Conference moira::parenting_v3

    When I was a kid and had tantrums I'd lay down on the kitchen floor. 
    My folks just used to carry on as usual, stepping over me as I lay
    there screaming.  They say it worked for them. . .
    
    And now I'm a MONSTER!!!  (Just kidding.)
    
    Laura

    Your efforts have nothing to do with whether or how many tantrums she
    has. It is really just another developmental phase that you and she are
    going to live through whatever way you know how.
    
    Removing her from the situation - diversion - is probably the best bet
    for now. Reasoning is useless.
    
    We found that the terrible two's really happened for Ryan at 18 months,
    for a while, again at 21  months for a bit, and later at 27 months for
    a bit.  The actual time around turning 2 was a delight :-)
    

    Dottie,
    
    Glad you entered this note, I almost entered one like it last month. 
    My Michael turned 18mo on Feb 23rd and has been having fits since the
    last week of January.  He even had such a temper tantrum that carried
    on for 30+ minutes at the pedi's office.  It was awful, the nurse came
    out and announced that they were brining us in because he was "scaring
    the other children".  
    
    I remember my older son doing this, but not to the same extreme and it
    was over in 2 WEEKS!  We now (sitter included) remove him from the
    area.  I bring him into his room and sit him on the floor.  I DO NOT
    close the door.  Once he's put there he screams even louder, but I
    begin going back in and ask him if he's all done starting at 1/2
    minute.  Sometime he takes my hand and comes out the first time, other
    times (like yesterday) he carries on for 1/2 hr.  I really wish my son
    would let me console him when he gets like this, as that is what I
    would prefer to do.  Everytime he has a fit I try to cuddle him but he
    pushes me away and throws himself on the floor.  
    
    Oh well!! I can sympathize with you.  The temper tantrums never
    completely go away, the frequency becomes less though.
    
    Donna

Must be something in the air... my 21 month-old son has started doing this
a couple of times a week.  (I can't imagine going through 2 a day.  Sorry
for you.)  Anyway, it infuriated me at first, and I got angry and yelled 
back at him to stop screaming, etc.  Now I don't get angry, which seems to 
work a lot better for me.  Basically, he has a tantrum when I come to pick him 
up from the sitter's.  I carry him outside (restraining his arms so he can't 
hit me), put him in the car seat, and sit in the front seat of the car, with the
engine turned off, and wait for him to stop screaming.  Last night it took
25 minutes, but I think it's going to get alot better real
soon now.  When he stopped, it was as if he had suddenly changed into a
totally different person.  I think it really helps to not get angry or
react to the tantrum - have the attitude that you're sorry they're feeling
so out-of-control and you'll wait for them to get it together, and wouldn't
it be nice if he could stop screaming so that you could start the car, drive
home and make dinner together (amounts to a bribe, since this is a favorite
activity for him).

This only works if you have the time to sit in the car and wait it out
(you also have to toughen yourself a bit about what the neighbors or passersby
might say).  At home, you can put a screaming baby in the crib (mine doesn't 
climb out) or in his room.  It's hard to deal with when you're out in public
and there is no safe, boring place you can put him.  With my child, holding
him in my arms is not so good because then the tantrum becomes an expression
of his anger at me, instead of upset and frustration with a situation he can't
control.   Also, I don't want him to be able to try to hit me when he's in 
that state.  

    >> put him in the car seat, and sit in the front seat of the car, with the
    >> engine turned off, and wait for him to stop screaming....
    >> When he stopped, it was as if he had suddenly changed into a
    >> totally different person.  I think it really helps to not get angry or
    >> react to the tantrum - have the attitude that you're sorry they're 
    >> feeling so out-of-control and you'll wait for them to get it together
    
    Absolutely!  It amazed me when Alex and I were sitting in the car,
    exact same scenario, and I would ask her every 3 minutes or so if she
    was finished yet.  She'd stop in mid-scream, her breath still hitching,
    and say in a very polite and slightly apologetic voice, "Not yet," then
    resume shrieking!  I did feel pretty absurd sitting there (in a
    department store parking lot) staring out my window acting nonchalant. 
    But it *worked* and in hindsight this doing-time-out-*with*-Alex was a
    kindness to both of us.  We just had to ride it out.
    
