Conference moira::parenting_v3

    
    Is it due to daylight savings time?   (i.e. 8:00 still feels like
    7:00 and he's not ready for bed?)
    
    Carol

     We don't think so. It started a few days before that. Plus we have
    tried keeping him up until 9:00(which would be 8:00). And the same
    thing happens.
    
    Lynne

    
    
    Oh well, it was a guess!    We have also had a problem with crying 
    at bedtime for the past week; don't know the cause and some nights
    are worse then others.   What we do, and it probably isn't the "right" 
    thing, is go back into Jason's room when it doesn't seem  that he will 
    fall asleep on his own, pick him up and give him more hugs *quickly*, 
    and then lie him back down.  We'll sit in a chair next to the crib for 
    as long as he seems to need it; sometimes until he falls asleep (10 
    min max), sometimes just for a minute.   I have a "rule" that once it 
    is bedtime, he can not leave the room; so I personally wouldn't go for 
    more drinks, etc.
    
    Good luck,
    Carol  

    Get the Ferber book, it'll help here, too.
    
    What's going on is that you are training him to believe that
    you will always take him downstairs for more entertainment
    if he asks--so of course he does ask.
    
    We had the same problem--we'd give in once or twice and our
    son took it as a permanent feature.
    
    You have to make your "good-night" stick a little bit more:
    Ferber recommends that any post-bedtime visits be short and
    boring (hug, tuck in, but don't turn on lights or say anything).
    That way you send the message "If you really need me, I will 
    come in, but you are in bed to sleep and won't get out until
    morning".
    			-John Bishop

    I also sit in my son's room in the rocker with all the lights off
    except for his night light which goes off when he falls asleep, which
    is usually within 10-15 minutes after lying him in his crib.
    
    Have you also thought that your son maybe cutting his 2 year molars and
    also eye teeth if he hasn't already sometimes if Alexander is cutting
    teeth he will cry when I put him to bed.
    
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    Liz

    Be careful, you're already forming a habit with him!  I'd reiterate
    what others have said.  Put him to bed, say nite, nite or whatever your
    ritual is.  If he cries persistently and there is nothing wrong (no
    fever,sickness etc) go in with lights off, give him a quick hug and say
    something to the effect of "No more crying, it's nite, nite time, go to
    sleep." And put him back down, tuck him in and leave. Start now.
    
    He may cry a bit.  But you're forming habits, good ones, this way, by
    taking the time to let him know what bedtime means etc.
    
    
    

     Eric does'nt even have all of his 1st year molars yet..... We keep
    checking for them...
    
    Lynne

    I agree with .4  He is training to to follow his bedtime desires.
    
    Be firm at bedtime.  He will test you.  You must decide who is going to
    win this battle.  
    
    Once he is in his crib DO NOT pick him up.  Hug him while he is in his]
    crib, rub his back - bit DON'T pick him up.  Don't do anything that's
    fun.  Spend a SMALL amount of time with him and then leave.  Do this as
    often as you have to.  But don't give in.  He has to learn to settle
    himself down.  
    
    This sort of thing happens on and off - and you just have to hang
    tough.
    
    You can pay big $$$ at a sleep disorder clinic to hear the same thing. 
    I know people who have.  They didn't want to be TOO firm at bedtime
    because they didn't want their child to become too upset.  But this
    type of behavior often escalates.  They became desparate and went to
    the clinic.  They spent a half a day and $400 to learn the above.
    I read about handling bedtime in the book the 1st 12 months of life -
    and then in the 2nd 12 months of life --- etc, etc.
    
    

    Do a dir/title=sleep, and you'll find _tons_ of stuff about sleep
    problems!  

    I had similar problems with my son Jeremy when he was 20-22 months and
    he already had his molars (they came in (with added discomfort) around 18 
    months).....I tried all kinds of things....even getting in his bed with
    him to read a book.....what worked in the end was when I started
    playing a lullaby tape at bedtime....the tape recorder automatically
    turns itself off so I don't have to worry about that!! Now he is 24
    months and we have collected 3 different lullaby tapes and he picks out
    the one he wants to hear at bedtime...and he gets into bed himself and
    snuggles down with his blanket at teddy bear and pillow and waits for
    me to turn the pate on and kiss him goodnight....
    
    when i was trying all the other options we also got into the habit of
    telling him 30 minutes before bedtime that bedtime was in 30 minutes
    and at that time we pick up, together, whatever toys he has been
    playing with....brush his teeth and read 1-2 stories....so we have
    gotten into quite a ritual...which may not be altogether good...because
    when I was not there to do the *routine* with him and his sister tried
    to put him to bed....she had trouble...and I had forgotten to tell her
    the whole *routine*...as a result...he didn't go to bed until 10 pm
    whcih is way past his bedtime!!!
    
    Hope this helps...
    
    ellie 

    I second the Ferber suggestion.  It worked wonders with us when my
    daughter was around 22 months.  The important thing that Ferber
    suggests is to leave while the child is awake.  Do not put him to
    sleep because when he/she has a waking period during the nite he/she
    will expect you to be there i.e., rocking them.  They need to learn to
    fall asleep on their own.  
    
