Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Mel -
    
    Don't have any suggestions as to the "pack-rat", but if its any 
    consolation, newborns don't take up a lot of room!   Your baby 
    doesn't really need a room of its own for several months.  We have
    several friends who have kept their infants in a cradle or bassinet 
    in their bedroom until the baby outgrew the cradle (~3 months or so).
    
    Then again, you could always tell your mom that SHE won't have a
    room - you'll use HERS for the nursery - when she gets back from
    Florida!
    
    Good luck,
    Carol

    It sounds like your mother's collection is very important to her.  This
    idea may well take lots of time, but may be worth a shot.  Could you
    sort through the things *with* her, a chunk at a time?  If that doesn't
    work, can the things be stored elsewhere?
    
    My father is in the process of going through stuff that hasn't been
    sorted in *years*.  It's not easy, especially when the things are full
    of memories.  What may appear as junk to you is a link to the past for
    your mother.
    
    Go gently,
    Judi
    

    Mel,
    
    You could ask her to at least get started on emptying the room out
    before she leaves and then continue when she returns. Is your bedroom
    big enough for your baby to bunk in with you untill the room is
    finished? That way you can work on the room after the baby arives.
    I know a few people who have done this, and have had no problems.
    Besides it will give you something to do while your out of work.
    I wish I had waited till after my daughter was born, we did our nursery
    when i was 4 months pregnant, and I was so bored on maternity leave
    with nothing to do all day when the baby slept! Also, looking at that
    beautiful room with no baby in it for 5+ months is so depressing
    (especially when your overdue!)
    
    Just a suggestion.
    Good luck
    Sandy   

    believe me, we've thought about almost all of your replies already.....
    
    .1;  We can have the baby stay in our room for a while (actually, we
    planned on having the baby in our room in a bassinette for a few weeks
    to begin with anyway), mom's room is out of the question, she's managed
    to fill her room so much hat at night she has to take all the "stuff"
    off her bed to sleep, and put in back on her bed in the morning so she
    can walk in & out of her room during the day!  The room is at least 12
    X 13!!
    
    .2;  We thought of storing this stuff elsewhere, but we have no more
    room left on our property and the only solution would be to rent
    storage space which she refuses to pay for, and we don't have the $$$. 
    We understand the memories factor and valuableness of "some" of this
    stuff, but really it's mostly JUNK! Not just to us, but to anyone.  I
    mean we're talking broken appliances that are ancient to begin with,
    magazines that are dated 1930's and up (Good Housekeeping, etc) old
    stained and/or ripped clothes (and we already have enough rags), I
    guess I could go on and on.
    
    .3;  You have a point there, but what concerns me about waiting till
    after the baby is the fact that I will already be exhausted, since I
    plan to nurse and trying to decorate, carpet and have electricity
    installed during caring for my first child seems like a hopeless case. 
    What hurts is that, it looks like thats where we're headed, like it OR
    not!  My husband works 60 hours a week and goes to college 2 nights
    during the week, so basically it'll be just me & mom decorating.
    
    Keep 'em coming,
    
    Mel

    
    The most obvious suggestion would be to sacrifice the guest room
    for the nursery then.   How often do you use it anyways?  Does
    your living room or family room have a pull-out sofa that you 
    could use for guests if necessary (or could you get one?)?
    
    carol

    re .4
    
    Another idea...if you got your mother involved with the decorating
    plans, do you think that would work?  Of *course* you'd have to measure
    the room, to make sure that everything fits before you start... 
    Perhaps if she feels part of the planning it will spur her onto sorting
    out the stuff.
    
    Sounds like there's something else going on since your mother appears
    to be saving *everything*.  Since your plans are to buy "her" house,
    will she be staying with you after the house is sold?
    
    I hope that you're able to find a solution that works all around.
    
    
    Judi
    

    
    
    	Mel...
    
    	Be very careful on what you consider to be "junk."  Those
    	magazines could bring in some bucks for various antique
    	collectors, or mere collectors in general.
    
    	As an example, after my Grandmother died and my uncle
    	decided to sell the house and move to Minnesota, my
    	mother, myself and he went through and decided to "clean"
    	it out.  
    
    	Like you, there was TONS and TONS and TONS of what we
    	deemed junk.  My grandmother had drawers FULL of pencils.
    	Pencils where there was nothing left to write with but
    	"the eraser was still good." !!! 
    
    	Anyway... as it turns out, alot of that old "junk" was
    	worth money.  Maybe not by itself, but when you started to	
    	add it all up, it came to some serious cash.
    
    	So... depending on your mother's view of money, you might
    	be able to fandangle her into cleaning by saying "this
    	room could be worth some money.  Why don't we go through
    	and sort/clean it and see what we come up with."  
    	(BTW... the person who came to give estimates on some of
    	the junk valued old magazines at $50 and up for complete
    	series)
    
    	OR.... you could just give ultimatums, which isn't always
    	pleasant, but could get the job done.  "If you don't start
    	to clean in here, I'M going to and then I might throw away
    	something you want..."
    
    	Hope it helps...
    	/Kim

    
    re: .6    i don't know that there is "something else going on".
    some people just can't throw anything away....i know, i married
    one!   for what its worth, the 1930's magazines may have some
    antique value...who knows?
    

	Only you can say if this will work.  It depends on the personalties 
involved.  