    Leslie
    

    I have a funny feeling that my 4 1/2 month old son is going to have his
    dad's temper. I see it from time to time already. Basically, Daniel has
    been developing a humorous personality, which my husband and I enjoy
    very much as we both have a keen sense of humor.

    There are times though, that my husband can "fly off the handle" and
    explode for no apparent reason. Unfortunately, I have seen this with
    Daniel, too.

    If I notice that Daniel is getting frustrated, I usually start playing
    with him and he forgets that he was frustrated. Soon he is giggling and
    playing with me like nothing happened.

    I'm hoping that I can continue to distract him, but there will come a
    day.... I can just feel it coming on.....

    Norma

    It's just amazing that you don't realize how early children (babies)
    develop so many facets of their personality.  At least the two of us
    are amazed.
    
    My daugther got very mad at me last night.  She was holding her bottle
    and shaking it so the formula would spurt out.  I told her to stop it
    and when she didn't I took the bottle away from her.
    
    Did she ever get *pi**ed*!  She screamed and her body went totally erect. 
    I didn't know 9 month old kids did these kinds of things.
    
    I wanted an independent child.  The old adage applies:  Be careful what
    you wish for.  
    
    I'm sure I'll be visiting this note again...
    
    judy

    
    A friend of mine had a remedy for tantrums.  Her mother used
    it on her and her brothers and sisters....
    
    Take the child, clothes and all, and put them in a COLD shower
    until they stop. 
    
    She said her son had 1 more tantrum after that and never again.
    Now when he gets 'mad' at her she can talk him through it and he will
    listen realizing that a tantrum will get him nothing but wet.
    
    She has recommended this method to other moms and they also found
    it to be a quick and easy solution. 
    
    
    
    

Im sorry but to me a cold shower for a small child's tantrum is just about
as indecent as washing a kids mouth out with soap for saying bad words.

the punishment does not fit the "crime".

-N

    RE: .-9 

    The child is not being 'punished'. His behavior is being modified.
    A cold shower will quickly bring them back to reality and make them
    think about their current behavior. At this stage the parent can
    intervene and support proper behavior - but first the tantrum
    must stop.

    I prefer a small cold glass of water to a cold shower myself. Once is
    all it takes most of the time.
    
    Doug.
    

    Even a glass of cold water (in the face?  over the head?) seems
    too harsh to me.  If I was having a temper tantrum (adults have
    them, too) and my husband or anyone dared do that to me, I'd be 
    extraordinarily p*ssed and very unforgiving.  I could never throw 
    my child in the shower like that or even dump a glass of water 
    over his head.
    
    Donna
    

    TEMPER: We always ask my son to put down whatever is making him
    frustrated and come back to it later. 
    
    TANTRUM: "It's OK to cry, but it hurts my ears. So please go to your
    room until you are done. When you are finished crying, come back out
    and I'll play with you."
    
    

    >TANTRUM: "It's OK to cry, but it hurts my ears. So please go to your
    >room until you are done. When you are finished crying, come back out
    >and I'll play with you."
    
    If you can talk to the child and he/she responds then it is not a 
    tantrum they're having.

    I've found that a good response to a temper tantrum (whatever the
    cause) is a time out.  Previous responses have indicated similarly. 
    Whether you choose to use "time-out" in a car, a room, or a quiet place is
    really up to you; the idea is to provide a stop in activity and give
    the child an opportunity to regain control of him/herself.   
    
    Just as an aside...if anyone threw a glass of water at me when I was
    angry, they'd be dead meat.  Violent force only begets violent force.  
    Of course, that doesn't mean I find it easy to take my screaming
    daughter and place her in a "time-out" spot, but I suppose serenity is
    something I may learn...eventually...maybe...
    