    My daughter did real well for about a year, but now she's giving us a
    real hard time at bedtime and it's real difficult when they are no
    longer in a crib.
    
    Again, read Ferbers book.  It's important that you read everything up
    to the section that tells you what to do.  It really gives you an
    understanding what's happening and why it's important to get it
    controlled.
    
    Good luck!
    

    My son is 26 months and I've been having a bit of a difficultly getting
    him to settle to bed this past week.  I've finally figured the problem
    to be; he is way over tired from so much play outside.  The kids at
    the home daycare are outside almost the whole day on nice days, as
    opposed to being inside during the winter.  I believe that his little
    body is just not used to such hard play.  It will take a little time
    for him to adjust.  Meantime, I am firm when bed time comes, once in
    bed he stays in bed.  If he is real weepy and unsettled I will hold him
    for a little while, tell him its ok, and put him back into bed.  And,
    it works fine for me.
    
    Chris
      

I personally have a problem with the idea of putting a child to bed with a 
lullaby tape.  This seems too much like having a mechanical device put them
to sleep instead of a parent -- I'd prefer that the singing come from a real
live person.  Thus, Elspeth's ritual (still inviolate at age 9) is reading
from our bedtime book, turn out the light, four lullabies, and hugs (in a
fixed and elaborate sequence).

But this is clearly a personal prejudice, and I can't fault anyone who
doesn't share it.  (And when we're travelling in the car at bedtime,
Elspeth usually goes to sleep to "Wee Sing ... Lullabies" instead of
having us sing to her -- don't ask me why.)

	-Neil

    We usually are quite firm about bedtime, and once in bed, they STAY in
    bed (unless, of course, they're on fire or something (-: (-:).  *BUT* I
    do recall when Jason was about that age that we ran into the same
    problem.  We reacted quite differently than we did with Christopher,
    and differently than the noters here seem to have ... this is mostly
    because Jason is *SUCH* a stubborn child and no amount of 'letting him
    cry' is going to help anyone any, and certainly won't get him to sleep.  
    
    What we ended up doing that _worked_ (cuz we'd tried lots of other
    things that didn't work), was getting him up, plop him on the sofa and
    let him watch T.V. and NOT SAY A WORD with us.  Soon enough he'd be
    asking to go to bed.  He was up, but it was pretty boring for him to be
    up.  I honestly believe that he felt like he was missing out on
    something and once he realized that there wasn't much of anything going
    on, he 'cured himself' of his sleeplessness.  I think it took about 3-4
    days before he gave up, with an occassional reversion for the next few
    weeks.  
    
    I believe the key to what worked for us, was that we didn't pay
    attention to him when we got him up.  "Okay, you can be up, but you're
    going to sit on the couch and watch T.V. and not bug us, because this
    is OUR time and you should've been in bed a while ago!"  If we had
    started singing/talking/playing with him or let him do any of the
    previous, we'd have been DOOMED!!  On particularly restless nights,
    we'd shut the T.V. off, so he'd just sit in the quiet, get bored, and
    decide that he'd rather be in bed w/ his stuffed animals and pillow.
    
    We hardly *EVER* have a problem now.
    
    Good Luck!!
    Patty 

    Matt at 3 years 8 mos old has starting giving me a really had time at
    bedtime.  His bedtime is 7:30 to 8 PM. What time do others feel is 
    appropriate for a 3 year old?  Anyway... not only does Matt have all
    the routine stalling techniques ranging from water, to going to the
    bathroom for the 3rd time but when I insist that YES by 8 PM he WILL
    be at least in his room for the night I am getting increased
    resistance.  Screeming/crying, occasionally kicking things.  I have
    told him the rules, set the limits and maintained consequences for
    continued crying kicking etc such as locking him in his room to insure
    he stays there during the bout of temper.  Once last week it degerated
    to a spanking by me (which my wife employs but I rarely do) (please
    no lectures on spanking I know the arguments). Anyway, for me to spank
    is my point of despiration and in the context of MY using it implies
    some sort of failure I think. 
    
    Anyway, any ideas of whether I should try and reason with this non
    reasonable (unless it suits him) 3 year old or just stick to the rules
    and let him beat on the floor with his feet and kick the furniture
    around?  Escallation, (the spanking) simply results in a more upset 
    child and father.  
    
    Please... help.... is this normal for 3 year olds?  Am I 'just' being
    tested and should just hang in there... or is there a real problem
    developing here which needs to be nipped in the bud?  I know its hard
    to hip shoot via. notes but can anyone give me some ideas as to how to
    actually get him to bed... on time... while I still have my sanity and
    self respect.
    
    Tx.  Jeff

    Are you just being tested?  Possibly.  But while he needs to know
    there are limits, don't get so caught up in a power struggle that
    lose sight of the main goal, which is to make sure Matt's getting
    enough sleep to be happy and healthy. 
    
    Does he go right to sleep when you finally do get him to bed?  If
    not, and if he still wakes up at his normal time in the morning,
    he probably doesn't need as much sleep as he's been getting.  Is
    he still taking naps?  How long are they?  He might be ready to
    give them up, or to have them shortened.  
    