	We replaced our speakers with newer better ones.  The old ones would 
have needed some work for anyone to use them.  After 2-3 months of bumping my 
shins on them interspersed with "Gary, you should really do something about 
those speakers...." , I finally told him, "If you have not done something with 
those speakers before the next trash day, I will toss them.  I don't care what
you do with them, but if they are still in the dining room next Monday morning,
I'm taking them out to the trash pick up on my way out."  

	He had a week to do it, nothing was done.  I trashed 'em.  He wasn't
upset cause I'd given him a full week's warning.  He didn't really want them,
he just can't bring himself to throw away anything. 

	Obviously, with this situation, you'd want to give her more time than 
a week. :-) If I were you, I'd set the deadline to be before she leaves on her 
trip.  If she makes a good faith effort, but doesn't quite make it you can 
always cut her some slack. :-)  

	Gary is someone who knows the right thing to do but sometimes needs a
kick in the butt to get going.  If your mom is like that, you might try this. 
However, if throwing something away is going to cause recriminations for years 
to come, maybe you'd better not.... Only you can say.

Tracey
 

    Well, we thought about the guestroom solution, and, 2 reasons why we
    didn't like that idea, one is that when the baby comes my hus=bands
    family will be coming to visit from the westcoast, and will be visiting
    for at least 1 and a half weeks.  The other is that there is 2 twin
    beds, a huge bookshlef, tv/vcr combo and stereo and workout equipment
    that we don't have room for in any other rooms if we wanted to make it
    a nursery.  So basically it stays a guestroom. 
    
    Next, my Mom will be the "main" decorator for this nursery since she's
    the wallpapering expert in the house, and yes she will be living with
    us half the time after we buy the house.  Florida in winter and cape
    cod in summer, our house is the aternative for weekends and holidays
    etc.
    
    and lastly, this stuff that MAY be valuable should've been looked over
    long before now, she's had since Aug 22nd to get on the ball, needless
    to say, if we were'nt renting right now, she'd have no choice but to
    sell to a perfect stranger or starngers, and the whole house woulde've
    had to be emptied by NOW!  We have talked to her about ultimatums etc
    and even last year I rented a dumpster for 2 weeks and filled it twice
    with stuff/JUNK when she left for Florida and We had no room to my
    husband in to the house around the time of the wedding!  So that's why
    we have been forbidden to touch ANYTHINg in any of the rooms!  We'd be
    out on the streets if we ever did that again.  
    
    We've even thought about moving, but being 5 1/2 months pregnant w/no
    money for 1st/last & security deposit, not to mention we have a dog and
    a cat.....we really don't want to think about moving at this point. 
    Besides we've put ALOT of money into renovating this house already. 
    We've done the kitchen, family room and our bedroom.  Big expenses past
    and to come...
    
    Mel

    re .8
    
    (Mel, my responses are based on what I've read so far and my own
    personal experiences.)
    
    The reason I mentioned that there *might* be something else going on
    was Mel's description of her mother's room.  If someone has so much
    clutter that they can't make it to the door without tripping over
    something, there's a problem.  The solution ranges from building some
    bookshelves and cabinets to renting a dumpster, but that's for the
    individuals involved to decide.
    
    Everyone has a varying tolerance for clutter; some can live with it,
    some can't.
    
    Your mileage may vary,
    Judi

    re .11
    
    Has she always been a pack rat?   Well, Mel is the really the one to
    answer this question...but if she has 2-3 rooms filled to the brim
    with "junk" and some of it is dated 1930, what do you think?
    
    :-)  :-)  :-)  Like I said, I think some people are born this way!
    
    carol  

    She was always keeping/savings various things/stuff....BUT not this
    bad.  It's gotten worse over the past 10 years.  I can remember the
    house being soooo immaculate while I was growing up, but now, forget
    it!  I can't stand all this clutter, it's more or less a fire hazard
    situation!
    
    she's even gone so far as to bring home used furniture (that needs
    re-upholsterring), old books, appliances, even magazines from the swap
    center at one of the cape cod city dumps (she has a house down there also)!!
    
    I agree w/the other noter, I think there's a problem, but trying to
    cope and trying to help find a cure are 2 very difficult tasks let me
    tell you!  Even my brother (who is married and out of the house for 12
    years or so) can see the problem when he visits!  But WHAT TO DO?
    
    Mel

   Well, just a couple of comments.... 
   
   Don't be too hard on her for missing the Aug date - I mean,  its
   hard to turn around a habit that has apparently been developing for
   years, especially in a few months.
   
   You mentioned that she has a place on the cape - how about
   arranging to have some of the stuff moved to her place down there?

   Good luck,
   
   - Tom

    Tom,
    
    She's already managed to FILL a brand new never used garage and her
    dining room is so full you can't even walk into it!  She has to eat on
    snack tables in the living room when she goes down there.  The house is
    small enough empty, it's even sm,aller now that it's full of ____!!!
    
    Like I said, she brings stuff back from the city dump!!  it's awefull!
    
    Mel

    Mel,
    
    Is there a friend of hers that you could talk to who would be willing
    to talk with your mother?  Maybe if she hears it from a friend that she 
    trusts she would listen more readily.
    
    
    Good luck,
    Judi
    

    
    Hmm, I seem to remember a segment on 20/20 or one of those type shows
    about people who hourd things and can't seem to throw ANYthing out.
    If the situation is truly that bad, it could be related to an anxiety
    type disorder called Obsessive/Compulsive disorder.  This disorder is
    due to a chemical imbalance in the body which would make the person
    go through an "anxiety attack" at the thought or action of throwing
    something out.
    