    Good luck,
    Lois
    
    

    
    I think this note would benifit from a clear definition of tantrum.
    

    Yes, I thought we were initially talking about the child who
    becomes hysterical and out of control -- even physically removing
    such a child to a quiet place doesn't always work. 
    
    --bonnie

When Evan is acting along these lines we ignore him.  If he hits one of us
then he goes into timeout.  Then we ignore him again until timeout is over.

       Carol

(FYI, Evan is 3 years old - today)

    Ignoring Steven seems to make him even more upset.
    
    I never thought of the cold water.  I wonder if it would have
    helped.  
    
    He does seem to be outgrowing it, along with most of his
    irrational fears.  He's almost 7 now.
    
    --bonnie

    Personally, I think the cold shower is terrible!  I would never
    even consider using this tactic.  As adults, we're suppose to
    "try" and handle these situations rationally.  I'm not passing
    judgement, as I haven't really experienced what I'd call a real
    tantrum yet, but certainly would try all other alternatives.
    
    Linda

    Having some insight into the education of special needs and physically 
    challenged children I might have a very different idea of what a tantrum 
    is. A fit every now or then is not cause for any special attention. 
    Chronic fits and tantrums are.

    I have seen children whos' fits increase in intensity and ferocity
    to the point that they become unmanageable and down right dangerous
    to their own physical well being. There come a point where a
    fit becomes a tantrum. If a child reaches a pattern of chronic
    (especially spontaneous) tantrums then it is time to intervene 
    and modify the behavior.

    Water, used as a tool, is harmless. It is used to move their attention
    from whatever is making them frantic to focusing on you, the adult. It 
    *shocks* them! Now the adult is in a position to deal with the episode.
    It also gives the child something to think about the next time he
    starts getting worked up.

    The good news is that you only need to do this once to stop the
    behavior in its tracks.

    I don't advocate the use of water/showers as a standard disciplinary
    tool But there are times when its uses are justified.

    Doug.
    

    Our pedi said that the easiest remedy for tantrums is what she
    called "isolation."  In other words, put the child somewhere safe
    (in our case, it was James' crib) and shut the door and IGNORE
    them till they calm down.  I agree with Bonnie, we've had several
    instances where James kept going for 30-40 minutes.  He'd pause
    for a few minutes, then start screaming again.  But eventually
    (and it seems like forever) he stops.  
    
    I don't like the idea of using cold water.  On the other hand,
    a semi-deliberate tantrum in a 3.5 or 4 year old might warrant it.
    
    This is one case where your mileage will DEFINITELY vary.  I wold
    say to .0, try a technique, like putting the child in her crib, for
    three weeks or so and see how it works.  Frankly, once James turned
    18 months or so, I didn't have any luck at all with distraction
    techniques and thus we went to putting him in his crib till he
    calmed down.  
    
    How you act AFTER the tantrum is over is also important.  I try
    to cuddle James and explain that that's not the way we deal with
    frustration/anger/etc.  Of course, if he's overtired, the only
    solution is a nap.
    
    Good luck...I try to take comfort from the fact that the tantrums
    mean he's trying to develop his own identity and his own personality.
    AFter all, if he could be led around by the nose he would just have
    a hard time in later life.

    Your child's personality has a lot to do with it, too.
    
    The worst thing about leaving Steven to scream it out, besides
    listening to him grow so hysterical he eventually collapsed from
    exhaustion, was the crushed frightened way he'd behave after he
    woke up.  It was like, "I was counting on you to help me get
    myself back under control, and you abandoned me too, and I'm so
    scared of everything and what am I going to do?"  And then the
    least little thing would set him off again.
    
    We found that trying to maintain contact somehow -- and Neil was a
    lot better at this than I was -- until he could calm down was
    better in the long run.  Holding both his hands in front of his
    face seemed to help, too.  And I confess that a time or two I lost
    my cool, too, and slapped him; surprisingly, that seemed to snap
    him back to reality much better than isolation.
    