    Steven had given up naps by this age, and wasn't all that anxious
    to go to bed -- he needs less sleep a night than I do!  We wound
    up using a variety of tactics: no naps during the day, letting him
    read or play quietly in his room for a few minutes (now half an
    hour) before bedtime, getting him up a little earlier in the
    morning so he was tired a little earlier at night.  We also let
    him control the order in which things were done, so story time
    came before toothbrushing instead of after.
    
    --bonnie

re: .15

No suggestions, just an observation and a comment.  I think that "going to 
bed issues" tend to get exxagerated at this time of the year.  It's damn 
tough for a kid to be convinced that it's time to go to bed when it's still 
light enough to play outside.  When our kids were Matt's age, we always had 
problems this time of the year.

Clay

    Has this just come up "out of the blue",  or are there other
    changes/factors going on right now? As Clay suggested, daylight savings
    times could make it more difficult. Perhaps suggesting that he can read
    in bed, or play quietly until he's tired might help. Bonnie's
    suggestion of giving him some choice in the order of things that get
    done before bed might make him feel a little more in control too. Most
    of all, for us, what helps is to give Ryan advance notice that bedtime
    is coming - 10 min. and then 5 minute "warnings". It eases the
    transition.
    
    best of luck,
    

    Yes... the light has made it much worse.... he says 'its still light
    out, its not bedtime', rational explanations of course go in one ear
    and out the other because he doesn't want it to be bedtime whether its
    light out or not.  Whether he is getting enough sleep or not isn't a 
    problem because he is free to sleep as late as he wants in the AM 
    because my wife doesn't leave for work till noon. He doens't get PM
    naps but I would say his natural sleep bedtime (since he can sleep
    late) is about 10 PM  which, since I get up at 6 is MY bedtime. 
    
    The issue for me (not for him) is whether there is ANY time at the end
    of the day when I can get the things done which need to be done without
    three year old interruptions.... such as work on my part time side 
    business.  He is perfectly capable of staying up to till 10 or so with
    no ill effects whatsoever.  So the issue is really my break time in the
    evening (remember my wife is at work so I am at this alone)..... there-
    fore the 8 PM deadline on his bedtime becomes necessary to my recovery
    from the stresses of the day.... of which (as much as I love him) he 
    still represents one of those stresses. 
    
    Maybe I should hire a sitter a night or two a week to just plain take
    care of him at my house and put him to bed for me thus freeing me and
    my 'sanity' up for those nights. 
    
    Is the way he is acting normal for a three year old?  This is our
    first.
    
    Jeff
    
    

    My opinion -- First, this is PERFECTLY normal for a child this age. I
    think 7:30 to 8 is an early bedtime for a 3 year old.
    
    Second, I very well sympathize with you in wanting some free time for
    yourself in the evening and feeling very frustrated by not being able
    to get him to bed.  Try to be patient.
    
    Some months ago I wrote a note on sleep and bedtime problems with my
    two sons who would not go to bed on time.  It started when the younger
    was about three.  I must have put them to bed 5 or 6 times a night.  I
    don't have any good news to report to you, they are still up and out of
    bed 5 or 6 times a night, and they're 6 and 5 now.  I think I've just
    gotten used to it.  It really wears me down, and I'd love some time to
    myself in the evening.  But it's not to be right now.
    
    The only thing I could suggest would have your wife get him up by a
    certain time every morning, and don't let him sleep late.  Have him nap
    in the early afternoon, and awaken him no later than 2 or 2:30.  And
    move his bedtime to 8:30 to 9.  My kids go to bed at 9, for what it's
    worth. (Ages 6,6,5,1.5).
    
    My problem is that the kids are in daycare during the week, and naps
    are required by law.  So they nap between 12:30 and 3 every day.  That
    accounts for the rough bedtime routine, they just aren't sleepy till
    10pm.  On weekends whn I allow them no naps, bedtime goes much more
    smoothly, many times they're asleep minutes after I put them to bed.
    
    You might also try letting him play in his room with a night light,
    using a radio on low, etc to let him ease down after the day, but tell
    him he MUST stay in his room.  Luck!
    

    Jeff, 
    
    It sounds like Matt is a natural "night owl" person.  It might be
    easier to just go with it and, as you suggested, get a sitter for
    a couple of nights a week so you can get things done. 
    
    As long as he can get up whenever he wants in the morning, he's
    not going to be willing to go to bed at night, especially since he
    no doubt wants to spend some time with you.  Getting him up at a
    fixed time about an hour earlier than what he's getting up now
    will make bedtime seem a lot more attractive, and incidentally
    make the transition to school a lot easier later on.  Also, the
    routine of getting up in the morning will make the routine of
    going to bed at night seem more natural.
    
    If you don't already do it, spending half an hour or so with him
    giving him 100 per cent of your attention before it's time to get
    ready for bed will often make a child more willing to part with
    the parent's company.
    
    Has his mother been working for long?  Is you putting him to bed a
    change of routine? If it's a new thing, he may be anxious about
    the change and worried about his mother. 
    
