Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Kate,
    
    I did laugh when I read your description, but I agree that it is 
    maddening behavior to live with. My son was 3 in Nov, and since 
    the time of his birthday he does most of the things you describe.
    Terrible 2s?? What about 3!!
    
    I'm afraid I have no words of wisdom. I try to tell myself "it's
    only a stage - just a long one" and "he needs to go through this -
    though *why*, I don't know". Sometimes if I insist on him chosing
    one of two options he will cave in. Other times we have a tantrum, 
    timeout, the whole bit. I really try to live hour-by-hour with him. 
    
    This morning he was in and out of that kind of behavior, sunny one
    minute and stormy the next. Very appropriate for March in New 
    England... I'll be watching for helpful replies along with you.
    
    Lucy

If I think of anything, Kate, I'll let you know, but right now I'm looking
for the helpful replies, too!

Evan (turned 3 a week ago) is constantly telling us what it is *not* time
to do.  He also tells us that it is *not* dark outside, that Mumsy is *not*
at work, that it is *not* Grandma on the phone, etc, etc, etc.  :-}

I'm normally (used to be, at least) very effective getting him to do something
with my slow, rational responses to him.  However, with this "not" behaviour, 
I have learned to appreciate Shellie all the more, since she can get him to
agree to things *so* much easier than I can!  Kate, you are *not* alone!  
If nothing else, at least I give you support by telling you that! 

Hugs,
        Carol

My daughter just turned 3, and her behavior is identical
to what you all have described!

I've tried the reasoning approach which often works 
(unless she's just totally cranky).  It goes something
like this:

Rayna:  Where's Daddy?
Me:     He's at work?
Rayna:  No, he's not at work, he's at home.
Me:     Rayna, isn't Daddy usually at work when you
        get out of daycare?
Rayna:  No, he's at home. (Rayna walks into the house).
        Daddy!  Daddy? (Rayna bursts into tears).

OK, this approach has its flaws!  I guess we'll have to bear
with it until our three year olds move into their next 
"phase".

    HI,
    
    My son will be 3 in June.  I am in a similar situation.
    
    Josh keeps up "mommy do it" (getting dressed), mommy tries, "daddy do
    it", "grammy do it"  (grammy isn't even here).  "don't like that
    one"...  It is a losing battle.  At least this isn't an everyday
    occurance.  However, it is happening more.
    
    Then at supper... don't like  it, don't want it, then after a while he
    will eat.
    
    He is very independent.  I have tried saying okay you show mommy how
    you can do it like a big boy.  Can't do it.  Don't have to...
    
    HELP TOO!!
    
    Thank you!
    
    Denise Plant
    
    
    
    

    Oh geez, Ryan won't be 3 til July and we're already going through this
    stuff.  Finally last week I told him to stop arguing with me, to which
    he replied
    
    
    	"I can TOO argue with you, and I can argue with Dad....."
    
    I give up!
    

    I just have to answerthis.  As the mother of two one just turing four
    and a nine year old - I am in hysterics reading all this.  I too tried
    to be logical with my kids, but that won't do it!  You can tell them
    till you are blue in the face that black is not white and it just
    doesn't matter.  Try agreeing with them for a change.  How about his as
    sample dialogue.
    
    Mom: It's dinnertime.
    Child: No it's not.
    Mom: Ok, but I'm going to eat now and the TV won't be on during my
    dinner.
    Child: It won't?
    Mom: Nope, when you're hungry let me know.
    Child: Well maybe I'm hungry now.
    Mom: Ok, dinner is chicken.
    Child: I hate chicken.
    Mom: Ok, then how about bread and butter, that's your other choice.
    Child: How about a little chicken and a little bread and butter?
    Mom: OK.
    
    Of course it's never quite that easy, but the more you argue, the worse
    it's going to get.  I always find it amazing how much 3 year olds have
    learned about POWER!!
    
    Just take comfort in the fact that it does end, the fours and fives are
    wonderful.  Everybody has decided what their role is and life is
    lovely.
    
    Just take it a day at a time. 

    This dialogue sounds like the one we've been going through with our
    soon to be seven year old.  
    
    Donna

    Kate what a great note to enter!  I thought I was the only one dealing
    with a child who thinks white is black.  If he is home he doesn't want
    to go out...if he is out he doesn't want to go home...
    
