Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Since I will only be a parent come April, I couldn't very well give
    my view as a parent, but I DO remember being a kid in this situation.
    Although I was reasonably popular, in sports I was ALWAYS the last to
    be picked by the team captains. Yes, that is a feeling I won't forget.
    
    As an adult I still blame the teachers (and ESPECIALLY the gym teachers
    in our high school) for putting teams together in this way. On the other
    hand, the stress, as a kid, of working with a person you do not like is
    tougher than tolerating someone as an adult. I found it easier to
    choose my own partner than to have one chosen for me. Kids can be cruel
    in both instances. 
    
    I'm not sure what I would do as the teacher in this instance, perhaps
    picking names from a hat? Then at least you'd be sure that the teacher
    wasn't putting you in with the meanest person on purpose.... 8-)
    
    Monica
    
      

In gym (when I was in school) it was fairly common to line up and count
off by the number of teams.  You tended to get relatively random selection.
(though some kids would try to line up to rig being together  8^{).

In class "pick a partner" was pretty common.  It tends to make the teacher's
job easier, sometimes, as .0 described, to the detrement of a less popular
child.  One solution that might be suggested to the teacher is that the kids
must change partners frequently and not choose a partner they have had before.
This encourages kids to work with others outside their own cliques.

Dick

I don't think that there is a good answer to this one, other than not to work 
in groups at all.  As .1 mentions, the rejection that might occur IN a forced 
pairing may be more painful than the rejection that occurs in the setting up 
of the pairs.  I can think of (or have seen) many scenarios, with potential 
for problems in all of them.

But that doesn't mean that the problems can't be minimized.

Presumably, the teacher can count and divide by two.  She knew that someone 
would be unpaired, and she should have had some sort of plan to take care of 
the odd number.  And since she didn't need to know right away (you said she 
asked "a couple of days later"), she could have found out without needing to 
ask publicly.  She could just as easily have asked any students who weren't 
paired up to see her privately, and/or asked the students to write down their 
pairing on a piece of paper.  

Curious -- what did the teacher do once she found out your daughter was 
unpaired?

Clay

Radia,
    I agree that the teacher was acting in a pretty insensitive way.

    I had another reaction, though, too.  I may be completely misinterpreting,
    and if so, never mind!  But this part:

>>>    There were an odd number of kids.  My daughter is pretty much
>>>    the least popular kid in the group of kids, so she was left out,

    made me wonder if your daughter is "least popular" to the extent of
    feeling alienated from the other kids?  And if so, do you know what's
    the cause of this?  I always felt like a social misfit until, oh, college
    age, I'd say.  I was too tall and and too skinny and my clothes weren't
    "right" and I never seemed to be interested in the same things as most
    other kids my age.  It seemed like other kids were all banded together
    in little cliques, and I was left out.  I think (in retrospect) that it
    would have helped me to just have somebody talk about that "misfit" feeling.
    If there are things you can do to help your daughter make some friends
    (encourage her to invite them over after school or plan to go hiking
    together on a weekend,...), or maybe just talk with her about how it's
    ok to not be popular as long as you're happy with yourself, I think that
    might help in the long term.

    I don't propose this as a substitute for working things out with the
    teacher, by any means.

			cheryl

    Re .3:  How did the teacher handle it?  There was no necessity to be
    in groups of 2.  These were pairings for having someone prompt while
    someone else read a poem.  After my daughter raised her hand as not
    having a partner, the teacher said, "Who volunteers to be Dawn's
    prompter?"  There was a bit of silence, and then finally someone
    raised their hand, and then 2 other kids, and Dawn chose one.
    
    Re 4: Why is she unpopular?  I'm sort of surprised she is.  She's
    certainly more socially adept than either of her parents :-)
    Grownups are totally charmed by her.  She's had close friends, so
    I'm not worried about her getting along with peers.  She had a very
    intense relationship with a wonderful girl whose family moved to
    Brazil this summer.  Then her next best friend just moved out of
    the school district early in the school year.  There's just nobody
    left.
    
    Part of her "problem" is she's unusual.  She's very bright.  She loves
    math puzzles and classical music.  She's been written up in the
    newspaper as a violinist several times, and a lot of the kids resent
    that.  She's also very curious and the opposite of shy.
    
    I didn't have many friends, but nobody DISliked me, because I was
    too quiet to notice.  Dawn isn't good at being inconspicuous.
    
    Luckily her present unpopularity isn't making her dislike school, or
    lowering her self esteem, or dampening her general enthusiasm about
    everything, so I'm not very concerned.  But I do know there are a
    lot of kids that would be destroyed by that sort of thing (I would
    have been), and if I can solve the problem for other kids as well
    I'd be delighted.
    