    --bonnie

    Gee, did you write that note or did I?  It sure sounds like MY son
    you're talking about.  Anyway, seriously, I mentioned this to the chld
    psycologist when we had him evaluated for a possible hyperactivity. 
    Her reply is that he's only acting his age, it's normal and he's NOT
    hyperactive.  He suggestions ran from quiet time, sitting reading a
    book or non stimulating TV, to a backrub once he's in bed to an extreme
    suggestion of locking his door.  We don't and won't do this, I feel
    this will traumatize him too much, and once I held his door shut and he
    became hysterical, never again.  Once we discovered the night light
    gave him enough light to get out of bed and play, we made it clear that
    if he's going to do that we'll have to take away the night light.  That
    promotes the same reaction as holding the door.  His latest "thing" is
    he insists his door be left wide open, no problem except his room is on
    a small hallway near the kitchen, phone, and livingroom, and right
    accross from his dad's study, with the terminal.  So the latest rule to
    come about We've also "struck a deal" that if you need the door open,
    then the night light will be shut off, he will compromise and shut the
    door and go to sleep fairly quickly. 
    
    We try to adhere to a 7:30 bedtime, it's usually after 8:00 before he's
    actually asleep though and sometimes later, lately.  We hear all the
    excuses,  a drink, got to go potty, I got to give you a hug and so on,
    we just stand on this firmly and insist he do whatever he got up to do
    and go right back into bed, he is NOT allowed into the livingroom after
    he's been tucked in the first time.
    
    Good luck, and hang tough!
    Lyn
    

One of my books said that the problem can be taking a child from a very "social"
environment with noise and bustle and warmth and shutting them off from the
family.  It suggested that you should make the withdrawal in stages.  First
give forewarning that bedtime is coming.  Then, 5 minutes before get the child
to help with picking up and putting away things.  Accompany the child to bed,
leave the light on and the door open for awhile so that he can hear the normal
sounds and not feel shut off from them.  Let him play another five or ten
minutes in bed, then turn off the light with the door still open.  You can
accompany this with a gradual reduction of the noise in the rest of the house.
Be firm about the child staying in bed.

This worked for me with a few "bumps" from time to time (minor crises, the
kids being worried about something, my husband or me losing our temper).  Our
two boys went to bed at 8:00 until they were about 5-6, then at 8:30 until
recently when we extended their bedtime to 9:00 (but that means lights off,
sleeping).  They are now 10 and 1/2 and 13.  I find that with my older boy
going through puberty, he needs the extra sleep.

Cheryl

    Thanks for all the hints. Last night was a dream.. we went out for the
    evening and got home a bit late... 9 PM.  On the way home he fell
    asleep in the car seat.. AH HA so the kid IS tired by 8:30 PM or so!
    I picked him up out of the car seat (he was still asleep) undressed
    him and put him to bed (still asleep).... silence.... bliss!!
    
    BUT he was up at 5:30 am bouncing around.... and was still at it when
    I left for work at 7... so its a trade off.... late to bed = early to
    rise.... early to bed = late to rise.... or so it seems.  
    
    He does not get a nap at daycare... (thank God).  Its a private home
    so not required by law in N.H.?
    
    I agree that the stages part is a good idea.  Usually I can manage it
    that way and it works FAIRLY well but hardly foolproof.  
    
    When I did lock him in his room which 'was the deal' he got
    'hysterical'... so I was being trained not to do THAT again.
    
    The 'deal' works like this:  You want to keep your light on? Yes. Ok, 
    then when I finish your story and go downstairs then the deal is that
    you keep your door closed and you don't come out except to go to the
    bathroom or for an emergency (emergency in his eyes is rather loosely 
    defined as you can imagine).  If you DO come out (read downstairs)
    or call me back up stairs for a minior (in MY opinion) reason then
    I will come back up but your light goes OUT for the night.  This
    approach works really well... the getting locked in his room with the
    light out too has only occured a couple of times when he pushed and
    pushed on the limits. 
    
    Now I have a new scenerio... he gets scared... lately its of fires.
    "Do we have bad wires in our house?!" NO Matt, Daddy checks them
    carefully and they are ok... and if there was a fire getting you out
    safely would be the FIRST thing we would do!   So its tough to call
    stalling vs. his fear and define appropriate stalling (fear) from just
    stalling.  Anyway, I hope he outgrows this fire fear thing soon.
    (He saw a kids show on tv with a fire in a kids closet) THAT really set
    off the fire fears.  "No more TV EVER!, RIGHT!!!!"
    
    Jeff

    Jeff, 
    
    I recognize the fear of fires.  Steven first started at about 3,
    when he thought "firemen" went out and "fired" things to make them
    burn.  It was pretty bad for over a year, then settled down to
    only periodic panics.  But he's 7 now and it still comes back
    sometimes.  Like mornings leaving for school when he insists on
    taking his travel bag of toys with him in the car so they won't
    get burned if the house catches fire while we're gone.  
    
    Most of the time a bout of fire anxiety reflects an anxiety
    elsewhere in his life that he can't cope with, or often even
    identify.  We find that giving him some extra time and cuddling
    usually helps.
    
