Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Mary I can't comment on what you ought to be doing, just to say
    Congratulations!  From where I sit, you've got a rather impressive
    youngster on your hands!
    
    I am envious of you.
    Lyn

    
    I think it's normal. My niece Molly can do all those things. She can
    spell her name and address and can remember all her Aunt's phone
    numbers. I have 33 nieces and nephews and I honestly think kids are
    much smarter today. I didn't learn how to read until I went to 1st
    grade
    and I'm only 30.
    
    bonnie

    Sounds about where Steven and Kat were at that age -- Kat might
    have been a bit ahead in math.  
    
    Kids who have been encouraged to learn, without being pushed, so
    they enjoy what they're doing, can do some amazing things.  I'm
    beginning to think that one of the problems with the school system
    isn't that we expect too much from kids as that we expect too
    little and most kids are bored by the time they hit school.  
    
    As to what will happen in kindergarten -- who knows.  A lot
    depends on which school system you're in and what teacher your son
    draws in that system.  Most of the Nashua half-day kindergarten
    classes are so busy trying to help the kids who don't even know
    their letters yet catch up that the kids who already know words
    are neglected.  Steven's private kindergarten dug out some old
    "See Dick run" books for Steven and another child who were quite a
    bit ahead of the rest of the class.
    
    re: .2
    
    In the fifties and sixties, "they" discouraged parents from trying
    to teach children to read.  I could read at 5, without ever having
    tried to learn, and when I got to school, I remember the teachers
    reading my mother a scathing lecture about how she had "interfered
    with the normal learning process" and who did she think she was
    that she knew better than trained professionals, and would she
    please keep out of my education from now on because they could see
    already they were going to have trouble with me trying to undo all
    the bad habits she'd taught me.  (Pretty much verbatim, and yes,
    they said this in front of me.)
    
    --bonnie

I figured out how to read at 4 years.  (I really, really wanted to know what
those books said!)  I don't consider myself particularly smart, altho I do well
at pattern recognition - which may be all I was doing.

I very much hope that schools have improved since I was in kindergarten and
1st grade.  I still resent the fact that they would only let me check out books
for my grade, instead of my reading ability.  (If you ever want to get me going,
ask me about being bored in school - for years.) 

    
    I smell a rat-hole!
    
    Here's one of my less-than-memorable grade school experiences (Plantation, 
    FL): my  5th grade teacher made students who finish their in-class work
    early (i.e. me) put their head down on their desk "and rest" until the
    rest of the class finished!!   Sure, punish the achiever, makes sense to 
    me :-(  !   We didn't live there very long needless to say. 
    carol

    re: .4
    
    Yeah, I remember that battle even when Kat was in first and second
    grade (8-9 years ago).  We had to go in and meet personally with
    the teacher and librarian and insist that Kat be allowed to check
    out fourth-grade books.  And then she only got one a week, even
    though she could read that one in one or two evenings.  Then it
    was wait until next week.  
    
    --bonnie

    Mary,
    
    sounds like your son and mine are very much alike !!  Matt started
    reading at a very early age, just because he liked to !  We used
    to drive down the road and he'd start reading all the signs - after
    a while, it got to be a real challenge because there weren't
    "different" ones around too often.  Now, he's into reading (would
    you believe !) a children's version of the Bible that's written
    on a 3-rd grade reading level and a children's version of an
    encyclopedia that is ranked for use between 3-rd grade and high
    school !!!!  And, no, I didn't "push" him to read either but did
    spend lots of time reading to him when he was young plus he sees
    me reading a lot when I have "SPARE" time :-} !!
    
    Matt went into Kindergarten this year and I too was concerned that
    he would be "held back" so I talked with the principal and the teachers
    about it.  Once they all saw how well he could read, they worked
    with me very well to keep him motivated !!  Some of the things they
    did was let him go pick a book to read on his own while they were
    doing things like phoenics - he'd read the book and then give the
    teacher a little "report" on it - it was helpful in letting them
    see how much he was not only reading but comprehending.  Other times,
    they are giving him worksheets to do or having HIM read the story
    to the kids instead of them !!!  They said this last part really
    seemed to help get OTHER kids interested in reading too.
    
    They haven't finished the official "testing" yet, but the teacher
    told me they expect he'll test at (her words, not mine :-) !) a
    high first-grade, low second grade level if not higher !!  When he
    goes into first grade next year, they will put him with kids at his LEVEL
    not his grade when it comes to reading, which means he'll go with
    a group of kids older/younger who are reading 2nd grade (if that's
    where he is), so he'll continue to keep motivated !!
    
