Conference moira::parenting_v3

    We had friends back where we used to live whose neighbors had twin
    boys. and then 11 mos later had another set of twin boys! Imagine four
    boys under the age of one! 
    
    We've known others with close kids. Easier in some ways (often into
    same kind of stuff at the same time), harder in others (harder to carry
    two at once, still both very dependant on parents for everything,
    etc.).
    For what it's worth (I happen to believe its worth a lot), they will
    probably grow up to be very close friends. yes, the rivalry will
    probably be more intense, but so will their love for each other. That's
    what we've found with ours, who are all less than 2 years from the next
    one.
    
    --dave--

    Mine are 20 months apart and are good friends (both boys).  My older
    sister and I are 2+ yrs apart, however, my younger (5+ yrs difference) 
    sister and I are closer.  Depends on the kids, too.
    
    I always wanted two close together and then maybe AND THAT'S A BIG
    MAYBE a third much later.  We'll see.  Right now I have 2 birth boys 
    ages 5 and 3 and a foster boy age 14 months.  We do have three who get
    along incredibly well!!
    
    -sandy
    

    Sorry I can't help you with any info.., but what I want to know is if
    your going to continue to work...   I have a four month old an a 3 1/2
    and the thought of having another infant in the house in 9 months sends
    shivers up my spine.
    
    -Julie

    Oppps.... that 3 1/2 is YEARS..... not months.. ..
    
    -Julie

    Tricia,
    
    My sister's are 10.5 months apart. Their original due dates were the
    same but the second came 6 weeks early.
    
    She said it was difficult because being so close in age you needed both
    parents ALOT. It's not that infant can ride in the front of a grocery
    cart and you'd let an 11-month-old sit in the big part. She had to
    become VERY efficient with her time. She said the first year was mostly
    difficult because the oldest could not be on his own. He was learning
    to walk so you need to be holding a hand, moving him out places he
    should not be, etc and still want to pay close attention to the second.
    She said it was like having twins but there was alot of guilt because
    she felt like she ruined their identites by not being able to give
    each the individualized attention you would "normally" expect from
    having a larger age gap. 
    
    The good side...these 2 boys love each other like you cannot imagine.
    The oldest is honestly a second mother to Chris. When he asks for a
    glass of juice, he'll say "let me see if my brother wants some too".
    There were no problems when the oldest started nursery school (2
    mornings a week) and the second had no problem starting this past year
    because he had been there already the previous year and knew the
    teachers, the procedures, etc. The second is a little more emotional,
    maybe because he has had minimal time with mom and dad alone and
    demands more attention. The one thing they never did was force the
    older one to grow up faster. They realized that they had 2 very young
    children on their hands. 
    
    The second learned to talk alot sooner then any other child I have
    ever known because he was there watching a listening to the older one
    learn to speak. They didn't make the youngest play catch-up with the
    oldest. 
    
    My sister has said so many times how people insist they are twins
    (I'm 18 months younger then my sister and we always had people
    insisting we were twins) especially since they are 2 boys. I know that
    does bother them because it can get more complicated when the start
    real school and people may think that the youngest stayed back a year,
    etc. Take that as it comes but the stage must be set for seperate
    identities early on.
    
    Not to "alarm" you but do try to take it easy with this pregnancy. Your
    body has only had a minimal time to recover. My sister did have some
    complications, resulting in him being 6 weeks premature (blood
    transfusions, tubes, the whole bit). 
    
    And we're not even Irish!!!
    
    Best of luck!!
    Andrea

    My two are 15 months apart.  They are now 5 and 4 and are the best
    of friends.  (1 boy, 1 girl).  They have the usual brother/sister
    spats but, they always are there for each other.  It was tough in
    the earlier years.  You feel like you have twins while they are
    both in diapers (people sometimes have asked if they are twins).
    We used a double stroller and they were able to share a lot of toys.
    
    I think that the fact that they are so close in age has been a great
    advantage for them.
    
    Serv

    My two are 18 months apart and I can sympathize with your initial
    reaction - it really was quite a shock when I visited my doctor at
    a point when Karen (now 7) was just 11 months old to find out that
    what I had suspected was true - at such a tender age my brand new
    daughter was about to become a big sister!!!
    