    --bonnie

    Perhaps the threat of being locked in his room is frightening him?  It
    would frighten me. 

    I agree... locking Matt in his room frightens him... I have stopped
    doing it.
    
    I am beginning to at least partly see what is behind Matts reluctance
    to go to and stay in bed in his room beyond the normal just plain not
    wanting to go to bed.  (Matt is 3.8 yrs old).  Anyway, he is afraid...
    not so much of being locked in his room (that sure doesn't help) but
    of fires or being away from Mom or Dad.  He truely seems scared. We
    have tried reassurance in various ways.... we check out all the wires
    in his room and check to make sure they are good wires and not
    dangerous... logicically he agrees that there seems to be no real
    danger.... but emotionally he is not convinced.   Last night we woke up
    to noise in the night and he was sleeping on the hall floor right
    outside our bedroom!  He 'will not' allow himself to be put back to bed
    in his room... he fusses and even if we successfully get him back into
    his bed, shortly after he shows up on the hall floor again.   He would
    like to sleep with us... but we have resisted that figuring that if 
    THAT gets started we will never get him back into his room.  So the 
    compromise is the hall floor.  He simply wants to be near us because he
    is scared.  Rational enough but not particularly practical all the
    time.  This is a SUDDEN change.. he never had a problem with fires or
    needing to be near us ALL the time before.  Just a phase?  I hope so.
    
    My instincts tell me NOT to force him into his room to sleep.  But we
    'can't' have this kid sleeping on the floor all the time can we?  Well
    I guess we CAN because he is doing just that.  That is the 2nd night
    with him on the floor now... and... he keeps waking up and popping into
    our room at all hours of the night... needless to say non of us are
    getting much sleep, especially my wife because she is nearest the door
    and he calls her.  
    
    Forcing him into his room several nights ago resulted in a near panic
    especially when I locked the door.  So I learned not to do that. Am I
    being manipulated here?  
    
    What is going on here? Is this within the 'normal' range for a 3 year 
    old?  Obviously he needs MUCH more support and reassurance right now
    and we are trying to give him that... I just hadn't expected this 
    desperate need to practically sleep on top of us.  The sexual over
    tones of wanting to sleep near us isn't an issue because it isn't a
    sexual issue... it seems to be simply that he needs closeness.... but
    brother so MUCH closeness... my wife and I hardly have any personal
    space left to ourselves.  
    
    I know, be patient he will outgrow this.  (I hope so)!  What do we do
    in the meantime?
    
    Tx.  Jeff
    

    Jeff,
    
    No, I don't think you're being manipulated.  
    
    As far as I was able to figure out when Steven was going through
    this stage, it's perfectly normal.  My own experience has been
    that all the talk about teenagers and terrible twos not
    withstanding, 3.5 to 4.5 is by far the most difficult age to eal
    with. 
    
    Did you try reassuring him about what would happen if the house
    did burn down?  What to do if there is a fire (smoke detectors,
    how to get out of the house, how to shout for help if he's trapped
    in his room, especially not going into his closet to hide) and
    also how that you'd still take care of him and you'd find a new
    place to live?  If he's a reasonably intelligent kid in the New
    England area, he *knows* a lot of houses burn down, but people
    don't get killed every time.  
    
    It took a while -- a year, maybe, for the whole process -- but
    Steven seems to take enormous comfort in knowing there are some
    aspects he can control.
    
    Some things that sometimes help:
    
    Let him take something that belongs to one of you to bed with him. 
    In our case it was "hospital bear" (a carebear clone that Kat
    bought me when I was in the hospital with Steven, who then went to
    the hospital with her when she broke her arm).
    
    If you have a pet, let the pet sleep on his bed or in his room.
    
    Try leaving the door open.  Often just hearing us moving around
    the house comforted him, and after the first couple of days it
    didn't keep him awake.
    
    We did let Steven sleep in a sleeping bag in the corner of our
    room a few times during the crisis stages. 
    
    With Matt, do you think it might help, and would it be possible,
    for his mother to grab a break at work to say goodnight, and have
    that be the signal to start the bedtime routine?  
    
    It's a difficult stage for both parents and child.  One of the few
    things that helped me be patient with it was Steven's obvious
    distress and misery.  However hard it was on me, it was worse for
    him because besides being angry at himself for being childish and
    clingy, he was also terrified, and got to where he was as afraid
    of being afraid and out of control as he was of the fire.
    
    --bonnie
    

Not knowing what this film was about, I mistakenly let my boys talk me into
letting them see it.  If you don't know what it is, it's a monstor that attacks
people only when their asleep (awful, huh?).  My kids were 9 and 11.  The 11 
year old thought it funny, the 9 year old had problems for weeks.

We did several things.

1. Searched the entire house before putting Mark to bed for Freddy.

2. Left the light on.

3. Let his brother sleep on a mattress on the floor next to Mark's bed.

4. Tried having the dog sleep in his room (dog didn't want to).

5. Sat with him till he fell asleep.

6. Had his doctor perscribe an extremely mild homeopathic anti-anxiety type
   medicine.  This did have a slight effect of building his confidence.