    My advice, when you register him for Kindergarten, talk with the
    teachers/principal !!  We even had a "get acquainted" session before
    school started and I "suggested" to Matt that he read a story to
    the teacher - he picked one of THEIR books that he had never seen
    before and did a wonderful job !!

    Enjoy him !
    Debbi
    

    
    re. .0
    
    
    I think it's normal. My daughter could count to 100, do simple
    addition and subtraction (no carrying over), counting by 2's, 
    understood simple physical/biological/chemical concepts, 
    could read some Dr. Seuss books, etc, about the same age.
    
    She is almost 6 now and she's interested about the road signs
    and rules of driving...;-( I can't talk and drive at the
    same time! SHe's also very curiuos about the universe. 
    
    You can help to keep this urge to learn growing.
    We put on PBS a lot and she actually enjoys adult programs
    like "This Old House", "NOVA", "Frugal Gournet", etc. These 
    programs seems to open up her mind so much, it's amazing.
    
    
    
    
    Eva
    

    re: .5
    
    Carol,
    
    I am also a product of the lousy schools in Florida.  Where did you go
    to highschool.  I went to Margate Middle School and then to Northeast
    High.  The Schools back then were so obsessed with desegregation that
    they had little time for anything else.  I'm so glad that my children
    do not have to deal with that problem.  Here in Texas they pretty much
    put them in the reading group according to their abilities.  Same goes
    for Math.  My daughter is in an accelerated math group, and on level
    reading group, while my son is in a below level reading group and on
    level math group. She is in third grade and he is in second.  They are
    both bringing home all A's and B's which is great for their ego's.  I
    think by being place at the correct level they become even more
    motivated instead of becoming frustrated or bored.  I think It's great!
    
    regards,
    
    Lynne C.
     

    .3 reminds me (sort of) of a poem I just read sitting in the lobby at our
    elementary school (Katie in speech therapy).  The poem was written by
    someone who before school age loved to look/have books read at home.  Well,
    when it came time to go to school she thought it was great because she
    would finally be able to learn how to read for herself.  The teacher 
    started the phonics lessons and the person was upset with all this stuff 
    she had to learn beforehand.  After a few weeks the teacher asked for a 
    volunteer to read some words and the person in the poem volunteered, she 
    got confused on the vowel sound on one of the words.  To make a long story
    short the teacher gave her a look of disapproval and she person never
    volunteered again, and ended up in remedial classes working on the
    vowel sounds.  At home she continued to love to read, the never asked
    at school, so she never told them.
    
    The person who wrote the poem, is now a teacher of a 1st/2nd grade
    classroom.
    
    I wonder if this is the reason why some schools aren't using phonics
    anymore for teaching?
        

    I think he's way ABOVE average .... at least of all the 4-5 year olds
    that I know, and (no offense guys!) especially for a boy, since they do
    tend to be a bit behind the girls academically.
    
    How wonderful for you and your family!!!
    

    re: .0
    
    Most of the kids I know can read and do simple math at 4.  So
    I think it is normal.  My son will be 3 in July, can spell 
    simple words and count.  I am a Chinese.  Where I am from,
    people start educate their kids at a very young age.  My sister
    lives in Asia.  Her daughter, now at 5, reads both Chinese and English 
    books, do additions, subtractions, and multiplications.  She is also 
    taking piano lessons.  If she is here, she could be advanced, but
    where she is, she is just a "normal" kid.  And my son will be 
    "below average" if we were in Asia.
    
    Wendy

    I am with .11--I think your child is above normal.  I don't mean to
    offend any of the earlier responses, but most were not referencing
    their children's abilities at the current time (except fro Wendy--whose
    child seems VERY bright!!) and instead were "remembering" their children's 
    abilities when they were this age so I think they may not be as accurate--
    maybe I am wrong and *all* these kids are super bright!!!.  
    
    But I have a 4 and a half yr. old boy who up until two months ago was
    in a pre-school with 10 other kids his age.  His teacher said he was
    "one of the brightest", ahead of most of the other kids in the class.
    With this in mind, let me compare him to the base noter's child:
    
    My son can count to 50, recognize and write numbers to 12 or so.  He
    knows the alphabet, can write and recognize all the letters, write and
    recognize the words Mom, Dad, Mark (his brother's name) and his own name, 
    can tell you what any word starts with by sounding it out (Da-dog
    starts with "D").  He can do simple math--like the cookie example the base 
    noter gave--but he can not read yet.   
    
    So, based on my experience and my son's abilities, I think the base
    noter's child is above average.
    
    FWIW,                           
    Sandy

    This is from .13 again--I re-read this note and I was wrong about most
    replies being from noters remembering their children's abilities---they 
    really must have bright kids!!

