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Conference moira::parenting_v3

Title:Parenting
Notice:READ 1.27 BEFORE WRITING
Moderator:CSC32::DUBOIS
Created:Wed May 30 1990
Last Modified:Tue May 27 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1364
Total number of notes:23848

529.0. "Pick me up, Mom..." by SCAACT::RESENDE (Digital, thriving on chaos?) Wed Nov 28 1990 22:49

    Well, now that we've been through the discussion of allowing Michael to
    play in the dishwasher, he's lost all interest in the dishwasher... 
    Figures...
    
    Michael, age 10 months, is displaying a noticable change in behavior,
    and I can't honestly say that any of it is positive.  He's our first
    and only, and while we don't feel the new behavior is "right", we need a
    more seasoned viewpoint.
    
    I'll try and itemize to keep this brief:
    
    .  Bath time used to be just about the most fun time of the day. 
    Michael *loved* his bath, and would stand at the bathtub and try to
    climb in while the water was running.  No more.  Now almost as soon as
    he gets into the tub he wants to stand up.  He and the bathgiver
    (usually Pat but once in a while me) enter into a battle that lasts the
    length of the bath, and results in crying almost the whole time. 
    Instead of playing for a time before getting bathed, Michael now cries
    and fusses and fights and Pat just bathes him as quickly as possible
    and gets it over with.  If he were allowed to stand, he'd be happy, but
    of course he'd also fall and hurt himself.
    
    .  Meal time used to be pleasant and easy.  Now each meal of the day
    gets successively more unpleasant, till dinner is a nightmare.  He
    fights and arches his back when he's put into the high chair.  Tonight
    for example, he cried so much that Pat finally took him out of the high
    chair and told him she'd feed him whenever he was ready.  He continued
    to cry after she put him down on the floor, but she was too frustrated
    to respond.  After a couple of minutes she got hold of herself enough
    to go after him.  She found him; he had gone into the living room by
    himself and was lying on his stomach with his head on his arms,
    sobbing.  Of course she melted at that point, picked him up and
    comforted him, and calmed him down enough to go back and eat his
    dinner.
    
    .  Almost all day Michael wants to be held.  Since Pat is the one at
    home, she's the one he wants to hold him.  She cannot get anything done
    except when he's asleep.  Being in the room with her is not enough; he
    insists that she pick him up and hold him, and if she doesn't he cries
    and hangs onto her legs.  In fact, that's what happened at dinner
    tonight (see item above):  Pat put him down on the kitchen floor long
    enough to fix his dinner, and he got so upset that the whole meal was
    ruined.  Until the past month or so, he was the most secure,
    well-adjusted kid you ever saw ... never met a stranger, smiled with
    everyone and flirted shamelessly with women of all ages ... and now he
    acts like he's afraid Pat's going to desert him or something.  What
    gives here?
    
    .  He has no use for any of his toys, and believe me he has lots of
    toys.  He will play by himself *only* if he's doing something
    forbidden; e.g., playing with the fireplace tools, unrolling toilet
    tissue, etc.  We bought him a neat-o set of blocks the other day, and
    he pays them no attention whatsoever even when one of us is on the
    floor stacking them up for him to knock down or whatever.  Basically he
    doesn't want to play at all (only wants to be held all the time), but
    if he's going to play, it *must* be something he's not allowed to do or
    it isn't fun.
    
    Help, help, help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Steve
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529.1TLE::STOCKSPDSCheryl StocksThu Nov 29 1990 07:4436
    Bathtime: when David reached the active stage, we put a big rubber mat in
    the bottom of the tub and let him stand, crawl, walk as much as he wanted.
    He's never fallen.  You know your own child, though.  If you don't think
    he'd be safe doing this, maybe try switching to showers or sponge baths
    for a while and then go back to the regular baths and see if things have
    improved?

    Clinginess: It sounds like this is your real problem, and is the cause of
    most of the other things you've mentioned.  David had his absolute peak of
    clinginess at 9 months (I remember because it occurred during one of my
    mother's visits).  This may be what you're seeing with Michael.  If so, he
    should outgrow it soon.  But I'd also consider whether he might be getting
    teeth (one-year molars?  a little early, but possible, I'd think, if the
    rest of his teeth are in), or coming down with a cold, or maybe just
    frazzled from holiday celebrations and preparations, or *something*.   His
    behavior sounds a little more extreme than what I remember of David's
    separation anxiety at the same age.

