Conference moira::parenting_v3

Hi Cheryl,

Well, I "only" have one baby and a full-time job and I don't have either
the time nor the desire to clean my house.  Hiring someone to come in and
do a full top-to-bottom cleaning every two weeks is the best thing that
I've ever done.   Now, at least my house is clean under all the clutter!
If finances permit, I'd suggest you hire a cleaning person to pick up
the slack or a mother's helper to tend to the boys while you do some
work.

The other thing that I noticed in your note is that it seems that the
house work is solely your responsibility (correct me if I'm wrong).  If
that's the case, then I think your husband could use a little "education".
Certainly it would be easier for him to do some housework after the babies
are in bed then for you to try to squeeze it in during the day.

Good luck.  I feel for you.

Carol
P.S.  I have another poem for you (I have it on a plaque in my house!):


Cleaning and dusting can wait for tomorrow
for babies grow up, we've learned to our sorrow.

So quiet down cobwebs and dust go to sleep
I'm rocking my baby and babies don't keep.

    
    Cheryl:
    
    Big hugs!!!!!!!!
    
    A 2-month old IS a fulltime job, and then add a 13-month old (probably
    walking, exploring, becoming independent ... thus several spills and
    accidents a day) ... and then add a fulltime job and a ten-year old and
    a "home" (and don't forget Hubby!) -- you have sure got an arm's full!
    
    Seems everyone I have known to hire cleaning people feel it's been a
    lifesaver!  I considered it myself, but my husband somewhat railroaded
    the idea ... he felt that the house wasn't quite "totalled" enough to
    warrant one (but I think he saw $$$ signs!).  Bottom line:  I didn't
    have to brooch the subject BUT ONCE with him and he quickly volunteered
    to take on some chores.  It wasn't an instant solution, though ... his
    standard of vacumning wasn't quite my standard of vacumning and how
    often he felt it should be done was miles from how often I thought it
    should be done ... but "together" we worked it out, Cheryl ... and
    "with time, patience, both of us moving into grey areas", it does
    eventually work itself out.
    
    I was very lucky that Jim's Mom taught him how to diaper a baby,
    wash the dishes, do a load of laundry, run a vacumn ... so I wasn't up
    against "men don't do domestics", but rather I was up against letting
    go!  LET HIM do it, accept the fact it's not going to be done perfectly
    (well, to my standard and on my terms!) ... and it's OK to have a messy
    house.  Now I can't stand "filth", but every house which has a baby,
    tyke or several kids IS CLUTTERED! ... or their Mom is one step from
    St. Elizabeth's (not sure where this place is, but my Mom used to tell
    us kids we were driving her there ...).  So it's OK to let go, it's OK
    to "ask" (not demand! -- nobody likes demands) to help (ask him which
    chores he wouldn't mind doing (even if it's bathing the kids,
    folding clothes, stuffing a dishwasher ...) every little bit sure does
    help) -- and if he doesn't want to "help", then definately clue him in
    on your thoughts of pursuing a cleaning service.  Check out your
    friends homes (who also have kids) ... this was the eye-opener for me -
    WOW! and I thought OUR house was a wreck!  (so you're not alone!)
    
    Another BIG help is if Daddy OFFERS to watch the kid(s) and suggests
    you go shopping, visit family/friends ... whatever ... on a Saturday or
    Sunday afternoon.  A few hours outside the environment sure relieves a 
    week's worth of frustrations!
    
    Or maybe HE TAKES the kid(s) out and leaves you alone so you can get
    some things done around the house.  Send him to Mom's -- she'll help him
    with the kid(s), feed them snacks, have a nice visit ... and let you
    accomplish some chores at home while sippin' a Coke and listening to
    cartoons blasting away on the TV (while scrubbing a tub!).
    
    Also, you need a few minutes EVERY DAY to relax, too.  I used to take
    20 minutes a day to read my newspaper, sip my cold Coke and R-E-L-A-X
    while JA was taking her afternoon nap.  I lived for 3:10-3:30 pm EVERY
    DAY (and God help the paperboy if he was a minute late!).
    
    Try to consider an evening alone, too.  Jim/my family have been begging
    us from Day_1 to leave JA with them and get away for a few hours
    "alone".  Only recently (JA's 14 months!) have we felt comfortable
    doing this and BELIEVE ME, we SHOULD HAVE done it much, much sooner!
    
