Conference moira::parenting_v3

    I personally would not allow a child of that age to play unsupervised
    with other kids of the ages you described.  They are generally too
    rough, and don't understand yet the limits of a child of two. 
    Sometimes if it's an older brother or sister palying with the two year
    old they have been told often enough to be gentle that they will be. 
    Playing with sticks as swords etc. sounds pretty normal with kids of
    4,5, and 6.  But a two year old certainly can't keep up with that kind
    of rough play, and is bound to get hit or "wound up" with that
    aggressive nature of that kind of play.
    
    I have three sons - almost 5, 6, and 1 1/2.  I'd never let my youngest
    out to play with my oldest two alone.  They play too rough, and get the
    youngest, Josh, involved.  If I don't keep an eye on them, things can
    really get carried away.  Frankly, you need someone to supervise their
    play, or don't let him play at all with them at this point in time.
    

    I agree that the child is too young to play without supervision.
    I have many times hired a 'babysitter', even paid 10-years olds,
    to watch young kids when I am working around the house.  Kids are
    like animals.  The stronger will prevail and abuse the weaker.
    Finally, at about 5-6 years, we let them play in the yard without
    being watched.  That even got to be a problem, and some children
    who are older and very immature, are banned from our yard and house.
    They constantly abuse the younger children.  I got very tired of
    leaving my carpenter work on the house to break up fights and I
    got very tired of the screaming and crying.  I don't mind kids of
    equal weight and ability wrestling or playing rough, but if one
    does not want to, or is too small to hold his own, I stop it.
    There are also kids who will break anything they touch.  We keep
    them outside as well.  On another subject, I have hired older kids
    to house-sit.  I'll be working within a few hundred feet of the
    house, and they are instructed to lock the doors and keep all kids
    but my own outside.  We have even gone so far as to reach agreements
    with parents of problem kids, that if their children show up in our
    neighborhood, we will report their breaking-and-entering to the police
    and prosecute.   mwr
    

I see several issues here, all of which Jim/I have had to address both in
Juli's "previous" homecare environment and the neighborhood kids.

In Juli's previous homecare environment, the provider had a daughter 
just a few months older than Juli, HOWEVER, she weighed TWICE AS MUCH 
as Juli!  So if you let these "two" 1+ year-olds "work out" 
their indifferences (on NON-Juli turf), you just KNOW
who is going to win!  The provider's child was the third youngest of a
sibling grouping -- so you also have to understand that her environment
taught her all about the "pecking" order, as well as surviving, winning,
and how to fight - she's got two older mentors who both have lots of
experience to share (and teach) her.

Another issue is "whose turf", "whose toys", "whose Mommy" ... and this 
can definately be a power struggle for the "outsider" kid -- and best
controlled and monitored by the PROVIDER -- not the kids!

Jim/I agree that letting kids BATTLE out their indifferences does NOT
necessarily teach them to share and get along with other kids.  It does,
however, teach them some good fighting tactics -- and a "runt" like Juli
WILL resort to biting, kicking, scratching, etc. to "survive".  It makes
even the most easy-going, likeable kid agressive, angry AND VERY STUBBORN
AND DETERMINED to survive... not to mention how utterly difficult it is
to "de"-wind a kid after any length of "rough play".

Jim/I have taught Juli that she does NOT own her Mommy/Daddy, she does
not OWN her toys, she does not OWN her friends ... lesson 1! ... and
sharing brings about friendships, which brings about fun!  Our rule is
who's playing with it keeps it UNTIL it's put down ... then it's fair
game!  And all toys, swings, slide, etc. is FAIR GAME!  We don't favor
Juli ... whoever needs a push on the swing gets it (and not necessarily
"after" Juli gets her push) ... first come, first served.  If there's
not enough popsicles for everyone, than NO ONE gets one.  AND no rough
play!  If a kid steals a toy from another, the toy is returned immediately.
If a kid cannot play fair and non-aggressively, then ALL kids GO HOME!
(You say this is not fair, well ... it is totally amazing how the kids
WILL encourage and motivate the rough-houser to abide by the rules 
so THEY TOO don't get sent home!)

