Conference moira::parenting_v3

    
    	There is an article about this very topic in the recent Parent's
    Magazine. Apparently a little boy had some sort of emotional trauma and
    decided to hold back his bowels.
    
    	As the problem only got worse for the little boy (to the point of
    the mother having to use enemas) the final solution was a check with a
    GI Doctor to ensure that nothing was physically wrong and then off to a
    child therapist to literally work out the problem.
    
    	I'm not saying that this is your case exactly, but you might want
    to read the artivle, if you can't find it, I can send a copy of it
    thorugh the interoffice mail to you.
    
    				Wendy 

    My daughter had this problem when she was potty training.  Evidently
    she had a few painful bm's (constipation) and it made her fearful of
    going.  The constipation only got worse because she was holding it.  
    The doctor I had at the time said to give her some milk of magnesia (I
    think that's what it was, it was a year ago)  Anyway, it worked
    allright!!!  She lost it all at my aunt's house.  It was a real mess,
    but everything was fine after that.  I will say though, I wasn't crazy
    about giving her the laxative, but I didn't want to her to get real
    sick either.
    
    I know this is going to sound crazy, but after that incident we would
    give her a book to read while she was going potty, or I would sit in
    the bathroom with her and sing a song to her.  It would relax her and
    take her mind off of what she was doing!!!
    
    Good luck!
    Joyce

    Although you may not be pressuring/suggesting at home, your son may be
    feeling subtle pressure from peers or staff at daycare. I'd raise the
    concern with the day care folks.  My son Ryan recently went through
    this - he uses the potty for #2 quite willingly and of his own volition
    - and suddenly stopped. In addition to talking to him about the fear
    and hurting, I worked with the day care provider to get him back to not
    being fearful. Sitting with him and/or having a book for distraction
    have both helped out.
    
    

One possibility is the water supply at the new day care ...

I tend to find that water in some areas tends to bind me up, and water in
other places makes me more loose than normal.  It can be quite uncomfortable
until it all settles down.  But what is the hardest to adapt to is
changing.

Stuart

    My daughter had the same "problem" when she was trained.  The biggest
    problem she had was fear.  Same as a prior response, she was
    constipated once and hit hurt so she decided I'm not doing this again.
    It was a very frustrating time.  The one thing that seemed to help, for
    her anyways, was when she was trying to go, she'ld scoot her bum
    further into the toilet, the angle made it easier for her.  Also, we
    would really praise her and remind her how great it must feel to have
    it out.  (What strange subjects we discuss)
    

    My son David is 3+ and has been trained for nearly a year now (daytime),
    but still wears diapers at night.  He will often (maybe unconsciously, I'm
    not sure) manage to time things so that he does his poop-of-the-day while
    he has a diaper on, doing it either right after he gets his bedtime
    diaper on, or balking at getting his diaper off in the morning, and doing
    it then.  In a previous note, some other parents had similar situations
    with their kids.  So my suggestion would be to let him wear a diaper
    for a while each day and see if he's more comfortable doing his
    pooping there, if he's agreeable to having a diaper on, and you don't
    think this will disrupt his use of the potty.

					cheryl

    I'm going through a similar problem right now with my 7 year old. It
    really has me baffled as to why she's holding in her bowel movements.
    She tells me that she holds it in because it hurts too much to let it
    out. I've tried giving her a mild laxative with the impression that her
    movements are either very hard or too large for her, but I'm finding
    out that that isn't the problem at all. What little movements do happen
    despite her efforts to hold them in, are very soft.

    So now, I'm suspecting other problems (hemorrhoids maybe?). I'll be
    taking her to the doctors today - hopefully, we'll be able to resolve
    this problem soon. It really kills me to see her have such a painful
    time with this.

	Kelley

    I'd make two suggestions, and heaven knows I've got *lots* of practice
    in this subject considering AJ's major encounters with bowel problems!
    
    Even if your child can't actually read, still provide a book for
    distraction purposes, as active as AJ has been this seems to keep him
    in one place long enough to "go".
    
    Second, several of his doctors have suggested mineral oil on a daily
    basis.  They adjust it according to his weight, age and if there is
    "leakage" of it into his pants.  He currently weighs about 37 pounds
    and is doing nicely, no leakage of oil, with 1.5 Teaspoons of oil, in
    the morning, daily.  We've tried 2 tsp which caused too many
    "accidents" and one tsp which seemed to make it too hard to eliminate.
    and we also try as much as possible to use whole grain anything we feed
    him.  
    
    I actually prefer the mineral oil over anything else, simply because it
    is natural, and not a chemical.  Also it helps things "slide" through
    without increasing the movement within the intestines, which frequently
    will cause gas and cramping.
    
    Glad to discuss this off line, if it's getting to detailed.
    Lyn

    Ah, 'scuse me but I think there may be a slight misconception her.
    
    Mineral oil isn't  "natural".  Mineral oil is refined from petroleum.  
    It's used as a laxitive because most of it isn't absorbed through the
    intestines and stomach, so it "slides" through the bowel.
    