    I know it's overwhelming ... I know how exhaustive and demanding a
    newborn can be ... and then add the other two kids, a house, a job ...
    you DO need some help, Cheryl!!  First see if you can get some
    from Hubby ... and the little extra you save can allow you a Friday
    evening dinner "alone".   It takes time to "re-synchronize" AND
    standards WILL change ... and you gotta let go ... you're right, 
    babies DON'T wait!  Try to find a grey-area both you and your husband 
    can live with and then try to work out a game plan (sharing chores, 
    he takes the kids out so you can get a handle on it ... ), whatever is 
    necessary so you can both stay sane, happy and still have time to ENJOY 
    the kids AND maintain a good relationship with your spouse.  It's ALL 
    equally important! -- you, him, each kid, a certain standard of living,
    your jobs/careers ... a mind-boggling juggling act -- "at best"! 
    
    Good luck, Cheryl  (you're not alone!),
    Dottie
    
    PS:  More hugs ...
                                                             

    Another big hug from me!!!
    
    WOW, I don't know how do you manage it!  A full-time job, a 2 month
    old, a 13 month old, a 10 year old and a hubby.  I thought I have
    my arms full (I also have a 2 month old and a 28 month old), but
    compares to you, I feel really lucky.
    
    I second the previous replies.  You need to get helps, either from
    your hubby or hire someone.  You are right, babies cann't wait.
    The house chores are much less important than spending time 
    with your family.
    
    For myself, I hired a live-in nanny.  Her work includes taking
    care the kids and some house work.  It is expensive, but I 
    cann't imagine without one.
    
    You are doing a great job.  Hang in there!
    
    Wendy   
    

    More congratulations on doing an excellent job and realizing how
    precious our babies are!!!
    
    Hire help if you can afford it. If hubby doesn't like your standards,
    insist he starts initiating some of his to help. I think I have the
    same type of hubby in my house because mine still feels that I can be
    super-woman and do it all but I'm lucky in the repsect that he supports
    the decision to get help, any type I would like. Since he travels alot,
    I can't count on him regularily to attend to a child and a house.  
    
    Irish twins are tough enough unto themselves. My sister's are 10
    months apart. She worked part-time so it was a little easier than your
    situation but I know it was extremely difficult. Do hang in there!!
    She says the first year was the toughest because you have 2 in diapers,
    2 that need to be carried, 2 that need to be fed, etc.
    
    I think the hardest part for every parent is the letting go of the
    children somewhat. With working full-time, I felt like I had to spend
    every moment not at work with my son. Looking back I wished I had been
    more reasonable with my own goals about being a working mother and
    wife. I definitely would have "allowed" myself time of my own, even if
    it was in the grocery store. I don't regret the way I have raised my
    son - I wouldn't change our relationship for anything but I'm already
    nervous about the time that he does grow up and starts to move away
    from the very special relationship. There will have to be some remorse. 
    
    You mentioned that your husband thought you were unorganized. Maybe you
    are a little and even the slightest change to your schedule could make
    you more efficient. I think I am incredibly efficient (proper usage of
    time balanced according to the tasks that need to be done). By your
    schedule I mean things like, if you throw a load of laundry in before
    you leave for work and put it in the dryer when you get home and fold
    it after the kids are asleep, the only real time out of your day is the
    folding time at night. It is little things like that that might make
    you more efficient. I'm of the belief that all husbands think their
    wives could be more efficient but that can only be attributed to the
    fact that they don't know all the things we really do. They think we
    only have 10 things to accomplish when we actually have 110.
    
    Andrea

    re .4
    
    Pardon the sidebar.
    
    PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do not leave any appliances running while you
    are not at home.  If something goes wrong, you will not be there to fix
    it.
    
    Our apartment almost burned down this weekend because the landlord
    plugged in an old refrigerator in the basement and there was an
    electrical fire.  Had he gone out for errands, we would have lost
    everything.
    
    now back to the subject...
    
    As others have said, *talk* to your husband about sharing the chores
    and setting up something that works for both of you.  If that means
    hiring a housekeeper or working part time; whatever it takes to balance
    the responsibilities.
    
    
    Judi
    
    
    
    

    I gladly offer another batch of sympathy, but also the suggestion that
    a clearer formulation of the problems might help.
    
    One aspect of it apparently is that you feel your husband is not doing
    his share of the housework.  This is a problem regardless of the state
    of cleanliness of the house, or your level of exhaustion.  I assume from 
    what you say that you are right.  But have you discussed this
    explicitly with him?  Does he have some realm of responsibility and
    effort that he perceives offsets what you do?  Does he understand how
    much time and attention little kids require?  Does he (probably
    unconsciously) think of housework as "daytime" tasks, and thus yours,
    without realizing that he in effect is expecting you to be "on duty"
    for 16 or more hours per day, versus his 8 or so?
    