    Now, I don't know if this is the case with your mother, it may be due
    to being a proscratinator or just the "normal" case of people who have
    a hard time throwing things out "just in case" they need them; but if
    she MUST keep everything and keeping things takes up a great deal of
    her time and energy, this might be something to look into.  If she
    doesn't feel its a problem though, I doubt you will get her to seek
    help and change.
    
    In my opinion, given the amount of time you have left and the
    unlikelihood of her changing habits that have gone on for years,
    I would suggest making some compromise on the issue of storing the
    stuff (perhaps go 50-50 on paying for storage).  Or didn't you say you
    have 2 unfinished rooms?  Perhaps they can be looked into for either
    storing the stuff or redoing for the nursery (I know you said finances
    are tight, but maybe you could do some low cost remodelling to make 
    them liveable)
    
    Good luck.
    
    Sue

    May I suggest EAP?  They might have some professional suggestions.
    perhaps Mom in her way is demonstrating who really owns the house?
    
    Part of the enjoyment of this time in your pregnancy is the planning of
    the nursery and getting it ready.  Painting after the birth isn't too
    great for the baby.  Plus, even if the baby shares your room for a few
    months after birth [I don't recomend *habit*], you need a place for the
    baby 'things', changing table, toys, diapers, etc.
    
    Having a baby is enough stress, you really don't need this.  How about
    a real heart to heart talk with mom to find out what the real issue is,
    if she clams 'none', then suggest that you both work an hour [or other]
    a day until the room is done/?
    or EAP
    have fun
    ed
    

    Judi,
    
    That's a good idea!!!  However, if I so much a whispered a word of this
    to her friends, I'd be out and looking!!!  She'd litterally disown
    me/us!  I wish it were that easy, or it would be done.
    
    Sue,
    
    the 2 unfinished rooms have been used for storage since my parents
    owned the house 30 yrs ago!  They're even worse full that her bedroom
    or the room we'd like for the nursery!  
    
    My brother has mentioned to her about going for counseling/help about
    this problem she has (gathering others trash, not throwing anything
    away etc).  We're just having an aweful time dealing with it now that
    we've occupied every nook & cranny in the house!  Like I stated
    perviously, If we were'nt renting from her, then she would've had to
    put the house up for sale last year!  Which means it would be cleaned
    out longggggggg before now  :^(
    
    Thanks for the understanding everyone
    
    Mel :^)

    I recommend EAP too . . . they'll at least help you cope.  
    Perhaps family counselling might be in order.  It sounds like
    there are a lot of unresolved issues going on -- issues of
    control, mostly.  

    And a doctor for your mother.  Not a counsellor, a medical doctor. 
    Behavior changes, including exaggerations of previous behavior,
    can often indicate an underlying medical problem -- blood pressure
    problems, diabetes, any of a dozen other diseases.  
    
    Speaking only for myself here, I think I would rather move out on
    my own, even if it is an incredible financial struggle, than
    continue this kind of constant rubbing against each other.  Let
    her sell the house to a stranger.  
    
    Maybe you could even sell those old magazines for enough to make
    the security deposit :)
    
    --bonnie

    I think your hands are tied.  I'd move out, it may be the only way to
    perserve the relationship.  Maybe try to work out a cash settlement
    with her for the improvements which you have put into the house.  If
    she won't do that then keep all your reciepts and you will be able to
    recoup your losses when the house is sold.  It seems to me that you are
    in a no win situation.  We had some dealings with buying a house from
    my parents.  It went fairly smooth, but there were some snags.  They
    think they gave us a real good deal on the house, we paid what homes
    were selling for about six months previously less 5% commission.  The
    problem was that they had rented the house to a friend who waas on hard
    times and didn't take care of the house at all, therefore we had to
    paint the whole house, as well as replace all the carpets.  In
    retrospect we wish that we had bought a house elsewhere that fit our
    needs (this one is a little small).  Anyway, I'd get out and get a
    house of my own.
    
    Peace,
    
    Mike

    
    Ditto, Mike (.21) !!!!
    
    Dottie
    

    Can you motivate her with the other side of the story - that you will
    be bringing home the baby? How involved/interested in the pregnancy is
    she? Another note mentioned getting her involved - can you really
    invlove her and she will draw the conclusion about the room by herself?
    Does she have some problems about seeing the room done in advance (will
    everything go OK? - I know some people who do wait, just to see
    everything thru). Can you try to calm any fears there?
    Just some thoughts I had -
    Regards
    Jeff

    Taken from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders:

    301.40 Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder

    A pervasive pattern of perfectionism and inflexibility, beginning by
    early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated 
    by at least *five* of the following:

    (1)	Perfectionism that interferes with task completion, e.g.,
    	inability to complete a project because own overly strict
    	standards are not met.
    (2)	Preoccupation with details, rules, lists, order. organization,
    	or schedules to the extent that the major point of the activity
    	is lost.
    (3)	Unreasonable insistence that others submit to exactly his or her
    	way of doing things, *or* unreasonable reluctance to allow 
    	others to do things because of the conviction that they will
    	not do them correctly.
    (4) Excessive devotion to work and productivity to the exclusion of
    	leisure activities and friendships (not accounted for by obvious 
    	economic necessity).
    (5) Indecisiveness: decision making is either avoided, postponed,
    	or protracted, e.g., the person cannot get assignments done
    	on time because of ruminating about priorities (do not include
    	if indecisiveness is due to excessive need for advice or
    	reassurance from others).
    (6) Overconscientiousness, scrupulousness, and inflexibility about
    	matters of morality, ethics, or values (not accounted for by
    	cultural or religious identification).
    (7) Restricted expression of affection.
    (8) Lack of generosity in giving time, money, or gifts when no 
    	personal gain is likely to result.
    (9) Inability to discard worn-out or worthless objects even when 
    	they have no sentimental value.