    I went through a very tough time at the beginning because I wasn't sure
    this was "fair". My husband and I owned a business at that time and I
    was just about to get active in it again after Karen's birth only to
    find out I would be "on leave" again in the not-too-distant future.
    Then, to make matters worse, I went thru the "guilts" for the thoughts/
    feelings I just described!!!!
    
    Having 2 this close is like having twins - only better - and worse!
    Better because they each have their own birthday, classroom, individual
    friends, etc. Worse because one is leaving an obnoxious phase (like the
    terrible twos) just as the other one is entering it.
    
    Mine are now 7 and 5 and 1/2 and are good friends - except when they
    are arguing - which seems to be only about 75% of the time they are
    awake. However, they would defend each other to the death and seem to
    have a "hidden language" that my husband, my son and I cannot hope to
    decode.
    
    Relax and enjoy - what seems insurmountable in theory always turns out
    to be only *close* to impossible in practice!!!!!
    
    Nancy

    I have two children, now 5 and 6 years old, 10 months apart.  I
    remember when I found out also what a surprise.  Mine is one boy and
    one girl.  It will be hard for a while, try and get some help, might
    there be a mother in the neighborhood that would not mind watching them
    for an hour or so if you have to go to the grocery store?  I had the 
    help of a neighbors daughter that just had started watching children 
    and would take them for a walk or just play with them so  that I could
    get dinner started or clean a  little.  Now they are both in school,
    one is in 1st grade and the other in Kindergarten boy do they grow up 
    fast.  I also had the help of daddy and he did some of the
    daycare/night care should I say so that I could do the grocery shopping
    or just go out with a friend for coffee.
    
    Good luck to you, feel free to ask questions off line.  
    
    Cindy    (unemployed Dec Temp at this time--but enjoying time with the 
    children)
    

In junior high, I dated a boy that I thought had a twin sister.  They were
very similar in appearance and were both in the same grade.  It wasn't until
a time later I found out they were 9 mos. apart.  All I can say is they were
VERY close and protective of one another.  I didn't see ANY sibling rivalry
at that age, but I have no idea how their babyhood/childhood was. They come
from a family of 8 kids and all the kids seem close to one another.

My mother had 4 kids in 5 years.  I asked her "How did you manage it???"  She
said it was hard, especially in the early years, ("you didn't think about it,
you just DID what had to be done!") but in many ways it was a big plus.  She 
said we always played together and kept each other entertained, even when no 
friends were around (vacations, inclement weather, etc.)  I do remember alot 
of fighting, especially with my sisters. (Not so much with my brother, who was 
the oldest and I was the youngest.)  Also, husbands (most) are alot more help-
ful now than they were in my mother's day.

Congratulations, and good luck.
� �ori �

    I have a 30 month boy and a 18 month girl.  They are 12 months and 5
    days apart.  I can honestly say that the first year was the hardest. 
    Physically more than anything else.  There I was 8 months pregnant
    carrying an 8 month old baby.  Boy did people stare at me...  Also if
    your 3 month old is not sleeping through the night you will be
    exhausted!  I remember thinking/wondering if I would ever be able to
    stay up past 9pm ever again in my lifetime.  
    
    Now that both children are walking/running and basically becoming
    independent I am beginning to enjoy their being so close in age.  They
    actually play together for a few minutes instead of fighting.  Although
    that seems to be their favorite game.  "Let's try to aggravate the
    other sibling before mommy notices."  
    
    The day that both children climbed the stairs into the house and I did
    not have to carry anyone - I remember thinking about how good it felt!
    
    Good luck and take care of yourself.   Deb 

    A friend of mine deliberately planned to have her two children
    close together (they're 11 months) to minimize the amount of time
    she had to be out of work, washing diapers, etc.
    
    --bonnie

I know the basenoter has already had her immediate future "planned", but for
those of us who don't...

How long do you wait?  I read your body needs 1 full year to recover from
childbirth/nursing.  Then I also read that it's good to wait until your
current child is out of diapers, that's a good indicator to say they are not
a "baby" anymore and you will have more of the time you really need for the
new baby.  Any comments on that?