    Mealtime problems: Does he seem to be objecting to the high chair itself?
    Try sitting him in a real chair with a booster seat or stack of books to
    sit on.  (Ok, Bruce, time for your Sassy Seat spiel. :)  If it's related
    to the clinginess, you might also try letting him sit on someone's lap
    while he's eating.  I think I'd try to avoid starting that as a habit,
    though.

    Not playing with toys: Just wait until Christmas, when his favorite toys
    will be the wrapping paper and boxes and he'll completely ignore all
    the wonderful and expensive presents he's been showered with!  I think
    this is competely normal.  Don't push.  Make it easy for him to get at
    his toys when he does want to play with them, keep him away from harmful
    and breakable things, and then just let him exercise his curiosity and
    initiative.  It does sound as though he'll be back to playing with toys
    once he gets past this clinginess, though.

						cheryl

529.2my 12 cents :-)FDCV06::HSCOTTLynn Hanley-ScottThu Nov 29 1990 08:2740
    Welcome to the world of stages - every time you think you understand
    your kid, they change! After a while, I got used to the fact that he'd
    change, and just starte enjoying it more.
    
    Bath time was always a favorite time for Ryan - like .1, we put a big
    rubber mat in the bottom of the tub and allowed Ryan to stand since he
    insisted on it - but no jumping etc. We've also seen the progression as
    he's gotten older from 1/2 hr baths nightly to sometimes a 10 minute
    bath once every 10 days. I just go with the flow, so to speak.
    
    Spock/Brazelton have some great comments about mealtimes.... as kids
    get mobile (and it's tougher when that's early), they find that much
    more interesting than sitting still. We stopped using the high chair at
    12 months because he wasn't interested, and it wasn't worth the battle.
    Many a night still (at 2 and 4 mo), Ryan eats standing up, with his
    dinner on a chair. You decide what battles you're willing to fight and
    this was one I don't want to make a big thing out of. BTW, I have a
    great article on toddler and eating habits if anyone is interested. It
    really helped me a lot.
    
    As for toys, I think Ryan was at the age of Michael when I started
    offering the Tupperware cabinet, right near me in the kitchen, since
    his toys were "boring" to him.  So he could play near me or under me
    (!) while I cooked.
    
    And finally clinginess is a fact of life, that thank goodness we have
    moved somewhat beyond. I remember well those days of juggling dinner
    and a hefty kid at the same time. The backpack helps, as does a side
    sling called Sara's Ride. Frees up your hands but keeps the kid close.
    Oddly enough, I still have an old article that discusses the advantages
    of carrying your child as much as possible (in a backpack or such) -
    the author maintains that it actually helps encourage later
    independence, since your child has been a part of your world from a
    very early age.
    
    So have fun, and don't worry about Michael becoming a terror or a nasty
    - when you stop and think about how much he's learning and absorbing
    all at once, it's amazing they don't overload! We definitely would!
    Lynn
    
529.3not a nice stage...CNTROL::STOLICNYThu Nov 29 1990 08:299
    I'll make this short and sweet: Jason's behaved EXACTLY as you 
    have described Michael from approximately 9 months until just after
    his first birthday.  It was a terribly trying time for both of us
    and I'm afraid that I have no constructive suggestions for you as
    I didn't find any real "cure" other than time.   So, there's at least
    one other child out here that exhibited such extreme behaviour!!
    
    Best of luck to you and Pat,
    cj/
529.4Same SituationsCECV01::PONDThu Nov 29 1990 09:1236
    I also had similar issues with Elizabeth at that age.  I remember
    entering a note in PARENTING (a few volumes ago) about feeding her on
    my lap.  She absolutely *would not tolerate* the high chair.  The only
    way I could feed her was to sit her on my lap and feed her from the
    table.  (This is backwards, and doesn't provide the best view of the
    mouth.)  Anyway, I was convinced that this style of eating would either
    warp her psychologically forever or convince her that this was the only
    way to eat.  (I envisioned a college student still sitting on my lap.
    :) )  However, the stage passed and life went on.
    