    

    I've never had an experience like this, but here are my ideas.
    
    If I were you I'd talk to EAP and quietly investigate the option of
    moving out. NOW. The stress must be awful! It sounds like you can't reason
    with your mom and live in fear of being either "evicted" or "disowned"
    for no good reason. I can't imagine going on like that. I'm sure you
    want to avoid a family rift and the financial loss of moving out but
    you've got to draw the line. I get the impression the "pack-rat" issue
    is just the tip of the iceberg. If you "give in" and put the baby in
    your own room instead of in the nursery then you're just postponing the
    inevitable conflict. Unless you're going to own this house in the next
    6 months and can do what you want with any junk left therein.
    
    If you're in New England where the real estate market is currently
    in a major slump you may be able to negotiate the rent or security deposit 
    with a landlord. Really! I know people who did just that in Nashua, NH. 
    If you have a steady income and good references then I think you may find 
    a place of your own isn't impossible to afford. I know the financial
    loss is awful and you may have to give up one or both of your pets, but 
    how much are you willing to pay for happiness? You're obviously unhappy 
    where you are. Spend the next week or 2 looking at want ads and apartments 
    and try to line something up. Also, could you shack up with friends or 
    family for a few weeks if needed while you looked and saved up for a place? 
    Some hotels offer weekly or monthly rentals which could give you a 
    temporary place to live (no deposit, etc).
    
    Plan A
    ------
    After you've done some research and found an affordable place to go
    (temporary or otherwise) then I'd take action at home. Tell mom you
    want to start working on the nursery before she leaves for Florida
    because you need her help. Ask her to please begin sorting things the
    following weekend. If she refuses or procrastinates I'd say, "Mom, we 
    really can't postpone this any longer. These things mean a lot to you and 
    I don't want you to have to rush thru the sorting process but we _have_
    to start working on the nursery. Let's begin on Saturday. Promise?". 
    
    If that fails then I'd say, "Mom, I'm really worried and depressed
    about this. I was  looking forward to us living together after the baby
    comes and having you  around to help, but I feel like you really don't
    want us here because in 5 months you haven't made any moves to clean
    out the nursery. I know  it's a lot of work and it's hard for you, but
    I'm starting to feel as  though your grandchild and I don't matter as
    much to you as the belongings  you have stored in there!"
    
    If it escalates into an argument then I'd try to stay calm but I'd say,
    "Look, Mom, if you don't want to convert this room to a nursery then you 
    must not want us to stay here. We'll make plans to move out so that we can 
    have a place for our baby." 
    
    My hope would be that when she hears how unhappy and unwanted you feel
    that she will come to her senses about this. If she justs gets
    belligerent (which it sounds like she might do from your previous 
    descriptions) then I'd drop it and tell her you'll make plans to move
    out. You've got something lined up. Then you can either stay there and
    hope she starts sorting before she moves to Florida or leave now. I'd leave.
    
    Plan B
    ------
    If she agrees to start sorting and seems to just need a push to stop 
    procrastinating, you might try the following:
    
    What needs to be done first in the room? Electrical work, painting? (I
    forget). Buy whatever you need to start the work (keeping the
    receipts!) so mom knows you mean  business, and tell her on say,
    Saturday morning, that next weekend you are  going to start work on the
    room. Pick a day when you _know_ she doesn't have any other plans. If
    you possibly can, pick a time when your husband is there too. I'd say
    something like, "Let's get started sorting thru things and go out to
    dinner later.  [Husband] will help with any lifting you want done."
    
    Then go into the future nursery and pick  up some item and ask mom what
    she wants to do with it. Maybe make 3 piles  in the hall: Throw away,
    Sell and Keep or something like that. (You may want to make up "signs"
    for the 3 piles in advance and tack them up). Ask mom which pile to put
    that item in. I'd start real gently, pick something you know she
    treasures and that you feel has real value and say that you think this
    one is a real keeper. Try to be helpful. If she  yells at you for
    touching the stuff or refuses to do it now say calmly,  "Mom, we can't
    put this off any longer. I'm too far along. We need to get started now."
    
    Then, taking another item in hand, say, "This looks like something you
    could sell, what do you think?". If she still fights you on it, then
    I'd go back to Plan A, voice your heartfelt feelings and be ready to
    move out if she doesn't start sorting. 
    
    The only other thing I can think of is if you stay and she hasn't
    done anything before she goes to Florida then I'd rent a  storage unit
    while she's away and move everything there. But before she returns I'd
    again line up a place to go in case she disowns you and kicks you out.
    (She might not since you didn't dispose of her stuff, you just moved it). 
    
    Good luck! I'll be interested to hear what EAP thinks if you consult them. 	
    
    	Sue

   re .13
   
   I think you may have hit the nail on the head there. Have a friend of your
   Husband visit. Tell her that he works for the fire Brigade in a
   neighbouring town. (you may also consider goign to your local fire station
   and explaining the situation and getting them involved). Get him to come
   aroud for dinner or a visit or some such, and then express serious concern
   to here about the dangerous fire hazard... 
   