    I always felt like leaving him to cry it out a few more times
    would have worked, all right -- it would have made him so afraid
    of his emotions that he'd try to hold it all in and act it out in
    other ways.  This way has been slow but it seems that he's finally
    learning how to keep himself under control, how to express
    himself, how to find other ways to deal with the frustration or
    panic.  
    
    I should add that the isolation and distraction techniques worked
    exactly as advertised for Kat, so I don't think this is just
    wimpiness on my part. 
    
    --bonnie

    
    Don't mean to rathole hear but I had a question...
    
    How can a tantrum be *helping* the child develop?  (other than
    maybe exercise his/her lungs a bit..)Collapsing from exhaustion
    cannot be healthy for a child...
    
    As an adult, have you ever seen another adult *have a tantrum*?
    (don't mean to be mellowdramatic but aren't crimes committed
    because people claim they were *out of control*? and couldn't
    help themselves?..just a thought)
    
    Isn't a tantrum also similar to an out of control situation?  The
    child does not know why or what he may be screaming at but it
    must be ok...mom & dad are letting me do it...
    
    What do you all think about this?  Obviously, if a child has
    a tantrum regularly, ignoring the child or isolation must not be
    working...he/she is still doing it...
    
    I wrote the note about my friend who uses a cold shower, I think
    a glass of water would work just as well...GET THEIR ATTENTION!
    
    One thing I have to say, if you only need to do it once and it
    works, you can spend your time more productively teaching the 
    child better development techniques instead of dealing with 
    tantrums all the time...
    
    
    

    re: .23
    
    Part of the point is to teach the child how to handle his or her
    emotions so s/he doesn't get out of control.  Yes, I have seen
    adults have tantrums, and not necessarily ones that lead to
    murders, either. Some adults are surprisingly childish.  I don't
    want my kids to be among them.  I want them to recognize their
    emotions and know appropriate ways of dealing with those
    emotions -- how to cry if that's what's needed, how to express
    their anger safely without violence, how to show love, how to deal
    with frustration.
    
    It's a long slow learning process, and just when you think you've
    got it all under control, the child reaches a new stage and new
    emotions that you haven't seen before.
    
    So the tantrum itself doesn't help the child develop, but learning
    to cope with the situation that triggered it and the emotions that
    cause it and that follow it do help the development.
    
    --bonnie

    Quite a few replies back, someone asked for a definition of 'tantrum'. 
    Mine is based solely on the horrifying behavior of my son, Jason.  What
    began as a simple (normal) timeout by his father, turned into a battle
    of wills (sit on the couch - No! - SIT ON THE COUCH!  *NO!*), and ended
    with Jason crying/screaming/kicking himself to the point of my husband
    could do NOTHING for him, all he wanted was me, and eventually hubby
    called me at work, and I had to leave to get the kid to stop.  He was
    COMPLETELY inconsolable, time alone, time cuddling, or a spanking
    mattered not at ALL.  I'd be quite sure that a glass of water would've
    only intensified his anger.  BUT it might have snapped him out of it. 
    After about 50 minutes of crying "I want Mommy" and not even being
    coherent enough to understand I was THERE, he exhausted himself. 
    THAT's what I call a tantrum.
    