But what about those of us who are already in their thirties?  Is it better
to go ahead as soon as willing to (summon up that courage and go for it) 
because the risks of over-35 pregnancy are so high?  I am 33 next month and
my daughter is 6.5 months old.  We were toying with the idea of trying again
on her 1st birthday.

I am one of 5 children myself and we are all close in age (my mom had 5 kids
in 6 years) and I always liked that we were close (so do they).  Yes everyone
thought me and my sister (18 mos. apart) were twins but that never really
bothered me at all.  I think my youngest sisters were slightly (maybe they
would say more than slightly) emotionally deprived but I think that's more due 
to the large number of children rather than the small age differences.

Kyra

    	A thank - you from the basenote.....
    
    	Many thanks to all who replied.  Now that we've come to
    	grips with reality, we looking forward to our new addition.
    	We know it's not going to be easy, but what part of parenting
    	is??   Now if I can just get through this pregnancy........
    
    	Thanks again - Tricia
    

    re: .12
    
    It seems to me that kids need more time and energy when they're 3
    than they did when they were infants.  A baby really doesn't do
    much but eat and sleep and dirty its diaper for the first few
    months.  They're fun and they're sweet but that's about it.  A
    toddler, now is a lot more work.  I like having my own kids widely
    spaced, but my second choice would be to have them close enough
    together that they're at more or less the same stage. 
    
    --bonnie

    re .12
    If I had it to do over again, I would either let about 4-5 years pass
    between them, or have them as close together as possible (twins=ideal).  
    I feel like I missed out on Christopher's whole 3rd year cuz I was so
    busy with the baby, and it was a year he could've used a lot more
    attention.  By the time they're 4 or 5 they're over a lot of that.
    Also, there is a CLEAR cut line where toys that are appropriate for a 6
    or 7 year old are NOT appropriate for a 2 year old.  Jason thinks he's
    the shortest 5 1/2 year old, and has done some real damage to
    Christopher's stuff.
    The advantage to them being close together is just what Bonnie's friend
    did - the "Get it ALL over with at once!" idea.  We were just breaking
    out of the dependent-toddler stages when we were back to sleepless
    nights all over again.  It's been 6 years of diapers, car seats,
    strollers etc. - it would've been nice to just be COMPLETELY exhausted
    for a couple years.  Also, if they're closer in age, there'd be less of
    the "I want to play with the Legos" while the other says "I want to
    ride my bike downtown".  You end up slowing down the older, and
    hurrying up the younger just to reach SOME balance that you can deal
    with.
    
    1st vote would be many years between.

	re:       <<< Note 595.12 by INFACT::HILGENBERG >>>
                          -< speaking of planning... >-

> because the risks of over-35 pregnancy are so high?  

I had my children at 33 and almost 38.  There are only slightly 
increased risks that I am aware of.  Even the incidence of Downs 
(one of the few problems that seems definately tied to "advanced" 
maternal age) is only slightly increased from 35 to 40.  The real 
increases are over 40.  

Please let me know if I am missing something.
Norma

re: over-35 pregnancy

I don't remember the exact numbers, but when I was pregnant my ob told me there 
was a dramatic difference in possible problems, genetic or physical, for 
under-35 vs. over-35.  For some reason I remember something like "down's 
syndrome occurs 1 in *hundreds* of thousands for under-35 pregnancies vs. 1 in 
*thousands* for over-35 pregnancies sticks in my mind.  However, you may be 
right, there is not much difference between problems at 35 vs. problems at 40 
(note they're both in the over-35 category).

Also my sister-in-law had a baby 16 months ago when she was 39 and had
placental separation in the 39th week which her doctor said was probably due
to her age (it can be caused by 2 other things which I forget what they
were but he ruled them out in her case).

re: having kids 4 to 5 years apart -- my sister-in-law's kids are 7 years
apart and she said she liked that because she could really enjoy the new
baby.  I guess it's food for thought but I don't think I want to be having
kids when I'm in my forties (I'm already tired and run-down!).

Keep coming with those kid-spacing comments.
Kyra

    Kyra,
    
    I have also read that there are increased risks with the over-35 
    pregnancy.   If we decide to have a second, we'll try to get it
    in before I turn 35 (3 years to go!).
    
