Conference moira::parenting_v3

    
    Steve,
    
    Thanks for posting this!   What a fantastic article...and true,
    oh, so true!
    
    Carol

I'm finding it very difficult to find a way to phrase this that won't
insult somebody.  This is rev. 6 and I hope it makes the grade.

Some of us have not, even with our third wonderful child, experienced
motherhood as a holy calling.  It's fun, I love seeing my children 
growing up and getting to know the people they are and will become, 
and often their needs have to come first, but putting my life  
on the back burner simply hasn't happened.   I occasionally worry that
a particular accident might have been my child, when it's a bike accident 
that happened on a road my kid bikes on, but I would hardly describe it
as a raw emotional wound.  The joy and exhileration are there, but not
the only joy or the only exhileration in my life.  I am still important
to myself, and I as an individual will still be here [I hope!] long after 
the children have grown up and gone to their own lives. 

--bonnie

    The article relates to fatherhood too ... 
    
    Bonnie has an excellent point ...  and one that I think really should
    be addressed by a lot of people who bring up children.  They throw
    themselves into child-rearing so whole heartedly and so completely
    that they forget to look after themselves and their own interests.
    
    This complete giving of self tends to deny relationships with others
    that are very important during the child rearing years and later, after
    the children have left home.  You hear of so many parents who, after
    the children leave home, are totally devestated ... they are lost ...
    their raison d'etre has gone and their life almost dies.  For others
    they cannot let go of their children, holding on to them even in
    their adult lives.  For others, if the child fails at something, the
    parents feel they have failed.  For still others, the slightest family
    crisis causes problems like depression.
    
    Having a life of one's own, in which you, the parent, involve yourself
    in other things not only help avoid these problems, but is advantageous
    for the children, because it can to broaden their interests and shows
    them that they can live without their parents and when the time comes
    can smooth over that transition out of the family nest.
    
    Parenthood certainly is wonderful, but I do read (not necessarily here)
    a lot of romantic notions attributed to child-rearing, that while I
    might feel to some extent (I do have an active sense of romance and
    am not just a cold logical thinker ... really:-)!) these notions, I do
    not let myself feel quite so overwhelmed by them as I've noticed
    others do.  I look at some of the publications of some organisations,
    like La Leche League, and I see people go way over the top with some
    fantasy and romantic notions of parenting.  (With a colicky first
    baby you are brought down to ground zero in a hurry!  Your survival
    battles your baby's survival).
    
    I wouldn't have missed being a parent for all the world, and I imagine
    from Bonnie's writings that she wouldn't either in retrospect, but
    there is more to life than parenting and there is more to parenting
    than just parenting (work that one out :-) !!!
    
    Stuart

This is a meaty topic.

When I read the article, tears came to my eyes.  I thought, personally, it 
was slightly overkill, but I have definitely felt every emotion it wrote 
about.

As to the replies about putting your life on the back burner because of your 
child, I have these thoughts.

My first "instinct" in every situation now is to consider my child first.  Or
maybe instead of "instinct" it's "emotion" (my emotions are deeper and more 
easily triggered now than before I had Michelle).  But after that first 
millisecond (or sometimes longer), logic and intelligence kick in and the 
result may not be that my child comes first.  I think the article was
referring to the initial "instinct" or "emotion".  This happens to me a lot 
and it amazes me how much she is not only in my thoughts, but almost always 
"first" in my thoughts.

Kyra

    I think you can have both .... I can certainly relate to the emotions
    and views in the article, but I don't consider my life completely lost
    to my children.  My mother was like that, and now her kids ages average
    in their 30's, and she's completely lost - still - as well as trying to
    run our lives still.
    
    My children come foremost a lot of the times, but there's certainly
    times when I'd just rather be without them.  It's no secret that
    sometimes they get on my nerves, and they're also free to express the
    fact that sometimes WE get on THEIR nerves!  I have my life, they have
    their life, and a lot of times they both cross.  And if they don't,
    well that's okay too.
    

re: .4

Kyra, based on your insight I went back and reread the article.  I see
what you mean about the distinction between the first emotion and the 
later behavior -- the writer is exaggerating that initial emotion quite
a lot, but I suppose I'll forgive things like "becoming a mother will  
leave an emotional wound so raw that she will be forever vulnerable" as
an exaggeration for "being a parent leaves you more open to emotional
hurt than you were before."

But even allowing for exaggeration as a rhetorical technique, there
were a couple of assertions that really bothered me.   

