Conference moira::parenting_v3

    The spitting up sounds fairly normal to me.  Some babies are just real
    spitty.  My older son spit up all the time until he was around 9 months
    old.  Every picture of him as a small baby shows him wearing a bib - he
    had one on nearly around the clock because of all the spitting up.  I
    attribute it at least partly to the way he ate - gulped everything down
    as fast as possible, so he got a fair amount of air with it.  If your
    daughter's a fast eater also, this may be contributing to the spitting up.
    My second son (now 4 months old) eats at a more leisurely pace ("the
    world's slowest eater" is my term for him, actually - it used to take him
    typically an hour and a half per feeding!), and rarely spits up at all.
    
    On weight gain - their weight gain does slow down as they get older.
    I think David gained a pound a week for the first 8 weeks, then 1/2 pound
    a week for the next couple of months, then a pound a month for the
    rest of his first year.  Something like that.  Those are high numbers
    (he was big!!), but the idea that the weight gain is less as the baby
    gets older is typical.

    At this age, my belief is that if they are eating well, sleeping well,
    not overly fussy, and generally healthy, then you don't need to worry
    about exactly how much they eat or how much weight they gain.  The spitting
    up is very messy (hint - mix a thick paste of baking soda and water and rub
    it in the spit-up spots on clothes, etc. - I find that really does a good
    job of getting rid of the odor, and you don't have to change the baby's
    clothes (or your own) fifty times a day), but it doesn't mean anything's
    wrong.

	cheryl

    It sounds like our first son, and your daughter are identical!
    He, too, didn't spit up at first, but began sometime around 2 mos. (if
    memeory serves right!). That was in late October. My wife and I went a
    whole winter never wearing any of our wool sweaters, because this kid
    spit up anytime you looked at him, and we got pretty sick of
    handwashing them every 3 hours! Seriously, your daughters wieght gain
    sounds perfectly normal....11 lbs. at 10 weeks is fine. They do often
    experience something of a growth spurt at around 3 mos., so she may do
    that. If so, watch for crankiness around feeding time, more frequent
    feedings and/or wanting more at each feeding. The amount she is taking
    sounds perfectly normal, too.
    
    Not to be discouraging, but Joshua (the spitter) also progressed to
    throwing up at the drop of a hat later in life...any sign or symptom of
    illness was always accompanied by throwing up. Wears *real* thin after
    a while. At 5 yrs. old , he is outgrowing this, finally. Our daughter
    rarely spit up, and, at 3.5, has only thrown up once in her life. Our
    youngest son, spit up moderately, and has trhown up only once, too.
    Can't wait to see what #4 will be like!
    
    I'd rest easy if I were you...sounds perfectly normal to me!
    
    --dave--

    Sound normal to me too. RJ (now 2 1/2) used to drink his bottle, then
    SPIT UP - I mean, you had to get out of the way - but it was over with.
    Jaclyn, 6 months, gulps down her bottle, then spends the next 3 hours
    spitting it up a little at a time!! Really nice the other day while I
    waited 3 hours to have their pictures taken at Sears - by the time we
    got in for their turn, we'd gone through 3 bibs and another outfit!!
    
    Two things I've found:  First, try not to jostle the baby too much for
    at least 1/2 hour after the bottle - hard for Jaclyn since RJ is
    usually finding some new way to "hug baby" (good thing she weighs 18
    pounds, having an older 30 pound brother "hug" you by slamming his
    body on you can take it's toll!)  
                             And second, if you take a baby wipe
    immediately to the stain, the smell and the stain will come out! Too
    bad I didn't learn this trick until baby #2!!
    
    FWIW - I've also tried switching Jaclyn to Soy formula, seemed to help
    the spit up situation a little, but she got constipated - I'd rather
    have the spit up!!!
    
    Have fun and weight till you add teething drool to spit up!!!
    
    Meg

    A lot of times spitting up can be caused by bubbles of air
    swallowed with the milk, and then trapped there.  When the bubble
    rises to the top (as air will do since it's lighter than formula)
    it brings formula with it.  The more air swallowed, and the more
    milk on top of it, the more the mess. 
    
    Try burping her during the feeding.  If she's a gulpy feeder, do
    it earlier, otherwise about halfway through. 
    
    Lie her down on her back on your lap and talk to her for half a
    minute or so. This lets the bubble shift from the bottom of her
    stomach to the front.  Then gently roll her up against your
    shoulder (make sure to have a towel or a folded diaper or
    something there to catch any spitup).  
    