   Seriously, a friend of mine, who keeps back issues of Scifi magazines was
   threatened with eviction, AND, warned that his homeowners insurance would
   be canceled because of the fire hazard. (and these were newish magazines,
   neatly packed in about a dozen cartons.) 
   
   I would tend to go more for getting the word of someone official in the
   matter as she sounds like she switches off to whatever you are saying...
   
   we went through a similar scenario with my Grandmother who passed away a
   couple of years ago, at the age of 94. She told my mother (her Daughter in
   law, who she never really got on with) about a box with some money in it
   here, and another there... Anyway, the house was thoroughly cleaned, and
   amongst things like check stubs from 1940, we found over two dozen bank
   books, and several "tins of money" which came to several ten's of thousands
   of dollars. There were also Dishes that looked like they hadn't seen soap
   in 20 years. A run through a dishwasher, and we had some very impressive
   looking period pieces. Don't get me wrong, the house was spic and span, but
   she had nooks and crannies and cupboards all over the place...
   
   q
   

    Hello Mel,
    
    I have no first hand knowledge of this sort of problem, but
    I do have a very close friend who is currently dealing with
    her mother's diagnosed obsessive/compulsive behavior. It sounds very
    much like the scenario which you described; my friend's mother
    has filled her (large) house to the brim with worthless trash.
    Old newspaper, string, tin cans, etc are stacked in each room,
    in the garage, in the attic. If you open a door to a room,
    stuff falls out onto you. The windows are completely blocked.
    You cannot get in the front door because stacks of newspaper 
    block the entrance. Only family members are allowed
    inside the house, and they must not mention that there might
    be anything unusual (to the mother or to each other.) It's a
    difficult situation.
    
    My friend told me that the problem has grown over time, again,
    as you said. I believe she said that it is only now being 
    addressed because it is impossible for the gas company to 
    get in and read the meter, and after months of pleading and threats,
    the gas company will shortly report her to the health board. If
    this happens, it is the start of a process which involves
    social services and required psychiatric attention. The mother
    continues to feel she has no problem and refuses to seek 
    help voluntarily. It is a scary scenario because it is one 
    that could lead to institutionalization, which nobody wants to see.
    
    I do not tell you this to scare you, but rather to clarify
    that, evidently,  obsessive/compulsive disorder *is* a disorder,
    and it may be misleading to think it can be dealt with through
    logic, arm-twisting, discussion, reminders, etc.   A part
    of my friend's mother's problem is denial that any problem exists.
    She has agreed for years to "clean up." But it just isn't a
    question of cleaning up; it's a problem which controls her life.
    
    The family banded together to insist that she get professional
    help; this has meant tricking her, in essence, and constant
    organizing of meetings, evaluations, insurance claims, etc
    by my friend. If I understand correctly, I believe they were
    able to (finally) get her to one meeting with a psychiatrist
    and got a real diagnosis. It has been, and continues to be,
    highly stressful for everyone concerned,
    especially for my friend as she's done all the organizing
    and confronting.
    
    I had never heard of this sort of problem before my friend
    told me about the stress of her situation. Now I realize that
    it's not all that uncommon. If you think that this
    could be your mother's problem, seek some professional
    help -- maybe not this minute, with the stress and excitement of
    a new baby on the way, but whenever you feel the time is right --
    and get lots of support for yourself. At least a professional
    could assist you in evaluating what the problem is and what
    your family needs to do. 
    
    Wishing you all the best,
    Barbara  

    I would definitely NOT do anything such as bring in the fire marshall
    or something like that.  To me, that is nothing but being decieptful
    for your own gain.  I rather see it handled more diplomatically. 
    Threats will lead to nothing but ill feelings, and that would not be
    benificial to anyone.  Try to get her to seek help, or go with the A &
    B plan as presented earlier.  Don't alienate a family member for a
    property, etc it will not be worth it in a long run.  I can guarantee
    that.
    
    Good Luck
    
    Peace,
    
    Mike

    re: .24,
    
    Jodi,  Item number 9 is the only statement that REALLY fits this
    situtation!  ALL of the other statements do not in ANY way fit "anyone
    I know"!
    
    re: .25,
    
    Good Plans!!! We have tried Plan A (unfortunately I could never part
    w/my pets, cat = 17yrs old and dog = 4 yrs old), trying to find an
    apartment which we can afford, remember I will be out of work for at
    least 3 months in which case I will be returning only part-time.  Also,
    we have tried to set dates/days etc, to start the work on a saturday or
    whichever day is convenient for her, BUT when that day arrives, she
    ALWAYS finds a reason to be out of the house for that most of the day,
    and when she FINALLY returns, she's too tired to do anything!  BOY does
    that bother us!  The electrical needs to be done first, but the
    electrician can't even get into the room to do the work!  
    
    re; .26,
    
    I have contacted the Fire prevention office in our town and the officer
    told me that they do NOT have any written literature on safety- storage
    vs. fire hazard situations etc.....I was also told by someone who had a
    similar problem w/storage that the owner of the house was given a
    citation for the house being so cluttered that it was a very dangerous
    situation.  The Fire dept gave him/her a citation for the hazard caused
    by the clutter.  However, I do not want this to happen to my mom.  I
    don't want to PUSH her, but in the same respect, I have asked her from
    week to week WHEN can she help, or even start?????  I get an answer but
    no obligations!!!  Like I sadi previously, she's had since Aug 22nd to
    just start bit by bit....now SHE'S put herself in the position to
    "hurry" for the next 5 weeks before she goes to Florida for 5 weeks.
    
    re; .27
    
    Barbara,  My mom is like your friends mom, in that she closes all the
    doors to the rooms that are PACKED (I have even gone as far as to
    de-hinge the doors to the rooms) when people come over etc. because she
    is embarassed by the mess.  She refuses to seek professional counseling
    etc.  Both my brother and I have tried to have her seek help but NO WAY
    as far as she's concerned.  
    