    I also remember E trying to spring from the bath.  She was a little
    older, however, maybe around 18 months.  That one passed, too.  Now, at
    3, she's back to loving the bath; she pretends she's the Little Mermaid. 
    Still not hot on the hair washing business, though.
    
    As for the clinginess...HA!  Elizabeth *still* hasn't passed through
    that one!  She *still* wants to be picked up, especially since there's
    a relatively new baby in the house.  So, while it is extremely
    inconvenient to hoist a 35 pounder, it's not worth the hassle not to.
    
    And finally, E *is* into toys, but only fairly recently.  She can now
    play pretty independently with paints, clay, or Duplo blocks.  This
    didn't start to happen, however, until around 2 years.  At your son's
    age, E would be slightly interested in toys, but only if Mom was around
    to play with them, too.
    
    I suppose I gradually learned to accept the fact that kids really don't
    care that you (parents) have an agenda.  It's not malicious, they're
    just unaware of any concerns but they're own.  They do grow out of
    this, however, especially with a little "coaching".
    
    Good luck with Michael.  As you've already discovered, these stages do
    come and go.  "And this, too, shall pass..."
    
    LZP
          
529.5SSGV02::VERGEThu Nov 29 1990 09:145
    Something to consider - if he's growing fast (don't they all?)
    maybe he needs to eat earlier.  Also, would he sit in a little
    chair at a little person's table?  Harder for you to help
    him eat, but it just his size, he won;t be "tied" in, like in
    a high chair, and he just might like it!
529.6Take it easyHYSTER::DELISLEThu Nov 29 1990 09:3843
    First of all - RELAAAXXXXX.   What your son is exhibiting is perfectly
    normal.  If they didn't change over time, they'd never grow!
    
    My 15 month old went through much of what you're describing.  The
    bathtimes are now performed standing up with about 2 inches of water in
    the tub, the shower massage turned on, and the kid dashing back and
    forth screaming, giggling and throwing toys out of the tub.  I soap him
    up while clingy on to an arm, wwash his hair, then rinse him down with
    the shower massage.
    
    I remember about 4 months ago Josh being absolutely impossible in his
    high chair. He just wuld not sit still in it!  You can handle it in two
    ways - give in and put him on your lap to eat, or on a booster or
    something; or you can persist and teach him that high chairs are where
    you eat.  (By the way we also use a Sassy Seat in the kitchen and he
    hated that too).  I chose the latter.  When he fussed I'd take him out
    of the high chair and put him on the floor.  Then when he indicated he
    wanted food, I'd put him back in the high chair.  We would go through
    this 5 or 6 times a night at dinnertime!  It all depends on your
    patience level,  But I did not want to feed a child on my lap every
    night, and I didn't want to "teach" him that was permitted.  He's fine
    now, eats in the high chair or the Sassy Seat without a problem.
    
    Toys are for parents not babies!  That's one thing I've learned.  Wait
    till they hit 1 1/2 to 2 to develop a true interest in their toys. 
    Till then it's the toilet paper, your underwear drawers, your nicely
    lined up shoes, towels in the kitchen drawers, basically anything on
    their eye level.  That's precisely the reason you have to go around and
    "kid-proof" your house! 8*}
    
    The clingyness is tough.  I've known mothers who carry their kid around
    in a backpack ALL DAY LONG.  Even doing housecleaning, cooking and
    laundry with them attached.  Not for me.  The best I can advise is to
    have patience, it will pass, and try to have something the child can do
    in the same vicinity as your wife, like playing with pots/pans while
    cooking, etc.  Actually my kids used to "help" me do the laundry, pick
    up the house, put dishes away from the dishwasher.
    
    Take it easy, it will pass on to another stage, probably one where he's
    as independent as they come and you'll look back on these days fondly. 
    After all, you've never seen a five year old go to kindergarten on his
    mother's back have yu? 8*}
    
529.7Bath IdeasISTG::HOLMESThu Nov 29 1990 12:0030
    Here are some bath-time suggestions...
    
    Have you tried getting some new tub toys for him?  Even though Brian
    didn't play too much with toys outside the bath at that age, he always
    loved playing with his tub toys.  Maybe it was the way they floated
    around in the water that intrigued him.  His favorite were those
    "bubbles" -- the little balls with things that spin around inside
    (seahorses, starfish, mickey mouse, etc).
    