    I used to have to burp Steven about four times during a feeding. 
    He wouldn't spit up, he'd just cry as the air bubble passed
    through his little tummy . . . and some kids simply won't stand
    for being interrupted.  David was one of them; fortunately he was
    a slow, tidy eater.
    
    Some babies do better if they sit in the baby carrier for half an
    hour or so after eating, rather than lying down or playing.  The
    angle helps the bubble rise more slowly and bring less milk.
    
    Since she wasn't having this problem while breastfeeding, you
    might also want to make sure the nipple and bottle are working
    properly.  Most nipples need to be screwed on just snug, not too
    tight, so that air can get into the bottle while the baby's
    feeding.  And experiment with the hole size.  If it's flowing
    faster than she can handle, she may gulp air from drinking too
    fast, and if the hole is too small, she may be sucking in air from
    working so hard to get the milk through.  
    
    --bonnie

    I second Bonnie's comment about the hole being the right size. When my
    son started to want to increase his food intake, he would try to drink 
    faster. Consequently, he would gulp air and spit up. We did have some
    impressions of "The Exorist"!!!! We got nipples with larger holes or
    made a larger hole ourselves (a bit tricky because you can go to far
    and drown the poor kid) and it seemed to help A LOT!! 
    
    My son was on a soy formula and breast milk so switching to soy may
    have no impact. Consult your pedi on that one.
    
    Don't worry - just wear a lab coat when you feed her!!
     
    Andrea

    
    JA was a very colicy baby.  Since she was adopted, she was always a
    bottle baby (although I was told her mother did breastfeed her in the
    hospital) ... We entered "her" life on the fifth day.
    
    What we found was that Pedi's aren't "quick" to change formulas.  Our
    Pedi also believed that all babies had to "learn" to tolerate non-Mom
    milk ... some adjust sooner and better than others.
    
    But as the weeks passed, we, too, weren't seeing ANY improvement in JA.
    Finally, at 3 am, after being "hit" for the sixth time that day ... I
    remember craddling JA in the rocking chair, both of us smelling like
    garbage disposals and just plain bawling my eyes out.  I'd say it was
    about the 6th week.  I rehashed everything the Pedi told me (it's OK
    because she's gaining weight - consistently and good amounts - it's
    spitup and not vomit, just give her a couple ounces at a time - don't
    push a lot onto her ... lots of burbs ... blah, blah, blah).  BUT, 
    he's wasn't here with us now, awake for the upteenth time, having
    been spitup on for the sixth time, exhausted, feeling guilty and
    questioning what more "I" can do.
    
    What the "what more I can do" was research the problem.  Get some
    answers.  What I found out was:  different brands of formula have
    different consistencies (e.g. SMA is VERY thick, while Emfamil is very
    watery).  It's better to switch to a watery-formula than to dilute
    the thicker ones (because you're diluting the nutrients, etc.).
    Some babies will NEVER drink 8 oz. in one sitting (JA's now 14 months
    old and STILL doesn't drink 8 oz.!).  It's better to switch to a
    product made by the same manufacturer (eg SMA -> Isomil ... I think
    they're made by the same company).
    
    Juice will often sour their stomach.  So ... don't combine the two too
    closely together (keep them 3-4 hours apart).
    
    Every kid is DIFFERENT!  What works for mine may not work for yours!
    
    After JA "exploded" in Jim's office -- nailed him, his desk, his
    workstation cpu, his keyboard, his CARPET, his chair, her swing,
    HERSELF ... "I" decided to switch JA to soybean.  My research project
    said it was just as good as a lactose-based formula ... but they're not
    getting lactose.  If the child doesn't have the ensyme to digest
    lactose, this is the best you can do for them.  However, if the child
    is lactose-tolerant, you may be delaying their ability to learn to
    tolerate lactose.  
    
    I got desperate and just said "that's IT!", bought the Isomil, switched
    over immediately and found a BIG improvement (almost immediate!).
    
    I also learned the HARD WAY that the pre-mix formula is much thicker
    than the "mix-it-yourself" formula (same brand!).  We were running late
    for an adoption/attorney meeting, stopped at CVS, got pre-mixed Isomil,
    filled her bottle and WE ALL WORE IT ... including the car!  What a
    mess and we HAD TO TURN BACK!  I thought I had the problem solved and
    now this!  What could possibly be different?  Jim compared the two
    (premix vs. mix-your-own) ... BIG difference in consistency!
    