    Jason had 3 of them, and if they EVER return, it'll be TOO SOON!!  The
    first time, I assumed that more must have happened then my husband let
    on, and I thought it was partly because Jason was in a very "I want my
    mommy" stage.  The second time it happened, I was home, and it started
    all the same, and it ended that all he wanted was his Great-Grandma
    (who lives halfway across the country!).  We had talked the a little
    the day after his first tantrum, but not a lot.  After the second one,
    we had a LONG (but 'simple') talk with Jason, and explained that he
    couldn't get that mad, and I couldn't come home from work just because
    he was crying, and that it was okay to be MAD.  The third and last time
    it happened, we realized that WE had some control triggering it (more
    later), and again, we had a talk afterwards, during which I explained
    that it was okay to be BAD sometimes, and that EVERYBODY does naughty
    things sometimes, and that everyone has to DO THINGS they don't WANT to
    do (I don't want to work, Daddy doesn't want to mow the grass, Jason
    doesn't want to pick up his toys - but we still have to do it).  *THIS*
    really seemed to hit home with what was going on for him.  Apparantly
    he felt unfairly persecuted.  Once he realized that he wasn't the ONLY
    one being 'picked on' (as he saw it), he was able to accept our
    expectations of him, and deal with timeouts much easier.
    
    AND, as I said, WE were triggering some of it.  He's a *VERY* sensitive
    child, and somewhere along the line he learned to understand MUCH
    better than we were giving him credit for, so we tended not to explain
    as much as he probably needed explained, therefore I'm sure he thought
    we were just being 'mean'.  And, his stage of punishment would be
    something to the effect of (getting progressively harsher) a)sit on the 
    couch (screaming starts), b) shut off the tv  c)go upstairs to your
    room.  Since he never understood really why he was on the couch in the
    first place, the screaming never ceased, and by the time it was time to
    go to his room, he was completely hysterical, and sending him to his
    room only worsened the tantrum.  We found that if we sat him on the
    couch and sat WITH him and made SURE he understood what was going on,
    he calmed right down.  Phew.!!
    
    I hope this can help one person get out of even one tantrum - I know
    what a horrible feeling that is watching your child and not being able
    to do anything to help them gain control.
    
    GOOD LUCK!!
    Patty

    
    I hope this is in keeping with the basenote enough...it doesn't
    seem worthy of it's own topic.  
    
    My son, Jason, just turned 18 months.  I believe that whoever
    coined the phrase "Terrible Twos" was off by about 6 months!
    Anyways, we have yet to experience an all out fit as described
    here (something to look forward to...).   However, he has been
    doing a couple of things lately that really get on my nerves:
    throwing things and pushing/hitting me.  He will be playing 
    nicely with a toy and then all of a sudden smash it to the
    ground then look up at me with an innocent face and ask for
    the toy...this happens at the dinner table with spoons, forks,
    food, and cups, too.   What is the "proper" response to this
    behaviour?    The pushing/hitting just started 2 days ago...I'm
    uncomfortable with pushing/hitting back and have tried "crying"
    but he doesn't seem to care.   Again, how would you handle this
    behaviour?   I live in fear that I'm raising a monster!
    
    He also has the mini-fits when he can't have something he wants
    ("knife, cut, plllleeaaazzze", he says, as if the please guarantees
    he'll get it!) but so far, if I just ignore him, he'll stop within
    5 minutes.
    
    Thanks,
    Carol

    Two questions:
    
    Bonnie (Randall), don't you have another son who would be about
    18 months now?  How do you  handle his tantrums?  Does he behave
    the way Steven did (does?) ?
    
    
    And Re: .20:
            What do you mean, "Don't listen to Spock"? Does he talk
            about cold showers for tantrums?  I still find Spock quite
            soothing and effective.
    
    jacki
    

    RE: .26

    He is testing you, your responses, his limits, and part of it may
    even be a game to him. Being a child there is much he does not
    understand and needs a guiding hand.

    Don't ignore him. If he throws and item down once, return it to him.
    Twice, pick up the item, explain the bad behavior to him, and return
    it. Three time, pick up the item and put it away.

    As parents we are responsible for defining the acceptable behavior of
    our children and must communicate this to them. Ignoring them does not
    send the right message. (I shudder when I think of putting a child in
    isolation during a tantrum). Be consistent.

    If he asks for something he can't or shouldn't have - say no. If he
    persists, continue to say no.