    If you are determined to keep him sitting (that was the number 1 rule
    for Brian), you could try a bath ring.  Its a plastic ring with four
    legs with suction cups on the bottom.  The ring is about 6 inches from
    the bottom of the tub and it holds the baby in a sitting position in
    the tub.  We always used it because it was easier for us to wash Brian
    without having to hold onto him, and it was more fun for him to play
    without the constaints of our hands.  They aren't very big, so I doubt
    that Michael could get himself to a standing position very easily.  He
    may scream in it, but maybe if you introduce it along with the new
    toys, he'll forget he's in it (wishful thinking?!).
    
    If you do decide that standing is okay, I would definitely get the
    rubber mat for the bottom of the tub.  I've also seen foam-rubber
    type things that fit over the faucets and the place where the water
    comes out.  That would at least stop him from hitting hard metal if he
    did fall.
    
    Good luck!
    
                                          Tracy  
                                                
529.8POWDML::SATOWThu Nov 29 1990 12:3538
Steve,

I really appreciate the notes you enter, even though I don't always have 
ideas for you, or time to respone.  They read almost like a textbook of phases 
that kids go through.  Your notes and the replies to them are, IMO, this 
notesfile at its best.  Thanks for taking the time to enter them.  You 
obviously care a lot.

re: bath

Perhaps a compromise is one of those "bath showers" -- I don't know the 
correct term.  One end fits over the faucet, the other end has a head the 
emits a fine spray, with a flexible hose in between.  It enables you to wash 
and rinse a standing toddler.  They also have the advantage of making it easy 
to wash hair if a child refuses to "dunk", and they prevent essentially pad 
the faucet, a common source of injury.  Another possibility might be a "shower 
massage".  Downside -- some kids have trouble with the spray.

Does he just want to stand while he is being washed, or the whole time he is 
in the bath?  If it's the latter, maybe another compromise might be that he 
stands, someone attends him, but he doesn't get to stay in the bath very long.
I wouldn't be suprised, though, if he gets bored standing up, and once he is 
washed, decides to sit down.

re: needing to be held

I like the suggestion of slings, backpacks, etc., though if I remember 
correctly, at 10 months, they get kinda heavy to carry constantly.  One 
suggestion -- is it just mommy, or is Michael amenable to being held by YOU?
If so, perhaps she could delay the heavy meal preparation until you're home.

Also, I assume from your "wine in the cooking" question that you like to eat 
nice meals.  Even with my wife not working now, we have pretty much abandoned 
our "gourmet" habits.  Waistlines, cholesterol, two finicky kids, and a tight 
schedule have taken care of that.  Our meals now are very basic, and any 
exotic meals are reserved for the weekend.

Clay
529.9at least they are predictable...YIELD::BROOKEThu Nov 29 1990 12:3932
    I've gone through the same things with all three of my sons at about
    the same age as yours is now - the third is in the clinging stage now. 
    It passes, so no matter what you do about it you cannot stop this
    progression, or speed it up.  The "answer" is the same as with just
    about any behaviour problem- do what you are comfortable with doing.
    It is more important to keep your cool and be consistent than it is to 
    be "right".  I have the sitter feed my kids dinner early so that when
    we get home (frazzled as usual) they are not hungry and cranky.  We can
    spend time with them, then eat late.  Face it, kids were not meant to
    eat with silverware, especially when everything FEELS so good!  
    Another note here, do not worry too much about how much your son is
    eating now, he has better things to do with his time and doesn't need
    to eat as much as during the first year.  "Manners" won't start until
    at least 3 (unless he is like my second son - a genuine INDIVIDUAL!)
    
    Baths are generally one of the favorite activities.  We keep lots of
    tub toys there.  We do enforce the no standing rule for safety sake, so
    that during the "standing" or "fear of water" stage the bathtime is
    very short, but that passes, too. Beware, the next stage is "how wet
    can we get the bathroom before Mommy stops us" (pretty wet, but that's
    why they invented vinyl wallpaper!)
    
    Finally, clingy is tough on everyone.  I generally give in when I can
    (yes, the side sling thing is good for vacuuming, but I refused to hold
    any while I was cooking...their little hands are just too fast at
    reaching out and grabbing/pulling).  Playpens are handy here (and
    earplugs).  It, too, shall pass (and then you say "he never wants to be
    near us!)  
    