    My husband had one idea......is the room isn'e emptied by the time she
    leaves, then we will bring all the stuff into the dining room
    downstairs (to which there are no doors, it's a totally OPEN room in
    the middle of the house), and when she returns from her vacation, then
    she will HAVE no choice but to do something w/this stuff!!  also, take
    the door off her bedroom which is right outside the dining room and she
    won't be able to keep closing the door to hide things!  Less of a fire
    hazard, but a long way to being completely safe.....
    
    So far it looks like the best solution, IF she hasn't helped out before
    she leaves.
    
    Mel :^)  

    
    Mel,
    
    If this truly is Obsessive/Compulsive Disorder, moving her stuff into
    the dining room will probably not work.  Instead, she will just refuse
    to have people over because of the embarassment.  Also, she will
    probably be furious since you "forced" her into the situation, since
    issues of control are often associated with this disorder.
    
    I hope for the sake of everyone involved that I am wrong and this is
    not the case, but if it is, and you and she are not ready to deal with
    it, moving out would be the least stressful situation.
    
    Sue

    Frankly, it sounds to me as though your mother is non-rational on
    this topic.  If you want lots of pain, emotional turmoil and
    strife, stay in the house and try to straighten her out.  If you
    want to get on with your life, move out, despite the cost.
    
    			-John Bishop

    
    From what I hear, the rental market is very soft right now.  I'm sure
    you and your husband will be able to find an apartment that suites your
    needs and pocketbook--one that accepts animals to boot.
    
    It sounds as if you have your heart set on buying your mothers' house.
    Maybe you could tell your mother that you can't stand living in all the
    clutter anymore--and therefore, if the nursery isn't cleared out by the
    end of January, you will be moving.  However, you would still like to
    buy the house when she decides to sell--suggest the 3 of you go to a 
    lawyer to draw up a contract re: purchase price minus what you've put
    into the house, etc.
    
    This is your time to rest, relax, and plan.  If getting the nursery
    together is your 1st priority (and it was mine, when I was pregnant the
    1st time), then you need to do that.  It sounds as though either you
    and your mom are having some kind of a power struggle--or, that your
    mom really does have some kinds of "pack rat disorder."  However,
    neither of these can be solved in a day--or a week--best to state your
    desires and intentions--and then leave.
    
    Bonnie
    
    
    

    What all of don't seem to uderstand is that moving out MIGHT very well
    be the solution, but WE DON"T HAVE THE MONEY!!!!!  We are literally
    living from week to week on our bills and spending......without getting
    to exact dollar amounts, our bank account is so low that if it goes any
    lower we will have to close the account!!  SO MOVING OUT ISN'T EVEN A
    POSSIBILITY at this point.  We've had some unexpected expense come up
    in the last 2 months that we have had to deal with on-the-spot, and I
    was out of work for 2 months w/out pay (OUCH!), so that didn't help the
    savings account any.  Not to mention the fact that we spent alot of
    money already fixing the house.  Even if we were to ask mom to pay us
    back some or all of the money we invested thus far, it would be
    impossible for her to pay us right away.  She doesn't even have that
    much (which is alot) to give us.  That's one reason why we are paying
    the rate of rent that we are, because she cannot afford the homes she
    has on her own salary.  She's 61 yrs old and looking forward to
    retiring, but she can't until the house is sold.  The only money we
    have is our IRA which we refuse to touch until we put a deposit on the
    house (or any house) because of the high penalty rate involved for
    early withdrawal.
    
    SO as much as moving out looks like the BEST solution, we REALLY can't
    do it!
    
    Thanks for the input on this disorder.....Although she's a "pack-rat",
    she's really a very Loving, Sensative, and emotional woman.  We Love
    Her very much....

    Even if it is impossible on practical grounds for you to move out now, it
 seems to me imperative that you re-think your long range plans.  Sharing this
 house with your mother now is pretty intolerable.  It seems unlikely that the
 situation would change much if/when the name on the deed changes, if your
 mother still feels some claim on the place (which she surely will).  If it is
 impossible (as it may well be) to get your mother to accept medical/
 psychiatric help, your own long-range sanity depends on your moving out as
 soon as you can.  Your current focus on the narrow issue of the "nursury"
 seems almost like an avoidance mechanism, though this would be quite
 understandable, given the nature of the larger problem, and the upheaval that
 pregnancy has already brought to your lives.
 
    My parents' house had a separate "cottage" out back that was rented out. 
 For about 20 years the tenant was a woman who had this same pack-rat
 disorder.  It started out as mild eccentricity in an otherwise rational
 person, but got progressively worse, and the whole place got filled up like
 your mother's bedroom.  My parents ignored the matter as long as they could. 
 Then they avoided eviction on humanitarian grounds.  Just as health/safety
 concerns were making them conclude that intervention was manditory, the woman
 had a general-purpose nervous breakdown, from which she never really
 recovered.  She was hospitalized for awhile, and then, fortunately, was able
 to move in with some family.  She never did come back for her belongings.  My
 parents had to bring in a junk dealer to clean the place out.
 