    One other thing.  Although it's interesting to investigate why
    someone is unpopular to see if it's something one can/should change,
    I feel it's not really relevant to whether teachers should ask kids
    to form groups.  There will always be less popular kids, and forcing
    kids to group themselves for class activities when they already form
    cliques socially will always leave some kids out.  I'd think even
    a relatively popular kid (say in a social clique of 5 kids), when the
    class is told to group themselves into groups of 4, and the kid
    can't get in with his own clique, (and possibly is rejected by all
    the other groups), the kid will feel hurt, because he was the last in
    the pecking order in his own clique (one of the 5 kids had to get
    left out).
    
    Now I don't think anyone suggested this but I also don't think this
    sort of activity is good as a diagnostic tool to find out if there's
    a popularity "problem", sort of like a math test is good for finding
    out if there's a weakness in math.  There are more than enough times
    (forming playgroups at recess) for the unpopular kids to experience
    rejection, so that they'll know they're not popular.
    
    Also, I don't think that if something is making a kid unpopular with
    a particular group of kids that it is something that necessarily
    should be changed.  As I tell my daughter, the things that are making
    her unpopular with this group of kids will be the very things that
    will make her life wonderful at college and beyond (her assertiveness,
    her intellectual interests, not placing value on having "esprit" or
    whatever written on one's clothing).

    
    I never really understood "pairing" myself, either ... until I was
    taking evening college courses (at a very reputable university).  One
    instructor quite blatantly paired me with a student who had a lot of
    potential, but her social life and lack of motivation was qreatly
    affecting her grades -- to the point of jeopardizing her scholarships!
    
    Guess who "inherited" her on a very large, serious project, as a
    partner?!  I approached the instructor, assumed full responsibility to
    complete the project "by myself" and explained that if I were going to
    have to do the work "single handed", then I'd rather get full credit
    for it as well.  Since I was working fulltime, married and had a lot of
    responsibility and jiggling to do, I didn't need to drag around a boat
    anchor for a "partner".  He assured me that if she didn't do her share,
    it would not be held against me in any way, but he felt my involvement
    with her would probably be her last ditch chance to survive  (I needed
    the extra stress!).
    
    So, "we" did the project ... I pulled, pushed, begged, pleaded,
    threatened ... worse than trying to get a 2-year old to pick up his
    toys!  Project was completed.  Yes, I did much more than my 50%
    (although she met her minimum requirements) and we both got A+'s.
    Was it worth it, NOOOOOO!!!!  I made a bundle of sarifices to get her
    to do that itzy bit of minimum work.
    
    I am dead set against partnerships, especially if a student is willing
    and able to complete the task twofold.  I feel projects should be such
    that they can be equally divided and distributed to each student ...
    OR project work is manageable by each student.
    
    In all my years of schooling (and I was considered one of the
    fortunate & more popular students), I always found partnership projects
    did NOTHING to strengthen friendships and working relationships ... but
    rather created a lot of stress and dissention.
    
    Dottie
    
    PS:  This is still a very sore subject for me!
                

re: .5, .6

Sounds to me like "unpopular", while possibly accurate literally, is an 
unneccesarily pejorative term.  Sounds to me like "misunderstood" and "not 
sought out" are more accurate.  The fact that some other kids volunteered says 
to me that the problem wasn't "rejection" in the sense I normally think of 
it.  Seeking out others who have similar interests is common, and 
understandable, especially among kids that age.  However, since this situation 
doesn't require any degree of "chemistry", it seems to me that this was a good 
candidate for some kind of arbitrary grouping.  

In your base note, you mentioned about some kids saying that they thought they 
were paired up, then asking someone else to be their partner.  While somewhat 
tactless, and perhaps rude, I don't read it as rejection.  It's common for 
kids to have understandings, either implicit or explicit, that they will "pair 
up" when the opportunity arises.  So it's entirely possible that they did 
"think" that they were paired up, but needed to confirm it.  It WOULD have 
been dishonest if they had said "I already have a partner" then asked someone 
else.  Believe me, I heard lines like that several times when I was dating.  
It was very, very painful, but not a "rejection".  As for the giggles, it's 
entirely possible those were those nervous, "Whew, I'm glad it's not me" kind. 

re: .7

One the reason that both arbitrary groupings, or teacher selected groupings
have downside risks also.

Clay

    
    I personally think that partnerships and/or group projects play an
    important role in a child's development.   In my own work experience,
    I have done maybe one or two projects solo - the majority require
    working with others.   Certainly there are times when you'll be
    paired with a "boat anchor" but they're a fact of life!   A good
    teacher/manager will recognize who is doing the work, etc.
    
    I agree with the basenoter that the pairing/grouping of children
    should be selected by the teacher (i.e. create evenly skilled
    groups) or generated in some random fashion when possible.   I 
    remember, for example, counting off by 4's (or whatever the required 
    number was) and creating groups that way.    However, there may be 
    some circumstances where it might be beneficial for the children 
    to select their own groups (for example, a project that requires alot
    of out-of-classroom work).  This would be the exception, not the rule. 
    
    Carol
      

    I agree with the previous noter who said that working in groups can be
    beneficial.  After all, kids need to learn social skills and how to
    work and play well with other people.
    