    Most kids are bright until their curiosity is squashed by life
    experiences, killed by inadequate stimulation, or bored out of
    them by school programs geared to the slowest person in class. . .
    
    --bonnie

    
    
    I grew up in Hong Kong and I started kindergarten at 4 and was
    doing multiplication by 5. So, I think most kids are capable of
    learning the stuff but they won't learn it if the parents or
    teachers don't expect them to. We, as a country, better change
    our attitudes/policies concerning education. We are already loosing
    business to the better educated Asians and Europeans. 
    I can appreciate the American emphasis on creativity and individuality,
    but those qualities are no good if the we don't know how to
    read or do math. It is really scary that in the next 10-15 years or
    so, our country will have shortages of engineers and scientists,
    according to some projections.
    
    
    Eva 

    
    
    
    My own opinion is that children are ready for different types of
    development at different times in their lives.  For those who start 
    to read early, or understand math concepts early, they may just be
    more mature developmentally in that particular area or in general.  
    I won't dispute that many of these children are very intelligent but 
    I also won't say those who pick up on these things later are any less 
    intelligent.  
    
    Re. 16:
    
    I agree that many children are capable or learning much earlier but
    believe that excessive stress is very undesireable.  A friend of 
    mine's daughter who is in a different state then MA. had to go to the 
    doctor's because of stomach ailments caused by stress.  (This child was 
    only in 1st or 2nd grade at the time. This is not the occassionaly 
    "Mommy, I have a tummy ache" syndrome where the kid wants to stay out 
    of school for a day.)  Japan evidently is similar to Hong Kong in 
    starting the education of its children earlier and fast and furious. It 
    also has a very high suicide rate among teenagers. Thank you, but no 
    thanks, I don't want that for my son.
    
    I'm sure many parents have seen the light bulb turn on for their
    children to a particular concept/skill.  That's the time for the
    parent and hopefully perceptive educator to expose that child to as 
    much as the child/student desires and can handle.  Having the proper 
    environment is important and seeing Mommy and Daddy using these skills 
    e.g. counting by twos, fives, reading out loud, etc., establishes an 
    environment where use of these skills is the norm.  This behavior and
    nonverbal expectation is then "programmed" into the child.    
    
    Some type of balance has to be established between the needs of the 
    child and the needs of the future economy.  The U.S. has been lacking
    particularly in the maths and sciences.  Some of this has to do with
    the fact that many teachers are not comfortable with these subjects.
    As a result, the teachers do not teach these well and the students
    who would normally devour these subjects are turned off.   
    
    

    True, some systems go overboard, but I think there's a balance
    between pressuring the child to learn something she's not ready
    for, or faster than she can handle, and setting up an environment
    that in many cases discourages both learning and creativity. 
    
    Most of the popular series of elementary education textbooks and
    so on are designed to bring an entire group along at a certain
    pace, and everyone's supposed to be doing the same thing. 
    Children who are already skilled in the concept often get the
    dubious reward of getting to fill out still more rote worksheets,
    and children who want to do things a different way are often cited
    as disruptive or graded down for not following directions.  
    
    As more and more kids are going into structured educational
    systems at an earlier age, it seems that this attitude is
    extending younger and younger, too, so that a child who happens to
    know something different than her peers, or to have learned it
    earlier, is seen as something of an anomaly.  
    
    I guess it's kind of the assembly-line mentality extending to an
    area that can't be dealt with in an assembly line.
    
    --bonnie

Bonnie:

I agree ... however, neither should a parent try to hold back a child who
is motivated and easily-challenged to learn because of peer pressure or
boredom in kindergarten and elementary school.

Many schools are now offering stages.  Both my nephew and niece were
accelerated into the highest stage for their grade (I think their school
system had three stages - eg. below average, average and above average).
John did super great until he hit Junior High and then he found the
accelerated learning to be very stressful.  I commend my sister for working
very closely with his instructors and recognizing this when it first started
showing and moving him back into the average stage.  Ruthie pretty much let
JOHN decide what he wanted to do and the instructor told John he could
accelerate back up again at any time.  As for Peg, I think she's still in
the accelerated class (not sure, though) ... I know she's a High-Honors student.

I know Peg was VERY gifted (and still is).  My sister commends Peg's instructors
for keeping her motivated and challenged via extra assignments, LOTS to do,
lots of praise and encouragement and both Peg/John are both involved in
school sports and Peg signs up for all the school plays, too.

So a lot has to do with the kid ... the parents ... AND the school system
(instructors!).  There IS a lot of opportunity out there and it's not just
restricted to the classroom either (sports, dances, school plays ...).