    My personal preference (based on no experience!) is for around 3
    year spacing.   I just can't imagine having another baby now
    (Jason is 16 months).  I mean if you're tired with your infant,
    imagine coupling that with a toddler who is just learning to explore
    the world by foot!   I'm hoping that by 2-1/2 or 3 years old, some
    of this downright dangerous curiousity will have peaked  (am I 
    kidding myself?  i'm sure someone will set the record straight!)
    
    Good luck whatever you decide,
    Carol
    

    re: over 35 vs. over 40
    
    I was 35 when David was born.  I asked my OB if there were any
    special problems I should watch out for.
    
    He said, "Some doctors like to make a big fuss out of nothing.  It
    makes them feel like they have some say in the baby." 
    
    He also said that the lastest research, as more women are having
    babies at older ages, is indicating there are fewer problems than
    originally thought. When he first got out of medical school,
    first-time mothers in their 30's were unusual.  Now he sees lots
    of women over 40.  When it's your first pregnancy, there can be
    more complications than when you're 17, especially in conceiving,
    but generally a healthy woman who's been pregnant before won't
    have any age-related problems with a subsequent pregnancy.
    
    --bonnie

Hum - I was going to reply to this topic as I just had
a child 21 months after my first.  But it appears the
title is about having children very close together and
the real discussion is dangers of having children at
"older" ages!

    Kristen - I'm the basenoter and while the discussion seems to 
    have gotten off the original topic, I'm still quite interested 
    in your reply.....
    
    Tricia
    

Mine are 21 months apart to the day.  Personally, I think that if Kati had
gotten to the stage where she could:

	- get her own snack
	- wipe her own rear end
	- take a bath by herself
	- get dressed by herself

I'm not sure I would have ever had any desire to start all over again.  If
I'm changing one diaper, it's not much more effort to change another.  And
the good thing is that Kati will go get both diapers and a "fresh" for me.
She'll bring me just about anything I need for Kimmi because to her it's fun
(whereas an older child might quickly bore) and not a chore at all.  If I'm
making one meal it shouldn't be much harder to make another.  Or if I'm giving
one a bath I can stick the other one in with her (for a few years anyways).

Kati started out VERY jealous and could not understand how her mommy could
also be someone else's mommy.  I felt so sorry for her and so stressed out
trying to figure out how to give Kati the individual attention she "needed" -
but I have learned that she doesn't need INDIVIDUAL attention, she just
needs attention!  Now that she is coming to terms with Kimmi (10 weeks old)
being around, she doesn't mind my holding Kimmi while I read her a book or
sing her a song, or while we watch Big Bird.  In fact, she always asks me to
go get Kimmi Jo if she's sleeping in her crib or something.  She also asks
her teachers if she can "check bebe" at daycare, and they take her down to
the infant room 2 or 3 times a day to check on her.

Also, if yours are the same sex, you can save lots of $$$ on hand-me-downs.
So far I haven't bought one outfit for Kimmi Jo.

If I have any regrets at all, I would wish they were even closer in age.  Then
perhaps they could share some of their friends and be only one grade apart in
school instead of two.  Now that the stress is wearing off (being back to
work helps) I really enjoy having the two close together.

My experience,
Kristen

P.S.  Invest in a double stroller!!!!

RE: .22
    
>If I have any regrets at all, I would wish they were even closer in age.  Then
>perhaps they could share some of their friends and be only one grade apart in
>school instead of two.  Now that the stress is wearing off (being back to
>work helps) I really enjoy having the two close together.

    My sister and I are 26 months apart.  We were two grades apart all
    through school and we even went to two different high schools, but
    we always had the same friends, even now, so I wouldn't worry too
    much about that.
    
    Lori B.

    Maternal age is a factor in spacing for some of us; if I were to
    decide to have another baby, I'd have to opt for having the next
    baby sooner than I'd like or else being over 40 when I give birth.
    
    --bonnie

 This string seems to be tilting toward close spacing advocates.  Having two
 kids almost exactly 4 years apart (originally, 2nd's official due date was on
 the 1st's 4th birthday!), I can argue the other way.
 