    Of course, your mother's problem may follow a different course.  But it does
 sound as if it is serious and progressive.  For her sake and your own, you
 should get good professional advice on what is wrong with her and what might
 be done.  Some obsessive/compulsive disorders can, I believe, be quite
 effectively treated with medication.  Consulting with EAP would be a good way
 to start understanding this better.
 
 		- Bruce

    Who or What is EAP?

EAP is Employee Assistance Program.  Their job is to help employees with
their personal problems.  They do some counseling, but mostly referrals.
For your local EAP office, take a look in the DEC phone book under
Employee Assistance Program.

If you haven't already, you might try cross posting this in a couple of other 
notesfiles.

	QUARK::HUMAN_RELATIONS and
	LBDUCK::CARING_FOR_ELDERS 

come to mind.

Clay

    I want to emphasize too that EAP will point you to someone who can
    help YOU deal with YOUR feelings and such relative to your
    mother's problem, not just for your mother by herself.  Even if
    you can't do anything direct about either the mess or the money, a
    family counsellor or similar professional might be able to help
    you find ways to get the things you really want through other
    tactics. 
    
    The first few EAP visits are company-paid.  Check with your site's
    heath services people for details.
    
    People sometimes have the misconception that EAP is only for drug
    problems and finding a psychiatrist and such.  But it's not. 
    They'll refer you to a social worker to help deal with a
    short-term problem, they'll help you find a tutor if your teenager
    is having trouble in math, they'll help you locate a credit
    counsellor if you're swamped with credit card bills.  These are
    all things friends of mine have gotten through EAP.  I think they
    even provided help in locating a long-term nursing facility for
    another friend's terminally ill sister.  
    
    And I want to repeat that your mother should see a medical doctor
    for a thorough checkup before or in addition to the other help, to
    eliminate the possibility that there's a medical reason for her
    behavior.
    
    --bonnie

    I came home from work yesterday and mom called me into her room to tell
    me that she called the wallpaper place and found out that they have a
    whole book on Beatrix Potter designs (I plan on decorating in a 
    Beatrix Potter theme), anyway, this was something I already knew
    because being so excited from day one, I went to the store myself one
    day and searched through it to get ideas.  I was GLAD that she had the
    nursery situation on her mind!  Then she proceeded to ask me what (if
    anything) I wanted to keep out of that room!  I was stunned!  She
    actually brought it up FIRST before anyone else.  Usually she won't
    even discuss it even when the subject is brought up from someone else!
    
    Well, everything seemed all well and fine until ALL HELL BROKE LOOSE
    this morning, she told me that she was going away for 4 days this
    weekend!!!!!!!!  She had made plans with one of my aunts to go up north
    for a long weekend (to my aunts condo in the mountains) which is
    something they do often enough anyway, needless to say a WAR broke out! 
    She told me that she knew I'd be upset and she was hesitating telling
    me because she didn't want to upset me.  I sat there very calmly and
    asked her straight out, "Then give me a date that we can START this
    project and stick to it"!  She couldn't tell me when, she sat there
    with her head down and didn't say much.  I pointed out again that she
    was down to 4 weeks before her trip to Florida and that she hasn't even
    begun to lift a finger to clean out the room!  After some arguing and
    crying (more like balling my eyes out over this whole thing) she got on
    the phone and called my aunt to cancell out on going away this weekend. 
    I swear I was so upset, that if she hadn't cancelled, I would've had a
    nervouse breakdown!!  My husband had to take me into the family room
    and calm me down...
    
    But I'll tell you, since the episode this morning I feel so much
    relief, as if I'm glad I got it all off my shoulders and she seems to
    relize the seriousness of this WHOLE situation!
    
    BTW, Thanks to all of you who have been giving me much SUPPORT (both
    on-line and off)!
    
    Mel :^)

    Congratulations, Mel!  It sounds like you've gotten through to your
    mother.  Perhaps she needed to be pushed before she did anything.  I
    hope that all goes well and the road ahead is smooth.
    
    
    Regards,
    Judi
    

    Yes, it looks that way......  We'll see what the weekend brings
    (hopefully we'll be snowed in and she won't be able to go anywhere!)..
    
    
    Mel 

    Weel, we're on our way!!!!  She's working up-there today!
    
    Mel :^)
    
          

    Great news, Mel!  

    Once people start communicating, miracles seem to happen.  Keep us
    posted on the progress.

    Jodi-

    I actually can't believe it!  You should see all the stuff she's
    throwing away!  I mean we're talking "JUNK" here.... Anyway, she really
    made progress over the weekend.  She actually made piles of stuff to
    keep/sell/and throw away!  She also had me go through some of it w/her
    to see if it was anything I'd want to keep.  I can't believe all the
    stuff we found that we thought was "GONE" (and/or LOST).....I found
    things that I never thought I'd see again!  It's absolutely amazing!
    
    Mel :^))

    Congratulations, Mel!  I can envision that Beatrix Potter nursery....
    it'll be a beauty!
    
    carol

    CArol,
    
    If things continue to go this well through the next 2 weeks or so, I
    think I'll go to the decorating place and borrow their BEatrix Potter
    wallpaper book to get ideas at home!!!  I'm getting more excited each
    day...
    
    Mel

    Also,
    
    She called the electrician and had him come over to show her EXCACTLY
    where he needs to get into so she can have it ready for him the 1st
    week of February!  She actually set a date w/the guy!  She told him
    that that date would give her enough time to have the room painted and
    then she could wallpaper for the 10 days after he's done (before she
    leaves for Florida)!!!!!!!  Can you believe it!  There IS a God!
    