As for peer pressure ... for whatever reason, John/Peg survived it and still 
strive for Highest-Honors and seem to be quite popular, too.  They've 
never caved in to peer pressure -- and I'm sure they've BEEN UP AGAINST IT!

So I'm all for Juli accelerating at the speed she wants ... and hope we
have a good, strong school system -- when she gets there.

Dottie

    Dottie -- 
    
    I agree, there are some excellent schools, excellent teachers, and
    excellent parents.  And I agree strongly with your point that you
    have to find the match between a particular kid and a particular
    situation.  Not sure about the peer pressure part -- since it
    seems to be partly peer pressure making Kat work so hard to keep
    her grades near-perfect.  That can go either way.  
    
    My main point was that your average run-of-the-mill or even above
    average school system is so worried about trying to get the kids
    who don't have basic skills when they start first grade to catch
    up that they don't have time to worry about whether kids who are
    anxious to learn, like the basenoter's child, are learning
    everything.  
    
    --bonnie

Bonnie:

True!  I was amazed by the number of kids who can't count or recognize colors
and letters BEFORE they enter kindergarten! ... and yet further amazed
when I hear parents make comments that they DEPEND on kindergarten
instructors to TEACH their kids these bare-bone basics ... and now that the
school systems are trying to push the "entry date" out further -- "5 before
September 1st" ... we'll have kids learning their ABC's AT THE RIPE age of 6!

So ... it's one step forward and three back!  No wonder with every passing year
our kids' basic skills averages are DECLINING!  And these kids are the "leaders
of tomorrow"!

I only hope that Shrewsbury continues to maintain their high standard of
schooling ... so Juli won't be stepping back 3-4 years in RE-learning an
alphabet she's been fascinated with since 18 months of age!

What I've found is that the kids who start school with little IF ANY basics
have to struggle and struggle and struggle to keep up and "just pass" with
each advancing year.  They then reach a point when they can't "stay above
water" ... they feel like failures ... they are embarrassed and frustrated
... they give up ... they quit school (and then the excuse they use
is "I was bored..."!).  Are WE being fair to our kids?  

Kids are learning second languages in elementary school and Calculus in 
high school ... Some of the math John is learning in high school, 
I didn't "see" until college!  Please ... don't hold these kids back by
not teaching them basics at a young age.

I don't mind a teacher spending MORE time with kids who need the extra help,
as long as my child is given some extra assignments (or challenged some how)
to continue learning and not be held back by time and boredom.  Ultimately,
I would hope that my child is placed in a "stage" in sync with her level (and
ability) of development.

You're right, Bonnie ... in a "group" environment, some kids will win and
some kids will lose.

Dottie

PS:
I was talking to a young mother (neighbor) about our town trying to eliminate
EVERY Wednesday from our kindergarten schedule, extend KINDERGARTEN another
15 days and overlap the morning and afternoon sessions by an hour or so!
ANDDDD... this got approved 4-1 by the School Committee (DESPITE a lengthy
signed petition OPPOSING it!) ... and our neighbor said "well, that's OK
by me, I don't want my kids in school any longer than they already are ...".
Awwwggh!!

PSS:
My Mom told me I used to bawl my eyes out when the school year ended ... I
WANTED to be in school ...

    
    re. 17 I was talking to another Asian friend today about stressed-out-
    Japanese. I can bet my change that we'll never see this same kind 
    of pressure in this country. Teenage suicides in Japan are mainly
    caused by their high social expectation. In Japan, Success = honor 
    = self worth. Failure = shame = dishonor. Chinese don't believe in 
    this nor do any other Asians.
    
    
    
    I think at around age 4-5, kids are like sponges, they soak up
    knowledge like, it's amazing. That's the age when we want to
    keep them interested and give them motivation to learn. 
    
    I don't believe that parents should stress out their kids, I think
    that parents should set a reasonably high level of expectation. 
    Kids need challenge to grow. We can't just keep saying "According
    to so and so, kids shouldn't do this at this age, etc" We should give
    it a try, at least, if it takes, fine, if not, no big deal, try again
    6 months later. I don't see anything harm done by trying, provided we
    don't make the kids feel bad. It may actually teach the kids a lesson 
    - it is ok to fail.
    
    
    
    
    Eva
    
     

    
    
    Re 22:
    
    Eva,             
    
    It sounds like you and I are actually very much in agreement.  
    
    Let me tell you a few experiences with my son, Doug--the little 7 year
    old love of my life.
    
    	When Doug was about 12 or 18 months old, he was evaluated by his 
    	pediatrician's staff for development.  One thing which I was told
    	he was advanced for was his ability to take a bottle and tip it 
    	to get a ball out.  This I know was learned from his bath time.
    