    The other question is whose standards are suggesting that the house
    isn't "clean enough."  If _he_ is complaining, then you should probably
    start with a quick tour of house so he'll know where the vacuum, mop,
    and washing machine are, accompanied by the start of a discussion of
    the issues in the prior paragraph.  If _your_ standards are offended,
    or your idea of your Great Aunt Molly's standards, the problem is
    tougher, as he more likely would resist working toward standards he
    doesn't share.  And possibly part of the solution is relaxing your own
    expectations about an immaculate household.
    
    Obviously the two problems interact, but don't let that confuse the
    discussion.  One question is whether the current effort going into
    maintaining the household (in all senses) is about right, too low, or
    too high.  A quite separate issue is whether the division of labor in
    carrying out that effort is roughly fair.
    
    Your husband is probably right that you "could" get more done during
    the day if you were more "efficient."  Equally, he doubtless could get
    more (anything?) done during the evening if _he_ was more efficient. 
    It may also be that he views looking after the kids as rewarding and
    fun, and to some degree he is right.  Maybe two hours of childcare
    should "count" only as much as one hour of scrubbing the floor.  But
    that doesn't make it reasonable for him to expect you to do both these
    jobs.
    
    Probably the _best_ way (in multiple senses) to get these points across
    would be for you to take a two week vacation with a friend or favorite
    relative, leaving him and the kids behind!  If that's not practical at
    the moment, start with a good frank discussion, before his unfair
    expectations and your resentment get too deeply ingrained.
    
    		- Bruce

    
    Postscript to .6 (after reading .4) -
    
    	It's clear that your husband thinks of you as the manager in charge
    of the household, and you have pretty much accepted that.  It then
    seems clear that you in fact _are_ inefficient, in a manner common to too
    many managers:  you aren't good enough at delegating some of your
    chores and responsibilities to others!  It is a manager's prerogative
    to offload work to subordinates, in this case your husband.  If he
    resists, offer to put him in charge!  Of course, as an effective and
    sympathetic manager, you will be willing to negotiate with him over the
    details of the division of labor.
    
    		- Bruce

    If you can't afford a housekeeper, another possibility is to hire
    someone to come in and entertain the kids for an evening or part
    of the weekend while you put in intensive uninterrupted housework
    time.  
    
    Kids (either sex) in about 6-7th grades are great for this -- they
    need the money, they're mostly interested in playing, they tend to
    like kids, and since you're at home and available to help out, you
    don't have to worry about emergencies.  
    
    A neighbor of mine who has four boys does this regularly.  She
    pays another neighbor about $2 to come in and help her out -- play
    with the kids, straighten up the living room, peel potatoes, or
    whatever needs to be done that particular day.  
    
    --bonnie

    I totally understand and sympathize with your situation.  I worked
    second shift for 3 years so that I could be home with the kids, and
    save some $$$ on daycare.  My kids are now 6,3 and 11 months.  The
    situation you describe was exactly the same...I did all the housework,
    ran the kids around to school, activities, etc; and did all the errands
    required to keep the family/house functioning (like renewing licenses,
    calling repairpeople, etc).  I was even dumb enough to think that he
    couldn't manage 2 kids (the second son was 3 months when this all
    started) and cook dinner for them at the same time so I'd have a dinner
    ready to go when I left for work!
    
    Well, I've gotten much smarter in my "old age".  I had to learn that
    _he_ WAS fully capable of handling the kids, he just didn't know it.  I
    also had to learn that if I asked (key word is ask, not TELL) him to do
    something, and was very specific, it would be done.  This is especially
    true if you have previously discussed (and agreed upon) priorities and
    he understands why you want/need this done.  And finally, realize that
    you are a people, too, and deserve ...(read NEED)... time for yourself.
    
    Find someone to do the cleaning for you at least every other
    week...you can find the $$$ when you finally realize how much better
    you will feel; and then the interim "pick-ups" aren't such a big deal
    anymore!
    
    Set up a schedule for yourself of what time is to be spent with the
    kids and what time is yours for housework, and what time is for you
    alone (best if you get all in napping at once...not so difficult when
    you decide to do it).  The children need time to play on their own and
    amuse themselves, and will not mind it if they know that Mommy will
    spend time with them later.  Get a book on crafts and other activities 
    so that they will look forward to this time. 
    