    Relax, and GOOD LUCK!
    
    /Laura
529.10Buy ear plugs...6348::ORTHThu Nov 29 1990 13:5943
    Oh, Steve, you've described the not-quite-one-year-old to a "T"!
    
    All three of ours went through this to one degree or another, but what
    I can assure you of, is it passes...really!
    
    Our two oldest never developed a great dislike for the tub, although
    got whiny about to one extent or another. Daniel, on the other hand was
    another story, at about 11 mos. he abruptly began to cry when he would
    even just hear the water running into the tub! Made for distinctly
    unfun times. We *never* allow a child to stand unattended, and never
    allow the littler ones to stand at all (like for washing bottoms)
    unless a parent has hands-on contact. We *did* have Josh fall as a
    toddler and he whacked his little head very hard on the side of the
    tub. Scared the whits out of us, but other than a huge goose egg that
    turned lovely technicolor shades, there was no real damage. We have,
    and I would *highly* recommend, one of the foam rubber tub faucet
    covers. It has not only prevented the kids from getting hurt, but my
    wife . She was sort of crouching down, scrubbing at a stain in the tub,
    and stood up *under* the faucet. It scraped up her lower back, but the
    foam kept it down to just a bruise, whereas she would have had a nasty,
    deep scrape if it hadn't been on there. What we used to get Daniel to
    stay happily in the tub is not available to you! We had one of the
    older kids get in with him, and he loved it! Maybe you or Pat could get
    in with him?
    
    Our kids went through stages of high chair dislike, but we felt it to
    be a battle we needed to win. The crying didn't last all that long
    (relatively speaking!), and once they decided they had to accept it,
    there were no more battles. I do agree with the possibility of eating
    too late for him, though. If he's too hungry, that hunger can surface
    as all sorts of socially unacceptable behavior!
    
    And finally, clinginess. Our 3.5 year old is still clingy, and Daniel
    at 19.5 mos., goes in and out of it. We basically, held 'em when we
    could, and didn't when we couldn't...and listened to them crying and
    hollering. Tell Pat to hlod him as musch as she can, and then don't
    feel guilty about the rest of the times! He will survive, and she will
    too! Kids do have to learn at some point that they do not control our
    every waking moment...influence it, yes, but control it, no. 
    
    Can't you just wait to see what the *next* stage will bring???????
    
    --dave--
529.11what he (.10) said!JAWS::WOOLNERPhotographer is fuzzy, underdeveloped and denseThu Nov 29 1990 15:2120
    .10> What we used to get Daniel to stay happily in the tub is not
    .10> available to you! We had one of the older kids get in with him,
    .10> and he loved it! Maybe you or Pat could get in with him?
    
    I was wondering why I had no memories of the standing-in-bathtub angst
    when I saw Dave's answer.  Of course--gee, has it been that long?--Alex
    and I took baths together.   I know, I know - talk about repeating
    tasks unnecessarily!  It all started when I discovered I needed three
    hands to wash a squirming baby, and there's no third grownup-hand in a
    single parent family.  So we climbed in together.  One of the bennies
    was that as she got older she delighted in sitting behind me and
    washing my back!
    
    I call that clinginess the "drunken monkey phase" (no relation to the
    wine-in-cooking note!), because that's what Alex acted like in the
    kitchen, swinging around and through my legs while perfecting her
    whine.  I never did find a way out of that.  Earplugs, finger-food
    appetizers and the passage of time sound to me like the best bet.
    
    Leslie   
529.12our solution to the bath problemCNTROL::STOLICNYThu Nov 29 1990 15:338
    Oh, now I do remember something that we did to alleviate the standing
    in the bath problem....we switched to bathing Jason in the kitchen
    sink!   He was much happier to be on the same level as us (more or less)
    and he surely gets more attention and playtime with us this way since
    our backs aren't breaking from all the stooping over.   This is probably
    the ONLY advantage of having a large, single bowl kitchen sink!

    cj/
529.13Our Experiences: Baths, High Chairs, CookingCSC32::DUBOISThe early bird gets wormsThu Nov 29 1990 16:1829
I don't remember what we did about the bath problem, but we may have 
bought/borrowed/invented new bath toys.  He could only play with them
while sitting down; I know this worked later, just don't remember the age
we started it.  I also learned to do the bathing early, and then just let
him play.  Otherwise he would pitch a fit if I tried to bathe him after
he was ready to get out.