 Not having to pay multiple homecare costs or pre-school tuitions at the same
 time (at least for very long) has much financial appeal.  Not having two
 infant/toddlers each spending half the winter at home with colds/flue/ear
 infections is also a blessing.  Having the older child be self-propelled even
 for long stretches is an immense boon (especially for those of us who prefer
 backpacks to strollers for the small ones!).  The greater overall
 independence of older kids (in self-care, self-entertainment, emotional
 independence, etc.) really cuts down on conflicting demands for parental time
 and attention.  Having rather different bedtimes is a real advantage.  Having
 obviously different levels of size, strength, skill, and knowledge really
 takes the edge off most jealousy/competitiveness issues (though not all!).
 I could go on and on.
 
 Most of the arguments earlier on the other side cited the advantages in close
 friendship that come with similarity in age.  I haven't found that to be
 true.  My kids are very close emotionally, give each other a lot of support,
 and like a great many joint activities.  Of course, it isn't a friendship
 "between equals," but because of the decreased competitiveness, I think that
 actually helps.  In any case, both boys spend most of their time at their
 (pre-)schools interacting with same-age friends.  I think having a rather
 different relationship/friendship with a sibling is advantageous; there is
 certainly a lot of explicit teaching and learning that is not present between
 near peers.
 
 I would not argue that close spacing is bad for the kids, but neither is
 wider spacing.  I think the matter must be resolved by parental whim, by
 practicality of family circumstances, or by chance.  Neither science nor
 philosophy is likely to issue clear instructions on proper spacing.
 
 		- Bruce
 
 p.s. I dissent from the suggestion a couple of entries back that hand-me-down
 success depends on similarity of sex.  Both my boys have depended immensely
 on clothes recycled from a slightly older - and very much female - cousin.
 Not her dresses, mind you, or even her underware.  But it was very much to
 all of our advantage that both boys had purple as their favorite color,
 followed closely by pink, since their cousin did, too (is this genetic???).

	This is off the subject, but I can't resist...

	Favorite colors may well be genetic!  At least the famous (infamous?)
Minnesota Twins study seems to suggest that it is.

Tracey

    I'm inclined to agree with Bruce, based on personal experience. My
    siblings were 13, 10 and 4 when my twin and I were born. 
    

    
 p.s.   It occured to me last night that I may also get away without having to
 	pay two college tuitions at the same time!
 
 		- Bruce
 

    re:-1 (Bruce)
    
    That's EXACTLY why I've decided to wait til Allyson is 4 to have
    my next one!
    
    - K
    

No NO NO you have it all wrong.  You have to have two
Einsteins like I do (I've decided that God put so many
brains in their heads that there was no room for hair)
that you don't have to worry about college tuitions!
(But about those weddings......)

;-)

 
 I'm sorry, Kristen, but Einstein never got a scholarship.  Bo Jackson did. 
 You ordered the wrong model.
 
 		- Bruce
 

    
    
    Well, my experience has been with very closely spaced families.  I 
    have three siblings, and all of us range from 12 months apart to
    14 months apart (12 months, 13 months, and 14 months).  For a period
    of time my mother had 4 kids in diapers!  Although we all tell her she
    was a little bit crazy there are definitely some advantages.  All of
    us were and still are extremely close.  We shared the same friends
    through school, used the same clothes and toys.  The college years were
    a financial burden (one year all 4 of us were in college at once), but
    the up side was that it was over a lot quicker than if we had been 
    even a couple of years apart.  Also, having us all so quickly together
    at a young age means that now my parents, who are only in their late
    forties-early fifties, are completely done with raising kids, and are
    thoroughly enjoying being able to travel as much as they want!
    
    Now it looks like my sister is following in my mothers footsteps!  My
    nieces are 20 months old and 7 months old.  Jennifer, the older one,
    loves her baby sister and loves to help mom take care of her.  Although
    it is a lot of work having both of them so young, my sister says that
    she was able to get used to it very quickly since there was no gap
    in between.

    re: more than one in college at once
    
    Several private schools, including Syracuse, give a discount for a
    second child in school at the same time. 
    
    Granted that you could send three kids to UNH for the price of
    sending one to Syracuse . . . 
    
    --bonnie