    Each child is different but I would like to share with you what works
    very well with my daughter Colleen. The further her actions are
    from proper behavior, the firmer my response is (measured response?).
    There are times when Colleen gets upset/offended after being disciplined
    and begins to cry. If she cries I'll pick her up and require her to
    put her head down on my shoulder until the crying stops. This action
    enforces the discipline while letting her know that daddy is still there
    to take care and console her and still loves her even when she
    misbehaves. So far so good.  She's the perfect little child :-) (no
    bias here eh!)
    
    Also be aware that some behavior is just a phase, like hitting. My
    rule of thumb is that if a new behavior appears, don't give it any
    undue attention and wait a few days before addressing it with discipline.
    Quite frequently these behaviors disappear by themselves.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Doug.



     

    
    >And Re: .20:
    >        What do you mean, "Don't listen to Spock"? Does he talk
    >        about cold showers for tantrums?  I still find Spock quite
    >        soothing and effective.
    
    If you've read his work you would know that he does not advocate
    cold showers. But his solutions don't fit the real world and I find
    him to be quite lame.
    
    No offense intended,
    Doug

    re: .27
    
    Yes, my other son is 17 months now, and he's showing some of the
    same behavior.  The hitting is a bit of a problem, but we find
    that just putting him down when he gets too rough and telling him,
    "No, you can't be up if you hit people" generally makes him stop,
    and he's doing a lot less of it. 
    
    The thing he throws most is his food as soon as he's done.  That's
    led to some royal messes . . . he just wants to emphatically let
    us know "no more food." Again, we've found that explaining that he
    doesn't need to throw the food, he should just push it aside when
    he's done, has gradually soaked through.  I think one of the
    problems was that we were inadvertently ignoring his signals that
    he'd had enough.  
    
    He'll stamp his feet and scream when we tell him he can't have
    something, or stop him from playing with the computer, or remove
    him from close association with plug-ins, but it only lasts a
    minute or so, and the time is gradually getting shorter. 
    
    But even his worst tantrums are nothing like Steven's.  He never
    seems to get out of control even when he's very very angry.  Kat
    never did, either.  It seems to be something in Steven's emotional
    makeup that makes him more vulnerable to that kind of situation.
    
    --bonnie
    
    

    
    
    My 5 1/2 year old daughter, Jade, still has tantrums unfotunately!
    While they're not as obvious as the ones she had as a toddler, they 
    can be just as frustrating.
    
    The stamping/shouting behaviour appears to have been replaced with
    stroppy/mean comments & wow! those evil stares!!
    
    The good news is, it's a lot easier these days to talk & reason with
    her & explain why her behaviour is unreasonable.
    
    We're getting there!!
    
    Liz

    re .26
    Must be something in the name .... (-:
    
    I think that Jason is testing you - thus the "Okay, now I did something
    wrong, let's LOOK at Mom and see how she's reacting!"-look that you're
    getting from him.
    
    I would try to make it clear that the behavior is unacceptable.  We
    tried to ignore it and hope it would pass (which worked fine with
    Christopher), but with Jason has only led to more problems - now he
    slugs the cat and gives us the same look.  If I cry, he laughs, if I
    say he made the kitty said, he could care less (Me no LIKE Kitty!).  If
    we time-out, he could care less (Okay, I'll go sit on the couch - it
    was worth it to get to hit the cat!).  The child is missing any type of
    basic remorse, and I have a feeling we had something to do with it -
    though I can't figure out WHAT.  Especially since we glance sideways at
    his brother, and he feels guilty for hours.  
    
    If you believe that people's behavior has anything to do with their
    names (and I believe it a *LOT*), then I'd suggest you don't let him
    get away with anything .... it's only going to get worse!!
    
    Anyone else with any Jason's care to comment??
    
    Patty

    
    Patty,
    
    This Jason was colicky, too.   Didn't you write somewhere in here
    that yours was as well??   Anyways, he is a devil on one hand...but
    can be the most loveable, hugging, kissing little boy on the other.
    
    carol

    Carol,
    
    To digress from the topic for a quick reply .....
    Yes, Jason was colicky as well.  He is the devil, and I've always said
    if he wasn't so cute we'd have killed him (NOT REALLY!) long ago!!
    That killer smile and the big hug gets him out of trouble sometimes.
    