    At her next Pedi appointment, Pedi questioned if she was handling the
    formula any better and I said "yes, MUCH better! ... we switched her to
    Isomil" ... and he said "if it's working, than that's great ... stay
    with it".
    
    I dreaded the day when we'd be switching her over to "whole milk". 
    Around her eight month the Pedi said we could "start mixing a little
    whole milk in her formula" at the end of her eighth month (and NO
    sooner!).   Well, once we started it (10% milk, 90% formula ... then
    20% milk, 80% formula ...), we found it didn't phase her one-ion!
    I think we had one, maybe two, setbacks, stepped back ONE step, tried
    again and then forged forward.  By her tenth month she was on whole
    milk ... NO problems!
    
    JA must still be semi-lactose-intolerant, as she can't digest yogurt
    or ice cream ... but she handles cheese products just fine.  So we try
    something "in small amounts" ... increase the "amounts" ... find the
    limit ... step back ... maintain for a while ... and then try another
    step forward ... and then another step ...
    
    JA's weight gain was:  6 lb 3 oz at birth
                           5 lb 11 oz in hospital
                           6 lb 2 oz on discharge (5th day)
                           9 lb. 3 oz - 1st month checkup
                          12 lb. 3 oz.- 2nd month checkup
                          15 lb. 3 oz.- 3rd month checkup
                          18 lb. ...  - 6th month checkup
                          19'ish lb   - 9th month checkup
                          20+ lb      - 1 year checkup
                          still hasn't broken 21 lb at 14 months!
    
    ... see how numbers become unimportant "with time"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I only remember the above because of all the "3's" and differences of
    "3's"!
    
    I can't tell you what to do.  I can say it can be the "pits"!  You
    never know when she'll erupt (church, store, special events, ALWAYS at
    the photographers and NEVER in the Pedi's office!).  You can bet that
    she'll not only cover herself, but will always manage to nail you, too,
    even if you duck, run or turn into pretzel formation ... they have 
    terrific aim, even at moving objects!  You become an expert at getting
    formula stains/smells out of everything .. including hair, ears,
    furniture, floors, AND off the family pet (who's come to the rescue to
    clean up the floor!) ...
    
    this is getting too gross ... even for a Friday!
    
    So good luck ... but remember, "it, too, WILL pass in time"!!!!!
    
    Dottie
                          

    Thanks for all the replies.  I feel better just knowing that so many of
    you consider this to be normal.  I'll have to make a note about how to
    clean up after her.  The smell does tend to stay on furniture and
    clothes.
    
    I'm still not sure about switching formulas, but will consult my pedi
    on that one.  And we're going to the photographer's tomorrow for the
    first time - I put it off because it was impossible to keep her clean
    for any period of time. I guess we'll just buy more bibs.
    
    Mary

    What about the fact that maybe your feeding her too soon???
    
    My son in the same age, an when I was feeding him every two to
    three hours the Pedi told me I had to push out his feedings to
    every fours hours.  This was no easy task, but two weary weeks
    later it was accomplished and he seemed to be doing much better.
    
    Now I notice the only time he really spits up alot is when he 
    isn't feeling well.   He is a fast eater, an drinks 5 ozs in
    15 min. I just have to make sure I burp him really good through
    out that 15 min.
    
    -julie

    RE: .6
    
    Dottie, that had to be the funniest reply.  I printed it out so
    I could bring it home for Steve to read because I could relate 
    wholeheartedly.  Shane spits up a whole lot too.  One day we decided
    that we were going to take him with us to go out to eat.  Well, we
    just get seated and Steve picks up Shane to take his jacket off, and 
    wouldn't you know it, Shane spits up all over Steve's lap.  Steve had 
    black dress slacks on and was totally embarrased because we went for
    the buffet and he had to get up to go get his food.
    
    Also, I've never had a problem getting formula stains or smells
    out of clothes.  I spray the stains with Amway's Pre-wash and then
    I fill the kitchen sink with water, add a 1/4 cup of Amway's Tri-zyme,
    throw the clothes in and let them soak for about 15 minutes then
    take them out and wash them in the machine and the stains are gone.
    One time my sitter-in-law's mother was watching Shane and he spit up
    all over him self, she took off his clothes and put them in a plastic
    bag (without rinsing them out first).  When I went to pick him up, she 
    couldn't find the bag.  I ended up not getting the bag with his
    clothes back until 5 days later.  When I opened the bag, the clothes
    were covered with mold.  I tried the above method and it worked,
    all the stains were gone.
    