    Finally, and I know that this sounds silly, you might want to consider
    that your husband is jealous of the kids and the time they get with
    you.  He probably doesn't really understand this either.  13 months ago
    he had to share you with another little being that eats up most of your
    time and almost all your energy.  Prior to this you were his, and you
    weren't tired, or grouchy, or trying to get him to do housework.  Now
    you aren't even home at night, and he is LONELY!  Now he can't go out
    with his buddies after work for a drink to celebrate anything because
    he must be home with the babies.  
    
    The "discussions" involving the housework, and time management, etc.
    are not the problem, they are a symptom.  I've been there.  The best
    answer to all this is to talk to eachother, alone, when you aren't
    tired or angry.  Hire a regular sitter for Saturday night, EVERY
    SATURDAY NIGHT, and go out together.  These dates must be planned, and
    there is to be no discussion of house, kids, bills.  This is a time for
    the two of you to be together and enjoy eachother for the reasons you
    got together in the first place.  
    
    If you want to discuss more, send me mail directly.  I know this is the
    toughest time for you both, but it will get better.  Just keep in touch
    with your husband, don't let yourselves drift apart, filling the void
    with the anger and frustration of your situation.
    
    Laura

Cheryl,
    (My golly, there are a lot of us Cheryl's in this conference these days!
    I think we've overtaken the Bonnie's and Kate's!)

    I am in full agreement with you on putting the kids first.  My own
    priorities are roughly:
	1. family
	2. work
	3. my own time (reading, having a cup of tea, etc.)
	...
	5000. housework

    Family and work are basically at equal priority, with family only needing
    to take precedence in rare circumstances (sick child, for instance).

    I am astonished at how much you're doing.  2 months after having a baby,
    your physical stamina is probably not back up to your normal level yet,
    (mine sure wasn't), and I hope you are getting enough rest to keep
    healthy (can you tell I'm a mother?).  Any pregnancy and delivery makes a
    lot of physical demands on you, as does nursing (if you're doing that),
    not to mention interrupted sleep at night.  Make sure your (and your
    husband's) expectations of what you're capable of right now are
    realistic.  My younger son is 5 months old now, and I still find that my
    physical stamina is improving, which I believe means I'm not yet quite
    back up to pre-pregnancy level.  Do consider letting the "squeaky-clean"
    house slide for a few more months.  Your whole family benefits if you're
    taking good care of yourself, physically and emotionally.

    And if you ever need a "see, other people's houses look *much* worse"
    example to show your husband, let me know and I'll send you a photo of
    my kitchen and living room.
				cheryl

    Thank you for sharing that beautiful poem...
    
    I do hope that things improve.  
    
    P.S. An after thought... maybe your husband feels a little "excluded"
    by the strength of motherly feelings that are in the poem ?  I know
    some of my friends have felt I excluded them to be "with" my daughter;
    and I have to admit it is true _she_ is my number one priority. (I
    don't have a husband to worry about ! - so on that score I am luckier
    than some)

    I would like to thank everyone for all the hugs, support, and
    suggestions. I can't believe how blind I've been. So many of you hit
    the nail right on the head. After reading all of your reply's, I
    realized what I was trying to do is almost impossible. Notes .2, .6,
    and .9 saw exactly what was happening.
      Dotty, you are right. I wasn't letting go. I wasn't happy with the
    way he was doing things so I would do them over. I never gave him a
    chance to prove himself and it was driving us both crazy!!
      Bruce. I took your advice and went away to my Mom's for the weekend.
    I left Friday night after work, and came back Sunday night. Hank (my
    husband) had no idea how demandang the two little ones are all day. He
    even had Ben to help him out. (A privilege I don't have because Ben is
    in school when  I'm on duty!!) Hank has a new respect for motherhood!!
    When I walked in the door, I almost felt bad for him. Do you remember
    when Mt. St. Helens erupted? Well it happened again, but this time in
    my house! As soon as I walked in the door he called out "Honey, is
    that you?". I said "It's me." Then I heard him say "Thank god!!"
    I got a big kiss, a big hug, and with tears in his eyes, he apologized
    and promised to have the house spotless every night when I get home
    from work. I know that end of the bargain will eventually dwindle away,
    but at least he knows what a day in the life of motherhood is all
    about.
    It was the best thing I ever did. If things get too bad, ever again, all
    I'll have to do is drop hints that I'm going away and I'm sure things
    will change!!
      Laura. I have a date with Hank for Saturday night! He arranged for my
    Mom to come down and stay with the kids. I have no idea where he's
    taking me, but he told me to dress up, so it should be good!!
      I can not thank everyone enough for all your support.
      I can actualy laugh at things again because I'm not all stressed
    out!! 
     						Cheryl      

What a nice note, Cheryl!  Thanks for the update!

      Carol

    
    Great!