AND ... I don't let the kids play outdoors OR indoors UN-attended.  
Jim or I join the kids at all times (in the yard or in the rec room --
NOT "within hearing distance").  I don't care what the age of
the oldest kid is, kids will be kids and accidents DO happen.

That's just the Jensen's game rules -- if you can't play "nicely", just
take your bat and ball and GO ELSEWHERE!

Dottie

    I've got mixed feelings on this one based on experiences.  I notice
    when AJ has been with children a little older, like when he played at
    age 2 with the 4 or 5 year olds, he came home very much more
    aggressive, loud; even rude, and was quite hard to calm down.  
    
    Since last year we've been quite friendly with a family who have a girl who
    just turned 6 and a boy 10, and he absolutely idealizes the boy and
    tries to imitate all the "big boy" things he does, like riding a two
    wheel bike, playing with a bat and ball, or basetball and a big thing for 
    us was the realization that "big boys" don't have accidents but always get
    to the bathroom on time.  He also realized that big boys like his friend 
    wore big boy underwear.  I admit I've kind of "used" the boy as an example,
    telling AJ how Christopher goes right to bed when he's told, and sits up 
    straight at the table and cleans his plate, but I really didn't have to 
    point that out, AJ had already seen it.  It's been a real help that when 
    our two families go camping together they each know to look out for each 
    other, including not swimming without a "buddy", and not wandering off 
    without your buddy.
    
    AJ has been a couple situations of the caregiver having he own
    child(ren) and only one of them did I notice any favoritism.  Actually
    that was much worse than favoritism.  The woman who had him before his
    current preschool situation, was extremely fair and unless you knew
    which boy was hers, you'd swear only her baby daughter lived there.  I
    remember several situations where she gave her son "time outs" because
    he was trying to get special treatment or not sharing toys that were
    meant for everyone.
    
    Lyn
    

    Its me again - I was out sick yesterday and unable to clarify a point
    in my base note.  My son is not unattended during this play time -
    either my husband or I are with them (usually my husband).  Sorry I
    didn't make that clear.  That is why I wanted some pointers on
    redirecting the play to a less aggressive mode - we would be there to
    do it, but we don't know what to do.  Can you tell JM is our first?? 
    Perhaps the best thing is to not allow any play time at all with
    these kids.  I had to really get tough with them yesterday - I happened
    to look out the window and spied the four year old climbing on *top* of
    the neighbor's car and up the back ladder of our motorhome!  Needless
    to say, Mrs. B is not a popular lady in the neighborhood anymore! 
    Thank goodness JM was taking his nap and didn't see them and get any
    ideas....
    
    Cathy
    

Cathy:

Our neighborhood doesn't have a lot of kids, so we can't be too choosey about
playmates for Juli.  I wholeheartedly support (as you do) not letting her
play with kids who are DEFINATELY out-of-control and into some heavy-duty
mischievious behavior ... however, it is healthy AND GOOD for the kids 
to play with other neighborhood kids (younger and older).  The "older" kids
do tend to get into more trouble and often are less responsive, whereby 
the younger kids tend to "test the limits" and are usually a little more
responsive and cooperative -- and it's better if the kids are "around"
the age of your own child (or children), as they do share similar interests
(sandbox vs. bikes).

I would probably let Juli play with the kids, guide her into acceptable
play and behavior AND NOT allow any rough-play and bad-play against OUR
property or kid (but it's the responsibility of that boy's PARENTS and the
HOMEOWNER to stop him from climbing onto their home ... providing they're
aware of what's happening!).  I doubt the parent will do much to control
the boy's behavior -- in fact, it's very appararent to ME that he's what
he is because they DID NOT or COULD NOT control him "up to now" -- and most
homeowners would complain or get after any kid(s) climbing onto their home!
So I say the parents and homeowner needs to get after the kid, however, you
can forbid your child to play or associate with him, but I'd explain to
my child "why".