    Maybe we should start a note on Names and common behavior?!  I know I'd
    never name a kid Jason again! (-:  And that's also based on OTHER
    Jasons I know too.  No fear in this one!
    
    Patty

    Patty, 
    
    Look for something he DOES mind giving up.  TV, for instance, or
    video games, or his allowance, or playing with friends.  Or
    require him to do some manual labor, like sweeping the kitchen or
    whatever chores you have that are within his range (I forget how
    old Jason is).  
    
    I found that time out generally works best to give the child time
    to get himself back under control and to think about what he did
    wrong.  For "this behavior isn't acceptable and if you engage in
    it you'll be punished," something else is necessary.  I remember
    reading that the characteristics of such punishment have to be
    that it's immediate, that it's consistently administered (don't
    punish him only every third time he hits the cat), that it be
    reasonably connected to the offense, and that it not go on so long
    that the child perceives it as unfair (and so the child can start
    implementing the new, improved behavior right away). 
    
    A good swift flat of the hand to the seat of the pants might not
    be an unreasonable tactic, depending on your feelings about
    corporal punishment.
    
    --bonnie

    Bonnie,
    
    	I like all your ideas .... and unfortunately have tried them all!!
    There is nothing that he likes so much that he wouldn't mind giving it
    up.  Manual labor doesn't bother him.  Where we struggle most is that
    it doesn't seem to matter WHAT type of 'punishment' is administered -
    it doesn't deter the behavior.  He is quite aware that he will be
    punished - it's just that it seems like he thinks it's worth it.
    
    For instance, he'll slug the cat - or his brother - and turn around and
    say "Are you going to spank me now?" or "Should I go sit on the couch
    now?".  It just doesn't BOTHER him!!  About the ONLY thing that he's
    really attached to is his blanket, and I don't have the heart to take
    that from him - it'd be easier to remove a limb!
    
    Any other ideas?!  He's 3.  He could care less about T.V., has no
    allowance, only really plays with his brother or the kids at daycare
    while at daycare, doesn't like video games, and as I said, manual labor
    doesn't bother him (actually, he's thrilled to be able to work like the
    'big people'!)
    
    The only other thing that I can think of that he really enjoys is
    cuddling with mom or dad, but I'd be afraid of sending a wrong message
    (I don't like you anymore) if we were to take that away.
    
    Me

    Hm. Is hitting the only thing he does this with?  I'm beginning to
    suspect he's jealous of the baby and the cat.  (David is certainly
    jealous of our cat!)
    
    Maybe the answer is less punishment and more cuddles.  I don't
    mean ignore the hitting, but to dish out lots of cuddles and
    praise when he's doing things right, or when he interacts
    positively with his brother?
    
    --bonnie

    I'd be surprised if he's jealous of the cat because we don't like the
    cat (much) - him and his brother do.  BTW - his brother is 5 1/2.  It's
    not just hitting - it's anything that he does 'wrong' - we haven't
    found a way to make an impact on him.  He's a pretty easy-going happy
    kid - but, like all kids, he misbehaves.  UNLIKE most kids, the
    'punishment' is part of the misbehaving, he takes it, gets up and goes
    along his merry way without the slightest trace of remorse.  For
    example - he'll take a cup of whatever, tip it upside down, get up get
    a towel, clean it up and plop himself in the chair.  Kind of like his
    brain is saying "Well, if I spill this milk, I'll have to clean it up
    and go sit in the chair for a while, maybe get a spanking - that's worth 
    it - SPLASH!"
    