    However, I think that your daughter's teacher could be more sensitive. 
    I still bear the scars of always being the last person picked for
    schools sports teams (because of my clumsiness) and the first person
    picked for school work projects (because I got good grades and many of
    the kids thought I'd do the work for them -- and sometimes I did
    because I didn't have assertive skills at age ).  
    
    Actually, I'm surprised they still do this.  With all the emphasis
    these days on child psychology, healthy childhoods, etc., the teacher
    should know better.  She's probably just being lazy.  I think you
    should talk to this teacher and suggest ways that she could put the
    kids into groups (i.e., counting off, picking names from hats, boy-girl
    pairing, etc.)  Sounds like the teacher is sort of stupid, especially
    since there was an off number of kids in the class.
    
    Good luck.
    
    Nancy

    I agree that group projects are beneficial, although I have some
    memories of not being picked or being the last picked.  I think the
    best way is to assign people at random.  The hat drawing sounds like a
    good idea.  Kids can be very mean, but they learn it from us.  A sad
    commentary on us "adults" to be sure.  
    
    
    
    Peace,
    
    Mike

    My wife teaches at a school for learning disabled children.
    The children generally require intensive teacher interaction so
    the opportunities for group work occur less often.  She tells me
    she would never have a class prohect where she'd let the students
    pick their own partners.  In fact, I can testify to the fact that
    she often comes home and uses me as a sounding board for the possible
    groupings she's thinking about.
    
    When Barbara picks the teams or partnerships she has to juggle a
    whole lot of issues like who can learn from whom, the self esteem
    of individual kids, how each child's talents can contribute to
    a team effort, all in the context of what the particular lesson
    has as its goal.  
    
    Barbara has been teaching for over 20 years and SHE has problems
    picking the best combinations of students for particular projects,
    I don't see how the kids could, on their own, make the best selections.
    

I agree wholeheartedly that groupings for class projects should be selected
by the teacher.  But the scenario needs to go further.  My daughter's 7th
grade science class recently did group projects, and I think the teacher 
did a good job of allowing/encouraging the kids to operate in a way similar
to how the workplace ought to operate.  The teacher assigned teams, but any
student who had concerns about his/her assignment (e.g. personality conflicts,
inequitable workload, choice of study area) could come to the teacher 
privately to work it out.  One of Emily's friends changed teams because she
was especially interested in the subject matter that another team had chosen.

In summary, I think working in teams is valuable training for students, but
there must be an avenue for resolution of the various problems that can come
up in team activities.

Sarah

    
    
    Maybe part of the problem regards popularity could be resolved in the
    home.  If we teach our children to be open minded about differences,
    perhaps they will not designate another person as being different or
    "unpoplular".  If they give the "unpopular" person a chance, they might
    be surprized.
    
    I remember an incident that happened to me in Junior High School.  I
    was not without at least one or two close friends most of the time but
    hardly the top ten of the popularity list.  At that time, there was a
    notebook, I believe it was called, a SLANG book, that was making the
    rounds of the class(es).  The SLANG book had items written about
    students, mostly unpopular--I guess, by other students.  There were two
    students who were good friends to each other.  In Home Ec., I over
    heard one of them laughing about something written about me.  The other
    girl shushed her up.  The girl that shushed her up, later told me,
    "You're not so bad once you get to know you."
                                                 

    .14's comments about teaching children to accept other children's
    differences are super.
    
    My son is learning disabled and has been at 2 schools - one which
    was a highly homogenized, white middle class school,  with little 
    concern about teaching youngsters
    to value their own and each other's differences, and another that
    spends a good deal of time teaching children to value differences.
    
    In the first school he was very unhappy.  He could not keep up
    with the other children in academics or athletics.  He would
    often be disoriented (on a soccer field he'd kick the ball
    in the wrong direction) and his lack of age-appropriate fine
    and gross motor skills combined to make him the butt of classmate
    jokes, the last one to be picked when teams were being chosen, and
    even an annoyance to some of the school's "teachers," (everyone
    else gets their homework done in 1/2 an hour - I can't believe
    Chris takes 3 hours to do the little homework I assign.")
    
    In the second school there are regular school wide assemblies
    addressing children's differences, especially as they relate
    to the learning process.  Successful learning disabled adults are
    brought onto the campus as role models.  There are, for new
    students, weekly discussions on how to treat other children.
    The campus itself is also more racially integrated than the school
    he was first in.
    
    As a result, there is an atmosphere of child-to-child caring and
    nurturing that is awesome.
    
    Once Chris got to the second school - where teaching children
    to appreciate their own differences and accept the differences
    of others - is taught, modelled and held up as the standard for
    behavior - Chris quickly reverted back to his natural happy self.
    He now teaches me about respecting others, and understanding
    what kinds of words and actions are proper.  I was talking
    with him about something and I commented, "gee, that's a stupid
    idea."  He looked at me and said, rather firmly, "'Stupid' is not
    a very nice word to use - we don't use that word at Carroll
    School, it can hurt people's feeling."
    
    Respect for the differences of others can be taught, and it does
    yield positive results.