The interesting thing is that on a logical level, he was completely convinced
that nothing was going to come and get him.  He was just irrationally 
frightened and unable to handle it.

Finally we did #7

7. I got the film out of the video club again and we watched it WITHOUT the 
   sound, fast forwarding through the dull parts and looking frame by frame at
   the scary bits, discussing the makeup and the phoniness, etc.  (Even then
   I found the film awful).  I held Mark while we did this.

A bit later (but not immediately) he suddenly stopped being afraid.

I think the point to make is that you must face your children's fears with
them head on.  Showing Mark there was no danger wasn't enough.  He had to look
the horror in the face directly and deal with it at a rational level rather
than an emotional level.  The suggestion of the previous note that you look
with your child at how to deal with a fire, take him perhaps to a firehouse
and see how the firemen deal with fires, etc. is very good.

In extreme cases, I think medication is a good think to get over the terrible
anxiety that a child has.  That you can discuss with your doctor.

And the idea of a "protector", a large stuffed animal (or a live one if you
have one).

ccb

    Here's another idea:
    
    Find a fireman (preferably in uniform) who will come to your house, do
    an inspection while your son watches, and have a talk with your son
    about his fears.  Maybe this authority figure/expert would be
    reassuring.  It certainly works for nervous adults.  An alternative
    would be an electrician who would arrive in his/her van with the ladder
    and tools: very official looking.  An electrical inspection is about
    $40.  My husband, who is an electrician, has been asked to do these. 
    
    Also, put a smoke detector on your son's ceiling.  Use a burning match
    to test it with your son's help.
    
    In two-story homes, its a good idea to have a chain-link safety ladder
    in the closet.  My husband got one from a catalog.  Let me know if you
    want the catalog name and phone number; I will ask him.  Your son could
    help you store the ladder in the closet after laying it out in the yard
    to see that it is intact.
    
    Laura

    We had a similar SUDDEN fear about going to bed this age, too.
    Only ours was lions!  We were afraid of lions everywhere.  We
    handled it be acknowledging the fear as valid, then took steps to
    keep the lions away -- gave her a play-hammer to sleep with to konk
    them on the head, sprayed with anti-lion spray, shooed the existing
    lions down the cellar before we went to bed.
    
    I think putting in a fire alarm is an excellent idea.  Also, practicing
    what to do in case of fire might help.  Be prepared for him to repeat
    over and over again, what he will do in the event of a fire -- it
    will give him reassurance.
    
    The fear is real, but it will pass.  Good luck...
    
    Diana

    Jeff,
    
    Meanwhile, to get through this phase, could you propose a 
    compromise with him as far as sleeping location goes? Maybe he 
    would agree to fall asleep in his own bed, then if he wakes up
    during the night feeling afraid, he could come sleep on the floor
    of your room in a sleeping bag. (And not 5 min. after bedtime,
    but after he'd given it a good shot in his own room. Or set an
    arbitrary limit, like after midnight, or after Mom and Dad have
    fallen asleep, or whatever.) I would think that after the fears
    have diminished, you would be able to negotiate him back to 
    sleeping all night in his own bed.
    
    Lucy

    Last night we were out late, didn't get home till 10.. (part of my
    tactics so we all could get at least one nights sleep).  Anyway Matt
    was literally falling asleep in my arms at bedtime.  Put him to bed
    with no protests and he slept through the night in his OWN bed, no
    hall floor last night.  He got up cheerfully enough when I did at 
    6:30 this AM.  Now lets hope the trend continues.  So last nights
    late schedule fixed the problem for that night... now the other one
    is to get him to bed at a reasonable hour (say no later than 8:30)
    AND have him sleep through the night in his own bed. 
    
    Your idea for a fire insp. complete with uniformed fireman is a good
    one.  There is already a smoke detector in Matts room, our room and
    the upstairs hall as well as others on the first floor.  I do test
    them in front of Matt occassionally..... especially the one in his
    room.
    
    Fire ladder... good idea... there is a flat roof leading from his
    window which would be easy to exit over unless THAT area of the 
    house was on fire... in  which case he would have to go out our
    2nd story bedroom window instead.  The problem with many 2 story
    houses is that the stairs act as a chimney which would make the
    upstairs hall between his room and our room impassable in some
    fire situations.  Thats why an independent exit from each bedroom is
    important. 
    
    Compromise sleeping situation if this continues: I will talk the
    idea over with my wife and see what she thinks. 
    
    I was reading a book my wife got out on kids.  The book said that
    at this age 3.5-4.5 or so kids tend to displace their aggression
    into fear because the intensity of their anger can threaten their
    sense of control over their own emotions... somehow, apparently it
    emerges as fear.  
    
    So... I am reassured, Matt seems normal enough but going through a
    stressful time in his life.. and we have to help him with it. 
    
    Thanks for all the help. 
    
    Jeff
    

On the subject of fear of fire, our daughter went through a phase like that 
AFTER a presentation at her school by a uniformed fireman.