    	At about 2 1/2 years while playing with his stacking blocks, I
    	was saying "10 take away 1 is 9; 9 take 1 is 8".  Then he started
    	giving me the answers as we went further.  I thought this was
    	pretty unusual. 
    
    	But at 5, he still did not want to hold a pencil or write despite
    	sticker incentives.  Neither did he want to read, although he 
    	was read to almost every day.  Last year, he started to draw and 
    	can't wait to finish his school work, to pick up one of his favorite 
    	pens and draw.  This year, his reading has picked up.  He is 
    	willing to read out loud to me where previously, he would not.  
    	
    	I know by his development, that individual readiness plays an 
    	important part.  I also believe that it is very much inherited.
    	He seems to parallel much of my development even though we tried
        to create an environment which would encourage early reading and
    	writing as well as math skills.  
    
    We both seem to be in agreement regards expectations. (I had to smile
    last weekend when we attended Doug's friend's first Communion.  When 
    the boy opened up a card which had a U.S. Savings Bond, and Doug said, 
    "That's probably going into his account for college!")  
    
    This coming weekend Doug will see his Dad graduate with his MBA.  
    Children should see their parents learning or being active in the 
    schools.  Not restricting kids by telling them "You can't..." is very 
    important too.  They need to believe in themselves as well as know 
    their parents believe in them.  
    
    But as you stated, we need to provide better and advance courses 
    through the entire school systems as do the Japanese and Europeans. 
    How can we expect them to build to their maximum potential and be 
    competitive in the future with other nations if once the foundation
    is poured, we don't give them the bricks? 
    
    
    					Darlene
    
    

Having had my children for several years in a rather draconian Swiss school
system (they are both now in the International school) I can only say that
my children learn because they are motivated and find it fun.  The Swiss (at
least in the canton of Vaud where I live) have a reputation for turning out
very competant but not particularly imaginative scholars.  They make a selection
at age 11 for who goes to University and who doesn't.  About 25% go into the
university bound section.

To answer the "reading at age 4" question.  To enter 1st grade, the children 
must be 6 years old on the 1st of July.  School starts in the middle of August.
By Christmas, the children are reading, albeit slowly.  All the first few
months of effort are put on reading.  The first two years of school concern
themselves with reading, arithmetic, and a bit of writing (more in the third
year).  There is very little else (science or whatever).  The pace is very,
very fast and, I found that for my children, it was at the expense of the 
natural fun a child has in discovering the world through words and numbers.

For my younger son, it seems it wasn't too late.  He has regained that pleasure
and takes pride in his ability to do math (he flunked 2nd grade before I
moved him to the international school).  For my older son, he is average and
will probably "manage" but I hope the spark can be re-lit through the efforts
of concerned and thoughtful teachers.

As Piaget has shown us, until your children are ready for the next concept, they
can't "learn" it.  Whether they're a few months earlier or later hardly matters.
The Swiss system that my children were in convinced me that the children would
make up for any late start.  In maths, they are generally a year ahead of their
Geneva counterparts by the age of 11.  The advantage is that if your system
is flexible enough to adapt to the child when he wants to learn, he'll have
more pleasure in doing so.

By the way, there is no magic in the European system of education.  If you want
to talk about systems which bring children along in a group, then the French
system which is highly centralised is probably the epitome of this where
practically every child in France is doing the same page at the same hour in the
same workbook.  It seems that I can find an example in Europe of all the things
the American system seems to do wrong.  The only difference I can see is that
the school year tends to be longer.  So, why do you think the Europeans are
more successful at educating their children?

Cheryl

    
    I think my version of ideal education is a mix of the
    American emphasis of creativity/imagination and the
    European/Asian emphasis of knowing the basics very, very
    well. I believe that in Asia and European, there are 
    standards which absolutely have to be met for advancement.
    
    re. 24
    
    In the US, some high school students can't even do simple 
    subtractions right. Some don't know how many meters there
    are in a kilometer. Some college students don't know that
    we have been fighting religious wars for "quadrillion" years.
    That's is scary. It seems like we have a whole of imaginative
    kids but the society needs more competent workers.
    
    
    Eva
    
    

Another thing to remember is that many kids have intellectual growth spurts, 
just like they have physical growth spurts.  


> The only difference I can see is that
> the school year tends to be longer.  So, why do you think the Europeans are
> more successful at educating their children?


Give me the European School year -- and the holiday/vacation schedules (at 
least in some countries).  Seems almost like the kids are in school more than 
there parents are at work.

Clay