One boy's behavior shouldn't stop your child from playing with the other
kids ... it's hard to be selective (Sally can play on our swings, but
Sammy can not ...), but you can warn the bad kid of the guidelines and
tell him he will have to go home if he doesn't follow them ... and ENFORCE
it -- do send him home when he's abusive and doesn't follow the guidelines!

I guess I'd try to "control" the situation (especially since you/your
husband are always there during playtime) ... AND especially if they are
playing on YOUR property.  I know I prefer that Juli have her "friends"
play in OUR yard (goodness knows there are plenty of toys to go around!),
where I can watch her AND CONTROL the situation (kids!).  It's easy to
say "well, guys, you're getting a little too rough and wild, so it's best
if you go home NOW"  (and let your kid play, especially if it's not her/his 
fault that the other kids got out of control).  (Some parents would rather 
send their kids - the noise and confusion - to some one else's yard!, but I'd
rather be the one in control and aware of what's happening at all times!).

Just my two cents.  Good luck, Cathy.

Dottie

    
    
    
    I don't let my daughter play with kids whose parents I don't know
    or I cannot talk to comfortably.
    
    My daughter  plays with neighbourhood kids of different ages and
    genders some older, some younger and some the same age. If they play
    in my yard, they follow my rules. If my daughter plays at someone's
    house, she follows their rules. If other kids are doing things that
    I don't approve of, I'd say "That's not a good idea (like squirting the
    cats with water guns or picking the flowers); and this is why (the
    cats hates water or the flowers stay on the plant for everyone to
    enjoy); and maybe you can play with this other thing." If the kids
    don't listen, I'll talk to the parents. 
    
    
    Eva
    
    
    

Hello,

Note 1322 got me to thinking about my situation.  My son, Peter, 6, has a 
"sometimes friend" Dana, 7.  When his older cousins, pre-teen,  aren't around, 
he comes over to play with pete.  When he is playing with Pete, he'll check 
back home to see if the older kids are home, if they are, he takes off.  In 
other words, he's using Pete.

I am concerned about the types of "games" that they play.  Stuff like 
wrestling, cops & robbers, so on.  Dana is bigger and stronger and can 
easily overpower Pete.  Because Dana is the little guy with the older kids, 
I think it makes him feel good to overpower Pete.  Of course, Pete doesn't 
see this and feels Dana is one of his best friends.

They are tierd with board games, coloring, things like that (nice weather 
cannot come soon enough). Every suggestion I make is "boring".

I know I cannot choose his friends (as much as I would like to), but has 
anyone handled this before? Do I talk to Pete and clue him in, or do I mind 
my own business as long as no one gets hurt?  I don't want Pete to resent
the fact that I'm interfering (Meddling mother).  Do I talk to Dana?  He's a 
real street-wise kid.  As soon as he sees the car home, he'll come right 
over and even at times just walk in (I've spoken to him about this). 
Pete cannot wait to get home to play with him.  Altough, sometimes Pete 
has indicated that he is too rough.  

Linda

    IMHO, I would talk with Pete about how he feels toward Dana.  If he
    thinks he's getting what he needs from the friendship, then there isn't
    any need to interfere.  I don't interfere with my kids unless something
    is bothering one of them - my oldest has a friend who "tell him things
    that aren't true" not maliciously lying - but trying to be better than
    my son or smarter than he.  I have no problem telling Kyle that
    sometimes people say things to make you like them, or do things so
    you'll be their friend, but none of that matters if you like the person
    and want to be with them.  Tell him when you think he's pulling your
    leg and let him know he doesn't have to do that to be your friend. 
    Luckily, Kyle has started to branch out to other friends who are a
    little "purer" in their relationship.
    
    Pete is young enough that he probably won't be psycologically damaged
    by Dana, but at the same time Pete should feel good enough about
    himself to know that he doesn't have to be like Dana - just enjoy the
    relationship - as it seems he does.
    
    -sandy