As for the high chair thing, I don't remember how old Evan was before
we all got to eat together!  It was wonderful the first time that 
*Shellie and I* got to eat together,and usually that was after Evan was
in bed asleep.  When we did eat "together" then our rule was simply that
if he wanted to eat, he had to do so sitting in the high chair (or in
our laps occasionally) but he could not be standing up or running around.
When he was hungry enough, he sat and ate.  When he really wanted to be 
running/crawling around, we ate without him.  After a while you learn to
pick your fights, and to us this was as much energy as we wanted to give it.

For cooking, either I would entertain him while Shellie cooked (he didn't 
learn to play with toys alone until he was about 2), or else he would
stand up on a chair close enough to see her cooking but far enough away
to stay out of trouble.  At first I think I stood there with him to make
sure he kept safe, the chair wouldn't fall, etc.  As he got older we would
put the chair next to the counter so it wouldn't tip over, but still far
enough away from the stove to keep him safe.  Evan *loves* to cook.

I agree with Clay - your notes are great.  Perfect examples of the stages
most of our kids go through.  Remember, Steve and Pat, this, too, shall pass.
:-}
         Carol
529.14Change is the only constantPOWDML::SATOWThu Nov 29 1990 17:027
One other thing.

It IS sad when activities that were so enjoyable become times of conflict.  
But it's also true that activities that were either unenjoyable, unnotable, or 
even nonexistent become sources of great enjoyment later.

Clay
529.15US TOO!!!!VALUES::DECKERThu Nov 29 1990 21:5026
    This is SOOO weird to read all these notes about EXACTLY what we've
    been going through with Erik for about 2 months now (he just turned
    1 yr.)  And here I was thinking we were alone in this.
    
    Mealtime used to be a relaxing time to talk/giggle etc.  I don't have
    too much trouble with him in the high-chair but bottle time is
    absolutely unbearable!!!  It's not that he doesn't like it, he just
    doesn't want to sit still (my conclusion) long enough to drink it.  I'm
    lucky if I get 8-10 oz.'s of milk per day into him.  I have to make it
    up with yogurt, icecream.
    
    Bathtime isn't that bad either.  But changing him is like World War
    II!!!!!   He flips over, arches his back and basically screams like I'm
    torturing him!!  
    
    He's also very clingy.  Wants to be held alot (although he will play
    for 20-30 minutes by himself, with legal toys....)_
    
    The new game is reaching for me (so I take him) then reaching for Daddy
    (so he takes him) and on and on and on............................
    
    
    Oh well, like they say.  I guess this will pass. (I'll have to take
    everyone word for it because Erik is our 1st).
    
    Bonnie
529.16Each day is different ... thanks!SCAACT::RESENDEDigital, thriving on chaos?Thu Nov 29 1990 21:5820
    Heh, heh, heh.  Aren't kids just unpredictable?
    
    *TODAY* Mr. Michael was the picture of perfection for Pat.  Ate well,
    bathed well, slept well, did't ask *even once* to be picked up (though
    she held him lots as usual anyway).  Completely different behaviour
    than the past few weeks.  Maybe he knew he'd driven us to PARENTING!
    
    Predicting his behaviour is as easy as predicting DEC stock?!  Of
    course, tomorrow's a whole new day.
    
    Pat feels so much better since I told her everyone here has been
    through the same thing.  I really appreciate your ideas and thoughts.
    
    This is such fun!
    
    Thanks,
    Michael's _RELAXED_ Daddy
    
    PS -- yeah, he *IS* getting heavy to lug around.  But Pat's developing
    some really strong arm muscles for the first time in her life! :-)
529.17Better views up there!!MAJORS::MANDALINCIFri Nov 30 1990 10:0715
    Oh boy do I remember the start of this stage very well. I think we
    "nipped it in the bud" as soon as it started because I allowed my son
    to participate in everything I was doing. This is when all the
    non-breakable kitchen stuff went in the lower cabinets and he played
    with it during meal prep time. He also helped with the laundry and the
    cleaning (dusting, pretending to wash, etc). I think I tried to make
    him realize that he didn't have to be in my arms or on my hip to
    actually be with me. I did talk to him constantly so he felt like I
    was practically on top of him all the time. 
    