    Lori B.

    The first thing I thought of reading your message was REFLEX.  I to
    breastfeed my daughter then put her onto Nursoy (Soy formula vs. Milk).
    After one month of breastfeeding and another month on formula, Katie
    developed a pneomonia.  After testing they found she asparated into
    her lung.  She was diagnosed as a baby with reflex - which means, 
    spitting up with each feeding.  They put her on Reglan....  THe doctor
    said as magically as it appeared it would disapear in 6 - 9
    months..Sure enough at 7 months it was gone no more spitting up.  The
    doctor told me that reflex is very common in little girls..  
    Good luck - I hope everything works out for you

re .10, see also topic 406, "Reflux?"

I've read this note and wondered if others had a problem with throw-up as
opposed to spit up.  Rachel throws up her milk about once a week.  At first it
happend when we tried to change her too soon after feeding so we thought that
was that.  Then she started doing it while eating.  We try to burp her after
every 1 or 2 ounce (depending on whether she lets us) but that does not seem to 
be the problem.  She seems really happy afterwards but somehow it still bothers
me.  I brought her into the doctors about 2 weeks after her 2 week checkup and
she had gained a pound so the pedi said she was ok and not to worry since it
is infrequent (only to her!).  I was wondering is others had similar experience
and whether it is just something that she will grow out of.  I asked if it had
anything to do with the fact that her formula is fortified with iron since I've
heard that some babies don't take iron well and the pedi said to leave her with
the same formula unless her throwing up increases to everyday.  Rachel is about
8 weeks now and my mother told me she threw up this morning! I'd appreciate any
insight!

(makes me wonder how my parents brought up 5 children!)

         My son does the same thing.  I kept thinking I figured it out too.
    You know, the changing of the diaper too soon.  Not burping enough.
    Formula too cold.  Formula too warm.  His medicine for his ear
    infection.  Jiggling him too much while burping him.  You name it.  The
    list goes on and on.  Once he was throwing up once a day for a whole
    week and I was frantic.  He luckily had a doctor's appt. then and the
    doctor didn't seem to think that once  a day was a lot if you can
    believe that?!!!!  He seems to be EXTREMELY happy after he does it and
    I can usually feed him another entire bottle after he does it.  ( I
    asked and his pedi said it was ok if he wanted more afterward to give
    it to him.)  Everytime I think we've got it licked and he isn't going
    to do it anymore, he does it again.  In fact, he did it this morning.
    I guess all I can tell you is that it MAY be just one of those things.
    My pedi seems to think that as long as he doesn't seem to be ill, is
    gaining weight, and doesn't do it ALL THE TIME, then there is no
    problem.  My son is now 12 weeks and he does this very same thing at
    least once a week.  Beats me.  Maybe someone else out there has a
    better explanation why.
    
    
                                ---Sue.

    My son threw up after every feeding for about 6 months (and I mean
    THREW up after EVERY feeding).  Then reduced to spitting up after every
    bottle for about 6 more months.  At 18 months, he will still spit up a
    little if he drinks  a large glass of liquid and runs right off. When
    he was little (that first 6 months) I used to burp him near the sink,
    with him facing it.  I knew he'd toss it, and it made clean up much
    easier.  His pedi was never concerned, since he gained weight at a
    normal rate and did not have any other signs of distress.  
    Sarah
    

I'm glad to hear others have the same experience.  re: .13 Rachel also seemd 
extremely happy afterwards also.  I'm also glad to hear that your pedi said
it was ok to feed afterwards because most of the time it happens towards the
end of the feeding so we just don't continue and it seems to be ok with her.
Sometimes though it happens towards the beginning and she seems very hungry
still and we've never even asked the pedi but we feed her and it seems as if
nothing happened and she takes the milk.  The other day I got advice from 
someone saying I shouldn't feed formula right after but feed glucose water so
I was worried that I shouldn't so you're saying its ok then I have another 
choice since Rachel doesn't really like water unless she's desparate.  Re: .14
luckily we haven't had to resort to the sink yet since she doesn't throw up that
often and it is not predictable either.  We have however moved the feedings
into the kitchen now that the carpet and sofa in the living room has been hit
enuf for us to know better now! Although it is comforting to know there is 
nothing wrong, it sure makes you think twice about bringing them anywhere that
would involve a feeding!