>she will be professionally derailed by motherhood. <example>

I think this is probably the most dangerous exaggeration because it cuts 
both ways:  it implies that a working woman's mind is not going to be 
wholly on her job, and at the same time suggests that a woman who does 
not experience bouts of worry for her children is a less-good mother. 
Yes, I worry more than I used to about my life outside my job -- but then
before the kids came along, I didn't have a whole lot other than my job
to worry about.  It hasn't impaired my ability to concentrate, and 
while I've had fits of worry it's never been more than could be calmed 
by a phone call.  It's never impaired my ability to concentrate or kept
me from enjoying travel.  Does this make me a bad mother?  No, I don't
think so.  I think it just means that I react differently in some 
situations. 

>  That her life, now so important, will be of less
>    value to her  once she has a child.  That she would give it up in a
>    moment to save her  offspring, but will also begin to hope for more
>    years -- not to accomplish  her own dreams, but to watch her child
>    accomplish his.

Again, this very factual presentation of the author's own reaction as 
a universal characteristic of motherhood really gripes me.  She sets it
up as though it isn't possible for a woman to be a mother and not feel 
this way.  I want my children to accomplish their goals and I want to 
see them accomplish their goals and share in their triumphs, but their
goals and triumphs are their responsibility in the end, and mine are my
own responsibility.  I have dreams of my own that I want to accomplish
before I die, and many of those dreams have nothing to do with either 
the biological accident of motherhood or the emotional condition of
raising children. 

--bonnie

    RE: The basenote-Very nice.  Alot of the note relates to the way a
    Father feels as well.  I don't mind putting my life on hold for my
    children.  Having a child changed my life forever, I am more conscious
    of the future, wanting the world to be a better place for my children
    as adults and my grandchildren.  So I don't make a million bucks, so I
    don't take that trip to the Bahamas, so I don't heve that Mercedes, so
    I don't get ahead as much as the person whose been here til 7:00 and
    night, to me the sacrifices have been and will be worth it.  You see my
    personal measurement of success has all to do with being a good Christian 
    and family man.  If that's all that anyone can say about me when I start
    pushing up daisies then that will be fine with me.  Remember this is just 
    me.  The reason I've kind of gone on like this is because there are people 
    of different ideals out there, and not one right for everyone.  The author 
    of the article had nothing to go by but their experience and that is what 
    they wrote about.
    
    Peace,
    
    Mike      

    There are priorities in life, and my job apart from enjoying it
    and ensuring that it will continue to provide a roof over our
    heads and feed my children has a very low priority in my life.
    My family and my self have far higher priorities.
    
    Yes, having children did change my lifestyle, but not my life.
    Plans for my life included such a lifestyle change when I had the
    children I hoped for, and I was not blind to it.
    
    I guess maybe I'm sufficiently analytical that I found the romantic
    and emotional thought of that article a little unrealistic.  I don't
    let emotion and romantic thought drive my life ... although I do enjoy
    them; just like I work to live, I don't live to work!
    
    Stuart
    
    

    Sitting here with 11 weeks to go before my first is born, I welcomed
    the replies which said "hey wait a minute, that's not always the case"
    because my reponse after reading that article was: "What have I gotten
    myself into"
    
    I agree that any statement such as "Every woman feels...", "Every man
    feels...", "Every mother feels...", "Every father feels..." is
    dangerous.  The comment about a womans career absolutely being derailed
    is something alot of people have been fighting a long hard fight to
    overcome.  What about choice??
    
    BTW -- I'm thrilled at the prospect of having a baby, and am
    contemplating seriously derailing my career (for awhile) by choice to
    spend time with this baby.
    
    I hope it is not naive to think that I can become a parent, love this
    child, reprioritize my life, etc. without changing my ENTIRE
    personality and life FOREVER.

    The article was written by a mother about motherhood, but I don't think
    it described a single emotion that I haven't felt as a father.
    
    Bonnie, I understand your viewpoint and I don't believe it in any way
    makes you a bad parent.  But I can't agree with you.  Being a dad is by
    far the most important thing I've ever done or will do in my life;
    everything else literally pales by comparison.  My wife feels the same
    way about her job as a mother.
    