    I think they realize at this age that there are 2 worlds - the one at
    knee level and the one at your level. They want to be yours and stop
    looking at ankles!!
    
    Andrea                    
529.18 . . . the real truth of the matter . . . RDVAX::COLLIERBruce CollierFri Nov 30 1990 14:4414
    
    It's nice of all these noters to try to make you feel better, but don't
    believe what they say.  No child ever outgrows unpleasant behavior.  And
    no normal kid would act like this if his parents were raising him right.
    My guess is that you are doing something really awful, like using the 
    wrong amount of soap when you do his laundry.  And no decent collage will 
    ever accept him once the world learns that he won't sit down in the bath.
    
    		- Bruce
    
    		   . . . who has not only passed up a chance to give a
    		   sermonette on Sassy Seats, but also refrained from
    		   trumpeting the merits of taking him into the shower
    		   with you.
529.19I can't wait for the clingy stageDELNI::SCORMIERFri Nov 30 1990 15:5510
    I must have the most contrary child - David NEVER wants to be picked up
    or cuddled.  He's MUCH too busy for that mushy stuff!  The only time I
    have ever seen him the least bit clingy was last week when he had a
    virus and needed to be carried around to get to all those things he
    normally would run to himself.  He was just too uncomfortable to walk,
    so I had to play taxi.  He's approaching the big "1" next week, so
    maybe this will change???  I'm almost looking forward to him "wanting"
    to be held! 
    Sarah
    
529.20The TRUTHPOWDML::SATOWFri Nov 30 1990 16:5216
re: .18

>    My guess is that you are doing something really awful, like using the 
>    wrong amount of soap when you do his laundry.  

Very unlikely.  The most common cause of such behavior is feeding babies 
unheated formula.

Clay
              ~~~        ~~~
	       O          O

		    ^
	      \    / \	   /   <-----  BIG Smiley face
	       \          / 
	        ----------
529.21TLE::STOCKSPDSCheryl StocksFri Nov 30 1990 18:1210
re .19:
    Ah, your David sounds like my David at the same age.  (Just when I
    was starting to think I must have had the only non-clingy baby in the
    history of the universe!)  My guess is that if he hasn't been clingy
    yet, you've missed your chance.  My David is nearly 3, and the amount
    of clinging he did peaked at 9 months (it wasn't bad then) and has
    decreased pretty consistently ever since.  He does like hugs and
    lap-sitting and all that, just not for long!

						cheryl
529.22and if they're not breastfed, they don't get into Yale?TLE::RANDALLBonnie Randall SchutzmanMon Dec 03 1990 09:344
    Steven and Kat were both non-clingers, which makes my David's
    clinginess a bit of a shock even though I know it's normal.
    
    --bonnie
529.23Go Away, Mom!DELNI::SCORMIERMon Dec 03 1990 13:067
    Not only is my David not clingy, but this morning I dropped him off at
    a new babysitter and I expected him to be a little apprehensive.  I
    bent down to give him a kiss goodbye, and got his little palm in my
    face and a very decided shove!  Anybody want to share a little
    "clingy-ness" : )
    Sarah
    
529.24FDCV06::HSCOTTLynn Hanley-ScottMon Dec 03 1990 13:173
    Sigh.... yeah, we're now at the stage of "no, don't kiss me". If I do,
    he pretends to take the kiss off his cheek and give it back !:-)
    
529.25Don't Kiss Me! Take it back! ;-)CSC32::DUBOISThe early bird gets wormsMon Dec 03 1990 14:5710
<    Sigh.... yeah, we're now at the stage of "no, don't kiss me". If I do,
<    he pretends to take the kiss off his cheek and give it back !:-)
    
Ahhh, you haven't learned the *real* trick!  When you, the parent, kiss 
your child who doesn't want to be kissed, then *you* offer to take it back.
Then you make a backwards kiss on the same spot, sucking in a little air
(be sure to make noise for the sound effect).  That way, *you* get two
kisses and the kid stays happy, too!  ;-)

     Carol
529.26I *knew* this conference could pinpoint our error!SCAACT::RESENDEDigital, thriving on chaos?Mon Dec 03 1990 21:189
    Wow, Bruce ... you're a genius!  Pat did Michael's laundry on Friday
    and used Tide instead of Sears detergent, and he was the model child
    all weekend!
    