    
    Sue.

Re .8 & .9

Not to mention the fact that Natural does not equate to Good for you.

Belladonna is natural ... it'll kill you.
Digitalis is natural ... it'll do the same
Sugar cane is natural ... it'll rot your teeth just like sugar
Toadstools and mushrooms are natural ... and many will send you on a short
                                            trip down memory lane.
Tobacco is natural ... whether you chew it or smoke it, you are a) poisoned
                         and b) likely to cancer.

This idea that natural is good really has got to go!

Stuart

    
    Not trying to start a rathole on "natural" here.  The mineral oil may
    be a refined product, but it's still USP (US Pharmeceutical Pure),
    which means they are pure enough for human consumption, that's all! 
    Colace, and many other products with names much too long to even
    attempt to pronounce are still *chemical* products, they were after all
    born out of testing lab somewhere wern't they?
    
    Since THREE of his specialists have recommended the oil over commercial
    drugs, enemas or suppositories, what's the problem here?  The object of
    the game IS to have the stuff *slide through* and if it does that, then
    we've reached the object of the game, right?  So what would you like me
    to do, feed him cooking oil instead, just because that's a natural
    product?
    Lyn

    Lyn,

    	If the physicians have recommended mineral oil then by all means
    give it a try. It is certainly more gentle than some of the other
    "chemical" laxatives that work on altering the gut muscle movement.

    	There are problems with mineral oil as I am sure your physician has
    discussed with you, it can (with long term use) leach *some* vitamins
    and minerals out of the body and it can make you dependent on it for
    bowel movements (we are talking real long term use in both of these
    cases). I would think that a regular children's vit. several hours
    after the mineral oil is administered could be fine for the first case,
    the second case just takes careful observation.

    	I have been given mineral oil in the past (as a child) want some
    advice? Give it to the child over a tile or linoleum floor, (one tends
    to spit it out) also, I couldn't take the oily feel in my throat and
    ended up throwing up (another good reason for the linoleum floor). I
    had always wished that they could make a flavored mineral oil, maybe
    you could add kool-aid or dry jello to improve the taste. In any event,
    have some towels ready just in case.

    	Good luck.

    			Wendy

    Just a suggestion if you do decide to use mineral oil.  We used it
    with our second child, Tommy, for similar reasons, and we put it in
    with his juice, cranberry or apple.  It doesn't taste like anything
    but the consistency is slimy so hiding it in the juice made it more
    pleasant.  He never spit it up.  I'd make sure you didn't put too
    much juice in, however, or it might not be completely ingested.
    
    Good luck.
    
    -dorothy

Lyn,


I brought my son to see a specialist re: this bowel movement problem and
he suggested that I put Matt on a High Fiber diet ( Gradually...) and
he is to take (2) Tablespoons of mineral oil a day.  Since your son is 37 lbs
and is taking 1.5 tsp and my son is 32lbs and is supposed to take 2 tbs- which
is twice as much as what your son is taking.  I was thinking that maybe I should
start out with 1.5 and see what the results are.... The last thing he needs
is to make a big mess in his pants without helping it .... I think that would
make the problem worse.


I had my concerns about mineral oil also.... I hope this straightens it's self
out soon, so he won't have to be on it for too long.   My pharmacist's 
mentionened a product called Agoral- which is mineral oil with emulsions 
which makes it easier to ingest.  I was going to check with his specialist 
on this product.


Any feedback welcome..

Dianne

    I know the doctors Diane has seen, my son has seen them too.  The rule
    of thumb on the oil is just to use enough to make the "innerds" work,
    without the excess oil leaking out into his britches.  They usually
    start at a high dose, in your case 2 tsp and decrease it until it works
    without straining.
    
    As for the advise of what to mix it with, Thanks, but I do brag about
    this one....AJ has always taken any and all medicines without spitting
    it out, he's such a trooper!  I know adults who won't take medicine as
    well as he does!  I will sometimes mix it with his allergy medicine
    simply because that has a grape flavor.  But he just takes it in a
    matter of fact way.  And oh yes he gets a multivitamin with flouride
    with it each morning just because.....!!  We have him tested annually
    for his blood level and cholesterol, just because he has so many varied
    medical problems.  So far no major problems.....
    
    So where's this owners' manual for kid everyone keeps looking for???
    
    Lyn

    Please, I need some help with the latest development of AJ's toileting
    difficulties vs. daycare.  This morning it seems to have reached a
    head, and I found myself battling on the way in not to burst into tears
    after a confrontation with his daycare teacher, she quite young, this
    is her first job out of college, and seems to lack the understanding
    needed. I've had other problems with this center before but nothing of
    this magnitude.
    
