outside our home and this "deed" (striking another child) was also against 
my parents' rules, I was punished TWICE (eg. by the teacher AND by my parents).
But often my parents kept the "home punishment" a little on the lighter side
knowing that we already paid our dues once, but they wanted us to know they
would not tolerate our behavior any differently OFF-site.  (My sister 
followed this practice with her kids ... and we'll probably do the same 
with Juli.)

Not sure if this helps, Kate ... keeping in mind. kids will be kids!, but we
saw a huge difference in Juli after changing her environment to one of 
"equality" and more similarities of limits, expectations and acitvities to
that of her "home" life.

Dottie

PS:  Please, let's not get into a HEATED DEBATE comparing homecare to
     daycare ... the point I'm making is the change was a good one FOR
     JULI ... and US.

    I try to take at daycare discipline and class it three ways, as
    follows:
    1) no big deal, sometimes the teacher disciplines him for things I'd
    ovelook.
    2)OK he deserved to be punished, I agree with what the teacher did.
    3) BIG major offense! (biting,shoving,kicking, not doing what he was
    told to do several times, or doing something outright dangerous and he
    should've known so, such as running out into a parking lot)
    
    For the first two I deal with it by feeling OK it's over, he's been
    sufficentlyl punished.  The third I let him know I definitely aggree
    with the teachers' actions, and while we're away from daycare and if I
    can see the same thing starting, I will say "remember how you did
    [suchand such] at school, remember how you had to do time out?  Would
    you like to do a time out now for that same thing?  Usually he realizes
    it was a big offense at school and now mom (or dad) is NOT going to
    tolerate it either, and he'd better "knock it off" as we put it!
    
    Let me also re-recommend a book called "Toddler Taming".  I bought mine
    at Kmart, and it's been an invaulable help.
    
    Just some thoughts.
    Lyn