    Wonder if he'd become a prodigy if we stopped heating his bottles??
    
    (^;
    
    Steve
529.27FDCV06::HSCOTTLynn Hanley-ScottWed Dec 05 1990 14:153
    re .25
    Thanks Carol :-)
    
529.28RDVAX::COLLIERBruce CollierFri Dec 07 1990 15:2226
    In re: .23 (.24. .25)
    
    .23 > Anybody want to share a little "clingy-ness" : ) 
    					     Sarah
    
    Actually, consulting other strings in the file would make clear that
    there are PLENTY of MADs <Moms And Dads> who suffer painfully from over
    clinginess at drop-off.  I suggest lining up on opposite sides of the
    room; then on Tuesday and Thursday, everyone swap theirs for one from
    the other group who has the opposite problem.  We'll never get the kids
    to take a middle ground, but this way they'll average out for
    particular parents.  And takers?
    
    As an alternative to the anti-kiss of .24 & .25, I offer the Missed
    Kiss.  I originated this as pure silliness with Aaron at about age 2,
    before "grownup dignity" had occured to anybody.  Thusly:  with heads a
    coupl of feet apart, come rapidly together for a big Smackeroo, but
    "accidently" miss (randomly on either side) so that heads pass without
    touching at all; repeat endlessly, varying angles, sides, degree of
    miss, but with constantly building levels of surprise at failure.  Eric
    loved it too.  And he's now at the Too Grownup for Goodbye Kiss phase
    (sometimes); but, he still Loves a sequence of Missed Kisses,
    _especially_ in a public setting; and after a few of them, he's also
    delighted to have a regular kiss, too.
    
    		- Bruce
529.29Update on Michael the GrumpSCAACT::RESENDEDigital, thriving on chaos?Fri Dec 07 1990 18:3244
    Just an update...
    
    We've been trying quite a few things to make life a little more
    pleasant with our grumpy son.  Many of the things suggested here helped
    almost immediately, and Pat and I are both grateful for the advice. 
    
    For example, feeding him his dinner earlier has made a huge difference
    in his attitude.  Also, Pat has stopped trying to *feed* him table food. 
    She feeds him his baby food, and whatever finger food he has for dinner
    he eats himself.  That way he has complete control over the strange new
    substances, and seems to be far happier with that arrangement.
    
    As far as bath time goes, she finally gave up and started putting him
    in the tub outside his Stay 'n Play ring.  The ring is still there,
    suctioned to the bottom of the tub, so he can use it to hold on to if
    he wants.  Well, for exactly a week he reveled in his new-found bathtub
    freedom, lunging all over the tub for toys, etc. and creating new grey
    hairs for my wife.  But Pat just gritted her teeth, and managed to
    catch him when he slipped so he made it through the week without
    drowning.  Well lo and behold this morning she put him in the tub as
    usual, and what did he do but climb *into* the ring, sit down, and stay
    there throughout the whole bath!  I've given up trying to understand
    what goes on inside that cute, exasperating little head!
    
    The clinging has been the hardest thing to deal with, and again this
    conference came through with a wonderful suggestion.  Pat and I have
    both been trying to hold Michael as much as we possibly can, but there
    are just times when we need both hands free.  So we took someone's
    suggestion about using the Gerry backpack, and he's just happy as a
    clam in it!  Pat "wears" him on her back when she's fixing dinner if he
    complains about wanting to be held, and he can watch everything she's
    doing over her shoulder.  The Snugli was absolutely great when he was
    tiny, and we still use it on planes.  But the backpack has proved to be
    just the thing now that he's big enough to be bothered by physical
    restriction, and wearing it around the house is infinitely preferable
    to having a little ankle-biter clinging to your legs and whining.
    
    Well, life has become a little more bearable now, though Michael's
    still showing some of the same behavior described in the base note.  I
    think the best thing we got from your replies was your reassurance that
    our child isn't doing something completely outside the norm, as we
    initially thought.  Thanks again for all your help!
    
    Steve