Clay    

    The presentations and stuff don't always help because the fear
    isn't of fire per se.   It's of being out of control.  The child
    is old enough to recognize that they have the capacity to act, to
    do things, that their actions have consequences, that their
    emotions are very strong and potentially hurtful.  These are all
    important growth steps and indicate deepending maturity, but
    they're very scary for the child.
    
    It seems to show up at sleep time because going to sleep is an act
    of losing control.  The child is at the mercy of his own emotions
    in the form of nightmares. 
    
    That's why I said I found this the most difficult age, because
    basically the only way to deak with the fear is to try to help the
    child how to handle strong emotions like anger, fear of death,
    love, pain, etc. etc. etc.  Things like comfort objects and
    bedtime routines help the symptoms, but they're not really dealing
    with the underlying anxiety.
    
    With Steven, the anxiety began about when he toilet trained
    himself.  Literally overnight he decided he was done with diapers,
    and he never even had to be in training pants because he never had
    accidents.  But I think that while he was ready, the fear of not
    being ready and of having an accident -- of not being in control
    there, too -- contributed to his fears. 
    
    --bonnie

    RE .33, where are you located?  Would you like to "borrow" my husband
    the firefighter, with or without full gear for an hour?  
    
    Realistically, contact your local fire department, if you feel his
    fear stems from a "genuine" fear of fires in your home.  Either way ask
    the locals to explain to your child about "Operation E.D.I.T.H.", this
    stands for Exit Drill In The Home", they will tell your child at least
    two ways to get out of your home should it be on fire, maybe even
    explain that it really is best to keep bedroom doors shut at night. Yes
    they could even demostrate the use of the chain ladder, which by the
    way is generally kept near the window *not* in a closet in the room,
    for easy access.
    
    In our house we demonstrate the sound of the smoke detectors, he knows
    if he hears that sound to get out of the house by our prescribed ways.
    He also knows how to dial 9-1-1 if he sees a fire or other emergency,
    this is from his daycare, not us by the way.
    
    I would still question if it truly is fire he's afraid of, he may be
    using fire as his only way of telling you he's afraid of something
    else.
    
    Good Luck,
    and hoping for a full undisturbed night's sleep!
    Lyn

    Matt has started sleeping on the hall floor outside out bedroom. If you
    will remember he is afraid of fire and other things and goes into a
    panic if forced to stay in his room.  So the compromise is that he gets
    put to bed in his room... if he moves onto the hall floor later....
    then ok.. At bedtime in the evening he moves downstairs and falls
    asleep on the floor at the foot of the stairs upstairs.  When I go up
    to bed I take the sleeping kid up and put him in his bed.  Often
    when using the bathroom during the night one stumbles over him outside
    our bedroom door asleep on the floor.  Is the 'normal'.  He seems 
    truely afraid and wants to be near whoever is around during the night
    whether its Dad downstairs or both of us during the night.  I hope he
    outgrows this soon.  Matt is almost 4.
    
    Jeff

    Steven went through exactly the same thing -- even down to
    sleeping on the floor outside our door.  It lasted intensely for
    about two months and sporadically for two years after that. 
    
    At 7 he's still scarier than average, prone to panic spells, and
    has continued to be reluctant to go to sleep, until about three
    weeks ago when we started letting him sleep in the same room with
    his little brother.  They're now sharing a bunkbed and Steven is
    sleeping like a log and going to bed without complaint. 
    
    --bonnie

    I'd say try not to belittle or disparage the fear.... respect that he
    has it, try to work with him on adequate sleeping arrangements, and as
    Bonnie mentioned, it will lessen over time.
    
    best of luck,
    

    My 4 year old has found her own solution to her fear of the dark.  She
    balls herself into the corner of her bed and pulls the pillow over her
    head (and half of the rest of her).  That way she can't see how dark
    it is!!
    
    What logic!

    Jeff,
    
    I support what the others have said - take his fear seriously
    (which it seems you are doing) and work with him on some reasonable
    limits. Maybe sleeping in the hall is a good solution for all of you.
    The heck with what other kids do, or what people may say - trust your
    instincts. 
    
    It is normal. Our son ends up sleeping on the floor in our room
    quite often, although we insist that he go to bed in his own room and
    stay there until after we are asleep ourselves. 
    
    Lucy

    I draw the line at our door during the night. If Matt wants to move in
    after say 6 AM and sleep on the floor in our room, ok... the probem
    with that is that once its 6 am he tends to be up for the day and
    moving into our room almost guaranttes that we ALL are up for the day.
    Also I am concerned that if I give in and allow him to sleep in our
    room that will be it, we will 'never' get him back into his room. That
    HAS been the case with the hall floor so I don't think my concern is
    unfounded.  So we compromise.. he can move into the hall at will BUT
    once he is asleep he is subject to getting moved back into his own bed
    until he moves out into the hall again upon his waking. 
    
    When sleeping in our camper (in the backyard) which Matt and I do upon
    occasion on weekends he is NOT afraid.  Even if locked into the camper
    for his safety as I would be in the house for a couple of hours before
    my bedtime.  Kids are strange.
    