    Stephen insists the new building on the way to daycare is a "truck
    house".  I said maybe it is but maybe it might be a bank.  He starts
    yelling at me "no, don't say that mommy I don't want you to say that!"
    Okay so it's a truckhouse, what do I know....
    
    Stephen will be 3 in 2 weeks.
    
    Hang in there...Karin

	Thanks for the discussion - I was searching under keyword of
	DISCIPLINE and was missing the info I needed to hear!

	I am being a solo parent of a 7 month old and a 2 1/2 yr. old
	for a couple of weeks and I think the older one, Derek, has
	caught onto my frazzle!!  I would have never labeled him a
	'terrible two' until this past week.

	Accomplishing some basic tasks/learnings with him has become
	a major challenge for me all of a sudden.  Such examples as:

	Me: Okay honeybunch, its time to wipe our face.
	Derek: No mommy
	Me: But here, look in the mirror.  You have peanut butter all
	    over your mouth. (pick him up to a mirror if we've even
	    managed to get that far!)
	Derek: No mommy. (dawdle, dawdle)
	Me: Derek, I am going to count to 3.  And either I do it myself
	    or you can do it.
	Derek: No mommy. (dawdle, dawdle)
	Me:  one, two, three .  (and then the scene breaks out into
	     tears etc.)

	Another one.  Dropping them off at Childcare.  Derek drops his
	mittens & hat in the hallway, very consciously.  Normally he'd
	be more than willing to pick them up, but....

	Me: Let's pick up our stuff and put them in our coat.
	Derek: No mommy - you do it.
	Me: Derek, I have my hands full (Kendra in one arm, a bag of
	    usual stuff in the other).  Beside, you dropped them, you
	    pick them up (too logical probably!)
	Derek: No mommy.
	Me:  Come on honey.  We can then go show your friends your new
	     boots (distraction?  incentive?)
	Derek: No mommy - you do it.
	Me:  Derek, I am going to count to three, and if you have not
		picked them up by then, we'll have to go back out to
		the car & sit and think about picking up our stuff
		(bad move after thinking about it...)
		One, two, three (he's counting on his fingers with me!).
	And off we go!

	Ugh, I dislike starting my day off with tears!!!

	Any advice on alternatives to deal with the obstinance????	

    Re:  all replies  - you MUST be discussing my daughter, Kate!  
    
    She is 2.7 years and has all the same symptoms that have been
    mentioned.  I have learned one basic rule of thumb:  CHOOSE MY BATTLES
    WISELY.  I have to repeat this to myself daily (maybe even hourly)...
    
    I, too, am glad to see that I'm not alone.  
    
    Enjoy, they'll only be 3 once! (Thank goodness!)
    
    Jeanne

    re .9
    
    I don't know what might happen, but what if you just LEFT the mittens
    there?  How would HE react??
    
    My first was a wonderful 3 year old - I'm paying for it and then some
    with Jason (now 3), so I don't pretend to know what to do here - we
    just tend to leave stuff because I don't have the energy to fight it.
    If he's got peanut butter on his face, he has peanut butter on his face
    and he stays away from the couch or we get it washed off.  Period. 
    Luckily he usually doesn't cry for long if we wash it off ..... and
    once he sees that he can't go near the couch (or whatever), he usually
    wants it washed off.
    
    Thank GOD they grow through this, huh?!
    
    Yours in battle,
    patty

I guess I must be a little old fashioned...But I feel more firmness with 
toddlers goes a long way to maintaining a happy, loving mother-child 
relationship.  I have a 7 year old, a 5 year old, a 3 year old and I'm due 
for my next in September.  I'm not advocating a dictatorship, but I think 
bringing yourself down to pleading with the child on their level shows them 
you don't have control...or a feeling of leadership in the home.  This can 
lead to some scary feelings on the part of the child.....(Gee, Mom is 
whining like me....we both don't know what we're doing!)

I have found good success in clearly defining boundaries and *CONSISTENTLY* 
sticking to them.  Similar to the no couch until your face is washed in the 
previous reply.

For example:

Mom:  Okay kids, please get dressed, brush your teeth and make your beds 
now.  When you are done, you can watch cartoons.  (Saturday morning)

3yr old: I can't get dressed.  You didn't set out my clothes.

Mom:  Yes I did, Hon. You didn't even look. Please go now and do as you 
were told.