    Last Friday I allowed AJ to wear a new flourescent hat to school.  This
    child attaches himself to hats in the same way that some kids attach
    themselves to stuffed animals or blankies.  I realized somewhere over
    the weekend that the hat hadn't come home on Friday, so I asked what
    happened.  He told me it had been taken away from him because he was
    throwing it around and hitting the other kids with it.  For this I
    agreed on the teachers' actions, althoug he was visibly upset at not
    having his favorite hat to wear.  When we dropped him off yesterday
    morning we asked the whereabouts of the hat, and the other teacher, who
    is a little older and more mature said she knew nothing of the hat.
    Meanwhle AJ is quite upset at loosing his new, favorite hat.  When we
    picked him up last night he met me and told me he had had a "bad day",
    upon looking to the (younger) teacher for a definition of this, she
    told me he had had several toileting accidents and that as a
    disciplinary action they had kept the hat until he did better.  Now
    keep in mind that this would be the same as taking a favorite stuffed
    toy or "blankie".
    
    This morning I felt quite angry at the handling of the toileting
    accidents.  Many of you know that AJ had several birth defects, and
    because of them had a colostomy until he was almost 18 months.  If you
    took is current age (4) and subtracted the 18 months of colostomy you
    end up with a kids who is really 2.5 in toileting experience.  Now
    having a child who is completely clean at 2.5 may be asking a bit much.
    The teacher told me that they've "put up" with these accidents for 9
    months, the length he's been at the Y daycare center, and that they
    just don't know what else to do.  I made it clear that I did not
    approve of their disciplining him for something that at times is out of
    his control.  I asked her if she could look upon this problem as a
    "learing disability, or a handicap", an now wonder if I used the right
    comparison.  I asked her if she'd ridicule a child in a wheelchair for
    their disability.  I asked if she could help him wipe himself after
    toileting, and she informed me that "she's a preschool teacher, and
    that's NOT in her job description", meanwhile the kid comes home each
    night sore, and thinking he's done something awful because he's now got
    a very sore butt caused by inadequate wiping.  She told me he takes
    himself to the toilet literally every half hour.  I find this
    disturbing, and feel like this whole thing may have some long lasting
    psycological effect. He's trying so hard to please his teachers and us,
    and one thoughtless comment on the part of teacher may blow everything
    we're trying to accomplish.  She also does nothing when the other
    children make cruel remarks, and even pemits such words as "AJ makes
    stinkies".(we use the term wee wees and poopie) by the kids.
     
    We still think he may not be *Physically able* to
    control some of his accidents.  The psycologist prefers not to make a
    big deal of these as he puts it "soiling incidents", he doesn't believe
    not like the term "accidents" because as he sees it they arn't. He says
    no matter what it takes we have to ignore the soiling, and praise to
    extreme amounts when he has a good day with not soiling.
    
    I tried to reach the psycologist we see periodically about this
    problem, and at luck would have it he's on vacation til next Monday.
    Not being able to talk to him directly I'd desperately appreciate some
    "parenting help" with my latest Maalox moment.
    
    Thanks!
    Lyn

    
    re: .16
    
    Lyn,
    
    What an awful way to start the morning!  
    
    I can see some validity in both of your arguments.   I sympathize with
    AJ's toileting difficulties (and the delicate situation it poses for
    him) on the one hand; and the teacher's reluctance to see toilet
    training as part of her pre-school teacher's job description on the
    other.
    
    In these times when daycares have openings (as opposed to waiting
    lists!), would it be worthwhile to investigate an alternate arrangement
    for AJ; explaining his difficulties and using the provider's reaction
    and support of the situation as a strong criteria in selection?
    
    Other than that, I would make it clear that you do not consider it
    appropriate for them to punish AJ for toileting incidents; but would
    prefer some type of positive reinforcement instead (may be tough
    when other children don't get rewards, though....maybe the rewards
    could be given at home).    I also would try not to get too upset
    about the term "stinkies", it may not be as derogatory or cruel as
    you think...just as you use "poopies" at home, other people and
    their children might use the term "stinkies".
    
    Good luck, stay positive!
    
    Carol
    

    Lyn,
    
    I feel bad for both you and your son. It does sounds like the teacher
    could benefit from a bit more experience, and also a greater 
    understanding of (and sympathy for) AJ's history and current situation.
    Would it be possible for you to schedule a conference with both the
    teacher and maybe the director, or someone at the center who has known
    you and AJ for a while? Then you could review the psychologist's
    recommendations and get the support of the more senior staff member. 
    
    I too would worry about this teacher's rigid attitude having a
    negative effect on a kid who obviously is trying to please everyone.
    Poor kid...
    
    Let us know what happens.
    
    Lucy
    

    Hi Lyn,
    	I am so outrage with anger at that teacher in AJ's daycare.  I also 
    have a son who had a medical problem which resulted in having a colostomy 
    for about a year.  I personally know toilet training kids with ANY medical
    problems especialy with the bowl and/or bladder could be longer and/or 
    harder for them to control.  
    
    	Please feel free to call me if you would be interested in the 
    information that UMass Medical Hospital has given me.  
    					Mary-Jane Garcia
    					241-4011
    					WMOIS::GARCIA
    P.S.
    	As far as that daycare or any daycare teacher being negative
    towards situations with children, (in my opinion) should GET OUT of
    that field.  Leaving your son dirty which causes him to be sore could 
    reinforce him in thinking that he can not do for himself.