    I find his sleeping on the hall floor trying.  When I get up in the AM
    I am grumpy (I just want to be left alone) until I am awake and geared
    up for the day.... his being on the floor so I have to trip over him to
    get out of the room guaranttes he WILL wake up with me and I won't get
    a quiet time before work... such is life.
    
    Jeff

    Jeff,
    Could he be a bit lonely?  It's funny, my daughter used to complain
    about her sleeping arrangements.  She'd say -- you and Daddy get to
    sleep with each other.  Nathan and Jacob (her brothers) have each other
    to sleep with.  And I have to sleep alone!  
    
    She was lonely, didn't like sleeping by herself.  Well, we fixed that! 
    Gave her a little brother to sleep with 8?)!!  She's a lot happier now!
    
    If that's beyond how far you're willing to go, would you consider a pet
    for your son?  Perhaps a dog?
    
    Aside from that, sleep problems are by far the most annoying problems a
    parent is presented with to solve by my standards.  You seem to be
    handling it pretty well.  Be firm, yet patient.  Be understanding, yet
    set some rules.  That's my motto.
    

    
    Is there anything in Ferber's book that addresses this type of 
    problem?    Seems like there's gotta be...
    
    Carol

    A pet.... yes, we have a cat which LOVES Matt and Matt loves her...
    they are buddies... really, they are.  However if the cat (Molly)
    is allowed in his room they cut up and grab ass for hours which is
    hardly conducive to his sleeping... well who cares if he sleeps.
    I don't but when I find the cat hiding under his mattress (there is
    an open space) and Matt rearranging the room to get at her I draw
    the line.  They are playing and even though Molly is hiding its all
    in good fun.  What my point: Its that the pet is 'part of the problem'
    in that she stirs him up even more.   So, I now put Matt to bed in
    his room, he immediately follows me downstairs to the foot of the
    stairs and sacks out on the hall floor.  Ok, mission accomplished,
    I have a quiet kid and he is not scared.   At my bedtime I carry him
    up to his bed and put him into it.  He stays there until he wakes in
    the night whereuponhe moves to the upstairs hall floor outside of our
    room.  
    
    Oh well, at least he is quiet (most of the time).
    
    
    Jeff

    Up until very recently (the last week or so), Chelsea had been an
    extremently cooperative little girl, and gave us no trouble at all in
    going to bed.  However, now she has started to be difficult, saying
    "no" to everything, screaming when we put her into bed, insisting on
    watching "Chelsea on TV (home videos we have made), etc.  
    
    As far as the going to bed is concerned, her routine has been, going
    upstairs for a bath around 6:45, watching "Pat and Vanna", and then a
    bottle while being rocked, and then into the crib, where she would
    promptly go to sleep.  Now, if we can even get her into the bath, and
    get her rocked, and when asked if she wants into the crib, its NO!,
    and she starts crying hysterically.  She will eventually go to sleep if
    one of us lies down on the floor next to her crib, and pretends we are
    going to sleep there.  Last night she didn't fall asleep until 9.
    
    She is now 21.5 months, and is getting over anothe ear infection, and
    has a cold.  We are wondering, is she becoming a 2 year old, or are we
    seeing the effects of the cold/ear infection.?
    
    Mark
    

    Sounds to me like the "terrible twos" have invaded your home!
    
    Everyone, myself included, realized about 21 months old that a monster
    within our child has emerged!  Fortunately though, it also leaves
    several months before the third birthday.  
    
    From my experience, a lot of love and hugs, some gentle but firm
    persuatian, and TONS of patience is what a terrible two survivial kit is
    made up of.
    
    Lyn   

    Maybe a new bedtime routine would help.  When mine were about that age,
    bedtime was a total nightmare (and I was dealing with two two year olds
    at once).  I found altering the routine helped somewhat.  Reading a
    book together after baths.  Then getting into their big girl beds made
    a big difference.  It was around that age they made the transfer from
    cribs to youth beds.
    

    Mark,
    
    I think the cold and ear infection probably do have something to
    do with it, but probably growing up and beginning to have a sense
    of herself as an independent person has a lot more to do with it.  
    
    You probably need to do something to acknowledge her independence. 
    Is she talking well enough to have a conversation with, or answer
    questions coherently? My two-year-old's not, but if yours is, she
    might be able to give you some clues where to start.  Otherwise,
    some things I'd experiment would be:
    
    * big girl bed, as .-1 suggested
    * instead of rocking, doing another quiet activity together, like
      reading a book
    * move bedtime a bit later -- many kids start needing less sleep
      around 21-27 months.  
    * try letting her decide what order she wants to do things in.
    * substitute a bedtime snack at the table for the bottle in the
      rocking chair -- milk and graham crackers work well at our house. 
      It usually works best if the snack is the last thing you do
      before you take her upstairs. 
    * nightlight
    * quiet time in bed -- with all my kids, letting them go to bed
      with a book or quiet toy that they could read/play with for a
      few minutes before lights out helped them make the transition
      from awake to sleep time.  
    * quiet time in her room before she goes into the bed
    
    The fact that she starts to cry when you ask if she wants to go in
    the crib suggest to me that either the nightlight or the big-girl
    bed might be good places to start.  
    
    --bonnie