    As far as derailing one's career ... well, I think that depends not
    only on the parent's attitude but also on the kind of job the person
    has.  My wife's career would most definitely have been derailed had she
    not chosen to leave Digital.  She didn't have a 9-to-5 office job that
    she could leave every day at a set time to pick up a child at daycare. 
    She traveled a lot (I really mean a *lot* at times), and when she was
    getting a proposal out to her customer, 70-80 hour weeks and weekends
    were the norm.  Either her job at Digital or her job as a mother would
    have suffered; there was no way around it.  And Pat and I both knew
    which one it would be -- hence my statement that in her case her career
    would definitely have been derailed.
    
    Just MHO,
    Steve

    Picking up on another reply's mention of choice - in our family,
    my husband and I were equally affected by becoming parents, and *he*
    was the one to choose to derail his career. He has worked part-time
    for the last three years by choice. I too have cut back my hours, 
    but I don't think it has derailed me nearly as much. 
    
    One point the author raised that I liked was how becoming parents
    can bring you closer together as mates. Along with the stress comes
    a new kind of bond as a couple, we've found. I really hadn't expected
    that.
    
    Lucy
    

Perhaps I wasn't clear, from being too wordy or something.

It's not that the author of .0 says anything that isn't true for many people.
Probably everyone has felt some of what she talks about some of the time.
I feel that way some of the time.

But .0 says repeatedly in so many words that this is the only way
to feel, and that this is how other mothers WILL feel.  She says it 
always happens that way.

But it isn't always that way, and on a night when you've burned the 
dinner because the baby's been screaming since 2:00 and you've still got
a pile of dirty diapers to clean up, you are NOT going to feel romantic.

--bonnie

>    
>    One point the author raised that I liked was how becoming parents
>    can bring you closer together as mates. Along with the stress comes
>    a new kind of bond as a couple, we've found. I really hadn't expected
>    that.
>    

What it neglects to say is how children can drive a wedge between parents ...
from the mundane ... "Who's turn is it to change the pants?"
to the more serious  "You don't care about me any more ... just that **** baby"
and how sometimes that wedge is SO big that the next stop is divorce court.

There were times when I definitely did not feel closer to my wife after
having kids ... I do now, but there were times .......

Stuart

    
    All I know is that the good times (in our case) far overshadow the bad
    times.  When I look back at my parenting time so far, it is a very
    positive experience.  The negative does not even come into the picture.  
    Maybe it's a state of mind.
    
    Peace,
    
    Mike

    Oh true Mike, but the brain has a WONDERFUL way of diminishing and
    almost denying the bad things that happen in one's life.  You only
    have to look at a recovered depressive to see that.  If we carried
    all the negative in our life in the same way that we think we carr the
    positive, I think we'd all be in mental hospitals!
    
    Stuart
    

    Agreed Stuart.  All I am saying is that if having children wasn't a
    mostly positive and very rewarding experience, the human race wold have
    been gone long ago.  
    
    
    Peace,
    
    Mike

    In reading this article, remember it is a piece describing the "raw"
    emotion of being a mother.  I think few of us go through life acting on
    our "raw" emotions; we temper them with common sense and the value of
    our experiences in life.  When I read the article, I could identify
    with every one of the emotions described there.  But I know that my
    reaction to motherhood has been tempered in a very real way with common
    sense and the practical necessitiy of living through each day.
    
    As far as having your career derailed - I could identify with .10 's
    description of his wife's career.  My carrer was derailed tremendously
    by motherhood combined with the circumstances of my life.  My job would
    have required a tremendous amount of travel.  Since my husband's job
    required travel, we have four children and no close parents to rely
    upon, something had to give.  Result: new job requiring less travel. 
    Things like this happen that you cannot always anticipate, and that you
    may not be able to cope with in any other way than changing your job
    goals.
    
    As for change in the relationship of husband and wife - parenthood has
    its ups and downs! Yes, there's tenderness and love when you see your
    husband playing with the baby.  But there's also resentment when you've
    gotten up for the third time with a sick or nursing child at night
    while your husband snores peacefully away! 8*}
    
    Yes, motherhood changed me.  Before I became a mother, I had only
    myself to worry about, care for, plan for and "spoil".  Now, I have
    four little munchkins, and that in itself means less time to care for
    myself, devote to myself and my needs.  Because they demand it.
    

    re .12, Bonnie
    
    I didn't read it that way at all - .0 didn't seem to suggest that this
    is the only way to feel.  I felt that the point of it was an attempt to
    point out that parenthood may invoke feelings that can't be described
    to another person before they experience them. Feelings are one thing -
    behaviors and/or feelings of still being an individual are something
    different and distinct.