3 yr old wanders off.....Mom hears the TV go on.  Goes to look.  Have 1 
child dressed watching, 1 child half dressed watching.....and the 3 yr old 
in pajamas smugly, smilingly watching.  TV is shut off.  Now all wander off 
to complete their tasks.  Well....maybe there are a few more reminders for 
the 3 year old...this time coming from the older siblings.

It certainly is not easy....but there are no more battles.  If one starts, 
I very calmly say " If you scream and cry, does Mommy ever change her mind? 
 (get a *no*)...So it justs make you and I sad...right?  ( get a *yes*) So 
wouldn't it be easier to just listen to Mom and then we can finish whatever 
and go play? "   They seem to understand that reasoning as they get older, 
but even my 3 year old gets the picture now.  
Tantrums are first met with the reasoning above and if there is no response 
the child is sent to their room to finish it where no attention will be 
lavished on him or her.

Again, I don't want to sound preachy. I'm just conveying what has worked 
well for me.  

Good luck,

Nancy

    Nancy, I couldn't agree with you more.  James, however, has something
    to say about EVERYTHING.  I really don't like to say to him, "Son,
    I don't want to hear it," because I don't want to give him the
    impression that I don't want to hear ANYTHING...but more and more
    frequently I've been saying that, or something along the lines of
    "The discussion is closed.  We are [whatever] and that is that.
    This announcement will not be repeated."  Maybe if I applied it
    a little more consistently...???  
    
    I am so glad to know I'm not alone, because I was starting to think
    I was raising a little monster.  

    Sarah hasn't gotten to the terrible three's yet, nor the
    terrible two's -- evidently, we are just in the practice
    stage. She's 20 months old, and we have lots of these type
    of conversations, which I find quite funny really:
    
    Me: Sarie, let's go upstairs to get dressed now.
    Sarah: Noooo.
    Me: Don't you want to get dressed?
    Sarah: No.
    Me: OK honey, you can stay in your pajamas if you want to.
    Sarah: No. No. No.
    Me: Well, let's go upstairs then.
    Sarah: Nooo.
    Me: I'll go upstairs and get your clothes, and be right back.
    Sarah: No! Nah. No-no-no.
    
    or... we have this type of conversation, which I don't find
    funny:
    
    Me: It's time to get in the car now.
    Sarah: No.
    Me: Yes, it is, we have to go.
    Sarah: No no no no.
    Me (forcing her in the car, into her carseat): Yes, dear, it's
        time to go.
    Sarah: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.
    
    There are lots of variation on this theme. Usually I'm able
    to be a combination of firm and loving, but I get back
    the same answer. I know, I know, she's asserting her identity
    as a separate person.  
    
    So, you say that three is more stubborn than two, and two is more
    stubborn than one? Yikes. Could it be simply that the verbal skills
    grow and there are more ways to say No?
    
    Tell me it ain't so.
    
    -Barbara

    Someone back a few said it's gets better by 4......OK WHEN????
    
    AJ was 4 in January and we're still dealing with the obstinate, major
    power struggles!  He gets up at the crack of dawn (thank heavens we
    moved the clocks yesterday, I got to sleep til 7:15 instead of 6:15)
    reasoning that if it's light out ("daytime out" in his terms) then it
    must be time to get up.  And oh boy did we have a bedtime battle last
    night because he had to have his bath while it was still "daytime out,
    mom!") and despite the room darkening shades it was another battle.
    
    We breathed a sigh of relief when the "WHY" stages left, only to
    discover it had been replaced with "HOW COME?", and occationally still
    a mixture of both!
    
    Has anyone invented an 8 hour hook so we can simply hang these kids up
    and out of trouble's way, yet???!!!

    My 4 year old has already started changing - sorry you are still having
    trouble, but it does get better!.
    
    Molly is always the first one up, so we leave breakfast in the
    refrigerator for her, a tape in the VCR and she is fine until
    somebody else gets up. She has stopped screaming at us and laying down
    on the floor.  She gets angry when she doesn't get her way, but is
    willing to compromise.  She will go to her room by herself when she is
    upset, cry it out, and come back out when she is ready.  All of this
    would have been unthinkable even 6 months ago.
    
    We have found that flexibility on both sides works.  So if your kid
    doesn't want to take a bath when it's light out now what are you going
    to do when it's light until 8:30 or 9 o'clock??  Same thing for bed??
    You have to work with your child to make the connection that it's
    the time or the order that's important not whether it's light or dark. 
    
    Good luck - it'll happen to you too!!