Conference moira::parenting_v3

    
    You might also check note 177 in PARENTING_V2.    
    
    Sorry to hear abut your father,
    Carol

    There is childrens book by Leo Busgalia called Freddie The Leaf.  It
    explains about death in a way that a child can understand.  You may
    check you local library to see if they have it available.  I know my
    borther used it with his kids and they seemed to understand.  They are
    7,6,4 years of age.
    
    Maybe that would help.  Sorry to hear about your dad.
    
    Kathy

    First of all, very sorry to hear about your dad.  I can most deeply
    understand your concern for your son, but hope you are also taking
    care of helping yourself deal with this !!!
    
    Some advice from two sides - one of being the child - while I was
    growing up, I knew my mother was ill, but although we "knew" about
    it, it was "taboo" to talk about it.  ADVICE : if/when you do tell
    your son, LET HIM ASK QUESTIONS, let him talk it out as much as
    he needs to talk it out.  Different kids handle it differently and
    ask different questions, but if you're open to listening to the
    question and only giving as much info as was asked for, it makes
    it much easier to deal with.
    
    from a parent's side - just short of two years ago, my dad (my son's
    ONLY grandparent) had to have coronary bypass surgery (quadruple)
    - because of complications, it was touchy for a while, but he DID
    recover, even went back to work, back to playing golf, back to working
    in the yard.....All through the surgery and recovery, though, I
    did talk about what was happening with my son, why he couldn't go
    to see his "Poppi", why I was spending so much time at the hospital.
    Less than a year after surgery, I spent another long night at the
    hospital with my day, without being able to talk with my son about
    what was happening......the next morning when he got up, I had to
    tell my son that his "Poppi" was dead and it was THE HARDEST thing
    I have ever had to do in my life !!!  From my son's side, there
    was a lot of confusion about WHY since dad had been doing so well
    and I just tried to answer his questions as directly and simply
    as I could.  Again, same ADVICE : if I had known and been able to
    prepare my son for this, I would have !!!!!!!
    
    Don't know how much family support, etc., you have, but if you need
    someone to talk to who's been through a similar situation, please
    feel free to contact me.
    
    best of luck in a tough situation,
    Debbi Jancaitis
    DTN 229-7824
    

    I'm very sorry about your father.  I think for all of you that
    it's very important to bring it out in the open as a subject for
    talk, rather than trying to be stoic or pretend it will go away.  
    I've recently realized that some difficult times in my family
    during my adolescence were because a whole series of relatives
    died in a very short period of time, and we were all locked in our
    cages of grief, each of us thinking we were the only one feeling
    that way.  It would have been a lot easier if we could have talked
    about it with each other.  The facts were out in the open, but not
    our feelings.  I guess we all assumed that grief is grief and so
    there was no need to talk, but grief is highly personal, and
    there's also the anger at being abandoned or deserted, the fear of
    one's own death, the personal relationships we didn't have any
    more, the family roles that weren't being filled.  If even one of
    us could have said, "All right, who's going to be Santa and eat
    the milk and cookies this year now that Grandpa's not here to do
    it?" it would have been a lot easier for all of us.  
    
    --bonnie

    Sorry to hear about your father.  I've just come thru this experience
    and can say my kids have dealt with it alot better than I have.  My
    father was diagnosed with inoperable cancer of the throat about
    three years ago.  I also lost my mother to breast cancer 10 years ago. 
    Dad was the only Grandparent that my children knew, so telling them was
    very important.  I told them as soon as I was told.  At the time they
    were only 5 and 7.  I just told them that Grandpa was very sick, was
    going to be getting Chemo therapy, and that he might die but we didn't
    really know for sure.  This was much better, I think, than telling them
    flat out that he was going to die.  They were kept up to date on all of
    the details of his health throughout the entire three years.  When he
    did pass on last november, we all knew it was a blessing even the kids. 
    They still have lots of questions which I answer as honestly as
    possible.  I think it has helped by being so open about everything and
    I think they have a realistic view of life and death as a result of all
    of this.  Their Grandfather's words of wisdom, stories, wisecracks, and
    just everything he did or said seemed to be much more important.  And
    now they remember so many details, Its just so amazing... Kids are
    amazing...
    
    regards,
    
    Lynne C.
    