BTW, when Rachel throws up it usually goes at least 1 to 2 feet away (which
makes it hard to try to catch) does yours?

         My son, when he does throw up  and not spit up, profects a good 1
    to 2 feet.  The week that he was throwing up at least once a day it was
    going a lot farther than that.  I mean the kid was actually vomiting
    with such force it was making a splat sound when it hit the wall. 
    That's pretty scary.  
    
         Please let me say that I don't KNOW that everything is ok with him
    or with you either for that matter.  Don't get me wrong.  At this point
    my pedi says there is no problem and doesn't seem concerned at all but
    that doesn't necessarily mean that there COULDN'T be something wrong. 
    He didn't say that.  I just don't want you to think that I am telling
    you that everything is aok and then have something actually be wrong. 
    And, as far as feeding the baby after he vomits, just because me pedi
    said it was ok maybe you ought to ask yours anyway.  I find that they
    all differ in their opinions.  I sort of figured that it would be ok
    anyway since he didn't seem sick. I just sort of figured he threw up
    for some other reason and, if he still seememd hungry, why not feed him
    again.  It's worked out fine so far.
    
         What I'd like to know from all of you out there who have babies
    that do this all the time is, how in the world can they chuck up every
    meal and still gain weight?!!!  I don't get it.

    They gain weight because they don't chuck up the entire meal
    unless they keep vomiting until they're tossing up stomach fluid. 
    Otherwise, they aren't likely to have lost more than half of what
    they eat, usually less.  
    
    The most likely cause -- and don't take this as a diagnosis, just
    as something to bring up with your own pediatrician if you think
    might apply to your babies -- is mild reflux, which is a weakness
    of the esophagal muscle that holds the contents of the stomach in
    the stomach.  This can range from very mild, which is what my
    daughter has (periodic vomiting, mostly from getting jostled
    around or eating too large a meal) to so serious the baby can't
    eat.  Those require surgical repair. 
    
    There are tests that can be done to confirm whether a particular
    baby has reflux.  When Kat was little the only test available
    involved barium and x-rays, so the risk of the test was way higher
    than the minimal problems she was having keeping food down.  The
    new tests are much quicker and safer. I think some of the noters
    in here have children who have been through those tests and can
    tell more about them.  
    
    Individual pediatricians vary in how much they worry about
    it and how much they want a confirmed diagnosis, but the working
    rule most of them seem to use is as long as your baby is keeping
    down enough food to gain weight and is otherwise healthy, there's
    no need to worry. 
    
    Our doctor recommended more frequent, smaller meals.  When the
    reflux is moderate, stomach acid can get into the esophagus,
    causing irritation, which in turn increases the likelihood of
    vomiting.  One of the drugs they'll use to treat reflux is an
    acidity-reducer that helps the esophagus heal.
    
    One thing I did learn from Kat -- don't force a kid to eat so much
    as one bite more than what she wants.  If that one bite was the
    one that pushed her muscles past what they could hold, up it would
    come.  This still happens now that she's 17, only she can tell
    when she's had enough and can stop eating in time.  But sometimes
    she'll overeat, or exercise too soon after eating, and still toss
    her dinner. 
    
    --bonnie

    When my twins were born some six years ago, my daughter I remember used
    to spit up at almost every meal.  Sometimes it would be just a little
    spit up over my shoulder and down my back.  Other times she'd really
    have at it and let it go!  Used to scare the dickens out of me,
    particularly because her brother did none of that.  He'd eat his 4
    ounces done, give us a burp, and sit contentedly.  After checking with
    the pediatrician on this and being reassured that babies did this quite
    frequently, I also wondered how on earth they ever gained weight with
    all this throwing up business.  One thing the pediatrician told me was
    that it may look like the baby is throwing up everything you've just
    given her but in fact you have to remember that the baby has a lot of
    digestive juices, saliva etc that comes up with what they're trhrowing
    up, so they really are keeping down a lot of what you're giving them.  
    
    She eventually grew out of it, though it took many weeks, and a
    constant supply of diapers and towels over the shoulder.  Actulaly I
    never carried her anywhere without something thrown over one or both
    shoulders.  I never handed her to anyone without first draping them
    with a couple of dipers or kitchen towels "just in case".  I remember
    getting dressed for work then throwing my bathrobe on over my work
    clothes to feed them "just in case".  It paid off many times.
    
    As long as you check with your pediatrician, and watch your baby for
    anything out of the ordinary, I'd say this is just something you'll
    have to wait out.