    Mel

    Hi Mel,
    
    That's great news! Sometimes it seems impossible to get through
    to someone (especially those we love!) and then it happens
    and immediate problems are taken care of. How wonderful that
    you can start concentrating on the baby again. I remember clearly
    the happiness I felt when we got our daughter's crib set up
    before she was born. I would sneak into the room and just look
    at that crib, knowing I'd soon see a baby in it...
    
    I certainly don't want to throw a wet blanket over your relief
    and happiness, but I must mention the possibility that you haven't
    seen the end to your mother's problem.  But of course, you
    know that yourself. It just worries me that you might be hoping
    all is fixed and then in a few months realize that the problem 
    still surrounds you (quite literally.) If this happens, please don't
    feel desperate about it, but remember that help does exist.
    
    In the meantime, have fun wallpapering (or sitting with your
    feet up, directing how the paper should be hung :-).
    
    All the best, Barbara
    
    P.S. By the way, I'm sure that we parenting noters all 
    realized from your notes here that your mother is, indeed,
    a wonderful person and you love her lots. 
    Matter of fact, if you didn't love her, you wouldn't
    be bothering to sort it all out to everyone's satisfaction.
    It's always a case of loving someone, but not loving their
    problem or behavior, ya know?

    BArbara,
    
    Yes you're absolutely right!  Her problem still exists, but now she's
    even talking about cleaning out the other rooms that are so full as
    well!!  
    
    She has ordered the crib, we should have it in a week!  I can just
    start to imagine the JOY I will feel when I can look into the room (As
    you did) and see the crib, knowing they'll soon be a baby in it!  Next
    week I will be orderring the wallpapaer and buying the paint for the
    woodwork (moldings etc)!  We are having 2 other furniture pieces
    professionally finished (stained) to match the crib, which is why we
    needed to order it soon.
    
    Anyway, Things are definitely on there way (literally)!  She's not only
    making an effort, but doing it at "Full-speed"!
    
    Thanks again,
    
    Mel

    It's been a couple weeks, Mel.  How's that nursery coming???
    
    carol

    Carol,
    
    Funny you should ask.....I was planning on entering a reply today
    because (get this) the electrician is there today!!!!!  I just got off
    the phone w/mom (who offered to stay home today to be there for him)
    and things are going well!  The room is 97% emptied!!!  I mean I can
    actually lift the rug/carpet off the floor at this point!  We took the
    furniture that we're planning on refinishing downstairs, the guy came
    to get them this morning, and we have the crib also!  I am orderring
    the wallpaper and buying the paint tomorrow.  I AM REALLY EXCITED NOW!
    
    She threw away alot of stuff too!  But she has made several piles of
    things to sell/keep/or give away.  Some stuff she has just put in boxes
    to go through at a later (like when she comes back from Florida) date. 
    She's getting close to her trip, so she did what she could before she
    has to leave.  In which I am VERY grateful!  
    
    I can't believe after all these months of worrying, it all got done in
    ONE BIG RUSH!  What a way to do things, 'eh?  Actually, it didn't ALL
    get done, but the bulk of it is done.  The rest is cosmetics....
    
    Thanks for asking
    
    Mel  :^)
    

    Now, with one room down, maybe you can convince her about other
    rooms and homes ?  Make her feel good for having done it and
    then the rest hopefully will follow, making her feel even better.
    
    Good luck!
    
    

    We (my husband & I) have our fingers crossed!  But I'll tell you, our
    prayers have already been answered!
    
    I'll keep you posted on the progress until I leave for maternity.
    
    Mel

    How about flowers, or taking mom out for a dinner to show her how happy
    her actions have made you.  Just a suggestion.
    
    
    Peace,
    
    Mike

    Mike,
    
    We've done it already, we took her for dinner (and even breakfast on a
    few occasions) to show her our gratitude!  She loves to eat out.....
    
    
    Mel :^)

    Mel,
    
    How about some phone certificates so she can call you from Florida?!
    
    It's terrific that things are progressing so well.
    
    
    Congratulations!
    Judi
    

    I never heard of those, probably because we have Reach-out America on
    our phone at home and we call all over the u.s. for dirt cheap costs! 
    That makes it great for when Mom is down south!
    
    Good idea!
    
    Thanks,
    
    Mel

    Well, 
    
    Mom leaves tomorrow and the progress has gone well considerring!  We
    haven't wallpapered yet, and we won't start now till she returns from
    her trip (in the middle of MArch).  But at least we got the electrical,
    carpentry (which she had done for us), and the woodwork painted.  Now,
    while she's gone we can have the room carpeted and be ready for her to
    wallpaper when she gets back.
    
    BTW, the furniture came out excellent!!!  the man brought it to us on
    Thrusday, all 3 pieces match the crib exact!  One of the pieces was
    dated 1906!  That is the bureau w/a hour glass shaped bevelled mirror. 
    The rocking chair is about 40-50 yrs old he said.  The other piece,
    which we are using for the changing table is almost as old as the first
    piece he guessed.  I didn't realize they were so old.  But needless to
    say, they're in great shape too!
    
    Mel

    
    Well, I'd guess that Mel has had her baby by now.   Anyone know the
    details?
    
    Curious,
    Carol

    Carol,
    
    I saw in another notesfile that Mel had a baby girl on (or about)
    April 23rd.  They named her Carmen and she weighed 7lbs. 8 oz.
    Mom and baby are doing fine!
    
    Linda