      

    I'm sorry too. My Dad just died suddenly last month. He had been
    away on a business trip in Germany for 3 weeks and died on the
    plane on his way home. I have 3 kids (14,4,and 2). The kids are
    not dealing with it because the little ones don't know the difference
    between and business trip and death. They do know that we spend
    alot more time with my mother now but they enjoy that. I live close
    to my parents and the kids saw them often. I think if we had time
    to explain to them that Grandpa was sick and get them prepared it
    would have been easier. When you're in shock it is too late to think
    of the kids.
    I wish I had the time to read some books and get the kids ready. I
    wish you alot of luck and hope that you can use the time to get
    yourself and the kids ready for what lies ahead. I think that you
    are better off getting involved than sheltering them. My 14 year old
    did a reading at the funeral and it meant alot to her and the family.
    
    Vickie
    

    Although I feel AJ is too young at 4 to fully understand death, he does
    understand the concept that death is serious, and somehow he
    understands that serious injury can cause death, in the context that if
    he does something without thinking he could be hurt enough to die. 
    Those are his words, not mine.  He's also begun recently asking a
    question of "who got dead in the ambulance?" when he sees an ambulance
    rushing somewhere.  I've tried to squelch that by telling him that dead
    people don't go in ambulances, but people who are hurt of sick and are
    being taken to the hospital with the hope of being made better.
    
    From personal observation, my mother died a few years ago when my
    sister's daughter was 5 or6 of cancer.  To this day I greatly disagree
    with the way she handled it.  She lives out of state, and from the
    beginning to the end, it was about 5 months total, she took a leave of
    absence from work, packed up the child and moved to aunt's house near
    the hospital.  The part that bothers me is that she and her daughter
    were at the hospital almost 24 hours a day, and anyone who's seen
    someone near death of cancer knows it's a horrible site.  I feel my
    niece should have not have had to witness this.  Not to mention the
    frequent nights of having her sleep on a couch in the lounge while my
    sister, my aunts and myself kept a bedside vigil.  
    
    I agree with being honest, but I don't agree with the way my sister
    handled it with her daughter.  I can't help but think my niece will be
    somehow traumatized from this experience.  I'd appreciate suggestions,
    since I'm still having trouble with her handling.  My sister also had
    her daughter with her through 2 days of calling hours, a funeral at the
    home and the graveside services a half hour south of the funeral home.
    
    My sister and I are not close, we started falling apart after my
    father's death, exactly a year to the day before her daughter was born.
    We don't speak at all at this point, I've tried to make contact with
    her, with cards, letters and pictures but she chooses to ignore it.
    During my mother's illness we put up with each other and attempted to
    remain civil but that's about as far as it got.
    
    Lyn
    

    Sorry to hear about your dad.  I've never had this experience as an
    adult, but as a child, my grandmother died when I was about 9.  The
    whole thing was very hush hush and no one talked about it or explained
    anything, and no one had ever discussed the permancy of death, so we
    didn't really understand.  About a year later I started thinking about
    my grandma in school, and then it occurred to me that she was gone
    *forever* and I had never been allowed to say goodby or even understand
    that there wouldn't be any more 'tomorrows'.  
    From that experience, I think it's VERY important that you at least
    explain what's going on, and at least a month or two ahead of time, if
    possible.  
    A previous noter suggested the book "Freddie the Leaf".  I don't know
    where you live, but the Nashua Public Library also has this on video
    tape.  We've rented it a few times, and I think it's wonderful.  It's
    about a leaf (named Freddie) and it shows him as he lives through the
    seasons and watches the people in the park and starts to change color
    etc.  It discusses his fear of dying as well as how much he'll miss the
    people in the park, and other emotions of it.  It portrays death as not
    scarey or uncomfortable.  In the end, Freddie accepts his destiny, and
    falls from the tree, and you're left with sort of a warm feeling about
    Freddie, and FOR Freddie.  I think it's a great movie (never knew there
    was a book), and my children have seen it several times and enjoy it. 
    I think the first time they saw it was ~4 years old, and occassionally
    they'll ask to borrow it again.  I think it's a great vehicle to bring
    up any questions or fears that may be lurking in the child's mind.
    
    My suggestion would be to a)Not say anything just YET, b)get the movie
    or a book that discusses death and review it with your child.  I would
    discuss death overall, before he knows about Grandpa, and then later
    tell him.  My thinking is that this way, he may be able to get a handle
    on it and understand it a little easier without the major emotional
    impact when you tell him about your dad.  He also may be more open to
    ask questions, raise fears and/or concerns before he realizes that it's
    something that he'll need to deal with 'now'.
    
    Good Luck - our thoughts are with you!
    Patty

    I want to thank everyone for there thoughts and advice.  I went
    out and got a copy of 'Freddie the Leaf' at lunch today and will
    read it tonight.  I want to read it first and make sure I'm prepared
    to discuss it with Sam when I read it to him.  One of my biggest
    fears is that I'll get upset, and in turn will make him more upset
    than he might otherwise be - unfortunately I'm one of those people
    that cries at phone commercials!
    