    We'd be hard pressed to cuddle him more - and he probably wouldn't stand for
    it.  Christopher was never a cuddly kid, so we take our cuddles out on
    Jason (-:  
    
    I guess we're struggling with 'how to make him feel bad'.... I don't
    mean to imply that he's terribly out of control or incredibly
    misbehaved (because he's not), it's just that during those times when
    we *MUST* make a **MAJOR** impact on him (like if he runs in street),
    there doesn't seem to be a way.... so far anyhow!  
    
    ... I'm amazed at how different 2 kids from the same parents can be!
    
    patty
    

re: .36, .38

Yes, it is terribly frustrating.  There's one thing that I'd
caution, and that's to resist the temptation to escalate until he
DOES feel "punished".  Doing that is usually a sign that it's
become a power struggle, in which case it means that you've already
lost.

To some extent you've already accomplished something desirable --
he understands that certain acts have consequences.  Now that's ok
for the spilling water on the floor, but not for hitting his
brother or the cat.  In those cases, perhaps ignoring the behavior
is preferable; it may be that the behavior is designed, consciously
or unconsciously, to get attention.  For example if he hits the
cat, tell him matter-of-factly to go to his room, then immediately
turn your attention to comforting the cat.  One thing I've read
about discipline in cases like that, is that we too often focus on
the misbehaver rather than the victim.  The victim is left to
suffer, and the misbehaver gets what he wants -- attention.

I absolutely agree with you, don't resort to taking away the
blanket or withholding affection.  Neither has anything to do with
the misbehavior.

Clay

    Clay,
    
    	Now that you mention it ..... that's exactly what happens!!  i've
    been trying to UNDERSTAND what is causing this child to act this way,
    so rather than 'comfort the victim', we try to talk (or sometimes just
    yell) at Jason.  And you're right, his brother will be sitting there
    whining that he got hurt  - which isn't usually true, so usually gets
    brushed aside.  We've also sat down and talked with them, and decided
    upon fair punishments for their common crimes - for the most part this
    has worked out MUCH better.
    	Thanks for your note - I shall try re-directing my attentions, and
    hopefully he'll see that he's going to have to be nicer to get what
    he's really after.
    	Part of me can't help wondering one other thing though ... when he
    was much younger, the 'bigger' kids (his brother and an older kid at
    the babysitter) used to sort of pick on Jason because he couldn't
    really fight back.  Well, now he can, so how much of this is just
    revenge, and how much is TOO much?  Anyone else out there experience
    this?
    
    Thanks for all the help - maybe it's not too late, huh?!
    
    Patty

    I'd like to throw a couple things out, just for fun and opinions...
    
    As I grew up my mother related a story of my sisters first and last
    temper tantrum.  She laid down on the kitchen floor and started kicking
    and screaming, my mother without saying a word, just went and got a
    glass of cold water and threw it on her, she stopped and never had
    another.  You could always tell as she told this story she considered
    it one of her parenting triumphs!
    
    I've done some reading on temper tantrums and have heard a couple ways
    of dealing with them, and with these I tend to agree.
    
    First, ignore it if at all possible.  It enforces the theory that if
    you ignore it, it will go away.  By paying attention to the TT, you're
    reenforcing negative behaviour.  This could include shutting the door
    to the room, if possible or simple walking away from the situation and
    letting it defuse itself.
    
    I've read that you should take the child and give him/her a big
    bear-hug, and tell the child (whether or not s/he hears you) that your
    going to give him a big hug and hold him real tight until they calm
    down. (and don't forget to include some kisses too)
    
    With AJ we have a saying, which runs from Temper Tantrums to just being
    whiney, he repeats the rule and knows what it means...."AJ what do you
    get when you whine?"  He says "nothing!" and he know that means he get
    NO reward for being whiney or just plain bratty.  Although I'll admit
    there have been times when I've been tempted to haul off and belt the
    kid, but we all know that's a NO NO big time!
    
    Lyn

    I remember my doctor commenting on tantrums before Ryan started having
    them; she remarked that toddlers can easily scare themselves when they
    get so out of control, so the hug is really necessary to calm them down
    - not to condone the tantrum.