    Once again thanks for all the help,
    
    Kathy
    

    
    
    Re: .9
    
    Kathy,
    
    You need to take care of yourself.  You will cry, you will get
    upset...this is your >father< you're talking about.  You're going to
    have to deal with your own grief, as well as Sam's.  Yes, he will get
    upset when he sees you cry...but you can explain to him that its ok to
    cry, that you are very sad, and need to cry, just like he cries whren
    he's sad, that he's still safe, etc.  He will see you cry alot,
    probably, as you and your family go through this.
    
    A good book that I used with my daughter was "Badger's Parting Gifts". 
    It tells the story of Badger (from the Wind in the Willows) getting
    ready to "go down the long tunnel"...it talks about his friends
    grieving, and their journey through grief to the other side, where they
    remember all the wonderful things about him, and take comfort in how he
    enriched their lives.
    
    Its a good book that focuses on grief, as opposed to death.
    
    But please, take care of yourself.  Losing a parent is hard; harder for
    you as you still have to be a parent, even while you're mourning.  
    
    
    Susan
    

    First, if you're located in MA the library at Memorial Hospital has
    several books on telling kids about death and dying.  You also might
    contact the people in social services who sponsor the Grief and Loss
    support group.  Although this group is geared more towards adults who
    have lost a newborn or had a late miscarriage, I remember they had
    quite an extensive selection of books that helped you to explain death
    and dying to a young child.
    
    Secondly, arn't there a couple books and videos out there dealing with
    death for kids, by people familiar to them?  I'm thinking there is a
    book by Dr. Seuss and a book and/or video by Sesamie St. and Mr.
    Rogers.  Perhaps if someone familiar to the child approaches the
    subject it might be a little easier for your child to handle, and at
    the same time take a little burden off of you to explain what's going
    on.
    
    God bless you
    Lyn

    re: .7
    
    Lyn,
    
    I don't think you need to worry overly much about your neice
    simply for having gone through those experiences. I'm sure she was
    saddened and upset, but I doubt that it damaged her. 
    
    I was the same age as your neice when my grandmother died.  I
    attended all the funeral services, including the graveside, and
    got to be in charge of the guest register for the calling hours. 
    I didn't find it at all traumatic -- I felt good that I could do
    something to help make it easier for my mother, rather than being
    excluded and left to wonder. 
    
    My grandfather lived in our home while he was dying of cancer, and
    though my brother and I were somewhat older than your neice, I
    wouldn't say it traumatized us.  I'd have been more upset at being
    separated from my mother for 5 months, which was probably the
    choice.  
    
    It changed us, yes.  It was a difficult and painful experience and
    you are right, there is nothing pleasant about watching someone
    die of cancer.  Worse when it's a loved one.  Upsetting, yes, and
    difficult.  But at the same time I don't think it was a bad
    experience.  It changed the way I looked at the world.  It's very
    difficult to be squeamish about a baby's dirty diaper when you've
    helped change an adult's, and when you've seen death standing in
    the corner of the bedroom waiting, it's hard to be too concerned
    about getting ahead and making more money.  I know what's more
    important. 
    
    And I understand that good health and the ability to do the things
    I'm doing are a blessing.  They're a gift to be treasured, not a
    right, and they could end or be restricted at any time.  So be it. 
    And meanwhile let me have mercy on others who are suffering,
    because I know what it feels like.
    
    --bonnie

    re .9
    
    One of the biggest things since my dad has died was that I often
    DO still find/see/hear things that make me cry....Matt and I have
    talked about this often and he "helps" me through it.
    
    basically, agreeing with another noter, you need to be honest with
    your own emotions and not try to hold them back for fear of upsetting
    Sam, but rather explain why you feel the way you do....missing your
    dad and missing what your son "could have had".....
    
    when I get into a crying spell, Matt used to try to get me to stop
    because he didn't like to see me so upset....since we've talked
    about it, thought, he understands that it's ok to be upset, it's
    ok to cry and will usually now ask me why I'm crying rather than
    trying to get me to stop.....
    
    BTW, you'll find (IMHO) that your son, at times, will take it far
    more calmly than you will and then suddenly, out of the blue something
    will "hit" him.....if you've been free enough to express your emotions
    when things bother you, it will be easier for him to do the same....
    
   good luck
    

    I'd like to second --bonnie's remarks, in .12
    
    through out 99.995% of human history, the kind of experience
    that was described was *normal* for all human beings. It would
    have been unusual for any person to have reach adulthood without
    having seen not one, but several people suffer through a terminal
    illness and die.
    
    We humans are capable of a lot more than we let our selves think.
    
    Bonnie